Shen Chuan

[jwreck]

Anyone heard of this? Any opinions? I recently saw a videotape and was very impressed.

[KennethKu]

Does it mean "God Fist" in Chinese? Rather arrogant there, wouldn't you think?

[Bod]

Lohan Chuan is 8 immortals fist and that isn't seen as arrogant.

[Samurai]

Ask PeSilat (Mike Casto) on this list. He is an instructor in this system.

I have been to one seminar with Joe Lansdale (founder) and one seminar with Mike Casto and I like Shen Chuen.

The roots are Kenpo, Aiki-jitsu, and Silat. Everything is relaxed and easy going. Fun stuff.

--Jeremy bays

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Bod
Lohan Chuan is 8 immortals fist and that isn't seen as arrogant.

I thought there were 18 Lohans.

I have no idea what Lohan Chuan is all about, except that it is often quoted in fictions. It has been described as some ancient art.

However, Shen Chuan is a modern gig, put together by some guy who also calls himself Professor. In our society, if you call the art you created God's Fist, I would say it is of poor taste and a reflection of your level of maturity and humility.

[jwreck]

Actually, they say it means spirit fist, its a reference to their relaxed striking techniques. Striking without striking... with a spirit fist.

[pesilat]

Yup. "Shen Chuan" means "Spirit Fist" (or at least that's the interpretation that Prof. Lansdale uses).

The roots of the system are Hapkido, Kenpo, and Daito Ryu Aikijutsu with influences from many other systems including Chin Na, Small Circle Jujitsu, and others.

Prof. Lansdale used the Chinese name to pay respect to the influence the Chinese arts had on his development and the large influence the Chinese arts have had on the martial arts in general - he doesn't believe they've influenced every art, but they've certainly influenced a lot of them either directly or indirectly.

The first thing a person learns in the Shen Chuan curriculum is striking. It's drawn mostly from Kenpo and looks quite a bit like Kenpo. Then the student gets into some depth of locking - drawn largely from Hapkido with influences from other arts such as Chin Na. Then the student starts exploring balance disruption - primarily from Daito Ryu. Along the way, the student continues to develop striking and locking. And the "striking without striking" and the "locking without locking" start developing.

What is meant by these is that when striking, it's "nonclassical" striking - from the outside, it doesn't appear to have a lot of power or to even be an intentional strike; looks more like an incidental movement, but when it hits, it hits with a lot of force and penetration.

Same with the "locking without locking." The locking becomes somewhat "nonclassical." It no longer looks like the practitioner is "applying" locks - but they still hurt just like any other lock.

Then these start tying into the balance disruptions. The striking, locking, and balance disruptions are all different aspects of the same object. When Prof. Lansdale moves, it kinda looks like he's an absent-minded professor. Someone grabs him, and he remembers that he left his glasses in another room. When he turns to get his glasses, he "accidentally" hits the guy a few times and knocks him down. When someone punches at him, it looks like he's heard someone call his name from some other direction. He just turns to answer the call and the punch misses him. He bumps the guy and the guy stumbles off balance.

Obviously, if you've been around the arts long enough, you've met other people who move like this. Shen Chuan isn't the only path to get to that place. It's just the path that Prof. Lansdale wound up taking and now guides other people along.

I met Prof. Lansdale in '98. At that time, I had about 20 years of martial arts behind me and I'd been fortunate to have met and trained with some really good instructors. I didn't impress very easily. Prof. Lansdale and his system of Shen Chuan impressed me enough that I moved down to Texas to train with him.

I was also impressed with the fact that Prof. Lansdale and his group were not only willing to share what they had with me, but willing to learn from me as well. They know that what they have is good - but the also know that there's other good stuff out there. They're very confident in their art and abilities while also being very open to learning new things. It's a rare combination in the MA world.

If you have the chance to meet Prof. Lansdale or any of his guys and, especially, if you have the chance to train with them, I'd highly recommend it. They (we, since I'm one of them) are a good group of folks with good knowledge to share.

Mike

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
Yup. "Shen Chuan" means "Spirit Fist" (or at least that's the interpretation that Prof. Lansdale uses).

The roots of the system are Hapkido, Kenpo, and Daito Ryu Aikijutsu with influences from many other systems including Chin Na, Small Circle Jujitsu, and others.

Prof. Lansdale used the Chinese name to pay respect to the influence the Chinese arts had on his development and the large influence the Chinese arts have had on the martial arts in general - he doesn't believe they've influenced every art, but they've certainly influenced a lot of them either directly or indirectly.

The first thing a person learns in the Shen Chuan curriculum is striking. It's drawn mostly from Kenpo and looks quite a bit like Kenpo. Then the student gets into some depth of locking - drawn largely from Hapkido with influences from other arts such as Chin Na. Then the student starts exploring balance disruption - primarily from Daito Ryu. Along the way, the student continues to develop striking and locking. And the "striking without striking" and the "locking without locking" start developing.

What is meant by these is that when striking, it's "nonclassical" striking - from the outside, it doesn't appear to have a lot of power or to even be an intentional strike; looks more like an incidental movement, but when it hits, it hits with a lot of force and penetration.

Same with the "locking without locking." The locking becomes somewhat "nonclassical." It no longer looks like the practitioner is "applying" locks - but they still hurt just like any other lock.

Then these start tying into the balance disruptions. The striking, locking, and balance disruptions are all different aspects of the same object. When Prof. Lansdale moves, it kinda looks like he's an absent-minded professor. Someone grabs him, and he remembers that he left his glasses in another room. When he turns to get his glasses, he "accidentally" hits the guy a few times and knocks him down. When someone punches at him, it looks like he's heard someone call his name from some other direction. He just turns to answer the call and the punch misses him. He bumps the guy and the guy stumbles off balance.

Obviously, if you've been around the arts long enough, you've met other people who move like this. Shen Chuan isn't the only path to get to that place. It's just the path that Prof. Lansdale wound up taking and now guides other people along.

I met Prof. Lansdale in '98. At that time, I had about 20 years of martial arts behind me and I'd been fortunate to have met and trained with some really good instructors. I didn't impress very easily. Prof. Lansdale and his system of Shen Chuan impressed me enough that I moved down to Texas to train with him.

I was also impressed with the fact that Prof. Lansdale and his group were not only willing to share what they had with me, but willing to learn from me as well. They know that what they have is good - but the also know that there's other good stuff out there. They're very confident in their art and abilities while also being very open to learning new things. It's a rare combination in the MA world.

If you have the chance to meet Prof. Lansdale or any of his guys and, especially, if you have the chance to train with them, I'd highly recommend it. They (we, since I'm one of them) are a good group of folks with good knowledge to share.

Mike

pesilat,
Are you Sikal at defend.net?:asian:

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
pesilat,
Are you Sikal at defend.net?:asian:

Yup ... that's my "alter ego" :)

"pesilat" and "sikal" are the two usernames that I use almost everywhere on the internet. If I'm not using one of those, I'm using my real name which I always have in my sig line anyway :)

Mike

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
Yup ... that's my "alter ego" :)

"pesilat" and "sikal" are the two usernames that I use almost everywhere on the internet. If I'm not using one of those, I'm using my real name which I always have in my sig line anyway :)

Mike

Cool, I use akja everywhere also.

We've talked there before, but that place for some reason reminds me of a cemetary now.:cool:

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
Cool, I use akja everywhere also.

We've talked there before, but that place for some reason reminds me of a cemetary now.:cool:

Yup. It has ups and downs ... I think all boards are cyclical to some degree or another. But when you get a lot of members (like this one), it tends to even things out some.

I don't know how many members defend.net has, but I don't think it's as many as here.

Mike

[KennethKu]

Shen in Chinese character can mean god, spirit, or mental focus. I suppose in this case, it is the common problem of trying to use foreign characters to describe what you originally have in mind. Besides, a common name like Bob's Fist probably not a hot choice.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Shen in Chinese character can mean god, spirit, or mental focus. I suppose in this case, it is the common problem of trying to use foreign characters to describe what you originally have in mind. Besides, a common name like Bob's Fist probably not a hot choice.

LOL ... yeah ... "Bob's Fist" would've been a really strange name since Prof. Lansdale's name is Joe ;)

Mike

[KennethKu]

With all due respect, if he thinks he is paying respect by using that character to describe his art, he is definitely gaining the wrong kind of respect by the truck load in Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, ROC, PROC, and among the Chinese disapora. He would be regarded as an arrogant ass at first and after hearing his explaination, he would be laughed at as one of those Westerners trying imitate what is authentic Asian. Mr. Lansdale may be a decent and respectable person, I wouldn't know.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KennethKu
With all due respect, if he thinks he is paying respect by using that character to describe his art, he is definitely gaining the wrong kind of respect by the truck load in Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, ROC, PROC, and among the Chinese disapora. He would be regarded as an arrogant ass at first and after hearing his explaination, he would be laughed at as one of those Westerners trying imitate what is authentic Asian. Mr. Lansdale may be a decent and respectable person, I wouldn't know.

Yes, he is a very decent and respectable person. And a very good martial artist :)

But why would he be regarded as arrogant or laughed at? He makes no claims that it's an Asian art. He considers it an American art and describes as such. The name is an homage to some of the arts that influenced Joe and that he has a lot of respect for.

But I'm not the best person to be addressing this :) I just train and teach what I learned from him. I just know that it's a good system and that's my primary concern.

Mike

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by pesilat
LOL ... yeah ... "Bob's Fist" would've been a really strange name since Prof. Lansdale's name is Joe ;)

Mike

The name of either "Joe's Fist" or "Bob's Fist" just brings to mind some images I'd rather not see... ;)

And if asked "what art do you study," I'd be flatly afraid of saying "Joe's Fist."

:lol: :lol:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

I remember this guy from some thread on E-Budo about a year or two ago.
As I recall the thread wasn't very kind to Landsdale.

[jwreck]

Originally posted by pesilat


If you have the chance to meet Prof. Lansdale or any of his guys and, especially, if you have the chance to train with them, I'd highly recommend it. They (we, since I'm one of them) are a good group of folks with good knowledge to share.

Mike Thanks for the input. I'm trying to arrange to start training with Prof. Lansdale soon. Just wanted to hear some opinions first.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
I remember this guy from some thread on E-Budo about a year or two ago.
As I recall the thread wasn't very kind to Landsdale.

Yup. But none of those people had ever met him or seen the system.

What people say means nothing to me. What I see and experience firsthand is what matters to me.

What I experienced firsthand with Joe is that he's a top notch martial artist and a very cool person. A bunch of people spouting garbage on the net means nothing to me ... or to Joe, for that matter.

For anyone who wants to find out about Joe and Shen Chuan, I say, go to Nacogdoches and check him and his people out. They're not going anywhere. And they have an annual event called Camp Lansdale (first weekend of October). Every year, Joe brings in people from various systems as guest instructors and, of course, Joe and his senior students teach during the camp as well. It's a good time :)

Mike

[pesilat]

Originally posted by jwreck
Thanks for the input. I'm trying to arrange to start training with Prof. Lansdale soon. Just wanted to hear some opinions first.

Cool. Well, I'll be down to visit in July and then down for Camp Lansdale in October. If you're down there, then, I'll see you :)

Mike

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by pesilat
Yes, he is a very decent and respectable person. And a very good martial artist :)

But why would he be regarded as arrogant or laughed at? He makes no claims that it's an Asian art. He considers it an American art and describes as such. The name is an homage to some of the arts that influenced Joe and that he has a lot of respect for.

But I'm not the best person to be addressing this :) I just train and teach what I learned from him. I just know that it's a good system and that's my primary concern.

Mike

It is like a Chinese naming his art "Abraham-Rachel-Isaac Fist". How do you think that would go in Israel? OR "Mohammed Fist" and try that in Saudi Arabia? After you have explained your desire to express total respect, people there are just going to roll their eyes. (I am quite sure you would be "Jihaded" for blasphemy of Islam.)

I am not tyring to nag on the guy. This is just like pointing out to some guy his pant fly is open. If he retorts that he likes it that way, that is just fine with me.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KennethKu
It is like a Chinese naming his art "Abraham-Rachel-Isaac Fist". How do you think that would go in Israel? OR "Mohammed Fist" and try that in Saudi Arabia? After you have explained your desire to express total respect, people there are just going to roll their eyes. (I am quite sure you would be "Jihaded" for blasphemy of Islam.)

I am not tyring to nag on the guy. This is just like pointing out to some guy his pant fly is open. If he retorts that he likes it that way, that is just fine with me.

LOL ... nicely put :)

But, as you said, the character can mean "god, spirit, or mental focus"

To call it "God Fist" would be pretty arrogant. "Spirit Fist" though is an entirely different meaning. So I don't think comparing "Spirit Fist" to "Mohammed Fist" is similar at all. In fact, "Mohammed" wasn't "God" ... that would be "Allah." But I still don't see how using the interpretation of "spirit" can be seen as arrogance.

Mike