Irish law forbids "samurai swords"

[Grenadier]

Apparently, it went into effect just yesterday:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/crackdown-on-samurai-swords-1874325.html



A BAN on samurai swords, which are being used increasingly in violent assaults, will come into operation today.

The swords have been added to a list of offensive weapons as a result of changes to existing legislation. Anyone found guilty of being involved in the sale, hire, manufacture or importation of the swords will face a jail sentence of up to seven years from today.

The list already includes weapons such as flick knives, machetes and knuckle dusters and is contained in the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act.

The legislative changes will target easily obtained samurai swords, which are more likely to be used by criminals.

But exemptions to the ban are included to cover samurai swords manufactured before 1954, when Japan introduced a regulatory system.
There are also exemptions to swords made at any other time, according to traditional methods of creating them by hand. This is to cater for genuine collectors.

Yet another silly law, but it's the law, nonetheless.

Some people may assert "well, it doesn't hurt anyone but crooks," given that they exempt "hand forged" swords, but I doubt they realize that there's no shortage of really cheap "hand forged swords" out there.

Just as a few examples:

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p4712.m38.l1313&_nkw=hand+forged+katana&_sacat=See-All-Categories

[Bob Hubbard]

Stupid laws like this are intended to disarm the public, make the passers look like heroes, and do nothing to actually stop crime since criminals don't obey the law. Idiot laws I call them as only an idiot supports em.

[celtic_crippler]

Is it still legal to own a shillelagh?

[arnisador]

Sheesh!

[mwd0818]

I don't agree necessarily, but I will at least point out a counter argument to the idea that laws like this only hurt law-abiding citizens, the criminals are criminals because they don't care about the law.

This is true, but in today's society with lawyers and legal loopholes and litigation, there is an advantage to having laws like this on the books. It becomes additional grounds for prosecuting real criminals. Arrest a person and charge him with assault with a deadly weapon (samurai sword for example). Criminal's lawyer finds a legal loophole and the charge is dismissed. Criminal walks.

Add in these silly laws, and that same guy is charged with Assault with a Deadly Weapon, Possession of a Samurai Sword, etc. . . Now, at least there are more things that could possibly go through to a conviction, and if that law didn't exist, it eliminates a possibility of prosecution.

Not that I necessarily agree with it, but it is an advantage to having these type things on the books and I think worth at least acknowledging. I look at these things kind of like welfare . . .

In theory I think they are on to something . . .

In practice . . . they are often missing entirely.

[Tez3]

Can I point out this is in Eire and Ireland is two countries,Northern Ireland and Eire. Both have their own governments which are voted in by the electorate who don't seem to be complaining. They may however take umbrage at being thought stupid to pass such laws, however it's their country, their laws, up to them.

[shesulsa]

I keep waiting to find soylent green on the shelf at the grocery.

[grydth]

Can I point out this is in Eire and Ireland is two countries,Northern Ireland and Eire. Both have their own governments which are voted in by the electorate who don't seem to be complaining. They may however take umbrage at being thought stupid to pass such laws, however it's their country, their laws, up to them.

Agreed as to sovereignty issues, but stupid laws are just that irrespective of locale or nation.

Here in New York State, we have one of the stupider laws with regard to martial art weapons.... so I am not singling out the Irish nor would I be condescending about it.

I should most wish to see an Offensive Politician Act, banning those shallow beings who steal our freedom and thereby make us less safe.

I would also note that increasing conviction rates is not always a good thing - not when we are criminalizing ordinary people while the actual killers and slashers too often run free.... a disgusting situation most often noted right here in the USA.

[MA-Caver]

When weapons are outlawed only outlaws will have weapons!

Didn't they do this in Australia not too long ago?

Wonders how long before it crosses the pond to here?

[CoryKS]

Sweet! Say good bye to violent crime in Eire! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[celtic_crippler]

I keep waiting to find soylent green on the shelf at the grocery.

But....it's....PEOPLE!


Sweet! Say good bye to violent crime in Eire! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

Absolutely! They have nothing else to worry about now! LOL

[Bob Hubbard]

I don't care if they are offended. Similar laws are passing here....I have the same amount of contempt for them.

[Ken Morgan]

Stupid useless laws.

Sukerkin will know better then I, but in the UK you must belong to a MA club or be a collector to own a sword.

Is it any wonder so many kids in the UK run around with screw drivers now?

Honestly, carry a baseball bat or a field hockey stick, with an appropriate ball. I would be more afraid of a bat or a stick then of a sword.

[girlbug2]

I'm still trying to process the idea that samurai swords are commonly used in committing crimes. WTF?

American criminals seem to prefer knives and guns. You never hear about samurai sword robberies here! Our criminals must be a lower class.

[Omar B]

Not exactly the easiest thing to serve as a CCW or even draw properly when comes time to use it.

[celtic_crippler]

Stupid useless laws.

Sukerkin will know better then I, but in the UK you must belong to a MA club or be a collector to own a sword.

Is it any wonder so many kids in the UK run around with screw drivers now?

Honestly, carry a baseball bat or a field hockey stick, with an appropriate ball. I would be more afraid of a bat or a stick then of a sword.

...until screw drivers are outlawed as well...unless you're wearing a tool belt of course. ROFL

I mean, seriously... do you actually think you can outlaw any and everything that can be used as a weapon? Really? Do you not think they'll just find something else to use or simply, because they are commiting a crime, use the sword anyway?


I'm still trying to process the idea that samurai swords are commonly used in committing crimes. WTF?

American criminals seem to prefer knives and guns. You never hear about samurai sword robberies here! Our criminals must be a lower class.

Until knives and guns are outlawed...then they'll turn to samurai swords. LOL

Criminals will use whatever is available to threaten and intimidate their victims.

Silly laws that waste my tax money being passed irk me as well.

[Bob Hubbard]

The US handles a dozen samurai sword cases a year.

Ireland can ban Samurai swords. Just don't ban Excalibur. ;)

[lklawson]

...until screw drivers are outlawed as well...unless you're wearing a tool belt of course. ROFL

I mean, seriously... do you actually think you can outlaw any and everything that can be used as a weapon? Really? Do you not think they'll just find something else to use or simply, because they are commiting a crime, use the sword anyway?
GB's law already has a provision against carrying ANY item with the intent to use it as a weapon.

Everything beyond that is "feel good" law (as if that wasn't in and of itself).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[lklawson]

Can I point out this is in Eire and Ireland is two countries,Northern Ireland and Eire.
Similar laws have been proposed and passed elsewhere in the British Commonwealth.

I clearly recall Paul McDonald's "Save our Swords" campaign.


Both have their own governments which are voted in by the electorate who don't seem to be complaining. They may however take umbrage at being thought stupid to pass such laws, however it's their country, their laws, up to them.
The issue here is that bed-wetting liberals in the U.S. love to point to "our more civilized friends over seas" and mindlessly drone on about how we need to ape any and every socialistic or freedom denying law enacted. 'Cuz, you know, if they did it over there, it MUST be good! :P

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[David43515]

On another board I frequent I recall 2 members from the UK being harassed by police. One for using a heavy walking stick to assist him walking up a hill near his home. (Do you really need that cane or are you carrying it as a possible weapon?") And another who was a cricket fan (I know, I don`t get it either) and was walking down the street with a cricket ball in his hand. The police stopped him and began asking him several probing questions because "That could be used as an offensive weapon sir."

Of course, there may be a legitamate reason. Several years ago I recall that Poland was experiancing such a high number of people being beaten up with baseball bats that they considered banning the sale unless you could prove you were a member of a team.

[Ken Morgan]

I can't wait till they start banning tree branches and rocks...

[Tez3]

No you don't have to belong to a MA club or anything to own swords here.
What's Excalibur got to do with Eire?

It's all so generalised and word of mouth, it almost sounds like urban legends 'a policeman stopped a guy carrying a cricket ball', well what police force? where?
I know a man who knows a man whose cousin's girlfriend's auntie heard of someone stopped by the police for carrying a pair of scissors, yeah right. proof please!
And for those who don't play cricket do you know what one looks like or more importantly how it feels to be hit by one?

http://www.health24.com/images/_contentgroups/Sportsinjuries_cricket.gif

"A cricket field is not quite as gentlemanly a place as people would like to think. Hand, finger and shoulder injuries are very common – after all, a cricket ball is a heavy object, and when it is travelling at 130km/h (the speed reached by many provincial fast bowlers), it is not surprising that injuries result. But it is not only the batsmen and the wicket keepers that are at risk – fielders and bowlers are also sometimes laid low by injuries."



"Unfortunately one sour note has been the death of cricketing umpire Alcwyn Jenkins this week. Mr Jenkins was hit on the head by a cricket ball and collapsed while umpiring a league match between Swansea and Llangennech in Swansea"


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:tBGTz6Be2CpeqM:http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/pe/images/bruise.jpg (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/pe/images/bruise.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/pe/safety/1_safety_causesandtypes_rev3.shtml&usg=__7KjpWWgWDzF8yTm1-k8f0LDiwMA=&h=175&w=226&sz=21&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=tBGTz6Be2CpeqM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=108&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcricket%2Bball%2Binjuries%26gbv%3D2%2 6hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26ie%3DUTF-8)
A cricket ball hit this guys eye.

[Ken Morgan]

http://www.blades-uk.com/faqs.php

"Samurai and other curved Swords - On April 6th 2008 a law came into effect banning samurai and other curved swords with a blade length of 50cm or more, there are some exceptions for registered martial artists, re-enactors and even certain genuine Japanese swords.

An amendment to this act was passed, which came into effect on the 1st of August 2008, which allows curved and samurai swords which are handmade using traditional forging/production methods to be sold without a license which you will see on the site and can buy and own without a license."

[girlbug2]

. Several years ago I recall that Poland was experiancing such a high number of people being beaten up with baseball bats that they considered banning the sale unless you could prove you were a member of a team.

And how do you get enough practice to be a member of a team, unless you have a baseball bat first?

[shesulsa]

And how do you get enough practice to be a member of a team, unless you have a baseball bat first?
SSSHHHH!! If Big Brother reads that a US citizen has this kind of sanity and reason, you may be whisked away to an undisclosed location.

[Tez3]

I have to say thiis lol....the England cricket team did a lot of damage recently to the Aussie team! Ashes anyone?


Baseball isn't played very much in Poland so I guess thats a bit of a giveaway to the police that people weren't carrying them for playing with. In America it's nothing unusual of course so you wouldn't think twice about it but it's rare in Poland as it is here. Someone carrying a baseball bat here would be stopped too as the only teams I know of are the ones on American military camps here.

[Sukerkin]

The law on the matter of katana (why they twisted it about so much in terms of describing the blade I don't know) is targeted at removing the 'wallhanger' type of cheap reproduction from the hands of criminals.

It will have zero effect and is yet another example of daft legislation.

Those of us who are 'legitimate' users, if we can show that we are licensed and insured (which is what the laws woffle boils down to) can continue to use and buy katana - but it is important to note that we are still 'breaking' the law, they just allow us to get away with it. The difficulty lies with iaito, as these do not satisfy the conditional clauses of the law that permt us to buy shinken (EDIT: as far as I am aware).

Pistol users in this country will be having deja vu as this point. I am awaiting the time when the legislature take the next step of claiming that the law does not work and thus all such weapons become illegal. God help the Household cavalry then (their sabres conravene the law as it is phrased)

[grydth]

The law on the matter of katana (why they twisted it about so much in terms of describing the blade I don't know) is targeted at removing the 'wallhanger' type of cheap reproduction from the hands of criminals.

It will have zero effect and is yet another example of daft legislation.

Those of us who are 'legitimate' users, if we can show that we are licensed and insured (which is what the laws woffle boils down to) can continue to use and buy katana - but it is important to note that we are still 'breaking' the law, they just allow us to get away with it. The difficulty lies with iaito, as these do not satisfy the conditional clauses of the law that permt us to buy shinken (EDIT: as far as I am aware).

Pistol users in this country will be having deja vu as this point. I am awaiting the time when the legislature take the next step of claiming that the law does not work and thus all such weapons become illegal. God help the Household cavalry then (their sabres conravene the law as it is phrased)

Perhaps those of you in other lands can now see why many Americans have such strong opinions on government attempts to remove our rights and abilities to self defense.

The streets will not be made safer by wacky attempts to remove objects that criminals might use... and the criminals never give up their weapons anyway. If the government honestly cared it would remove the criminals and leave law abiding people alone.

Once you trade in a right for a mere priviledge, you have nothing - except perhaps a stay of execution. Registration prevents no crimes, but it does provide another way for the government to pick your pocket....and it is a handy guidebook when they do come around to steal your katana.

Licensing becomes, in our underhanded and fee happy state, a slick means of banning. Want a sword license? Denied! Or......that'll be $500.....annually. Insurance......that'll be......plus state tax......"for the children". Of course.

Whenever honest citizens are 'allowed' or 'tolerated' in breaking the law, this will last only until the politicians once again need to show they are again "doing something" about crime. Never mind the street thugs... convict Sukerkin and take away his swords and re-election should be a breeze.....

So perhaps you understand us a little better when we say we'll fight... and by any means necessary.

[Tez3]

Perhaps those of you in other lands can now see why many Americans have such strong opinions on government attempts to remove our rights and abilities to self defense.

The streets will not be made safer by wacky attempts to remove objects that criminals might use... and the criminals never give up their weapons anyway. If the government honestly cared it would remove the criminals and leave law abiding people alone.

Once you trade in a right for a mere priviledge, you have nothing - except perhaps a stay of execution. Registration prevents no crimes, but it does provide another way for the government to pick your pocket....and it is a handy guidebook when they do come around to steal your katana.

Licensing becomes, in our underhanded and fee happy state, a slick means of banning. Want a sword license? Denied! Or......that'll be $500.....annually. Insurance......that'll be......plus state tax......"for the children". Of course.

Whenever honest citizens are 'allowed' or 'tolerated' in breaking the law, this will last only until the politicians once again need to show they are again "doing something" about crime. Never mind the street thugs... convict Sukerkin and take away his swords and re-election should be a breeze.....

So perhaps you understand us a little better when we say we'll fight... and by any means necessary.

I don't see why though you should have such strong views on the rest of the world's laws though. Are you concerned that your government is so insecure that it will copy everyone else's laws? You have a constitution we don't, yet you seem far more worried than we do about losses of rights than we do? Perhaps we have more recourse to the law than you, I don't know.

The laws on swords here are a small thing in the face of larger problems, everyone predicted that all swords would be taken away and no one would be allowed to keep them, I did say that was nonsense at the time. Everyone with genuine ressons for having swords still has them.

What Eire does is up to them, if it's citizens don't like it them knowing the Irish they will do something about it.

[Cryozombie]

I don't see why though you should have such strong views on the rest of the world's laws though. Are you concerned that your government is so insecure that it will copy everyone else's laws? You have a constitution we don't, yet you seem far more worried than we do about losses of rights than we do? Perhaps we have more recourse to the law than you, I don't know.

Unfortunatley, what is done in other nations is often used as an argument or excuse as to why it should be so here.

Pop into the study and look at all the folk arguing over Healthcare, and see the #1 reason being tossed about is "They do it Canada" "They do it in Europe"...

That kind of thinking is what makes us wary...

[Tez3]

Unfortunatley, what is done in other nations is often used as an argument or excuse as to why it should be so here.

Pop into the study and look at all the folk arguing over Healthcare, and see the #1 reason being tossed about is "They do it Canada" "They do it in Europe"...

That kind of thinking is what makes us wary...


I can understand having a look at how others do things but surely they can see that what works here in a small country wouldn't work in such a big country as America and vice versa! Something like the National Health Service here which isn't perfect but works not too badly on the whole was far easier to implement countrywide sixty odd years ago in a small country than to try and change yours into copy of it.
Our laws here are actually quite different from yours, they come from different bases, some are over a thousand years old, others come from the EU but comparing laws is basically pointless. I know little of Eire's laws if anything at all but I have a good working knowledge of criminal laws here, working being the operative word, I know it seems weird the way some of ours work but for the most part work they do. Nothings perfect of course and things go wrong often but things go right more often.

[lklawson]

Are you concerned that your government is so insecure that it will copy everyone else's laws?It's not a matter of being "insecure" it's a matter of some politicians using it as support for them to follow similar courses. "Well, they did it in [fill in the blank] so we should do it too."



You have a constitution we don't, yet you seem far more worried than we do about losses of rights than we do?
Again, if anyone, anywhere, does it, the extremists in our own government use it as an excuse to validate their own ambitions in that area. Gun Bans and Single Payer Health are simply two examples out of many.

Seriously.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[grydth]

I don't see why though you should have such strong views on the rest of the world's laws though. Are you concerned that your government is so insecure that it will copy everyone else's laws? You have a constitution we don't, yet you seem far more worried than we do about losses of rights than we do? Perhaps we have more recourse to the law than you, I don't know.

The laws on swords here are a small thing in the face of larger problems, everyone predicted that all swords would be taken away and no one would be allowed to keep them, I did say that was nonsense at the time. Everyone with genuine ressons for having swords still has them.

What Eire does is up to them, if it's citizens don't like it them knowing the Irish they will do something about it.

As I noted at the outset of the 8th post in this thread, I don't seek to question Irish sovereignty. They can do what they wish - it is all the same to me if they ban all kitchen knives, or if they require everyone there to carry a sword.

Nor do I visit to assert America is better than the Irish, which would be an odd assertion given my ancestry and our own silly laws on the subject. I am quite aware others come to take cheap shots at other countries - including and most often the USA - but I simply don't have the time for it. I simply want to debate the law.

I would note the stupid New York law on martial arts weapons predates this stupid Irish law by many years, so perhaps Europe seeks to copy us...

Yes, there are many 'insecure' Americans who would slavishly copy the alleged ways of the world, but these sheeple forget how and why our country was created. May we send they back?

Yes, for now, we have our constitution.... but even that is subject to the malign misinterpretation of the freedom destroyers. Recently they have even advanced the notion that our second amendment was actually meant to convey the right to bear arms to the government, and not individuals. The Heller case was decided by narrow decision - a couple of new liberal justices and Americans will be told that Jefferson, Washington et al really were socialists and statists. Of course we are worried, and had best remain vigilant lest Europe's fate become ours.

I respect your right to be different 'over there'; please respect ours.

[runnerninja]

I think there are conditions where it is OK to have a samurai sword in Ireland. If your a martial artist its OK(as far as I know). Collectors should be OK too.

There may even be something in the law that says the sword should be made in Japan.

On a side note for any case I have heard of somebody using a samurai sword in an assault the sword has been an ornamental. Quite often people go on holiday to places like the Canary Islands and pick these up cheap.

On another note I once got stopped by the police(Im from the North). When they searched my boot they found I had a baseball bat two bokkens a hanbo and a hurling stick. They were only concerned with what I needed the baseball bat for and sorta s******ed at the fake swords. To be honest I think my weapon of choice here would be the hurling stick. Im convinced I could take a limb off with it but hopefully I'll never know.