General Choi

[goingd]

A lot of people will associate Choi Hong Hi as the founder of Taekwondo because it was most likely he who submitted the name of the art. Some will even say he founded not only the ITF, but the WTF.
Taekwondo was [basically] formed by the original nine kwans (of which Choi led one of them). Additionally, the World Taekwondo Federation was not formed until after Choi was exiled.

Choi did introduce Taekwondo to the Korean military. I think his exile was plain stupid. He was very traditional and I admire him for that.

^~^

[granfire]

Well, nothing as stupid as the politics between the 2 halves of a split country.

From what I gather, his claim to 'Father' of the art lies within the position he had to introduce it to the military and taking the decision away from the conference table.

[chrispillertkd]

I think his exile was plain stupid. He was very traditional and I admire him for that.

^~^

Given the track record of Park, Chung Hee (the President of Korea at the time) and the fact that Gen. Choi had court martialed Chung and sentenced him to death during their time in the army I'm not so sure Gen. Choi's exile was "stupid" :) Looking at things in historical context, there was real concern for his safety, to say the least.

Pax,

Chris

[Twin Fist]

well, we KNOW Choi went insane before he died, Nothing else explains sine wave......

[miguksaram]

A lot of people will associate Choi Hong Hi as the founder of Taekwondo because it was most likely he who submitted the name of the art. Some will even say he founded not only the ITF, but the WTF.
Taekwondo was [basically] formed by the original nine kwans (of which Choi led one of them). Additionally, the World Taekwondo Federation was not formed until after Choi was exiled.

Choi did introduce Taekwondo to the Korean military. I think his exile was plain stupid. He was very traditional and I admire him for that.

^~^

I suggest you do a lot more research on this subject. That way you will know why he was exiled as well as his role. You contradict yourself where you say he founded the WTF and then go on to say the WTF was formed after his exhile. Not that it matters, Choi did not form the WTF.

[Marginal]

well, we KNOW Choi went insane before he died, Nothing else explains sine wave......
Geesh. It's not like you have to do it. It doesn't decrease power, ruin techinque etc, so fretting about it is pointless.

[Earl Weiss]

well, we KNOW Choi went insane before he died, Nothing else explains sine wave......

Only your lack of understanding.

Read Bruce Lee's Secret of the one and 2 inch punch. Was he insane?

Watch how boxer's flex their knees, are they insane?

Research kinetic linking as addressed on the XMA show using computer analyzed motion capture photography. Are they insane as well?

[msmitht]

So you think that his exile was stupid? It was better that executing him. He was part of an attempted Coup. They failed and many were put to death. Since he was considered the "father" of tkd they exiled him and he spent the rest of his years in canada.
Get your facts straight next time.

[goingd]

I did NOT say that he founded the WTF. I said that there are people who say that. Kay? Read...

I think his exile was stupid. I think execution would have been stupider. I think the fact that there had to be a choice was stupid.

Sometimes I'm just amazed at the assumptions some people make on this forum. Honestly a disappointment and a turn off.

@~@

[ACJ]

Only your lack of understanding.

Read Bruce Lee's Secret of the one and 2 inch punch. Was he insane?

Watch how boxer's flex their knees, are they insane?

Research kinetic linking as addressed on the XMA show using computer analyzed motion capture photography. Are they insane as well?

Or perhaps it is not in fact "sine wave" that is insane, just how people in certain branches of the ITF do it (not sure if that's Choi's fault or not) and how they treat it as some sort of holy grail of power.

[Twin Fist]

or the fact that it looks retarded

[ACJ]

or the fact that it looks retarded

You're an idiot. You use sine wave. You just don't look like the ITFers.

[Kwan Jang]

Regardless of your political roots in TKD. The man did a lot towards the organization and growth of TKD in it's infancy. Still, IMO the credit as founders of TKD should go to the Kwan founders/leaders who organized and taught the art rather than the politician who used his military position to strong arm them into getting his way.

Imagine today if a military general who was second dan (many Japanese sources say first dan) in shotokan during a time of war and draft/ conscription used his position to pull your countries MA schools together under one umbrella, re-name it and send anyone who disagreed to nearly certain death on the front lines. Those who played ball with him were given very comfortable positions. How well would you like and respect this man? I've talked with GM's who were young, but there at the time and they had as much "respect" for the man as you likely would have.

No matter how Gen. Choi and his followers have twisted the recorded history, he was given an honorary 4th dan (as opposed to the legitimate rank of the original Kwan Jang Nims) for a reason. This honorary rank was also taken back because he tried to pretend it was real and demanded a higher one from the KJN of the CDK. This happened before his exile and while he still had considerable political power in South Korea and they ran newspaper stories from the time that can still be accessed and translated on the internet.

It can be argued that without his influence, the Kwan leaders would never have organized on their own and what is now TKD would never have been spread throughout the world the way it has. His methods left a bad taste in many mouths though. Regardless, he did make a contribution to the growth of the art. Just don't be surprised that many were glad to be rid of him and his influence at the time. And others today from other branches of TKD don't regard him nearly as highly as many of his followers.

[goingd]

It is good to learn more about him. I never felt particularly positive or negative towards him. I never liked the twisting of history which is so prevalent in so many Korean martial arts. Though, my understanding was that it was Korea's president at the time that requested the unification of the kwans.

[Twin Fist]

It is good to learn more about him. I never felt particularly positive or negative towards him.


this

[miguksaram]

I did NOT say that he founded the WTF. I said that there are people who say that. Kay? Read...

I think his exile was stupid. I think execution would have been stupider. I think the fact that there had to be a choice was stupid.

Sometimes I'm just amazed at the assumptions some people make on this forum. Honestly a disappointment and a turn off.

@~@

As I'm disappointed about people who would come on here state an opinoin and not back it up with any logical reasoning. "I think his exile was stupid"...Ok...so what. Why do you think that?

You are basicly taking other people's information and just blindly putting it out there with no logical thought process behind it.


Some will even say he founded not only the ITF, but the WTF.
And what do you say? By placing a statement like this on your posting you lead the read to believe that you subscribe to the same idea unless you post something to contradict the viewpoint itself or throw out some sort of question asking for feedback on the statement.


Choi did introduce Taekwondo to the Korean military. I think his exile was plain stupid. He was very traditional and I admire him for that
How do you feel he was traditional?

[terryl965]

General Choi was one of many people bringing TKD to the limelight. I was not in any meetings or know anything first hand, but I have talked to alot of G.M. and they have all said he was a (revolutionary in the Art of TKD), whatever that means.

[ACJ]

And what do you say? By placing a statement like this on your posting you lead the read to believe that you subscribe to the same idea unless you post something to contradict the viewpoint itself or throw out some sort of question asking for feedback on the statement.


Taekwondo was [basically] formed by the original nine kwans (of which Choi led one of them). Additionally, the World Taekwondo Federation was not formed until after Choi was exiled.

Contradict the viewpoint itself? You mean like that?

[dortiz]

Everybody deserves one post retraction. ; )

[Earl Weiss]

Regardless of your political roots in TKD. The man did a lot towards the organization and growth of TKD in it's infancy. Still, IMO the credit as founders of TKD should go to the Kwan founders/leaders who organized and taught the art rather than the politician who used his military position to strong arm them into getting his way.

.

Kwan Leaders never organized and taught a single art or could even agree on a name for the most part, until after TKD became popular and they then sought to capitalize on the popularity. Yes military influence was used, and how was that different that the political influence used by the WTF and Kukkiwon. I suggest you read "A Killing Art" which chronicles the kidanppings, pressures and bribes by the WTF. But, more importantly it was much more important than influence. Gneral Choi taught his system to top Martial Artists he recruited and dispatched for demos and as instructors. This is what lead to the spread of the art.

[Earl Weiss]

Imagine today if a military general who was second dan (many Japanese sources say first dan) in shotokan during a time of war and draft/ conscription used his position to pull your countries MA schools together under one umbrella, re-name it and send anyone who disagreed to nearly certain death on the front lines. Those who played ball with him were given very comfortable positions. How well would you like and respect this man? I've talked with GM's who were young, but there at the time and they had as much "respect" for the man as you likely would have.

.

It is expected the jealous Johnny come latelys would have little respect. You cannot compare todays world of MA with the 1950's or even the 1970's for that matter. Again with regard to those who played ball getting preferential treatment, the WTF / Kukkiwon did th same thing.

[Earl Weiss]

[quote=Kwan Jang;1206668]
No matter how Gen. Choi and his followers have twisted the recorded history, he was given an honorary 4th dan (as opposed to the legitimate rank of the original Kwan Jang Nims) for a reason. This honorary rank was also taken back because he tried to pretend it was real and demanded a higher one from the KJN of the CDK. This happened before his exile and while he still had considerable political power in South Korea and they ran newspaper stories from the time that can still be accessed and translated on the internet.

quote]

Except that those such as yourself always see fit to omit what happened after GM Son took out the infamous advertisement which also expelled GM Nam and GM Uhm from the CDK. Why don't you tell how the next thing that happened was GM Son was mysteriously gone, GM Uhm became the next CDK head, later I believe heading WTF and / or the Kukkiwon, and GM Nam remains a respected member. Gives a little insight into what CDK members thought of GM Son's advertisement and how much they supported it.

Have you read "A Killing Art"?

[chrispillertkd]

Imagine today if a military general who was second dan (many Japanese sources say first dan) in shotokan...

Interesting. What Japanese sources claim Gen. Choi had a first dan in Shotokan? I'd be very interested in seeing them.

I will point out that at the time Gen. Choi was apparently a second dan there were only 5 dans in karate.


during a time of war and draft/ conscription used his position to pull your countries MA schools together under one umbrella, re-name it and send anyone who disagreed to nearly certain death on the front lines. Those who played ball with him were given very comfortable positions. How well would you like and respect this man? I've talked with GM's who were young, but there at the time and they had as much "respect" for the man as you likely would have.

Who got sent to the front lines if they didn't play ball, specifically? Taekwon-Do wasn't named until 1955 and the Oh Do Kwan wasn't even founded until 1954, after the Korean War was over. Where was the front line in 1954 or 1955? By the time the ROK army was sent to Viet Nam Gen. Choi had been forced to retire and was in Malaysia serving a term as ambassador. At what time was he in a position to send anyone "to the front lines" if they didn't join up?

Thanks in advance.

Pax,

Chris

[Earl Weiss]

Who got sent to the front lines if they didn't play ball, specifically? Taekwon-Do wasn't named until 1955 and the Oh Do Kwan wasn't even founded until 1954, after the Korean War was over. Where was the front line in 1954 or 1955? By the time the ROK army was sent to Viet Nam Gen. Choi had been forced to retire and was in Malaysia serving a term as ambassador. At what time was he in a position to send anyone "to the front lines" if they didn't join up?

Thanks in advance.

Pax,

Chris

Oh Mr. Spiller, you are just trying to muddy things with the facts;)

[msmitht]

Did he actually use the word "Stupider"? It would be correct to say "More Stupid"

[Spookey]

Except that those such as yourself always see fit to omit what happened after GM Son took out the infamous advertisement which also expelled GM Nam and GM Uhm from the CDK. Why don't you tell how the next thing that happened was GM Son was mysteriously gone, GM Uhm became the next CDK head, later I believe heading WTF and / or the Kukkiwon, and GM Nam remains a respected member. Gives a little insight into what CDK members thought of GM Son's advertisement and how much they supported it.

Have you read "A Killing Art"?

Sir, I am proud to say the Uhm Won Kyu, Kwan Jang is the current President of the Kukkiwon! However, to this day the political turmoil continues!

Furthermore, I wish each of you to know that General Choi chose exile to continue position himself geographically to continue spreading Taekwondo without the corrupt governments influence. So much that attempts were made on his life, and not by the communist DPRK, but rather by the regime of Park Chung-Hee.

Finally, I add that General Choi's nemesis, Park Chung Hee (President of Republic of Korea, 1961-1979) was the one "sending people to the front lines" if they continued to follow Choi Hong Hi. Thus the induction of Kukkiwon and the WTF.

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[Spookey]

Below is a link to the letter Mr. Weiss referenced.

Written by Sun Duk Sung, and published in Seoul Shinmoon (newspaper) 16-June-1959.

http://www.hellers.ws/ma/59-06-15-son-letter.shtml

Furthermore, I provide reference to this quote from the official Kukkiwon page.

"2004 Mar. 2 Dr. Uhm, Woon Kyu was elected as the President of Kukkiwon"

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/introduce/introduce03.jsp?div=03

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[goingd]

Well I'll be! I did use the word (or lack of) "stupider"! Well, my spell check aint bashin me! :ultracool

There is certainly a thing or two I did not know about Choi Hong Hi before reading a number of these posts. Though I'll say again, it is AMAZING some of the assumptions people make on this forum. Regardless, I have better things to do than to care about what negative things people here want to think and state about my posts.

I love information. I love history. I love talking with people like you (most of you XP) who have so much to share.

Now please, ever so amusingly continue your discussions on the late Grand Master Choi.

[chrispillertkd]

Oh Mr. Spiller, you are just trying to muddy things with the facts;)

My apologies, sir. I forgot this was the internet! :D

Pax,

Chris

[tkd1964]

No matter how Gen. Choi and his followers have twisted the recorded history, he was given an honorary 4th dan (as opposed to the legitimate rank of the original Kwan Jang Nims) for a reason. This honorary rank was also taken back because he tried to pretend it was real and demanded a higher one from the KJN of the CDK. This happened before his exile and while he still had considerable political power in South Korea and they ran newspaper stories from the time that can still be accessed and translated on the internet.

.

If you remember, in 1959, Gen. Choi traveled the Far east with nineteen of his top Black belts. GM Son wanted to be part of this Historic event yet gen. Choi refused saying that it was a Military team and he (GM Son) was not in the Military. This did not sit well with GM. Son.
Gen. Choi was the Honorary Kwang Jang because, as a Military person, he could not control a civilian gym. Plus, he was not CDK even thou what they were teaching was Tang Soo Do.
I would also point out that Gen. Choi was head of his own Kwan, the Oh do Kwan, so if he wanted to be 20th dan, he could have made himself one. GM Son was not Gen. Choi's senior, he only ran the civilian Gym. GM. Son was removed and GM Um was put in place to head the Gym.

[miguksaram]

Gen. Choi was the Honorary Kwang Jang because, as a Military person, he could not control a civilian gym.

I believe he was granted an honorary 4th dan in order to help spread TKD, more specificly Chungdokwan within the military. This came as a request from GM Nam Tae-hi. At that time Choi did not have an official black belt in any art.


Plus, he was not CDK even thou what they were teaching was Tang Soo Do.
True, prior to this I believe his only experience was in Shotokan where he only achieved a brown belt level.


I would also point out that Gen. Choi was head of his own Kwan, the Oh do Kwan, so if he wanted to be 20th dan, he could have made himself one. GM Son was not Gen. Choi's senior, he only ran the civilian Gym. GM. Son was removed and GM Um was put in place to head the Gym.

He formed his own Kwan but his members were mostly CDK people. GM Nam Tae-hi was the official black belt of the group and Gen Choi had the military power. This is why GM Nam asked to have Gen. Choi promoted to an honorary 4th dan. In terms of martial arts, GM Son was Choi's senior when it came to CDK. In fact, outside of ODK, you do not see Choi's name on any roster of black belts from other Kwans. All Choi did was change a name of the CDK to ODK.

[Earl Weiss]

All Choi did was change a name of the CDK to ODK.

You lost me there. CDK remained CDK and Oh Do Kwan which had many CDK memebers had others as well. The patterns were changed as were the specifications for stances and many techniques.

In some instances such as Jhoon Rhee followers, Old line ATA HU Lee followers, some He Il Cho followers, you can tell they do the Chang Hon style with a CDK Flavor, but it is definitely not CDK.

[miguksaram]

You lost me there. CDK remained CDK and Oh Do Kwan which had many CDK memebers had others as well. The patterns were changed as were the specifications for stances and many techniques.

In some instances such as Jhoon Rhee followers, Old line ATA HU Lee followers, some He Il Cho followers, you can tell they do the Chang Hon style with a CDK Flavor, but it is definitely not CDK.
At what point did he change the forms? Once he formed his own kwan did he do his own forms as well?

[Earl Weiss]

At what point did he change the forms? Once he formed his own kwan did he do his own forms as well?

I would have to review various sources but during conversations with GM Nam, this is how the new system called TKD was developed thru the Oh Do Kwan. General Choi would map out the forms, and as Nam said, he was the "Actor" and General Choi was the director. Once mapped out Nam would teach them to the troops.

Somewhere in the books there is a reference to what forms were developed first etc. Suffice it to say that the initial forms were implimeneted quickly. (I seem to recall four were done initialy with 16 more to follow in short order and then the final 4 after 1965.) Understandable considering what I would percieve as a desire to remove much of the Japanese influence. The first book with the new system was published in 1959 (In Korean, never seen it)

[Spookey]

Dear All,

I question you this...Gichin Funokoshi held rank in what art? Chotoku Kyan held rank in what art? Did they not found their own systems?

Below is a link to the first English text of Taekwondo, it was first released in Korean (including Chang Heon Hyung through Cho-Dan!) in 1959!

http://www.amazon.com/Taekwon-do-self-defence-Hong-Hi-Choi/dp/B0006BXKLE/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249596615&sr=8-8

General Choi was a ground breaker. All the men of their generation where phenominal artists, creators, and proliferators! General Choi was simply in a better position than many, but that only lasted for a time.

Then after the coup that placed Park, Chung Hee in power Choi no longer had the backing of an entire nation. However, from a meger home in Canada, he did quite well proliferating Chang Heon Taekwondo...how many million strong?

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[Earl Weiss]

Dear All,


Below is a link to the first English text of Taekwondo, it was first released in Korean (including Chang Heon Hyung through Cho-Dan!) in 1959!

http://www.amazon.com/Taekwon-do-self-defence-Hong-Hi-Choi/dp/B0006BXKLE/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249596615&sr=8-8
Spookey

I have numerous copies of the English edition. A couple signed by Gneral Choi. Was not sure it was an exact translation of the 1959 text.

[miguksaram]

Understandable considering what I would percieve as a desire to remove much of the Japanese influence. The first book with the new system was published in 1959 (In Korean, never seen it)

I always get a kick out of these statements here. "Removing the Japanese influence". When all the main Kwan leaders were taught Japanese karate what other influence would they have had to make their forms? No matter what pattern they put together on their own the movements would still be based in Japanese karate, at least in the beginning stages of both KKW and ITF TKD.

[Spookey]

I always get a kick out of these statements here. "Removing the Japanese influence".

Is that perhaps the part that Okinawa and China left out? You know, the "Japanese Arts" which came from Okinawa to the school system of Japan. I mean dont forget how Japan got the Te~!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[dancingalone]

Is that perhaps the part that Okinawa and China left out? You know, the "Japanese Arts" which came from Okinawa to the school system of Japan. I mean dont forget how Japan got the Te~!

TAEKWON!
Spookey



Yeah, but let's not ignore the fact that by the time Gigo Funakoshi and Masatoshi Nakayama left their mark on Shotokan karate, it had changed significantly from the karate Gichin Funakoshi learned and taught. You can see the evolution occur by comparing the photos of Gichin Funakoshi in practice to any typical JKA text. The stances became much lower and the forward lean on punches had largely disappeared. More kicks were added, hip twist and shoulder turn became pronounced, and much of the grappling bunkai disappeared in favor of sweeps and strong punches.

That's the karate TKD derived from rather than the Okinwan version. And whether one views this positively or negatively is open to interpretation, but let's be aware of the distinction since it is an important one.

[Spookey]

Sir,

I disagree...the Okinawan arts do use short stances that are not as deep. Much like an L-stance or a Walking Stance. This is one of the major modifications between "Japanese" Karate and Korean Taekwondo!

Shorter, upright stances increasing mobility and allow for use of the front leg. Also, the hip twist is a huge part of Shimabukuro - Seibukan through Chotoku Kyan. I will hardly agree that hip twist was an addition from Japan.

I actually listed for hours as Shimabukura explained about the stances of Okinawan Kara-Te being lengthened, deepend, and the motions exaggerated, after reaching Japan. He is head of Seibukan and 10th Dan JKA...I believe he would have a good take on the issues!

To me that seems to rival what you just posted, dont you think?

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[Earl Weiss]

I always get a kick out of these statements here. "Removing the Japanese influence". When all the main Kwan leaders were taught Japanese karate what other influence would they have had to make their forms? No matter what pattern they put together on their own the movements would still be based in Japanese karate, at least in the beginning stages of both KKW and ITF TKD.


Probably almost as much as I get a kick out of the above statements which seem to forget that the Japanese systems derived from Okinawa. General Choi specificaly lists the Okinawan Shorin and Shorei systems, and FWIW a common theory is that as Funakoshi lists in his text that Shorin was the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin (there is a contrary theory) which of curse was from China. So, limting the reference or roots to Japan while correct, is unneccessarily limited.

[dancingalone]

Sir,

I disagree...the Okinawan arts do use short stances that are not as deep. Much like an L-stance or a Walking Stance. This is one of the major modifications between "Japanese" Karate and Korean Taekwondo!

Shorter, upright stances increasing mobility and allow for use of the front leg. Also, the hip twist is a huge part of Shimabukuro - Seibukan through Chotoku Kyan. I will hardly agree that hip twist was an addition from Japan.

I actually listed for hours as Shimabukura explained about the stances of Okinawan Kara-Te being lengthened, deepend, and the motions exaggerated, after reaching Japan. He is head of Seibukan and 10th Dan JKA...I believe he would have a good take on the issues!

To me that seems to rival what you just posted, dont you think?

TAEKWON!
Spookey

Of course Okinawan styles use more upright stances than does Shotokan. No one will dispute that.

But you want to make the connection between Okinawan karate and TKD when there is no such link historically. The "Korean karate" phase of TKD certainly owed far more to Shotokan karate both historically and technically than any imaginary kinship to shorin-ryu. Later as TKD evolved into various directions under the ITF and then the KKW, its technique increasingly emphasized kicking and of course kicking is more easily done from a high stance.

As for the Seibukan comment on hip twist, I'll defer to you there not being a Seibukan stylist myself (are you one?), but having some experience with several strains of shorin-ryu such as matsubayashi and kobayashi, neither emphasize hip twist to any great degree. They use a overall body snap instead. There are ample shorin-ryu Youtube videos if you want to compare. Just view some of the kata.

And I've certainly never heard that TKD derived from Seibukan shorin-ryu. Where do you make this linkage? Which of the Kwan founders studied Seibukan? Is it merely because you observe that both Okinawan karate and TKD use higher stances than Japanese karate? Just because two things happen to display some of the same general characteristics doesn't mean they have to fall from the same tree.

[dancingalone]

Probably almost as much as I get a kick out of the above statements which seem to forget that the Japanese systems derived from Okinawa. General Choi specificaly lists the Okinawan Shorin and Shorei systems, and FWIW a common theory is that as Funakoshi lists in his text that Shorin was the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin (there is a contrary theory) which of curse was from China. So, limting the reference or roots to Japan while correct, is unneccessarily limited.

Bunkai is key to Okinawan karate. It's undeniable that most bunkai study had disappeared from the various expressions of Japanese karate during the cultural translation. As I mentioned above, the photos of Gichin Funakoshi practicing show a distinctly different form than even that of the early JKA greats like Nakayama or Enoeda or Kanazawa.

There's a difference, just as there is a difference from Chinese martial arts and Okinawan karate although the latter was surely influenced by the former.

[troubleenuf]

So let me get this right... he was promoted to 4th Dan without any real training experience in TKD.... then he began his own kwan.... and eventually promoted himself to whatever rank he desired? Sound familiar? Something like many guys are doing now except they get nailed for doing it. But it was/is ok for him to do the same why?



I believe he was granted an honorary 4th dan in order to help spread TKD, more specificly Chungdokwan within the military. This came as a request from GM Nam Tae-hi. At that time Choi did not have an official black belt in any art.


True, prior to this I believe his only experience was in Shotokan where he only achieved a brown belt level.



He formed his own Kwan but his members were mostly CDK people. GM Nam Tae-hi was the official black belt of the group and Gen Choi had the military power. This is why GM Nam asked to have Gen. Choi promoted to an honorary 4th dan. In terms of martial arts, GM Son was Choi's senior when it came to CDK. In fact, outside of ODK, you do not see Choi's name on any roster of black belts from other Kwans. All Choi did was change a name of the CDK to ODK.

[Spookey]

But you want to make the connection between Okinawan karate and TKD when there is no such link historically.

Won Kuk Lee - Chung Do Kwan, student of
Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawan Shuri-te / Naha-te)

Byung Jick Ro - Song Moo Kwan,
student of Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawan)

Chun Sang Sup - Ji Do Kwan,
student of Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawa), close friend of Byung In Yoon

Byung In Yoon - Chang Moo Kwan,
student of Kanken Toyama (Okinawan Shuri-te)


Yeah, but let's not ignore the fact that by the time Gigo Funakoshi and Masatoshi Nakayama left their mark on Shotokan karate, it had changed significantly from the karate Gichin Funakoshi learned and taught.

I agree with this comment...also, I add the relevance that the kwan founders were students of Gichin Funakoshi. The significant change you reference in your above quote is the "Japanese Influence" that Miguksaram referenced that led me to discuss the Okinawan influence on Taekwondo, which historically does exist as noted above!

Taekwon!
Spookey

(P.S. The body snap is what I was speaking of...the center core of the body (hips and waste). is that not where the snap initiates?

[dancingalone]

Won Kuk Lee - Chung Do Kwan, student of
Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawan Shuri-te / Naha-te)

Byung Jick Ro - Song Moo Kwan,
student of Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawan)

Chun Sang Sup - Ji Do Kwan,
student of Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawa), close friend of Byung In Yoon

Byung In Yoon - Chang Moo Kwan,
student of Kanken Toyama (Okinawan Shuri-te)


I'm speculating any karate that these gentlemen picked up comes filtered through the Japanese lens. We know from the various discussions and research made both karate/tkd historians the Kwan curricula taught strongly resembled Japanese Shotokan karate: little if any bunkai and a focus on strong, forceful technique. To me, the proof is in the pudding. The evidence argues that any connection to Shuri-te is a tenuous one from history rather than one of actual technical similarity.

I'm also curious if there are records that show if any of these men actually did train with Gichin Funakoshi or not. It was my understanding that no Japanese training records survive for any them, the sole exception would be Byung In Yoon who was named a shihan by Kanken Toyama. And he was already a master of kwon bup/chuan fa before joining Toyama's Shudokan school.



I agree with this comment...also, I add the relevance that the kwan founders were students of Gichin Funakoshi. The significant change you reference in your above quote is the "Japanese Influence" that Miguksaram referenced that led me to discuss the Okinawan influence on Taekwondo, which historically does exist as noted above!


I'm not sure the direct link to Funakoshi is there for any of the Kwan heads. Besides, you can look at all Japanese students that we KNOW Funakoshi produced. With the notable exception of possibly Egami, all the other masters that studied with Funakoshi display the hallmarks of good shotokan technique, deep stances in kata with full hip twists and shoulder turns. I'd be hard pressed to believe any CURRENT favor to high stances in taekwondo stems from a link to Gichin Funakoshi. More likely, it's because one can kick much easier from a higher stance, and so the higher stance was adopted.



(P.S. The body snap is what I was speaking of...the center core of the body (hips and waste). is that not where the snap initiates?

Yes and no. That's a longer technical discussion than I care to delve into right now, but suffice it to say if you see a huge emphasis on hip twist in a karate-ka, you can safely assume he practices something that has been influenced by 'modern' technique ala the JKA style. There is obviously some hip vibration in shorin-ryu, but it's really a a much more subtle motion than 'twist back, twist forward'.

[Spookey]

Interesting, I will continue to research and will follow up once more suitable information becomes available.

(Please dont take me as argumentative, I much like yourself I assume dont accept the generic answer for most things, and simply enjoy looking for the holes and answers!)

Good debate!
TAEKWON!
Spookey

[tkd1964]

[quote=miguksaram;1207387]I believe he was granted an honorary 4th dan in order to help spread TKD, more specificly Chungdokwan within the military. This came as a request from GM Nam Tae-hi. At that time Choi did not have an official black belt in any art.


True, prior to this I believe his only experience was in Shotokan where he only achieved a brown belt level.

Gen. Choi had a second degree from studying in Japan. As a General, he did not teach the soldiers, that was left to the other officers and NCO's. It wasn't until he was an Ambassador to Malaysia that he started teaching TKD himself. When he returned to Korea, he taught his instructors at his House.

[Earl Weiss]

[quote=miguksaram;1207387]IGen. Choi had a second degree from studying in Japan. As a General, he did not teach the soldiers, that was left to the other officers and NCO's. It wasn't until he was an Ambassador to Malaysia that he started teaching TKD himself. When he returned to Korea, he taught his instructors at his House.

To avoid confusion it should be noted that he did not teach the solders directly. Per my converstions with GM Nam, this just was not done. Have a Gneral Teach the enlisted men. Instead he spent time teaching the curriculum / reviewing technique with officers such as Nam who taught the enlistem men.

[Earl Weiss]

So let me get this right... he was promoted to 4th Dan without any real training experience in TKD.... then he began his own kwan.... and eventually promoted himself to whatever rank he desired? Sound familiar? Something like many guys are doing now except they get nailed for doing it. But it was/is ok for him to do the same why?

A Valid question. Yet you have to review certain things in historical context.

1. He was promoted without any real training in TKD.
Well, TKD did not exist until he named it so it would have been impossible for him to have trained in it. It is like saying Funakoshi or Kano rec'd a certain rank in Shotokan or Judo without training in it. The situation was not unlike other Ryo or Kwan founders. Few had reached high ranks (3 -4 degree) in other systems before founding their systems. I do not know, but it would be interesting to know Lee won Kuk's HSotokan rank before founding the CDK, or for that matter Funakoshi;s before founding Shotokan.

2. Major difference between now and then. Now people prpomote themselves and start gyms or systems often recruiting people who know little. General Choi recruited top martial artists not only from within Korea but outside as well and convinced them to follow him. The convincing took many forms. However, these people, martial Art luminaries of their day elected to follow him and recognize him as the developerand head of this new system. Of course, we all know that the political winds changed so many were convinced to leave him as well.

[Twin Fist]

1. He was promoted without any real training in TKD.
Well, TKD did not exist until he named it


horse hockey

those guys were practicing something, and it had a name, SHOTOKAN

re-naming it TKD didnt change what it was

if ANYTHING, all Choi did was engage in copyright infringment

your Choi worship has gone a little too far.

[chrispillertkd]

horse hockey

those guys were practicing something, and it had a name, SHOTOKAN

re-naming it TKD didnt change what it was

If you'll reread Master Weis' post you'll see that he wasn't saying the people involved, including Gen. Choi, weren't training in anything. He said, rather, that Taekwon-Do didn't exist until Gen. Choi named it. I would agree that changing the name of Shotokan didn't change it to Taekwon-Do. Developing the new patterns, on the other hand, is more than renaming something. As did Gen. Choi's development of a specific philosophical basis for his martial art.


if ANYTHING, all Choi did was engage in copyright infringment

Interesting. Who had copyright on Shotokan material? I'd like to know.

I do know that Funakoshi didn't even like the idea of naming his style but basically his senior students wanted to call what he was teaching them something specific.


your Choi worship has gone a little too far.

I find Master Weiss to be rather objective in his references to Gen. Choi, more so than some ITF people and certainly more so than some non-ITF people.

On the other hand, your little rant here certainly leaves the bounds of common courtesy.

Pax,

Chris

[Twin Fist]

Chris,
Earl, and thats all he is, EARL, spent the better part of 6 pages telling me I was doing a kata wrong, and that I should tell my instructor they were wrong.

fat chance I am gonna call EARL a master of anything, and he hasnt earned any courtesy from me. Plus, i have little patience for people that willingly buy into lies and falsehoods.

that aiside, Choi didnt invent new patterns, new anything. not untill AFTER everyone threw him out and wanted nothing to do with him.

he came up with a new name for something old, and pretended it was something new

and i dont mean LITERAL copyright infringment, but it may as well be.

[Twin Fist]

that Taekwon-Do didn't exist until Gen. Choi named it.

it did exist, it did have a name.

[troubleenuf]

From what I have read so far it sounded more like the head guys found him and reading between the lines it seems like they at first thought they could put him up front and pull the strings and still get what they wanted. Until he figured out that they had given him too much rope and he hung them with it.
Or at least tried to.


2. Major difference between now and then. Now people prpomote themselves and start gyms or systems often recruiting people who know little. General Choi recruited top martial artists not only from within Korea but outside as well and convinced them to follow him. The convincing took many forms. However, these people, martial Art luminaries of their day elected to follow him and recognize him as the developerand head of this new system. Of course, we all know that the political winds changed so many were convinced to leave him as well.[/QUOTE]

[Spookey]

Twin Fist,

Let us debate this as gentlemen, just you and I...


Choi didnt invent new patterns, new anything. not untill AFTER everyone threw him out and wanted nothing to do with him.

1959 - First Text of Taekwondo

1965 - First English Text of Taekwondo (w/ hyung through 1st Dan)

1966 - International Taekwondo Foundation (HQ - Seoul Korea)
(including federations in Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, West Germany, the United States, Turkey, Italy, Arab Republic of Egypt and Korea.)

1972 - General Choi left Korea for Toronto, Canada

Per the recorded time line, General Choi presented unique, written, historical proof of not only the hyung, but plenty of "new anything" prior to when "they", as you worded it "threw him out"!

Fact based, courteous, rebuttal please!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

[Twin Fist]

1959 - First Text of Taekwondo

giving a new name to something old isnt new. it isnt creating anything, it is quite literally, theft. I have spoken to 1st gen students of the 1st gen kwan BB's. what was being taught was Shotokan, nothing more.




1965 - First English Text of Taekwondo (w/ hyung through 1st Dan)

yeah, with katas that were taken directly from shotokan, move for move.



1966 - International Taekwondo Foundation (HQ - Seoul Korea)
(including federations in Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, West Germany, the United States, Turkey, Italy, Arab Republic of Egypt and Korea.)

still teaching something old with a new name.


1972 - General Choi left Korea for Toronto, Canada

which is right around the time that TKD started ebing something other than repackeged shotokan

[/quote]

Spookey, the simple fact is that TKD for the first 20 years wasnt anything new, or remotely korean in any way shape or form

[chrispillertkd]

Chris,
Earl, and thats all he is, EARL, spent the better part of 6 pages telling me I was doing a kata wrong, and that I should tell my instructor they were wrong.

fat chance I am gonna call EARL a master of anything, and he hasnt earned any courtesy from me. Plus, i have little patience for people that willingly buy into lies and falsehoods.

That is your choice. No where in my post did I say anything about how you should address anyone. I addressed Master Weiss as I did because he's an VIII dan. You can call anyone anything you wish, just like you can act however you wish. We all make choices about how we present ourselves to others and how we practice the tenet of courtesy.


that aiside, Choi didnt invent new patterns, new anything. not untill AFTER everyone threw him out and wanted nothing to do with him.

Interesting. Who threw him out of what? Are you still talking about GM Son "expelling" him from the Chung Do Kwan? That's been pretty conclusively addressed. GM Son's letter didn't carry much weight regarding the other people he expelled, so why it should mean anything in regards to Gen. Choi is beyond me. But I'd be more than willing to listen to your reasoning, as long as you explain why you can ignore the expulsions of Hyun Jong Myun, Uhm Woon Kyu and Nam Tae Hi.

In any event, Gen. Choi was certainly developing his new patterns by then, even if all 24 weren't finished. You also seemed to simply ignore my previous point about the systemtizing of an underlying philosophy for Taekwon-Do, which would differentiate it from Shotokan.


he came up with a new name for something old, and pretended it was something new

No one denies Gen. Choi's training in Shotokan. Or Won Kuk Lee's. Or Byung In Yoon's training in Shudokan. Or ... well you get the picture, I think. But you might as well say the otehr Kwan heads were practicing Shotokan, too, or that there's no difference between what their Kwans do now and what Funakoshi was doing then. You simply ignore the fact that the style was already changing. You might disagree on when it changed into something that was no longer Shotokan, of course, but you can't deny that it at least had started to change. Well, I mean, you can deny that but it would be odd.


and i dont mean LITERAL copyright infringment, but it may as well be.

May as well be? Why is that? Especially in light of the fact that Funakoshi didn't even want to name his style (a fact you simply ignored).

Pax,

Chris

[Twin Fist]

Chris,
when the term TKD was coined, they were teaching pure shotokan. I wish i didnt know the real history, I used to respect the art a lot more before i learned there was nothing NOT shotokan in it till the mid to late 60's

[granfire]

Chris,
when the term TKD was coined, they were teaching pure shotokan. I wish i didnt know the real history, I used to respect the art a lot more before i learned there was nothing NOT shotokan in it till the mid to late 60's

LOL, I picked that up, first time out...Tuttle's Martial Arts, I was lucky to find both TKD and Karate in the local library. made it r3eally easy, actually, because it stripped about 4000 years of patina off right there (k, 2000 ;) )

[chrispillertkd]

Chris,
when the term TKD was coined, they were teaching pure shotokan. I wish i didnt know the real history, I used to respect the art a lot more before i learned there was nothing NOT shotokan in it till the mid to late 60's

Again, you're simply ignoring pretty much everything I (and others) have said about the subject. You're free to do that, of course, but it makes discussing things a bit difficult.

Pax,

Chris

[Earl Weiss]

horse hockey

those guys were practicing something, and it had a name, SHOTOKAN

re-naming it TKD didnt change what it was

if ANYTHING, all Choi did was engage in copyright infringment

your Choi worship has gone a little too far.

Actulay your quote agrees with my point. We agree, he trained in Shotokan and or what the people learning Shotokan trained in - Shorin and Shorei.

If you believe he only engaged in "copyright infringement", do you also believe:
The Shotokan creator infinged on any "copyrights" of the Shorin & Shorei systems?
Do you believe it is "copyright infringement" when you also cite the source and state exactly what the reference is?

Please answer the above, and I will respond to the worship comment.

[Earl Weiss]

Chris,
Earl, and thats all he is, EARL, spent the better part of 6 pages telling me I was doing a kata wrong, and that I should tell my instructor they were wrong.

.

If I said "Wrong" then I apologize as this is a relative term. It is quite posssible that due to the nature of this type of communication I was not as diplomatic as i should have been.

If you perform as your instructor wishes, then it is not wrong.

I do not believe I ever said that you should TELL your instructor he was wrong. I did however reccomend that you ASK a question.

Since I have a mindset, experience and instructors who believed asking respectful questions was a good thing, I could not anticipate how my comment would be recieved by others who apparently do not share the mindset or experience. (Yes, I even asked General Choi about what I percieved to be an error in his book, as did others and rec'd confirmation from him that in some cases these things were errors. ) Having a good relationship with many old school practitioners, particularly those who trained with Han Cha Kyo, I can certainly appreciate that there are those out there who did / do not question what there instructor says.

I even got a response from He Il Cho's HQ, (I think it was signed off by Jasmin Cho) but it did not really address the issue. A follow up query trying to hone in on the issue went un answered.

FWIW students ask me stuff all the time. Sometimes I mess up, other times don't. I tink every instructor knows that for whatever reason once in a while smething comes out of their mouth that they did not mean to say. Often because they are thinking 2 or 3 items ahead. I feel a tremendous responsibility to "Teach correctly" because if i make a mistake for me it is only one person. But if i teach a mistake, it can be mutliplied many times.

So, I publicly apologize to Mr. Fist, for any comments percieved to be overly or unduly critical in response to his tread on the pattern and his video performance. I alos extend to him and his significnt other a dinner invite if they are ever near Chicago. As is my practice anyone can stop in and train and all I ask for visitors in return is that they teach a 15-20 minute segment.

[chrispillertkd]

1965 - First English Text of Taekwondo (w/ hyung through 1st Dan)

I do want to point out that the 1965 textbook already contains 20 of Gen. Choi's new hyungs, which cover more than those required for first dan. It also points out that even at this point Gen. Choi's system was quite a bit different from Shotokan, as opposed to TF's comment in your original post that it was by the early 70s.


Per the recorded time line, General Choi presented unique, written, historical proof of not only the hyung, but plenty of "new anything" prior to when "they", as you worded it "threw him out"!

I'm still very interested in who threw the General out of what. There were certainly political wranglings even as early as the mid-1950s in the movement to unify the Kwans, but I'm still not sure what Twinfist is referring to when he says "they threw [Gen. Choi] out." I'd be very interested in hearing specifically what he means especially if he means an organization vs the martial art of Taekwon-Do itself or, since he sees no difference between TKD and Shotokan, if he means Gen. Choi was thrown out of Shotokan. (If this is the case, I really don't see the problem since he was well on his way to establishing his own system pretty early on.)

Pax,

Chris

[Earl Weiss]

Chris,
Earl, and thats all he is, EARL, spent the better part of 6 pages telling me I was doing a kata wrong, and that I should tell my instructor they were wrong.

.

For those not familiar with Twin Fist reference please see

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74698

About of about 90 posts, about 15 were from me. Feel free to judge my courtesy or lack thereof.

[miguksaram]

Is that perhaps the part that Okinawa and China left out? You know, the "Japanese Arts" which came from Okinawa to the school system of Japan. I mean dont forget how Japan got the Te~!

TAEKWON!
Spookey



But what was taught in Japan is not the same as it was in Okinawa. By the time they started learning it, the curriculum changed significantly.

[miguksaram]

Probably almost as much as I get a kick out of the above statements which seem to forget that the Japanese systems derived from Okinawa. General Choi specificaly lists the Okinawan Shorin and Shorei systems, and FWIW a common theory is that as Funakoshi lists in his text that Shorin was the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin (there is a contrary theory) which of curse was from China. So, limting the reference or roots to Japan while correct, is unneccessarily limited.

As I mentioned already, what was taught in Japan was different than what was learned in Okinawa. Funakoshi changed the system in order to teach to the Japanese. Choi can list Shorin and Shorei, but he learned Shotokan which began to shift away from its Okinawan roots.

It is Shorin's kanji which links it to Shaolin. The Kanji can be also be pronounced Small Forest School, which is the kanji for the Shaolin.

[miguksaram]

[quote=tkd1964;1208228]
Originally Posted by miguksaram http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1207387#post1207387)
IGen. Choi had a second degree from studying in Japan. As a General, he did not teach the soldiers, that was left to the other officers and NCO's. It wasn't until he was an Ambassador to Malaysia that he started teaching TKD himself. When he returned to Korea, he taught his instructors at his House.


To avoid more confusion, I didn't right that.:D

[miguksaram]

A Valid question. Yet you have to review certain things in historical context.

1. He was promoted without any real training in TKD.
Well, TKD did not exist until he named it so it would have been impossible for him to have trained in it. It is like saying Funakoshi or Kano rec'd a certain rank in Shotokan or Judo without training in it. The situation was not unlike other Ryo or Kwan founders. Few had reached high ranks (3 -4 degree) in other systems before founding their systems. I do not know, but it would be interesting to know Lee won Kuk's HSotokan rank before founding the CDK, or for that matter Funakoshi;s before founding Shotokan.

To be more specific in my original statement, Gen. Choi was promoted to an honorary 4th dan in Chungdokwan by GM Son. GM Son revoked this appointment. Now there is controversy about revoking that promotion, but regardless if with was officially revoked or not, it was still honorary. As for the ranks of others, I believe, Funakoshi was a 5th dan and GM Lee, Won-kuk was 3rd dan in Shotokan.

[dancingalone]

Actulay your quote agrees with my point. We agree, he trained in Shotokan and or what the people learning Shotokan trained in - Shorin and Shorei.

By the time, the "Shotokan" name came in use, I would argue that much of the Okinawan influence had been stripped away from Funakoshi's teachings. Moreover, although he discusses "Shorei" in his books, it's pretty clear that Gichin Funakoshi practiced very little of it, given the relative dearth of Naha forms he taught. Given that he seemed to be somewhat of a form collector, the evidence showing probably that bulk of what he knew came from Shuri-te.

I won't repeat what I said above in detail, but Koreans that trained in karate in Japan likely learned Shotokan, a different animal entirely than Shuri-te/shorin-ryu although the link lineage-wise is there.



No one denies Gen. Choi's training in Shotokan. Or Won Kuk Lee's. Or Byung In Yoon's training in Shudokan. Or ... well you get the picture, I think. But you might as well say the otehr Kwan heads were practicing Shotokan, too, or that there's no difference between what their Kwans do now and what Funakoshi was doing then. You simply ignore the fact that the style was already changing. You might disagree on when it changed into something that was no longer Shotokan, of course, but you can't deny that it at least had started to change. Well, I mean, you can deny that but it would be odd.


My opinion is that the Korean karate phase of TKD differed very slightly from the Shotokan karate taught at the time. I do agree that General Choi changed the Japanese system he learned sufficiently, especially by the eighties, that it really should be regarded as a distinct system at this point. Still, this evolution was a gradual process and the ITF forms still owe a huge amount to the Japanese Heian forms. Perhaps it would be a good idea for the ITF to embark on their own Korean hyung creation project?

[Twin Fist]

So, I publicly apologize to Mr. Fist, for any comments percieved to be overly or unduly critical in response to his tread on the pattern and his video performance. I alos extend to him and his significnt other a dinner invite if they are ever near Chicago. As is my practice anyone can stop in and train and all I ask for visitors in return is that they teach a 15-20 minute segment.


eh, it's all good, no blood no foul. But thanks Mr Weiss

[Twin Fist]

I do agree that General Choi changed the Japanese system he learned sufficiently, especially by the eighties, that it really should be regarded as a distinct system at this point. Still, this evolution was a gradual process and the ITF forms still owe a huge amount to the Japanese Heian forms. Perhaps it would be a good idea for the ITF to embark on their own Korean hyung creation project?


i agree with this. But i would say that by the mid 70's, TKD was it's own beast, but not before then.

[dancingalone]

To be more specific in my original statement, Gen. Choi was promoted to an honorary 4th dan in Chungdokwan by GM Son. GM Son revoked this appointment. Now there is controversy about revoking that promotion, but regardless if with was officially revoked or not, it was still honorary. As for the ranks of others, I believe, Funakoshi was a 5th dan and GM Lee, Won-kuk was 3rd dan in Shotokan.

Gichin Funakoshi took a 5th dan rank when he began assigning dank ranks to his students. Later after the formation of the JKA, higher ranks than 5th dan began to be given. I have come across several accounts that mention Won Kuk Lee as a third or second dan in Shotokan karate, but none with a definitive date of certicate. This may or may not be one of those cases where one source states something as a fact, and multiple websites and essays follow suit. Certainly Won Kuk Lee learned Shotokan somewhere as early Chung Do Kwan mirrored Shotokan to a great degree.

[tkd1964]

[quote=tkd1964;1208228]

To avoid confusion it should be noted that he did not teach the solders directly. Per my converstions with GM Nam, this just was not done. Have a Gneral Teach the enlisted men. Instead he spent time teaching the curriculum / reviewing technique with officers such as Nam who taught the enlistem men.

Master Weiss, I was mistaken. He did teach Tang Soo when he first became an officer. It wasn't until he set up the 29th infantry that he picked GM Nam and GM Han to teach.

[tkd1964]

. , I have spoken to 1st gen students of the 1st gen kwan BB's. what was being taught was Shotokan, nothing more.








[/quote]
I would have to say you are part right. Aside from Gen. Choi, most of the Kwans were, or still are, teaching Karate(tang Soo). I believe GM Nam said he was reluctant to change his techniques to what Gen. Choi was teaching. There were some instructors who just learned the patterns but still used their Tang Soo techniques. That is not Taekwon-Do. You might as well have a Kung Fu artist do the patterns.:barf:

[dancingalone]

There were some instructors who just learned the patterns but still used their Tang Soo techniques. That is not Taekwon-Do.

It may not be Taekwon-Do but it is Tae Kwon Do.

[Earl Weiss]

I would have to say you are part right. Aside from Gen. Choi, most of the Kwans were, or still are, teaching Karate(tang Soo). I believe GM Nam said he was reluctant to change his techniques to what Gen. Choi was teaching. There were some instructors who just learned the patterns but still used their Tang Soo techniques. That is not Taekwon-Do. You might as well have a Kung Fu artist do the patterns.:barf:[/quote]

I never heard GM Nam express a reluctance. It is certainly clear that old habits were hard to change. Further, Gneral Choi explained that the need to develop and dispatch instructors outweighed the need for technical uniformity.

Whe I hosted GM Nam he occasionaly used Japanese names for techniques and that was in the late 1990s. Old Habit I guess.

[tkd1964]

It may not be Taekwon-Do but it is Tae Kwon Do.

This is the problem I have with Changing the name of the Korea Tae soo do Association back to the Korea Taekwon-do Association. Gen Choi should have just let them be and continue with developing Taekwon-Do.
JMO:soapbox:

[tkd1964]

I would have to say you are part right. Aside from Gen. Choi, most of the Kwans were, or still are, teaching Karate(tang Soo). I believe GM Nam said he was reluctant to change his techniques to what Gen. Choi was teaching. There were some instructors who just learned the patterns but still used their Tang Soo techniques. That is not Taekwon-Do. You might as well have a Kung Fu artist do the patterns.:barf:

I never heard GM Nam express a reluctance. It is certainly clear that old habits were hard to change. Further, Gneral Choi explained that the need to develop and dispatch instructors outweighed the need for technical uniformity.

Whe I hosted GM Nam he occasionaly used Japanese names for techniques and that was in the late 1990s. Old Habit I guess.[/quote]

I'm sorry, this was from Gen. Choi's biography,not from GM Nam. Here is the quote; " As Taekwon-do spread fast even to the civilian front, a textbook of Taekwon-do was needed to support it. Therefore in 1959 we hurriedly published a manual of taekwon-do in Korean. major Tae-hee nam, who assisted me, was insistent on moves taken from karate at the time, so i had to make him compromise on his stubbornness,saying that there was another way of doing it."

Now this may have been only about the book, Idon't know. Maybe, as you said, old habits.