Anyone ever get serious second thoughts/ doubts about the school that they chose?

[melissa27]

If so, what kind of thing made you, or would make you, leave? I've been in my system for a few years now, and was pretty severly injured during my last test and do not like how it was handled. It's been a few months now and I just can't seen to get past it. I'm considering looking around for another school, but have invested all of this time and effort into this one & feel very torn. Any insights or personal experiences would be greatly appreciated.

[yorkshirelad]

If so, what kind of thing made you, or would make you, leave? I've been in my system for a few years now, and was pretty severly injured during my last test and do not like how it was handled. It's been a few months now and I just can't seen to get past it. I'm considering looking around for another school, but have invested all of this time and effort into this one & feel very torn. Any insights or personal experiences would be greatly appreciated.
Melissa, if you feel uncomfortable or (even worse) endangered leave. At the very least you should have a sit down chat with the owner/chief instructor in the studio. You are there to learn and to enjoy pracise. If you have to pay a tariff to dread going training and be frightened when you get there then you will do yourself no good by merely coping.

Go and shop around at different school. The school that you are at right now maybe perfectly fine, but just not good for you. The longer you leave this the worse it will get if you don't act now. I'm sorry you have to feel this way, but it's a common occurance in Martial Arts.
Good luck

[still learning]

Hello, ONE has to believe in there training and Instructors/Sensi's and the systems....

Trust your instincts....there are many great "other" systems out there...

Yes...I too left after 11 years...won't go into details....my choice here..

Aloha,

PS: like a jobs...sometimes...moving on? ...is a good thing! ONE got to be happy or it will stink!

[melissa27]

Thanks, guys. Without going into too many details either, I will say that my instincts have been going off all over the place, especially since this same person who hurt me went after me a second time in a vulnerable area. I feel like a fool for ever thinking they had my back on this. Not only was it not respected that I wanted my space from this person who hurt me after I came within an inch of my life that first time, but I was led to believe that this person was being dealt with and now I'm seeing that this wasn't the case at all (even after it came out that this person was a real problem student where she came from...she's relatively new to my area & has a serious focus problem). I'm seeing now I was just made to think this to placate me. What really pisses me off is that I am a very dedicated student, rarely missed class, put my blood, sweat and tears into it and worked my ass off, even made it all the way to black belt, put my trust in them after I was hurt, and now I feel like I've been backed into a corner and they are leaving me no choice but to go start all over again somewhere else (I've been over & over this with my instructor). I'm so angry.

[Tez3]

Melissa, it's time to leave, as has been said you don't go there to made uncomfortable or be put in danger. This isn't your problem, it's theirs. Your dedication isn't lost or wasted you will find a new focus with a new school/club where your experience will be appreciated. You won't be starting all over again more changing paths something which can be beneficial at any time not just in bad times, you will be widening your martial arts knowledge as well as recharging your martial arts life.
Find somewhere more to your liking, either talk to your present instructor or if he won't listen write to him let him know exactly how you feel. If you want to make it a very strong letter you don't even have to send it, just get the anger out of your system, you can always edit it afterwards and then send it!
Do, though, let us know how you are getting on!

[Steve]

Agreed with the others. It's hard to start over. While my situation doesn't seem as severe as yours, I was in a school for years in which I had growing concerns. Leaving was hard for several reasons, but once I did, I've not once regretted it. I am so much happier in my training now.

If you don't look forward to going to class, you are in the WRONG class. Period. It's not an obligation and you don't "owe" the school or the instructor anything beyond whatever legal/contractual issues you've worked out.

Just to add to that, some things you don't owe him: an explanation or a debt of gratitude for the time he "invested" in you. You also don't need to help him out of a lurch. Often, particularly with longer term students, they will pressure you into taking on greater responsibility within the school, possibly teaching classes or helping out. Unless you're being paid, you don't even owe him 2 weeks notice.

Good luck.

[melissa27]

Just to add to that, some things you don't owe him: an explanation or a debt of gratitude for the time he "invested" in you. You also don't need to help him out of a lurch. Often, particularly with longer term students, they will pressure you into taking on greater responsibility within the school, possibly teaching classes or helping out. Unless you're being paid, you don't even owe him 2 weeks notice.

Good luck.

*Thanks, guys.*

Everything you guys are saying is what I have already been thinking for a while, and there had been a few other things that were also red flags so this isn't an isolated incident. And I totally feel like I owe them something/ there's a debt of gratitude (& I have also gotten to the point where I am teaching), as stated in the above quote, mixed right along in with the anger & betrayal.

Let me ask, how on earth do I go about looking for a new school/system? Any tips/advice/knowledge from personal experiences?
This is the only system I have ever been in & don't even know where to begin..

[blackxpress]

Are there other schools in the same or similar system that you could go to? If so, you would not be starting over. Far from it. I'm just wondering if the trouble you're having is specific to that particular school and not the style itself.

[Tensei85]

If so, what kind of thing made you, or would make you, leave? I've been in my system for a few years now, and was pretty severly injured during my last test and do not like how it was handled. It's been a few months now and I just can't seen to get past it. I'm considering looking around for another school, but have invested all of this time and effort into this one & feel very torn. Any insights or personal experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Yea, pretty much echo the advice already given:

But I left a School that I had spent 12 year's in, like "still learning" won't go into the full details.

But if your uncomfortable there, I would recommend this:

1. Take it up with the Instructor- let him know your feeling straight up. (in this case you do pay for his/her instructions, so you are in titled to atleast an opinion & resolution)

2. If no resolution is made, I would say weigh out the circumstances.

a. Don't ever let the Instructor make you feel that he/she is the only one qualified enough to teach you. (that's a long stretch but I have found Teachers that make there students feel that without them, they won't obtain any progress as only they are true teachers, etc...)

b. Can you find what your looking for in another school with a better suited more comfortable environment?

c. Take that step back and look into the reasons as to why you want to pursue Martial Arts training, check around... find another teacher and tell them exactly what you are looking to get out of before you even start.
So that way there will be no surprises hopefully...

As far as looking for a new school, its definitely not easy but as said before.

Make a list of everything you expect, then arrange a meeting after looking into what system(s) you would like to study. Tell the Sifu/Sensei... each of these expectations that you have as a potential student, try a class- see if the environment, students, teachers meet your expectations.

And get a recommendation, check around see what the potential School's reputation is with the Martial Art's community, better yet with the community around them.

It's a long process but my suggestion is don't take it lightly, If you can find a good Instructor that can transmit knowledge and provide you with results. Than he/she is truly invaluable, much better than spending decades with a Teacher that doesn't have the same qualities or doesn't care about there students and only see's them as a $$$ sign's.

So take your time, have patience, there are a lot of good Teacher's (quite a few of them are on this forum) so check the locations and see what is offered in your area.

Best of luck!

[Steve]

Well, I posted a response and the internet ate it. Suffice to say, I would recommend that you be honest with yourself about why you're training, what you expect to learn or gain, and what really bothered you about your old school.

For example, I hated testing every 3 months whether I felt ready or not. I hated the phony honorifics and the way I felt like I was play acting more than exercising. I didn't enjoy hitting people although I don't mind being hit as much. I realized that I didn't care one whit about self defence, and just wanted to have fun training, get rewarded with promotion without fanfare only when I had earned it and get a good workout with people I like. BJJ is a perfect fit for me.

The key for you is figuring out what's a perfect fit for you. Some people really like the uniforms and the formality. Whatever suits your needs.

[Steve]

Yea, pretty much echo the advice already given:

But I left a School that I had spent 12 year's in, like "still learning" won't go into the full details.

But if your uncomfortable there, I would recommend this:

1. Take it up with the Instructor- let him know your feeling straight up. (in this case you do pay for his/her instructions, so you are in titled to atleast an opinion & resolution)I would not recommend this in most cases for a couple of reasons. First, if you think it will in any way reinforce that you're doing something wrong, i wouldn't do it. Second, if you think it would in any way lead to burning a bridge, I wouldn't do it. Third, if you think that there's any way he might talk you into staying even though you KNOW that this would be the wrong thing for you, I wouldn't do it. Finally, it puts the onus on you to confront your instructor. You may handle this well, but most people will, when cornered, completely unload. It is very likely that once you start "letting him know your feelings" you will dump every grievance and problem, opening the floodgates, so to speak. While he may handle it graciously, I wouldn't count on it. Letting him know that you're leaving is usually the polite thing to do, but as I said before, you do not owe him an explanation, even though he will likely ask you for one.


2. If no resolution is made, I would say weigh out the circumstances. Only if you're interested in a resolution other than leaving the school.

[suicide]

If so, what kind of thing made you, or would make you, leave? I've been in my system for a few years now, and was pretty severly injured during my last test and do not like how it was handled. It's been a few months now and I just can't seen to get past it. I'm considering looking around for another school, but have invested all of this time and effort into this one & feel very torn. Any insights or personal experiences would be greatly appreciated.


these things happen , like 2 years ago a heavy set female did SEOI NAGE : judo throw on me in class she lost her balance after executing it and fell with her elbow right into my chest it hurt in a funny way cause i laff´d it off but it took me like 5 to 6 months to get over it - everytime i inhaled it hurt everytime i did anything it HURT but that didnt stop me from going hard i used what ever i could to get better THE POINT IS DONT LET THAT STOP YOU - GO HARD ´LET EM KNOW YOU AINT NO JOKE GO TO CLASS AND GET YOUR ISSUE flip those negative FEELINGS into positive ones AND WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES - HANDLE YOUR BUISNESS :shooter:

[Tensei85]

I would not recommend this in most cases for a couple of reasons. First, if you think it will in any way reinforce that you're doing something wrong, i wouldn't do it. Second, if you think it would in any way lead to burning a bridge, I wouldn't do it. Third, if you think that there's any way he might talk you into staying even though you KNOW that this would be the wrong thing for you, I wouldn't do it. Finally, it puts the onus on you to confront your instructor. You may handle this well, but most people will, when cornered, completely unload. It is very likely that once you start "letting him know your feelings" you will dump every grievance and problem, opening the floodgates, so to speak. While he may handle it graciously, I wouldn't count on it. Letting him know that you're leaving is usually the polite thing to do, but as I said before, you do not owe him an explanation, even though he will likely ask you for one.

Only if you're interested in a resolution other than leaving the school.

I understand your opinion but to me it's better to be straight up and forward with one's thoughts as opposed to just leaving without reason. This serve's as info for the Instructor to correct his/her teaching methods & possibly not make the same mistake with future students. This is a tad disrespectful however, but it's important to be truthful as opposed to be like yea, yea everything's fine (when its not) or just take off & leave.

That's my opinion just for how I would handle it, (definitely not to be taken as truth, & in reality probably not recommended) but that's how I react. But either way it is important for Instructors to have students opinions as to how they are doing or how they can improve- in a perfect world lol! Probably not very applicable however.

[artFling]

It sounds like you're ready to leave. This might be a good time to look in to a different yet complimentary system. It wouldn't be like starting over because (and I don't know what system you are training in) you already know how to throw a front kick, round kick, reverse punch, etc. You already probably have very good balance. You know the basic stances. Therefore you'll learn the new material much more quickly. Sure you'll have to unlearn some things that they do differently. I've learned that in going from TKD to Kaju. Kaju has no back stances and I automatically drop into a back stance when I'm training in kaju when I should be in a horse. I'm rambling, I know. Find something new, where you won't be expected to teach (if you don't want to), and your brain will get happy.

[Xinglu]

these things happen , like 2 years ago a heavy set female did SEOI NAGE : judo throw on me in class she lost her balance after executing it and fell with her elbow right into my chest it hurt in a funny way cause i laff´d it off but it took me like 5 to 6 months to get over it - everytime i inhaled it hurt everytime i did anything it HURT but that didnt stop me from going hard i used what ever i could to get better THE POINT IS DONT LET THAT STOP YOU - GO HARD ´LET EM KNOW YOU AINT NO JOKE GO TO CLASS AND GET YOUR ISSUE flip those negative FEELINGS into positive ones AND WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES - HANDLE YOUR BUISNESS :shooter:

Accidents happen and that is one thing. Malicious attempts to injure, that something completely different. However, I get the distinct impression that the problem student is intentionally going after the OP and did not accidentally injure her... the behavioral recidivism is a testament to that. Maliciousness has no place in training.

[Xinglu]

As to finding a new school, what style are you learning? Is their another school that teaches that style or something similar?

[suicide]

you shouldnt be the one that has to leave ! this is one of those times that defines who you really are CONFRONT YOUR LIMITATIONS AND GO HARD ! do not turn back under no circumstances ESPECIALLY A BULLY thats what MA is all about NO PAIN NO GAIN after that its all to the good :whip1:

[JadecloudAlchemist]

A student should not feel threaten in the Dojo everyone should feel safe and safety is a primary concern. Your teacher sounds like he did not display proper disciplinary actions on the other student in question so your anger is in the right. Others have said to leave I agree you are better off with someone who truly cares for their students wellbeing. A teacher is like a father/mother figure in some arts he or she should have concern for the wellbeing for all his or her students.

As for finding a new school it is easier then you think. Martial talk has many dedicated members who can help find a school that is right for you and answer any questions you may have.

Now if you will excuse me I am going to watch Maid Deka my hero....

[Marginal]

these things happen , like 2 years ago a heavy set female did SEOI NAGE : judo throw on me in class she lost her balance after executing it and fell with her elbow right into my chest it hurt in a funny way cause i laff´d it off but it took me like 5 to 6 months to get over it - everytime i inhaled it hurt everytime i did anything it HURT but that didnt stop me from going hard i used what ever i could to get better THE POINT IS DONT LET THAT STOP YOU - GO HARD ´LET EM KNOW YOU AINT NO JOKE GO TO CLASS AND GET YOUR ISSUE flip those negative FEELINGS into positive ones AND WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES - HANDLE YOUR BUISNESS :shooter:
If someone say, broke my leg in the middle of a class to make a point, and then the instructor just told me what they thought I wanted to hear and in reality did nothing about it, I would not let that pass.

I would GO HARD to another school. Possibly GO HARD after the offender's pocketbook via court.

[Xinglu]

you shouldnt be the one that has to leave ! this is one of those times that defines who you really are CONFRONT YOUR LIMITATIONS AND GO HARD ! do not turn back under no circumstances ESPECIALLY A BULLY thats what MA is all about NO PAIN NO GAIN after that its all to the good :whip1:
Ah but the instructor is unwilling to do anything about this, and bad blood should not exist in the training hall. She is taking the honorable route and removing herself from the problem since the problem will not be removed from the school.

[melissa27]

Thank you all for the responses. I do not want to go into too much detail, but the incidents were no accidents. At this point I have been over & over it again with my instructor/instructors so I'm not sure if I'm up for another round of talking since it didn't seem to do much. I think I may just take a month off to think, I don't want to burn any bridges but I also want to honor and trust myself and what happened to me. At this point I do dread going to class and feel lot of anger for how I was led to believe that all of this stuff was going on behind the scenes after the first time I was injured & that there was going to be some disciplinary action, and in actuality this wasn't the case at all. There were some general talks about focus presented to everyone, but she was not dealt with directly. You know, I think I'm mad at myself for being stupid enough to believe they had my back on this when I had no actual proof, to the point where I let my guard down & it happened on a smaller scale a second time.

[Carol]

There is no honor in an abusive environment. Take your time, energy, and money where you are respected.

[K-man]

I do not want to go into too much detail, but the incidents were no accidents. At this point I have been over & over it again with my instructor/instructors so I'm not sure if I'm up for another round of talking since it didn't seem to do much. I think I may just take a month off to think, I don't want to burn any bridges but I also want to honor and trust myself and what happened to me. At this point I do dread going to class and feel lot of anger for how I was led to believe that all of this stuff was going on behind the scenes after the first time I was injured & that there was going to be some disciplinary action, and in actuality this wasn't the case at all.
Take the time out. That is a good idea. Use the time to look at some other schools. Talk to some of the other schools' students and ask about the dynamic of their class. Do the students have fun and enjoy the classes? What happens if there is a personality clash? Are there any dojo politics? Personally, I train for a number of reasons. Way up there is enjoying the training. The day I stop enjoying the training, I am out! I did do that many years ago when dojo politics broke our style apart. After many years I returned to training. I don't for one minute regret leaving, only that it took me so long to go back. :asian:

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I have been asked by the OP not to mention the style for fear of the sensei causing retribution on to the OP. This sounds almost cult-like.

If the Mods feel posting the OP style endangers the OP then please delete it. However part of me wishes that people know what is happening and maybe someone could make a difference.

As to Melissa my apologies to posting your style it was a question another member asked but you should be honest with yourself why would you want to be part of something that endangers your life?

[suicide]

If someone say, broke my leg in the middle of a class to make a point, and then the instructor just told me what they thought I wanted to hear and in reality did nothing about it, I would not let that pass.

I would GO HARD to another school. Possibly GO HARD after the offender's pocketbook via court.


look chick , when you get attacked on the street or in a dark alley or in a mall parking lot or in a public park ( to get robbed or raped or murdered ) your gonna thank the day that it got rough in your dojo and you survived , theres alot of reasons why we all take MA : health , wealth & love etc etc just remind yourself of the self defense real world aspect of it i hope you are never in a tuff situation were your abilities to survive will be in question - you just never know sometimes ? :angel:

[JadecloudAlchemist]

look chick , when you get attacked on the street or in a dark alley or in a mall parking lot or in a public park ( to get robbed or raped or murdered ) your gonna thank the day that it got rough in your dojo and you survived , theres alot of reasons why we all take MA : health , wealth & love etc etc just remind yourself of the self defense real world aspect of it i hope you are never in a tuff situation were your abilities to survive will be in question - you just never know sometimes ? :angel:

There is a difference between rough in the Dojo and plain negligence.

[suicide]

There is a difference between rough in the Dojo and plain negligence.

ok ? was her leg or arm broken ? did she pick her eyeball up off the ground ? what was it exactly that she felt was to much ? they pulled her gi one way to hard doesnt count ! you think her teacher is gonna be there to save her all the time ? no way maybe the teacher looked the other way : just to toughen her up a bit - what do you expect she was testing !

and to the person talking about sueing ? i would love to see you sue a crack head heroin junkie off the street trying to robb rape & murder you for 5 bucks in that case sue your self for not going to class and GOING HARD & TAKING CLASS SERIOUS i dont go to class to make friends i go to get my issue and thats it !

[tshadowchaser]

After a year in my first school i had seen enough of other schools and what they did to know that I wanted more than my instructor could provide. I looked around and found two schools that had what I wanted. I found a job near one of those two schools and moved there. I stayed in that system for 30 years till I found it was time to leave for reason that will not be discussed over an internet forum

[JadecloudAlchemist]

ok ? was her leg or arm broken ? did she pick her eyeball up off the ground ? what was it exactly that she felt was to much ? they pulled her gi one way to hard doesnt count ! you think her teacher is gonna be there to save her all the time ? no way maybe the teacher looked the other way : just to toughen her up a bit - what do you expect she was testing !

and to the person talking about sueing ? i would love to see you sue a crack head heroin junkie off the street trying to robb rape & murder you for 5 bucks in that case sue your self for not going to class and GOING HARD & TAKING CLASS SERIOUS i dont go to class to make friends i go to get my issue and thats it ! It does not matter what YOU think is too much because you are not the other person dealing with the things in question. Everyone has their limits and there is no reason to have your arm or leg broken because someone can not control themselves and even more so have a teacher who does not take responsibility by discipling the out of control student. The girl felt her life was threaten that should not happen in the Dojo period!!

Stop confusing what happens in a controled setting like a Dojo and someone on the streets they are 2 seperate issues.

[geezer]

ok ? was her leg or arm broken ? did she pick her eyeball up off the ground ? what was it exactly that she felt was to much ? they pulled her gi one way to hard doesnt count ! you think her teacher is gonna be there to save her all the time ? no way maybe the teacher looked the other way : just to toughen her up a bit - what do you expect she was testing !

Suicide, rather than assuming that the OP is just a whiny wimp, why not give her the benefit of the doubt, or at least ask for a bit of clarification before getting preachy and going all "Rex Kwon Do" on her! It sure sounds to me like she has a legitimate gripe here.


...i dont go to class to make friends i go to get my issue and thats it !

OK, dude, that's YOU talking. Not everybody takes martial arts classes to become the ultimate warrior. Maybe you think they should, but a lot of folks would disagree. Self-defense skills are important to me too, but I also train for fitness and pure love of the art I train. And then there's the fact that I do like getting out of the house and spending time with old friends at the kwoon. If that doesn't matter to you, fine. But to a lot of us, it's an important part of our guality of life. Just my 2 cents.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Not everybody takes martial arts classes to become the ultimate warrior.

Right some people like myself go to have a rock hard ass so I can look good in spandex.

[melissa27]

It was a head/neck injury. I was thrown by my neck and had my head slammed into the ground and had no way of protecting myself because of the way she had my neck. My neck was injured & I had a concussion and at one point my doctor thought I had cerebral cortex damage. She could have killed or paralyzed me. It took me months to get over it and from day one I thought there was something really wrong with someone of her rank 'forgetting' to be careful with the head/neck. I still get random nose bleeds and headaches. I didn't want to work with her after that and my instructor insisted, making it seem like there was disciplinary action being taken against her. Well there wasn't and I let my guard down & she went after my head/neck a second time, and now my instructor is trying to get me to work with her *again*. Believe me, I have had my share of bumps and bruises and injuries here & there, can defend against multiple attackers, etc, and I'm certainly not a wimp or a whiner, but when it comes to the head and neck, I'm not going to get paralyzed or killed for the sake of "proving" something to somone or that I'm tough. I already know I'm tough and if any idiot went after me on the street, they are going down & won't get the opportunity to go after my head/neck. In the dojo when training, you do need to have some trust/faith in your partner that they are skilled enough not to attack vulnerable areas.

[grydth]

I would recommend you get out of there NOW.

Head injuries are being shown through research to be far more serious in their future effects than many ever imagined.

One goes to an MA school to learn to be safe - here, you are simply being mugged in your dojo.

While one cannot understand why your teacher insists on pairing you up with this violent nut, I cannot understand why you would ever go back. You have done everything you could reasonably do.... and more. Even if it meant giving up MA entirely (and it does not) LEAVE while you still have your life and your health.

[jks9199]

these things happen , like 2 years ago a heavy set female did SEOI NAGE : judo throw on me in class she lost her balance after executing it and fell with her elbow right into my chest it hurt in a funny way cause i laff´d it off but it took me like 5 to 6 months to get over it - everytime i inhaled it hurt everytime i did anything it HURT but that didnt stop me from going hard i used what ever i could to get better THE POINT IS DONT LET THAT STOP YOU - GO HARD ´LET EM KNOW YOU AINT NO JOKE GO TO CLASS AND GET YOUR ISSUE flip those negative FEELINGS into positive ones AND WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES - HANDLE YOUR BUISNESS :shooter:
Training accidents and injuries will happen, in even the most gentle of classes. Even solely doing tai chi movements, without a partner, you can still slip, or twist wrong and be injured. Harder training, or partner work, always carries a potential for accidental injuries.

But they shouldn't be treated cavalierly. The person at fault should be identified (I've got a scar from someone kicking me in the chin that was my own damn fault, for example. I was leading the exercise, he did what I told him to.), and the cause of the injury examined and addressed as appropriate. Sometimes, the cause is going to be dumb luck. Sometimes it's going to be carelessness on the part of one or both participants. But when the cause is deliberate acts, without a training justification, then there's a problem. And it needs to be addressed, not cavalierly ignored with a "these things happen" attitude. The way it's addressed can range from hitting someone going too hard for an exercise just as hard with a warning, or a verbal warning, or "personal correction" from the teacher, to expelling the student. The specifics of the incident and the school will determine that...

But there's a reason that the Cobra Kai dojo from the Karate Kid movies is the stereotype of lousy martial arts instruction...

[jks9199]

It was a head/neck injury. I was thrown by my neck and had my head slammed into the ground and had no way of protecting myself because of the way she had my neck. My neck was injured & I had a concussion and at one point my doctor thought I had cerebral cortex damage. She could have killed or paralyzed me. It took me months to get over it and from day one I thought there was something really wrong with someone of her rank 'forgetting' to be careful with the head/neck. I still get random nose bleeds and headaches. I didn't want to work with her after that and my instructor insisted, making it seem like there was disciplinary action being taken against her. Well there wasn't and I let my guard down & she went after my head/neck a second time, and now my instructor is trying to get me to work with her *again*. Believe me, I have had my share of bumps and bruises and injuries here & there, can defend against multiple attackers, etc, and I'm certainly not a wimp or a whiner, but when it comes to the head and neck, I'm not going to get paralyzed or killed for the sake of "proving" something to somone or that I'm tough. I already know I'm tough and if any idiot went after me on the street, they are going down & won't get the opportunity to go after my head/neck. In the dojo when training, you do need to have some trust/faith in your partner that they are skilled enough not to attack vulnerable areas.
Go elsewhere. NOW.

If you're in a contract, discuss it with a lawyer, but I suspect that you probably have very good grounds to terminate the contract. Once is an accident. The second time is deliberate action on the part of your so-called partner. The instructor insisting that you work with them is negligence.

We've had a few folks in my style and my school that have a tendency to go harder than others. There's often someone around who forgets their own strength/power or simply gets too wrapped up in the exercise... A responsible instructor knows who to pair them with... or otherwise works around that person's problems. Or sends them away...

You're in a bad situation, and you need to get out of it.

[K-man]

ok ? was her leg or arm broken ? did she pick her eyeball up off the ground ? what was it exactly that she felt was to much ? they pulled her gi one way to hard doesnt count ! you think her teacher is gonna be there to save her all the time ? no way maybe the teacher looked the other way : just to toughen her up a bit - what do you expect she was testing !

and to the person talking about sueing ? i would love to see you sue a crack head heroin junkie off the street trying to robb rape & murder you for 5 bucks in that case sue your self for not going to class and GOING HARD & TAKING CLASS SERIOUS i dont go to class to make friends i go to get my issue and thats it !
I can agree that we need realistic training but what you are condoning is just plain wrong. Everyone I train with has to go to work the next day. The don't want blackeyes and broken bones. They expect to come to train in a safe environment, free from unrestrained violence and intimidation. If the teacher 'looked the other way' then the teacher would also be at risk of litigation.
If what you suggest is ok was carried to its logical conclusion you would be saying it is fine to hit or kick anybody and if they happen to be smaller, weaker or older that's too bad because that is what could happen on the street. That's crap! We train to learn and practise skills that will give us a fighting chance if we are in a threatening situation and cannot walk away.
I take my classes very seriously, but I don't beat up on anybody just because I can. I train hard and I do enjoy the company of my friends who train with me. :asian:

[Milt G.]

If so, what kind of thing made you, or would make you, leave? I've been in my system for a few years now, and was pretty severly injured during my last test and do not like how it was handled. It's been a few months now and I just can't seen to get past it. I'm considering looking around for another school, but have invested all of this time and effort into this one & feel very torn. Any insights or personal experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Hello,

In the end it is always best to follow your heart.
It will really never let you down.

If you do decide to leave, there are many other good choices out there. You just have to find your "fit". It may even end up being where you are now.

Follow your heart.

Thanks,
Milt G.

[suicide]

dont take a month off show em you aint gonna let up ! if she gets ruff again raise your voice and check her _ss right in front of the whole class !

jade : dojo & streets are 2 diffrent things yes i know - but there so intertwinded that sometimes you cant seperate them SO DONT GET IT TWISTED ...

we all train in one way or another for the same reasons , im just telling her to dont back down - tell that other person right to there face : STAY THE _UCK AWAY FROM MY HEAD AND NECK ! last time im a tell you. melisa i wish i knew you and was in your class i´d put the smash( check her ) down on her 4 you - it dont take an ultimate warrior 2 speak your mind to the fullest !

jade : i salute you for filling up those spandex the way they should %-}

WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR NECK & HEAD PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN thats something very serious right there dont wait to its to late ...

[Jenny_in_Chico]

I don't particularly agree with suicide's reasoning or communication style. However, as much as I hate to say it, he has a point.

Issue 1: Melissa has been bullied (perhaps even attacked) by a classmate.

Issue 2: She has been betrayed by her sensei, who chose to soothe the stormy waters rather than confront the troublemaker.

Now, if Issue 1 were the only issue on the table, then suicide's reasoning would actually hold water. Confronting the troublemaker, preferably in public, would allow Melissa to face her fear and anger and banish that demon. I'm not suggesting that Melissa is physically afraid of this woman, but there must be some barrier which is preventing her from protecting herself and speaking up irrespective of what her sensei demands. What was at the core of this whole saga? Why didn't Melissa nip this aggressive interaction in the bud long ago? I'm not pointing fingers, Melissa...it hurts to admit it, but often people are bullies because they didn't get shut down from the very beginning.

However, there is Issue 2...her sensei did not protect her, which was his job. He may have actually lied, if only by omission, when he said that the troublemaker was being dealt with. He then forced Melissa to "fight" with this woman again, knowing that he really had done nothing to curb her aggression. In my opinion, this was negligent, perhaps criminally so. He betrayed her by literally throwing her to the wolves, after lying to her and saying that the wolves had muzzles on.

So, it is my opinion that Melissa should leave the dojo, not because of the bully, but because of her sensei. The trust that exists between a student and sensei can only be stretched so far before it breaks. That dojo is now poisoned for her.

However, I also respectfully suggest to Melissa that she carefully consider the part she herself played in this saga, so that it is never repeated again. You have to lay down before someone can walk on you.

Jenny

[Xinglu]

However, there is Issue 2...her sensei did not protect her, which was his job. He may have actually lied, if only by omission, when he said that the troublemaker was being dealt with. He then forced Melissa to "fight" with this woman again, knowing that he really had done nothing to curb her aggression. In my opinion, this was negligent, perhaps criminally so. He betrayed her by literally throwing her to the wolves, after lying to her and saying that the wolves had muzzles on.

So, it is my opinion that Melissa should leave the dojo, not because of the bully, but because of her sensei. The trust that exists between a student and sensei can only be stretched so far before it breaks. That dojo is now poisoned for her.

Exactly. This IS the actual problem. Issue one can be resolved in many ways and unfortunately happens from time to time in training halls, but issue two is what makes this truly despicable.

Because of they lies and betrayal from her instructor - it IS time to leave. That trust has been broken, and when there is no trust between teacher and student - nothing of value can be learned.

[Carol]

You don't want to sustain a significant head injury, believe me.

That is, perhaps, the only situation that I can think of where knowledge and education can be taken away from you. You have to learn how to think again. You have to learn how to relate to people again, and understand how they relate to you. The memory loss associated with something can mean years of carrying a pad and paper to write down the most mundane things someone tells you to do. You have to re-learn how to remember. You have to vigorously take notes on the job, lest you not remember enough to do your responsibilities. You have to fight friends and loved ones thinking that you don't care about them because you can't what they shared with you in a conversation.......unless you write it down, which looks really weird.

And that's before any physical issues come in to play, such as neck pain, migraines, or worse.

You can always take your martial arts knowledge and build upon in one way or another. But please, don't risk your own health over this.

[K831]

Jenny_in_Chico, great post.

I agree, if the issue is the bully and the bully alone, then take a stand and don't let her drive you away from a school you like.

If the issue also includes a negligent/dishonest instructor, then don't waste time thinking about it any longer. Leave.

Martial arts instructors, in my experience, break down like this:

60% - Not really very good. Their missing some important pieces.

30% - Pretty good and worth training with. Good information and teaching skill.

10% - Wow. These few really know the material, have real experience, care about their students and can really teach. Plus the style fits YOU and so does the instructors personality.

The 10% group (which took me years to find) is the only type of school and instructor I would really fight to stay with. Of course, an instructor in this category WOULDN'T HAVE PUT YOU IN THIS SITUATION.

[TigerCraneGuy]

Dear Melissa,

Like most others here, I think you should leave.

Many have already given helpful opinions. FWIW, here are some more (at least I hope they're useful):

1) The true nature of self-defence (as stolen from Marc Animal Macyoung): If you do what you do for self-defence (I'm only assuming this as you spoke about multiple-attackers and the like), then always remember: if you're not there, then you cannot be hurt! Ahead lies danger, you circumvent it. Maneuver around it. Evade and escape it. In so doing, you have 'successfully' defended yourself. Avoidance is the most overlooked of defenses.

2) The odds are against you. The instructor, who is likely more skilled than you (just an assumption, not a slight of any sort), seems to be colluding with the bully. And her or his senior students might also be in on the deal. If you take her down just to prove a point, who's to say, they won't intervene on her side. Choose your battles wisely; don't let the enemy dictate. Given the unfair odds against you, I recommend you walk away from this one.

2) You become like her. If this is the sort of behaviour that is condoned and even lauded in your dojo, then in order to survive, you might have to become like your aggressor. A bully. A thug. Is this really what you want?

3) Lack of control. I train in a contact system. We don't tippy tap each other. We hit hard, but ultimately, we hit with control. In training, whether it be application-practice or freestyle sparring, we strike each other just hard enough to feel the sting, and to know that the technique actually works, but not hard enough to cause serious injury. Control... that's the key word in operation here. It keeps you from making serious mistakes, whether in the Dojo or in life itself. Your aggressor does not seem to possess this quality. And worse yet, your instructor doesn't appear to value it. Therefore, they are dangerous to be around, and you should remove yourself from their company quicksmart.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Ryan

[melissa27]

Hi Guys,
Thanks again for all of your thoughts & great responses. Believe me, I never really believed that she was so clueless that first time & after this last time, it just reinforced what I already knew. The only reason I didn't get into it with her after the first time was because I was made to believe that she was being dealt with by the higher ups. When it became obvious that wasn't the case after the second time, I confronted her and ripped her a new one & made it clear she was NEVER to go near my head & neck again. A higher ranking black belt & my instructor spoke with her after the second time too, yet AGAIN he wants me to work with her after I told him I wanted my space from her. I think she's manipulative and unbalanced & you guys know how it is, it can just take a second when you have someone with really bad focus, how quickly things can turn ugly. And the lead guy refused to get involved. When it comes down to it that's what it is, my trust has been broken & I feel betrayed, and it's the instructors I have an issue with at this point, not even her anymore.

p.s also, I do agree with Tigercraneguy, if I stay and am forced to deal with her and end up having to beat on her to 'prove' something, I will not only be doing the exact same thing as she , but who is to say that won't be turned around & used against me?

[suicide]

if you decided to leave THEN GO OUT WITH A BANG get some controlled payback i mean its only right %-} also dont just leave with out having a new place to go cause the down time can set you back you need to be on some SUN TZU ART OF WAR on this one ...

[KELLYG]

I think that an instructors job is to protect you from dangerous people like her. Your instructor knows that there is a problem between you and the other student. He was probably there when both incidences occurred. If you are being physically damaged and possibly permanently damaged, and he is doing nothing, then it is just as much at fault that you were hurt as she was. Obviously if he has "spoken" to her and their has been no change in behavior then she becomes all the more dangerous, because she knows that she can get away with it. I am afraid that if you stay then you will be in more danger because of it. Yes I like my school and it would take a lot to get me to leave. But I also like walking, talking, bathing, reading, eating etc.

[Live True]

Melissa,
I have only a small thing to add to the excellent advice that has already given (especially the "ah-ha" post from Jenny_in_Chico).

I recently left my sensei and found a new one, for reasons I also will not get into here. It was a very hard decision, in part because I knew there was much I could still learn from him and he is not a totally bad person. However, after discussing my concerns with him, with no resolution, I determined it was time for me to seek a teacher more suited to my needs.

I still stay in touch with him, as I may go back and learn from him again someday (my situation was nowhere near as dangerous as yours).

The wonderful thing, though, is that I have found a teacher who not only better suits my way of learning and my goals, but she pushes me harder than I have ever been pushed before...and I LOVE IT! I have learned more in two months with my new sensei than I did in 2 years with my old...and that has very little to do with either's teaching ability and everything to do with finding the RIGHT teacher for me.

So, while I realize you have a lot invested in your current school, I would agree that you should seriously consider moving on to another, as your safety is paramount.

But realize this doesn't have to be a loss. It appears you've made your instructors aware of your concerns. So leave, if possible, without rancor, and a "we shall see what the future holds" attitude.

Then visit several schools, observe the teachers and students. Talk with both afterwards if you can. Try out a few schools before committing to one. Also, consider seeking out more private dojos or instructors that may or may not be affiliated with a school, if you find that option available and comfortable to you. The same, observe/ask/try mode follows in one on one or small groups as in formal schools.

Hopefully, you will find a new training situation that not only feeds your learning, meets your goals, and challenges you....but feeds the heart and soul that drives you to train as well!

[Jenny_in_Chico]

When it became obvious that wasn't the case after the second time, I confronted her and ripped her a new one & made it clear she was NEVER to go near my head & neck again.

Excellent! That sets my mind at rest. You tried your best to protect yourself, and your only mistake lay in trusting your sensei to do his job. Suckage that he didn't. So you can leave with a clear mind, because your mistakes were based on you being true to your personal integrity.

My sensei is in that 10% = awesome. I'm lucky as hell.

[suicide]

by the way melissa , is your teacher the one that had one of his black belts so called brutally beat some homeless mental case off the streets 25 years ago ? %-}

[melissa27]

Suicide- I don't think so!! Not sure about that one..

Everyone who answered the thread, I will go back and give a 'thanks' to all of you when I get a chance, I really appreciate all of your great advice. You all gave me lots to think about.

Yeah, the hard part is, this wasn't overall negative experience at this school, most of my experience here has been positive and I learned a lot and I feel so torn up right now. And even with this situation, it wasn't totally black & white, you know how it is when someone hurts you or something bad happens, sometimes there is just enough gray area there to make you question yourself, especially when you are being told one thing but are seeing another reality and you start questioning your own sanity. I'm going to take the next month or so to do some thinking, maybe train with some friends of mine here at my house so I don't start forgetting what I learned, check out what else is out there.

Thanks again, everyone..

[melissa27]

oh, and Jenny, not only did I gladly, and finally, rip her a new one, but she was totally reduced to tears and crying by the end of class. heehee...

[Jenny_in_Chico]

oh, and Jenny, not only did I gladly, and finally, rip her a new one, but she was totally reduced to tears and crying by the end of class. heehee...

Niiiiiiiiiice...