Larense Garrote Venezuelan Martial Art

[The Boar Man]

In the latest Journal of Asian Martial Arts vol.12 #2 2003

There is a short but interesting article on this system of Venezuelan Stickfighting Art. The author makes reference to the similarity to the martial art systems of the Philippines.

The author makes the point that both systems (the Venezuelan and the Filipino) were impacted by several closely related items
1) Both were occupied by the Spanish for a long period of time (200-300 years).
2) Both cultures addopted techniques from the Spanish style of sword play. Or maybe I should say improved on or modified the techniques and concepts of Spanish sword play.
3) Both had their native systems outlawed and subsequently had to train in secrecy or under the cover of socio-religious plays.
4)Both used common Spanish terms to describe their weapons garrote or baston.
5) Both use a stick to train with but apply the techniques with the bolo/machete.

Anyone else seen or read the article, or heard about this system?

Also in the article one of the points that is shown is the switching of the weapon into the other hand. I remember seeing GM Remy do this alot when demonstraing his Tapi Tapi. Here though it seems that this is a main part of the system.

Any thoughts or comments on this.

[arnisador]

Bong Jornales of Arnis-Sikaran also emphasizes the switching of the stick.

A search on larense here will turn up several threads, e.g.:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7018

Some links:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=551

[moromoro]

GM navarro also emphasises switching hands tholding the stick but this is when full pace contact sparring......

[pesilat]

Originally posted by The Boar Man

Anyone else seen or read the article, or heard about this system?

Also in the article one of the points that is shown is the switching of the weapon into the other hand. I remember seeing GM Remy do this alot when demonstraing his Tapi Tapi. Here though it seems that this is a main part of the system.

Any thoughts or comments on this.

I know one of the guys who teaches this (in fact, I think it's the guy who brought it to the US and probably the guy who wrote the article, though I haven't seen the article yet).

I've only seen a very short demo of Garrote Larense. It was very interesting. To me, it looked a lot like FMA. But it did have a different flavor.

As far as the switching of hands, yes this is done in FMA. But in the Garrote Larense, it looked to me like they switched hands nearly every time they moved within the drill I saw. As I say, I saw only a very brief demo so can't really make any definitive comparisons.

The impression I got was that the principles are the same. The flavor is different. The footwork they use is not alien to FMA ... but where FMA (in my experience) favors triangles for footwork, Garrote Larense seemed to favor a rectangular stepping pattern.

I look forward to seeing more of this art.

Mike

[The Boar Man]

Originally posted by pesilat
1)I know one of the guys who teaches this (in fact, I think it's the guy who brought it to the US and probably the guy who wrote the article, though I haven't seen the article yet).

2)I've only seen a very short demo of Garrote Larense. It was very interesting. To me, it looked a lot like FMA. But it did have a different flavor.

3)As far as the switching of hands, yes this is done in FMA. But in the Garrote Larense, it looked to me like they switched hands nearly every time they moved within the drill I saw. As I say, I saw only a very brief demo so can't really make any definitive comparisons.

4)The impression I got was that the principles are the same. The flavor is different. The footwork they use is not alien to FMA ... but where FMA (in my experience) favors triangles for footwork, Garrote Larense seemed to favor a rectangular stepping pattern.

I look forward to seeing more of this art.

Mike

Mike

I inserted numbers into your qoute so that I can comment on what you said and keep me in line in my thoughts.

1) The author was Bruno Cruicchi, and his asisstant in the photos was Bob Orlando.

2) This is what interested me about the article and the system. Different stick fighting systems abound around the world i.e. Hanbo in Japan, there is an Irish system and an english system (I read about them in an interesting article in Dragon Times a while back). And I'm sure a lot of others. And yet while they'll have techniques in common they are very different.

And yet this system seemed to share alot more in common to the FMA. Which per the authors view comes from the Spanish influence. If this is the case than perhaps the Spanish had a bigger influence on the FMA than is sometimes taught?

3) In the photo sequences 2 & 4 the techniques showed them switching the weapon in their hands. It brought up an interesting concept that I had not really thought of before. (I had seen GM Remy do this and even practicing his Tapi T api drills I have done this. So the idea of switching was not foriegn as much of the concept protrayed of when they switched them was what intrigued me.)

FWIW. Lets say a person is feeding a low back hand to your knee. (One player has the weapon in their right hand, and the defender has their weapon in thier left hand) In the photos they show the defender stepping in towards to strike (dodging it) as they switch the weapon into their right hand, thereby striking behind the force of the strike (palis palis, or going with the force) instead of meeting the force head on.

I thought this was an interesting way of defending this angle of attack. (This was photo sequence 4)

4) Funny thing you mention the square foot work. In the article they mention the footowrk is based on a square called "Cuadro literally translates "to square". Arrange four squares two by two, and a cross is formed in the middle." Which is what the footwork looks like a cross. However my impression of it was that it looked like triangluar pattern in that draw a line diagonally from one coner of a square/rectangle to the other and you form a triangle. But then just seeing the photos and not the system in action gives me a very limited view.

All in all again the article was to short to give you but just a brief introduction into the system. I just thought I'd post about it to find out if anyone else knew more about the system and to try and gain a better understanding of it.

Thanks for the comments
Mark

[Silat Junkie]

Hola Mark and Mike;

As a few of you know, I have been studying Garrote with Bruno for about 5 years now, going on 6 (I think...) and I can tell you that the footwork pattern is definately a cross. Other than the first step within the cuadro, the rest of the footwork is done 180 degrees to your last step. Additionally, as I wrote earlier on this forum, the garoteero does not rely on blocking and prefers to displace if at all possible, even to parrying. However, there are a few times when the garoteero will use a true block called a topa. In most other cases it is a combination of displacement and parrying or displacement and blocking or just displacement (the preferred method).

On another note, I have met a few other people who have been introduced to Garrote in the U.S. outside of those who were introduced by Bruno. Largely they don't practice it, but were researching the historical development of Garrote to Venezuela's history with African slaves. As I also mentioned in my previous posting, there is some rather large differences of opinions concerning the origins of Garrote.

Another interesting point of comparison to the FMA is the Garrote strikes. In Garrote, they use a similar type of angle system as the FMA, though initially I was taught it was different, upon seeing the entirety of it, it is nearly identitical. However, they use names for the striking angles that are sometimes associated with specific vital areas. For instance, Huevero (Egg breaker - take a guess), Corverro (Back of Knee), etc.

No double stick.
No stick and knife.
No knife and knife.

Later,
Sean

www.combat-silat.net

[The Boar Man]

Originally posted by Silat Junkie
Hola Mark and Mike;

1) As a few of you know, I have been studying Garrote with Bruno for about 5 years now, going on 6 (I think...) and I can tell you that the footwork pattern is definately a cross. Other than the first step within the cuadro, the rest of the footwork is done 180 degrees to your last step. Additionally, as I wrote earlier on this forum, the garoteero does not rely on blocking and prefers to displace if at all possible, even to parrying. However, there are a few times when the garoteero will use a true block called a topa. In most other cases it is a combination of displacement and parrying or displacement and blocking or just displacement (the preferred method).

2) On another note, I have met a few other people who have been introduced to Garrote in the U.S. outside of those who were introduced by Bruno. Largely they don't practice it, but were researching the historical development of Garrote to Venezuela's history with African slaves. As I also mentioned in my previous posting, there is some rather large differences of opinions concerning the origins of Garrote.

3) Another interesting point of comparison to the FMA is the Garrote strikes. In Garrote, they use a similar type of angle system as the FMA, though initially I was taught it was different, upon seeing the entirety of it, it is nearly identitical. However, they use names for the striking angles that are sometimes associated with specific vital areas. For instance, Huevero (Egg breaker - take a guess), Corverro (Back of Knee), etc.

No double stick.
No stick and knife.
No knife and knife.

Later,
Sean

www.combat-silat.net


Sean

Thanks for your response. Seeing the article on the system and from reading your post I wonder if you wouldn't mind answering some more questions. I numbered your paragraphs to use as reference.

1) When you take the first step it appears that it might be on an angle and then the rear foot is brought around. Would this be correct? Is the concept/the point to be to the side of the person, and is this body position used then to off balance the attacker/feeder? Or to strike/cut etc. etc. them.

2) Not having read any of your previous postings on the history of the system, where could I find those? Or would you mind telling us again? The article mentioned the Spanish occupying the country but it mentioned nothing that I remember about African slaves.

3) On the angles of attack/feeding angles, which system where they identical to, or was this a generalized statement? In the FMA every system can have their own numbering patterns which is why I'm asking the questions.

Lastly from someone who studies the art, do you train the switching of the weapon in the hands such as I described in my last post? Is this used as a method of parrying/redirecting the strike/slash instead of blocking force to force?

Oh one thing else in the article the author descibed how they taught the evasion of the strikes, I think it was head first and the body then the feet last. I had been taught to move with the hips or the whole body as one (this is probably more so from my karate/TKD background then really my FMA training), so I've been trying to envision what the author was meaning. Could you shed some light on this for me?

Thanks for your time
Mark

[Silat Junkie]

Mark,

I have kept the numbering and added numbers to those items you didn't number.

1] Your understanding is correct. You start facing in a line and as a strike comes to the crown of your head you do move the lead foot on a forward angle to the outside of the attack (for the Franco drill depicted in the article). It is a short step but it is not the first thing to move. The head should be first or simultaneous with the foot. The point is to be to the outside of this attack and countering it. (Probably more of a chop than a cut per se since we are talking about machete - think... no arm.)

2] Here is the original posting http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=118521#post118521

I don't really feel like I am qualified to talk with any sincerity or depth about it since I am not a historian...

3] I did not say they were identical at any time. I said "similar type of angle system" meaning not identical, or not necessarily even close, but that it uses a related type of system for identifying angles of attack and vital structure. I have studied FMA through a Kuntao system, through the Inosanto/La Coste system, Guro W. Hock Hochheim and a bit of Guro Ernesto Presas so I am a bit familiar.

4] In most cases, the switch of hands is such that it usually enhances the body displacement but should not be seen as a necessary component. It also typically, sets up the immediate counter attack.

5] Concerning the body displacement method, you've got it right. Move the head, move the mass, then move the legs [If it's a head shot]. Kind of like a wave of movement, though they are not entirely separate, that is the basic gist of the thing. In Garrote, the stick comes fast and if you try to move the entire package each time, you WILL get hit since we are not relying on blocking. Therefore, the targeted area moves first and everything else follows. That is the primary difference between what I have seen in most FMA and most martial arts generally - the exception being silat. When you attack do you move the whole body or do you first launch the tool and then drive it in with the body? [This is rhetorical please don't answer it. Now, flip it over, and from a defensive situation {if you couldn't block} how would you move quickly enough not to get hit.]

Hope this helps.
Sean

[arnisador]

I find the footwork/movement discussion very interesting!

In switching hands, do you also occasionally use a two-handed swing?

[moromoro]

is it drill based??

i know you have names for certain strikes, but how about the defenses, what are the main defenses against the main strikes??

also some FMA are very very different from others....

also sean is it also very quick to learn like the FMA...


thanks

terry

i havent seen the article yet we are still on the first issue here.

[Silat Junkie]

Hello;

This will reply to the last two posts...

First, please read this: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...8521#post118521

I posted this awhile back and it answers a few of these questions.

There are no names for the defenses that I am aware of. They are considered a "set" of both offense and defense in that regard, but the "named" portion of that set is the hit or the angles.

Yes, I realize that there are differences amongst the FMA and as I posted, there are differences amongst the various Garrote lineages.

It's pretty quick to learn but takes a long time to get good at.

I have never seen a two-handed swing. Normally the free hand is being used to deliver a palm heel strike, slap, or trap the assailants weapon hand.

For some really REALLY out of date web pages on the system that I made early on in my training go here. http://rajasterlak.silat.4mg.com/garrote/training.html
This page shows the first basic drill you learn. Some of the spelling is very wrong since I don't speak Spanish. The site is dead and will not be updated. I am however, thinking of posting another more complete version of this site. It's a thought in process....

[The Boar Man]

Originally posted by Silat Junkie
Mark,


3] I did not say they were identical at any time. I said "similar type of angle system" meaning not identical, or not necessarily even close, but that it uses a related type of system for identifying angles of attack and vital structure. I have studied FMA through a Kuntao system, through the Inosanto/La Coste system, Guro W. Hock Hochheim and a bit of Guro Ernesto Presas so I am a bit familiar.



Sean

Sorry for the misunderstanding on the angle system question. I think I understand now what you mean. You said you trained with Hock and GM E. Presas ever been to Texas/OK camps with GM or Hock, if so we might have crossed paths.

Anyway I checked on the thread you posted in your later posts and it's been dropped or at least I couldn't access it.

Thanks for your responses to my questions. Do you have the article in the JAMA? If so could I ask you some more questions on it?

Mark

[Silat Junkie]

Mark,

No problem about the angles stuff.

I have not been to his OK or TX camps. I actually stopped training with him years ago when I began to get focused on silat more and more. I trained with him when he was near me in Milwaukee and Chicago.

The thread address i gave previously didn't work, but I checked this one and it definately worked this morning.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=7018&goto=newpost

I do have the article.

Sean

[thekuntawman]

you know before i pay any more attention to these "newly discovered" ancient arts, i want to know more about the background of the major players of those art. why i say this, because every "newly discovered" art i have seend so far, are promoted by somebody who already had a background in another art, and then they saw a book about some ancient lost art of _____ european art, now he "uncovered" the secret.

some example are the the greek "mu tau" kickboxing guy, the italian knife only martial artist (who was a student of dan inosanto), which i thought was funny to see italian "sinawali" drills, since the filipinos got there martial arts from spanish invaders. oh, and irish double stick fighting, which you can read about in a book, but the masters are old eskrima arnis kali students. lets see, then there is jkd based savate fighters and la canne masters, roman (????wtf???) gladiator style fighting, lets you know he watches movies, scottish fighting (discovered from mel gibson movies, surely), and superior pre-black people dominated era boxing.

pride can help a persons creativity, especially if he wants to reject his asian martial arts roots.

so a venezuelan art, which venezuala is nothing but a political colonial lines around south america, i dont buy it. i bet if you look at the background of the master, he was a student of asian master so in so.

i think the biggest influence spanish had to filipinos is that they forced people to learn there language and practice the religion and change names. and that they motivated people to develop there killing style more effective.

[Silat Junkie]

Kuntawman;

You speak pretty disrespectfully of something that you know little about. Your ignorance is overwhelming.

However, regardless of your ignorance, egocentricity, and bias, I will tell you that the art of Garrote Larense has been around for much longer than you. When exactly it was created or began its formation is unknown. If they new when it was created exactly, they would also have a pretty good idea where it was primarily derived from. However, it is NOT a "newly discovered" ancient art.

It has been around so long that it is part of the national celebration of St. Anthony (the patron saint of Venezuela) which takes place every June (by everyone in Venezuela) and is followed by a processional known as El Tamunangue. The Tamunangue is comprised of a ritualized combat/game known as La Batalla and seven other unique dances. (I have several of these on video tape but don't even think about asking me to see them since you are so disrespectful.)

Additionally, Juego de Garrote and La Battalla can be found in several regions of Venezuela: Larense, Barquismeto, and Sanare. In particular, the La Battalla of Barquismeto is very combative where it is said, that the Patron Saint is not happy unless the Jugodores battle hard enough to nearly draw blood. They must also fight until both participants are disarmed.

Additionally, there are national publications such as the "El Juego Del Garrote" booklets which were created by the Fundacion Escuela De Garrote Tocuyano, and several books written by such notable Jugadores as Maestro Eduardo Sanoja. I have a copy of at least one of the books (I am told there were two) and one of the booklets. Additionally, I have footage of Maestro Sanoja's famed teacher "El Viejo" Mercedes and of another famed Maestro, Felix Garcia, both in their 80's.

So to summarize,
*The whole of Venezuela is conspiring against some asian master or for some Venezuelan
*The different lineages of Juego de Garrote are fraudulent and conspiratorial OR spontaneously decided to formulate this idea without any basis what-so-ever and just happen to be similar

OR
* Your are totally clueless

hmmmm.... such choices.

So in your vast knowledge I suppose you also know nothing of Palo Canario? or Palo de Trinidad either?

Pride can also blind a person from seeing what is around them...

My apologies to everyone else, but this person who wont even sign their own writings is rude.

[Cruentus]

On the one hand, there are a lot of rip-off artists out there who study a cluster F*** of asian arts, then try to package and sell there limited knowledge in the form of some rediscovered hidden exotic art. I've seen the videos for sale, and yes, this is crap.

On the other hand, you cannot assume that this Venezualan stick fighting art is fraudulent until sufficient evidence is provided to prove this. To make the assumptions without the evidence isn't a good idea, in my opinion.

Respectfully,
PAUL
:asian:

[thekuntawman]

first i did not say that i assume that the venzuelan art is fraud or recently made up. what i said was i wait before i believe anything now, because of what i seen of "little known arts". i do not waste my time saying what is fraud until i see it.

but concerning what i do say is fake or who is fake, i dont think the arts are always made up. especially when there is a book that confirm that this art existed 100s of years ago, or whatever. but where something sounds fishy to me, is when a jujitsu and arnis (or hsing yi/ba gua/arnis) man, "discovers" some arts that is little known about, and say's, look how similar this art is to jujitsu and arnis! (or hsing yi/ba gua/arnis) etc.

but silat junkie, from the way you jumped at me, i can tell you have little experience in the arts, or perhaps you are just a "seminar junkie" instead surely. to just jump in there and start to throw insults when i said nothing about your art or your teacher, i believe you have low self esteem. you should do something about that.

i will say this again. if i see that the major players in this venezuela art has no background in anything similar to what he is teaching now, then i will probably be convinced. but who cares what i think anyway, the bottom line is, does this art work or not. i would think since you have an interest in the philippine arts, you would appreciate our philosophy about the art. and one thing is, you want people to doubt what you do, so you get the opportunity to prove that it does. unless, of course, you dont think that you can, then i can see why your mad.

[pesilat]

to just jump in there and start to throw insults when i said nothing about your art or your teacher

While you didn't directly say anything, I can see where SJ inferred that you were speaking about his instructor and the Venezuelan art given that that is the subject of this thread.

Perhaps you should have started a new thread to address your (apparently) tangential train of thought.


To address something said by SJ:

My apologies to everyone else, but this person who wont even sign their own writings is rude.

Actually, kuntawman does sign his posts. He signs them with a website. If you go to the website, you'll find info about his school and his background.

Mike

[Silat Junkie]

theKuntawman;

Well perhaps you didn't mean this line you wrote:
"so a venezuelan art, which venezuala is nothing but a political colonial lines around south america, i dont buy it. i bet if you look at the background of the master, he was a student of asian master so in so."

However, because you wrote it, I assume you meant it, and since that constitutes saying something about my teacher and the art, I am more than justified in calling you on it ESPECIALLY because I am in the arts.

Perhaps you should think a bit more and talk a bit less.

Sean

[pesilat]

Now ... putting on my MOD cap:
This thread has, overall, been very informative and productive. There's been a hiccup the past few days that seems to have been a misunderstanding (something this medium is, unfortunately, infamous for). Let's try to put that behind us and return to the fruitful discussion that was going on and keep things civil and friendly all the way around, eh?

- Mike Casto -
- MT Moderator -

[thekuntawman]

two years ago i was approached by this guy, who is a advance student of garrote venzuela stick fighting. he had this long list of styles he did, but he wanted to learn the combative part of stickfighting, to make his "garrote" more complete. he spent such a long time telling me how different the art is from the philippine styles, but when i got to meet him, guess what, all i saw is seminar FMA.

here is something i copied from a site, which also spent a lot of time telling us, "this aint FMA"

"Garrote is trained in a similar manner as Kali. It uses two-man drills primarily.

The list of drills is long but they consist of give-and-take drills. (From what I have seen and learned.)

Below is a partial list of the drills:

Franco Drill
Reverse Drill
Puyah Drill
Barrikampo Drill
Atravesado Drill
Pezcuesero-Puescueso Drill

To give an example: See Movie to left.


A. Strikes in a downward manner to B's head. (Franco Strike)


B does a Turning Step with open hand parry to avoid (putting him to the outside of the attackers arm) and then delivers his own Franco Strike.


This continues until you get tired or dizzy :-)
This should be performed on a Cross Pattern."

hmmm, sounds like seminar FMA to me....

anyway, here is the site i saw, decide for yourself http://rajasterlak.silat.4mg.com/garrote/garrote.html

its not the site of the guy who came to sac, but i know its the same style. now, is the master from venezuela a student of FMA, maybe not. but i know that there is a lot of people using philippine techniques in these "exotic art". last week one of my students went to a new school 10 minutes from me, who teaches "korean stick fighting". its not dan bong, it was seminar FMA in disguise. and you know what, he spent all his time telling him how different they are from arnis, but do sinawali. when somebody likes to talk down a style so much but everything they do looks like that style (hoch vs FMA, etc) it makes me go hmmmm...especially when they come to fma people to say it, especially when they study FMA.

by the way i did not take the garrote student.

fyi, many filipinos call there art and sticks, garrote.

[Silat Junkie]

theKuntawman;

I'm not sure why I am wasting my breath on you, but for everyone else's benefit...

First off, there are probably less than 50 people in the U.S. who actively train in Garrote.
1. Myself (a few of my students)
2. Bob Orlando (and some of his students)
3. Richard Merritt (and a few of his students)
4. Whoever Bruno teaches when he is in Miami

So, there are no advanced students in the U.S. Period.

Second, Garrote is very combative once you get past the basic Cuadro drills and start doing drills such as Vista, Mezquino, and Free Garrote. I have never seen the Jugadores use any type of safety equipment even at full speed.

Third, that site you quoted is mine and the very first line you quoted states that they are trained in a similar manner as Kali. Additionally, I wrote this as well on the same site:

"Garrote Larense is relatively unknown worldwide. It is a stick/knife fighting art. More correctly a Machete/knife art. While it is closely related to Kali of the Phillipines it is very distinct in its style and methods."

and again,

"Garrote Larense does not use angles as do the Filipino styles. Rather, they use specific strikes and defenses for them. Although the strikes are specific attacks, they are indirectly related to and similar to the angle systems of Arnis or Escrima."

However, I have come to conclude that it is more similar than I once believed, which I stated in my very first posting. (The website you chose to quote is nearly 5 years old and hasn't been updated for nearly 4 years I would imagine.)

and lastly,

"Garrote's primary principle is to avoid. It seeks to evade attacks via footwork and parries, rather than block them with the stick/machete.

This is extremely different from the Kali that I have studied which seems to rely on a combination which favors the stick as the tool for blocking."

This is still accurate and probably one of the main differences between the FMA that I have studied and Garrote, additionally, the training of the footwork differs quite a bit too IMO. I realize that there are Palis-palis drills in FMA, but you must understand, that the majority of training in Garrote is done this way and only occasionally is blocking used.

Additionally, I have never "spoken down about the FMA", quite to the contrary, however, you have repeatedly "spoken down" about Garrote, which you have never studied and apparantly not even seen. The worst you can say is that I have compared the two, but NEVER have I "spoken down about the FMA" nor have I ever "spoken down" about your teacher or lineage.

FYI, Garrote is the Spanish word for stick, a language spoken in Venezuela... Hmmmmm, maybe FMA came from Garrote? (To use your "logic".)

With all of this said, I have never claimed that I have studied ALL FMA and I say that directly on the site. I therefore, cannot say that Garrote differs from ALL FMA, but it does differ from the FMA that I have studied which is exactly what I have said. However, since you have never trained in Garrote or apparantly even seen it, how is it that you feel you can speak with authority about what it is or isn't?

Please, I am begging you, speak less and think more!

[moromoro]

with the growing popularity of garrote larense, there could today or in the near future be phonies popping up with no real backgroud in GL (but are rejects in the FMA) who may claim to be masters of GL.

i think this is possible in the near future, look at all the karate, taekwondo guys who wore a black uniform in the 80's and claimed they where ninja!!!!

might be possible, something which the real practitioners might have to watch out for...


terry

[haumana2000]

yo Silat Junkie, Juego de pau
estilo canario... Canary Island Stickfighting eh???

Canary islands, n. atlantic.

Ding, ding, ding, what do we have for him johnny!!!!

do I get $200 and get to pass go?

LOL! just sittin eating popocorn, enjoying the show. this forum has really been on the explosive end lately.

[The Boar Man]

Originally posted by moromoro
with the growing popularity of garrote larense, there could today or in the near future be phonies popping up with no real backgroud in GL (but are rejects in the FMA) who may claim to be masters of GL.

i think this is possible in the near future, look at all the karate, taekwondo guys who wore a black uniform in the 80's and claimed they where ninja!!!!

might be possible, something which the real practitioners might have to watch out for...


terry

Terry

Have you seen a growing popularity of Garrote Larense in your part of the world? Cause frankly other than the article I saw in JAMA and this forum I haven't seen anything about it here in the states.

Along with this Mike in his first post on this thread said he had seen this art in a short demo by possibly the instructor who brought the art here to the states. And Sean did create a website that was/is several years old that features GL. But it doesn't seem like this is a lot of exposure or a big surge of popularity in the system.

Mark

[Silat Junkie]

Hello Terry and Mark;

THough you didn't actually write your question to me, I thought I would also tell you that in August of '97 I think it was featured in IKF Magazine by Bruno as well. I believe I still have the article, but I'm not exactly sure if it was '97...

Just FYI.

I would also say, that it's popularity in Venezuela is o.k. (meaning it doesn't have a huge following) but outside of Venezuela it's little known.

Sean

[The Boar Man]

This is one question that upon looking/reading the article and noticing the similarity/commonality between Garrote Larense and the FMA I began to think about.

1) Did the Spanish have more of an influence on the FMA than we give them credit for?

We will debate on this forum the meaning of Datu, rank, Kali is it the mother art or not, etc. etc. etc. which are all more or less meaningfull to X amount of people. We speak of learning the history of the FMA and the culture of the Philippines etc. etc. etc. so I ask (respectfully) Terry, Kuntawman, and anyone else, did the Spanish have a large influence on the FMA?

Because here we have two arts that are seperated by a wide body of water across the globe and we all can see the similarity between the FMA and GL. In fact people on this thread have even implied that GL looks like seminar FMA, or that the master of the system had probably learned some other asian martial art (from an asian master). Don't get me wrong but this appears to be the opinon/attitude/or thought that only in the Philippines could we have stick fighters, or that only asians could develop MAs.

With respect
Mark

[The Boar Man]

Sean

Man that was quick, I posted my last question and you had already responded to my previous post. Anyway thanks for the information on the article, I'll look and see if I have that one or if sometime I can get it.

Mark

[The Boar Man]

Sean

One question from the pictures of the article, it appears the practioners start in a pretty close range. Does Garrote Larense have a long distance fighting techniques (such as in largo mano in the FMA), or is it a realitivly close/medium range art?

This might sound wierd but the movement of the head then body then feet, I can see what you mean by moving in that order when you are close in. But in trying to picture it I keep seeing the head movement such as Chris Rock has in one of the scenes where he is showing Jackie Chan his moves in the car or something. Is this close, the idea, or concept?

Thanks for your responses (I chose to hang back a while while the other discussions were going on).

Mark

[Cruentus]

When two cultures are in the same place for an extended period of time, they will merge together to a degree. It is inevitable. So, I believe that the probability that spanish fencing and filipino tribal arts mixed together a bit is very high. There was probably developement just from eskrimadors having to learn how to defend the spanish, and vice versa. I think that eskrima would look very different today if it didn't have spanish influence.

So the likelyhood that there would have been some spanish sailors who knew some hybrid form of eskrima, and then brought what they knew to South America where it further developed into its own unique system seems very likely and logical to me. Perhaps it just "stuck" in Venezuela more so then the other south american countries.

How about other blade related systems in South America? Anybody here about those?

[Silat Junkie]

Hello Mark,

Largely what I have seen has been Medio and Cerca ranges. Essentially, with arm extended the tip of the stick striking the adversary. Sometimes a bit closer, sometimes a bit farther. They also utilize empty hand strikes within the use of the stick so largely it may fall into what most people call Cerca (though as a silat and kuntao player predominately, close range to me is pretty close).

The head movement is similar to that, though there is no return movement and the body immediately follows it.

In response to Paul's post, it certainly could have happened that a Spanish sailor may have brought Kali to Venezuela,

*or it could have been a completely independant development,
*or it could have been influenced by the natives of Venezuela who utilize sticks, clubs, and machete as well as a method of combat,
*or it could have been influenced by African Slave stick fighting as many believe.
*or it could have been created out of Spanish swordfighting without any influences at all
*or it could have been any combination of these or ALL.

Contrary to how most people seem to think, I don't believe for one minute that any one culture has a hold on martial arts movements or principles. For sure a culture defines how these elements are developed and trained but it seems conceivable to me that similar arts could develop independantly just by having a similar influence - simply out of necessity, since "necessity is the mother of invention."

Just my thoughts on the subject and I don't necessarily expect people to agree.

Sean

[The Boar Man]

Sean Paul

Thanks for the input.

Sean
I agree with your post that it could have been any number of things that influenced the creation of the stick fighting systems of GL.

There are many different stick fighting systems in the world and they all to some extent use the same techniques, there is a commonality between them, is what I'm trying to say. However the stickfighting systems of the Irish (from what little I've read about and it is just a little) or the use of the Hanbo in the JMA systems, doesn't have the same look or feel to them as in the way the similarities between GL and the FMA.

(In response to Paul)
I don't agree with the idea that Spanish sailors who knew Kali might have brought the system to Venezula, rather I think you might have had two similar cultures who due to being occupied by the same country/culture created a similar (yet different) martial system to defend themselves against an common enemy.

Mark

[moromoro]

hi mark

sorry for the late reply


so I ask (respectfully) Terry, Kuntawman, and anyone else, did the Spanish have a large influence on the FMA?

to answer your question, this is my view it is primarily on a different school of thought.

Culturally the spanish influence on the philippines was huge, no one can dispute this. in the martial arts however we have many people saying no it was minimal, they say this with out much evidence. i truly believe the arts from mindanao and in particular the sulu archipelago are the closest we have that have no influence from the spanish.

However Eskrima i believe has more influence from the spanish (europe) than anything. an example i can talk about is the Navarro system GM Carlos Navarro's grand father Mariano was portugese he may have come to cebu at a young age, his system of staff fighting he named De lyabe has many similarities to the portuguese stick fighting, this is what i have found.
this is only one subsystem of one art however.



Have you seen a growing popularity of Garrote Larense in your part of the world? Cause frankly other than the article I saw in JAMA and this forum I haven't seen anything about it here in the states.

i mean with all due respect i believe it will grow in popularity, also people will scam to make a quick buck, who is stopping them from saying that they are true masters of GL when they have never learnt it and they know FMA. this is why i mean real practitioners and potential students may have to wacth out for phonies.


thanks

terry

[pesilat]

Originally posted by The Boar Man
(In response to Paul)
I don't agree with the idea that Spanish sailors who knew Kali might have brought the system to Venezula, rather I think you might have had two similar cultures who due to being occupied by the same country/culture created a similar (yet different) martial system to defend themselves against an common enemy.

While I, too, am inclined to agree with the simultaneous development theory, I'd like to point out that if there was any FMA influence, it probably didn't come from Spaniards, but rather from Pilipinos who were crew on the Spanish ships (from what I understand, the Spanish used a lot of Pilipino slave labor and mercenaries to crew their ships).

This type of argument is, IMHO, kind of moot, though. The roots predate any sort of written history, right? So it can't be proven at all. It's all conjecture. Was there an indigenous art? Probably. Was it influenced by the Spaniards? Probably. Was there FMA influence? Possibly. Did the Spaniards also take Venezuelans to the Philippines? Probably (to replace crewmembers who died or jumped ship). Did the Venezuelan stuff have any influence on the FMA? Possibly. But none of it is provable.

So, aside from a pointless academic debate, it has no real bearing on the martial art, right?

At least, that's my take on the subject (and other subjects like it that pop up over and over and over again in the MA).

Mike

[moromoro]

While I, too, am inclined to agree with the simultaneous development theory, I'd like to point out that if there was any FMA influence, it probably didn't come from Spaniards, but rather from Pilipinos who were crew on the Spanish ships (from what I understand, the Spanish used a lot of Pilipino slave labor and mercenaries to crew their ships).

well could the Pilipino influence (if there is any) be more recent.

i mean how well can the history of GL be traced??????


thanks

terry

[pesilat]

Originally posted by moromoro
well could the Pilipino influence (if there is any) be more recent.

i mean how well can the history of GL be traced??????


thanks

terry

Don't know ... have to ask a GL guy how far back they trace their history. But, even still, it's probably an oral tradition and unverifiable. So then it becomes a "he said/she said" situation. And is still, basically, pure conjecture.

Even written history (which was written by the victors and scholars) is often questionable ... but it's the only thing we've got to go from.

Mike

[Silat Junkie]

Hello All;

I would suggest (for those who speak and read Spanish fluently) that you could start with Garrote Larense's most notable social influence. La Batalla of El Tamunangue in the celebration of St. Anthony. I would imagine such a festival/celebration, as big as it is, has some place in written history. It may not go back to the start of Garrote, but it's a good starting point and may point to it's inclusion, development, etc.

Sincerely,
Sean

[arnisador]

I go with the convergent evolution theory also.

The similarities I suspect reflect the strong Spanish influence on both the FMA and the Venezuelan system.

[The Boar Man]

Originally posted by pesilat
While I, too, am inclined to agree with the simultaneous development theory, I'd like to point out that if there was any FMA influence, it probably didn't come from Spaniards, but rather from Pilipinos who were crew on the Spanish ships (from what I understand, the Spanish used a lot of Pilipino slave labor and mercenaries to crew their ships).

This type of argument is, IMHO, kind of moot, though. The roots predate any sort of written history, right? So it can't be proven at all. It's all conjecture. Was there an indigenous art? Probably. Was it influenced by the Spaniards? Probably. Was there FMA influence? Possibly. Did the Spaniards also take Venezuelans to the Philippines? Probably (to replace crewmembers who died or jumped ship). Did the Venezuelan stuff have any influence on the FMA? Possibly. But none of it is provable.
[B]

While I agree it probably isn't provable I was just trying to see what other people think.
[B]
So, aside from a pointless academic debate, it has no real bearing on the martial art, right?

At least, that's my take on the subject (and other subjects like it that pop up over and over and over again in the MA).

Mike

I agree this discussion has no real bearing on the systems of either the FMA or GL. On whether or not this is pointless debate I'm sorry if this is pointless to you, I was truly interested in other peoples opinons on the similarities between GL and the FMA and why they may/may not be similar.

I have read these type of discussions on other subjects TKD (for one) and while to me it would be hard to figure out who (chinese, japanese, okinawan, or korean) came up with such and such a kick, or joint lock etc. etc. and these tend to be pointless in my view. To others well, some people really research this out and know when this culture took over this culture and imposed their system of living over it etc.etc. to these individuals it is important to know their arts history to that degree. I was putting forth the question in hopes that maybe someone had some input on this.

Not knowing about Venezula's colonization (when or what conditions existed) I was hoping someone could shed some light on it. Did it occur before, during, or after the Philippine occupation etc. etc.? And maybe draw some conclusions from other people resposnes.

Mark

[The Boar Man]

Sorry the last post I had I really butchered Mike's post which I was quoting.

I tried to do the multiple quote thing like Dr. B and others use so that I wouldn't have a long quote and then reply. Anyway I screwed it up. Being a yellow belt newbie on this board what do you expect.

:D

Mark

[Silat Junkie]

Mark,

I have been told that both the Philippines and Venezuela were occupied at least partially during the same time periods by Spain. I haven't researched it myself and I don't recall what those time periods were...

Sean

[pesilat]

Originally posted by The Boar Man
I agree this discussion has no real bearing on the systems of either the FMA or GL. On whether or not this is pointless debate I'm sorry if this is pointless to you, I was truly interested in other peoples opinons on the similarities between GL and the FMA and why they may/may not be similar.

I have read these type of discussions on other subjects TKD (for one) and while to me it would be hard to figure out who (chinese, japanese, okinawan, or korean) came up with such and such a kick, or joint lock etc. etc. and these tend to be pointless in my view. To others well, some people really research this out and know when this culture took over this culture and imposed their system of living over it etc.etc. to these individuals it is important to know their arts history to that degree. I was putting forth the question in hopes that maybe someone had some input on this.

Valid points.

It just seemed to me that this thread had largely moved from being a fruitful discussion and into the realm of "I'm right and you're wrong ... so there."

Personally, I find the research into an arts history/origin to be valuable to understanding its roots. But when it becomes a couple of people saying (basically):

"System A is just a derivative of system B."
"No it's not. It's a separate entity."
"They're too similar to be separate."

Etc.

That debate gets tiresome (to me) pretty quickly and, IMO, leads nowhere.

But maybe I'm just overly sensitive. I don't know. I was just responding to the sense I got while reading through the thread ... and the sense I got was that it had gotten into a rather circular pattern with nothing really new coming into the mix and going nowhere fast.

If I jumped the gun, then I apologize. That's just the way it felt to me.

Mike

[Silat Junkie]

Hello Mike;

I cannot agree more completely with that sentiment! I personally was finding the discussion tedious... No offense to anyone who posted, even those I don't agree with.

[The Boar Man]

Originally posted by pesilat
Valid points.

It just seemed to me that this thread had largely moved from being a fruitful discussion and into the realm of "I'm right and you're wrong ... so there."

Personally, I find the research into an arts history/origin to be valuable to understanding its roots. But when it becomes a couple of people saying (basically):

"System A is just a derivative of system B."
"No it's not. It's a separate entity."
"They're too similar to be separate."

Etc.

That debate gets tiresome (to me) pretty quickly and, IMO, leads nowhere.

But maybe I'm just overly sensitive. I don't know. I was just responding to the sense I got while reading through the thread ... and the sense I got was that it had gotten into a rather circular pattern with nothing really new coming into the mix and going nowhere fast.

If I jumped the gun, then I apologize. That's just the way it felt to me.

Mike

Mike and Sean

I understand what you mean and I was trying to get information and opinons without it getting "I'm right so there", in fact when I asked about the similarities and the Spanish occupation I was trying to get away from that train of thought.

However be that as it may if this subject has totoally desinagrated into that level of discussion and if I have helped it get there please accept my apology because that wasn't my intent.

I thank you both for your input on the subject.

Mark

[Livio Girotto]

Hello:

I am a Jugador de Garrote (Instructor of Garrote Larense), with sixteen years of experience in the art that you choosed to call "Garrote Larense", and I rather call "El Juego del Garrote". I becamed very happy to see that there are some american folks interested in this contact discipline. I read every post written here, and I would like to tell you some things:

* Anyone that is skeptical about the seriousness of a discipline like the one we are talking about, or about its teachers, should not be considered an unrespectful person, because that is the approach that I will advice anybody to have. In the case of people like kuntawman, he is right when he does not trust anybody only by the things said, he wants to see the facts. Many martial schools, arts and instructors have been created for the satisfaction of the ego of those who claim to be the ones with the ability to teach.

* For those talking about filipino influence in Venezuelan Stick Fighting System, I would only ask them to find the name of a spaniard guy, registered in history, that had the chance to navigate to both sides of the world by those years, because I am pretty sure that they will never find not even a case. Filipino influence in el Juego del Garrote is ZERO. Whoever said that, is a filipino martial arts practitioner that had received a little bit instruction of Garrote, but wants to appear as an instructor, teaching a self made style.

* I studied the art with a Master called Mercédez Pérez, he died sixteen months ago, he was a beatiful human being, but he was nothing more than a peasant all his life, he never travelled to any place outside Venezuela, he did not have even attended elementary school, he was poor in money, the onliest martial art he saw (by tv), but never practiced, was western boxing. His art was pure, and I learned it that way from him. I have a lot of videos of him, and some of my training partner also have many. The venezuelan fighting art known as "el Juego del Garrote" is a very refined, and reliable art.

* As for me, I had the opportunity to train Kali here in Venezuela, I respect that art a lot, because I can see the efficiency that it has, but I never participated in not even one class, because I wanted to keep my stick fighting backgrund as clean as possible, to avoid coments like those that I had read at this forum. I trained Bujinkan Ninpo until I met Garrote Larense (3rd degree black belt), then I became involved with other martial arts like Free style wrestling and brazilian jiujitsu. As you could notice, no filipino, or any other kind of stick fighting training besides Garrote.

* Western martial arts are rich, just watch a MMA event like UFC, the predominant arts are boxing and wrestling, along with brazilian jiujitsu (a western interpretation of ancient japanese jiujitsu), russian Sambo, and the very asian Muay Thai. So, please, don't think that only asian cultures developed fighting arts.

* Venezuela is not the only southamerican nation that has stick, knife or machete fighting systems, but is a country that has a bunch of people keeping its martial art from fading away. One tip about Venezuela, is that it was the first spanish province to declare independence from Spain, hence, venezuelan had to fight a lot, later, when Venezuela became a free nation, venezuelans went to other spanish provinces to fight for their independence from Spain. Venezuelan warriors fought for generations, they didn't have bombs, or tanks, all they had were spears, blades and percussion weapon, isn't logical to guess that they mastered those weapons?.

* Contact me trough livio@garrotelarense.org, and visit my academy's web site: www.garrotelarense.org (http://www.garrotelarense.org).



Stay well,:ultracool

Livio Girotto

[Cruentus]

For those talking about filipino influence in Venezuelan Stick Fighting System, I would only ask them to find the name of a spaniard guy, registered in history, that had the chance to navigate to both sides of the world by those years, because I am pretty sure that they will never find not even a case. Filipino influence in el Juego del Garrote is ZERO. Whoever said that, is a filipino martial arts practitioner that had received a little bit instruction of Garrote, but wants to appear as an instructor, teaching a self made style.


I am pretty sure there are similarities between Venezuelan arts and Filipino arts.

I could more easily say that the Spanish fencing and fighting may have influenced the Filipino arts, as I do see similarities between the two. Spanish fighting systems undoubtedly influenced Venezuelan arts. So perhaps the similarities could be found there, depending on which Filipino system(s) we are refering too of course.

Yet, you never know what could have gotten transfered around and how. Spain occupied the PI from 1565 to 1898. During that time there is no doubt in my mind that Filipino fighting arts influenced Spanish fighting arts, and vice versa. The question is, could some of this stuff have migrated from PI to South America to Venezuela?

I would argue yes. Venezuela was first colonized in 1522 (Magellan died in 1521 in the Philippines ironically), and didn't gain independence until 1821. So there was a 256 years of total time where Spain occupied both the Philippines AND Venezuela. That is plenty of time for Filipino arts to have influenced Spanish arts AND for these influences to have travelled to Venezuela. It is a pretty fair hypothesis anyways; I'd bet with plenty of time and research we could find plenty of Spanish sailors who made the trip from the Filipines in the Pacific Islands to the Colombian coast(which as you know is Venezuela's neighbor) and vice versa. It is a known fact that plenty of Spanish sailors coming from the Spice Islands (and the Philippines) sailed to the Columbian Coast, around South America, stopping in Venezuela before heading back to Spain. It also known that many Filipino's worked on Spanish ships. So, I think there will be more similarities between the two arts then one might think.

Yet, I am sure your art is distinctly Venezuelan as well, despite any similarities. I for one would love to spend a little time in your art to see the differences and similarities for myself.

Yours,

Paul

[Guro Harold]

Hi Livio Girotto,

Welcome to MartialTalk and thanks for posting!!!

Palusut
MT Moderator