Uechi-ryu karate, which is essentially a Southern kung fu style, uses the knuckles of the toes in its front kick. That is, the toes are curled down and the kick hits with the bent joints on the top of the toes. Some kung fu styles kick with the ends (tips) of the toes. Most karate styles however use the ball of the foot for the front kick (as well as the heel, which tends to be slightly more emphasized in Okinawan systems). Isshin-ryu and other systems also have a "fish kick" that uses the top of the foot to strike the groin; in one version the toes are pointed up (as for a ball of the foot front kick) after impact and used to rake back across the groin after the initial hit as the foot is retracted. The fish kick however is not the principal front kick of the system, whereas the Uechi toe-knuckle kick is.

Are there are any other karate styles that front kick with something other than the ball and/or heel of the foot?

Originally posted by arnisador

Isshin-ryu and other systems also have a "fish kick" that uses the top of the foot to strike the groin; in one version the toes are pointed up (as for a ball of the foot front kick) after impact and used to rake back across the groin after the initial hit as the foot is retracted.

This sounds much like the scoop kick from American Kenpo. You kick up and under, but also slightly beyond your target, and retract whilst applying pressure in an upward motion.
--Dave

none that i know of unless you are doing a groin kick wich uses your instep. there is one in kung fu that is called a monk's spade it is a scooping groin kick..very painful. you use the tips of your toes when pullng he kick back and hooking your opponents groin area.

Originally posted by Shinzu

there is one in kung fu that is called a monk's spade it is a scooping groin kick..very painful. you use the tips of your toes when pullng he kick back and hooking your opponents groin area.

I think this is the same as the Isshin-ryu fish kick I mentioned.

Ryukyu kempo uses some single-toe kicks (the big toe, pointed out to hit just one spot).

Hey, I'm new to the forum and thought I'd post. I'm liking it so far.

Anyway, since I'm a Muay Thai practitioner, it's good for me to read about other arts. Kind of makes me glad I am a muay thai practitioner, because we don't have groin kicks! I don't know if that's a good thing or not. I guess sport-oriented arts do limit you a lot that way, as I'm seeing here.

Anyway, just had to interject. Sounds painful.

I had an instructor who used hi big toe for kicking targets, his favorite threat was that he would give you sphincter klemp. He'd someone right at the anus and it would be painful for days.

In American Kenpo we use a scoop kick where rakes the toes along the under side of the groin, also very painful.

And never forget the difference between the snap kicks and the thrusts.

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

He'd someone right at the anus and it would be painful for days.

I understand that there are Chinese finger ripping techniques along these lines.

And never forget the difference between the snap kicks and the thrusts.

Yes, a good point. In my experience the Okinawan systems like upward-directed thrust kicks; the Japanese systems strongly prefer the snap kick. Both kicks are in both sets of styles of cousre (though I don't recall a thrust kick in Uechi, which is always the exception).

In Okinawa-te, we make a strict distinction between thrust kicks and snap kicks in both their delivery and their respective uses. In general, our front kicks are delivered with the ball of the foot, though we occasionally practiced with the toe for when we would be wearing shoes. I just got around all that by usually wearing steel-toed shoes. I figured as long as some part of the front of the shoe connected, it'd hurt :)

Cthulhu

The Front Kick is done with the knuckles of the
foot?

Is the kick only done to a soft area? and in an
upwards direction? Or it done is thrust?

How do you hold your toes so that they do
not break?

Curious ?!? Very Curious ?!? :eek:


Rich Parsons

It is done to soft areas, and there are exercises for strengthening the toes. But it's weird!

why isn't the instep used more?

In Goju I was taught to kick with the toes with certain targets, for example if throwing a round house kick at the Quad muscle in the leg you would use the toes as you are trying to tear the muscle from the bone. There are other times also when I would use the toes.

Thanks

Joe

Originally posted by Shinzu
none that i know of unless you are doing a groin kick wich uses your instep.

This is the only type of front kick with the toes curled forward that i know of, also. :shrug:

Originally posted by sweeper
why isn't the instep used more?

Insteps break... the ball of the foot doesn't. Maybe this is why? ...unsure. But it all depends on the target area, the front kick with the instep couldnt be applied to the opponents stomach if faced straight, on unless the opponent was bent over. The instep kick would have to come from underneath and be driven straight up... to kick the groin. the instep could be used to kick the stomach but only from a roundhouse kick.

Originally posted by vin2k0
Insteps break... the ball of the foot doesn't. Maybe this is why? ...unsure.

That's about it. The instep is fine for kicking someone in the groin, but against a harder target, like the jawbone or the knee for instance, you'd want to use a part of your body with more natural padding, like the ball of your foot.

In TKD (which we know was heavily influenced by karate) our primary front kick is a snapping kick with the ball of the foot.

I knew a Uechi-ryu stylist who practiced a toe kick that was done by placing the index toe on top of the big toe. The striking surface was the re-enforced big toes tip. He was able to position this very quickly, a trick I've never been able to duplicate. He also used this for soft and muscle tissue. He greatly enjoyed certain targets on the inside thigh.

-Sauzin

Originally posted by Sauzin
I knew a Uechi-ryu stylist who practiced a toe kick that was done by placing the index toe on top of the big toe. The striking surface was the re-enforced big toes tip. He was able to position this very quickly, a trick I've never been able to duplicate. He also used this for soft and muscle tissue. He greatly enjoyed certain targets on the inside thigh.

-Sauzin

Damn, he must have double jointed toes.

--Dave

:)

ueichi kicks run the gammut from toe kicks to ball of the foot to heel kicks. It depends on the sensei's preference and whetere or not he has trained either in okinowa. (the okinowan's and floridians seem to prefer the toe kick more)

There also seems to be an association preference involved. In addition the front kick is (in the cali area) typically not used as a damaging technique but as a delay or a block in its own right.

Arnisador,

Here is a picture of Nagamine's toe-kick from his 1976 text, "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do".

In Seikichi Iha's web site (www.ihadojo.com), he says the following:

"All shorin-ryu kicks are done with the toes. Sometimes the second toe wraps itself around the big toe to reinforce it for kicking."

Although I have not seen it, a peer of mine has witnessed Iha Sensei skipping rope on the toe knuckles of his foot. While it may seem strange at first glance, we all know that ballerinas condition their feet to walk on their toes.

Perhaps the oddest thing about Iha's kicks is that they don't extend. He says the kick should extend no further than the punch, and when his students kick, their hips are back and do not extend at all.

Now that you mention, I have seen this one before!

Originally posted by arnisador
Uechi-ryu karate, which is essentially a Southern kung fu style, uses the knuckles of the toes in its front kick. That is, the toes are curled down and the kick hits with the bent joints on the top of the toes. Some kung fu styles kick with the ends (tips) of the toes. Most karate styles however use the ball of the foot for the front kick (as well as the heel, which tends to be slightly more emphasized in Okinawan systems). Isshin-ryu and other systems also have a "fish kick" that uses the top of the foot to strike the groin; in one version the toes are pointed up (as for a ball of the foot front kick) after impact and used to rake back across the groin after the initial hit as the foot is retracted. The fish kick however is not the principal front kick of the system, whereas the Uechi toe-knuckle kick is.

Are there are any other karate styles that front kick with something other than the ball and/or heel of the foot?

There isnt a whole lot of give in your toes when you kick with the top knuckles. I just wonder why you'd risk breaking your toes when the same if not better results can be aquired from the ball or even the end of the toes with shoes on. Just curious but wouldnt bending your toes like that be similar to dipping your head when charging or tackling someone in gridiron (hey im australian, football is aussie rules). This is a big no no and i know Dennis Byrd broke his neck doing this so just by feeling the position i reckon my toes would break.

Just some thoughts
Cheers
Sammy

There isnt a whole lot of give in your toes when you kick with the top knuckles. I just wonder why you'd risk breaking your toes when the same if not better results can be aquired from the ball or even the end of the toes with shoes on.

I too think it seems like a prescription for broken toes...but then, when they're splayed out while kicking with the ball of the foot, there's risk too! I don't know what the shoe situation was like when the art was developed (probably in the 1800s in Southern China, as Pangai-noon).

My judo and jujutsu's karate instructor's style highly emphasized kicking with the toes. He could put a hole through a kerosene can using his toes. Can't remember exactly what style it was though. Might have been Shorin-ryu or Hakkoryu karate

Hello everyone, I am an Uechi practitioner and I had to chime in to clear up some misconseptions some are having about our style of kicking. We do not use the top knuckle of our toes to kick, good way to break your toes. Instead it is a different style of front toe kick, the stricking surface is the tip of the big toe. The toes are raised similar to a ball joint kick but instead of pointing the toes straight up in the air the top joint bends forward tightening your foot. The kick is delivered just like any other front snap kick and uses the tip of the big toe to penetrate the target. It takes some time to condition the muscles in your feet as well as the stricking surface.

Here is a link with a pretty good description of th Okinawan toe kick, the Uechi toe kick is shown kicking a tire, great conditioning tool!

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=407

A thrusting front kick can be done using the heel.

Are there are any other karate styles that front kick with something other than the ball and/or heel of the foot?

We have a kick, tatesokutogeri, that is a bit like a cross between maegeri and sokutogeri, i.e. you kick to your front but with the side of your foot. The direction is usually a bit downwards. Good kick to push your opponent away from you

Oh, forgot to mention about tatesokutogeri that I don't know how unique the kick is, but as I understand it, and one or two other kicks are taken from Tauramuso ryu jujutsu.

Which reminds me, I forgot to mention our other front kick, also originally (?) from Tauramuso ryu: komawashigeri. This is, as the name implies, a short range mawashigeri, where you don't turn your hips for the kick, i.e. when the opponent is too close to you to use the regular mawashigeri.

Unfortunately there is no good video material available of either of these kicks (or if there is, it's not online to the best of my knowledge)

Shifu Khu Chen Yong, who is one of my sensei's Jujutsu student, but actually a Kuntao master on his own, has very unusual front kick. It uses the foot knife (the side of the foot) like a sidekick, but delivered to the front.

We have a kick, tatesokutogeri, that is a bit like a cross between maegeri and sokutogeri, i.e. you kick to your front but with the side of your foot. The direction is usually a bit downwards. Good kick to push your opponent away from you

Ahh... the kick that Khu Chen Yong are doing is just like that. Its primarily use is to break the knee. So, you trap opponent's hand using Kuntao hand movement, and simultaneously apply this kick to his knee.

Its primarily use is to break the knee.

Yep, it can be quite effectively used for that also

In Seieikan, thus far, I've practiced two types of front kicks. The front snap kick uses the ball of the foot with toes pulled back. I also practice a thrusting kick using as much of the sole of the kicking foot as I can land on my oppponent.

I also practice a thrusting kick using as much of the sole of the kicking foot as I can land on my oppponent.

Not a heel thrust, then, but more like a Thai push kick? Or is it a strike, but with the whole bottom of the foot?

Not a heel thrust, then, but more like a Thai push kick? Or is it a strike, but with the whole bottom of the foot?

Push kick is probably more accurate. The impetus seems to be not necessarily to strike or score (though I could) but to separate.

Push kick is probably more accurate. The impetus seems to be not necessarily to strike or score (though I could) but to separate.

Oh, yes that one. Tae Kwon Do has that one kick too. If your opponent is a clincher or likes to get in close so he/she won't get kicked, you use this kick to push them away from you and follow up with a nice ap-chagi to the body protector. For best score use the other foot, so your technique will looks a little bit like karate's nidan geri a'la kata Kusanku or Chinto.

I only ever use my front snap kick as a groin shot so I almost never use it in sparring except maybe as a "jab" to guage distance. In the street, I have shoes or boots on (maybe steel toed) and I don't worry too much about the striking surface used. My front thrust kick is awkward and uses the heel as the striking surface. I like to use it to step into a punch (MY punch, not theirs...) and it essentially becomes just a big offensive, aggressive, stepping-punch. I prefer a narrow 45 degree stance to having my shoulders square, so I tend to be a side-kicker (and I like to place those in the pelvic bone between both hips). I usually use my front kick to put my foot up on a fence to stretch or tie my shoes.

I knew a Uechi-ryu stylist who practiced a toe kick that was done by placing the index toe on top of the big toe. The striking surface was the re-enforced big toes tip. He was able to position this very quickly, a trick I've never been able to duplicate. He also used this for soft and muscle tissue. He greatly enjoyed certain targets on the inside thigh.

-Sauzin

well we use the big toe on certain targets on the inside of the thigh too. there are times when my style uses the toe to hit softer targets. other wise the front snap is normaly done with the ball of the foot.

How do you guys get your toes tough enough to use as a striking surface? I guess it's like a spear hand, some people really can do it. Impressive.

ouch.....i don't have anythign agaisnt karate or kung fu but why would you kick with the knuckles of your toes curled down?? wouldn't that mean easier broken toes?? i understand to the groin but anywhere else seems too risky....

What he said...

How do you guys get your toes tough enough to use as a striking surface? I guess it's like a spear hand, some people really can do it. Impressive.

Have you seen this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc

Astonishing and painful to watch. Thanks.

Have you seen this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWfXX5aQhjc

Ouch! Great clip though. It really brings out the fact that you can indeed strike with some of these unusual hand positions.

Steel toes all the way. One less thing to think about.

ouch.....i don't have anythign agaisnt karate or kung fu but why would you kick with the knuckles of your toes curled down?? wouldn't that mean easier broken toes?? i understand to the groin but anywhere else seems too risky....


no it might be done with the pint of the big toe and other toes aghenst the big to to stiffen the big toe. and once agian it is agenst only the targets and the toe is pointed or the ball of the foot is used. ... do not understand the toes curled down myself.

We have a kick, tatesokutogeri, that is a bit like a cross between maegeri and sokutogeri, i.e. you kick to your front but with the side of your foot. The direction is usually a bit downwards. Good kick to push your opponent away from you

Ive seen that taught in sanshou (kungfu competition sparring), done either to the leg or as a pushkick/stop kick to the body, but Ive never seen it in karate.

Ive seen that taught in sanshou (kungfu competition sparring), done either to the leg or as a pushkick/stop kick to the body, but Ive never seen it in karate.

I think it came into my (now already former) karatestyle from Tauramuso ryu jujutsu, a style that both my (former) sensei and his sensei have been practising. Ikubo sensei, my former sensei's sensei, is actually the style's current headmaster

Ive seen that taught in sanshou (kungfu competition sparring), done either to the leg or as a pushkick/stop kick to the body, but Ive never seen it in karate.
if I have understood you correctly you are talking about what we reffer to as a "front thrust kick." useing a "stomping like piston action" with the foot to the front.

its normaly targeted at knees and pelvic gurdle and would and does work agenst the hip as a stop kick... but given a choice of takeing a knee out or useing it as a stop kick on the street, you can guess what target I am going for.