Why 'Chunners aren't good fighters...

[geezer]

You've all heard it. Especially if you bounce around on a lot of different forums. And, I think there is a lot of truth to it. Personally, I know some very scary and proficient WC/WT fighters. But they are in the minority, and they are not into sport competition. So they are not well known. As for why so many of the rest are not great fighters, I have read a lot of garbage. And I have my own ideas (more garbage?). Anyway, what do you think? C'mon... feed the troll!

[bully]

Don't think it's chunners that are the only martial artists that are thought of as "bad" fighters.

I find most Mcdojo/Mckwoons who are after making a fast buck turn out bad fighters.

It could be Karate, WC,Kick boxing, TKD whatever, if the students do not pratice sparring/pressure testing often enough then they will not be "ready" for a fight...or as ready as anyone can be without a crystal ball.

Also what do you mean by fighting?

Sparring with gloves and rules, if so, to whose or what styles rules?

Or a good old fashioned punch up in the street!!

I think it all depends on your Sifu and club, lets put it this way, there is a certain style of Karate which is practiced by one club here that I would NEVER train in.

If I went to the UK or US etc to watch the same style, I bet it would be a different story and I would be impressed by what I see.

Blame the Sifu, not the students...but we must also make the choice if we are not happy by voting with our feet. By that I don't mean kicking the Sifu :-)

[mook jong man]

If you come from a type of school that just does nice gentle rolling type of chi sau while you talk about what you did on the weekend as the bulk of your training then the chances are that you wont be a great fighter.

Realistic training means sometimes going outside of your comfort zone , a lot of people aren't willing to do that for whatever reason.
If you are doing the art primarily for self defence then you must be brutally honest with yourself and want to continually improve your speed , force and reflexes.

That means sometimes putting the head gear on and enduring the discomfort that comes from being hit in the head , it means a lot of sweat and sometimes blood.
But it is being able to endure that discomfort and still keep going , that is what forges your mental toughness , a quality that is needed in self defence situations.

Gentle chi sau will not prepare you for the reflex and physicality that is needed to repel a full on assault.
Along with the forms a good sized chunk of your training must be engaging in hard chi sau sparring with moderate to heavy contact to the body .

Drilling of your reflexes by training against all types of random attacks not just Wing Chun style attacks.
This must include grabs , punches from all angles , kicks from all angles , tackles , multiple opponents , basic groundfighting and unarmed against weapons.

Your deflections must sometimes be done against full force attacks in order to test their integrity so that any mistake can be worked on before you have to use it on the street.

When that first haymaker comes rocketing in is not a good time to discover that your angles are too close and your arm collapses under the force , that is assuming that you have even picked up on his body cues to get your arm up in time . Which could be the case if all you are used to is doing gentle chi sau and you haven't worked on your reflexes from out of contact range.

You must also do a fair bit of power training on various pieces of equipment such as kick shields , focus mitts, wall bag , heavy bag etc.
I think as long as you work on speed , force and reflex in your training as well as using a bit of common sense then you can become a decent fighter.

[geezer]

Don't think it's chunners that are the only martial artists that are thought of as "bad" fighters. I find most Mcdojo/Mckwoons who are after making a fast buck turn out bad fighters.

OK, so other TMAs have the same problem, or maybe worse. Still, if WC/WT has a "street-fighting" heritage, how come we don't produce more really tough guys. And as to what I mean by by fighting... take your choice. A really tough fighter can mix it up and take care of himself in a variety of environments. It's as much mentality as physique and technique.

[yak sao]

I think MA attract a lot of non fighters. People who have had sand kicked in their face by the town bully. So they sign up for a karate class to learn how to fight. And while their teacher can teach them technique, that "killer instinct" is a lot harder to impart.

I think that's why when you do get someone of the calliber of an Emin Boztepe, that's why they stand out. He is a lion among sheep. He would have been dangerous if all he learned was tiddlywinks. Now, he is on one extreme of the spectrum, and the mild mannered non fighter type is on the other extreme. I think everyone else falls somewhere in between.

Joining a MA class doesn't make you a fighter any more than walking into a garage makes you a car. I remember in my old Shaolin class. We had what we called the fighters and the theorizers.
We would be doing 2 man drills. And they (the theorizers) would want to stop and analyze every single movement and the psychology behind it and yada yada....used to drive me crazy. I would always tell them, do it a thousand times till your body knows it, then go theorize over a beer.

But to be brutally honest to myself, I wasn't a fighter before MA. But I remember my first kung fu class. It woke something up inside of me. And after years of hard work, I can honestly say a fighter was born that day. Not invincible, not unbeatable, but a fighter none the less.

[K-man]

Drilling of your reflexes by training against all types of random attacks not just Wing Chun style attacks.
This must include grabs , punches from all angles , kicks from all angles , tackles , multiple opponents , basic groundfighting and unarmed against weapons.
Isn't that the truth? I think that this applies to all MAs, not just WC, because of the competition thing. In real life it is unlikely an opponent is going to stand back in a kumite stance and throw a weak jab at your face. He will steam in, wear whatever you have to give and just go 'bang'. If your not prepared for that style of attack you will go down, champion kumite fighter or not. That is what annoys me in a number of places I have trained. They live in a land of dreams. No evidence of RBSD anywhere to be seen. :asian:

[zepedawingchun]

I think there are just as many fighters and non-fighter in Wing Chun as there are in other martial arts systems. It just appears there are more bad fighters in Wing Chun because WC has such a reputation as being a no nonsense, combat oriented, fast learning system. It's like being the fastest gun in the west, everyone wants to take a shot at you, knocking you down to see if they are faster. With Wing Chun, everyone wants to prove (outsiders of the system) it's not the best art to train. I just don't pay it any attention. I know the art for what it is, and it has made me a better fighter.

[zepedawingchun]

Realistic training means sometimes going outside of your comfort zone , a lot of people aren't willing to do that for whatever reason.
If you are doing the art primarily for self defence then you must be brutally honest with yourself and want to continually improve your speed , force and reflexes.

That means sometimes putting the head gear on and enduring the discomfort that comes from being hit in the head , it means a lot of sweat and sometimes blood.
But it is being able to endure that discomfort and still keep going , that is what forges your mental toughness , a quality that is needed in self defence situations.

. . . . Along with the forms a good sized chunk of your training must be engaging in hard chi sau sparring with moderate to heavy contact to the body .

Drilling of your reflexes by training against all types of random attacks not just Wing Chun style attacks.
This must include grabs , punches from all angles , kicks from all angles , tackles , multiple opponents , basic groundfighting and unarmed against weapons.

Your deflections must sometimes be done against full force attacks in order to test their integrity so that any mistake can be worked on before you have to use it on the street.

. . . . Which could be the case if all you are used to is doing gentle chi sau and you haven't worked on your reflexes from out of contact range.

You must also do a fair bit of power training on various pieces of equipment such as kick shields , focus mitts, wall bag , heavy bag etc.
I think as long as you work on speed , force and reflex in your training as well as using a bit of common sense then you can become a decent fighter.

Great post Mook Jong Man, you've hit the nail on ther head. Some students are natural born fighters, but a majority are not. As teachers, we have to push them and guide them, with what you have stated, to create the fighters our system is known for.

[zepedawingchun]

I think MA attract a lot of non fighters. People who have had sand kicked in their face by the town bully. So they sign up for a karate class to learn how to fight. And while their teacher can teach them technique, that "killer instinct" is a lot harder to impart. . . . .

. . . . Joining a MA class doesn't make you a fighter any more than walking into a garage makes you a car. I remember in my old Shaolin class. We had what we called the fighters and the theorizers.
We would be doing 2 man drills. And they (the theorizers) would want to stop and analyze every single movement and the psychology behind it and yada yada....used to drive me crazy. I would always tell them, do it a thousand times till your body knows it, then go theorize over a beer.

Yep, seen a few of those over the years. Hard to get them to forget about analyzing and just do the drills.

[geezer]

I think MA attract a lot of non fighters...

I think that's why when you do get someone of the calliber of an Emin Boztepe, that's why they stand out. He is a lion among sheep. He would have been dangerous if all he learned was tiddlywinks. Now, he is on one extreme of the spectrum, and the mild mannered non fighter type is on the other extreme. I think everyone else falls somewhere in between.

Yak, you hit the nail on the head. I agree. And I think one reason why a lot of 'chunners "can't fight" is that WC/WT is such a sophisticated system that it naturally appeals to those you call "theorizers". In these times, the natural fighters often don't even study martial arts. They just pick up the skills they need through experience. If they do train, they tend to go into boxing, MMA, muay thai, or something similar. WC/WT is too exotic, too slow, and perhaps too cerebral for a lot of these guys. And a lot of WC/WT sifus, although technically proficient and capable of defending themselves, are not fighters at heart. A natural fighter like Emin Boztepe or Victor Gutierrez will spot this the moment they walk in the door, and probably won't hang around. So those who do stick with it and become the next generation of si-hings and sifus are generally not from the fighting end of the spectrum, as you described it.

Now of course, what I've described above is a gross generalization. There are some really tough guys in WC/WT. But by and large getting the best fighters to stick with WC/WT in America is about as hard as getting the country's best athletes to stick with soccer. A lot of kids love soccer in middle school, but by high school the best athletes generally end up in football, basketball, or baseball. Fighters probably end up in hockey. And now there's growing interest in MMA. Face it, at least here in the US, WC/WT attracts intelligent eccentrics. And some, like you, Yak, discover that there actually is a fighter inside. As for myself, it's back to theorizing!

[bully]

This guy has done a whole series, he makes some very interesting points...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjGuWxwfrl4

I am just watching the rest, will comment some more later.

[Tensei85]

To be honest,

I would say this if you want to be a good fighter, you have to fight.

It's the same as if you want to be a good demonstrator of Tao Lu then you have to spend massive amounts of hours in that activity.

Drills are not fighting, Chi Sau is not fighting, forms is not fighting.

Do they help prepare you for fighting (da jiang) based on mechanics & attributes than I would say definitely but its still not the same activity.

Another brief example if you look at Wing Chun Fighter such as Wong Sheun Leung or William Cheung or others not to get too politically involved by mentioning names. Every weekend they would go to a Lei Tai, and fight.

I think as you guys mentioned previously most of us spend too much time in Wing Chun as a past time or hobby as opposed to getting out there and refining our skills with Lei Tai, Da Jiang, San Da whatever...

[bully]

This guy has done a whole series, he makes some very interesting points...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjGuWxwfrl4

I am just watching the rest, will comment some more later.


Well I have now watched a few more and whilst the WC isnt that great (they admit to being novices) It does advocate more "real" drilling against opponents. Also plenty of sparring and make sure your partners in drills are not making it easy for you.

I have seen in classes along time ago, when a Sifu is showing a technique, the student is almost subservient trying to please Sifu and can over act.

Not just in WC by he way.

I would prefer the technique to go wrong now and again just to show it can and what to do if it does. It also shows the even the best can make errors etc.

So as long as WC'rs spar and do lots of real world drills, I think they make good fighters. The problem being that Wing Chun isn't known for competitions. I am to old for all that now but back in the day I did want to compete but my Sifu advised against it as the only comps here were Karate. He said we would probably get disqualified.

Now that may sound small minded, but I watched him in a Karate comp and he was disqualified for low kicks.

[bully]

One last thing from me, Animal day, pressure testing the martial arts by Geoff Thompson is a very good read.

[mook jong man]

I have seen in classes along time ago, when a Sifu is showing a technique, the student is almost subservient trying to please Sifu and can over act.

Not just in WC by he way.

That certainly does occur , no doubt about it , but it can also happen the other way as well.
I don't class myself as a sifu , but I remember as an instructor sometimes demonstrating counters to arm grabs. You would pick the biggest guy in the group to demo on and usually they were beginners and new to the school and not quite yet sold on the idea of Wing Chun.

But they had been taught the technique a few times before by other instructors , so already you have lost the element of surprise.
They would grab as hard as they could and resist you in such away that you couldn't apply the technique trying to make you look an arse in front of everybody.

But that was ok I just changed the direction of my force and used a different technique , explaining " That if he resists like that then you do this".
But that sort of thing is alright it makes you improve as a Wing Chun exponent and makes you apply the principles under pressure.



I would prefer the technique to go wrong now and again just to show it can and what to do if it does. It also shows the even the best can make errors etc.

Thats exactly right , and the skill is in knowing how many ways it can go wrong.
If all your used to is half arsed attacks then you never have to think and come up with a plan b , plan c or even plan d because your technique has worked perfectly all the time and never been tested .

[KamonGuy2]

Oh dear.........
First off, I am fortunate to live in london where I am surrounded by some excepional wing chun practitioners and fighters. Kevin chan (my master) is known on many forums as a very very good fighter and general hard guy!
Others include James Sinclair, Alan Orr, Alan Gibson, Shaun Rawcliffe, the list goes on...
Wing chun is often viewed as a wimpy art because chunners rarely get into the cage or into sport formats and that seems to be the judge of how good an art is nowadays. People forget how many rules exist in UFC and cage competitions. In a real fight a simple poke in the eye can sometimes end the fight! So I don't really judge arts by that kind of standard

Speaking as someone who has been in the cage and been in knockdown events, wing chun is a very pragmatic, practical, realistic and useful art to learn. True there are some bad teachers out there (people know my feelings on William Cheung and Benny Meng), and it is often the politics of wing chun that puts people off. Bad promo clips on youtube don't help (there are some really really bad ones). There is also a lot of chunners who describe wing chun as the deadliest art etc and wrap it up in an air of mystery. So it loses credibility.

The thing is that many arts use conditioning as their sole method of getting good or they rely on rules. Whilst there is no doubt that cage fighters are great fighters, in order to get to that level you would have to train 6 hours a day every day and be willing to get bruised and battered on a continual basis
Most people are not willing to do this, so they choose an art that will work without having to train relentlessly for hours a day
Wing chun is such an art. If you compared ANY martial artist in relation to how much training they did to how good they are, you would struggle to find better than wing chun

For example if you asked a boxer how much he/she trained, they would probably say more than twice a week. Pro boxers would probably be training every day

A chunner can be very good by training twice a week

I know guys who have handled themselves well in defence situations, and they only trained once or twice a week

Please remember though that it is often the individual that makes a great fighter as opposed to the art.

[matsu]

kg-"Please remember though that it is often the individual that makes a great fighter as opposed to the art. "

aint that the truth,when i did karate we had a few great "technicians" who could perform the drills and katas perfectly but when sparring they were hopeless at using what they were so good at,-mostly cos they were scared of getting hurt.
and then we had a few guys who were not that "polished" but were deadly with the few moves they had down to a tee and if you werent careful they could knock you out.
ive found this not to be the same in wing chun but i know i,m very lucky with the sifu(s) i have and the way they teach.
its very practical very fight orientated or self defense, and sifu said last night to the beginners class about they had arrived at the point where they were gonna get bruised from now on in, he expected correct but controlled contact to begin,if not ,.......join a dance group!!

the thing ive noticed more and more is that the guys that dont look much are the ones that could destroy you! and as beginners come thru they suddenly realise that they are not as tough or as good as they thought.
i personally am more scared of getting into a fight now than ever.gives me more incentive to talk my way out confidently because i know i wont prance around playing fistycuffs if it kicked off i would put the guy down quickly and as visciously as i can..... and i worry about the consequences afterwards!

what was the thread about again??? ive rambled on so much ive forgotten!!
but some of the new guys who join from other schools are so surprised when they get our training,it is so different and fight based.and perhaps there are too mnay people from those schools making the rest of us look like we cant fight. as sifu says if you lose a fight it want wing chun it was you not doing it very well!!
my tuppence of a rant
matsu

[yak sao]

OK, so WT,WC,VT can be too cerebral for its own good.

What do you all do to counter this? For example in WT we are very heavy into lat sao for the first few years of training.


Does anyone have any particular strategy, favorite drills etc that you'd like to pass along?

[Joab]

I think that is a load of nonsense! I trained at a Wing Chun school, Greenlake Martial Arts School in Seattle, Washington. The Sifu, John N. Beall, was one of the best fighters I have ever seen in my life. The school had full contact sparring, grappling, ever kind of kicking and punching bag imaginable. No, Sifu Beall didn't have any trophies in his school. That's because he was training us for the street where there are no rules, not sports competitions! I would put the Sifu and his students up against anybody. I had to work my butt off to keep up, as I was older and fatter than most of the students, but it was worth it, after all these years my straight punching still impresses people. It may be true "Chunners" don't do well in competitions, but who cares? What counts is what works out on the streets not a tournament with rules!

[blindsage]

But Greenlake Martial Arts School doesn't teach Wing Chun as most people think of it. John Beall was a student of James DeMille, who was a student of Bruce Lee's. Bruce Lee taught his modified (and incomplete) version of Wing Chun to James DeMille when he was in Seattle. James Demille developed his own system, Wing Chun Do, independently while keeping much of what he was taught by Bruce Lee and retaining a lot of Wing Chun concepts, but it is much different from Wing Chun. He even uses the title Sijo to reflect this. My understanding of Sifu John Beall's style is that it is his further personal modification of what he learned from James DeMille.

This in no way is intended to comment on the quality or effectiveness of what Sifu Beall teaches, I've been impressed with the few students of both Beall and DeMille that I've met, but it is not Wing Chun in the sense that the vast majority of chunners on here would think of it as, and should probably be taken into account when discussing the topic of 'Why Chunners aren't good fighters'.

[Joab]

But Greenlake Martial Arts School doesn't teach Wing Chun as most people think of it. John Beall was a student of James DeMille, who was a student of Bruce Lee's. Bruce Lee taught his modified (and incomplete) version of Wing Chun to James DeMille when he was in Seattle. James Demille developed his own system, Wing Chun Do, independently while keeping much of what he was taught by Bruce Lee and retaining a lot of Wing Chun concepts, but it is much different from Wing Chun. He even uses the title Sijo to reflect this. My understanding of Sifu John Beall's style is that it is his further personal modification of what he learned from James DeMille.

This in no way is intended to comment on the quality or effectiveness of what Sifu Beall teaches, I've been impressed with the few students of both Beall and DeMille that I've met, but it is not Wing Chun in the sense that the vast majority of chunners on here would think of it as, and should probably be taken into account when discussing the topic of 'Why Chunners aren't good fighters'.
Your right. It is a modern Wing Chun system, actually both are. But its what I have experienced. I took a more traditional
Wing Chun class once one time, it was too different, I dropped out.

[geezer]

OK, so WT,WC,VT can be too cerebral for its own good.

What do you all do to counter this? For example in WT we are very heavy into lat sao for the first few years of training.


Does anyone have any particular strategy, favorite drills etc that you'd like to pass along?

I'd like to see the WT Lat Sau drills put into a book. I never gained more than a spotty familiarity with them since they were developed by Keith Kernspecht's EWTO and integrated into the American WT system later when Emin came over. Back in the 80's when I trained under LT, he used to "pooh-pooh" the lat sau training as "some funny thing made up by the Germans". Well those same Germans can kick butt! The lat sau seems to be a great way to introduce early-on the techniques that traditionally came later in the WT Chi-Sau sections, using them in practical sparring applications.

Right now I'm still focusing an polishing up those Chi-Sau sections. They are sooo deep.

[Skubysnak]

WC is not a sport. If we were allowed to do what we are taught, then a bunch of busted up noses, chins and eyes would occur. MMA is a sport. They still fight with rules.

[yak sao]

[quote=geezer;1218623]I'd like to see the WT Lat Sau drills put into a book.


That's a fantastic idea.........anybody?

I've seen 3 versions. The German version, the Americanized interpretation of the German version and Emin's own program that was taught in EBMAS.
It's all good stuff, personally I would have to say I prefer Emin's.

[geezer]

[quote=geezer;1218623]I'd like to see the WT Lat Sau drills put into a book.


That's a fantastic idea.........anybody?

I've seen 3 versions. The German version, the Americanized interpretation of the German version and Emin's own program that was taught in EBMAS.
It's all good stuff, personally I would have to say I prefer Emin's.

OK, the guys I work out with locally include one guy that's at about 8th student grade and has a pretty good grasp of the "Americanized" version, and then there are a couple of Ebmas guys we see once in a while who are good at his version. From what I've seen, I'd agree that the Ebmas version is very good. After all, Emin is "the man" for fighting applications.

Unfortunately the politics of WT (as well as my own limited finances) make it impossible for me to train both with my current instructor and Ebmas. But if Emin ever puts out a DVD on lat sau, I'm buying it!

[Beginner's Mind]

If I understand this correctly, the original question is not "why (some) Chunners are bad fighters", but "why is Wing Chun perceived as bad by the MA community?"

The answer is simple: MMA. MMA has become the epitome of "realistic combat" and there are no celebrity fighters using WC as their primary art.

Whether WC is really weak and whether cage fights are realistic is here irrelevant. It's simply what people have come to believe.

Now, to tell the truth, I feel there's a lot of bad Wing Chun out there. As I mentioned before, my first Sifu made me believe all of WC was fake. It took me years to give this art another chance. And now I'm glad I did.

[bradtash]

i dont currently do wing chun but wish that i did.
i have seen MANY videos over the net where people do wing chun and are absolutely crap.... i think this is where the "bad fighter" stereotype comes from or at least this contributes to it. i have seen "sifus" teaching lessons and even they are not really fluent with the style and this is this biggest injustice to wing chun, how can a student be good if their instructor is not good. i have street fights where the person was a chunner and let me say they were DANGEROUS. within a few seconds they had completely dominated and had the other guy on the ground.
i m currently doing muay thai, but to be honest if i came across a chunner i would hesitate. we train extremely hard conditioning our bodies and train 4-5 a week, i think that that may be the only advantage a muay thai person may have over a chunner. but i have seen the sheer speed that you guys can produce and youse are taught many things ie punch kicks and takedowns.
if there was a wing chun school near where i live i would be enrolled immediately, unforunately for me the closest is over an hours drive away.
stereotypes aside, as mentioned earlier it is the fighter not the style.

[Poor Uke]

I've been doing WC for about 7 years. I dont claim any matery of the system but know it pretty well. I went along to a Judo club last year and got completely nailed. I also went to an Arnis club and quickly realised that if I 'did' WC against a knife welding attacker i would probably die.

I do know plenty of very good WC fighters but have noticed that they usually trained other martial arts as well and so understand WC in a different way to people who have only ever trained WC.

Which brings me to a point often overlooked. If WC needs additional training at what point is it no longer WC but something else. I see alot of WCers now cross training (which I do). It just seems the proper attitude to have.

I have never understood the arrogant attitude that some purists have. Its just plain folly IMO.

Anthoo thanks for listening that was my first post went well me finks :)

[geezer]

I've been doing WC for about 7 years. I dont claim any matery of the system but know it pretty well. I went along to a Judo club last year and got completely nailed. I also went to an Arnis club and quickly realised that if I 'did' WC against a knife welding attacker i would probably die.

Don't worry, it's not just WC/WT. If you go unarmed up against a knife wielding attacker, especially a determined attacker who knows what he's doing, you will probably die no matter what you study. Reality is a *****.

BTW I've studied a couple of systems of escrima/FMA. I'm not all that good, but my instructors were, and they agree with this. Be cautious about anyone who says different.


I see alot of WCers now cross training (which I do). It just seems the proper attitude to have. :)

Some branches of WC/WT are more combat oriented and give you a broader background than others. There is no problem if you choose a less combative or more narrowly defined school as long as you are aware of your limitations.

IMHO if you want to be street proficient, you must know your enemy. At the very least you need to cross train towards that objective. But you don't have to out BJJ the jujutsu guys, or out kick the muay thai guys. You do have to be prepared to deal with what they've got. And, in all honesty, I'm not there yet either. It's on my to-do list. Meanwhile I practice staying out of trouble!

[chisauking]

This thread is a wast of time & space -- unless someone has conducted an extensive study on all the wing chun practitioners around the world.

Everyone can fight when their lives depend on it -- the only question is, to what level, and using what 'tools'?

Bit like saying the French can't bake, or the English can't drive.

[Poor Uke]

This thread is a wast of time & space -- unless someone has conducted an extensive study on all the wing chun practitioners around the world.

Everyone can fight when their lives depend on it -- the only question is, to what level, and using what 'tools'?

Bit like saying the French can't bake, or the English can't drive.

I think you'll find that alot of people see martial artists stepping up and putting there money where there mouth is. To date WC hasnt dont that in a public arena and been successful IMO.

OK OK before I get aload of "yeah but in der str33t stuff" or "yeah well thats just a sport, in r34l!ty I would goge his eyes out". There have been many NHB competitions where WC practishers have been free to fight....

So yeah the burden of proof in on WC.

Like I mentioned earlier the most effective WC fighters I have come across cross train, simple!

[chisauking]

Ok, so where's the proof that MMA champions can fight when their lives depended on it? You can't provide any, can you? So, based on your flawed logic, they can't fight.

Derek Jones from wing chun use to challenge anyone to street fights, and he would go to your own club to fight you on his own.

Wong sheung leung fought people that were armed with knifes \ choppers. He had the scars on his forehead to prove it.

Leung Jan from Fut shan was reknown as one of the best fighters in Canton, and he'd never lost despite accepting all challengers, during a time when fight means a fight, when one's life is on the line.

Lam Man Hong has also fought the Thais, and won, and many other street fights with the traids in Hong Kong, and never lost.

Anyone wanting to prove that they can fight when their lives depend on it can always look me up. I can arrange for people to try I chop your arms & legs off in China, where life is worth very little.

If you really want to test whether wing chun people can fight, you WILL be able to find them......it's funny that people who say such silly things don't go out of their way to find them.

Of course, people can do it in a safe environment....but it's different when their life depends on it, lol.

[dungeonworks]

Ok, so where's the proof that MMA champions can fight when their lives depended on it? You can't provide any, can you? So, based on your flawed logic, they can't fight.

Derek Jones from wing chun use to challenge anyone to street fights, and he would go to your own club to fight you on his own.

Wong sheung leung fought people that were armed with knifes \ choppers. He had the scars on his forehead to prove it.

Leung Jan from Fut shan was reknown as one of the best fighters in Canton, and he'd never lost despite accepting all challengers, during a time when fight means a fight, when one's life is on the line.

Lam Man Hong has also fought the Thais, and won, and many other street fights with the traids in Hong Kong, and never lost.

Anyone wanting to prove that they can fight when their lives depend on it can always look me up. I can arrange for people to try I chop your arms & legs off in China, where life is worth very little.

If you really want to test whether wing chun people can fight, you WILL be able to find them......it's funny that people who say such silly things don't go out of their way to find them.

Of course, people can do it in a safe environment....but it's different when their life depends on it, lol.

Tim Kennedy, Brian Stann, Luigi Fiorivanti are all combat tested in warzones and lived to tell and now fight for the UFC. Thats good enough for me.

I laugh everytime I hear a Wing Chunner try and cheapen an MMA fighters talents and how they would just get owned on the street. They can poke your eyes, grab your balls, grab your trachia...ect! Give me a break! If Wing Chun really wanted to get that level of notoriety, their would be more video footage. It's been around centurys before video and the only Wing Chun in action footage that I have came accross is that laughable (at best) Boztepe fight from 250 yrs ago. I can turn the tv on and watch MMA right now.

I am not downing the style of Wing Chun at all, I love it. The problem I have is soooo many practitioners making wild eyed claims with nothing to prove it with. When a video is posted, say on YouTube for instance, look at the comments....Chunner's can't even agree on if it was Wing Chun or not 101% of the time!:whip:

[dungeonworks]

WC is not a sport. If we were allowed to do what we are taught, then a bunch of busted up noses, chins and eyes would occur. MMA is a sport. They still fight with rules.

Ummm....they do. Watch any of the 100+ UFC events or better yet, any of the Brazilian Vale Tudo stuff (its bareknuckle).

Perfect example of a Chunner propping up a great art while trying to cheapen MMA. In otherwords, it is called fantasy land.

[Poor Uke]

Ok, so where's the proof that MMA champions can fight when their lives depended on it? You can't provide any, can you? So, based on your flawed logic, they can't fight.

Derek Jones from wing chun use to challenge anyone to street fights, and he would go to your own club to fight you on his own.

Wong sheung leung fought people that were armed with knifes \ choppers. He had the scars on his forehead to prove it.

Leung Jan from Fut shan was reknown as one of the best fighters in Canton, and he'd never lost despite accepting all challengers, during a time when fight means a fight, when one's life is on the line.

Lam Man Hong has also fought the Thais, and won, and many other street fights with the traids in Hong Kong, and never lost.

Anyone wanting to prove that they can fight when their lives depend on it can always look me up. I can arrange for people to try I chop your arms & legs off in China, where life is worth very little.

If you really want to test whether wing chun people can fight, you WILL be able to find them......it's funny that people who say such silly things don't go out of their way to find them.

Of course, people can do it in a safe environment....but it's different when their life depends on it, lol.

Do you have any personal experience to bring to the discussion?

I have put myself out and gone to BJJ, Judo, Arnis clubs each time with the same reults. WC is limited in application against trained fighters who arent too arrogant to cross train.

I love WC but your assertions just dont hold up to the mounting evidence to the contrary.

[yak sao]

Do you have any personal experience to bring to the discussion?

I have put myself out and gone to BJJ, Judo, Arnis clubs each time with the same reults. WC is limited in application against trained fighters who arent too arrogant to cross train.

I love WC but your assertions just dont hold up to the mounting evidence to the contrary.


Where most"WC" people run into trouble is they are tunnel visioned. They train hard I'm sure, but only against their own style. My old si-fu referred to this as 'incest'.
Chunners are not the only ones guilty of this. Back when I studied Southern Shaolin I saw TKD people who had never experienced another style of fighter who were dumbfounded when we grabbed their arm and swept their leg. Most boxers spar other boxers, etc.
My WT group is comprised of a bunch of old Shaolin guys like me, so while we train WT exclusively now for the past 14 years or so, we are not thrown for a loop when we see a spinning back kick or a hook puch. Some of our guys that have not trained in other styles do have a tougher time "thinking outside the box" but that's where the groups previous MA experience helps out. We've have/had in addition to Shaoliners, BJJ guys, boxers, wrestlers, kenpo, TKD, krav maga. yada yada in our group so when we practice lat sao it's not just incest, we go outside the family.

[matsu]

if you are taught what to expect and how to deal with many different scenarios you can still "wing chun it" it might call for a variation of the technique but as long as its still using the fundamentals its still wing chun.
or am i off bat here?
also the mma thing.....dont you watch it sometimes and see soooo many sloppy moves that you know if the opponent knew wing chun he could have taken them out? i do, but i,m not stupid enough to think we are better.
i watched ultimate fighter heavyweights last nite and the london fella was bigging himself up and then was crap i thought.all his supposed training just went out of the window and he was just swinging and running.if the massive dude from alabama had been any good he would have destroyed him with any technique from any style.
some guys i know dont do anything,theyre just animals and chain punching them would be like an irritating fly they would swat.
my heel kick to their knee would be a whole different ball game tho lol!
in a real fight its ugly messy and i doubt any clear sound technques could be recognised from outside but a wc guy we hope would use the principles to his advantage and be able to do what other styles dont do..........if he played his game and not tried to play at their game. wing chun wont work against a boxer you keep at arms lenght and let him jab you all day but if you close him down he cant do what he wants but you can,same with tkd karate or most martial arts they have distinct ways to use their techniques, we just shouldnt let them get in a position to do that.
thats waht the gracies did when they first stormed the cage-they took everyone down by forcing their game onto others.
phew verbal overload!
matsu

[Xue Sheng]

Just about any MA can get into trouble if it trains strictly within itself to long, even, dare I say it…MMA.

Old days (talking when Ip Man was alive) Wing Chun had a lot of compitition and other styles to fight. Today in the US, not so much, but that does not mean that there are no Wing Chun fighters left.

[chisauking]

I'm not putting down other ma people, since I love ALL ma.

But the trouble stems from bubble heads -- what I call pepsi & popcorn mentality -- thinking that the ultimate 'testing' ground for a fighting method, is in a sport environment. If it doesn't do well in a ring, then it's rubbish. Well, I'm just turning it around. If it doesn't do well when your life depends on it, then it's rubbish.

If you think wing chun people can't fight, than that's fine. I have no problem with that. But I for one know that your assumption isn't based on real life experience, but on what you see on tv.

Funny, my mum used to believe WWF WTF wrestling was the ultimate fighting method, lol. So did all the other gullible audiences munching on their popcorn, drinking their pepsi.

Unless someone wants to take up my offer to test themselves, then I'm not wasting another precious minute on this pointless topic.

[chinaboxer]

this subject is as old as the cheese that's sitting in my fridge.

first off, there are two types of fighting...

wing chun for self defense "in the street".
wing chun for competition "in the ring".

they require completely different fighting strategies. so to answer the original question, first you have to ask, "which type of fighting are we talking about"?

the answer has nothing to do with "rules in the ring", or "i can eye gouge you if you grapple me" or anything else of that nature.

the answer is really really simple..it has to do with "closing the gap". this is the main reason wing chun fails "in the ring", because they are not taught how to get close to someone who doesn't let you get close to them.

but "in the street", it's another story, because you don't have to "close the gap", why? because your opponent "closes the gap" for you. so you don't even have to move an inch, this is why wing chun works "in the street".

i talk about this subject at my website, check it out at the link below...

http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/09/05/closing-the-gap/

[mograph]

That makes so much sense, chinaboxer. Thanks.

(I want to hear the story about the fight you guys almost got into ...)

[Poor Uke]

this subject is as old as the cheese that's sitting in my fridge.

first off, there are two types of fighting...

wing chun for self defense "in the street".
wing chun for competition "in the ring".

they require completely different fighting strategies. so to answer the original question, first you have to ask, "which type of fighting are we talking about"?

the answer has nothing to do with "rules in the ring", or "i can eye gouge you if you grapple me" or anything else of that nature.

the answer is really really simple..it has to do with "closing the gap". this is the main reason wing chun fails "in the ring", because they are not taught how to get close to someone who doesn't let you get close to them.

but "in the street", it's another story, because you don't have to "close the gap", why? because your opponent "closes the gap" for you. so you don't even have to move an inch, this is why wing chun works "in the street".

i talk about this subject at my website, check it out at the link below...

http://www.thechinaboxer.com/2009/09/05/closing-the-gap/

You've never played Judo have you?

[Poor Uke]

I'm not putting down other ma people, since I love ALL ma.

But the trouble stems from bubble heads -- what I call pepsi & popcorn mentality -- thinking that the ultimate 'testing' ground for a fighting method, is in a sport environment. If it doesn't do well in a ring, then it's rubbish. Well, I'm just turning it around. If it doesn't do well when your life depends on it, then it's rubbish.

If you think wing chun people can't fight, than that's fine. I have no problem with that. But I for one know that your assumption isn't based on real life experience, but on what you see on tv.

Funny, my mum used to believe WWF WTF wrestling was the ultimate fighting method, lol. So did all the other gullible audiences munching on their popcorn, drinking their pepsi.

Unless someone wants to take up my offer to test themselves, then I'm not wasting another precious minute on this pointless topic.

I dont think WC people cant fight, I have never said that!

My point is that it is limited. Sure we can all talk about "oo oo in the ring its not like out in der street" and yeah there is some truth to that BUT if the only way you can validate your art is by getting killed then there is something wrong isnt there?

This thing about range that chinaboxer has brought up is an odd thing to say IMO. Many arts thrive on closing the gap as mentioned in mty last post Judoka love to get contact.

[Xue Sheng]

Where most"WC" people run into trouble is they are tunnel visioned. They train hard I'm sure, but only against their own style. My old si-fu referred to this as 'incest'.
Chunners are not the only ones guilty of this. Back when I studied Southern Shaolin I saw TKD people who had never experienced another style of fighter who were dumbfounded when we grabbed their arm and swept their leg. Most boxers spar other boxers, etc.
My WT group is comprised of a bunch of old Shaolin guys like me, so while we train WT exclusively now for the past 14 years or so, we are not thrown for a loop when we see a spinning back kick or a hook puch. Some of our guys that have not trained in other styles do have a tougher time "thinking outside the box" but that's where the groups previous MA experience helps out. We've have/had in addition to Shaoliners, BJJ guys, boxers, wrestlers, kenpo, TKD, krav maga. yada yada in our group so when we practice lat sao it's not just incest, we go outside the family.

Agreed, all MA styles can fall into this. One of the most amazing learning experiences I have had in MA over the years was being part of a group of martial artists form different styles (Shaolin, Mantis, TKD, Aikido, kempo, etc), several years ago, that got together about one a week just to spar. That was a very cool learning experience and at times a bit of an eye opener. I got one hell of a SPM smack down out on me there :EG:


You've never played Judo have you?

Check here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1224286#post1224286) he is not just Wing Chun


I dont think WC people cant fight, I have never said that!

My point is that it is limited. Sure we can all talk about "oo oo in the ring its not like out in der street" and yeah there is some truth to that BUT if the only way you can validate your art is by getting killed then there is something wrong isnt there?

This thing about range that chinaboxer has brought up is an odd thing to say IMO. Many arts thrive on closing the gap as mentioned in mty last post Judoka love to get contact.

The ring can be equally as limited though and I am not ready to jump on the lets all go hop in the ring and prove our worth band wagon. Nor am I condoning go out and start a street fight either.

There are 2 general versions of Sanshou (Sanda) and that is sport and non-sport but there are 2 versions within non-sport; civilian and Police/Military. Sport Sanshou, (see Cung Le) can and has proved itself in the ring time and time again but very few Police/Miltary practitioners will jump into the ring to fight with all they have been trained to do it is simply against the rules. They will jump in from time to time in the sports venue but they have to change their attitude about the fight and take away some of what they train. However just because a person that trains the police/military version does not jump into the ring to prove his ability does not mean he cannot fight or that he has any lack of skill or is unable to defend him/herself, they are pretty competent fighters actually. And it is not because of any eye gouge. Punch em’ in the chest, rip out their heart, show it to em’ before they die and toss it in the bean dip training, it is simply training and training hard and I can tell you form experience that training hard in that version of Sanshou hurts…a lot from time to time.

And there are a multitude of arts that like to close the gap, Taiji and Xingyi being 2 of them, BUT….. they do not approach it in the same way and Wing Chun is different in its approach as well and I can only assume that Judo has its own approach too.

I think between what yak sao posted about tunnel vision and chinaboxer's post on not being taught how to get close to someone who doesn't let you get close to them and not having or forgetting the basics of wing Chun (which may be in another of his posts) is very much part of the issue for more arts than Wing Chun. certainly more arts than many MA practitioners are willing to admit. And I will add for some it is a lack of wanting to train properly because damn that hurts.

I do know there are Wing Chun practitioners that can fight but just because one trains Wing Chun does not necessarily mean they can fight and just because they don't jump into a ring to prove it does not mean they can't, which is no different that any other martial art on the planet.

And for the record (and a bit of irony) For a long time I have felt that a combination of Wing Chun and Judo would be a pretty damn effective combination

[bully]

Judo is a sport.

I practised judo for quite a while when I was a kid/teens.

Great sport and some good insights for balance/groundwork etc...even some grappling.

Judo is not a ma I would put in my arsenal. Although I suppose I already have as I have studied it already!!

I do not cross train but have studied quite a few ma's. So I hope I have some kind of idea of what to expect,

I am too old to fight though. ;-)

[Poor Uke]

Agreed, all MA styles can fall into this. One of the most amazing learning experiences I have had in MA over the years was being part of a group of martial artists form different styles (Shaolin, Mantis, TKD, Aikido, kempo, etc), several years ago, that got together about one a week just to spar. That was a very cool learning experience and at times a bit of an eye opener. I got one hell of a SPM smack down out on me there :EG:



Check here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1224286#post1224286) he is not just Wing Chun



The ring can be equally as limited though and I am not ready to jump on the lets all go hop in the ring and prove our worth band wagon. Nor am I condoning go out and start a street fight either.

There are 2 general versions of Sanshou (Sanda) and that is sport and non-sport but there are 2 versions within non-sport; civilian and Police/Military. Sport Sanshou, (see Cung Le) can and has proved itself in the ring time and time again but very few Police/Miltary practitioners will jump into the ring to fight with all they have been trained to do it is simply against the rules. They will jump in from time to time in the sports venue but they have to change their attitude about the fight and take away some of what they train. However just because a person that trains the police/military version does not jump into the ring to prove his ability does not mean he cannot fight or that he has any lack of skill or is unable to defend him/herself, they are pretty competent fighters actually. And it is not because of any eye gouge. Punch em’ in the chest, rip out their heart, show it to em’ before they die and toss it in the bean dip training, it is simply training and training hard and I can tell you form experience that training hard in that version of Sanshou hurts…a lot from time to time.

And there are a multitude of arts that like to close the gap, Taiji and Xingyi being 2 of them, BUT….. they do not approach it in the same way and Wing Chun is different in its approach as well and I can only assume that Judo has its own approach too.

I think between what yak sao posted about tunnel vision and chinaboxer's post on not being taught how to get close to someone who doesn't let you get close to them and not having or forgetting the basics of wing Chun (which may be in another of his posts) is very much part of the issue for more arts than Wing Chun. certainly more arts than many MA practitioners are willing to admit. And I will add for some it is a lack of wanting to train properly because damn that hurts.

I do know there are Wing Chun practitioners that can fight but just because one trains Wing Chun does not necessarily mean they can fight and just because they don't jump into a ring to prove it does not mean they can't, which is no different that any other martial art on the planet.

And for the record (and a bit of irony) For a long time I have felt that a combination of Wing Chun and Judo would be a pretty damn effective combination

Nice post

[dungeonworks]

I'm not putting down other ma people, since I love ALL ma.

But the trouble stems from bubble heads -- what I call pepsi & popcorn mentality -- thinking that the ultimate 'testing' ground for a fighting method, is in a sport environment. If it doesn't do well in a ring, then it's rubbish. Well, I'm just turning it around. If it doesn't do well when your life depends on it, then it's rubbish.

If you think wing chun people can't fight, than that's fine. I have no problem with that. But I for one know that your assumption isn't based on real life experience, but on what you see on tv.

Funny, my mum used to believe WWF WTF wrestling was the ultimate fighting method, lol. So did all the other gullible audiences munching on their popcorn, drinking their pepsi.

Unless someone wants to take up my offer to test themselves, then I'm not wasting another precious minute on this pointless topic.

Nobody every said sports were THE ultimate testing ground, just the most realistic that we have. I will say MMA is the best testing ground that we have today.

What area are you from?

[Si-Je]

Nobody every said sports were THE ultimate testing ground, just the most realistic that we have. I will say MMA is the best testing ground that we have today.

What area are you from?

Hon, many, many folks claim that the ring is the "ultimate" testing ground for an arts functionality. Hell, It's been proclaimed that wing chun is no good in the street because it hasn't won a UFC championship! lol!

By the way, the word "ultimate" really means that last. as in extinct. The only one left. so, therefore the "ultimate fighter" is the last man standing?! the best of all?
ha!

sigh. Sorry, don't mean to pick a fight, again. lol!

ChiSau King, Wing Chun just isn't gonna have that kind of reconition, and a good thing too. It's traditional for WC/WT to be known like it is. It was a "secret" art for a long time durning the Chinese revolution. Something to get folks to be effective fighters in a short amount of time, but taught on a one on one basis if not a very small amount of students at a time.

It was never designed for teaching large classes, making a bunch of money (although folks have figured out how to do that. lol!) or for being a "mainstream" form of fighting.

Wing Chun is for the fighters,
"Long live the fighters!"

[Poor Uke]

Hi Si Ji do you have any other MA experience?

I can only go on my own experince of MAs and ts a similar story to many people I have talked to.

I studied WC intently for years andgot as far a junior instructor level. i then decided to test it out against other styles. To date I have been beaten by a number of Judo players, a growing number of Arnis players, BJJ players and comletely F@*king trashed by a boxer (on a number of occasions).

Now dont get me wrong I did on occasion come out on top but that was almost always against people who hadnt been training long!!!!

I aint no fool I realised that what I had been training in for years just wasnt as effective as I thought when pressure tested. I do mean pressure tested.

AND THIS WASNT EVEN IN DER STR33t

D'ya get it??? NOT EVEN UNDER NORMAL SPARRING CONDITIONS WAS IT EFFECTIVE

Phew rant over and that said I have learnt some invaluable lessons from WC that have and will always be part of my MA training, Chi Sau to name one.......

And another thing if somebody says "well there are some d34dly techniques that you wouldnt do when sparring" you ar making a childish assumption that people dont know how to counter being poked in the face or getting to positions where you could eat their goolies.

[elder999]

AND THIS WASNT EVEN IN DER STR33t

D'ya get it??? NOT EVEN UNDER NORMAL SPARRING CONDITIONS WAS IT EFFECTIVE......

Here we go again,.....:rolleyes: :lol:

[Xue Sheng]

Hi Si Ji do you have any other MA experience?

I can only go on my own experince of MAs and ts a similar story to many people I have talked to.

I studied WC intently for years andgot as far a junior instructor level. i then decided to test it out against other styles. To date I have been beaten by a number of Judo players, a growing number of Arnis players, BJJ players and comletely F@*king trashed by a boxer (on a number of occasions).

Now dont get me wrong I did on occasion come out on top but that was almost always against people who hadnt been training long!!!!

I aint no fool I realised that what I had been training in for years just wasnt as effective as I thought when pressure tested. I do mean pressure tested.

AND THIS WASNT EVEN IN DER STR33t

D'ya get it??? NOT EVEN UNDER NORMAL SPARRING CONDITIONS WAS IT EFFECTIVE

Phew rant over and that said I have learnt some invaluable lessons from WC that have and will always be part of my MA training, Chi Sau to name one.......

And another thing if somebody says "well there are some d34dly techniques that you wouldnt do when sparring" you ar making a childish assumption that people dont know how to counter being poked in the face or getting to positions where you could eat their goolies.
All I can say is your mileage may vary.

First I will say I did not use Wing Chun for any of this

I got trashed by an SPM guy but I did not think what I was doing would not work, I just trained more. I beat a lot of Aikido guys but got my butt kicked by an Aikido woman that was half my size. I have beaten and have been beaten by TKD guys and at least one of them that I spared several times beat me sometimes and other times I beat him and occasionally we just called it a draw.

But back to the SPM guy, I was using what I previously had learned from Jujitsu and TKD and trying to apply taiji and he was trashing me. However when I tried to apply what little I knew at the time of Xingyiquan I knocked him down. But since he could pop back up like a weeble and I only knew a little Xingyi I then got trashed and you know what.... it was all good... very cool.... and I learned a lot.

Your Wing Chun not working does not mean all wing chun does not work. And just because someone studies any MA for a long time does not mean they know squat about applying it and it could be that you simply are not good a Wing Chun where you would be awesome at Judo. IT also could be that those beatings you took you should study very closely to see where you went wrong or how you could do better. Read about Wang Xiangzhai, he is one of the few CMA masters that actually admits to being beaten....that is prior to developing Yiquan and after that like all old time CMA masters he was never defeated :rolleyes: .

Now with all that said, I am going to say something that may get me into trouble. I do honestly feel that a lot of Wing Chun people out there over estimate their ability because a lot of Wing Chun people out there get so hung up in Wing Chun that after a short time they start to believe it is the ultimate MA (Hell that is where Bruce Lee came from after all :rolleyes:) and from that starts a "Why should I spar any other style...I'm to good" mentallity. I will have to tell the story someday about the Wing Chun guy (who had been at Wing Chun for about 1 year) that came to my taiji sifu's class (to learn taiji) and started telling him how much better Wing Chun was because it had punches and strikes and taiji didn't :rolleyes:. My taiji sifu has been at this for over 50 years by the way. But I am going off track, suffice to say there are a lot of MA people that over estimate their ability in all possible venues for a fight. I think there are more than a few MMA doing that right now based on what they see on TV.

Now before I become the target of a combined MMA/Wing Chun hunt and beat down (which I likely would lose) I want to say that regardless of all that, just like any other MA on the planet, there are some pretty impressive people out there in Wing Chun (as well as MMA) that I would not want to go up against for any price. They are just damn good Martial Artists and I have always been impressed by a good wing chun person, as well as a good MMA person. They are both amazing to watch, but just because one trains Wing Chun (or any other MA) does not necessarily mean they are good at it.

And like I said in another post, just because someone demands proof of their effectiveness (beit street fight or ring) does not necessarily produce in them the need to prove anything.... and that is likely doubled if they are in fact Mainland Chinese.

[Poor Uke]

Here we go again,.....:rolleyes: :lol:

Mmmm I wonder why this keeps comming up on all the MA boards....mmmmmmmmmm

Xue Sheng I agree with all you have said and I am now aware that for me Wing Chun just doesnt cut it.

Just sometimes it gets my back up when I here people saying silly things about any style really and Wing Chun seems to be a particularly bad style for this kind of thing.

Yes I know MMA types do it too but this is a Wing Chun forum!

[geezer]

Just sometimes it gets my back up when I here people saying silly things about any style really and Wing Chun seems to be a particularly bad style for this kind of thing.

When I started this thread, it wasn't because I doubted the effectiveness of WC/WT. I know it can be very effective, and has produced some awesome fighters. But the way I see it, there are a couple of problems with some of the WC/WT I run across these days:

1. Since WC/WT isn't a prominent, popular sport, but a somewhat off-beat art that takes time to learn, it doesn't attract the best athletes, and "natural fighters". Some of these do study Wing Chun, but a most end up elsewhere.

2. WC/WT is a "thinking man's" art and does attract a lot of educated, professional types who love the depth of this art, but even though they may become quite proficient, they do not have a fighter's temperment.

3. This is the bad part, which I think you were referring to in the remark I quoted above. Some WC/WT people get so caught up in the "theoretical" side of the art that they become grossly deluded as to the extent of their abilities. They actually believe that they are great fighters without having any real-life justification. They go around making outrageous claims that they can't back up and give this great system a bad name.

Now, just for the record, I'm an older guy who's definitely more into the technical/theoretical side of the art than the practical/fighting side. These days, I do more light chi-sau than heavy sparring. It's what I enjoy. But I'm under no illusion that this will make me a kick-ass fighter.

IMHO A good fighter needs to train his practical skills, mental attitude, and heavily condition his body. He needs to cross-train enough to really understand his opponent, and above all, he needs real experience before he goes around shooting-off his mouth.

In short, I think there is plenty of room in WC/WT for both theoreticians and practical fighters. But we could do without the braggarts who can't produce.

[dungeonworks]

Hon, many, many folks claim that the ring is the "ultimate" testing ground for an arts functionality. Hell, It's been proclaimed that wing chun is no good in the street because it hasn't won a UFC championship! lol!

By the way, the word "ultimate" really means that last. as in extinct. The only one left. so, therefore the "ultimate fighter" is the last man standing?! the best of all?
ha!

sigh. Sorry, don't mean to pick a fight, again. lol!

ChiSau King, Wing Chun just isn't gonna have that kind of reconition, and a good thing too. It's traditional for WC/WT to be known like it is. It was a "secret" art for a long time durning the Chinese revolution. Something to get folks to be effective fighters in a short amount of time, but taught on a one on one basis if not a very small amount of students at a time.

It was never designed for teaching large classes, making a bunch of money (although folks have figured out how to do that. lol!) or for being a "mainstream" form of fighting.

Wing Chun is for the fighters,
"Long live the fighters!"

How is wing chun gonna get respect and credibility back then if all we have are claims and no outlet to display it? From the outside looking in, why would someone take it seriously? In Michigan, most Chunners are training in pole barns, basements, and garages. They are very hard to find. MMA, Boxing, K-1 Kickboxing....they all are out there and visible and why people respect them because they SEE them. Thats where the Chun dissing and disrespect comes from I think.

[wushuguy]

Poor Uke, out of curiosity, how much more experienced were the other fighters compared to yourself, and how fast did you progress to junior instructor level?

Sad to say, but not all Wing Chun schools are the same. as is said many times, the ones that produce good fighters are generally not advertising much. It's a very close knit group. Some comercialized schools are more visable, but because of comercialization, the teaching is adapted to the larger class sizes, so some times students don't get the kind of attention they generally need. (although there is at least one commercial school i know of that does produce good fighters) Wing Chun isn't an easy art to grasp, it takes a lot of knowledge and understanding to make it work, not just knowing the motions.

Wing Chun is very effective if one finds the right sifu and also if the student is talented.
It was my experience that sparring TKD, karateka, boxers, "street fighters", and a few escrima guys, that Wing Chun is very effective against single and multiple opponents.

Train against other styles is good, so we can see our own limitations in understanding. Before I liked training in other styles too, and also started to make my own style (mili quan), but the more I understand when comparing the different styles I have learned, it was the foundation of Wing Chun that let me understand how other styles work, and to disect and find the essence of the other style's movement... anyway sorry for starting to get off topic, but yeah, good fighter or not... really depends on the quality of the sifu (coach) and the capability of the student (fighter)

[matsu]

this very subject came up in class last nite. and sifu said he believes that a lot of sifus taught flawed techniqes on purpose to stop anyone becoming better than them,either for power and control of a school or for ego reasons,thus unless the student was a natural fighter and could see the flaws and undo them himself or just be good even with bad taught technique wing chun was effectively being diluted for "real use in the real world"
but luckily there are enough teachers out there that use what they have learnt adapt it and teach their versions so that it now does work.
my sifu trains with and teaches boxers mma guys and when he shows them his wing chun, they can see there is no doubt it works..... perhaps not as a traditionalist would see it tho!
he has also gone to hong kong and shown them that their wing chun doesnt work and why and is constasntly amazed by that fact
matsu

[profesormental]

Greetings.

A prevalent theme/discussion in all martial activities that are not sports oriented is this one.

One problem is the teaching the skills and transmission of knowledge. First, you have a good, talented Martial Practitioner and Teacher.

He teaches a lot of students.

Some are more athletic and have the fire to compete, and get into fights, sports or otherwise, and wins. The flavor and orientation of his teachings and learnings is moving towards this.

Another student is a scholar that loves to find out why things work in his martial activity. This one codifies and really gets into the details and gains a lot of knowledge into why things work and can teach the individual pieces in a repeatable manner.

Another student loves the mental and behavioral effects of Martial Activities and seeks to use it as a tool for self perfection and discipline. The philosophy behind it is also very important, so his lessons and learnings focus on that.

So, you see, the important thing here is the Teacher and individual instructor. This person will steer the Martial Method (in this case, Wing Chun) the way they want and prefer to.

You don't go to the philosopher to learn how to fight or compete. You go to the scholar to get better at what you do, and practice with the competitor students to test it out!

You send you kids to the philosopher, and go to him to learn the history and development of the Skills. He most probably also knows the healing applications too.

If you get a Teacher that knows all areas well, consider yourself lucky.

There are many that learn and then stop learning as if what they were taught is all. These people don't get better with time. The ones that learned how to learn as part of the process of learning are the ones that evolve their Kung Fu to higher and higher levels.

I just hope more take the name seriously, "eternal Springtime", and keep on growing stronger and more powerful, without a Fall or Winter to break them down.

At least that is what I'm working for, and for the most part, am succeeding! I know many others are too!

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado-Robles
Wing Chun Kung Fu Si Fu
Academia de Artes Marciales de Carolina
Guardian Lions Kung Fu Kwoon

[Poor Uke]

Poor Uke, out of curiosity, how much more experienced were the other fighters compared to yourself, and how fast did you progress to junior instructor level?

Sad to say, but not all Wing Chun schools are the same. as is said many times, the ones that produce good fighters are generally not advertising much. It's a very close knit group. Some comercialized schools are more visable, but because of comercialization, the teaching is adapted to the larger class sizes, so some times students don't get the kind of attention they generally need. (although there is at least one commercial school i know of that does produce good fighters) Wing Chun isn't an easy art to grasp, it takes a lot of knowledge and understanding to make it work, not just knowing the motions.

Wing Chun is very effective if one finds the right sifu and also if the student is talented.
It was my experience that sparring TKD, karateka, boxers, "street fighters", and a few escrima guys, that Wing Chun is very effective against single and multiple opponents.

Train against other styles is good, so we can see our own limitations in understanding. Before I liked training in other styles too, and also started to make my own style (mili quan), but the more I understand when comparing the different styles I have learned, it was the foundation of Wing Chun that let me understand how other styles work, and to disect and find the essence of the other style's movement... anyway sorry for starting to get off topic, but yeah, good fighter or not... really depends on the quality of the sifu (coach) and the capability of the student (fighter)

Hi it took me 6 years to get to that level. I dont doubt by WC Sifu's ability nor that of his senior students.

I like WC but it aint the be all and end all of fighting systems and for me not the most effective.

[hunt1]

For what its worth. Judo is fun but wing chun contains several very effective throws that actually are effective and work in fights. Also many locking methods as well.

For example look at you tube vids of the judo olympic competition. How many fancy hip throws etc do you see when the opponent is skilled and resisting?

The best fighting system is the one that you are most comfortable with. Wing Chun has always worked for me but it wont for everyone.

The weakness is most wing chun training is the use of proper body structure and the lower body while moving at speed. Most wing chun teachers focus on the cool flashy hand things and not on what really powers and makes wing chun work. With the knowledge of the use of the lower body wing chun will never really pay off as a fighting method when faced with trained opponents.

[Si-Je]

Okay, Uke. lol!
I used to be the "ultimate" Uke when I took JJJ. funny how big strong guys like to throw a wee wisp of a gal all around the room to prove that their martial art works.

Ouch! **** that. never again do I have to defend and fight like that again, thank you very much!l lol!

This guy keeps coming up to my work asking me to go to his MMA/BJJ/Hapkido school to "spar".
Look, I just left a reeeeeaaaallly ****in bad realtionship and just want to work and pay bills and take care of my daugher. p.s. I don't have any medical insurance if I get hurt for some ******** "sparring" match.

hense probably why I take stuff so "personal" lol!
no room for error.

But, he seems a nice guy. lol! right. whatever. he's wanting me to come to his school and train, and trying to tell me that they have a "daycare" for my daughter. (sorry dudes, when I train, my baby girl is gonna be right there. she Loves kung fu)

Anyways, just another MMA guy that wants' to spar for free. But,,... I like him, he's not MMA, he's Hapkido, so I'll probably end up visiting his school later. After my "boxing" is "fixed" . Wooo! it's pretty bad! lol!
And after I get my control back, so I can spar without damage to others.

But, to awnser your question, yes,... I have sparred with you MMA folks a couple of times. Just this time I have to go to your school and follow your rulez, which I don't know those rules. I mean, I can nicely train and respectively lightly spar or whatever, but if your going to hit me, then ****!
I need to take my glasses off and take out my retainer because I'm not ****ing around when it comes to someone really trying to hit and hurt me. lol!
lol!
Whatever!

Sorry about the weird tanget. didn't mean to go there. I just don't want to go to another damn school and find out I'm fighting someone I don't even know because of their damn teachers! What a crock of ****!

If MA folks can't be civil.?~!

I don't want to 'play" anymore.
I only fight when I HAVE to. not for sport or money. and **** MMA! They just sold out the best MA for profit. Their bastards,
and deserve to.....

!!!!
I think I'll go see my "friend" that keeps coming up to my work and "talking" to me about coming to his school. either he wants to lure me there to have me be beat 2+to one or, maybe he's a good dude.

Hummmm.... I wonder wich? Guess Ill just have to have the balls to see. lol

p.s. I'm NOT bringing my daughter to the schools "day care". lol!
Me and baby girl go to Sifu's class once a week, and she's apart of class. She's a good girl and stays out of the way when folks get roudy, and sits with me to watch Sifu.

Bty mook jong man, this guy is really, really good! Totally different linage though. but, now their doing the form like SLT form like your lineage. neat.

love all ya'll!
Nikki

[Poor Uke]

Oooo those MMA bastards come around here with their proof....bastards!!!

LOL just kidding :)

[Poor Uke]

For what its worth. Judo is fun but wing chun contains several very effective throws that actually are effective and work in fights. Also many locking methods as well.

For example look at you tube vids of the judo olympic competition. How many fancy hip throws etc do you see when the opponent is skilled and resisting?

The best fighting system is the one that you are most comfortable with. Wing Chun has always worked for me but it wont for everyone.

The weakness is most wing chun training is the use of proper body structure and the lower body while moving at speed. Most wing chun teachers focus on the cool flashy hand things and not on what really powers and makes wing chun work. With the knowledge of the use of the lower body wing chun will never really pay off as a fighting method when faced with trained opponents.

Hi hunt1, what brand of Wing Chun do you train?

I have never encountered any throws in WC/WT/VT that havent been lifted whole sale form another MA. I was under the impression that trad WC doesnt have throws.

As for locks I have always thought that Chi Sau and lock flow drills (a la small circle JJ, JJJ and FMA) were made for each other but wasnt aware that locks were taught at all in WC rather left for the student to work out themselves.

Yes I am aware of Chin na before somebody pipes up I'm just curious which branch of WC has kept this skill.

[dungeonworks]

Hi hunt1, what brand of Wing Chun do you train?

I have never encountered any throws in WC/WT/VT that havent been lifted whole sale form another MA. I was under the impression that trad WC doesnt have throws.

As for locks I have always thought that Chi Sau and lock flow drills (a la small circle JJ, JJJ and FMA) were made for each other but wasnt aware that locks were taught at all in WC rather left for the student to work out themselves.

Yes I am aware of Chin na before somebody pipes up I'm just curious which branch of WC has kept this skill.

They happen by simply following principles more often than they are taught...they come out as a biproduct of following the principles during Chisau or sparring. We used to work a few of them but they were NOT the focus of our intent....just options of what you could do if the lock was there.

[dungeonworks]

Okay, Uke. lol!
I used to be the "ultimate" Uke when I took JJJ. funny how big strong guys like to throw a wee wisp of a gal all around the room to prove that their martial art works.

Ouch! **** that. never again do I have to defend and fight like that again, thank you very much!l lol!

This guy keeps coming up to my work asking me to go to his MMA/BJJ/Hapkido school to "spar".
Look, I just left a reeeeeaaaallly ****in bad realtionship and just want to work and pay bills and take care of my daugher. p.s. I don't have any medical insurance if I get hurt for some ******** "sparring" match.

hense probably why I take stuff so "personal" lol!
no room for error.

But, he seems a nice guy. lol! right. whatever. he's wanting me to come to his school and train, and trying to tell me that they have a "daycare" for my daughter. (sorry dudes, when I train, my baby girl is gonna be right there. she Loves kung fu)

Anyways, just another MMA guy that wants' to spar for free. But,,... I like him, he's not MMA, he's Hapkido, so I'll probably end up visiting his school later. After my "boxing" is "fixed" . Wooo! it's pretty bad! lol!
And after I get my control back, so I can spar without damage to others.

But, to awnser your question, yes,... I have sparred with you MMA folks a couple of times. Just this time I have to go to your school and follow your rulez, which I don't know those rules. I mean, I can nicely train and respectively lightly spar or whatever, but if your going to hit me, then ****!
I need to take my glasses off and take out my retainer because I'm not ****ing around when it comes to someone really trying to hit and hurt me. lol!
lol!
Whatever!

Sorry about the weird tanget. didn't mean to go there. I just don't want to go to another damn school and find out I'm fighting someone I don't even know because of their damn teachers! What a crock of ****!

If MA folks can't be civil.?~!

I don't want to 'play" anymore.
I only fight when I HAVE to. not for sport or money. and **** MMA! They just sold out the best MA for profit. Their bastards,
and deserve to.....

!!!!
I think I'll go see my "friend" that keeps coming up to my work and "talking" to me about coming to his school. either he wants to lure me there to have me be beat 2+to one or, maybe he's a good dude.

Hummmm.... I wonder wich? Guess Ill just have to have the balls to see. lol

p.s. I'm NOT bringing my daughter to the schools "day care". lol!
Me and baby girl go to Sifu's class once a week, and she's apart of class. She's a good girl and stays out of the way when folks get roudy, and sits with me to watch Sifu.

Bty mook jong man, this guy is really, really good! Totally different linage though. but, now their doing the form like SLT form like your lineage. neat.

love all ya'll!
Nikki


Hapkido is a Korean made and repackaged Japanese Jujutsu with heaping shovelfuls of Tae Kwon Do. They have some neat weapon stuff too. It is a really beautiful art to see and can make one a believer in wrist lock effectiveness! Coming from JJJ as you are, you likely will see similar stuff as you had in the past.

He likely wants you to come to his MMA gym for a few reasons....

1) You maybe told him how good and superior Wing Chun alone really is and how unrealistic and bad MMA is at some point or in more/less words. He wants to see it.

2) He thinks you are hot and wants to date you! :) (Heck, its every male martial artists dream to date a lady martial artist...'specially if she's a cutie!)

I think the sparring would be good for you after noting all the ****'s in your post Si-Je! :D That seems a lot out of character for your usual posting and a good spar may be what the doc ordered for ya! Have a friend or family member watch your kiddo and go blow off some steam already!

Good luck.

[dungeonworks]

Hapkido as a base for MMA....wierd! Aside the Gracie's in action videos, I have not seen it used in MMA and thought it would be 50% useless for MMA with the small joint manipulations.

[hunt1]

Uke

The wing chun I teach is a blend of Ip Man family and Lo Kwai family. Lo Kwai was a studnet of Leung Jan. He taught his nephew, the nephew taught his son, the son taught me. ( abridged story) I combine all I know since I spent many years learning from several Ip Man sifu's first.

It is a shame more don't teach the throwing an locking. Ip Man taught it to some but most of his students wanted the fast hands and didn't really bother with the rest and Ip Man wasn't the type to argue with a student or waste time teaching something you didn't show interest in.

There is even a type of chi sau specifically to teach throwing locking and controlling the center of gravity of both the opponent and yours.

To avoid confusion we consider everything from single bridge arm in to be a type of chi sau. Some call certain things Kui Sau but all southern arts have kui sau(bridge arm ) training.

[Si-Je]

He likely wants you to come to his MMA gym for a few reasons....

1) You maybe told him how good and superior Wing Chun alone really is and how unrealistic and bad MMA is at some point or in more/less words. He wants to see it.

2) He thinks you are hot and wants to date you! :) (Heck, its every male martial artists dream to date a lady martial artist...'specially if she's a cutie!)

I think the sparring would be good for you after noting all the ****'s in your post Si-Je! :D That seems a lot out of character for your usual posting and a good spar may be what the doc ordered for ya! Have a friend or family member watch your kiddo and go blow off some steam already!

Good luck.

Oh, no, no! I'm MUCH more diplomatic in person. lol! I save all that WC is superior on it's own against MMA for you guys online! lol!
I've sparred even just lightly with some MMA guys before and other MA stylists. Always friendly. And they were always interested in what WC was doing and why they couldn't hit or kick me so easily. (I'm not perfect, ya know. I've been hit and kicked, even thrown before) ;)

I work at a little retail shop that he just happens to frequent (the past several years before I started working there.) I was bored one day (because it was reeeeallly slow) and was messing around walking through the isles doing stance stuff. Just goofing off (and no, I don't get embarrised looking like a weirdo doing basic stance and pivot stuff at work. although fellow employees think I'm weird.) lol!

I just started talking to me about MA and we chatted for a long time. Even showed him some WC deflections and he showed me some Hapkido stuff. (which I switched and told him how simlar to JJJ that was and blah, blah.) Told him I took small circle JJ and he really liked to know more about that.

etc... Very friendly. He's probably wanting to "hook up" as you say, but I dont' really get that "vibe" from him. I mean, yeah, hes a dude so you guys are almost ALWAYS looking for that option. But, it doesn't seem to be him main motivator. He's been to the store enough times since then and talked to me that if he wanted a "date" he would and could've asked for one.

Maybe he's sneaky. I don't know.
But, I'd really like to go and train friendly with a more "mixed" group of MA stylists so I could "play" with my understanding of wing chun in sparring or drilling and such with other stylists that aren't "compliant" or "following the rules" of wing chun. As so many often say is our "problem" in Wing Chun. lol! (enough "quotes" or you guys? lol!)

As for the MMA "proof". I have yet to see a video or whatever of a REAL wing chun fighter go against a MMA fighter. the WT guy in UFC didn't use any WT at all. AT ALL! whatever. still waiting for this "proof" the MMA folks keep screaching about. Just because someone says they train or know WT doesn't mean it's true.

:boing2:

As for the "throws" in WC/WT, I've learned a few WT teaches them, I think Fungs folks do a variant of throws in the form of breaking structure and such. But the joint locking and throwning is really mainly a "simptom" more than the origional intent of wing chun defence. It more or less kinda just "happens" depending on what energy your opponent gives you. You don't go for it like you do in JJJ. That took me a looooong time to train out of me. I kept wanting to force and "make" the joint lock happen like I could do so well in JJJ, but it doesn't work like that. It's almost like your opponent punches at your face, you deflect, their balance changes and you "help" them become unbalanced and then boom! you've got them in an armbar or a neck throw. Hard for me to explain in writing.

[Si-Je]

P.s.

Sorry about all the swearing. I haven't been allowed to swear at all for so long that I'm really taking advantage of the fact that I now can whenever I want too. Yes, a bit overkill even for me.

****, ****, ****ity... **** **** ****. lol!

Okay, I'll try to refrain from all that naughty talk. :)

As for sparring heavy, I've got to get to a doctor first, and a dentist before I do anything too rough. I've got a root canal needing to be done and a good solid punch to the side of my face would probably knock that sucker right out and save me about 1,800 bucks lol! But, that would still suck.

And a serious visit/s to the chiropractor + x-rays would be a great start before I get hard core physical. But some friendly sparring could be okay if folks don't get to uppity. That's mainly why I take getting hit hard in "certian" places a little too personally right now. dangerous for me, and just stupid to get injured sparring or in training when you don't have medical insurance.

And to boot, I'm a single mommie. I can't go getting myself seriously injured and not being able to work and take care of my kiddo. Just not worth all that. I like our new home and want to keep it and my job. These things make me not a big fan of sparring right now.

[Poor Uke]

Okay, I'll try to refrain from all that naughty talk. :)



I quite like it :)

[Poor Uke]

They happen by simply following principles more often than they are taught...they come out as a biproduct of following the principles during Chisau or sparring. We used to work a few of them but they were NOT the focus of our intent....just options of what you could do if the lock was there.

Yep thats what I was taught but no real focus on locking just momentary control whilst you hit 'em.

hunt1 thanks for the reply I am always interested in the different variations of WC.