MARK-a theory under construction, please comment

[Live True]

MARK-Martial Arts Related Knowledge

I've been mulling over some things I'm currently learning and practicing, as well as some things I've read here and elsewhere. I put my thoughts together in the following visual manner and would be very interested in what folks have to say and add to these thoughts. Please keep in mind I still consider myself very much a beginning student on the path to processing and organizing her thoughts and concepts...so if this is over simplistic or obvious to some, then please point me in a direction to grow...thank you.

The basic idea is simply how I currently relate four core concepts in any combat situation. I look forward to a good discussion and the opportunity to learn from the many opinions and thoughts here!

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/livetruesm/Uechi/epiphany.jpg

[Carol]

I like it!!

[Xue Sheng]

http://www.northernshaolinacademy.com/new/images/NsaHsingIFiveElements.jpg

Xingyiquan


http://www.crystalinks.com/13postures.jpg

Taijiquan

[Blindside]

You are very analytical and would probably get along great in the watchmaker world of kenpoists. :D

I think that you need to turn this into a 3d pyramid with the addition of a fifth factor of "power," and possibly a hexagon with the addition of "environment" though that could possibly be mixed with "distance."

I think your concept of speed needs to be defined beyond velocity, because you seem to be using it more like "awareness" with its links to precision and distance.

Nice model, though I think you are pushing some relationships with the current definitions.

[K831]

I like it and I like where you are going with it. I think there are several "exercises" you could do with what you already have, that may help you increase your perspective.

For example, the diagram, as you have it now, looks as though all 4 aspects are happening simultaneously. How would you construct the diagram if you did it in a flow-chart style? Try to place an order to things? Also, the four elements you have diagramed are physiological aspects of an altercation. What would their psychological counterparts be, and how would that fit into the diagram as it related to precision, speed etc? Something like "perceptual speed" which after all, is what makes the fastest fighters so fast.

The core principles you have diagramed can also be placed within a specific framework of a particular style. For instance, (I don’t know what you study so I’ll use what I know) these core aspect you identified correspond with Kenpo's; economy of motion, directional harmony and angles of efficiency, or JKD concepts like longest weapon, nearest target. The art may create a more specific frame work because concepts like "directional harmony" or "longest weapon, nearest target" give a functional basis for how that practitioner generates "speed" or controls "distance".

Just some thoughts.

[shihansmurf]

I think that you're on to something absolutely brilliant with this. I approve wholeheartedly.

:)


Mark

[Live True]

Thank you all!

Carol and Mark...um..blush..thank you! Grin...needs more work, but I appreciate the support and encouragement!

Xue, VERY cool! I like the elemental balances and yin yang of create/destroy, rest/arousal, yielding/strong. There's a lot of things to consider in those diagrams!

Blindside, I still think there is an element of simply "doing" that cannot and should not be captured in such a diagram, but I was playing with these concepts in my head and they simply seemed to click together in a very interesting way that I wanted to put into a format I could look at in one place. So..thank you? (I detect a bit of sardonic wit in your response, and I'm not sure exactly where it's aimed).
In my mind I was toying with the concept of a 3-d model but I was looking at connecting it to the 3 conflicts of body/mind/will. Power brings us back to more of a physical..or physics...construct....but it is an important concept. I just don't know how much I can fit into one model and still keep it's integrity...worth considering.
I think you hit on something important with the definitions, particularly with speed. Velocity was the closest I could come up with on first pass, but clearly it's not capturing the whole idea...hmmmmm. Again, this is a theory under construction...so let me ponder your feedback and work on it some more.

K831, Hmmmm...I'm not sure I'd want to do this in a flow chart style as confrontations happen so quickly that many of these decisions should be going on either simultaneously or very close together. I also think...although I am not personally to this point yet...that some of these decisions should happen "automatically" as a result of repetitive practice and sparring. For example, some of the predictive qualities between precision and timing are a result of reading your opponent, but some of them would also be a result of practice the most likely scenarios of how people naturally react....at least in theory. Learning the proper distances to connect yoru striking surfaces to the target should also naturally flow from practice and repetition, as (hopefully) the length of your own arms/legs shouldn't change too drastically. your right...several exercises and ideas to play with in practice and partner work.....
I hadn't considered the psychological aspects, but that would certainly affect one's perspective and reaction times. I'm not sure I have enough personal experience and knowledge to cover those ideas yet...but it's a great thing to consider as I work on this concept!
As to style, I am a Uechi practitioner; however, my current sensei also has considerable Aikido experience and that definately flavours my training. I also have some (very) limited sword fighting experience through a historical recreation group in my recent past.
Actually, I'm trying to stay away from locking this into a specific style's framework and develop something that relates more to related concepts that flow through all MA. It's a personal quirk of mine that I like to see how variations on a theme share similar core principles...it's just in how you look at it that differs. Thanks for the feedback!

Interesting feedback I've gotten elsewhere is that this model is more reactive than proactive. I'm not 100% sure I agree..but it's yet another thing I'm considering....this is pretty cool and fun! Thank you all for helping me grow and learn!

[mwd0818]

...
Interesting feedback I've gotten elsewhere is that this model is more reactive than proactive. I'm not 100% sure I agree..but it's yet another thing I'm considering....this is pretty cool and fun! Thank you all for helping me grow and learn!

First, I really like this. Second, I think I do agree with your other feedback - the model, at this point, is more reactive. How could it be changed to make it more proactive and controlling of a defensive situation?

After 20+ years in the arts, it is exercises like this from students such as you that make me love coming back to it. :)

[Live True]

Wow....feedback like that Marcus can make a girl's head swell!

Seriously, I have been looking at this model more after that feedback, and I'm starting to see more of what you and they are saying. Right now,i's all about predicting where the other person will be or will do and moving to meet them. I think I need to look more at including considerations that would make your opponent move/react to you, control the space/environment, and end the engagement quickly.

Again...this will take some processing time, but I'm getting some wonderful feedback to consider and work with.

Thank you!

[celtic_crippler]

I think your head's in the right place.

Visual aids are very important in our attempt to understand and apply the concepts and principles behind our actions.

I would challenge you to keep this model you've created and routinely go back and review it at different intervals throughout your training.

Keep a notes page along with it and see how you view it 3-6 months down the road and note how your perceptions and/or thoughts on it may have changed.

Develop the model and allow for it to evolve as your understanding grows. In a couple of years it will be pretty cool to go back and look at your notes and models to see how you and your understanding of the art have evolved. :)

[Daniel Sullivan]

I like the model. Some abstracts, such as awareness, can be generated by it as well. Other things could be factored in, but its simplicity is part of its strength.

Daniel

[Blindside]

Blindside, I still think there is an element of simply "doing" that cannot and should not be captured in such a diagram, but I was playing with these concepts in my head and they simply seemed to click together in a very interesting way that I wanted to put into a format I could look at in one place. So..thank you? (I detect a bit of sardonic wit in your response, and I'm not sure exactly where it's aimed).


Not at you, certain branches of the kenpo tree have a reputation for over analyzing things, to the point where the term "analysis paralysis" has been added to the already large lexicon. Conceptual devices such as this can be an important aid to those who are visually oriented, and simply the effort of designing it is going to be a great benefit to you and your approach/concepts of an encounter.

And as a suggestion, you might try rearranging this into a Venn diagram that would give you the opportunity to weight the different relationships, as these may not all be equivelant.

[Live True]

Not at you, certain branches of the kenpo tree have a reputation for over analyzing things, to the point where the term "analysis paralysis" has been added to the already large lexicon. Conceptual devices such as this can be an important aid to those who are visually oriented, and simply the effort of designing it is going to be a great benefit to you and your approach/concepts of an encounter.

And as a suggestion, you might try rearranging this into a Venn diagram that would give you the opportunity to weight the different relationships, as these may not all be equivelant.

Thanks for the clarification and explanation. Not practicing that style, I wasn't aware of that branch. I like to play with concepts in my head, but I certainly find such visual aids useful.

I especially like Celtic's suggestion of referring back to this over time.

As to the Venn diagram (after rustling through the college psych and bio notes in my brain)...that could be a useful exercise as well!

And Daniel...thanks for reminding me not to try to incorporate too much into it at one time. the K.I.S.S. principle DOES have it's charm. I'm wondering if I can put this together in a modular way that has a few concepts that interconnect.....(she says WISHING she wasn't at work and could devote some time to simply playing with these ideas without interruption!).

I am SO enjoying this exchange of thoughts/ideas!!!

[xJOHNx]

Good stuff, good stuff
Was thinking about it during the day while riding trains and busses.

One feature that I find not back though, self realisation..
All these elements combined together give the artist a better way of handling his body as well as his mind (repressing fear, staying cool in hot situations)..

Maybe this is to esoteric for the model, still brilliant stuff though.

Should time be included to reach certain steps of the model? Like the horizontal and vertical bar, divided up in a scale.. Indication that not everything comes by itself? I don't know, the model is awesome. Reminds me of certain psychology tests.

[mwd0818]

Wow....feedback like that Marcus can make a girl's head swell!

Seriously, I have been looking at this model more after that feedback, and I'm starting to see more of what you and they are saying. Right now,i's all about predicting where the other person will be or will do and moving to meet them. I think I need to look more at including considerations that would make your opponent move/react to you, control the space/environment, and end the engagement quickly.

Again...this will take some processing time, but I'm getting some wonderful feedback to consider and work with.

Thank you!

Well, compliments deserved should be given. :) So keep it up.

And you are on the exact right track and I think a path of more advanced students - control the situation and regain initiative is difficult, but once done, solidifies your defense in ways that simply reacting and predicting where your opponent will be just can't.

Keep it up!

:asian:

[Live True]

John & Marcus..thank will comment when I have more time and have considered your thought/suggestions!

[Live True]

John, I'm not sure I can include time and psychological components (at this time) without making this overly complicated...you and K831 seem to be on a similar wavelength here (which is pretty cool). I like the idea, just not certain my head is wrapped around those concepts enough to incorporate effectively (again, at this time).
<><><>
Okay...still got a lot of processing to do with some of the suggestions, but this is my second take on the model and concepts (it lacks the simplicity of the first...but again...a work in progress):

http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy285/livetruesm/Uechi/epiphanytk2.jpg

[Xinglu]

I like the newest version a lot! :)

[xJOHNx]

The new one looks very good! :)

Good to know that there are people who take MA to a higher level. I like this enviroment alot.

[Xue Sheng]

OK, after reading through this post I am betting I am about to get seriously flamed and although I like your diagram, and it is very likely I am misinterpreting it all together but I am looking at it and starting to feel you are over thinking this and getting lost in categorization. Also I will add I know pretty much zilch about your style so all I am about to say is based on what I know which is mostly CMA IMA.

I did much the same exact thing that you are doing in Xingyiquan and Taijiquan and, at least for me, I decided I was trying to over complicate it and categorize it into some thing I knew or understood, that made sense to me, but made no sense as it applied to either style, instead of trying to actually understand it and it was when I simply excepted the fact (in Xingyiquan) that I was a beginner with a lot to learn and stopped trying to over think it that things started to make more sense and I have to say it was rather amazing, since all I needed to do was relax and except what is. And with taiji when I just decided to the same exact thing was when things started to make sense, prior to that I had spent weeks trying to unify the 2 diagrams I first posted (The 13 postures diagram I was using was from Tung Ying Chieh and a little different than the one I posted, but that is my taiji lineage so that is what I used) trying to figure out a link between the 2 and how it could work in attack and defense and I finally asked my Taiji sifu and he said they are not the same since Taiji and Xingyi have different approaches to things and don’t think to much about it eventually it will make sense. And he was absolutely right and that is when things got easier, not easy, just easier. I wasn’t in a rush to learn things anymore there was less pressure (which I put on myself) and it got much more fun, but hard training was and is still required.

I am not saying that you should stop trying to figure things out things with your diagram, I think it is a good start, but there are 2 things in CMA that I first read in one of Bruce Lee’s books years ago (although I am pretty sure it was said by someone else before Lee sifu) that make a whole lot of sense. “The goal should be simply to simplify” and “What is, is”. Don’t over complicate things, don’t try and change them because they are what they are. IMO it is best to stop and simply study what you are learning as it is presented and it will eventually fall into place. I know I was very guilty of trying to rush things, over complicate things and getting upset with myself because it wasn’t making sense for a long time, then I simply relaxed, went with the flow and accepted one other very important thing in “real” CMA training. My sifu knows better than I want I am ready to learn...

Keep at it but don’t over complicate it just about all things in MA are interconnected and rather hard to categorize and separate. To quote (and take entirely out of context and bastardize) a completely unrelated movie

“It is more of what you call guidelines than actual rules, welcome to Martial Arts, Miss Live True”

[mwd0818]

Definitely like where it is going. Keep it up!

And as for Xue Sheng's comments, I agree to a point. Ultimately, it is important to simplify and train, but at different stages, for different people, analysis helps to internalize and grasp concepts. Sometimes, it's better to just do, but I always encourage thought, discussion and exploration. If it's a dead-end, that sometimes is as valuable as finding an answer. But the journey to understanding is both physical and mental.

[Live True]

Actually, Xue, I have absolutely no problem with your post. I also agree to a point (and did I mention I love your sense of humour?:pirate5:).

Right now, this is very much on my mind because I'm enjoying the exercise and continuing to gain from it. I fully intend to do what Celtic Crippler suggested and keep this as an ongoing model I take out time and again and compare over the years. For me, I intend this to be a lifelong practice, and I'm not really trying to rush TO anyplace as much as see where this takes me. I can't remember who suggested physical exercises defined around this model, and that's not really what I'm looking at...at least not at this time. I'm really trying to get thoughts down on paper and see if the flow in my head makes as much sense when I try to capture it on paper....it might be a futile exercise at some point...but as I said, I'm still enjoying this and gaining something from it...and the discussions on this thread have given me much to think upon and consider as well..

Also, which may not apply to a lot of folks here, the martial mindest opened up a much different way of thinking for me. I'm not sure if that's just a result of my past experiences, being female, my culture, or what. It is, as you say (grin), what it is.

When I'm in actual physical practice (on my own or in class) I'm not specifically trying to apply these concepts and go 1-2-3-4 down the line. They are certainly in the back of my mind, and the reason they are on "paper" here is because of a culmination of thoughts that have been bumping around in my head for the last year or so. But when I'm in actual practice, I am trying my level best to do what I do in my (also very beginner) meditation practice...simply "be" in the moment. A year ago, I would have HATED some of the simple repetition that I am doing now as part of my work with my new sensei. Now, I find it settles me and that I've started to learn things in spite of myself...I guess that's part of not overthinking it...simply letting my body figure something out and let my brain catch up with it eventually :uhyeah:.

I expect to be a beginner at martial arts for quite some time, and I fully realize there is so much here I don't yet know/understand/get. so...this is just one of several ways for me to figure it out as I go along.

Marcus, I intend to keep working on this model, but I think I'm at a point where I'm going to need to sit and ponder for a bit...I don't want to put something down just to have another revision. I like these definitions better, but the geek in me is not 100% satisifed. LOL...who knew there were MA Geeks?

[Xue Sheng]

Actually, Xue, I have absolutely no problem with your post. I also agree to a point (and did I mention I love your sense of humour?:pirate5:).

Right now, this is very much on my mind because I'm enjoying the exercise and continuing to gain from it. I fully intend to do what Celtic Crippler suggested and keep this as an ongoing model I take out time and again and compare over the years. For me, I intend this to be a lifelong practice, and I'm not really trying to rush TO anyplace as much as see where this takes me. I can't remember who suggested physical exercises defined around this model, and that's not really what I'm looking at...at least not at this time. I'm really trying to get thoughts down on paper and see if the flow in my head makes as much sense when I try to capture it on paper....it might be a futile exercise at some point...but as I said, I'm still enjoying this and gaining something from it...and the discussions on this thread have given me much to think upon and consider as well..

Also, which may not apply to a lot of folks here, the martial mindest opened up a much different way of thinking for me. I'm not sure if that's just a result of my past experiences, being female, my culture, or what. It is, as you say (grin), what it is.

When I'm in actual physical practice (on my own or in class) I'm not specifically trying to apply these concepts and go 1-2-3-4 down the line. They are certainly in the back of my mind, and the reason they are on "paper" here is because of a culmination of thoughts that have been bumping around in my head for the last year or so. But when I'm in actual practice, I am trying my level best to do what I do in my (also very beginner) meditation practice...simply "be" in the moment. A year ago, I would have HATED some of the simple repetition that I am doing now as part of my work with my new sensei. Now, I find it settles me and that I've started to learn things in spite of myself...I guess that's part of not overthinking it...simply letting my body figure something out and let my brain catch up with it eventually :uhyeah:.

I expect to be a beginner at martial arts for quite some time, and I fully realize there is so much here I don't yet know/understand/get. so...this is just one of several ways for me to figure it out as I go along.

Marcus, I intend to keep working on this model, but I think I'm at a point where I'm going to need to sit and ponder for a bit...I don't want to put something down just to have another revision. I like these definitions better, but the geek in me is not 100% satisifed. LOL...who knew there were MA Geeks?

Enjoy the training :asian:

[KELLYG]

I dig the model. There are a couple of things that may need to be addressed. Technique, if techniques is faulty the the rest will not work. Understanding, if you do not not under stand common attacks and the counter attacks that follow the rest will not work. Fitness, if your fitness level is not there then the rest will not work. Mind, if your attitude is not right then the rest will not work. As for flow charts, they just give me a headache.

[mwd0818]

Marcus, I intend to keep working on this model, but I think I'm at a point where I'm going to need to sit and ponder for a bit...I don't want to put something down just to have another revision. I like these definitions better, but the geek in me is not 100% satisifed. LOL...who knew there were MA Geeks?

Greatness doesn't happen overnight. :) Take your time and explore. As Celtic Crippler mentioned, you'll be intrigued how it changes a year from now too.

And I knew there were MA Geeks . . . I train with one every day, but only see him if I check out the mirror. . .