Bruce Tegner

[Danjo]

Well, here's the new thread so that jukado1 can participate/interfere(?)

Please answer the question that has been posed to you if you indeed know the answer: Did Bruce Tegner actually train with the organization that gave him the rank in Karate or did he merely get by via imitating the 8mm films and the atemi waza that he had from his study of Judo?

If, as you argue, that a punch is a punch and atemi waza from Judo is equivelant to a fifth degree black belt (or even a first degree) in Karate, then shouldn't everyone just be cross-ranked? would you hand out a black belt in Jukado to someone that read the book (yes I have a copy) and sent in film of themselves doing the tricks in it? or would you find that somewhat unethical?

Or maybe since I was only around for the last couple of years of the 1960's, you could tell me if ethics have changed since then as much as the martial arts have?

[jukado1]

If you could read and knew "karate" you would have already known the answer, In order to learn the punching of karate as compared to martial arts fighting all that you need to do is "dumb down" your technique, "Judo" men also know how to punch, In order to learn/do the form the only real difference is to remember to bring your free hand back to your hip rather then to just tork your shoulder back but keep your hand where its still ready to block and strike, The movements of karate are not any different than the movements that the real old time judo men did, Karate is just the specialization of punch/kick, So passing a belt test is just about learning the form, And the original Japanese karate styles did NOT have all the silly contortions that are taught in some of the martial "ARTS", Did Bruce take classes with shukokai instructors, No, But Bruce could fight if he had to, And that's what the "fighting " arts are about, Not the fact that the left hand must be held at a 37 degree angle in Kata 4, Bruce always taught us that fighting is not part of a style, Bruce, As Bruce Lee would try to teach a few years later was its own style, NOT a set of prearranged dance steps, Now if you still don't understand let me know and I'll try to explain it again later.
This was written at 08:00 this (Friday) morning, And finished at 08:49 Friday.

[jukado1]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/326583/


(http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/)
(http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/)Return to Forum (http://www.network54.com/Forum/326583/) Bruce Tegner

September 19 2006 at 5:45 PMhttp://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1217270738.JPG
Dan Weston (danjo@rocketmail.com) (Login Danjo1 (http://www.network54.com/Profile/Danjo1))
from IP address 4.232.78.45

Response to Newest 10th Degree (http://www.network54.com/Forum/326583/message/1158676684/Newest+10th+Degree)This was the story behind one of Bruce Tegner's diploma's he got in Karate from Japan in the 1950's. The story goes that he went to Japan and really tried to ingratiate himself and get a fairly high rank (3rd degree I think--remember when that was considered high rank?) from someone over there. Finally they gave him the rank, but he couldn't read it as it was in Japanese. On the back cover of his first Karate book, he had a copy of the certificate. Someone who read Japanese clued him in to the fact that it basically said that he was given the rank because he'd begged for it. It didn't appear on any subsequent editions.


(http://www.network54.com/Forum/326583/post?messageid=1158713149)

Since Mr. Weston seems to have very little knowledge of these facts, He still speaks as if he is an authority, And this was posted over 2 years ago, well Mr Weston, You "may" have knowledge of the art you practice, But if you are as through in your art I would doubt it, This is the second time you've attacked Bruce, And from what I see your facts and your willingness to try to actually learn are limited, Usually I try to give everybody respect, But in your case I don't believe you've earned it.

[Twin Fist]

you need to back the hell up off of Dan. He EARNED his karate BB, unlike that joke you are defending.

and i dont blame you, you HAVE to defend the fraud since you studied under him, making YOU a fraud too. If he is exposed, so are you.

[Twin Fist]

Bruce always taught us that fighting is not part of a style, Bruce, As Bruce Lee would try to teach a few years later was its own style, NOT a set of prearranged dance steps

of course Tegner didnt teach a "style"

he never learned one.....

[yorkshirelad]

you need to back the hell up off of Dan. He EARNED his karate BB, unlike that joke you are defending.

and i dont blame you, you HAVE to defend the fraud since you studied under him, making YOU a fraud too. If he is exposed, so are you.
This whole thing reminds me of a guy who claims to teach TKD mixed with a bit of Kenpo and and had to explain what he was doing to a testing board that didn't have a clue, so that they could skip rank him from 2nd to 4th Dan.

[jukado1]

And master Twin Fist you are ?? What knowledge do you bring to the forum, You do not even have the guts to post your name, In my book that just shows your a key board master, While Danjo speaks without knowledge, He has the guts to do so with his name out in public, He does take responsibility for his words, NOW, What do you want to base your knowledge of Bruce Tegner on, Did you ever see him ? Have you ever worked out with him ? Am I a great master, NO, Am I a great fighter, NO, But I have been in martial arts/fighting for a few years, And I have worked with and been beaten up by some good fighters, And I have worked with some decent fighters, Let me do some name dropping, After Bruce retired I did some training with a gentleman by the name of Joe Lewis, Does Joe think that I am really good, NO, I've learned from Mike Stone, I've trained with and helped to train a fighter by the name of Howard Jackson, And been shown some boxing by his trainer, Julio Flores, At one time I helped a young lady by the name of Graciela Casillas who won a couple of kick boxing and some boxing matches, Since you are so knowledgeable why don't you see if I am who and what I say I am, And than tell us who you are and what your credentials are.

[celtic_crippler]

If you could read and knew "karate" you would have already known the answer, In order to learn the punching of karate as compared to martial arts fighting all that you need to do is "dumb down" your technique, "Judo" men also know how to punch, In order to learn/do the form the only real difference is to remember to bring your free hand back to your hip rather then to just tork your shoulder back but keep your hand where its still ready to block and strike, The movements of karate are not any different than the movements that the real old time judo men did, Karate is just the specialization of punch/kick, So passing a belt test is just about learning the form, And the original Japanese karate styles did NOT have all the silly contortions that are taught in some of the martial "ARTS", Did Bruce take classes with shukokai instructors, No, But Bruce could fight if he had to, And that's what the "fighting " arts are about, Not the fact that the left hand must be held at a 37 degree angle in Kata 4, Bruce always taught us that fighting is not part of a style, Bruce, As Bruce Lee would try to teach a few years later was its own style, NOT a set of prearranged dance steps, Now if you still don't understand let me know and I'll try to explain it again later.
This was written at 08:00 this (Friday) morning, And finished at 08:49 Friday.

Just so I can keep up...

That's a "NO" to the question as to whether or not Mr. Tegner trained with a "live" karate instructor...right?

However, his Judo skills and rank are not in dispute...right?

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't know much about Bruce Tegner, nor about the various authenticities in dispute here.

What I do know is that his little chapbooks were on sale in grocery stores in small towns in the mid-west when I was growing up, and they provided kids like me with some interesting insights and basic material in a world where there was no internet, when martial arts training was found only in relatively big cities, and before TV and movies made it famous.

For that, I believe Mr. Tegner is due some respect. He was a pioneer who seems to have spread knowledge of martial arts styles and at least exposed people who might then go on to learn more or 'more authentic' styles on their own.

I don't have any strong feelings one way or another, but I suspect if we can give David Carradine credit for popularizing CMA, we can give Tegner credit for exposing martial arts in general to the general public.

[Sukerkin]

I too have no horse in this race but I think that Bill makes an important point there; one worthy of a little consideration at least. That is despite the fact that I have no truck with those that present themselves as being other than they are in terms of certification or authenticity.

[shaolinmonkmark]

to twinfist and Danjo,

"why do i feel like this is going to be a video we find in an attice called:
8 mm part3 ??? "
LOL!!

My take is this:
1. Can you learn from a video? (Yes, but not 100% of what the technique teaches)
2. Do i think Teg honestly was ranked and earned correctly?

(we do not have enough conclusive proof.)

(Hope that ends this "Flamed out 8mm part3 thread.)

[Carol]

to twinfist and Danjo,

"why do i feel like this is going to be a video we find in an attice called:
8 mm part3 ??? "
LOL!!

My take is this:
1. Can you learn from a video? (Yes, but not 100% of what the technique teaches)
2. Do i think Teg honestly was ranked and earned correctly?

(we do not have enough conclusive proof.)

(Hope that ends this "Flamed out 8mm part3 thread.)


Lemme get my saw :D :D

[jukado1]

Was Bruce Tegner loved by the martial arts community of the 60s ?, NO, Did he know what he taught ?, YES, Bruce Tegner was disliked by the martial arts "EXPERTS" of his era because he did not push the party line, In the 60's if you wanted to learn martial arts you were expected to give your life over to your style, Instructor, And train to become a shining lite for your school, You were not allowed to think for yourself, You had to take your instructors word as law. Bruce Tegner, Both in his school, And in his books tried to see that "martial arts" could be done as a hobby, Sport, Could be done as we now can play tennis, Golf, Or any other past time without giving up your life for it, Most of you are way to young to remember what the martial arts scene was in the 60/70's, For every fighter we had 10 people who thought that karate was taking some kind of a silly stance, Eating rice, and knowing Japanese/Chinese/Korean, Bruce was not liked because he downplayed all of these things that made karate instructors feel like little gods, I've been around for a little while, And I've seen all the shots people take at anybody who does not believe they have all the answers, For those in kenpo, look back and see what most of the traditionalists thought of Ed Parker, Or put in ANY other name, You'll find someone taking verbal shots at them, Now for all of you, Do you know what your talking about, I can sit here and call some of you phonys, But the truth is I would not know most of you if I ran into you on the street, If I saw you in your school Would I know enough too insult you, I doubt it, If you've worked with Bruce or at lest watched him workout in person you at lest have a basis for an opinion, But the blind following the blind will not help you gain knowledge.

[theletch1]

Attention all users:
This may be a good time for everyone concerned to review the rules of the board. Pay special attention to those rules which dictate friendly discussion and those regarding our policy on fraudbusting. Tough questions are allowed, even encouraged and proof of claims is appreciated but should be asked for and given in a proffessional and as close to cordial manner as possible.
Attention all users:

-Jeff Letchford
-MT super moderator

[shaolinmonkmark]

Attention all users:
This may be a good time for everyone concerned to review the rules of the board. Pay special attention to those rules which dictate friendly discussion and those regarding our policy on fraudbusting. Tough questions are allowed, even encouraged and proof of claims is appreciated but should be asked for and given in a proffessional and as close to cordial manner as possible.
Attention all users:

-Jeff Letchford
-MT super moderator

No offense, mod, but Danjo started "the official thread"
that is what this is.
Am I right?????
We are all sticking to the post on behalf of Danjo, and Jud.(?)

[zDom]

I don't know much about Bruce Tegner, nor about the various authenticities in dispute here.

What I do know is that his little chapbooks were on sale in grocery stores in small towns in the mid-west when I was growing up, and they provided kids like me with some interesting insights and basic material in a world where there was no internet, when martial arts training was found only in relatively big cities, and before TV and movies made it famous.

For that, I believe Mr. Tegner is due some respect. He was a pioneer who seems to have spread knowledge of martial arts styles and at least exposed people who might then go on to learn more or 'more authentic' styles on their own.

I don't have any strong feelings one way or another, but I suspect if we can give David Carradine credit for popularizing CMA, we can give Tegner credit for exposing martial arts in general to the general public.

I agree. My very first exposure to the martial arts that I remember was a Bruce Tegner paperback I borrowed from my dad's bookshelf.

[Bob Hubbard]

Gentlebeings, please review this sites policies on things such as fraud busting, polite interaction, etc. Staying within them will allow you to discuss this matter without further mod notes, infraction points, or forced vacations, and save us the resulting paperwork, headaches and so on. Your cooperation is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[John Bishop]

No offense, mod, but Danjo started "the official thread"
that is what this is.
Am I right?????
We are all sticking to the post on behalf of Danjo, and Jud.(?)

I'm not really understanding what you mean by "official thread", since Danjo is not a MT staff member.
This is just a discussion thread like any other thread, and is bound by the same forum rules as all threads.
We can discuss this subject without participating in any personal attacks on those living or dead. Present facts, and feel free to give your opinion on the facts. We can all give our opinion on things such as long distance training, video training, traditional training, non-traditional training, teaching methods, etc.
Saying someone is a "phony" is a insult and in some cases may be against the forum rules. Giving reasons why you think their background, training, or teaching methodology is flawed is a purposeful discussion, and not against the rules.

[Twin Fist]

yo yorky, exactly what is your problem with me?

oh wait, now i get it, attacking people that point out self promoters, liars, and charletons is sort of a personal thing with you.

why was that again?

oh yeah......



jukado1,
what are my credentials? well, for one thing, my instructors were actually RANKED in what they taught.

thats a start......

"Bruce Tegner was disliked by the martial arts "EXPERTS" of his era because he did not push the party line"

or because he claimed rank he didnt earn.......either way

BTW, my real full name was included in my sig line, but thats disabled because i have been a bad bad boy.

I dont hide anything. Ask around, you will see. Long time posters know the names of not only myself, but both my kenpo instructors and my TKD instructors, and my full lineage.

[yorkshirelad]

yo yorky, exactly what is your problem with me?

oh wait, now i get it, attacking people that point out self promoters, liars, and charletons is sort of a personal thing with you.

why was that again?

.
I saw your 4th Dan test on youtube and thought it was quite interesting. The panel didn't seem to have a clue what you were doing. I saw that you represented Kenpo by throwing in "Delayed sword" I had to laugh at that one. I noticed that you were explaining everything that your students were doing, so that the panel could in someway understand your art. They bumped you up two ranks with minimum knowledge of what you are doing.
Instead of pointing out others misgivings, why don't you focus that critical mind on yourself and maybe you'll turn out to be a better martial artist and person.

[yorkshirelad]

jukado1,
what are my credentials? well, for one thing, my instructors were actually RANKED in what they taught.


Oh btw, what exactly do you teach, that's right American TKD with a little kenpo added. Those people on your testing board, you know, the one's who didn't have a clue what you were doing, who were they? How much did you pay 'em?

[Twin Fist]

i wasnt being promoted in Kenpo Yorky. I was being promoted in TKD, and you are simply not qualified to evaluate wether or not i am qualified for that rank in TKD.

Further more, my TKD instructor wasnt a rank chasing laughing stock, she has been promoted by the SAME PERSON from 1st to 6th, and has owned a school since 1991, so i feel pretty good about my promotion, even tho i didnt ask to test, I didnt ask to skip 3rd, and honestly, dont feel like i deserved a 4th Dan.

yeah, i had begineers demonstrate beginner level Kenpo techniques. Did they do them badly? i didnt think so.

I teach them a number of kenpo techniques. Delayed sword, 5 swords, alternating maces, mace of aggression, hooking wings, cross of destruction, shield and sword, and they learn more progressive techniques as they learn more.

BTW-i learned those techniques from the same person you did. so if my knowledge of kenpo is limited........

[yorkshirelad]

[quote=Twin Fist;1213297]

Further more, my TKD instructor wasnt a rank chasing laughing stock, she has been promoted by the SAME PERSON from 1st to 6th, and has owned a school since 1991, so i feel pretty good about my promotion, even tho i didnt ask to test, I didnt ask to skip 3rd, and honestly, dont feel like i deserved a 4th Dan.

quote]
If you were being tested in TKD, why the Kenpo? Why do you find it so offensive when someone quizzes you in the same vein as you quiz them. If anything I have been more polite in this instance than you have.

As for your rank, you're right I know nothing of TKD. I've never had any interest. I know nothing of dance either, but if I'm sat with the wife watching 'Dancing with the stars' (or any other dance show she insists on watching) and I see a guy flapping around like an untrained walrus, I know that he's not exactly a master of the Tango. From what I've seen from you, the same applies. Your multiple attack section, even though it was impromptu, was quite frankly WANK.

BTW, I learned Kenpo in Europe, I trained and taught classes at Spry's, but by then, I already had 13 years in. But you're right, you know little of Kenpo, that's why you steel techniques instead of principles for your system.

[Tez3]

Just so I can keep up...

That's a "NO" to the question as to whether or not Mr. Tegner trained with a "live" karate instructor...right?

However, his Judo skills and rank are not in dispute...right?

Ah I see.

:-popcorn:



They aren't playing nicely though are they?

[Twin Fist]

If you were being tested in TKD, why the Kenpo?
Why the kenpo?
several reasons. 1) my instructor likes to see her BB's going BEYOND what she teaches. 2) i was demonstrating what I teach. And I use Kenpo for self defense, i find it gives better skills that pure TKD

If anything I have been more polite in this instance than you have.
i DIDNT QUESTION ANYONE, all i did was tell someone to back up off of Danjo. And you couldnt be polite if someone put a gun to your head.


Your multiple attack section, even though it was impromptu, was quite frankly WANK.
Where is the film of you, if you are so skilled and I suck so bad? please, show me something. I am always willing to learn, thats why i am learning a new system now, I am ALWAYS learning.


that's why you steel techniques instead of principles for your system
learn to spell chap, it's "steal" not "steel"

[Tez3]

Guys, seriously you are going to have this thread locked down if the personal insults don't stop flying around. And 'wank' is not a nice word to use on a public forum.

[yorkshirelad]

If you were being tested in TKD, why the Kenpo?
Why the kenpo?
several reasons. 1) my instructor likes to see her BB's going BEYOND what she teaches. 2) i was demonstrating what I teach. And I use Kenpo for self defense, i find it gives better skills that pure TKD

If anything I have been more polite in this instance than you have.
i DIDNT QUESTION ANYONE, all i did was tell someone to back up off of Danjo. And you couldnt be polite if someone put a gun to your head.


Your multiple attack section, even though it was impromptu, was quite frankly WANK.
Where is the film of you, if you are so skilled and I suck so bad? please, show me something. I am always willing to learn, thats why i am learning a new system now, I am ALWAYS learning.


that's why you steel techniques instead of principles for your system
learn to spell chap, it's "steal" not "steel"
There is plenty of film of me, you just have to know where to look. You shouldn't put such tripe out there on youtube and expect no-one to call you on your nonsense.

I'd like to point out a few things concerning grammer, don't forget the apostrophe and use an upper case letter at the start of a sentence. Speaking of apostrophies, why did you use one after BB? Why the question mark after bad? It just doesn't make sense.

One more thing matey boy, I want it to be known here and now, that if anyone ever puts a gun to my head, I WILL BE POLITE!!

[Twin Fist]

seriously, this is already boring. People with chips on thier shoulder is stupid.

[Carol]

Hey Tygart! You need to lay of Yorkshire. ;) Save the fighting for the wheel of torture, babe.

[Twin Fist]

There is plenty of film of me, you just have to know where to look.


post it up!

come on, show us those elite skills you got!

i wanna learn

[yorkshirelad]

seriously, this is already boring. People with chips on thier shoulder is stupid.
It's their not thier

[Tez3]

Apostrophe and apostrophies.
People with chips on their shoulders are boring.

Now go have a drink and calm down lol.

[yorkshirelad]

post it up!

come on, show us those elite skills you got!

i wanna learn
You know my name, do a little diggin'. After all this skullduggery, I'm not going to make things easy for you. I don't want you steeling....ugh..stealing my touchless 'Dim Mak' techniques for your own system, like you did with Spry and his version of 'Delayed Sword'.

[yorkshirelad]

Apostrophe and apostrophies.
People with chips on their shoulders are boring.

Now go have a drink and calm down lol.
I'll go back and correct that before Tygart sees. Thanks.
Btw, according to John, it's thier not their and he knows.

[Sukerkin]

Stop it, gentlemen, if you please, before someone gets hurt.

You do yourselves no honour with such behaviour.

[yorkshirelad]

People with chips on thier shoulder is stupid.
Can someone just a little more educated than I, please sort this sentence out for John?

[Tames D]

Stop it, gentlemen, if you please, before someone gets hurt.

You do yourselves no honour with such behaviour.

Something told me, after reading the Title and OP, this was not going to be an honorable thread http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[Sukerkin]

Aye, Tames; one reason why threads of this nature attract so much oversight.

But gentlemen and ladies who comport themselves with respect can dispute over the most contentious of matters and still retain their personal honour and, more importantly perhaps, not impugn that of those with whom they contest.

[Danjo]

Holy smokes did this get out of hand quickly!

One question was all I really wanted to know: Did Bruce Tegner really train in Karate, or did he call his Judo training Karate and say that it was all the same thing?

To me "A punch is only a punch, and a kick is only a kick" is the most misunderstood phrase of Bruce Lee's out there. Even he didn't really believe that all kicks and punches were the same. He practiced many punches and kicks and called them by different names. But any way you look at it, no one really thinks that if you get rank in one art that involves kicking and punching, it's just the same as any other art that involves kicking and punching. This seems to be the argument of jukado1.

Bruce Tegner did indeed spread the martial arts interest and filled a critical gap in America's history. But, that doens't mean that his Judo Atemi was the same as Karate, or that it warranted rank in a Karate system.

[Tames D]

Good save Danjo http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[morph4me]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

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[yorkshirelad]

Can someone just a little more educated than I, please sort this sentence out for John?
Scratch that, Tez already did.

[jukado1]

From Danjo: ""One question was all I really wanted to know: Did Bruce Tegner really train in Karate, or did he call his Judo training Karate and say that it was all the same thing?

To me "A punch is only a punch, and a kick is only a kick" is the most misunderstood phrase of Bruce Lee's out there. Even he didn't really believe that all kicks and punches were the same. He practiced many punches and kicks and called them by different names. But any way you look at it, no one really thinks that if you get rank in one art that involves kicking and punching, it's just the same as any other art that involves kicking and punching. This seems to be the argument of jukado1.""
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Danjo, Let me ask you, What is your definition of a karate style ?? In the 60's and 70's the big thing was kata, Very few styles were teaching the flying spinning over hand reverse punch, And if you know much of the Japanese karate of the era there were just a few basic stances, Do you really think that anybody does not know a front stance ?, What about a horse stance ?, In the day there was no gymnastics, There was punch, Kick, Throw, Lock, Choke and defend against attacks, Or one steps, Do you know these ? What makes you think that they are so difficult that others don't know them ?, Belt tests are about repeating the moves that you are shown, And even though Bruce was not in a competition shape he still had 25+ years of martial arts training, He knew theory of fighting, So what would be so hard about studying tapes and learning the way somebody wanted to see something ?. And as far as your bodyguard Twin Fist, Go sit in the corner and let the adults talk in peace.

[jukado1]

I would like to apologise, I answered this question on the kenpo thread but it was one of the posts that got gone, Did Bruce Tegner train in karate ?, Both of Bruce's parents were black belts and trained out of the Chicago judo club, At that time one of the premier clubs in the country, Whenever visiting martial artists were in this country this is one of the clubs they would visit, And when they came they would workout and teach, Bruce trained in all of the Japanese arts of the day, Some days he would do both judo and karate and weapons class the same day, While he was training he had 2 things he emphasised, Competition judo, And real fighting/self defense, He also traveled around the country to train with anyone who would train him, He spent time in Canada to study savate, BUT at that time the only rank he worked toward was in judo, After he won the California state judo championship in about1947, He was promoted to 2nd dan judo, he quit competition and worked on teaching and promoting judo and martial arts for the average person, And only after the shukokai came to him did he train to get his 5Th dan, Was it honorary, Yes to the extent he was not in competition shape and he did NOT do everything exactly the same as did the shukokai, He was awarded rank/earned rank to promote the shukokai.

[Milt G.]

Hello,

This thread has been a bit interesting to say the least. I think some of the misunderstanding is due, in part, to all the missing posts of late. Oh well. That stuff happens...

Bottom line, for me...
Who cares where Bruce Tegner got his training, or what rank he was given, bought, aquired, stole, earned or otherwise...?
The fact is, he did as much, if not more then anyone, for the martial arts in this country at the time of their infancy.
I bet he has done more to promote study, students and training then most IF NOT ALL of the other seniors and "leaders" out there... So what if he was only a white belt? (which I, personally, do not believe) He still did more then most of the rank and file "masters" and "grand masters", etc...

Let's just say he was better then most, as good as many and not as skilled as some, and let it go. His written work was an inspiration to many thousands of students, me included.

And, forgive me I mean no personal offense to anyone... But those who are not willing to give their real names when asked, should not be stirring the pot, or calling B.S. on others... Unless you have a real name, and are willing to share freely, then you are just a "keyboard warrior", in my, and many others opinion.

My respect goes out to those open and honest participants out there.
End of rant... :)

Thank you,
Milt G.

In edit I will include my full name; Milt Guinette

[Twin Fist]

all of that may very well be true, but the TRUTH is never a bad thing and is NEVER irrelevant

John Tygart
4th Dan
American TKD
Owner and Head Instructor
Twin Fist Martial Arts
Nacogdoches Tx
75961
936-569-0786

[Milt G.]

all of that may very well be true, but the TRUTH is never a bad thing and is NEVER irrelevant

John Tygart
4th Dan
American TKD
Owner and Head Instructor
Twin Fist Martial Arts
Nacogdoches Tx
75961
936-569-0786

Hello,
Thank you, Sir...!

Milt G.

[Danjo]

From Danjo: ""One question was all I really wanted to know: Did Bruce Tegner really train in Karate, or did he call his Judo training Karate and say that it was all the same thing?

To me "A punch is only a punch, and a kick is only a kick" is the most misunderstood phrase of Bruce Lee's out there. Even he didn't really believe that all kicks and punches were the same. He practiced many punches and kicks and called them by different names. But any way you look at it, no one really thinks that if you get rank in one art that involves kicking and punching, it's just the same as any other art that involves kicking and punching. This seems to be the argument of jukado1.""
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Danjo, Let me ask you, What is your definition of a karate style ?? In the 60's and 70's the big thing was kata, Very few styles were teaching the flying spinning over hand reverse punch, And if you know much of the Japanese karate of the era there were just a few basic stances, Do you really think that anybody does not know a front stance ?, What about a horse stance ?, In the day there was no gymnastics, There was punch, Kick, Throw, Lock, Choke and defend against attacks, Or one steps, Do you know these ? What makes you think that they are so difficult that others don't know them ?, Belt tests are about repeating the moves that you are shown, And even though Bruce was not in a competition shape he still had 25+ years of martial arts training, He knew theory of fighting, So what would be so hard about studying tapes and learning the way somebody wanted to see something ?. And as far as your bodyguard Twin Fist, Go sit in the corner and let the adults talk in peace.

Well, let's see. I have a brown belt in Shotokan and one in Shaolin Kempo. I have a 2nd Black in Kajukenbo Original Method (or "Old Hard Style" as some call it). None of them have the acrobatic stuff you've referred to, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Also, I know enough to know that none of them are like each other enough to allow me to claim rank in one just because I had a certain rank in another. Do they all have punches and kicks? Yes. Are they the same? No.

You tend to obfuscate when you say that Tegner had years of martial arts training. I know he did. But was it in the Karate style that he claimed rank in?

You mention that he wasn't in "competition shape". I'm not at all sure what you are trying to say with that unless you view all karate as a sport. There are many legitimate black belts in karate that do not compete and are not in "competition shape". It doesn't make their rank honorary, so why would that make Tegner's honorary?

Like others here, I too admit that Tegner brought the martial arts to the masses in a way that no one else did. My first martial arts experience was doing moves out of his self defense book with my uncle and brother on the front lawn. I have at least 6 of his books on my shelf currently, and have had many more than that over the years, so I'm not trying to discredit his martial art contributions, but rather get to the root of why some considered him a fraud. If he taught Karate when he never really trained in it (aside from the guys that would swing by his parent's house from time to time as a kid), then you can see why other Karateka of his day had problems with his claims no?

[Tez3]

As I have never heard of Bruce Tegner did a little digging around, what I found was that people all over the place credit him with wakening their interest in the martial arts and that he was well thought of by a great many people. Now whether his belts were from a 'genuine' organisation or not....and the defininition of genuine could well take us into another argument..... it really seems irrelevant as the gentleman is deceased and cannot speak up for himself.
Reading posts, information, Wiki and even the site that shan't be named on him it seems that for many his name brought back good memories of reading his books, practising the moves with dads, mates, brothers etc. Even the B site had posters with fond memories of his books and their childhoods.
Can we not leave it at that now and leave this acrimonious 'discussion' to fade on it's own. Let sleeping dogs lie, there's little point in bringing up things that the person named can't defend himself against. Let his detractors sit in their righteousness and his supporters enjoy their memories.

[MJS]

Wow! Been offline a few days due to work, but I can see this thread blew up pretty quick. Given that this is a hot topic, its probably best to take the advice of the mod notes that are in place.

That being said, I'll say this....I don't know much, if anything at all, about the man in question, just what I've been reading here and the small bit of looking I did online. Is he legit? Is he a fake? Don't know, but as its been said, I do think that before anyone says that he is/isn't, some proven facts should be listed.

As far as getting rank without actually training under a live teacher...well, a search of my past posts, should reveal my thoughts on that. I'm not a fan of distance learning, I'm not a fan of people who slap on rank to make others, usually ones that dont know any better, go "ohh and ahh" because they see somone wearing a high rank. I'm not a fan of those who ask to be promoted or demand that they should. Not a fan of kissing ass to get a promotion. I'm not really a fan of honorary ranks either. Hey, if someone wants to give someone recognition for something they did, thats fine and dandy, but, I do feel that the person getting this honorary award, should let it be known that its just that...honorary, and not something that they actually earned with that hard work.

IMHO, I think that nowadays, way too many people put such a value on the high rank, without having much thought for the blood, sweat and tears that should be going into it as well.

Mike

[jukado1]

From Tez3:
""Can we not leave it at that now and leave this acrimonious 'discussion' to fade on it's own. Let sleeping dogs lie, there's little point in bringing up things that the person named can't defend himself against. Let his detractors sit in their righteousness and his supporters enjoy their memories.""

Taz3, We could, But then the same wrong information will continue to be spread, Most of these attacks on Bruce, Or on most other martial artists are put out by those with nothing but the words of some other non knowing person, Case in point, I also post on a Bruce Lee/JKD board, And on that board we have somebody with NO knowledge of Bruce Lee or JKD except from the movies/TV and what he reads on the Internet, This individual does have a background in karate from a backward part of the world, But he has, And continuously puts himself out as an authority on Bruce Lee, He continuously states that Joe Lewis does not know or understand Bruce Lee's JKD, While he does, Now I could sit back and allow this to be said, Except it is false, Joe Lewis learned from Bruce Lee for a year and a half, During a part of this time I was training with Joe, Now if nobody says anything how will beginners know that just maybe they can learn something from Joe Lewis, I mean who would you believe, Somebody who actually trained with and broke bread with Bruce Lee, Or somebody who has seen every movie Bruce Lee made, If I tell a blind man that the ocean is RED how will he know the truth unless someone tells him.
So my answer is no.

[jukado1]

Danjo: Since I'm not an intellectual I don't know how else to explain martial arts to you, Bruce was asked to join the Shukokai to help them have an influence in the U.S. Bruce knew martial arts, Karate is a martial art, (Except for what I saw of Twin Fists,) Bruce had been training in karate with Meany Japanese instructors for Meany years, The Shukokai sent him their requirements for rank with them, Then they sent a group of their people to test Bruce on their requirements, Bruce passed, He showed them that he had the skill and the KNOWLEDGE to deserve in their eyes a 5Th degree black belt, By not in competition shape I mean Bruce was not doing the 500 push ups and sit ups a day he had done while he was training for judo competition, And as far as my question about style, While your styles are different, Do you not believe the knowledge from one style helped you to shortcut your training in another ?

Sorry, I'm starting to ramble, I'm outta here.

[MJS]

Danjo: Since I'm not an intellectual I don't know how else to explain martial arts to you, Bruce was asked to join the Shukokai to help them have an influence in the U.S. Bruce knew martial arts, Karate is a martial art, (Except for what I saw of Twin Fists,) Bruce had been training in karate with Meany Japanese instructors for Meany years, The Shukokai sent him their requirements for rank with them, Then they sent a group of their people to test Bruce on their requirements, Bruce passed, He showed them that he had the skill and the KNOWLEDGE to deserve in their eyes a 5Th degree black belt, By not in competition shape I mean Bruce was not doing the 500 push ups and sit ups a day he had done while he was training for judo competition, And as far as my question about style, While your styles are different, Do you not believe the knowledge from one style helped you to shortcut your training in another ?

Sorry, I'm starting to ramble, I'm outta here.

Just so I'm reading this right. I may be wrong, but this seems the equivilant of distance learning. Did the people who came to see Bruce do any training with him, other than to view his progression on what they had sent him?

[jukado1]

MJS: Sorry but your not reading this right, Bruce had been studying and learning martial arts and unarmed and armed combat since childhood, He had been working with Meany styles of the fighting arts, Primarily of the Japanese arts, But he had also gone out of his way to study everything that was related to fighting/martial arts fighting, Meany of those he had worked with were KARATE teachers, BUT Bruce did not worry about belts, The only belt he was interested in was for judo, HE KNEW KARATE, In the 60's your style was the Kata's you did, Bruce knew and did kata's, Meany were very similar to what the Shukokai wanted, So all that was needed was to adjust the form to their way. Again Bruce did not ask for rank, The Shukokai wanted to rank him so as to get a presence in the U.S.

[Tez3]

Jukado, I see where you are coming from but as someone who has no knowledge of you either I have no way of telling what you are posting is the truth either, this discussion has got so that people are posting insults at each other, childish ones at that so frankly if it's going to carry on that that the subject is better closed. If you can't post without also popping in snide comments how are we to take your posts seriously?
Take your example from MJS, a reasoned thought out post made without sniping.
Post your 'truth' by all means, be prepared to have people question it and answer without acrimony if you want to be taken seriously and not have the thread locked down.
Reading something designed to persuade me you are right then coming across comments like "Karate is a martial art, (Except for what I saw of Twin Fists,)" whichis totally uncalled for and beneath you, doesn't do much to persuade me of your integrity.

Have the courage of your convictions and post a proper defence so we can make our own minds up without having to wade through childish nonsense.

[MJS]

MJS: Sorry but your not reading this right, Bruce had been studying and learning martial arts and unarmed and armed combat since childhood, He had been working with Meany styles of the fighting arts, Primarily of the Japanese arts, But he had also gone out of his way to study everything that was related to fighting/martial arts fighting, Meany of those he had worked with were KARATE teachers, BUT Bruce did not worry about belts, The only belt he was interested in was for judo, HE KNEW KARATE, In the 60's your style was the Kata's you did, Bruce knew and did kata's, Meany were very similar to what the Shukokai wanted, So all that was needed was to adjust the form to their way. Again Bruce did not ask for rank, The Shukokai wanted to rank him so as to get a presence in the U.S.

Well, if I'm reading correctly, this seems to be the very subject...whether or not Bruce actually has any varifiable training. You're claiming he does, others are claiming he does not. I don't know the man, so I am simply asking.

[jukado1]

Taz3: The only reason I post on forums at all is due to the fact I can no longer do martial arts, I have allowed my body to turn in to a large piece of cockroach excrement, So on the Internet I can at least "talk" martial arts and fighting, Normally I only post if the subject is interesting and I can add to the conversation, But on occasion I see things that are so wrong that I can't and won't let them go, If you remember what started this was Danjo saying that Bruce Tegner went bagging to the Shukokai for rank, That's not true, They came to him, And with danjo this is a repeat, He posted the same story on the San Jose kenpo website 2 years ago, And this is really a situation I can't win, I mean how can you prove you don't beat your wife, This is what this is, But its hard for an outsider like me to straighten out the insiders on the board, And as far as twin fist, He has called both my instructor and myself fakes, I did not see anybody taking up for me, If somebody has a reference, Has knowledge they have the right to an opinion, But somebody like this clown who has never seen Bruce Tegner and has no knowledge of me and what I can do says that I think I have a right to get mad, And on Twin Fist, I have a lot of respect for Texas karate fighters, I knew the Greek and Roy Kerbin, And was around when Texas had fighters, Twin Fist from his own u-tubes looks like every other strip mall mcdojo, Sorry I'm ranting, so I'll take a nap and come back and see if I've done enough to be banned.

[Twin Fist]

Karate is a martial art, (Except for what I saw of Twin Fists,)

HOLD THE PHONE

exactly what are you trying to say about me now?

[Twin Fist]

And on Twin Fist, I have a lot of respect for Texas karate fighters, I knew the Greek and Roy Kerbin, And was around when Texas had fighters, Twin Fist from his own u-tubes looks like every other strip mall mcdojo, Sorry I'm ranting,

you know what, i am gonna walk away from this old dude, he isnt worth it

[tshadowchaser]

MOD WARNING

Keep the personal remarks out of this thread
if you do not like what someone is saying use the ignor button

Keep to the subject of the thread

this will be the last warning in this thread


Sheldon Bedell
mt mod

[Tez3]

Taz3: The only reason I post on forums at all is due to the fact I can no longer do martial arts, I have allowed my body to turn in to a large piece of cockroach excrement, So on the Internet I can at least "talk" martial arts and fighting, Normally I only post if the subject is interesting and I can add to the conversation, But on occasion I see things that are so wrong that I can't and won't let them go, If you remember what started this was Danjo saying that Bruce Tegner went bagging to the Shukokai for rank, That's not true, They came to him, And with danjo this is a repeat, He posted the same story on the San Jose kenpo website 2 years ago, And this is really a situation I can't win, I mean how can you prove you don't beat your wife, This is what this is, But its hard for an outsider like me to straighten out the insiders on the board, And as far as twin fist, He has called both my instructor and myself fakes, I did not see anybody taking up for me, If somebody has a reference, Has knowledge they have the right to an opinion, But somebody like this clown who has never seen Bruce Tegner and has no knowledge of me and what I can do says that I think I have a right to get mad, And on Twin Fist, I have a lot of respect for Texas karate fighters, I knew the Greek and Roy Kerbin, And was around when Texas had fighters, Twin Fist from his own u-tubes looks like every other strip mall mcdojo, Sorry I'm ranting, so I'll take a nap and come back and see if I've done enough to be banned.

My post were for everyone to stop name calling and sniping

No one is saying you can't defend someone you think is being maligned, thats not the problem, all you are being asked is that you don't use added insults as you have again in this post. If you feel someone is wrong post up the evidence and they will be shown to be wrong but it can be done in a gentlemanly fashion.
Just saying so and so did this proves nothing and gives ammunition to those who disagree, this goes for everyone not just you.

Post up as much evidence as you can that can be checked by people who aren't involved in this, answer questions civilly and it may turn out to be an interesting discussion yet.

Jukado and Twin fist, one of you if not both be the better person and stop the bickering, you are both committing one of the sins I find most annoying....being boring!:whip1: Get a grip gentlemen.

[Tez3]

Ah mods warning posted as I was writing.

[Milt G.]

Taz3: The only reason I post on forums at all is due to the fact I can no longer do martial arts, I have allowed my body to turn in to a large piece of cockroach excrement, So on the Internet I can at least "talk" martial arts and fighting, Normally I only post if the subject is interesting and I can add to the conversation, But on occasion I see things that are so wrong that I can't and won't let them go, If you remember what started this was Danjo saying that Bruce Tegner went bagging to the Shukokai for rank, That's not true, They came to him, And with danjo this is a repeat, He posted the same story on the San Jose kenpo website 2 years ago, And this is really a situation I can't win, I mean how can you prove you don't beat your wife, This is what this is, But its hard for an outsider like me to straighten out the insiders on the board, And as far as twin fist, He has called both my instructor and myself fakes, I did not see anybody taking up for me, If somebody has a reference, Has knowledge they have the right to an opinion, But somebody like this clown who has never seen Bruce Tegner and has no knowledge of me and what I can do says that I think I have a right to get mad, And on Twin Fist, I have a lot of respect for Texas karate fighters, I knew the Greek and Roy Kerbin, And was around when Texas had fighters, Twin Fist from his own u-tubes looks like every other strip mall mcdojo, Sorry I'm ranting, so I'll take a nap and come back and see if I've done enough to be banned.

Hello,

I understand that you are defending the good name of your instructor. An honorable and loyal undertaking. And I do believe your teacher is no longer with us?

Sadly, the martial arts has degraded into a "who is more legitimate" and "my instructor was better, and there before your instructor" thing for many. Takes the real importance away in some respects. As was stated by "Doc" in another thread, the important thing is the impact your instructor had on YOU. Most of the rest becomes a "urination" contest, sometimes.

As I have stated before, I cannot comment on your instructors rank or training. You are best qualified to do that, between the two of us. I can only say that he is considered a pioneer of the martial arts in this country regardless of the training he had, or the rank he held. He was instrumental to my "journey", as well. Most high ranking instructors today cannot claim that "impact" on the martial arts as a whole for themselves. Even those few who were around "in the day". I happen to have his books: "Nerve Centers and Pressure Points" and "Judo and Karate Belt Degrees" right in front of me as I write this. I have had these books for many years.

I know you will never be able to "convince" everyone that Bruce tegner was this, or that. Every statement you make can and will be disputed by somebody. if you stated a place and time of Mr. Tegner's actual test, some will ask; "What time did it happen?" "Only the afternoon tests were the REAL tests", etc... There are almost as many opinions as their are practitioners. :)

Suffice it to say that Bruce Tegner's legacy, while disputed by some, was quite important to the development of the martial arts in this country. To go into much more detail will open the door to more questions related to more details. Many of which cannot be proven as the key player is no longer with us. Brings to mind the "James Mitose" exchanges... :)

Thank you for your information and participation. I was able to get quite a bit out of it.
All of you.

Milt G.

[still learning]

Hello, Rumors and misinformations....happens to the best of us....

for Bruce Tegner...who started before many of us were born or old enough to really know him....will never KNOW the truths...

Bruce Tegner ....was a great martial artist in his time...and one of the many that brought Karate to the USA...

Read his books...very informative...and true today....for traditionals...

Aloha,

PS: spreading the rumors ....can hurt if wrong!

[Bob Hubbard]

Thread locked while we decide if we're lopping any heads off for ignoring 3 Official and 7 Unofficial warnings to cut out the grade school yard level crap.