Threat Indicators!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here is a video clip I came across made by an LEO.
Enjoy and hopefully we can discuss it!

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[Flea]

Thank you. I used to escort patients at my local abortion clinic; I'm going to send this to the coordinator. It's a very toxic place and some of the protesters are pretty unstable. It never came to blows while I was there but we had some near misses.

[Chris Parker]

Nice. Others to be aware of, particularly in street predators, are what is called the "wounded dog" look, looking away and down, often towards the right hand (the power hand) in preparation of attack; the shedding of clothes (due to a rise in body heat as adrenaline is dumped); the shortening of sentences to single syllable words (from "I'm really not happy that you're here at this time, you were not an invited guest" to "YOU! GET LOST! GET OUT!" etc, but often with various expletives kept out for the niceness of a public forum...) as the higher brain functions shut down; body and words being incongruent (saying they're leaving when walking forwards - on hte flip side, if someone is saying that they're going to take you down, but walking away, you're pretty safe for the moment).

[sgtmac_46]

Here is a video clip I came across made by an LEO.
Enjoy and hopefully we can discuss it!

6aa7r7Da8Nw&feature=channel

Excellent!

Now, after that lesson folks, look at a real incident and see how many of those EXACT cues were given by the suspect.....TEXTBOOK! http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c5b_1249651769 (http://blutube.policeone.com/Clip.aspx?key=45444EBE329D7A17)

The suspect in that incident did virtually everything shown in the first video......this is good stuff to know!

[jks9199]

I like the video, because it shows AN escalation of the pattern of behaviors... but I'm not a fan of a lot of those lists. You don't remember them under pressure, especially when you're running on a mental script shaped by lots of encounters that didn't go violent.

All of those behaviors are actually part of one of two things, the body's prep for combat or what Rory Miller called the Monkey Dance. Recognizing what's going on eliminates the need to remember lists. Most of the pre-fight behaviors stem from one or the other (or both). Excess energy caused by the hormonal cocktail prepping the body, expressed as antsy/shifty movements or tensing, for example, and actions like chest puffing or big gestures caused by unconscious/subconscious attempts to prove status without fighting (part of the Monkey Dance).

It's also very important to realize that there's a difference between a confrontation like that shown above, where there are almost always precursors that can be seen and "real" predatory violence which will often occur with little or no warning.

[Archangel M]

I've seen that one around the MA blogs before...

http://tdatraining.blogspot.com/2008/12/threat-indicators-and-personal-safety.html

There is some interesting write-up's about the indicators that go with that vid there...the blogger writes.


Now, don't go nuts just because some guy wipes his face. The secret to decoding these cues is to take the entire situation into account and look for clusters of behavior.

Which I think is important to remember with this stuff.

[Archangel M]

I like the video, because it shows AN escalation of the pattern of behaviors... but I'm not a fan of a lot of those lists. You don't remember them under pressure, especially when you're running on a mental script shaped by lots of encounters that didn't go violent.

I dont know if I have ever looked at that stuff as a list to be "checked off" when I am talking to someone. I think that this stuff is great to simply be familiar with so that you at least recognize it when you see it....

[Hawke]

Nice find.

You can see grooming, target glance, weight shift before the attack.

Southnarc mentions these in his seminars.

[jks9199]

I've seen that one around the MA blogs before...

http://tdatraining.blogspot.com/2008/12/threat-indicators-and-personal-safety.html

There is some interesting write-up's about the indicators that go with that vid there...the blogger writes.



Which I think is important to remember with this stuff.
Excellent point... The context of the behavior is important.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I dont know if I have ever looked at that stuff as a list to be "checked off" when I am talking to someone. I think that this stuff is great to simply be familiar with so that you at least recognize it when you see it....

I think that is the key just being familiar enough to know that they may be getting ready. (though we all know there is no guarantee)

[jks9199]

I dont know if I have ever looked at that stuff as a list to be "checked off" when I am talking to someone. I think that this stuff is great to simply be familiar with so that you at least recognize it when you see it....
I've just seen too many cases where people learn the lists and can recite 'em... but don't recognize what they're seeing, or only recognize it after the fact. The video goes a long way towards fighting that.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I've just seen too many cases where people learn the lists and can recite 'em... but don't recognize what they're seeing, or only recognize it after the fact. The video goes a long way towards fighting that.

Absolutely jks9199! I know quite a few people who understand mentally the lists and what to look out for but have a hard time picking it up when it happens. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Archangel M]

I've just seen too many cases where people learn the lists and can recite 'em... but don't recognize what they're seeing, or only recognize it after the fact. The video goes a long way towards fighting that.

Yeah, there are more people with conceptual understanding vs "rubber meets the road" understanding out there that is for sure.

What I find interesting in that vid is that that the cop/security guy either didn't recognize the cues or did but chose to fight. If I recognized cues like that I would use some verbal commands, draw OC/Tazer etc....

[jks9199]

Yeah, there are more people with conceptual understanding vs "rubber meets the road" understanding out there that is for sure.

What I find interesting in that vid is that that the cop/security guy either didn't recognize the cues or did but chose to fight. If I recognized cues like that I would use some verbal commands, draw OC/Tazer etc....
Yeah... That or acted long before the guy started to attack. I'm proud to say that I don't recall ever charging someone with assault on an officer. Had a few considering it -- but I stopped them, either verbally, or by escalating my response before they could do it.

Actually, one case where we got real lucky is a good example that fits here. Christmas eve a couple of years ago, my partner and I are dispatched to a domestic dispute. My partner happened to be a retired cop; keep this in mind, 'cause it may be the only reason someone's Christmas isn't remembered as the day the cops killed her husband. I take the husband, and we adjourn to the dining area off the kitchen while my partner takes the wife into the living room. Husband decides he wants to get himself a drink of water. Not going to happen, 'cause there are way too many knives, etc. in the kitchen. And it just won't do for me to get him a glass of water, either. He suddenly stands up, starts to shove chairs and tables out of the way, voice pitch raising. He's pacing, fists are clenching, and my partner hears this. Meanwhile, my hand has gone to my gun... My partner and I did manage to calm him down, partly due to having enough years on the guy to do kind of a fatherly tone on him. Both my partner and I really thought that we were going to be shooting that guy though...

Lots of indicators, and I recognized them, as did my partner. We just managed to bluster him down.

Here's another one that didn't go so smooth... A different partner and I responded to another domestic. Latino husband and wife, and by dumb chance I'd assisted my partner (a female) in locking the guy up for DUI a few weeks prior. He'd been meek as can be that night, on the street. Well, today, he's been drinking again, the wife is upset and just wants him to leave. He's talking on the phone, and ignores our presence as we talk to the wife & son. (First cue.) He turns his back on us. (Second cue) We try to get his attention, and he continues to ignore us, and turns even further away. (Technical term: conspicuous ignoring. Another clue.) My partner goes to tap him on the shoulder, and he backfists her in the chest, phone explodes into it's component chunks, she falls back, and I cleared the way around the sofa at warp speed... and introduced Senor Tonto into the couch, face first and at respectable velocity. (Had the couch not been there, it'd have been the floor. And greater velocity.) My partner did charge him with assault on an officer... What went wrong? First, we recognized him and expected him to behave the same in his house as on the street. WRONG; context matters! Second, we ignored or failed to recognize the clues he was giving off, partly because of our expectations. My partner wasn't hurt, just knocked back (body armor can cushion a blow...).

[Archangel M]

Yeah, there are more people with conceptual understanding vs "rubber meets the road" understanding out there that is for sure.

What I find interesting in that vid is that that the cop/security guy either didn't recognize the cues or did but chose to fight. If I recognized cues like that I would use some verbal commands, draw OC/Tazer etc....

But in the makers defense, it is more dramatic the way it's shown. I suppose it wouldn't make much sense to the uninitiated if the cop just sprayed the guy for clenching his fists. :)

[Brian R. VanCise]

But in the makers defense, it is more dramatic the way it's shown. I suppose it wouldn't make much sense to the uninitiated if the cop just sprayed the guy for clenching his fists. :)

Yes clearly it is a video to show some of the subconscious indicators that can occur before a conflict begins. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Flea]

Right. And for the purposes of teaching, all the signs should be exaggerated so the uninitiated can see them. I'm sure it would be a very different video if it were produced specifically for LEO training. I'm sure there are lots of these videos out there tailored to training a variety of professionals. It would be interesting to see some others.

[thecrow]

great video, but i have one problem, my chest is always puffed, it's a pride thing and i use to body build, so it is always puffed, unless i'm fighting, maybe that is why i get in so many fights, lol

[still learning]

Hello, Most times...our instincts will kick in...telling us......alert..ALERT...

Never let someone get close to you....hitting range? ....best research this further...

Great stuffs to learn...indicators...and body languages,.........Aloha

[blindsage]

I think this video is dead on and useful (although I bet some of it would vary in different cultural settings). But I'm honestly surprised that it would be that necessary. I've always been one to walk away and avoid fights as much as possible, but this kind of behavior is kind of 'no ****' to me. I just can't imagine how most people (or at least most adult men) wouldn't know the meaning of these indicators.

[jks9199]

I think this video is dead on and useful (although I bet some of it would vary in different cultural settings). But I'm honestly surprised that it would be that necessary. I've always been one to walk away and avoid fights as much as possible, but this kind of behavior is kind of 'no ****' to me. I just can't imagine how most people (or at least most adult men) wouldn't know the meaning of these indicators.
Most of the behaviors shown are pretty consistent across cultural lines.

I'm not exactly in agreement that looking down or at the fist is a particular reliable precursor/signal... and that one might change with different cultures (some cultures don't make as much eye contact as is common in the US). Most of the others, though, are really part and parcel with the autonomic arousal system.

[utb1528]

Great post. Thanks.

I have worked in a jail for a decade or so.

One simple trick I use is I always ask "Are you OK?"
If you don't get an answer be careful.

Also, someone wrote listen your instincts. Good advice.

[sgtmac_46]

I like the video, because it shows AN escalation of the pattern of behaviors... but I'm not a fan of a lot of those lists. You don't remember them under pressure, especially when you're running on a mental script shaped by lots of encounters that didn't go violent.

All of those behaviors are actually part of one of two things, the body's prep for combat or what Rory Miller called the Monkey Dance. Recognizing what's going on eliminates the need to remember lists. Most of the pre-fight behaviors stem from one or the other (or both). Excess energy caused by the hormonal cocktail prepping the body, expressed as antsy/shifty movements or tensing, for example, and actions like chest puffing or big gestures caused by unconscious/subconscious attempts to prove status without fighting (part of the Monkey Dance).

It's also very important to realize that there's a difference between a confrontation like that shown above, where there are almost always precursors that can be seen and "real" predatory violence which will often occur with little or no warning.

It bears noting that some of those indicators ARE indicators of predatory violence, while others, sticking the chest out, aren't.

Blading the body, and putting the power to the rear, is an indicator of predatory violence, i.e. prepping for an assault. The better the predator, the better his ability to conceal his preparation, but all predators prepare for the attack by concealed positioning for advantage and an attempt at subterfuge.

Remember.....the key to predatory assault is UNDETECTED MOVEMENT FOR TOTAL SURPRISE ON THE ENEMY! But all predators give indicators, no matter how subtle......many victims simply aren't aware enough to perceive them.

And while we read the bad guys, the REVERSE is true as well.........the bad guy is looking and probing for weaknesses to exploit......if he doesn't find any, he's not likely to attack. IF he finds a weakness, even such as a moment of distraction or lack of awareness, he may attack.

[sgtmac_46]

I think this video is dead on and useful (although I bet some of it would vary in different cultural settings). But I'm honestly surprised that it would be that necessary. I've always been one to walk away and avoid fights as much as possible, but this kind of behavior is kind of 'no ****' to me. I just can't imagine how most people (or at least most adult men) wouldn't know the meaning of these indicators.

You'd be very surprised what 'most people' don't know or recognize......your mistake is assuming that other people have your instincts.

[blindsage]

You'd be very surprised what 'most people' don't know or recognize......your mistake is assuming that other people have your instincts.
That is a very valid point. Though I don't think of it as instinct, I think of it as a learned awareness through experience. But you may be right either way. I may have just been more perceptive (and maybe paranoid :anic:) over the last 30 years.

[MarkBarlow]

Great video. Thanks for sharing it, Brian.

If you get a chance, watch some of the tapes of LEOs being assaulted during traffic stops. In almost every case, the driver will exhibit most if not all of the warning signals and, for whatever reason, the officer remains oblivious. I know it's all too easy to be an armchair quarterback and I'm not making light of any LEO being attacked but it's useful to see what happened and what went wrong in order to better prepare yourself.

In the best of circumstances, the job of any LEO is stressful and there is always the potential for danger. The better prepared, both physically and mentally, the better their chances of of surviving.

[Archangel M]

Great video. Thanks for sharing it, Brian.

If you get a chance, watch some of the tapes of LEOs being assaulted during traffic stops. In almost every case, the driver will exhibit most if not all of the warning signals and, for whatever reason, the officer remains oblivious. I know it's all too easy to be an armchair quarterback and I'm not making light of any LEO being attacked but it's useful to see what happened and what went wrong in order to better prepare yourself.

In the best of circumstances, the job of any LEO is stressful and there is always the potential for danger. The better prepared, both physically and mentally, the better their chances of of surviving.

I think that a lot of LEO's probably fall victim to "reality is a lot different from theory". Some things are a lt easier said than done. also think that even though many people exhibit these cues, many offenders dont "jump off" and officers become complacent.