I posted this at another kenpo forum as well....

I have seen in the American Kenpo salutation, at the end, a section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands.

Just curious, if American Kenpo has no relationship to Mitose or Kosho-ryu, why is this part of American Kenpo?

It is found in no other system of martial arts, only Mitose’s Kenpo, and later American Kenpo, Tracy’s etc..

Sanxiawuyi
:confused:

The Kenpo Exchange (http://www.freewebz.com/kenpoexchange/)

I was'nt aware that American kenpo's salutation was so different from other "Chinese" influenced arts. That linage is where I believe we get our full salute from. Not from the Kosho-Ryu . At the risk of starting a blizzard. I believe American kenpo's roots are invariably connected to Mr.Mitose, and to that of the aforementioned Kosho-Ryu systems. I say this because of all the historical data that bears this out. The art in Mr.Chow's hands grew, and changed. Just as it did in Mr.Parker's hands, and as it does in the hands of his students. Does this sound somewhat correct to some of the "seniors" out there? :asian:

The American kenpo salutation is different from other "Chinese" influenced arts.

The beginning is very similar to Southern Chinese systems, i.e. Hung Gar Gong Fu, Choy Lay Fut, etc.. but the part I mentioned (the end section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands) isn’t in any Chinese systems, Northern or Southern.

Sanxiawuyi

The Kenpo Exchange (http://www.freewebz.com/kenpoexchange/)

We the warrior and the scholar go forth to fight, together we shall take back our country.

I am friendly and unarmed.
I hide my secret.
I pray for forgiveness if I need to use it.

then unsaid (as two claws go around to close, palm then fingertips) there is no meaningless motion.

The salutation is a celebration of the old and the new. The old being the tradidional kungfu style opening and the new being the part you are looking for an explanation for. I would suggest a look at SGM Parkers devout religous beliefs as being a part of it and also his way of making obvious the departure from the traditional martial arts world.

Just a few ideas. I wish he were around to ask him because these are on my list of proverbial 'why's'...

Another good question to ask would be how did Parker pick up the salutation before his and Mitose's timelines crossed, OR, was it the other way around as many would like you to belive?

It has always been my understanding that this salutation was used and developed by Parker during his BYU days.



Peace,
Sandor

Again with Mitose...oh well...

Hey Sandor,

The line “The salutation is a celebration of the old and the new” is just not true.

American Kenpoist do the concluding portion ot the saluatation exactly as Kosho-ryu stylist do it. No one else does, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc…..

Mitose had been using it in Hawaii long before Mr. Parker’s BYU days.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this salutation used in
the movie Blood Sport? Watch the very end, when the
reporter / love interest says goodbye to him from just
outside the airplane door. Am I mistaken?? I'm also
pretty sure we did it in Tung Soo Do.

I think you are talking about the beginning of the salutation, which almost ever school of southern Chinese Gong fu does. I mean the part that comes next, with the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands (high), covered fist (mid) and prayer hands (low).

This is found only in American Kenpo and Kosho-ryu.

BTW Speakman had a cameo in the movie Bloodsport, is that what you are referring too?

If you mean covered fist with open had, .... every East Asian martial arts uses that, i.e. Chinese, Okinawan, Korean, etc…. Not what I meant.

Okay, I stand corrected .. we don't do what you're referring
to, in my school. ... I didn't know Speakman had a cameo
in that movie, now I'll hafta watch it again. The part I was
referring to was at the end, Frank Dux was boarding a plane,
and at the top of the stairs leading to the plane, he saw his
love interest, the blonde reporter. She put her left hand
over her fist, and did that head nod / bow thing.

May be of some interest to you, found it surfing.

Rob

http://www.nackordkarate.com/frame.asp?sFrameContents=ContentsKnowledge.htm&sFrameMain=KnowledgeBase.htm

The salutation, the FULL salutation as we know it in AK was developed by SGM Parker. Mitose had not a thing to do with it. Nor did Chow. I am speaking of the FULL salutation, and not just the hand over fist bow.

The hand over fist bow has it's origins in China, and the significance or interpretation of such has many levels. It represents shelter against evil, as well as concealment of wepons or force, as well as aggression, etc... It is generally considered a sign of good intention. Just like the anglo tradition of the handshake was originally conceived to demonstrate to your host you did not posess a weapon. Same concept.

Originally posted by vincefuess
The salutation, the FULL salutation as we know it in AK was developed by SGM Parker. Mitose had not a thing to do with it. Nor did Chow. I am speaking of the FULL salutation, and not just the hand over fist bow.


You obviously didn’t read the original post or haven’t done any research, because the salutation was in no way developed by Mr. Parker.

The first section of the salutation, every school of southern Chinese Gong fu does, i.e. Hong Jia Quan (Hung Gar), Cailifoquan (Choy Lay Fut), etc..

I mean the part that comes next, where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands (high), covered fist (mid) and prayer hands (low).

This order and style is found only in American Kenpo and Kosho-ryu. Mitose did it long before American was formed. So why is it done in American Kenpo?

Sanxiawuyi

P.S. I, like you, believe there was no kosho-ryu like stated in other post, but I think there is a link to Kusankun (also known as Koshokan and Koshankun). Mitose learned from somewhere!?

The Kenpo Exchange (http://www.freewebz.com/kenpoexchange/)

:asian:

I agree with you and thank you for your reply. I was tired when I made that post and wasn't all that clear (though I have a hard time making my points clearly anyway).

Each of the symbolic gestures of the salute have been around since antiquity. The hand over fist, the triangle, the prayer hands, etc.- but am I wrong in saying that Ed Parker was the first to combine them in that particular sequence?

As it was taught to me, the physical gestures are executed along with the verbage of each gesture:

The warrior (fist presented) and the scholar (fist withdrawn, open palm presented) come together (left palm withdrawn to cover right fist as a right front twist stance is employed) go forth in battle (right fist and left palm presented as you step thru to left front cat stance) back to back united as one (top of hands together then rolled and withdrawn to hips and attention stance) we have no weapons (hands form triangle forward overhead and step to horse stance) and we hide our treasure in the art of kenpo (triangle lowered to look thru- then closed to hand over fist) and beg forgiveness if we are forced to use it (praying hands position) we dispell all evil (hands sweep up and over to sides as we return to attention stance).

Now before the posts start- I have heard many different versions of the exact words used, but the intent is the same- so let's not waste time correcting verbage.

It has always been my understanding that SGM Parker developed this particular version of the salute. Again, like all things that relate to martial arts this is likely a topic of debate (gosh what isn't?) and welcome your further points of view on the subject.

Thanks again for the input!

Originally posted by vincefuess
It has always been my understanding that SGM Parker developed this particular version of the salute. Again, like all things that relate to martial arts this is likely a topic of debate (gosh what isn't?) and welcome your further points of view on the subject. Thanks again for the input!

Again, I am not speaking about the first section of the salutation, which was developed by the Southern Chinese.

The next section of the American Kenpo salutation, where the practitioner puts their hands together in opened hands (high), covered fist (mid) and prayer hands (low).

With all due respect to Mr. Parker, the unquestionable Father of “American” Kenpo, he did not create this salutation, he put two salutations together.

The first part is obviously from Southern Chinese systems, and if Mitose was doing the second part long before American Kenpo, as is evident from his first book, why does American Kenpo have it as part of their curriculum if there is nothing to do with Kosho? I am just curious, as NO other system of martial arts, to my knowledge, does that type of salutation.

Again, to reiterate, NOT the first section which is Southern Chinese, but the last section from Mitose.

Respectfully,
Scott
:asian:

Originally posted by donald

I was'nt aware that American kenpo's salutation was so different from other "Chinese" influenced arts. That linage is where I believe we get our full salute from. Not from the Kosho-Ryu . At the risk of starting a blizzard. I believe American kenpo's roots are invariably connected to Mr.Mitose, and to that of the aforementioned Kosho-Ryu systems. I say this because of all the historical data that bears this out. The art in Mr.Chow's hands grew, and changed. Just as it did in Mr.Parker's hands, and as it does in the hands of his students. Does this sound somewhat correct to some of the "seniors" out there? :asian:

Nope.

Originally posted by Sandor

We the warrior and the scholar go forth to fight, together we shall take back our country.

I am friendly and unarmed.
I hide my secret.
I pray for forgiveness if I need to use it.

then unsaid (as two claws go around to close, palm then fingertips) there is no meaningless motion.

The salutation is a celebration of the old and the new. The old being the tradidional kungfu style opening and the new being the part you are looking for an explanation for. I would suggest a look at SGM Parkers devout religous beliefs as being a part of it and also his way of making obvious the departure from the traditional martial arts world.

Just a few ideas. I wish he were around to ask him because these are on my list of proverbial 'why's'...

Another good question to ask would be how did Parker pick up the salutation before his and Mitose's timelines crossed, OR, was it the other way around as many would like you to belive?

It has always been my understanding that this salutation was used and developed by Parker during his BYU days.



Peace,
Sandor

Yep. The praying hands.

This was shared at a camp by one of the most Senior Seniors regarding the end of the salutation. Somewhat irreverent, but those who know him would understand.

Triange = Body, Mind, and Spirit
Left Palm over Right Fist = Come together (implied "in Kenpo" or "weapon/warrior & sheild/scholar") to trash you.
Meditating Hands = and we are really sorry!

So in an advanced class we heard "Body, mind, and spirit come together to trash you, and we are really sorry ... "

The rest is probably better left unsaid - but I never forgot it and always got a chuckle out of it.

-Micheal
UKS-Texas

::::The slap-wipe of the back of your hands against your thighs::::

explelling negative energy

::::as you open to a horse and create the triangle::::

forming the unity of Mind, Body and Spirit

::::to the left-over-right::::

a secret art

::::descend the left-over-right to your heart level::::

that we hold close

::::dropping praying hands to your solar plexus, pointing up on the 45 degree angle::::

and pray (for what we might have to do, or who we might have to do it do)


This is what Parker shared with Hawkins, and what Hawkins shared with me. Concerning the origins, Mitose or not...hmmm. If we are saying the salutation, I'm not sure.

If we're talking about the other aspects of training, I've heard many battle this subject. More often than not, I've heard old time family, friends and students of Parker Sr. lead me to believe that Mitose was more of a workout partner than a significant teacher of Chow. Not to take away from Mitose's abilities, but I've never heard one of Parker's students, who met Mitose (besides Al Tracy) speak of Mitose as anything significant.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

Originally posted by Wes Idol
I've never heard one of Parker's students, who met Mitose (besides Al Tracy) speak of Mitose as anything significant.


Correct! ........ He was in


:asian:

Originally posted by Wes Idol


...
Not to take away from Mitose's abilities, but I've never heard one of Parker's students, who met Mitose (besides Al Tracy) speak of Mitose as anything significant.

Respectfully,

Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com

So, this still kind of leaves the question about the "second half" of the salutation's origins unanswered. Unless, simply put, SGM Parker learned the salute from Mitose (and I'm not defending Mitose here), thought it was significant, and in true Kenpo fashion "borrowed what is useful". :lol:

Interestingly, the only place that this particular salute is used in the version of Tracy's Karate that I learned, is in the Two-Man Set.
But already been involved in that controversy and will now sit down and be:

vewy, vewy qwiet ... heh heh heh heh heh....

Dan

Dan

I thought that the beggining moves of the salutation were taken from the Chinese arts (as I've seen in most Gung Fu systems) and that the ending was put on by Mr. Parker.

Here's a question for all you EPAK people out there. Does it really matter how or whom Mr. Parker was influenced by? Couldn't this time be used for more fruitful ventures for knowledge?

Just a thought...:asian:

Originally posted by kenpo3631

I thought that the beggining moves of the salutation were taken from the Chinese arts (as I've seen in most Gung Fu systems) and that the ending was put on by Mr. Parker.

Here's a question for all you EPAK people out there. Does it really matter how or whom Mr. Parker was influenced by? Couldn't this time be used for more fruitful ventures for knowledge?

Just a thought...:asian:

I agree!!!! It doesn't matter where who or when it came from to be honest I know why I was taught it and the meaning behind it. I like the fact that some of it came from here some of it came from here. It was put together by Mr. Parker so I'll do it!

What happened to the whole "warrior and scholar" concept?

A warrior learns the "hows" how to win with the technologies available to them.

The scholar knows the "whys" and the "hows". He knows the reason behind the motions. The basic chinese hand motion in the EPAK salute credits this, it is also related to in the Tiger and Dragon concepts (look down on your gi at your patch). Are you giving up on this?

Are we going to settle for not knowing because finding the history is difficult or unpalatable?

Lamont

We should always remain students. As such, we need to continue to explore more on "all" aspects of our ART. Physical is normally for the youth and the Mental is normally for the more mature (thus : Tiger - Dragon) our Journey should end in death along the road, seeing much along the way but not quite reaching the end of the pavement. Understanding of the Art comes with an attitude such as this.

:asian:

Are we going to settle for not knowing because finding the history is difficult or unpalatable?

I am not giving up on anything. If you want to to know the "real" reason or who is responsible for the hand movements of the salutation you're going to have to go further back than Parker, Chow and Mitose!

I consider it enlightening to know but I am not obsessed to the point I need to have an indepth discussion over it. I have bigger fish to fry learning the "system" Mr. Parker gave us. :asian:

Originally posted by kenpo3631
I am not obsessed to the point I need to have an indepth discussion over it. I have bigger fish to fry learning the "system" Mr. Parker gave us.


Since I didn't ask the question but only commented on it....... lol, I didn't recall being obsessed about it, but someone was interested in this particular question. I find all aspects of our art unique and interesting but I also agree with you that this is not a prime topic to spend weeks on....... lol.

I know what I do often times when I feel that the topic is light or I have "bigger fish that I want to search for" .......... which is, I just don't comment on the string if I feel it is being beat to death or I have no knowledge to shed or interest there. But to others, it may be new and interesting to their knowledge base.

One thread that keeps popping up which I feel similar is the difference between Parker and Tracy curriculums........ uggggggg but we must remember that the net is "new" to many each day and many do not research the archives much to find prior threads that may cover a topic.

:asian:

Thanks for agreeing GD, however I never said you were obsessed with anything.

I know what I do often times when I feel that the topic is light or I have "bigger fish that I want to search for" .......... which is, I just don't comment on the string if I feel it is being beat to death or I have no knowledge to shed or interest there.

Thant's why this is called a F-O-R-U-M...GD. It is here for ALL of us to express our own opinions whether they shed light on a subject or not.:asian:

.....is a salutation. It is a greeting, a beginning, the overture to the tune.

Yes, there is symbolism in it. However, I have heard at *least* three different interpretations on the whole "Chinese beginning" section as well. I am sure that all are right, depending on where you stand and who you heard it from.

Personally, I don't CARE who developed the salutation or why. Knowing the interpretations are important to me, but determining which one is "right" and where they all came from is not.

Besides all that, I am no expert, my crystal ball is broken, my e.s.p. isn't working right now, and I have been having trouble communicating with the dead for some time.....so I won't get any solid answers, anyway.....:D

Peace--

I use a variation of the Mitose salutation from Kosho Sho Ryu in the system which i teach of Clandestine Black Dragon Kenpo Karatejutsu, and my system Butokutsuru Ryu Kenpojutsu which i'am founder, for reasons of the lineage back to shaolin, as well as honoring the old, new and future. Speaking of shaolin , is this not where the covered left palm over fist was created by the survivors of the temple burning to restore the chings to power?
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

We should always remain students. As such, we need to continue to explore more on "all" aspects of our ART. Physical is normally for the youth and the Mental is normally for the more mature (thus : Tiger - Dragon) our Journey should end in death along the road, seeing much along the way but not quite reaching the end of the pavement. Understanding of the Art comes with an attitude such as this.

:asian:

Student huh? Well, go practice your forms, like right now!:soapbox:

Originally posted by Chiduce

...
Speaking of shaolin , is this not where the covered left palm over fist was created by the survivors of the temple burning to restore the chings to power?
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

No.

Originally posted by Sigung86



No. The temple overthrow for the five elders ( last high postioned monk survivers) was during the Ching/Qing Dynasty. The overthrow was by the Manchus. The supporters of overthrowing the Mings/Manchu's were Ching supporters. The Kenpo Fist Of Today; consisting of the Left Palm curled over the Right Closed Fist was used as a secret greeting among those Ching Survivers And Rebels which supported the cause of overthrowing the Manchu/Ming government!
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

Um...aahh...I say, "No," too. Regrettably, this looks like another of the many myths about Shaolin--which apparently was burned more than twice.

Without characterizing anything, I should note that one of the consistent problems in kenpo has been a strong tendency to mythologize--about Mr. Parker, about the art and its origins, about its ideas.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Could I ask for sources on this material? I know mine--Parker's "Infinite Insights," and Larry Tatum, in large part, together with Donn Draeger's books and "Journal of Asian Martial Arts,"--and I'd be interested to see where the info about secret handshakes comes from, exactly.

I probably shouldn't write this, but I'd also note that a little less pretense on all our parts might help in such discussions. Look at Strunk and White's "Elements of Style," or Edw. Parker's own comments on good writing.

Thanks,
Robert

Yes, you are right about the ancient chinese myths; yet since the only thing that they had was story telling about the temple burning; it is safe to assume that what was passed down as story probably happened. Shaolin Temple New York is a great source of accurate history on the temple burnings during this period. From what actually is known as fact; The Shaolin Si Zhi/ Historical Record Of Shaolin, existed as far back as the Song Dynasty (960-1278 A.D.) So, it is safe to assume that this historical text also existed into the Qing dynasty and to the present day. I'am sure that the Monk Scribes of today are chronicling the New Temple Restoration in China today in this same newer version copy of this ancient text. I'am not saying that you are wrong about what Infinite Insights or the other references say about this same salute. I'am saying though, that the left palm placed over the right closed fist acutally was used as far back as the Ching Dynasty overthrow. Today, it may have many other meanings from many interpretations. Yet, it is actual fact that it was used in this historical time period.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

I don't understand where Chiduce gets all of his information from, but he has me interested. Sir, the salute actually came about before the Ch'ing Dynasty. I offer you the following:

Before the establishment of Shao-lin (Mandarin) or Sil Lum (Cantonese), an open left hand resting on a right clenched fist was used as a salutation preceeding a set or form.

This gesture has several different meanings:

(1) Respect to the originator of this particular system and all of those who had trained before him, with him, and under him.

(2) Respect to both scholars and men of the martial arts alike; since the left open hand represents the scholar, and the right clenched fist represented the warrior (or martial artist).

(3) Respect to the audience.

During the period of the Shao-lin or Sil Lum in the Ch'ing Dynasty (1644-1912) the meaning of the salute changed, and two additional movements were added to it. This significantly altered the original meaning of the salute.

The new definition changed the following things in the original gesture: The left open hand represented the day, and the right clenched fist was symbolic of the moon. Together they represented the chinese character Ming, identifying the practitoner as a revolutionary defender for the cause of the Ming restoration.

The first of the two added movements was accomplished by rolling the palms of both hands, down and out, ending with the back of the left hand against the back of the right hand (palms open, and facing out to the sides). The fingers at this point were formed like claws and raised to chest level. This movement meant that the practitioner was against foreign domination and that his heart was true to the real China.

The second move was done by clenching both hands into fists and simultaneously pulling both of them back to the hips in a chambered position, palm up. The pulling movement meant that by working together the practitioner and other followers of the movement could take their country back by working together.

According to what I've been told, Mr. Parker had a profound appreciation for the original meaning behind the salute, and reverted to that defintion of it for our Kenpo System.

Left over Right:
The Scholar and the Warrior come together...

Hands turned palm out:
...to defend against foreign domination...

Clenched fists pulled back to the hips:
...by pulling together.

Hands form the shape of a traingle:
I am friendly and unarmed...
(This gesture has also been interpeted as the unification of mind body and spirit)

Left open hand conceals right clenched fist:
I now cover my weapon, for I wish not to use it...

Hands placed together as if praying:
...but now that I am being forced to use my weapon, I pray for forgiveness for what I am about to do.

Take Care,
Billy Lear

Originally posted by brianhunter



I agree!!!! It doesn't matter where who or when it came from to be honest I know why I was taught it and the meaning behind it. I like the fact that some of it came from here some of it came from here. It was put together by Mr. Parker so I'll do it!

Sometimes it's good to ask questions, especially about things like this.

If you forget about the past, the lessons that lie within it cannot save you in the future.

It's not only the how and the why, but the who, what, when and where, that can be important too.

While I have an asserted appreciation for the honesty of your answer... I also have to say that it was a little shallow too.

Hasta,
Billy Lear

Originally posted by WilliamTLear



Sometimes it's good to ask questions, especially about things like this.

If you forget about the past, the lessons that lie within it cannot save you in the future.

It's not only the how and the why, but the who, what, when and where, that can be important too.

While I have an asserted appreciation for the honesty of your answer... I also have to say that it was a little shallow too.

Hasta,
Billy Lear

I agree with you Billy it was a little shallow but who isnt from time to time?!?!??!...Clyde said your an alright guy and I trust him so your alright in my book ;)
Yes it can be important, I guess to futher explain my response was the thread was almost impliying that it did not belong in our art and that our founder didnt develop all of it....I like it, I enjoy its meaning and its history but sometimes people argue logistics for the simple principle that they are arguing logistics. This was a battle that I chose to stay in the "shallow" waters on. I know why "I" do it and why "I" was taught it.... sometimes thats all that is important and sometimes that is shallow ;)
for that I apoligize
And Im all about brutal honesty....your a very honestly spoken guy yourself so the mutual respect is there. I wish more people where like that.

I seem to be feeling bit too dogged today, but in the interests of the "scholarly," part of the salute, let me note something fundamental to good scholarship in the university sense: it is never safe to assume that a historical event "must have happened," simply because the tale is so often repeated.

Much of what we think we know about martial arts and their history is the product of recent invention. If a couple of articles I've seen in "Journal of Asian Martial Arts," are to be trusted, a lot of the guff about Shaolin is the product of 19th-century Chinese fiction. More than that, there're tendencies in Chinese lit. to exaggerate in order to make a point.l And then too, we all of us have incentives to fictionalize a bit, partly in order to justify our arduous study of an art that if we do everything right, we never get to actually use.

Other stuff goes on too: the tendency to assume that if it ain't "Asian," it ain't real. (Mr. Tatum was teaching last year, walked outside to get a breath of fresh air while we fumbled around, and some guy walked up and said, "Ah, what you do is very good. But you don't have Asian eyes." Then, he tried to uppercut Mr. Tatum. Oops.) Orientalism is an enemy of understanding the history of kenpo.

Of course, the other problem is that it's a lot easier for me to point out logical/scholarly flaws than it is to offer historical records. That would be an interesting discussion though: how would we go about writing a real history of martial arts in America?

Thanks,
Robert

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

I seem to be feeling bit too dogged today, but in the interests of the "scholarly," part of the salute, let me note something fundamental to good scholarship in the university sense: it is never safe to assume that a historical event "must have happened," simply because the tale is so often repeated.

...

That would be an interesting discussion though: how would we go about writing a real history of martial arts in America?

Thanks,
Robert

I thought Mr. Bleecker was doing just that? :rofl:

Dan

For a thread that I probably would not read all the way through, this has turned into an interesting discussion. Although somewhat contradictory, the information provided offers a sound bit of research on the contributors' part. Thanks Mucho!

Now about Strunk and White's "Elements of Style," I have it, I hate it, and I do not want to have to see it here. I get enough of it at work. Thank you very much. My copy sits on it's shelf, where it belongs!!! It is the definitive grammer text, but please, not on a forum. (You can obviously tell I have some "Issues" with people telling me how to express myself.) This is not an attack for those who do not know me .... but more of a humorous note on grammerians :rofl: (my Mom was an English major probably explains a lot.)

-Michael
UKS-Texas

I have seen in the American Kenpo salutation, at the end, a section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands.

Just curious, if American Kenpo has no relationship to Mitose or Kosho-ryu, why is this part of American Kenpo?

Scott, it seems to me that Parker would likely have learned this salutation from Chow, and although he did not like to claim Mitose as part of his lineage, may not have known that the part of the salutation in question had it's beginnings in Mitose's art.

Like Dan, the only place I know of this salutation being used in Tracy's is in Two Man Set, a set that was NOT developed by Parker. It could be possible then, that the salutation came to Parker through Woo.

Was this part of the salutation the inspiration for the "I come to you with empty hands..." creed?

Dave

Originally posted by KenpoDave

I have seen in the American Kenpo salutation, at the end, a section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands.

Just curious, if American Kenpo has no relationship to Mitose or Kosho-ryu, why is this part of American Kenpo?

Scott, it seems to me that Parker would likely have learned this salutation from Chow, and although he did not like to claim Mitose as part of his lineage, may not have known that the part of the salutation in question had it's beginnings in Mitose's art.

Like Dan, the only place I know of this salutation being used in Tracy's is in Two Man Set, a set that was NOT developed by Parker. It could be possible then, that the salutation came to Parker through Woo.

Was this part of the salutation the inspiration for the "I come to you with empty hands..." creed?

Dave

Well Sir, you are right the Two-Man Set from Tracy's I believe is different from the Parker Two-man Set also known as the "Book Set." The Parker version was borrowed from Hung gar along with "Tiger and the Crane" and a couple of other experiments while Parker was studying with Chinese Masters.

As far as "Kosho ryu" There was no such thing (at least that term was not used) until Mitose came to the mainland. According to those who were there like Emperado, Mitose didn't really have much of an art, just some basic "karate" stuff. Nothing special, and Mitose almost never worked out. Outside of his book there are very few pictures of him in a gi. Most of the time he worn his "con man suit." A priests robe and collar with a large cross around his neck.

So everyone that does a part of a salutation that resembles something Mitose says he did is in Mitose's lineage? I think this is really a dead issue. Parker himself declared Mitose not a part of his lineage and that is all that matters, and I know for sure American Kenpo comes from Parker with very little physical input from even Chow.

The part about "empty hands" in the creed alluded to the translation for the Japanese word "karate." The word "karate" was inserted in the creed inadvertently by those who ignored the hypens and brackets. Parker was only attempting to educate the public that "karate" came from the Chinese not put it in the creed.

Originally posted by Doc



The part about "empty hands" in the creed alluded to the translation for the Japanese word "karate." The word "karate" was inserted in the creed inadvertently by those who ignored the hypens and brackets. Parker was only attempting to educate the public that "karate" came from the Chinese not put it in the creed.
Then how was it originally written?

Originally posted by Seig


Then how was it originally written?

Omit the words "karate" and say the creed and then you'll have it. In the original published version in Ed Parker's first Book on Kenpo in 1961, the words "karate" in the creed were double hypenated and bracketed, only to show the translation, NOT to be recited. Look in the book. He didn't want to call his art Karate but the public only knew 2 words. Judo and karate. So he added karate to kenpo to "sell" his art.

Originally posted by Doc




So everyone that does a part of a salutation that resembles something Mitose says he did is in Mitose's lineage? I think this is really a dead issue. Parker himself declared Mitose not a part of his lineage and that is all that matters, and I know for sure American Kenpo comes from Parker with very little physical input from even Chow.

The part about "empty hands" in the creed alluded to the translation for the Japanese word "karate." The word "karate" was inserted in the creed inadvertently by those who ignored the hypens and brackets. Parker was only attempting to educate the public that "karate" came from the Chinese not put it in the creed.

No, I am wondering if the salutation ended up in Parker Kenpo without Parker knowing from where it came. Having been used by Mitose, I am sure others knew it, obviously Chow, likely Emperado. It could have made it's way to Parker without having come "directly" from Mitose.

As far as the creed, when I was taught Two Man Set, we recited the creed during the salutation. The hand positions go along with the words, and so I am wondering if it is this salutation that inspired the creed, or at least the order of the prose.

Originally posted by KenpoDave



No, I am wondering if the salutation ended up in Parker Kenpo without Parker knowing from where it came. Having been used by Mitose, I am sure others knew it, obviously Chow, likely Emperado. It could have made it's way to Parker without having come "directly" from Mitose.

As far as the creed, when I was taught Two Man Set, we recited the creed during the salutation. The hand positions go along with the words, and so I am wondering if it is this salutation that inspired the creed, or at least the order of the prose.

The creed existed independent of physical interpretations. "Uncle Dave" (Ed Parkers "little brother") also contributed to the creed as well as drew the first patch.

Originally posted by WilliamTLear

I don't understand where Chiduce gets all of his information from, but he has me interested. Sir, the salute actually came about before the Ch'ing Dynasty. I offer you the following:

Before the establishment of Shao-lin (Mandarin) or Sil Lum (Cantonese), an open left hand resting on a right clenched fist was used as a salutation preceeding a set or form.

This gesture has several different meanings:

(1) Respect to the originator of this particular system and all of those who had trained before him, with him, and under him.

(2) Respect to both scholars and men of the martial arts alike; since the left open hand represents the scholar, and the right clenched fist represented the warrior (or martial artist).

(3) Respect to the audience.

During the period of the Shao-lin or Sil Lum in the Ch'ing Dynasty (1644-1912) the meaning of the salute changed, and two additional movements were added to it. This significantly altered the original meaning of the salute.

The new definition changed the following things in the original gesture: The left open hand represented the day, and the right clenched fist was symbolic of the moon. Together they represented the chinese character Ming, identifying the practitoner as a revolutionary defender for the cause of the Ming restoration.

The first of the two added movements was accomplished by rolling the palms of both hands, down and out, ending with the back of the left hand against the back of the right hand (palms open, and facing out to the sides). The fingers at this point were formed like claws and raised to chest level. This movement meant that the practitioner was against foreign domination and that his heart was true to the real China.

The second move was done by clenching both hands into fists and simultaneously pulling both of them back to the hips in a chambered position, palm up. The pulling movement meant that by working together the practitioner and other followers of the movement could take their country back by working together.

According to what I've been told, Mr. Parker had a profound appreciation for the original meaning behind the salute, and reverted to that defintion of it for our Kenpo System.

Left over Right:
The Scholar and the Warrior come together...

Hands turned palm out:
...to defend against foreign domination...

Clenched fists pulled back to the hips:
...by pulling together.

Hands form the shape of a traingle:
I am friendly and unarmed...
(This gesture has also been interpeted as the unification of mind body and spirit)

Left open hand conceals right clenched fist:
I now cover my weapon, for I wish not to use it...

Hands placed together as if praying:
...but now that I am being forced to use my weapon, I pray for forgiveness for what I am about to do.

Take Care,
Billy Lear I took the salutation back to the Qing Dynasty because of my other post about the overthrow, and shaolin burning an the escaping monks. So, the Qing Dynasty was the specific concentrated focus of the post. The triads formed because of this overthrow and the burning of shaolin. Also, my info. comes from various sources such as, Qi Gong Kung Fu Magazine, Shaolin White Crane History ( Yang Jwing Ming), Chinese Boxing Institute, Shaolin Temple New York, etc,.
Thank you for your input and clarification also.
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Has anyone ever thought, or been shown, some practical applications of the salutation? Especially the first part? :confused:

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Has anyone ever thought, or been shown, some practical applications of the salutation?

"I have no weapons."

That triangle you hold up is a representation of the joint locks such as the wrist joint lock. ie - thumbs on the back of the palm while holding the wrist compression.

Originally posted by jeffkyle

Has anyone ever thought, or been shown, some practical applications of the salutation? Especially the first part? :confused:
Yes sir. There are many applications in the salutation as I was taught.

Originally posted by Doc

Yes sir. There are many applications in the salutation as I was taught.

Could you give us some examples?

Originally posted by jeffkyle

Has anyone ever thought, or been shown, some practical applications of the salutation? Especially the first part? :confused:

You mean the part with left open hand and right fist where you do the thing that ends in a cat?

I heard a story of a kenpoist who was at a tournament where they did all the commands in a language other than english. The ref said something what he didn't understand so he started to do the salutation. The other person came charging in (the command had been to start a fight) and the kenposist closes his left hand into a first and hits the guy in the face then comes back and finishes the salutation without missing a beat, thus winning the match.

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Has anyone ever thought, or been shown, some practical applications of the salutation? Especially the first part?


Yep, the entire salutation!

:asian:

The right back elbow / left heel palm sandwich, or the left inward elbow as you execute a thrusting sweep kick (stepping into your twist stance?

Or was it the applications after that. Can you say "hidden moves" and "let no motion be wasted motion" ... if you have that kinda inquiring mind.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

Originally posted by Michael Billings

The right back elbow / left heel palm sandwich, or the left inward elbow as you execute a thrusting sweep kick (stepping into your twist stance?

Or was it the applications after that. Can you say "hidden moves" and "let no motion be wasted motion" ... if you have that kinda inquiring mind.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

That was what I had in mind. Thank you Mr. Billings! :)

Hi Folks,
This has been quite an interesting thread on one of the key ingredients of the american kenpo "tradition"...the salutation.

So, i'll start at the first post and answer some of the various posters...

The first question was aimed at asking if the second part of the salutation originates from James Mitose's Kosho Ryu Kenpo system and the answer is yes, it does!

Mr. Parker was originally taught the salute in his training with Prof. Chow, who trained directly with Mitose and was eventually awarded a Fifth Degree Black Belt by Mitose. You can check with Adriano Emperado [one of the founders of Kajukenbo] who is still alive and trained in classes with Mr. Parker and was his senior under Chow.

When I asked Mr. Parker about it in the 1980's he grudgingly admitted that it came from Chow and when he later had Mitose stop by one of his studios [Huk Planas and Steve Hearring were both there and can give you insight into those visits]

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/
:::getting off my soapbox now::: :soapbox:

Fellow Kenpoists,

I was just browsing and saw this topic... Mr. Lee Wedlake Jr. offers a great explanation and history of the Kenpo salutation in his new book, Kenpo 201.

Just thought I would let people know if you were interested. It is a great book. Lots of explanations.

Salute and good journey!

Respectfully In Kenpo,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh

www.unitedparkerskenpo.com

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi

I posted this at another kenpo forum as well....

I have seen in the American Kenpo salutation, at the end, a section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands.

Just curious, if American Kenpo has no relationship to Mitose or Kosho-ryu, why is this part of American Kenpo?

It is found in no other system of martial arts, only Mitose’s Kenpo, and later American Kenpo, Tracy’s etc..

Sanxiawuyi
:confused:

The Kenpo Exchange (http://www.freewebz.com/kenpoexchange/)

Dear San,
Who told you there was no relationship to Mitose's Kosho Ryu system in Ed Parker's American Kenpo?
BTW, there are other okinawan kenpo/kempo styles that use variations on Mitose's saluation.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/
:::getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox:

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi

The American kenpo salutation is different from other "Chinese" influenced arts.

The beginning is very similar to Southern Chinese systems, i.e. Hung Gar Gong Fu, Choy Lay Fut, etc.. but the part I mentioned (the end section where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands, covered fist and prayer hands) isn’t in any Chinese systems, Northern or Southern.

Sanxiawuyi

The Kenpo Exchange (http://www.freewebz.com/kenpoexchange/)

Dear San,
The first section of the full salutation originates from Shaolin Chuan system of kung fu/Wu shu/Wu su specifically and not only southern, but many northern systems [predominently shaolin based] styles use it as well.
I hoipe that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/
:::getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox:

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi

Hey Sandor,

The line “The salutation is a celebration of the old and the new” is just not true.

American Kenpoist do the concluding portion ot the saluatation exactly as Kosho-ryu stylist do it. No one else does, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc…..

Mitose had been using it in Hawaii long before Mr. Parker’s BYU days.

I disagree with you, san!
Sandor, who used the term “The salutation is a celebration of the old and the new” was accurate because it was it was the blending of the two major influences of the chinese and okinawan/japanese arts that comprise the american kenpo system and the blending of those two salutations in a NEW format.

...and again, certain Goju styles use the same salutation at the end of certain katas.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/
:::getting off my soapbox::::soapbox:

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi


...The first section of the salutation, every school of southern Chinese Gong fu does, i.e. Hong Jia Quan (Hung Gar), Cailifoquan (Choy Lay Fut), etc..

I mean the part that comes next, where the practitioner puts there hands together in opened hands (high), covered fist (mid) and prayer hands (low).

This order and style is found only in American Kenpo and Kosho-ryu. Mitose did it long before American was formed. So why is it done in American Kenpo?

Sanxiawuyi

P.S. I, like you, believe there was no kosho-ryu like stated in other post, but I think there is a link to Kusankun (also known as Koshokan and Koshankun). Mitose learned from somewhere!?

The Kenpo Exchange (http://www.freewebz.com/kenpoexchange/)

:asian: [/B]

Dear san,
I realize that you want to use the pinyin translation for the chinese styles and occasionally the crown-wiles translation as well
Ts'ai Li fo/choy lay fut/Cai li fo and i think it's very comprehensive of you to do so...
I have explained on the kosho connection in an earlier post but i will detail it out later on in much more detail...
I think you are on the right track with kusanku's influence as well, but that is not where Mr. Parker got the idea to incorporate it into the full salutation.

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/kenpojoe/
:::getting off my soapbox:::
:soapbox:

Doc,
This post is primarily aimed at you! I was looking over old post, and came across a one worded answer from you pointed at me! I made some comments about a Mitose/Parker connection, and asked for some clarification from some kenpo "seniors" as to whether I was speaking out of turn, or not. I am not sure what your response(which was "nope")meant. Please understand that this IS not an attempt to start any type of broughhaha. Just a somewhat curious fella out for a informational stroll.

Salute in Christ
:asian:

Originally posted by donald
I was'nt aware that American kenpo's salutation was so different from other "Chinese" influenced arts. That linage is where I believe we get our full salute from. Not from the Kosho-Ryu . At the risk of starting a blizzard. I believe American kenpo's roots are invariably connected to Mr.Mitose, and to that of the aforementioned Kosho-Ryu systems. I say this because of all the historical data that bears this out. The art in Mr.Chow's hands grew, and changed. Just as it did in Mr.Parker's hands, and as it does in the hands of his students. Does this sound somewhat correct to some of the "seniors" out there? :asian:

this is the Quote that Doc responded to...... and he was saying "nope" to what you wrote, this does NOT sound somewhat correct.

:asian:

Nope,

Mr. Parker and Mr. Chow don't have any lineage to Mitose. While Doc and I have our differences (and that is often these days), I 100% agree with him on this topic. Nobody of any reputation will support the idea that Mitose taught Mr. Parker or Mr. Chow anything.

Hope that helps,
Billy Lear, UKS (http://www.geocities.com/williamtlear)

Originally posted by WilliamTLear
Nope,

Mr. Parker and Mr. Chow don't have any lineage to Mitose. While Doc and I have our differences (and that is often these days), I 100% agree with him on this topic. Nobody of any reputation will support the idea that Mitose taught Mr. Parker or Mr. Chow anything.

Hope that helps,
Billy Lear, UKS (http://www.geocities.com/williamtlear)

Dear Bill,
With all due respect, you are mistaken & you don't know what you are talking about in this matter. :)
William Chow's MAIN instructor in Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo was James Mitose! Thomas Young, Mitose's main assistant instructor, was the person who signed Chow's certificate, but it was Mitose that Chow got his main training from in Kenpo. Chow is prominently featured in all the group shots of the "official self defense club" in Hawaii. In the last written interview done with Chow, He clearly states that he got his main knowledge from Mitose and lists him as his instructor.
I have a good reputation on kenpo history and I will easily support the idea that Chow was trained in Kenpo by Mitose. I am not saying that Chow did not have other influences that contributed to the creation of what Chow would later call "Kara Ho", Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo is still the base. That is the main reason why the Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo salutaion is placed as the last part of the American Kenpo Salutation.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox:::
:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/

Originally posted by Doc
The creed existed independent of physical interpretations. "Uncle Dave" (Ed Parkers "little brother") also contributed to the creed as well as drew the first patch.

Hi Doc!
The "Kenpo Creed" was not created by David Parker. The actual creator [per se] of the Creed was Ben Otake, who would later leave Mr. Parker and go to the Kyokushinkai organization of Mas Oyama.
There is an earlier karate creed that is somewhat similar to it, Perhaps Otake got the inspiration from that old creed.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox
:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Hi Doc!
The "Kenpo Creed" was not created by David Parker. The actual creator [per se] of the Creed was Ben Otake, who would later leave Mr. Parker and go to the Kyokushinkai organization of Mas Oyama.
There is an earlier karate creed that is somewhat similar to it, Perhaps Otake got the inspiration from that old creed.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox
:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/
Respectfully Joe,
Ben Otake left Mr.Parker to join Tak Kubota of Gosoku Ryu and he is still one of the seniors. It is possible that Mr. Otake had something to do with the creed, because the same creed is displayed in Mr. Kubota's Dojo.

:asian:

Billy,

Let's let those that were there shed some light from their different perspectives. We know what was written, and this may have been part of Mr. Parker's separating his "American" Kenpo from the other variations, even the ones that started with him.

I have an opinion, but it is just that. Some of these guys were around at the time and have little reason to try to influence us one way or the other. Unfortunatly there are a few that exaggerate or change things for their own benefit. The recent posts do not have that flavor, and the people making them are very reputable.

Oss,
-Michael
AKTS

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Respectfully Joe,
Ben Otake left Mr.Parker to join Tak Kubota of Gosoku Ryu and he is still one of the seniors. It is possible that Mr. Otake had something to do with the creed, because the same creed is displayed in Mr. Kubota's Dojo.

:asian:

Hey Peter T. Ben did indeed go over to Kubota and not Kyokushinkai, and with regard to the creed, the last time I talked to him he said he didn't have anymore to do with it than anybody else other than Parker. Many contributed "ideas" of what it could say, but as usual Ed Parker made the final decision and decided what it would be just like he did with everything else.

Originally posted by Doc
Hey Peter T. Ben did indeed go over to Kubota and not Kyokushinkai, and with regard to the creed, the last time I talked to him he said he didn't have anymore to do with it than anybody else other than Parker. Many contributed "ideas" of what it could say, but as usual Ed Parker made the final decision and decided what it would be just like he did with everything else.
Sure Doc, he (Mr.Parker) was the BOSS and made the final decisions but a lot of works were done by his students as you know.

Respectfully.

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Sure Doc, he (Mr.Parker) was the BOSS and made the final decisions but a lot of works were done by his students as you know.

Respectfully.

Absolutely. A lot of us contributed ideas and projects all the time. He used to send people to other schools and styles to "see" what they were doing. If you saw a good technique or idea he would say "Bring it back and let's see if we can use it." He continued that practice with next generations like Kelly, Planas, and continued it later with people like Conatser, Hancock. All of those "brainy" guys.

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
[B]Hi Doc!
The "Kenpo Creed" was not created by David Parker.

I believe I said he "contributed."

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
[B]Dear Bill,
With all due respect, you are mistaken & you don't know what you are talking about in this matter. :)
William Chow's MAIN instructor in Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo was James Mitose! Thomas Young, Mitose's main assistant instructor, was the person who signed Chow's certificate, but it was Mitose that Chow got his main training from in Kenpo. Chow is prominently featured in all the group shots of the "official self defense club" in Hawaii. In the last written interview done with Chow, He clearly states that he got his main knowledge from Mitose and lists him as his instructor.
I have a good reputation on kenpo history and I will easily support the idea that Chow was trained in Kenpo by Mitose. I am not saying that Chow did not have other influences that contributed to the creation of what Chow would later call "Kara Ho", Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo is still the base. That is the main reason why the Kosho Ryu Kenpo/Kempo salutaion is placed as the last part of the American Kenpo Salutation.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


Clearly this is an area of controversy for some and I can only tell you what I know from my conversations with Mr. Parker and others, as well as from my personal experiences having met Mitose and seen him in person perform "techniques."

It is my opinion you are wrong as stated vehemently by Ed Parker himself. If he was misinformed or lying in your opinion, is not for me to say. When I had the opportunity to view Mitose "in action," it fully supported the "charlatan" label Ed Parker described. Clearly this man couldn't have taught anybody anything credible. Parker said the only thing he ever did was "teach' one form, but he never actually "performed it."

He described Mitose as a "good con man who only came to the mainland because his reputation in the islands was welll known." When he came to California he promptly attempted to get Ed Parker to enter into a con with him by creating a church to support his "Buddists Monk" persona he had in the islands. But he swiitched when he came here to a priest's collar and a big cross around his neck.

However as I, you are entitled to your opinion.

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Respectfully Joe,
Ben Otake left Mr.Parker to join Tak Kubota of Gosoku Ryu and he is still one of the seniors. It is possible that Mr. Otake had something to do with the creed, because the same creed is displayed in Mr. Kubota's Dojo.

:asian:

Dear Peter,
Thank you for the correction regarding Ben Otake! Occasionally, I have a "brain cramp" and have to refer back to old notes and past posts i've written and researched.
Thank you again,
KENPOJOE

Originally posted by Doc
Hey Peter T. Ben did indeed go over to Kubota and not Kyokushinkai, and with regard to the creed, the last time I talked to him he said he didn't have anymore to do with it than anybody else other than Parker. Many contributed "ideas" of what it could say, but as usual Ed Parker made the final decision and decided what it would be just like he did with everything else.

Hi Doc!
I was watching old color film footage of Ben Otake breaking bricks and it stands to reason that he would go with Kubota. I also have IKC footage of Kubota doing his "Sledge Hammer" hand conditioning. Otake is listed in a magazine article as taking credit for coming up with the creed and I'll have to research exactly he's quoted as saying in the article.
Of course, Mr. Parker was always the last word on what stayed and what didn't in the system.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Originally posted by Doc
Clearly this is an area of controversy for some and I can only tell you what I know from my conversations with Mr. Parker and others, as well as from my personal experiences having met Mitose and seen him in person perform "techniques."

It is my opinion you are wrong as stated vehemently by Ed Parker himself. If he was misinformed or lying in your opinion, is not for me to say. When I had the opportunity to view Mitose "in action," it fully supported the "charlatan" label Ed Parker described. Clearly this man couldn't have taught anybody anything credible. Parker said the only thing he ever did was "teach' one form, but he never actually "performed it."

He described Mitose as a "good con man who only came to the mainland because his reputation in the islands was welll known." When he came to California he promptly attempted to get Ed Parker to enter into a con with him by creating a church to support his "Buddists Monk" persona he had in the islands. But he swiitched when he came here to a priest's collar and a big cross around his neck.

However as I, you are entitled to your opinion.
Hey Doc,
If you look at the old pics from the Hawaii days, you would see the picture of Christ in the background a well as Mitose holding a cross in his hand. Not a buddhist monk. Others have also stated that Mitose knew Martial Arts of Kenpo and Jujutsu. I have named these individuals in my previous posts, so no sense to repeat them. As a matter of fact Mr. Parker was the only person to rebut that. Everyone has a motif. Certainly Mr. Parker had his.
Chow's own brother taught Kosho-Ryu and was a senior of Danzan Ryu as well.
Minus Kenpo that was introduced by Miyagi and Yabu in the Islands, all the rest had ties to Mitose. All Hawaiian kenpo/Kempo factions, Kajukenbo and Kara-Ho.
I guess we just have to DUEL this out.
Love you man. Your place or mine?LOL

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Billy,

Let's let those that were there shed some light from their different perspectives. We know what was written, and this may have been part of Mr. Parker's separating his "American" Kenpo from the other variations, even the ones that started with him.

I have an opinion, but it is just that. Some of these guys were around at the time and have little reason to try to influence us one way or the other. Unfortunatly there are a few that exaggerate or change things for their own benefit. The recent posts do not have that flavor, and the people making them are very reputable.

Oss,
-Michael
AKTS

You've got it... turning to the east, and bowing three times. :asian: :asian: :asian:

Originally posted by Doc
Clearly this is an area of controversy for some and I can only tell you what I know from my conversations with Mr. Parker and others, as well as from my personal experiences having met Mitose and seen him in person perform "techniques."

It is my opinion you are wrong as stated vehemently by Ed Parker himself. If he was misinformed or lying in your opinion, is not for me to say. When I had the opportunity to view Mitose "in action," it fully supported the "charlatan" label Ed Parker described. Clearly this man couldn't have taught anybody anything credible. Parker said the only thing he ever did was "teach' one form, but he never actually "performed it."

He described Mitose as a "good con man who only came to the mainland because his reputation in the islands was welll known." When he came to California he promptly attempted to get Ed Parker to enter into a con with him by creating a church to support his "Buddists Monk" persona he had in the islands. But he swiitched when he came here to a priest's collar and a big cross around his neck.

However as I, you are entitled to your opinion.

Dear Doc,
Unfortunately, you are not specific on who's opinion is wrong in this matter. However, for the sake of arguement, I'll presume you are addressing me and my statements.
I'm glad you are able to add your personal insights into this matter and your discussions with Mr. Parker as well as seeing Mitose demonstrate. Would you please elaborate on the times that you did see Mitose perform? I know that there were several times that Mitose did visit one of Mr. parker's studios on several occasions and according to Mr. Parker, tried to get him to "donate" to a "Kenpo Temple". I have spoken to Richard "Huk" Planas, who stated that "He wasn't impressed" and Steve Hearring, who stated that Mitose struck him with a "Nerve Strike" that Steve remembers to this day! This was from personal conversations with both men at different times.

I am well aware of Mr. Parker's opinion of Mitose and how He [mitose] tried to con him out of money. Mr. Parker also never trained with Mitose in Hawaii at any time in his trainiong. He trained with Prof. Chow and individuals like Adriano Emperado, who was his "senior" in Chow's Class at that time. However, Chow had indeed learned from Mitose and was awarded his Black Belt from Thomas Young and Mitose. Please remember Doc, the time frame and the limited ammount of Martial Arts that were available at that time. I'm reminded of the old adage "In the land of dwarfs, the midget is king!". If you are teaching people with no prior martial arts experience, and you have some [although perhaps limited] then you are top man on the totem pole. the form he taught was "naihanchin" and most of his book was a plagarized attempt from a karate text from a man named mutsu, including the photos of Mutsu breaking tiles and Motobu's pic.

Mitose covered his numerous "religious" guises by stating the phrase "when i'm among christians, i'm a christian, when i'm among buddhists, i'm a buddhist." allegedly, he was a buddhist originally and later became a protestant [sp] minister.

I have seen the details of the court transcript and other past charge/rap sheets on Mitose so I can vouch for his "dubious" past.

If I am wrong regarding you addressing me regarding this you have my apologies but I am stating facts as I know them regarding the lineage of the kenpo systems/styles.

I hope that i was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Dear Doc,
Unfortunately, you are not specific on who's opinion is wrong in this matter. However, for the sake of arguement, I'll presume you are addressing me and my statements.
I'm glad you are able to add your personal insights into this matter and your discussions with Mr. Parker as well as seeing Mitose demonstrate. Would you please elaborate on the times that you did see Mitose perform? I know that there were several times that Mitose did visit one of Mr. parker's studios on several occasions and according to Mr. Parker, tried to get him to "donate" to a "Kenpo Temple". I have spoken to Richard "Huk" Planas, who stated that "He wasn't impressed" and Steve Hearring, who stated that Mitose struck him with a "Nerve Strike" that Steve remembers to this day! This was from personal conversations with both men at different times.

I am well aware of Mr. Parker's opinion of Mitose and how He [mitose] tried to con him out of money. Mr. Parker also never trained with Mitose in Hawaii at any time in his trainiong. He trained with Prof. Chow and individuals like Adriano Emperado, who was his "senior" in Chow's Class at that time. However, Chow had indeed learned from Mitose and was awarded his Black Belt from Thomas Young and Mitose. Please remember Doc, the time frame and the limited ammount of Martial Arts that were available at that time. I'm reminded of the old adage "In the land of dwarfs, the midget is king!". If you are teaching people with no prior martial arts experience, and you have some [although perhaps limited] then you are top man on the totem pole. the form he taught was "naihanchin" and most of his book was a plagarized attempt from a karate text from a man named mutsu, including the photos of Mutsu breaking tiles and Motobu's pic.

Mitose covered his numerous "religious" guises by stating the phrase "when i'm among christians, i'm a christian, when i'm among buddhists, i'm a buddhist." allegedly, he was a buddhist originally and later became a protestant [sp] minister.

I have seen the details of the court transcript and other past charge/rap sheets on Mitose so I can vouch for his "dubious" past.

If I am wrong regarding you addressing me regarding this you have my apologies but I am stating facts as I know them regarding the lineage of the kenpo systems/styles.

I hope that i was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/
Dear Joe,
Everything you stated was correct. He was still the top man as far as the lineage thing goes. That is exactly my point. you can disown your family, but you are still in their lineage, like it or not.
"you kill one you are a murderer, you kill thousands and you are a conquerer"


Respectfully,

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Hey Doc,
If you look at the old pics from the Hawaii days, you would see the picture of Christ in the background a well as Mitose holding a cross in his hand. Not a buddhist monk. Others have also stated that Mitose knew Martial Arts of Kenpo and Jujutsu. I have named these individuals in my previous posts, so no sense to repeat them. As a matter of fact Mr. Parker was the only person to rebut that. Everyone has a motif. Certainly Mr. Parker had his.
Chow's own brother taught Kosho-Ryu and was a senior of Danzan Ryu as well.
Minus Kenpo that was introduced by Miyagi and Yabu in the Islands, all the rest had ties to Mitose. All Hawaiian kenpo/Kempo factions, Kajukenbo and Kara-Ho.
I guess we just have to DUEL this out.
Love you man. Your place or mine?LOL

Hell are you kidding? My place. And bring a couple of Pepsi's.:)

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Dear Doc,
Unfortunately, you are not specific on who's opinion is wrong in this matter. However, for the sake of arguement, I'll presume you are addressing me and my statements.
I'm glad you are able to add your personal insights into this matter and your discussions with Mr. Parker as well as seeing Mitose demonstrate. Would you please elaborate on the times that you did see Mitose perform? I know that there were several times that Mitose did visit one of Mr. parker's studios on several occasions and according to Mr. Parker, tried to get him to "donate" to a "Kenpo Temple". I have spoken to Richard "Huk" Planas, who stated that "He wasn't impressed" and Steve Hearring, who stated that Mitose struck him with a "Nerve Strike" that Steve remembers to this day! This was from personal conversations with both men at different times.

I am well aware of Mr. Parker's opinion of Mitose and how He [mitose] tried to con him out of money. Mr. Parker also never trained with Mitose in Hawaii at any time in his trainiong. He trained with Prof. Chow and individuals like Adriano Emperado, who was his "senior" in Chow's Class at that time. However, Chow had indeed learned from Mitose and was awarded his Black Belt from Thomas Young and Mitose. Please remember Doc, the time frame and the limited ammount of Martial Arts that were available at that time. I'm reminded of the old adage "In the land of dwarfs, the midget is king!". If you are teaching people with no prior martial arts experience, and you have some [although perhaps limited] then you are top man on the totem pole. the form he taught was "naihanchin" and most of his book was a plagarized attempt from a karate text from a man named mutsu, including the photos of Mutsu breaking tiles and Motobu's pic.

Mitose covered his numerous "religious" guises by stating the phrase "when i'm among christians, i'm a christian, when i'm among buddhists, i'm a buddhist." allegedly, he was a buddhist originally and later became a protestant [sp] minister.

I have seen the details of the court transcript and other past charge/rap sheets on Mitose so I can vouch for his "dubious" past.

If I am wrong regarding you addressing me regarding this you have my apologies but I am stating facts as I know them regarding the lineage of the kenpo systems/styles.

I hope that i was of some service,
KENPOJOE
:::getting off my soapbox:soapbox:
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/
Joe you make some good points as do I, but this is always going to be bone of contention for some. All I can say for sure is Parker always stated he wasn't in his lineage and I know for a certainty he wasn't in mine, soooooooo can I get a Pepsi?:asian:

Originally posted by Doc
Hell are you kidding? My place. And bring a couple of Pepsi's.:)
Pepsi! none of that, only seven-up. I can deal with the sugar but not the caffein and the coloring.
Hey, It is great to have respects for one another even though we do not agree on small details. I wish the youngters could learn from this.

respectfully,

Originally posted by kenmpoka
Pepsi! none of that, only seven-up. I can deal with the sugar but not the caffein and the coloring.
Hey, It is great to have respects for one another even though we do not agree on small details. I wish the youngters could learn from this.

respectfully,

Are you kidding? You are an optimist aren't you?

Hell, I agree with you more than I did my Mom & Dad. Can't sweat the small stuff. Too much really serious stuff to deal with.:asian:

Originally posted by Doc
Joe you make some good points as do I, but this is always going to be bone of contention for some. All I can say for sure is Parker always stated he wasn't in his lineage and I know for a certainty he wasn't in mine, soooooooo can I get a Pepsi?:asian:

I'm into diet coke, so if not that, how about 2 tickets to the super bowl, i know you got connections with Al Davis!;)

Originally posted by RCastillo
I'm into diet coke,

Code red mountain dew for me.

My hat is off to all who kept this conversation civil. Been really interesting reading.

Thanks to all...

Dan

Originally posted by Sigung86
My hat is off to all who kept this conversation civil. Been really interesting reading. Thanks to all...Dan


Of Course!!!!!! What'd ya think............... you were on the OTHER FORUM!!!!!!!:rofl:

Besides...... everyone here has lost thier marbles.

:eek:

Originally posted by Sigung86
My hat is off to all who kept this conversation civil. Been really interesting reading.

Thanks to all...

Dan
AWWWW SHADUUUUUUUUUUUUUPPP!!!!!!!!!

WAIT! I apologize. I was having a kenponet flashback.

Sorry to take us away from creed and lineage discussions, but I have a question that I'm hoping one of you guys can answer.

Actually, it's more than 1.

At the end of the full salutation, when you complete the "pray for forgiveness" part, and your hands then go up and out to your sides to slap your hips, I was taught this as being the heart part of the universal symbol, and symbolising 'brotherly love for our fellow man' and that the hands were in 'tigerclaws slashing' to show that the love wasn't given easy.
The question is have any of you heard or even seen this in print?

My second question would be, why did Mr. Tatum change the salute at the end and put in what I think he calls 'kissing circles'? I could be wrong about the terminology from Mr. Tatum..



:confused:
--Dave

Originally posted by D.Cobb
[B]Sorry to take us away from creed and lineage discussions, but I have a question that I'm hoping one of you guys can answer.

Actually, it's more than 1.

At the end of the full salutation, when you complete the "pray for forgiveness" part, and your hands then go up and out to your sides to slap your hips, I was taught this as being the heart part of the universal symbol, and symbolising 'brotherly love for our fellow man' and that the hands were in 'tigerclaws slashing' to show that the love wasn't given easy.
The question is have any of you heard or even seen this in print?


I have heard that interpretation as well as many others, but none of them were written down to my knowledge by Mr. Parker.


My second question would be, why did Mr. Tatum change the salute at the end and put in what I think he calls 'kissing circles'? I could be wrong about the terminology from Mr. Tatum..


For that you would have to ask Larry, as it would only be appropriate to ask him his reasons for what he has done.

The American Kenpo Salutation is a combination of the "old and the new.” The initial part of our salute honors the originators of the art, the Chinese. Prior to the establishment of what was called "Shao-lin," an open left hand resting on a clenched right fist was used as a salutation or salute just before the commencement of a set or form. There were several meanings to this gesture:

(1) Respect to the originator of the particular system, including all who had studied before him, with him, and presently study under him. (2) Respect to those who would observe the movements. (3) Respect to both scholars and warriors who were practitioners alike, since the left hand (open) of this salutation represented the scholar and the right hand (clenched), the man who actually executed the science.

During the period of the Shao-lin in the Ch'ing Dynasty, the meaning of the gesture changed when two additional movements were added. The change was that the left hand represented the sun, the right hand the moon. With this change, the combination of sun and moon represented the Chinese character Ming, thus meaning "revolutionary defenders for the cause of the Ming restoration." The two additional movements that were added to the sun and the moon were formed by placing the back of the hands together with both palms out. The fingers at this point were in a claw-like-fashion and raised to the chest and heart. This gesture meant,

"We are against foreign invasion and our hearts are for China." The last movement was to clench both hands and draw them to the sides of the waist. This pulling gesture meant, "By pulling and working together we can take our country back." The Hungs, who were secret triad societies in China, perpetuated these movements. In short, "Scholar and warrior, united together, back to back, pulling together, to defend against the foreign intruders.”

The execution of this can be seen in and is explained in the book, "Ed Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate."

The first part of the salutation was preserved in recognition and respect to the traditions set forth by the Chinese. The concluding portion of the salutation was added to tie in the heritage of the "old" with the logic of the "new" and innovative fighting science. There is a misconception this came from Mitose. These movements have always existed in one form or another in the Chinese, and were not new. Although Mitose did come to use the hand gestures, they were usually used independent of each other, and not in the inclusive pattern those of American kenpo are familiar with.

The second part of the salutation interprets as an explanation of the original Kenpo Creed by Ed Parker that does not use the word "karate" which was inadvertently recited later.

I come to you with empty hands; (I am friendly and unarmed)

I have no weapons. (Both hands are place together as they form the shape of a triangle.)

I now cover my weapon, my fist which is my treasure, for I do not wish to use it. (Your left open hand is used to conceal your right clenched fist.)

Now that I am being forced to use my weapon, to momentarily become an animal, I pray for forgiveness for what I may do. (Both hands are placed together as if praying.)

The salutation ends by outwardly circling the clawing hands and arms in an outward clawing movement coming to attention. (Warding away all evil in my presence and letting nothing deter me from my goal and moral convictions)

The reasons for the Scholar/Warrior analogy are important. Within the Chinese Culture there was a very strong caste system in place. The truly educated were privileged and considered too "valuable" to fight in wars and conflict once they reached a certain status. Therefore it was the "warrior" who fought but he was directed by the "scholar" in the ways of Martial Science. That is, the warrior didn't always understand the methods of his fighting, all he knew was that it "worked." The scholars devised the methods and manner of the execution of the training and the implementation of the "fighting sciences," while the "warriors" went forth and performed as instructed.

The combination of the "warrior and scholar" in a singular person was rare once the "warrior" graduated to "scholar" status. Not because the scholar couldn't fight, (after all they had first hand knowledge,) but simply because the knowledge was so valuable, the chance could not be taken that they would be killed or injured in battle or conflict. So it is today. The truly scholarly teacher directs his students in the methods that will cause them to be successful, however because it is a true science, the student may not always understand "why" things work, only that they do. Some students will come to understand more than others based on simple things as intellect and personal conviction and length of study. The scholar and warrior insure the co-existence of each other. The warrior would not exist without the directions of the scholar, and without the warrior to train, the scholar would have no purpose.

Just seeing if my logo works at the bottom.

Thanks,
Josh

Originally posted by Doc
I have heard that interpretation as well as many others, but none of them were written down to my knowledge by Mr. Parker.



For that you would have to ask Larry, as it would only be appropriate to ask him his reasons for what he has done.

The American Kenpo Salutation is a combination of the "old and the new.” The initial part of our salute honors the originators of the art, the Chinese. Prior to the establishment of what was called "Shao-lin," an open left hand resting on a clenched right fist was used as a salutation or salute just before the commencement of a set or form. There were several meanings to this gesture:

(1) Respect to the originator of the particular system, including all who had studied before him, with him, and presently study under him. (2) Respect to those who would observe the movements. (3) Respect to both scholars and warriors who were practitioners alike, since the left hand (open) of this salutation represented the scholar and the right hand (clenched), the man who actually executed the science.

During the period of the Shao-lin in the Ch'ing Dynasty, the meaning of the gesture changed when two additional movements were added. The change was that the left hand represented the sun, the right hand the moon. With this change, the combination of sun and moon represented the Chinese character Ming, thus meaning "revolutionary defenders for the cause of the Ming restoration." The two additional movements that were added to the sun and the moon were formed by placing the back of the hands together with both palms out. The fingers at this point were in a claw-like-fashion and raised to the chest and heart. This gesture meant,

"We are against foreign invasion and our hearts are for China." The last movement was to clench both hands and draw them to the sides of the waist. This pulling gesture meant, "By pulling and working together we can take our country back." The Hungs, who were secret triad societies in China, perpetuated these movements. In short, "Scholar and warrior, united together, back to back, pulling together, to defend against the foreign intruders.”

The execution of this can be seen in and is explained in the book, "Ed Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate."

The first part of the salutation was preserved in recognition and respect to the traditions set forth by the Chinese. The concluding portion of the salutation was added to tie in the heritage of the "old" with the logic of the "new" and innovative fighting science. There is a misconception this came from Mitose. These movements have always existed in one form or another in the Chinese, and were not new. Although Mitose did come to use the hand gestures, they were usually used independent of each other, and not in the inclusive pattern those of American kenpo are familiar with.

The second part of the salutation interprets as an explanation of the original Kenpo Creed by Ed Parker that does not use the word "karate" which was inadvertently recited later.

I come to you with empty hands; (I am friendly and unarmed)

I have no weapons. (Both hands are place together as they form the shape of a triangle.)

I now cover my weapon, my fist which is my treasure, for I do not wish to use it. (Your left open hand is used to conceal your right clenched fist.)

Now that I am being forced to use my weapon, to momentarily become an animal, I pray for forgiveness for what I may do. (Both hands are placed together as if praying.)

The salutation ends by outwardly circling the clawing hands and arms in an outward clawing movement coming to attention. (Warding away all evil in my presence and letting nothing deter me from my goal and moral convictions)

The reasons for the Scholar/Warrior analogy are important. Within the Chinese Culture there was a very strong caste system in place. The truly educated were privileged and considered too "valuable" to fight in wars and conflict once they reached a certain status. Therefore it was the "warrior" who fought but he was directed by the "scholar" in the ways of Martial Science. That is, the warrior didn't always understand the methods of his fighting, all he knew was that it "worked." The scholars devised the methods and manner of the execution of the training and the implementation of the "fighting sciences," while the "warriors" went forth and performed as instructed.

The combination of the "warrior and scholar" in a singular person was rare once the "warrior" graduated to "scholar" status. Not because the scholar couldn't fight, (after all they had first hand knowledge,) but simply because the knowledge was so valuable, the chance could not be taken that they would be killed or injured in battle or conflict. So it is today. The truly scholarly teacher directs his students in the methods that will cause them to be successful, however because it is a true science, the student may not always understand "why" things work, only that they do. Some students will come to understand more than others based on simple things as intellect and personal conviction and length of study. The scholar and warrior insure the co-existence of each other. The warrior would not exist without the directions of the scholar, and without the warrior to train, the scholar would have no purpose.

Thank you sir, that would have to be the most in depth and informative explanation I have ever seen or heard with regards to the salutation.

In regards to asking "Larry", could one of you senior guys ask and relay, or would it be possible to get him on here in person?
Failing that, would you have a mailing address, email or otherwise, for him?

--Dave

:asian:

I'd recommend calling and asking Mr. Tatum--studio number's 626/796-4029--or e-mailing via the website.

But what changes in the salutation? Ain't seen any, and I've been there ten years.

I suspect the confusion's coming out of the Long 6 tapes...with Long Form 4, 5, 6 and beyond, the salutation doesn't change but the form's application of it does. Up through Long 3, you sign for the form, do the salutation, and work out of a meditating horse stance. But with Long 4, the kata begins (well, it actually starts with the salutation, but you get my point) from an attention stance, immediately after the horse stance gets closed. With Long 5, the form "begins," right from the "praying hands," part of the salutation. Some of the point, apparently, is to remind us that we don't always get, "ready, steady, go," before the rumble starts.

With Long 6, you make those, "kissing circles," and start into, "Glancing Lance," the first named technique, right from an attention stance. It's done to state a very basic theme of the form, among other things. There's a good clear explanation of the Long 6 tape...

And, I should add, that all the forms still end with the same old salutation.

Is my history a little rusty, or didn't Mitose teach Chow, who taught Parker?

Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua
Is my history a little rusty, or didn't Mitose teach Chow, who taught Parker?

The following is a direct quote from the "Budo International" magazine, May 2002.........

The article is titled "Hawaiian Kenpo". and discusses a few different viewpoints concerning the relationship between Mitose and Chow. The following seems pertinent to your question.

"Although William K.S. Chow was an expert in Ch'uan Fa, when he met James M. Mitose in 1942, he was grateful for the opportunity to increase his knowledge of the martial arts.
They formed "Self-Defense Club" together, and Chow and the rest of the instructors selected Mitose to be the head of the club. Mitose's family system was called Kempo Jiu Jitsu. Together with Thomas S. Young, the auxiliary instructor who had a solid base in Kung-ugh, Chow and Mitose exchanged ideas and created techniques for three years. Around 1946 the data varies depending on its source but it seems that Mitose awarded Chow the black belt in Kempo Jiu Jitsu. Soon after Chow and Mitose separated, although they never stopped being good friends. They learnt a lot from one another and they visited each others schoolsuntil Mitose left Honolulu in 1953.
When Chow left the "Self-Defense Club" he called his system Kenpo Chinese Karate, and he changed its pronunciation to Kenpo (with "n") to differentiate its style from that of Mitose."

I hope this helps.

--Dave


:asian: