Racist Cop or Combative Professor?

[Archangel M]

I just read this over at a blog that I like:

http://pepperspray.me/



Everyone is talking about the black Ivy League professor who was arrested for disorderly conduct. Was it racism? Racial profiling of a black man by the police? If your conclusion is yes, you’ve probably made up your mind before examining the facts.

The facts: On July 16, 2009 at approximately 12:44 pm, Professor Henry Louis "Skip" Gates Jr returned home from an overseas trip. He had trouble opening the door to his house. His taxi driver–another black man–helped him force the door open. This prompted a white passerby to call the police and report a break in.

By the time Cambridge Police responded to the call, the good professor was already inside his house. Sergeant James Crowley made contact with Gates. Gates was asked to step outside. What happened next depends on who you believe.

Those siding with the professor say that he was man in his castle, and the police had no reason, or right, to harass him. They go as far as to say that the only reason he was questioned was because he is black. Were he a white man, the police would have simply left him alone and continued patrol. They’ll even tell you that the white passerby was racist for calling the police.

On the other hand, those siding with the cops say that the professor could have avoided the arrest altogether if he simply remained calm and cooperated with the police. The cops were investigating a crime in progress. Why didn’t he just go along with the program?

After shouting and screaming at the police outside of his house, Gates was arrested and booked for disorderly conduct. He was released after posting $40 bail. On July 21st, the charge against Gates was dropped.
Was there racial profiling going on? Did the cops "harass" the good professor based on his skin tone? I dare say no.

Officers responded to a burglary in progress. I don’t know how they do things in Cambridge, but it can’t be too different from the way I was trained. When investigating a burglary in progress, any occupant in the dwelling will be asked to step out, followed by a building search. So yes, the police had the right–and responsibility–to be there.

Is Sgt Crowley a racist? I can’t speak to that, since I don’t know the man. But based on existing information–even statements from the good professor himself–I’ll say that there aren’t enough facts to make it reasonable to believe that the sergeant’s actions constituted an act of racism.

A better question: Was the arrest legal? If so, was it a good arrest?
Based on the sergeant’s report, the arrest was legal. Crowley articulated the elements of the crime, and made his arrest based on law. But that doesn’t mean it was a good arrest.

Cops in the field have a lot of discretion. There is a time and place to arrest for disorderly conduct, or disturbing the peace. For more on this check out this post by Pete Moskos. Unless there’s something more to a grumpy old guy (with a limp and cane) other than a lot of trash talking, you’re wasting your time. Crowley’s report did not convince me that a disorderly conduct arrest was in order here.

Having said that, it appears to me that the good professor brought this whole thing upon himself. It had nothing to do with police racism, and everything to do with his arrogant, misguided belief that the police had no right to be in his home. His hostile and combative tone got him into those handcuffs.

My two pennies in the bucket: perhaps the better course of action for the police would have been to unhook the good professor once he calmed down. Sometimes that little misdemeanor arrest ain’t worth the headache and drama.


I have to agree with the author. To the people saying "the cops wouldnt have even shown up if it was a white guy.." I call ********! If a bypasser called my PD saying that someone was forcing a door on a residence that person would be stopped and ID'd BLACK or WHITE...exactly as this guy was. To say a white guy would have been driven by is a load of crap. This "professor" apparently had already determined that the only reason that this officer was investigating a break-in at his home was because of his race...while I wasnt there I can almost see the scene already.

Officer: Stop what you are doing and show me some ID.

Prof: I live here!

Officer: ID please sir

Prof: (while handing over ID) THIS IS ********! WHY ARE YOU HASSLEING ME! THE ONLY REASON YOU ARE BOTHERING ME IS BECAUSE IM BLACK! YOU ARE A RACIST!

Officer: Sir please keep it down or you could be charged with disorderly conduct.

Prof: OH NOW YOU ARE THREATENING ME?? WHATS YOUR NAME AND BADGE NUMBER? THIS IS ****ING ********!!! yadda..yadda..yadda...

Officer: You are under arrest.

I have seen this drama played out time and time again..look Im not nieve enough to think that "driving while black" and the ilk isnt happening out there in some cities and jurisdictions, but its been my anecdotal experience that the accusation is thrown without cause far too often. If I had a nickle for every time I had to listen to this BS when I was just doing my job (and would have done the exact same regardless of race) Id be a welthy man.

Like I said I dont know the details here and perhaps this cop was a cocky ass who pushed this guys buttons for no good reason...could be. But its been my experience that in these situations if the subject would have just said "thanks for looking out for my property officer..Im the homeowner and Im locked out...heres my ID" then all would be well. When you start out the contact with racist accusations against the cop what good is going to come of that?!? You dont combat the legit cases of racism by accusing every cop you come across.....what would this professor like the cops to do if there was some black guy legitimately breaking into his house? Just drive by...assume that it was the homeowner?

I also agree with the author. I dont think this was racist...I think the arrest was legitimate by the letter of the law...I think the decision to arrest was probably a bad discretion call.

[Omar B]

That article leaves out the fact that he showed them 2 forms of ID before he was arrested, his drivers license and college ID. That should be the end of it, "Sorry about the mistake, have a nice evening." He got arrested in his own home after presenting ID, that's wrong.

Minutes later, a Cambridge police sergeant appeared at his front door, saying he was responding to a report of a suspected break-in, Gates’s statement said. Gates showed his Harvard identification and driver’s license and asked the policeman for his name and badge number, Ogletree said. The sergeant walked away without answering, the statement said. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=anupUHzw.F0Y

The officer indicated that he was responding to a 911 call about a breaking and entering in progress at this address. Professor Gates informed the officer that he lived there and was a faculty member at Harvard University. The officer then asked Professor Gates whether he could prove that he lived there and taught at Harvard. Professor Gates said that he could, and turned to walk into his kitchen, where he had left his wallet. The officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his Harvard University identification and his valid Massachusetts driver’s license to the officer. Both include Professor Gates’ photograph, and the license includes his address. http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr

[Archangel M]

You are only reading the victims statement...of course its going to support his side.

BTW: The officer was right in going in...he doesnt know if this is the resident or the burglar. Some PD's will make you step-out..check the house..then ID yourself.

The rest of the story is that Gates began a tirade in the house and then followed the officer OUT OF THE HOUSE, yelling and screaming..where he was arrested.


Like I said though. While the officer is human..was probably pissed at the accusations..and "within the letter of the law"...the arrest was probably not a good idea.

[Omar B]

Whatever the sequence of events were no crime was committed and the home owner got arrested for forcing his own door. Charges were dropped so I guess the cops see it that way too.

[Archangel M]

He wasnt charged for the burglary/door forcing..he was charged for disorderly conduct for his tirade outside his house. Thats the charge that was dropped.

[Omar B]

Whatever you say man, I'm with the Prof on this one. Yeah I'm gonna get loud and disorderly after showing ID.

[Carol]

Oh please. Professor Gates is making it sound like he's the only black man adrift in a sea of bigoted white snobs that want to do nothing better than lay the hammer down on a brother. And perhaps folks that think Cambridge = Harvard University and nothing else are believing it.

The city of Cambridge is very urban and very diverse. There are many people from many different ethnic backgrounds and socioeconomic groups. Like any urban environment, its also got its issues with poverty, drugs, and crime, but for the most part the Cantabrigian people are good folks that look out for one another.

I think the officer may have made a bad judgment call. I don't think he was racist and I certainly don't think the Cambridge Police deserve to be given a black eye by our President.

[Archangel M]

Whatever you say man, I'm with the Prof on this one. Yeah I'm gonna get loud and disorderly after showing ID.

Eh..Its not a matter of "whatever you say"..its a fact. Gates was charged with disorderly conduct.

If a cop came to my house and DIDNT ask for ID... assuming I was telling the truth..Id be pissed and complaining "that cop came here on a call of someone breaking in and left just because I told him I lived here...what if it really was a burglary?"

BTW: I remember my deparment chasing some bad guys after a robbery and finding a door open on a house. The guy inside said he lived there and was shirtless. After being ID'd without warrants the police left. Turned out it was a BG who broke in, took off his clothes and acted like the owner. We didnt discover the truth till the real owner came home. Fortunately he gave the officer a real drivers license at the time and was picked up on a warrant later.

[Carol]

I just read this over at a blog that I like:

http://pepperspray.me/



I love that URL.

I want to register http://dont-tase.me/bro :lol2:

[punisher73]

Whatever you say man, I'm with the Prof on this one. Yeah I'm gonna get loud and disorderly after showing ID.


For what? There is a sequence of events that have to be followed any time an officer is dispatched to a crime. Many department policies include running every person through LEIN for information etc.


Do you REALLY buy his story that BOTH sides (police and him) had this polite discussion (as told by his story) and then he is suddenly put in handcuffs? Come on now...simple logic tells you that for the police to arrest you for disorderly conduct there was something else to it.

[celtic_crippler]

This ain't rocket science.

Regardless of race, one should be reassured, comforted, and thankful to know that they police will quickly show up to your house at the report of a break in. That's no cause for anger, quite the opposite.

If it was a real break in and they didn't follow procedure then the owner would have complained about that.

If the police show up, comply. If you did nothing wrong then that's the end of it.

If the professor did not go on a tirade and did not show his butt, then the cops are in the wrong. If he did, then he brought it on himself and should learn the lesson that sometimes you just need to STFU.

[MJS]

I too, call ******** on those saying the cops were racist. Its sooo typical to play that card in cases like this, its disgusting. White, black, green or yellow, I've taken countless burg. in progress calls, with the suspects of various races, and they're taken care of the same way.

Until the cops figure out who's who, yes, they have every damn right to detain everyone, until they sort things out. The cops are not mind readers, so for anyone to say that the Prof. was arrested for forcing his own door, let me ask this...how the hell did they know at the time? Would you assume that it was the home owner and not stop and ask for ID? Please, lets have a dicussion with some common sense here please. In cases like this, its perfectly normal for them to check the inside and outside of the house to make sure that nothing is wrong. Theres also nothing wrong with ID'ing all parties there.

And I echo what the article said....if this Prof. instead of acting like an ass, just cooperated, and didn't get all huffy, macho and tough, maybe, just maybe, this incident would've been over pretty quick. But instead, he followed the typical tough guy behavior that some show when dealing with the cops.

Of course, I'm sure if this were a burg in progress, and the Prof came home and found his stuff gone, hmm...lets see, who would've been the first person he called? Oh yeah, the cops.

This guy was an *******, plain and simple. Oh and BTW...if you're going to get loud and disorderly after showing ID, you're probably gonna find yourself cuffed and in the back of the car for interferring with the investigation.

[jks9199]

First -- I agree with Archangel. It was a legal arrest -- but it wasn't a wise arrest. (Which is probably why he was de-arrested at the station.)

Second -- Professor Gates was arrested for disorderly conduct not breaking into his own house. His conduct in dealing with Sgt. Crowley who was investigating a report of black men breaking into a house is what led to the arrest.

Third -- I suspect that there were communication failures on both sides.

I understand a homeowner, probably tired after a long flight, being upset when the cops are at his door, questioning whether he lives there. Especially if he's a black guy in a very much white neighborhood AND just came back from China. I rather suspect at various points in his trip, possibly as early as recently as the customs line or even the cab stand at the airport, he was the victim of racist acts. (Yes, there are racist cops. And cab drivers. And university professors.)

And I understand the cop, who's just trying to do his job and make sure that he really is the homeowner AND that everything really is OK, getting fed up quick with the irate guy yelling at him and making accusations. (Yes, having been there & done that, I'm pretty confident that I have a decent idea what was being said.) When the guy doesn't calm down -- the cop applies the tool he has to solve the solution: arrest. Again -- not a particularly wise choice, but then again, it's not particularly wise to argue with the cop.

Let's look at it for a moment from the cop's viewpoint. His dispatch probably went something like "Respond to <Gate's address>; complainant reports seeing two black males trying to force open the door." You get there, and knock, and a black guy comes to the door. "Is this the suspect? Is it the homeowner with a suspect behind him telling him to get rid of the cops?" goes through your mind. You ask him to step out (if it's a home invasion situation, get him out & he might tell you). He's not exactly cooperative, but gives you ID. YOU STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON INSIDE THE HOUSE. And he's not acting "normal" for a homeowner in that situation. And he won't calm down...

In my experience, the typical behavior in a case like that is some embarrassment, coupled with at least a grudging appreciation that the cops are making sure everything is OK. Usually, when the race card gets dropped -- the person dropping it is trying to distract me or keep me from doing my job.

Yeah, with the wonders of 20/20 hindsight and in the ease and comfort of my home, it's easy to say that Sgt. Crowley should have walked away, and let Prof. Gates calm down when they left. But he didn't know that then; he just knew that Prof. Gates was going nuts...

Like I said; communication failures on both sides.

And Prof. Gates is capitalizing on that. Kinda convenient how much press coverage he's had out of this, huh?

I'll tell you right now, my cynical inner voice is telling me that there are probably guys in suits with small gold badges whose motto is "Fidelity. Bravery. Integrity" walking around Cambridge, talking to everyone who'll talk, looking for evidence that Sgt. Crowley (and maybe the whole PD) is a racist. And that, when the results of that investigation are forwarded to an Assistant United States Attorney, the writing on the wall will be to find SOMETHING, unless that AUSA wants to move into the private sector post-haste.

[crushing]

I assume the Sgt. Crowley isn't the officer in the foreground.


http://shadmia.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/henry-louis-gates-5.jpg

[Rich Parsons]

Personally I think racism is a problem but when it is called like in the old story "wolf" it will be ignored the same way.

IN this article :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_disorderly



Obama 'stupidly' comment disappoints Mass. cop

NATICK, Mass. – A white police sergeant who arrested renowned black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. said Thursday he's disappointed President Barack Obama said officers acted "stupidly," despite acknowledging he didn't know all the facts.

Sgt. James Crowley responded to Gates' home near Harvard University last week to investigate a report of a burglary and demanded Gates show him identification. Police say Gates at first refused and accused the officer of racism.

Gates was charged with disorderly conduct. The charge was dropped Tuesday, and Gates has since demanded an apology from Crowley.

...


Now if I refused I would be arrested for disordely conduct as well.


So my problem is that until the facts are known people should presume all are innocent, even the President of the United States of America should hold his comments until he has been breifed.

Personally I think the Professor and the current sitting President who the officer and the police department an apology.

[Joab]

As soon as the Professor showed his ID which had the address of the house he was in the incident should have ended. The officer should have handed the ID back and said "have a nice evening sir" and left.

[crushing]

As soon as the Professor showed his ID which had the address of the house he was in the incident should have ended. The officer should have handed the ID back and said "have a nice evening sir" and left.

I'm sure that's where the officers would have liked for it to end too.

Professor Gates was likely very agitated that he had to break in to his own house and embarrassed that his cab driver had to help him do so. I wouldn't be surprised if his door sustained some sort of damage that now needs repairs and on top that irritation and to add to the embarrassment, here come the cops and following them the neighbors to see what is going on. From sideshow, to carnival, to big freakin' media/political circus.

[CoryKS]

I'm thinking racist, combative professor. Reminds me of the Eddie Murphy skit about going to Texas looking for racism. "Yeah, that's my bag! What's the matter, a black man can't have a suitcase?"

Police got a report of a break-in. The investigating officer asks for proof of ID. Show him the ID and STFU. Gates can't even argue that it wasn't a break-in - it was. All he had to do was prove he lived there. Instead, he asked for name and badge number and got hostile. He escalated into something it didn't need to be and then cried racism when he got arrested for it.

Gates' behavior in this has been childish and emotionally-driven. I certainly hope he's not an accurate indication of the sort of "intellectual" that Harvard employs.

BTW: Do you suppose there's a potential burglar in Cambridge who's considering robbing Gates, with the assumption that the police won't dare investigate it?

[Omar B]

I hear all the arguments, I still say once his identity was established the cop should have said "Have a nice day" and left. The Prof did get agitated and loud, but he had already proven ID, what was the cop still doing there? I would be pissed if after proving that I was not breaking into my own house to the cop he was not still sniffing around.

[celtic_crippler]

I hear all the arguments, I still say once his identity was established the cop should have said "Have a nice day" and left. The Prof did get agitated and loud, but he had already proven ID, what was the cop still doing there? I would be pissed if after proving that I was not breaking into my own house to the cop he was not still sniffing around.

From what I understand Gates continued to confront the officers. If he'd been polite, showed his ID immediately, thanked the officers for their quick response and left it at that...no story, but he didn't. He had to show his butt.

There's a reason I'm not a cop...they don't get paid enough for the crap they have to deal with.

[Omar B]

It's not like they've never been told off before. It's his house, leave, it's that simple. I know cops have a tough time, my best friend's dad is a NYPD detective, I've heard all the stories. When it was established that there was no crime move on.

[CoryKS]

It seems to me that in this case, the assumption of poor treatment by the police due to racism became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Gates framed this as a racial issue from the beginning and responded accordingly, growing angry and indignant until the officer arrested him. Whereas if he had acknowledged the circumstances and focused on establishing his identity, this would have been over quickly.

I read elsewhere that when the officer took him away, he asked Gates if he wanted the officer to lock the house. Gates replied that the door was unlockable due to a previous burglary. So you'd think the guy would have been more receptive to police efforts to prevent another one.

Smoking gun has the police report (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html).

[punisher73]

It's not like they've never been told off before. It's his house, leave, it's that simple. I know cops have a tough time, my best friend's dad is a NYPD detective, I've heard all the stories. When it was established that there was no crime move on.


You seem to be missing a key point. When the police first arrived they DID ask Gates for ID and to step outside to confirm his id. Gates did not comply with what they asked for at first and by his own admission was on the phone while the officer was asking him to step outside. It was only after this that Gates went to retrieve his ID.

Many of the people defending Gates read it like he came to the door and then immediately produced ID and then was harassed by the police. That wasn't the case, even by Gates own statement (through his lawyer). Then I see the complaints that the police had no business being there in the first place and were just supposed to leave. Ummmm, someone calls 9-1-1 and we have to look into that until we can determine that everyone and everything is safe.

I think BOTH parties involved overreacted in this situation. I don't think it had anything to do with race, but everything to do with a percieved lack of respect by both. Too bad the officer didn't have a lapel mike on him like many departments do. It would answer all the questions for sure.


Black students and professors at Harvard have complained for years about racial profiling by Cambridge and campus police. Harvard commissioned an independent committee last year to examine the university's race relations after campus police confronted a young black man who was using tools to remove a bike lock. The man worked at Harvard and owned the bike.

Here is something from another news article trying to tie this incident to racism in general in that PD/area. Again, do you REALLY think it's the police or is it just people feeling thinking that police can't come up and investigate a situation without it being profiling. As a police officer, if I was on a college campus where there are ALOT of bike thefts each year and I see somebody trying to get a bike lock off using tools and not a key I am going to confront that person and determine ownership and what is going on. It has nothing to do with the person being white/black or any other color under the rainbow.

[Omar B]

I hear what you are saying man, but identity was established so the cop should have left. Combative, before, after, during, he didn't hit anybody, he was pissed and got loud at his own place.

[blindsage]

I'm truly amazed at the way people comment on situations like this. There's only two sides and two sources on this: the officer's as stated in the (previously posted) police report, and Professor Gates as posted here (http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr) and here (http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks). These are the only sources we have, those and our assumptions based on our beliefs and experiences with police officers and race. A lot of people keep talkin about how belligerent Professor Gates became, he denies this, so the only way to be 'convinced' this is what happened is by accepting the unvarnished 'truth' of the officer's statement. That's not really useful. Sure those that defend Gates are using the victim statement to back up what he says, but those defending the cop are just using the police report to back up what he says. Why is one inherently more credible than the other?

[Carol]

Isn't anyone noticing the charges against Professor Gates were dropped?

It doesn't matter whether you are in your own home or not. When you make a ruckus to the point where it can bother other people (the denser the population, the higher the risk) you run the risk for disorderly conduct.

Why isn't President Obama coming to the aid of the woman that was arrested by the Cambridge PD because she flipped out at a Starbucks over the amount of foam in her latte (http://breeohnnah.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/woman-arrested-in-a-starbucks-in-cambridge-ma-for-disorderly-conduct-when-she-complained-about-the-amount-of-foam-in-her-latte/)?

[Rich Parsons]

I'm truly amazed at the way people comment on situations like this. There's only two sides and two sources on this: the officer's as stated in the (previously posted) police report, and Professor Gates as posted here (http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr) and here (http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks). These are the only sources we have, those and our assumptions based on our beliefs and experiences with police officers and race. A lot of people keep talkin about how belligerent Professor Gates became, he denies this, so the only way to be 'convinced' this is what happened is by accepting the unvarnished 'truth' of the officer's statement. That's not really useful. Sure those that defend Gates are using the victim statement to back up what he says, but those defending the cop are just using the police report to back up what he says. Why is one inherently more credible than the other?


While I agree with your comments about two sides and not being there I ask you why did the President of the United States of America express his opinion as Stupidly arressted? Did he wait for all the data?

If our leader can jump to conclusion then why cannot everyone else?

Oh wait, Our Leader is a minority and by calling him on something might be called racism, even if the call is racism in itself?

While everyone makes mistakes those involved in the case originally and our politcal leader as well, I believe we need another nationwide press conference on prime time TV with an apology from the President himself over ASSUMING, the guilt of the officer.

[CoryKS]

I'm truly amazed at the way people comment on situations like this. There's only two sides and two sources on this: the officer's as stated in the (previously posted) police report, and Professor Gates as posted here (http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr) and here (http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks). These are the only sources we have, those and our assumptions based on our beliefs and experiences with police officers and race. A lot of people keep talkin about how belligerent Professor Gates became, he denies this, so the only way to be 'convinced' this is what happened is by accepting the unvarnished 'truth' of the officer's statement. That's not really useful. Sure those that defend Gates are using the victim statement to back up what he says, but those defending the cop are just using the police report to back up what he says. Why is one inherently more credible than the other?

Because the police report makes linear sense. If we were to accept Gates' story, we have to accept that the officer was shown ID, found it acceptable, left the house, and then inexplicably arrested Gates when he stepped out of the house. Why didn't he arrest him inside? The police report mentions that a sizable crowd had gathered outside, so it shouldn't be difficult to get corroboration if that were true.

I like how Gates managed to plug his new documentary in both accounts, though. Never let a crisis go to waste. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[blindsage]

While I agree with your comments about two sides and not being there I ask you why did the President of the United States of America express his opinion as Stupidly arressted? Did he wait for all the data?

If our leader can jump to conclusion then why cannot everyone else?
I agree. I don't understand why the President made the statement he did. But how does him jumping to a conclusion excuse anyone else?


Oh wait, Our Leader is a minority and by calling him on something might be called racism, even if the call is racism in itself?
Do you have an oppression complex? Every criticism of anyone who is a minority is called racist. A lot of things are racist that many people refuse to recognize and educate themselves on and so get uptight when called on their ignorance.


While everyone makes mistakes those involved in the case originally and our politcal leader as well, I believe we need another nationwide press conference on prime time TV with an apology from the President himself over ASSUMING, the guilt of the officer.
I wouldn't have a problem with that.

[blindsage]

Because the police report makes linear sense. If we were to accept Gates' story, we have to accept that the officer was shown ID, found it acceptable, left the house, and then inexplicably arrested Gates when he stepped out of the house. Why didn't he arrest him inside? The police report mentions that a sizable crowd had gathered outside, so it shouldn't be difficult to get corroboration if that were true.

I like how Gates managed to plug his new documentary in both accounts, though. Never let a crisis go to waste. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif
The police report makes more linear sense if you assume the officer was just innocent and acting in complete good faith. If we were to accept Gates' story the officer would have to account for a lot of things that don't seem kosher. But in either case what you saying is that the officer's report seems more logical to you as it stands, and therefore you can make all kinds of assumptions about Gates'. The logic still isn't holding up.

[CoryKS]

The police report makes more linear sense if you assume the officer was just innocent and acting in complete good faith. If we were to accept Gates' story the officer would have to account for a lot of things that don't seem kosher. But in either case what you saying is that the officer's report seems more logical to you as it stands, and therefore you can make all kinds of assumptions about Gates'. The logic still isn't holding up.

Whatever, man. Like I said, either there were witnesses outside or there weren't. In any case, the charges got dropped so we probably won't hear from them. The fact that Gates is still crying like a little ***** about this tends to support the police account, IMO. But I'm not a juror on the trial which won't happen, so it doesn't matter what I think.

Interesting (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99KBEAO1&show_article=1).

[Omar B]

The police report mentions that a sizable crowd had gathered outside, so it shouldn't be difficult to get corroboration if that were true.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

But was the crowd caused by Gates or by the police cruiser presumably speeding through a residential area to a "crime scene" sirens blaring? I think people would have showed up wither way.

[Carol]

But was the crowd caused by Gates or by the police cruiser presumably speeding through a residential area to a "crime scene" sirens blaring? I think people would have showed up wither way.

Ware street in Cambridge is not a residential area. Its not possible for anyone (police or otherwise) to speed through Harvard Square.

[CoryKS]

But was the crowd caused by Gates or by the police cruiser presumably speeding through a residential area to a "crime scene" sirens blaring? I think people would have showed up wither way.

You'd have to ask them. Which nobody will, now that the governor has apologized to Gates and the press has moved on to investigating Crowley's racial credentials.

[crushing]

Some more information about the officer that arrested Gates for disorderly conduct:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_disorderly

The article ends with the following:



Harvard commissioned an independent committee last year to examine the university's race relations after campus police confronted a young black man who was using tools to remove a bike lock. The man worked at Harvard and owned the bike.


Isn't it a good idea for officers to question people that are breaking in to things, regardless of race, creed, gender, etc.? If not just to find out if the person doing the breaking and entering is the lawful owner?

These things remind me of a Chris Rock video:
Warning!!!! Contains Profanity and Acted Violence

uj0mtxXEGE8

[crushing]

But was the crowd caused by Gates or by the police cruiser presumably speeding through a residential area to a "crime scene" sirens blaring? I think people would have showed up wither way.

Were those descriptions in the straw man report?

[Omar B]

Ware street in Cambridge is not a residential area. Its not possible for anyone (police or otherwise) to speed through Harvard Square.

Slow intersection huh. More time for more people on a busier street to hear and see the police car and siren and wonder over. So maybe this commotion and crowd gathering was in large part there for the officer's presence. I know when there's a siren in NY people gather, not a good habit but people do.

[Rich Parsons]

From:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_disorderly




Cop who arrested black scholar is profiling expert

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. – The white police sergeant criticized by President Barack Obama for arresting black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. in his Massachusetts home is a police academy expert on understanding racial profiling.
Cambridge Sgt. James Crowley has taught a class about racial profiling for five years at the Lowell Police Academy after being hand-picked for the job by former police Commissioner Ronny Watson, who is black, said Academy Director Thomas Fleming




The officer knows his job and actually teaches the class on the subject at hand.

[Rich Parsons]

I agree. I don't understand why the President made the statement he did. But how does him jumping to a conclusion excuse anyone else?


It does not. But by being sarcastic and also by jumping to conclusion in my posts I make it so obvious to how bad it is to do so.




Do you have an oppression complex? Every criticism of anyone who is a minority is called racist. A lot of things are racist that many people refuse to recognize and educate themselves on and so get uptight when called on their ignorance.


I do not have an oppression complex.

I have been beat up by the police.

I have been targeted by lots of border checks and also security at airports. Everytime I go through a secure check point I get more checks then anyone else I know. This is not an opression complex, it is a statement of fact.

I can tell you stories that would have you laughing at how outrageous they are and later after you think about it having you cry as to how could that actually happen.

Yes, may do get upset about being called out.

But, my personal list of friends, and those I call brother of another mother, are not all caucasion, and I personally have stood up to both white and black people and groups for their racists comments.

And in this case I think the President was being racist in that he assummed another White police officer was trying to beat and keep down an educated Black man. So I made my points that people should apologize for their actions.




I wouldn't have a problem with that.

[Archangel M]

I keep hearing the "this is a case of racial PROFILING"...they keep on using those words, I dont not think they mean what they think they mean.

Profiling means targeting a person for the initiation of police contact. I stop you because you are a black guy driving in a "white neighborhood". I stop some black youth on a bike because hes in a white neighborhood where there have been bike thefts...those are "profiling" (in the "Wrong" sense...there are also examples of legitimate uses of "profiling"). Making a valid arrest of someone doesn't make it "profiling" just because they were black. If I get called by SOMEONE ELSE to the scene of a crime and make an arrest very rarely does "profiling" enter the equation...9 times out of 10 profiling is is done when the cop is looking to make contact with someone.

[Carol]

Slow intersection huh. More time for more people on a busier street to hear and see the police car and siren and wonder over. So maybe this commotion and crowd gathering was in large part there for the officer's presence. I know when there's a siren in NY people gather, not a good habit but people do.

There is always a crowd in Harvard Square, period. Its the busiest part of Cambridge. The officer stated he was in his cruiser on Harvard near Ware, its likely that he did not put his siren on.

[CoryKS]

It doesn't really matter why the crowd gathered. What I'm interested in is what they saw or heard after they had gathered. The police officer says that Gates was shouting and behaving "tumultuously". Gates says that he didn't lose his cool but simply asked the officer for his name and number. Should be easy to tell whose story is accurate. Not that anyone will check now.

[Archangel M]

Sgt. Crowley's side of the story:

http://audio.weei.com/hosting/media/weei/1598198/w-sgtjimcrowley.mp3

[celtic_crippler]

But was the crowd caused by Gates or by the police cruiser presumably speeding through a residential area to a "crime scene" sirens blaring? I think people would have showed up wither way.

Where I'm from cops don't generally respond to a B&E with sirens blaring. Is it different up north?

Just saw Obama commenting on it some more...said he thought it was silly to handcuff a middle aged man. How you LEO's feel about that? LOL

[Archangel M]

The president is ignorant of police procedures (dare I say STUPID?). If you are arrested you get handcuffed....period.

[Carol]

Why show knowledge of police procedure when you get a free shot at busting on the cops? :rolleyes:

[celtic_crippler]

The president is ignorant of police procedures (dare I say STUPID?). If you are arrested you get handcuffed....period.

What else is he ignorant of I wonder. :uhohh:

He should just fess up that his words were the result of a kneejerk reaction to hearing the story, but he probably won't. I don't think he's ever admitted to being wrong about anything has he?

[blindsage]

The fact that Gates is still crying like a little ***** about this tends to support the police account, IMO.
According to his account he was treated completely innapropriately, that make him a ***** and supports the police account?


Interesting (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99KBEAO1&show_article=1).
That is interesting.

[MJS]

As soon as the Professor showed his ID which had the address of the house he was in the incident should have ended. The officer should have handed the ID back and said "have a nice evening sir" and left.

And as I, and a few others have said, in cases like this, its natural to check the area. Had there been someone inside and something happened to the homeowner, you can rest assure that he'd file some complaint that the cops didn't check the house.

As always, they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. This guy was being a jerk, period, and couldve avoided half his issues, if he'd shut the hell up and act like an adult instead of a kid.

[Archangel M]

Im wondering how long its gonna be before the president whips out a "why did the cop shoot to kill...why didn't he shoot him in the leg?" He seems to be going right down that road.

Disappointing.

[MJS]

I hear all the arguments, I still say once his identity was established the cop should have said "Have a nice day" and left. The Prof did get agitated and loud, but he had already proven ID, what was the cop still doing there? I would be pissed if after proving that I was not breaking into my own house to the cop he was not still sniffing around.

And as I said, if there was someone in the house, you can bet the innocent Prof would have been pissed. So...again, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[MJS]

I hear what you are saying man,

Are you really???


but identity was established so the cop should have left. Combative, before, after, during, he didn't hit anybody, he was pissed and got loud at his own place.

This differs from what the post above yours just stated. Fact is, this guy was being a jerk, and interferring with an investigation. Was it necessary for him to act like that? No, but its the typical pattern from some people who just cant seem to be capable of talking normally. The cops have a job to do...why can't people let them do it?

[MJS]

But was the crowd caused by Gates or by the police cruiser presumably speeding through a residential area to a "crime scene" sirens blaring? I think people would have showed up wither way.

And your use of the "crime scene" remark tells me that you're reading one side and one side only. Until they get there, how else do you expect them to treat the scene?

[MJS]

Where I'm from cops don't generally respond to a B&E with sirens blaring.

Really? Man, where I work, you'd have a few cars screaming to the call. Of course, once they get in the area, they shut things down, but to get there initially....look out. LOL.

[Andy Moynihan]

Yeah, this sort of thing doesn't work anymore. A black man currently occupies the most powerful office in this country. I'm afraid the race card is maxed out.

[blindsage]

If only reality didn't interfere with that notion.

[Andy Moynihan]

More's the pity. That would imply we'd evolved as a species, instead of just being feces.

[Omar B]

This differs from what the post above yours just stated. Fact is, this guy was being a jerk, and interferring with an investigation. Was it necessary for him to act like that? No, but its the typical pattern from some people who just cant seem to be capable of talking normally. The cops have a job to do...why can't people let them do it?

Yeah, he did his job, the person seen breaking in was the home owner.


And your use of the "crime scene" remark tells me that you're reading one side and one side only. Until they get there, how else do you expect them to treat the scene?

Yes, I used quotes because there was no crime though the cop may have thought so at first. Once he got there and established ID he should have left. No I'm not reading one side, but I still see a man arrested in his own home for a disturbance more likely caused by blaring siren in a heavily peopled area.

[Archangel M]

This professors behavior wasnt "caused" by anything. He chose to act like an ass.

[Rich Parsons]

The president is ignorant of police procedures (dare I say STUPID?). If you are arrested you get handcuffed....period.


You can be handcuffed for the security of the officer and not be arrested.

I know I was, I was guilty of being 6'3" and 250 lbs where the female officer was small and slight of build. She responded to the domestic I called where the Ex-wife and her boyfriend showed up and I had called 9-1-1 . the offcier did not know who called so she hand cuffed me being the largest.

It happens. Was I embarrassed with the neighbors watching? Yes.

After they had all left, I staid outside on the porch and one neighbor came over and asked. I explained. The other talked to me the next day.

Was I mad? Yes.

Did I blame the officer once it was explained to me it was for her safety? No. But until I understood that she was concerned for her safety as I was calm and had the phone in my hand. I would have gotten in the back of her cruiser if she had asked. But instead she went strait to maximum security. Safety. Ok.

[grydth]

Can one choose to support neither of the above?

The screeching Professor Gates ignores one thing: That cop was there because of a report of a possible felony in progress at his place. Yes - that means the cop was risking his white ass to protect a black man's home. That's racist??? If he hadn't responded to the scene, then there'd have been accusations of no police protection for black folks. Seems the cop can be slurred with impunity no matter what he does.

The officer ignores one thing: Being a Jerk in the First Degree is not a crime. Were it so, 3/4 of the country would be under arrest. Once he knew that Gates was the homeowner, he should've let the ingrate's whines just roll off his back and cleared the area. The arrest should not have been made.

[Archangel M]

Being a Jerk in the First Degree is not a crime. Were it so, 3/4 of the country would be under arrest.

While I agree with the spirit of your post (the cop could have just thickened his skin)..."being a Jerk in the first degree" in a public place (outside the home), if it includes behavior that meets the statute of disorderly conduct, is indeed a violation of law. Its a law that should be used properly and on people that deserve it (as compared to using it just because the guy pissed you off and you can), but it is a law nonetheless.

[Joab]

All he had to do was prove he lived there. Instead, he asked for name and badge number and got hostile. He escalated into something it didn't need to be and then cried racism when he got arrested for it.

Gates' behavior in this has been childish and emotionally-driven. I certainly hope he's not an accurate indication of the sort of "intellectual" that Harvard employs.

BTW: Do you suppose there's a potential burglar in Cambridge who's considering robbing Gates, with the assumption that the police won't dare investigate it?[/quote]

Police have to give name and badge number when asked by a citizen, it is the law. It is a perfectly reasonable question, and a professional police officer would have given them immediately with courtesy.

[Joab]

From what I understand Gates continued to confront the officers. If he'd been polite, showed his ID immediately, thanked the officers for their quick response and left it at that...no story, but he didn't. He had to show his butt.

There's a reason I'm not a cop...they don't get paid enough for the crap they have to deal with.

It's a tough job. I've worked in security for over 15 years including crowd control, it is tough. And being a cop is far harder, but at least they can do something...but dealing with difficult people is part of the job. The police officer did not act professionally in my estimation and allowed it to escalate far beyond what it should have. Once ID was established that should have been the end of it, regardless of wheteher or not Gates asked for his name and badge number.

[Joab]

[quote=punisher73;1202235]You seem to be missing a key point. When the police first arrived they DID ask Gates for ID and to step outside to confirm his id. Gates did not comply with what they asked for at first and by his own admission was on the phone while the officer was asking him to step outside. It was only after this that Gates went to retrieve his ID.
Yes, but Gates eventually did give the officer his ID. After it was established that Gates lived there, that should have been the end of it, regardless of whether or not Gates asked for the officer's name and badge number and regardless of whether or not he asked for this info. politely. Period.

[Archangel M]

Uhhh..this guy wasnt arrested "because he asked for the cops ID"...yeah the cop could have (and probably should have) just walked back to his car and went 10-8. But turning this into a racial issue is out in left field IMO. The cop "could have just walked off" (doesnt change the legal legitimacy of the arrest however)...and the professor could have just said "thanks for looking out for my home officer..heres my ID".

[crushing]

Yes, but Gates eventually did give the officer his ID. After it was established that Gates lived there, that should have been the end of it, regardless of whether or not Gates asked for the officer's name and badge number and regardless of whether or not he asked for this info. politely. Period.

Yes, that's probably where the officers wanted it to end.

[Joab]

If that is where the cops wanted it to end, why didn't they end it there than? Cops are supposed to be professionals, they are supposed to know who to deescalate situations. True, I wasn't there, but after realizing the whole thing was really a mistake in the first place, that the guy who broke into the house lived there, the proper approach would have been to use a bit of diplomacy and common sense and not arrest Gates. Even if Gates did disturb the peace, realize that its time to call it a night, have a nice evening sir, and walk away. Arresting Gates was way out of line.

[Ray B]

I don't know. I wasn't there. If the LEO asked for ID and Gate complied, then the LEO should have dropped it.

This is my experience:

When I had my commercial dojo, I had a security system installed complete with a panic button that would alert the local police of a robbery in progrss. One afternoon while working on my scooter in the front of the dojo, I hit the remote panic button by accident. The next thing I know, an LEO is approching me with a shotgun. He motioned me away and I complied. He asked who I was and I told him I owned the dojo. My ID was inside so he told me to stand in clear view until his partners (plural) secured the area. Once secured, we walked back in and I showed them my ID and the business license on the wall confirm that I was the owner. With a heart felt thanks I apologied and thank them for responding. The LEOs left without a problem. IMO, this is what should have happened.

[Archangel M]

"Way out of line"?? Thats a matter of opinion....

Probably could have been done different is different from "out of line"...either he was disorderly in public or he wasnt. The officer "could have (probably should have) used some discretion here..I agree. That doesnt mean that the arrest was unlawful.

The charges being dropped have noting to do with the facts in this case as much as it was political expediency IMO. The prosecutor using his discretion to not prosecute.

[Archangel M]

I don't know. I wasn't there. If the LEO asked for ID and Gate complied, then the LEO should have dropped it.

This is my experience:

When I had my commercial dojo, I had a security system installed complete with a panic button that would alert the local police of a robbery in progrss. One afternoon while working on my scooter in the front of the dojo, I hit the remote panic button by accident. The next thing I know, an LEO is approching me with a shotgun. He motioned me away and I complied. He asked who I was and I told him I owned the dojo. My ID was inside so he told me to stand in clear view until his partners (plural) secured the area. Once secured, we walked back in and I showed them my ID and the business license on the wall confirm that I was the owner. With a heart felt thanks I apologied and thank them for responding. The LEOs left without a problem. IMO, this is what should have happened.

One difference..you didnt stand out in front of your dojo going off on the cops for the way they dealt with you...making comments about their mothers...you dont know who you are dealing with..you are going to regret this..etc. All things the officer claimed were thrown at him by this educated professional.

[Ray B]

Anyone can call the police and claim that they saw you break into your own home. I guess after a long day, I would be a little ticked too. I only takes one disgruntled neighbor...

[Archangel M]

Anyone can call the police and claim that they saw you break into your own home. I guess after a long day, I would be a little ticked too. I only takes one disgrutled neighbor...

That has nothing to do with the police response to such a call.

It was a passerby by all accounts..I'd be grateful that someone was looking out for my property. Wouldnt you want someone to call if they thought someone was breaking into your home?

[Joab]

I've since read an interview with the police officer who arrested Gates. If what he said was true, and if Gates initially refused to show the officer his ID and than caused the kind of scene he describes, I agree Gates didn't handle this incident very well. If what the officer said was true, Gates did break the law by disturbing the peace. It's not how I would have acted, I would have shown my ID immediately, thanked the officers for showing up at my house for checking out admittedly suspicious activity, and called it a night. But even if that is the case, I think the officer should have let it go, and not arrested Gates. Than again, I wasn't there. Than again, they did drop the charge. I will agree that labeling the police officer racist is way out of line, we can not know his heart nor read his mind. Police take a lot of crap, I've seen far worse than this in downtown Seattle and the police let it go (Calling police four letter vulgar names, telling a cop "Terry can die so can you" referring to a slain Seattle police officer who's last name was Terry for instance, I wish the cops had arrested those guys quite frankly) and I think the police should have let this one go as well. True, it sounds like Gates should have handled this incident better, but so could have the police.

[crushing]

If that is where the cops wanted it to end, why didn't they end it there than? Cops are supposed to be professionals, they are supposed to know who to deescalate situations. True, I wasn't there, but after realizing the whole thing was really a mistake in the first place, that the guy who broke into the house lived there, the proper approach would have been to use a bit of diplomacy and common sense and not arrest Gates. Even if Gates did disturb the peace, realize that its time to call it a night, have a nice evening sir, and walk away. Arresting Gates was way out of line.

So how do you know the arrest just slightly out of line, let alone way out of line? We don't know what was said or how it was said. All we know is that the officers showed up to possibly protect Gates' home, possessions, and possibly Gates himself from an intruder and somehow the officers end up the villains.

You can have all the verbal and de-escalation skills in the world, there may be some people you just can't calm down.

[Joab]

So how do you know the arrest just slightly out of line, let alone way out of line? We don't know what was said or how it was said. All we know is that the officers showed up to possibly protect Gates' home, possessions, and possibly Gates himself from an intruder and somehow the officers end up the villains.

You can have all the verbal and de-escalation skills in the world, there may be some people you just can't calm down.

Your right, I wasn't there. Certainly we need more info from all the police officers and anyone else who observed this incident. I think both sides could have handled this a lot better quite frankly. I'm usually on the cops side, I've worked with them a lot, and it's a very tough job, but arresting the man...well, your right, I wasn't there. Investigate the case further, get more info. and than decide. I hope both sides learned something from this. I hope home owners will treat the police better when a situation like this happens, I hope the police learn to deescalate better, I hope something positive somes out of this whole mess.

[crushing]

Your right, I wasn't there. Certainly we need more info from all the police officers and anyone else who observed this incident.

Hopefully they make public the secret evidence provided to President Obama about this issue. He certainly wouldn't have condemned the police knowing as little about what really happened as we do.

[MJS]

Yeah, he did his job, the person seen breaking in was the home owner.



Yes, I used quotes because there was no crime though the cop may have thought so at first. Once he got there and established ID he should have left. No I'm not reading one side, but I still see a man arrested in his own home for a disturbance more likely caused by blaring siren in a heavily peopled area.

Again, the cops were responding to what they thought was a burg in progress. How they respond to calls is pre-determined by the policies of that dept. Where I work, that would be a lights/siren response. The Prof was obviously pissed because of the door not opening, as well as the police being called. Asking him for ID most likely pissed him off more. You feel that once it was established that it was his home, they should have left. I, and many others are saying that he was arrested because of his actions. Furthermore, its perfectly normal to check the house. If there were someone inside, are you telling me that the Prof would not have filed a complaint saying the cops didn't do their job?

It has nothing to do with the siren. Saying thats why he got upset is crazy. He acted that way most likely because of the door and being questioned, God forbid.

Please...if the cops took 30min to get there, you know damn well that the public would have been crying like babies about the slow response.

[MJS]

The officer ignores one thing: Being a Jerk in the First Degree is not a crime. Were it so, 3/4 of the country would be under arrest. Once he knew that Gates was the homeowner, he should've let the ingrate's whines just roll off his back and cleared the area. The arrest should not have been made.

While being an ass isn't a crime, creating a disturbance and interferring with the investigation is.

[jks9199]

As soon as the Professor showed his ID which had the address of the house he was in the incident should have ended. The officer should have handed the ID back and said "have a nice evening sir" and left.
It ain't that simple.

Keeping to some LOOSE similarities with this incident... Let's say a guy is thrown out of a house by the cops after beating his wife half to death. There's a protective order issued against him. Or even just legally evicted from the place for whatever reason... He's still got ID saying he lives there, but he doesn't necessarily have a right to be there. Some extra digging is appropriate even if he's got an ID that lists that address. What about a bad divorce or messy break-up?

Sure, the ID goes a long way towards supporting the claim. But it's not automatically going to end the discussion. A few more minutes chatting, a quick record check... and at least the cop has done what he can to make sure everything is right.

[Joab]

It ain't that simple.

Keeping to some LOOSE similarities with this incident... Let's say a guy is thrown out of a house by the cops after beating his wife half to death. There's a protective order issued against him. Or even just legally evicted from the place for whatever reason... He's still got ID saying he lives there, but he doesn't necessarily have a right to be there. Some extra digging is appropriate even if he's got an ID that lists that address. What about a bad divorce or messy break-up?

Sure, the ID goes a long way towards supporting the claim. But it's not automatically going to end the discussion. A few more minutes chatting, a quick record check... and at least the cop has done what he can to make sure everything is right.

Your right. But they were called because of a break in. When they ascertained that the man with the ID was the man who broke in that should have pretty well finished it. There was no complaint about domestic violence. But you've made some valid points, perhaps a quick records check would have been a good idea.

[jks9199]

Isn't anyone noticing the charges against Professor Gates were dropped?

It doesn't matter whether you are in your own home or not. When you make a ruckus to the point where it can bother other people (the denser the population, the higher the risk) you run the risk for disorderly conduct.

Why isn't President Obama coming to the aid of the woman that was arrested by the Cambridge PD because she flipped out at a Starbucks over the amount of foam in her latte (http://breeohnnah.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/woman-arrested-in-a-starbucks-in-cambridge-ma-for-disorderly-conduct-when-she-complained-about-the-amount-of-foam-in-her-latte/)?
That the charges were dropped doesn't necessarily speak to the validity of the charges. (Gawd, that's a crappy sentence!)

The charges may have been dropped for a lot of reasons. It could be that the university police intervened on Prof. Gates's behalf, or a Cambridge cop who'd taken a class with him. It could be that the higher brass at the department recognized the headache this was going to be, and tried to smooth it over by having the charges dropped. Or that, after he calmed down at the station, everyone simply thought better of it, and cut him loose... (until he got home and got pissed off again). Or maybe someone was aware that, though the charge was valid, the local prosecutors or courts won't accept it. Or any of a couple dozen other possibilities...

By the way, the charges were dropped nearly a week later. That strongly suggests to me that it was either an appeasement effort (unwise, in my opinion), a response to the press storm, or pressure in the prosecutor's office.

[MJS]

Its perfectly normal to not only verify who everyone is, but to also check for any warrants, such as was already mentioned. Just the other day, 2 girls, both underage, wrapped their car around a pole. The driver was arrested for DUI and the passenger for a warrant.

This goes to show that there is more to it than simply having the Prof show his ID and the cops go on their way. I also find it interesting how the following questions are not being answered:

1) People are saying that it was the response of the cops, ie: lights/siren, that upset the Prof. So, if they took their time getting there, are you telling me people still would not cry foul?

2) What if there was someone inside or outside the residence? The cops fail to check, the Prof gets hurt or killed. Are you telling me that nobody would cry foul?

[jks9199]

I keep hearing the "this is a case of racial PROFILING"...they keep on using those words, I dont not think they mean what they think they mean.

Profiling means targeting a person for the initiation of police contact. I stop you because you are a black guy driving in a "white neighborhood". I stop some black youth on a bike because hes in a white neighborhood where there have been bike thefts...those are "profiling" (in the "Wrong" sense...there are also examples of legitimate uses of "profiling"). Making a valid arrest of someone doesn't make it "profiling" just because they were black. If I get called by SOMEONE ELSE to the scene of a crime and make an arrest very rarely does "profiling" enter the equation...9 times out of 10 profiling is is done when the cop is looking to make contact with someone.
Or, to be blunt, the only racial profiling that took place was from the original complainant -- if anyone. 'Cause I'd sure want someone to call the cops if they saw me (or anyone else) forcing their way into my house, and didn't know me.

To continue to be blunt -- I give the two police reports (linked on page 2 of this thread) a lot more credence than the professor's press accounts. Who's got more vested interest in portraying this a particular way? The cops who filed their reports within hours of the event (and probably now wish it'd just go away) or the professor who's suddenly getting national, popular press attention and has his new idea to push... and probably doesn't want to be perceived as having made an ass out of himself.

As I've said; I think there were failures in communication on both sides. There's something to learn from both sides. But any of that is being lost in the race argument.

[jks9199]

Police have to give name and badge number when asked by a citizen, it is the law. It is a perfectly reasonable question, and a professional police officer would have given them immediately with courtesy.
There's no such LAW in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Just about every agency does have a policy requiring officers to provide this information politely, when practical. Someone yelling, demanding, and causing a disturbance may just have to live with "it'll be on your arrest paperwork", ESPECIALLY if they've already been given it a few times...

Don't know about Massachusetts, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have such a law either.

[MJS]

Police have to give name and badge number when asked by a citizen, it is the law. It is a perfectly reasonable question, and a professional police officer would have given them immediately with courtesy.

I don't know about a law, but I would say its a courtesy. However, seeing that you said its a law, can you cite a source for that please?

[Archangel M]

And our president had NO PLACE putting "I dont have all the facts" AND "the police acted stupidly" together during a press confrence....

[Archangel M]

There's no such LAW in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Just about every agency does have a policy requiring officers to provide this information politely, when practical. Someone yelling, demanding, and causing a disturbance may just have to live with "it'll be on your arrest paperwork", ESPECIALLY if they've already been given it a few times...

Don't know about Massachusetts, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have such a law either.

Not a "law" here either...a policy in my PD..but not a law. This whole thing is becoming a bit antiquated. In this day and age of computer dispatching a citizen can call in and get all that at any time. If you give me a date and address I can tell you what the call was, who was there, access reports etc.

[Big Don]

The real racism I see in this case is Gates' screaming "Racist" all day long.
That, and President Obama's idiotic statement.

[Andy Moynihan]

And our president had NO PLACE putting "I dont have all the facts" AND "the police acted stupidly" together during a press confrence....


Hell, something like THAT isn't gonna stop HIM. Never has before.

[celtic_crippler]

And our president had NO PLACE putting "I dont have all the facts" AND "the police acted stupidly" together during a press confrence....

It's not his fault...it's what they put up on the teleprompter. :)

[sgtmac_46]

Whatever the sequence of events were no crime was committed and the home owner got arrested for forcing his own door. Charges were dropped so I guess the cops see it that way too.

No, he got arrested for acting like a jackass and creating a disturbance AFTERWARD!

[sgtmac_46]

Hopefully they make public the secret evidence provided to President Obama about this issue. He certainly wouldn't have condemned the police knowing as little about what really happened as we do.

:BSmeter:

[sgtmac_46]

Your right. But they were called because of a break in. When they ascertained that the man with the ID was the man who broke in that should have pretty well finished it. There was no complaint about domestic violence. But you've made some valid points, perhaps a quick records check would have been a good idea.

There's a lot folks putting quite a lot of stock in Gates version of events......a version I find highly suspect.

I think more accurate would be that Gates FINALLY provided identification, after a confrontation and a tirade......after providing identification the officer began to leave, and Gates, not content to leave it at that, followed himself and created a disturbance there.

But the most ASININE thing out of this whole situation was our Dictator and Chief's statements on the matter......



"Now, I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played," Obama said. "But I think it's fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry; number two, that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home."



Obama continued: "What I think we know, separate and apart from this incident, is that there's a long history in this country of African Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately. That's just a fact." He said that he had pushed for the passage of legislation in the Illinois legislature to address the problem.
Obama went on to say that he stood in the White House "as testimony to the progress that's been made."
"And yet the fact of the matter is, is that, you know, this still haunts us," Obama said. "And even when there are honest misunderstandings, the fact that blacks and Hispanics are picked up more frequently, and often time for no cause, casts suspicion, even when there is good cause."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/22/AR2009072203800.html

So he doesn't KNOW for a fact that the police are racist, but he's going to assume so and call them such out of ACORN/Community Organizer habit.


The man is a DISGRACE to the White House.

[punisher73]

Let's recap what we DO know from Gates own statements and the Dispatch information.

1) He was gone out of town (in China), maybe the passerby knew that the occupant was supposed to be out of town.

2) There was NO luggage at the front door. That was taken around back by the driver. So the only thing seen was two people with backpacks trying to break in a door.

3) Gates is on the phone with the company that owns the house to report the damage to the front door. Police are at the front door and ask him to step outside. Gates continues with the phone conversation while police keep asking him to step outside.

Now for some assumptions.

Gates JUST got back from a trip to China. It's not far fetched to think that he was already tired from the trip and just wanted to get home and relax. Upon arriving home he has to spend who knows how long trying to get into his own house. After getting into his house he realizes that he has damaged the door and now has to make a call to get it fixed. His stress level is already pretty high and his patience probably really low.

The police get dispatched to a call about two men breaking into a house. Police arrive and see the front door damaged and try to make contact with the subject in the house. Police at this point don't know who he is or what he is doing. Their stress level is pretty high. After requesting ID, they are confronted with the person asking THEM to show proper ID while still attempting to establish his ID. Their patience level is probably pretty low at this point.

ID is established and the police want to leave. Owner follows them out of the house and continues to verbalize his displeasure with the situation. Police who now have had enough of listening to him arrest him for disorderly conduct.

This has NOTHING to do with race and everything to do with being human. Human beings will reach a point where they just have had enough. BOTH sides reached this point in the situation.

As far as the charges being dropped. That is NOT the call of the police agency. Only the Prosecuting Attorney's Office can do that. One of the reasons that they can dismiss charges is "would not be in the best interest of the public". They knew that they would have a crap storm if they continued on with the charges. They knew it would be in THEIR best interest to make it go away.

[punisher73]

And our president had NO PLACE putting "I dont have all the facts" AND "the police acted stupidly" together during a press confrence....


And yet very few people on this site believed my story about when Obyssmal came to our county to do an appearance. He ordered all LEO's away from him so he would not be seen or photographed with them. He has repeatedly shown a disrespect for those in uniform (military and police) and this is just another example of it.

How can you expect race relations to heal or get any better when the most influential person in the world jumps on the race bandwagon withouth knowing any of the facts?

[jks9199]

Gee... another page out of the Clinton success manual. They had a reputation for demanding that uniformed officers be kept well out of sight when they were around. Even if the uniforms were there for THEIR protection.

[celtic_crippler]

Sgt. Crowley is obviously a racist...I mean a white man giving CPR to a black man...putting his lips on his and trying to save his life...well, that's just plain racist. ...right...


Crowley at age 27 gave CPR to a dying Reggie Lewis, the Boston Celtics star who had a fatal heart attack in 1993 during a practice game at Brandeis University, where Crowley was a campus police officer at the time.

More, also provides links to the police report, and comments posted by Gates on the website he maintains...sickening. Gates is doing nothing to further the advancement of blacks or any minority, quite the contrary from where I sit.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/07/23/police-officer-obama-butt-arrest/

[jks9199]

I didn't look much at Gates's website, TheRoot.com. Too much of the little I read seems like it's written by activists who have already made up their mind on any issue -- and it's always that the "white man is wrong." I've known professors of African American studies, and discussed some of these issues with them in the past; it's not a viewpoint intrinsic to their studies -- though it sometimes seems like it. The few articles I read clearly seemed to begin with the assumption that Gates was fully in the right, and the cop fully wrong.

Personally, I suspect the charges were dropped at the request of the police, hoping to smooth things over. I wish they weren't, because it creates the false impression that Sgt. Crowley was wrong. I have the same issue with the way the IACP and many police chiefs individually have addressed accusations of racial profiling. Before I go on, I freely admit that SOME officers do profile inappropriately -- but I also insist that they are a small minority today. Every study I'm aware of has NOT supported any institutional bias. In fact, one study was so contrary to the desired findings that the authors had to resort to publishing it as a book when the governmental body that commissioned it didn't like the results!

[celtic_crippler]

Just heard Sgt. Crowley is considering a lawsuit for defamation of character.

The more I learn about this the more I hope he goes through with it and wins.

[Omar B]

No, he got arrested for acting like a jackass and creating a disturbance AFTERWARD!

That exclamation and capitals sure makes your point. But I still believe that however loud the old man may have gotten, the police siren and flashing lights was more of a disturbance.

[Archangel M]

Theres a legitimate purpose behind lights and sirens dude.

[Omar B]

I know there is, but I'm saying that his legitimate purpose may have been more of a disturbance than one sole voice.

[CoryKS]

The bottom line is that Gates, through his own racist narrative and his self-regard for his marginal celebrity status, tried to establish dominance on a police officer who was responding to a routine call. He failed in the short-term, resulting in his arrest. He may have succeeded in the longer term, having brought national attention to himself and secured the apology of his personal friend the governor and also the sympathy of another influential friend, the president. Looking at this from a still longer term perspective, it will be interesting to see what kind of fallout results from this. The police are fuming about Obama's remarks, the officer is considering a defamation of character suit, and a lot of people who are usually sympathetic to racial injustice are rolling their eyes and saying "give me a ****ing break." I'm actually surprised by the amount of pushback there has been on this, and I think it's possible that this may be an historical event in the sense that more people begin to cast a cynical eye to charges which up to now have seemed "truthy".

In any case, Gates is clearly a man who is ruled by his emotions and has no claim to the label of "intellectual". He is, quite frankly, a braying jackass.

[tallgeese]

Yeah, except that if these guys were sharp, they didn't have said lights and sirens going. A burg in progress is a quiet approach when you get close.

So, the good Prof's disturbance is the issue here. The dude's probably lucky he didn't get a gun pointed at him during the initial approach.

So we have a good samaritian who takes the time to call in a possible burg in progress rather than just walk along glad it's not his home being broken into, rare enough. Cops respond and find an individual matching said descriptive inside. They investigate and he turns tool and starts yelling and screaming.

I might have taken him too. Maybe not, but I'm not going to second guess. The bottom line is that it seems that it was a legal arrest made in good faith. Good luck with any civil suit if there's justice in the world at all.

Dropped charges are out of the hands of the cops and are up to the legal establishment and courts, which are highly politicized. It doesn't suprise me at all that they elected to take the easy way out of this. And quite frankly it probably isn't worth the time. That's their choice. It was the Prof's choice to engage in behavior that met the elements of a criminal offense. He can't whine because officers made the choice to legally effect an arrest.

[Steve]

For me, the issue that bugs me is that a person who is not a criminal was arrested. Disorderly conduct is such a bogus charge. The guy was angry and the cop basically arrested him for it. What a chickensh## charge.

In my mind, there's likely fault on both sides for allowing the situation to escalate to the point that the President of the US is commenting on it, but ultimately I fall back to the basic, fundamental truth that this guy was essentially arrested for being a jackass... and if that's illegal, half of our country will be in jail before long.

[Joab]

I don't know about a law, but I would say its a courtesy. However, seeing that you said its a law, can you cite a source for that please?



The General Law of Massachusetts

PART I. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT


TITLE VII. CITIES, TOWNS AND DISTRICTS


CHAPTER 41. OFFICERS AND EMPLOYEES OF CITIES, TOWNS AND DISTRICTS


POLICE OFFICERS


Chapter 41: Section 98D. Identification cards


Section 98D. Each city or town shall issue to every full time police officer employed by it an identification card bearing his photograph and the municipal seal. Such card shall be carried on the officer’s person, and shall be exhibited upon lawful request for purposes of identification.
source: Here are the links to the relevant Mass. laws http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/41-98d.htm (http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/41-98d.htm) and http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/41-98c.htm (http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/41-98c.htm)

[shaolinmonkmark]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html



i believe Obama and Gates should aplogize.

[Archangel M]

People who are "not criminals" get arrested all the time. Play your music too loud at 3 Am and tell the cops to go **** themselves and see what happens. Agree with DC statutes or not...it IS a law.

[celtic_crippler]

I really don't think it had anything to do with race. Instead, it had to do with an elitist thinking they were above the law.

I don't care who you are or the color of your skin...you badger the police long enough, including talking about their momma, and you're gonna wind up in cuffs. Regardless of whether you live in an upscale neighborhood or a trailer park.

...just looking back along the thread a little bit. Unless I missed it, nobody answered my question about the cop's response. I was under the impression that you don't respond to a B&E with sirens blaring...am I wrong?

[Archangel M]

What it boils down to is that the police officer showed up on a legitimate call from a third party. While conducting his investigation he asks the occupant to step-out (in case there is an intruder inside) asks if there is anybody else inside (IN CASE THERE IS AN INTRUDER INSIDE!!) and is trying to do his JOB! What he gets is this "professor" IMMEDIATELY ASSUMING that the cop is only doing this because hes a "BLACK MAN IN AMERICA!"

While there may be a shared burden in the outcome of this contact, the side that bears the brunt of it is pretty obvious to me.

[Archangel M]

...just looking back along the thread a little bit. Unless I missed it, nobody answered my question about the cop's response. I was under the impression that you don't respond to a B&E with sirens blaring...am I wrong?

Most PD's train that you use your lights and sirens until you get within a certain distance of the location...at which time you shut down so as not to give away your arrival.

[punisher73]

I really don't think it had anything to do with race. Instead, it had to do with an elitist thinking they were above the law.

I don't care who you are or the color of your skin...you badger the police long enough, including talking about their momma, and you're gonna wind up in cuffs. Regardless of whether you live in an upscale neighborhood or a trailer park.

...just looking back along the thread a little bit. Unless I missed it, nobody answered my question about the cop's response. I was under the impression that you don't respond to a B&E with sirens blaring...am I wrong?

You might go lights on to get there quickly, but in the case of B&E's most policy is that you go silent so you can get to them without alerting them and having them get away.

Also, the officer was right in the area with an UNMARKED patrol car since the Sgt. was on administrative assignment.

[punisher73]

For me, the issue that bugs me is that a person who is not a criminal was arrested. Disorderly conduct is such a bogus charge. The guy was angry and the cop basically arrested him for it. What a chickensh## charge.

In my mind, there's likely fault on both sides for allowing the situation to escalate to the point that the President of the US is commenting on it, but ultimately I fall back to the basic, fundamental truth that this guy was essentially arrested for being a jackass... and if that's illegal, half of our country will be in jail before long.


The key here is environment. If you are at a loud rowdy bar you can be a bit more of a jackass and it is not causing a disturbance and the behavior is not so out of the ordinary. If you are in a very nice neighborhood like this and your behavior is scaring other people who live in the area and you are refusing requests to calm down, they probably are going to determine that the best way to reestablish peace was to remove him from the situation.

Granted there are some police who may abuse that charge, but it is a great tool for police officers to remove the subject when they are creating a hostile environment (many domestic situations that haven't crossed over the line yet or neighbors who WILL lead to a fight if someone isn't removed) and the need is there to remove the cause even though another more serious law hasn't been broke yet.

Seriously, ask yourself if you were a cop in that situation and a person was calling you a racist, talking about your mother and showing a complete and total disregard for your authority and then takes it into a public place and continues the behavior after telling him repeatedly to calm down or you would be arrested and the person continues, what would you do? Just turn around and leave? Show that the police don't have any authority to do their jobs? What message does that send to the community with all those people watching that you can treat the police like that?

[Archangel M]

Breaking News: President calls Police Sgt and apologizes.

[Steve]

People who are "not criminals" get arrested all the time. Play your music too loud at 3 Am and tell the cops to go **** themselves and see what happens. Agree with DC statutes or not...it IS a law.Difference being that in your example, someone presumably broke a law. Speaking to your example, though, I've seen this situation more than once, and no one ever got arrested. I've seen a few citations, many warnings and admonishments to keep it down, but never handcuffs. And even in this situation, if the handcuffs were strictly for "telling the cops to go **** themselves" I'd disagree then, too. I'm all for being polite and respectful to everyone, but I also have a well documented stubborn streak and the idea that I should kiss a cop's butt or get arrested really rubs me the wrong way.

Once again, this guy broke no laws. He was arrested for not offering the appropriate degree of respect to the cop.

The key here is environment. If you are at a loud rowdy bar you can be a bit more of a jackass and it is not causing a disturbance and the behavior is not so out of the ordinary. If you are in a very nice neighborhood like this and your behavior is scaring other people who live in the area and you are refusing requests to calm down, they probably are going to determine that the best way to reestablish peace was to remove him from the situation. In my opinion, I should have MORE latitude to act like a douche in my own home than in a public location, even if it's a rowdy bar.

Granted there are some police who may abuse that charge, but it is a great tool for police officers to remove the subject when they are creating a hostile environment (many domestic situations that haven't crossed over the line yet or neighbors who WILL lead to a fight if someone isn't removed) and the need is there to remove the cause even though another more serious law hasn't been broke yet.I can completely understand this. I'm not advocating that the law be removed from the books. I'm stating my opinion that this is an example of abuse of that law.

Seriously, ask yourself if you were a cop in that situation and a person was calling you a racist, talking about your mother and showing a complete and total disregard for your authority and then takes it into a public place and continues the behavior after telling him repeatedly to calm down or you would be arrested and the person continues, what would you do? Just turn around and leave? Show that the police don't have any authority to do their jobs? What message does that send to the community with all those people watching that you can treat the police like that?I think it's really, really interesting that you say it like this. To answer your question, I believe that the police officer should remain polite regardless of the amount of verbal abuse he's taking. I believe that, as soon as he ID'd Gates, he should have thanked him for his time, apologized for the confusion and LEFT. The message to the community... I'm not sure I understand your point. It sounds like you're suggesting that Gates was arrested to send a message to the community. I can't understand how you think that might be just. To me, it speaks to insecurity and a lack of professionalism... sort of like Cartman of South Park saying, "You must respect my AUTHORITAH!" and slapping on the cuffs.

Just to set the record straight, I'm not apologizing or condoning Gates' behavior. I simply believe that the cop allowed the situation to escalate unnecessarily and ultimately abused his position by arresting someone for being a jerk.

[Archangel M]

Sounds like Sgt. Crowley and the Pres are arranging a meeting to "have a beer" at the Whitehouse.

[sgtmac_46]

Just heard Sgt. Crowley is considering a lawsuit for defamation of character.

The more I learn about this the more I hope he goes through with it and wins.

Well, Gates made the statement about not being the kind of person you want to mess with......apparently Sgt. Crowley is the kind of cop who these folks don't want to mess with. A well respected police officer who has been recognized by the community as a positive force......they picked the wrong cop to try and 'Nifong'.

[sgtmac_46]

That exclamation and capitals sure makes your point. But I still believe that however loud the old man may have gotten, the police siren and flashing lights was more of a disturbance.

The police siren and flashing lights are required by law to warn motorists and prevent accidents when responding to priority calls.......of which a home break in qualifies. Don't think so? How do you want the police to respond if your mother, wife or girlfriend is home alone and someone is breaking in their house? Think before you speak.

In addition, creating a disturbance is a very well defined term........following the officer out the door who is trying to leave, and screaming in your front yard certainly qualifies......AGAIN, think before you speak.

[crushing]

Sgt. Crowley is obviously a racist...I mean a white man giving CPR to a black man...putting his lips on his and trying to save his life...well, that's just plain racist. ...right...


If the CPR incident went like the Gates incident has gone, people may be hinting that the 'stupid racist' cop actually killed Reggie Lewis.

[sgtmac_46]

Yeah, except that if these guys were sharp, they didn't have said lights and sirens going. A burg in progress is a quiet approach when you get close.

So, the good Prof's disturbance is the issue here. The dude's probably lucky he didn't get a gun pointed at him during the initial approach.

So we have a good samaritian who takes the time to call in a possible burg in progress rather than just walk along glad it's not his home being broken into, rare enough. Cops respond and find an individual matching said descriptive inside. They investigate and he turns tool and starts yelling and screaming.

I might have taken him too. Maybe not, but I'm not going to second guess. The bottom line is that it seems that it was a legal arrest made in good faith. Good luck with any civil suit if there's justice in the world at all.

Dropped charges are out of the hands of the cops and are up to the legal establishment and courts, which are highly politicized. It doesn't suprise me at all that they elected to take the easy way out of this. And quite frankly it probably isn't worth the time. That's their choice. It was the Prof's choice to engage in behavior that met the elements of a criminal offense. He can't whine because officers made the choice to legally effect an arrest. Well, that's exactly right......they likely cut their lights and sirens several blocks away......and the response by Sgt. Crowley sounded VERY controlled and restrained to anyone with an ounce of intelligence and common sense........which apparently excludes the POTUS.

This is not the MOST stupid thing our Com and Chief has done in his 6 months in office.......but it may go down as his biggest public BLUNDER! Yes, Gates and Obama WILL have their usual apologists.......but for the AVERAGE American, they know what this was and WHO the racists were in this equation.

[CoryKS]

If Gates takes anything away from this experience, it should be this: Sometimes, people don't hate you because they're racist. Sometimes, they hate you because you're a complete *******.

[sgtmac_46]

If Gates takes anything away from this experience, it should be this: Sometimes, people don't hate you because they're racist. Sometime, they hate you because you're a complete *******.

True that! :lfao:

I've known plenty of folks, of all races, with a chip on their shoulder who were SURE that the police were out to get them at every turn.....and guess what? They acted in such a manner as to fulfill that prophecy every chance they got!

[Steve]

True that! :lfao:

I've known plenty of folks, of all races, with a chip on their shoulder who were SURE that the police were out to get them at every turn.....and guess what? They acted in such a manner as to fulfill that prophecy every chance they got!
This entire thing is very unflattering to the police. Even the way the Sgt is being defended makes him look like a petty civil servant abusing what power he has to retaliate for some lack of respect.

[celtic_crippler]

Sounds like Sgt. Crowley and the Pres are arranging a meeting to "have a beer" at the Whitehouse.

Imagine that. President Public Image strikes again. LOL

[Archangel M]

If there was any "profiling" going on here it was the Prof. "profiling" a white cop at his door as only being there "because Im a black man in America".

[sgtmac_46]

This entire thing is very unflattering to the police. Even the way the Sgt is being defended makes him look like a petty civil servant abusing what power he has to retaliate for some lack of respect.

I think you have it quite backwards there.........the most powerful man in the world attacking a civil servant without even knowing the facts is the issue........there IS an ABUSE OF POWER issue here........you just have a handle on the wrong end of it.

As to the Sgt., yes we have the cop haters who are going to attack him regardless......but any rational opinion points the blame CLEARLY on the behavior of Gates...........Crowley isn't some 'Power Mad' rookie, he's a highly respected police officer who has been doing this job for over a decade without complaints of bias or abuse.........and he runs headlong in to Gates, who's got a chip on his shoulder the size of the TITANIC!

Yes, I know the general consensus is when you are a Harvard professor you can act like as big a jackass as you want with impunity.........but the officers responding to a report of a HOME BREAK-IN are doing their job by investigating that break-in, regardless of the opinions of those who think they can do the job better (though have never actually done it).


Make no mistake about it......the ONLY folks who think this is unflattering to the police are the truly shameless Obama apologists, and they are VASTLY in the minority of public opinion on this one...........this WILL hurt the President far more than he intended it to hurt Sgt. Crowley.


Barry needs to remember that he's NOT a community agitator for ACORN anymore (or, well, maybe he really is, but he shouldn't be)......he was elected by the American People to represent the UNITED US.........so he should leave his agitator tendencies at the door and watch what comes out of his mouth!

[sgtmac_46]

Imagine that. President Public Image strikes again. LOL

He's probably going to try and make him an offer he can't refuse........i.e. fall on his sword and take one for his President!

[Archangel M]

This has been a lesson in how the world is full of people just waiting to be offended. If you dont give them a reason to be offended they will manufacture one...

[Steve]

I think you have it quite backwards there.........the most powerful man in the world attacking a civil servant without even knowing the facts is the issue........there IS an ABUSE OF POWER issue here........you just have a handle on the wrong end of it. I didn't realize that this had turned to a right wing, anti obama love fest. Sorry. I missed the cue.

As to the Sgt., yes we have the cop haters who are going to attack him regardless......Why is someone who disagrees with you a "cop hater?" I am nothing of the kind.
but any rational opinion points the blame CLEARLY on the behavior of Gates...........I have said more than once that I in no way condone Gates' behavior. I think it's pretty clear that he over-reacted.
Crowley isn't some 'Power Mad' rookie, he's a highly respected police officer who has been doing this job for over a decade without complaints of bias or abuse.........and he runs headlong in to Gates, who's got a chip on his shoulder the size of the TITANIC!And so he then lost his cool and acted in a manner that was, IMO, unprofessional. Come on. Even in your defense of him, you guys keep suggesting that it was retaliatory. He arrested Gates because a Gates had the temerity to disrespect him. I'm really at a loss to believe that I'm the only one who sees this as an obvious abuse of power. It's like trying to blame the torch for burning down the house. If Sgt. Crowley had left, there would be no fuel for the fire.

Yes, I know the general consensus is when you are a Harvard professor you can act like as big a jackass as you want with impunity.........I don't know about general consensus, but my opinion is that ANYONE should be able to act like a jackass. You, me, or a harvard professor. Jesus, people act like flaming turds all the time and don't get arrested for it.
but the officers responding to a report of a HOME BREAK-IN are doing their job by investigating that break-in, regardless of the opinions of those who think they can do the job better (though have never actually done it).And after having determined that Gates wasn't a burgler... ie, having DONE HIS JOB, he should have thanked him, apologized for the confusion and LEFT. No more problems.

Make no mistake about it......the ONLY folks who think this is unflattering to the police are the truly shameless Obama apologists, and they are VASTLY in the minority of public opinion on this one...........You and other Obama haters are the only one's bringing the president into this thread.
this WILL hurt the President far more than he intended it to hurt Sgt. Crowley.I guess you can only hope, but I think you've made your political agenda quite clear.

Barry needs to remember that he's NOT a community agitator for ACORN anymore (or, well, maybe he really is, but he shouldn't be)......he was elected by the American People to represent the UNITED US.........so he should leave his agitator tendencies at the door and watch what comes out of his mouth!:jediduel:


This has been a lesson in how the world is full of people just waiting to be offended. If you dont give them a reason to be offended they will manufacture one... Agreed. Maybe the next time Sgt. Crowley is offended, he'll manage to handle it in a more constructive way.

[celtic_crippler]

He's probably going to try and make him an offer he can't refuse........i.e. fall on his sword and take one for his President!

Well...you know us white Irish so-and-so's.... we can't refuse a beer.

I'm sorry-:cheers:-s'alright

[Empty Hands]

So he doesn't KNOW for a fact that the police are racist, but he's going to assume so and call them such out of ACORN/Community Organizer habit.

No, he didn't do so. What he said was the the police acted "stupidly in arresting someone in their own home." "Stupidly", not "racistly."

[celtic_crippler]

I don't think Obama intended any harm actually. I just think he stepped in it, or pulled a "Biden" if you will. :rolleyes:

At any rate, he's obviously recognized that it was a bad PR move and is trying to smooth things over. Especially after the news agencies jumped all over his comments.

SGT Crowley has never exhibited any racist behavior before, at least none that's been found to date. As a matter of fact, his record would indicate he is NOT one (refer to the example further back where he gave CPR to a black man.)

Gates indicated his home had been broken into before so it baffles me that he would react the way he did, unless you attribute his bad attitude to jet lag and frustration from being locked out.

I'm sure this story is far from over. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Empty Hands]

As a matter of fact, his record would indicate he is NOT one (refer to the example further back where he gave CPR to a black man.)

I agree that I haven't seen any evidence that Crowley is a racist.

But.

The example you make is a terrible one. Giving CPR to a dying player for the university you work for doesn't make you non-racist - it makes you human. Congratulations!

This is actually a pernicious aspect of the "racist/non-racist" debate that has developed. Racism is a skewed way of seeing certain groups of people, with attendant views and behaviors that may be conscious or unconscious. Most of us are thus racist to some degree, no one is perfectly un-prejudiced.

The dominant way of looking at racism now though is white hoods and lynching. When someone is called racist, everyone thinks "lyncher" and defends from that standpoint, when what they need to address is "has skewed viewpoints." You don't actively have to hate to be a racist. You don't have to kill blacks or drop the n-word every 5 minutes or turn the firehoses on. But that is what everyone thinks when they see "racist."

So that inhibits our national discussion about race. Everyone is terrified of being called racist, because they perceive that they are being called a monster. Crowley refusing to give CPR would make him a monster, giving prevents him from being a monster but not from being racist. Until everyone can internalize the difference, this issue goes nowhere.

Again, I have no idea if Crowley is or isn't a racist, your example just sparked my response.

[crushing]

Sounds like Sgt. Crowley and the Pres are arranging a meeting to "have a beer" at the Whitehouse.

Maybe the year round IPA from the 23rd Street Brewery? http://www.brew23.com/beer.htm

[CoryKS]

Maybe the year round IPA from the 23rd Street Brewery? http://www.brew23.com/beer.htm

Pale Ale?! That's racist!

[Carol]

Pale Ale?! That's racist!

Its not racist, its just acting stupidly ;)

[Archangel M]

Hmmm..according to CNN, now Gate's lawyer is saying "this is not about race"...BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Can you spell backfire? How about backpedaling?

[crushing]

.You and other Obama haters are the only one's bringing the president into this thread.

:BSmeter:

The President brought himself into the discussion when he basically called the cops stupid. Obama is now clarifying (back tracking on) his statements. Of course we knew the Obama haters would jump all over this, but even the biggest Obama supporters know he put his foot squarely in his mouth on this one, which is why he is 'clarifying' as he should be. I'm glad he recongized his mistake and is now working towards improving the situation instead of the opposite.

[crushing]

Pale Ale?! That's racist!

I'm glad I didn't link to Fitzpatrick's Brewing Company's Nutty Professor Brown Ale!!!

[CoryKS]

I'm glad I didn't link to Fitzpatrick's Brewing Company's Nutty Professor Brown Ale!!!

:rofl:

[Archangel M]

Hmm..If you are going to subscribe to the "someone was looking to be offended" theory... Who here had more reason to be "offended"? The homeowner who ASSUMED the cop was only there because he was a "black man in America" or the cop who was having his honor and his mother impugned by the "mad professor" for just doing his job??

PS-Im also getting tired of all the "Gates shouldn't have been arrested for being disorderly IN his own home" pap...if the mad professor had stayed in his home he wouldn't have been arrested.

[celtic_crippler]

Its not racist, its just acting stupidly ;)

no doubt...everybody knows lager's are better


Hmmm..according to CNN, now Gate's lawyer is saying "this is not about race"...BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Can you spell backfire? How about backpedaling?

But I thought it was about "how a black man is treated in America"?

Seems to me, Gates was the one that wanted to make it about race in the first place. Unless he now is saying he didn't say what he said.

[CoryKS]

no doubt...everybody knows lager's are better



But I thought it was about "how a black man is treated in America"?

Seems to me, Gates was the one that wanted to make it about race in the first place. Unless he now is saying he didn't say what he said.

"They took my words out of context" in 5...4...3...

[Steve]

:BSmeter:

The President brought himself into the discussion when he basically called the cops stupid. Obama is now clarifying (back tracking on) his statements. Of course we knew the Obama haters would jump all over this, but even the biggest Obama supporters know he put his foot squarely in his mouth on this one, which is why he is 'clarifying' as he should be. I'm glad he recongized his mistake and is now working towards improving the situation instead of the opposite.Sorry I wasn't clear. The Obama haters are steering the thread away from the original post. Better? I know it's more fun for a select few on this board to bash Obama, and certainly more convenient than admitting that the cop was as much at fault in this as the prof. Maybe if we keep this thread going for another page or two, you guys will convince yourselves that it was really Obama's fault it happened in the first place.

[Steve]

Hmm..If you are going to subscribe to the "someone was looking to be offended" theory... Who here had more reason to be "offended"? The homeowner who ASSUMED the cop was only there because he was a "black man in America" or the cop who was having his honor and his mother impugned by the "mad professor" for just doing his job??

PS-Im also getting tired of all the "Gates shouldn't have been arrested for being disorderly IN his own home" pap...if the mad professor had stayed in his home he wouldn't have been arrested.Poor Sgt. Crowley. He's the real victim in all of this. :angel:

[crushing]

Sorry I wasn't clear. The Obama haters are steering the thread away from the original post. Better? I know it's more fun for a select few on this board to bash Obama, and certainly more convenient than admitting that the cop was as much at fault in this as the prof. Maybe if we keep this thread going for another page or two, you guys will convince yourselves that it was really Obama's fault it happened in the first place.

:rolleyes:

I can see this is going nowhere.

[Archangel M]

I suggest that everybody read the Police Report:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates2.html

The "mad professor" acted like an ass right from the "get-go".

[Steve]

I suggest that everybody read the Police Report:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates2.html

The "mad professor" acted like an ass right from the "get-go".Archangel M, there are two accounts, both certainly biased. This is Sgt. Crowley's carefully written account.

But that aside, I think it's pretty clear Gates was an ass. In my mind, that's not even a consideration. If cops go around arresting people for being jackasses, we've got bigger problems than racism in this country.

[jks9199]

Actually, if you read the report, Sgt. Crowley was in an unmarked cruiser. It's not clear one way or the other whether or not he used lights or sirens. It's pretty clear from his report and that of the other officer (who would face criminal charges for filing a false report... unlike someone's comments to the press) that they tried pretty hard to defuse the situation

[jks9199]

Actually, if you read the report, Sgt. Crowley was in an unmarked cruiser. It's not clear one way or the other whether or not he used lights or sirens. It's pretty clear from his report and that of the other officer (who would face criminal charges for filing a false report... unlike someone's comments to the press) that they tried pretty hard to defuse the situation before m

[jks9199]

Actually, if you read the report, Sgt. Crowley was in an unmarked cruiser. It's not clear one way or the other whether or not he used lights or sirens. It's pretty clear from his report and that of the other officer (who would face criminal charges for filing a false report... unlike someone's comments to the press) that they tried pretty hard to defuse the situation before making a

[jks9199]

Actually, if you read the report, Sgt. Crowley was in an unmarked cruiser. It's not clear one way or the other whether or not he used lights or sirens. It's pretty clear from his report and that of the other officer (who would face criminal charges for filing a false report... unlike someone's comments to the press) that they tried pretty hard to defuse the situation before making an arrest.

Maybe my position biases me. But when you have a cop at your door -- it kind of trumps a phone call. And when the cop is trying to protect YOUR residence, you can at least cooperate slightly.

I'm not absolutely absolving Sgt. Crowley of responsibility. But there is no reason to believe, despite the insinuations, that race was a factor at all in this -- from the police side. It absolutely was a factor from Prof. Gates's side. I dare say that he'd be complaining even if Sgt. Crowley had simply looked at the ID, explained why he was there and left.

[Steve]

Actually, if you read the report, Sgt. Crowley was in an unmarked cruiser. It's not clear one way or the other whether or not he used lights or sirens. It's pretty clear from his report and that of the other officer (who would face criminal charges for filing a false report... unlike someone's comments to the press) that they tried pretty hard to defuse the situation before making an arrest.

Maybe my position biases me. But when you have a cop at your door -- it kind of trumps a phone call. And when the cop is trying to protect YOUR residence, you can at least cooperate slightly.

I'm not absolutely absolving Sgt. Crowley of responsibility. But there is no reason to believe, despite the insinuations, that race was a factor at all in this -- from the police side. It absolutely was a factor from Prof. Gates's side. I dare say that he'd be complaining even if Sgt. Crowley had simply looked at the ID, explained why he was there and left.I'm not sure if this was in response to me or not, but I've never accused (nor do I believe) that Crowley is a racist. What I believe, based upon everything I've read and heard so far, is that he overreacted to verbal abuse, allowed a civilian to irritate him, and abused his authority to put this civilian in his place. If anything, i agree that the only issue of racism was on the part of Gates.

However, Gates having a chip on his shoulder, verbally abusing Crowley or being racist in no way absolves Crowley from abusing his position of authority and not simply leaving once it was clear that Gates was not a crook.

[Archangel M]

"Abuse of his authority" is strictly a matter of the peanut galleries opinion here..what matters is if there was probable cause to effect an arrest. Could have the Sgt. walked off? Should he have walked off? Maybe..probably...I would like to think I would have.

Did the officer "have to walk away"...did he make an illegal arrest? I would say (and Im fairly confident many attorneys would say) NO.

[Steve]

"Abuse of his authority" is strictly a matter of the peanut galleries opinion here..what matters is if there was probable cause to effect an arrest. Could have the Sgt. walked off? Should he have walked off? Maybe..probably...I would like to think I would have.

Did the officer "have to walk away"...did he make an illegal arrest? I would say (and Im fairly confident many attorneys would say) NO.Oh, for crying out loud. I never suggested that Crowley broke a law. Jesus, the lengths you guys are going to in order to defend this guy's actions. Should he have walked off? Most definitely. Absolutely. I definitely would like to think that every LEO I know would have.

[yorkshirelad]

Whatever you say man, I'm with the Prof on this one. Yeah I'm gonna get loud and disorderly after showing ID.
Yes, you and the other race baters, including Obama, who had to do alot of back peddling to get himself out of his race bating quagmire.

This guy was arrested for his tirade against an officer on public property. He was arrested for disorderly conduct.

[jks9199]

And so he then lost his cool and acted in a manner that was, IMO, unprofessional. Come on. Even in your defense of him, you guys keep suggesting that it was retaliatory. He arrested Gates because a Gates had the temerity to disrespect him. I'm really at a loss to believe that I'm the only one who sees this as an obvious abuse of power.

I'd really like to know how you reached this conclusion. Yes, many of us who happen to be LEOs on this forum have said that there were problems on both sides of the communication here. But nothing I've written was intended to suggest that the arrest was any sort of retaliation, and I've seen nothing else supporting that idea. There's nothing to suggest that Prof. Gates was arrested simply because he didn't show Sgt. Crowley appropriate respect. Instead, when the professor's conduct became a public problem, and after he ignored warnings, the problem was solved. I see nothing that even hints at abuse of power!

The only abuse of power I see is Professor Gates using his connections to get press coverage and Presidential comment after he made a very public ass out of himself.

[seasoned]

Anybody in their right mind, when confronted by a police officer, for legitimate reasons, would comply fully. The officer asks the questions, you answer the questions, everyone is on the same page, things are straightened out, case closed. Once Gates, and his big mouth came outside, he was in the public domain, and subject to a whole new set of rules. Gates was the aggressor, and the officer was very professional in his dealings. Gates sealed his fate by continuing to be belligerent outside, and in public, hence, disorderly conduct. Police officers have a hard enough job, as does professors at Harvard. I'm sure if Gates was teaching a class and a student became mouthy, that student would be dealt with. Everyone has a job to do, but in this case the officer was in charge and doing his job, and it was Gates that should have said "thank you officer" turned around, and gone into his house, case closed.

[Archangel M]

Yes, you and the other race baters, including Obama, who had to do alot of back peddling to get himself out of his race bating quagmire.

This guy was arrested for his tirade against an officer on public property. He was arrested for disorderly conduct.

To be fair...while the "mad professor" was arrested for what he said/did in "public" it was from "private property" AKA-his porch. While it was his property, once you exit the house and make a scene you can be held responsible for your impact on the neighbors. You can't expect to be able to stand on your porch and swear/threaten/disturb every person that walks by. As the porch, front door, etc..portions of a house are generally open to the public (I can legally walk up to your door and ring the bell..thats what they are there for), I can typically walk up to/onto them and arrest your disorderly self.

[yorkshirelad]

To be fair...while the "mad professor" was arrested for what he said/did in "public" it was from "private property" AKA-his porch. While it was his property, once you exit the house and make a scene you can be held responsible for your impact on the neighbors. You can't expect to be able to stand on your porch and swear/threaten/disturb every person that walks by. As the porch, front door, etc..portions of a house are generally open to the public (I can legally walk up to your door and ring the bell..thats what they are there for), I can typically walk up to/onto them and arrest your disorderly self.
Fair comment. The facts are, that the arrest was justified. The guy had a stick up his ass because an LEO dared to ask for the ID of a black man, let alone a professor. If Gates were a white friend of Obama, do you think that there would have been the media hype that this incident attracted? Do you think the president would have made the "stupid" comment?

[Archangel M]

Yeah..I have to agree with ya there.

[Omar B]

The police siren and flashing lights are required by law to warn motorists and prevent accidents when responding to priority calls.......of which a home break in qualifies. Don't think so? How do you want the police to respond if your mother, wife or girlfriend is home alone and someone is breaking in their house? Think before you speak.

In addition, creating a disturbance is a very well defined term........following the officer out the door who is trying to leave, and screaming in your front yard certainly qualifies......AGAIN, think before you speak.

I did think before I spoke, and I still think that the arrest was over the line. stay mad about my opinion, that's fine. The cop should have used his judgment rather than run in the old guy, no matter how irate he may have been. Plus he didn't give his badge number, how was the old guy to be sure it was a cop and not some impersonator, we've had quite a few of those in NY, heck a lady got raped by one not 4 months ago.

[yorkshirelad]

I did think before I spoke, and I still think that the arrest was over the line. stay mad about my opinion, that's fine. The cop should have used his judgment rather than run in the old guy, no matter how irate he may have been. Plus he didn't give his badge number, how was the old guy to be sure it was a cop and not some impersonator, we've had quite a few of those in NY, heck a lady got raped by one not 4 months ago.
Impersonator :rofl:

[Omar B]

Yes, you and the other race baters, including Obama, who had to do alot of back peddling to get himself out of his race bating quagmire.
This guy was arrested for his tirade against an officer on public property. He was arrested for disorderly conduct.

Race bater now? LOL.

The old man asked for the cop's badge number and it was not given, in fact he walked out the door. As I stated before there have been robberies and rapes here in NY by men dressed as cops and there was even a firefighter too. He didn't show up in a cop car, some dude showing up asking for your ID and waiting to check out your place. Maybe he should have let the guy check out his place without getting proof positive who he was, or get on the phone and wait for however long to get a confirmation on the phone.

[seasoned]

Badge # is on the badge, name is on the name plate, on his shirt.

[Archangel M]

And once again you are confusing "using discretion" with "unlawful arrest"..."discretion" means "yes you have PC to make an arrest", but its probably better not to. By definition that means that an arrest would not be "over the line", just that its your opinion that it was unnecessary.

Two different things.

[yorkshirelad]

Race bater now? LOL.

The old man asked for the cop's badge number and it was not given, in fact he walked out the door. As I stated before there have been robberies and rapes here in NY by men dressed as cops and there was even a firefighter too. He didn't show up in a cop car, some dude showing up asking for your ID and waiting to check out your place. Maybe he should have let the guy check out his place without getting proof positive who he was, or get on the phone and wait for however long to get a confirmation on the phone.
If you're asking me to believe that Gates politely asked the cop for his badge number, for fear of being attacked, robbed or raped, you are high.
This whole thing is in the media because Professor Gates is black. Maybe instead of accusing the cop of being racist, you Gates and Obama should accuse him of being assholist. Surely that would better describe him. Gates has been on tv complaining about the fact that his arrest was racial as has Barack Obama. This is obviously not the case. The guy was being belligerent and created a scene that prompted a respectable, untarnished cop to arrest him. Instead of using this experience as a learning exercise, Gates decides to take his plight national and appear all over the media. This, in turn prompted Obama to respond in a totally inappropriate way. He has obviously been taking instruction from Biden.

[Omar B]

You seem to keep putting the word "race" in my mouth. I have not brought it up once in any of my posts in this topic(except when quoting you). I don't think he should have been arrested and that's the end of it.

[yorkshirelad]

You seem to keep putting the word "race" in my mouth. I have not brought it up once in any of my posts in this topic(except when quoting you). I don't think he should have been arrested and that's the end of it.
Alright Omar, If you want to lay this game, i'll ask you a question. Did you agree with what Obama said in his 2 press conferences about this incident?

[jks9199]

Sorry I wasn't clear. The Obama haters are steering the thread away from the original post. Better? I know it's more fun for a select few on this board to bash Obama, and certainly more convenient than admitting that the cop was as much at fault in this as the prof. Maybe if we keep this thread going for another page or two, you guys will convince yourselves that it was really Obama's fault it happened in the first place.
But Sgt. Crowley wasn't "as much at fault" as Professor Gates. Sgt. Crowley was doing his job, plainly identifiable as a police officer, and the professor was the one who caused the problems.

[jks9199]

Badge # is on the badge, name is on the name plate, on his shirt.
Not always, and not in every agency. I don't know about theirs. My badge doesn't have a number on it anywhere, for example. And I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt on reading a nameplate; they're generally only about 1/2 inch top to bottom, and often are shiny metal...

[seasoned]

Gates should thank God he didn't have something in his hand, and asked to drop it, or let me see your hands. In his state of mind and with all the anger he holds, things could have gone a lot worst for him.

[seasoned]

Not always, and not in every agency. I don't know about theirs. My badge doesn't have a number on it anywhere, for example. And I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt on reading a nameplate; they're generally only about 1/2 inch top to bottom, and often are shiny metal...
Good point, I carry for 2 agencies, one badge numbered and one not. Nameplate seems to always stick out loud and clear, when someone wants to know your name.

[Joab]

After reading all the police reports, hearing more and more about the story and accounts from the police officers involved, I will agree this whole situation was a lot more complicated than I previously thought. I do think that Professor Gates was wrong to play the race card, I don't think race had anything to do with this incident. It does seem to me that when the officer left after verifying that the man in the house was a resident he could have chosen to ignore the words of the professor and left and not arrested him. I think both sides over reacted to some degree with an unfortunate outcome.

Professor Gates I believe was clearly agitated, spoke loudly, indicated that he believed he was being targeted because he was black. I don't believe this was the case, breaking into a house needed to be investigated. The officer could have ignored Professor Gates and left, he did not have to arrest the professor, but chose to do so. I wasn't there, but I still think that would have been preferable. Hopefully the two will be able to hash this out over a beer in the White House with President Obama and progress will be made regarding proper communication with a police officer performing his duty and not over reacting to a difficult person by the police.

[Omar B]

Alright Omar, If you want to lay this game, i'll ask you a question. Did you agree with what Obama said in his 2 press conferences about this incident?

What game am I "laying?" I didn't see the 2 press conferences (weird work hours) but I don't agree with him calling the guy stupid. I'm not gonna agree that the guy deserved being arrested though if that's what you are looking for.

[yorkshirelad]

What game am I "laying?" I didn't see the 2 press conferences (weird work hours) but I don't agree with him calling the guy stupid. I'm not gonna agree that the guy deserved being arrested though if that's what you are looking for.
The game you are "laying" is that you deny that your judgement is skewed by Gates' race. If a white professor had been beligerent to the cop and had been arrested for disorderly conduct, it would never had made the news and if it did, (due to the ass in question being a mate of Obama's)Obama would have shrugged the question off with a "no comment" and YOU wouldn't care less about the arrestee. How do I know this? Because you're as transparent as a prison cell tv.

[Omar B]

I fail to see that, as I said, I've not brought up his race as an issue once in this thread. I'll let you in on a secret, I'm not black, I'm Indian. An old man got arrested in his own house, that's how I see it. I just caught onto your race bater comment that you must clearly think I'm sticking up for one of my "own" well that does away with your argument. Since you continuously are referencing race in relation to my posts, there you are.

[jks9199]

"Abuse of his authority" is strictly a matter of the peanut galleries opinion here..what matters is if there was probable cause to effect an arrest. Could have the Sgt. walked off? Should he have walked off? Maybe..probably...I would like to think I would have.

Did the officer "have to walk away"...did he make an illegal arrest? I would say (and Im fairly confident many attorneys would say) NO.
I'm quite confident it wasn't an illegal arrest.

And I've been in similiar situations, as you probably have, too. Sometimes, I've walked away. Sometimes, I've turned somebody into a pretzel on the ground. Most often, it's been somewhere in the middle. It might be surprising how seldom my PERSONAL ego was involved in the decision of what to do, though.

See, it's a balancing game. I have to maintain the authority of the position for myself AND for others. Sometimes, I can let a blowhard bluster and simply go on my way. He'll blow himself out and be done. But, sometimes, if I let that loudmouth get away with his attitude with me -- the next cop to deal with him or his buddies is only going to get more and worse. And then someone gets hurt... because it will eventually reach the point where the only language that is understood is force. I'll even admit to erring on both sides in different instances.

It's not easy. Sgt. Crowley was justified and did have probable cause to make the arrest. It may not have been an ideal solution -- but it did solve the problem.

[Archangel M]

Good article at:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YjJiZGY2NmQzNjIzM2Q4YTM1YmNmYjRmNGY2ZGQwNzQ=


But let us examine the issue of racial profiling as it pertains — or doesn’t — to Mr. Gates’s arrest. As I wrote (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NDg0ZDYxOGIxNGM3ZDJjZTMxZWYwZDYyNGU3Y2MwNmE=) on Wednesday, the suggestion that Gates was “profiled” is ludicrous. Gates was not simply driving or walking along and into the awareness of some racist cop looking to exert authority over him. Far from it. Rather, a woman had phoned the Cambridge police to report she had seen two black men attempting to force entry into a home. Sergeant James Crowley was in the area and was the first officer to respond to the call. After the witness informed him of her observations, Crowley saw a black man inside the home. No reasonable person would deny that at that moment, Sgt. Crowley had more than the sufficient amount of “reasonable suspicion,” as we say in the trade, required to investigate and even detain the man for the length of time necessary to determine if he was in fact a burglar. And yes, Sgt. Crowley was fully justified in making a warrantless entry into the home if necessary.

A man of ordinary sensibilities, having forced his way into his own home in broad daylight, might consider the possibility that he was seen doing so by someone who would misinterpret his actions and summon the police. Mr. Gates apparently failed to foresee such a contingency and instead assumed dark motives on the part of Sgt. Crowley. In fact, if Crowley’s account is accurate, it was Gates who profiled him, imputing racial animus as the reason for the sergeant’s presence on the front porch. When Crowley made the reasonable and tactically sound request for Gates to step out onto the porch, Gates, by his own account (http://www.theroot.com/print/19236?page=0%2C0), refused to do so. “I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association,” Gates told a reporter from The Root (http://www.theroot.com/). “All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’” Thus the stage was set for a test of wills, one that ultimately saw Gates arrested and carted off to the jug for a few hours.

[sgtmac_46]

I fail to see that, as I said, I've not brought up his race as an issue once in this thread. I'll let you in on a secret, I'm not black, I'm Indian. An old man got arrested in his own house, that's how I see it. I just caught onto your race bater comment that you must clearly think I'm sticking up for one of my "own" well that does away with your argument. Since you continuously are referencing race in relation to my posts, there you are.
You didn't bring race in to this issue.......Obama and Gates introduced that canard. In fact it was Gates' own racist views that created this situation.

[sgtmac_46]

Badge # is on the badge, name is on the name plate, on his shirt. Exactly, and what's more I actually believe Crowley when he says he identified himself when he showed up. 'I'm Sgt. Crowley with the Cambridge police department'.......

[sgtmac_46]

Oh, for crying out loud. I never suggested that Crowley broke a law. Jesus, the lengths you guys are going to in order to defend this guy's actions. Should he have walked off? Most definitely. Absolutely. I definitely would like to think that every LEO I know would have.

Walk off from what? A burglary in progress? Funny how nobody involved is required to exercise personality responsibility in this situation in your mind, INCLUDING the President of the United States, EXCEPT the officer involved who was trying to do his job.........that's pretty telling.

The most powerful man on the PLANET isn't required to exercise intelligence and comment sense in front of his teleprompter......BUT a police officer in a volatile situation MUST please every member of society.

[sgtmac_46]

Gates was loud and abrasive long before showing his ID.........the folks who identify with the professor in this situation must have an identical chip on their shoulder the size of Mt. Everest.........and probably is used to creating these type of situations.


Here's a hint......how about instead of assuming that the 'white cop' is here to racial profile the black man, use your BRAIN and realize he's here because the neighbor called about someone breaking in to your HOUSE, pull your head out of your nether regions, say 'Oh, ok officer, that was just me, my door was stuck, here's my identification, is there anything else I can do for you?'

But for SOME folks, being a jackass in these situations is viewed as a BIRTH RIGHT! Anyone who thinks that wait is a racist IDIOT pure and simple. The title of this thread should be changed to 'Racist Professor', because that's the root of the issue.....Gates is a blithering racist who sees SKIN COLOR even before common sense! And the folks attacking Sgt. Crowley are doing their best to SHIELD that QUITE OBVIOUS REALITY that Gates Racism, regardless of what one thinks of Sgt. Crowley's response to his actions, was the CORE OF THE INCIDENT!

Because even if we say that perhaps Sgt. Crowley overreacted to Gates racist tirade.......Gates is STILL A RACIST! And the President's defense of an obvious racist is disappointing, but not surprising given his circle of intimates. The irony is that no one seriously disagrees with the fact that Gates is a racist........it's quite clear. His apologists just justify it by the fact that in years past Gates was the victim of racism, so now his own racist views are justified.......really?!

[MJS]

I know I posted this question a while back and I know Sgtmac46 did as well, and AFAIK it still hasnt been answered, so here goes again. I find it interesting that some are talking about the response of the PD and how that supposedly caused more of a disturbance, yet I'm wondering....how do you think the cops should respond to a call like that? If they took their time and something went wrong, we all know damn well that someone would raise a stink. So, the cops go 'code' to the call, most likely shut down prior to getting to the area, and somehow this is what caused the good 'ol Prof to get pissed off? Please. *rolls eyes*

[elder999]

I think the title of the thread is backwards.

It should read: Racist Professor and Combative Cop.

1) Mass. law is clear: when asked for name and badge number, officers have to give it.

2) There was nothing overtly racist in the cop's response-he got a burglary call, he had to check it out.

3)The Prof. was a bunch of things: sick, tired, old, uncooperative, pissed off at having to break his own door down, and, well, black. He naturally didn't respond well. If he had, none of this would happen.

4) After the cop had it sorted out, and was leaving, he should have just kept going-they handcuffed the man on his porch,not the sidewalk, and, frankly, arrested him for not repsecting the cop's authrority, nothing more. He hadn't done anything but yell at the cop, and he'd have stopped if the cop just left.

Bad calls on both sides, no "profiling" involved.


The game you are "laying" is that you deny that your judgement is skewed by Gates' race. If a white professor had been beligerent to the cop and had been arrested for disorderly conduct, it would never had made the news and if it did, (due to the ass in question being a mate of Obama's)Obama would have shrugged the question off with a "no comment" and YOU wouldn't care less about the arrestee. How do I know this? Because you're as transparent as a prison cell tv.

Studies have shown that people tend to align themselves in conflict with people of their same perceived race. It's that simple-wrong and right don't enter into it, and sometimes that "perceived race" is blue. Obama should have kept his mouth shut, but he clearly doesn't know how to: a more "Presidential" thing to do would have been to offer no comment on a local affair that he didn't have all the facts about. He is, however, entitled to his opinion, whatever factors got him there, and however misguided it might be. To say the police acted "stupidly" might be a bit over reaching, but Sgt. Crowley was clearly fed up, and that's the place he acted from, not any particular good judgement: how likely is a riot in such a neighborhood? How likely would the Prof. be to keep "shouting" (there seems to be some question about his ability to raise his voice, due to illness) once the object of his anger had departed the scene?

As for the Prof. himself, well, it's not the way I'd have handled it, or the way I've handled it in the past. Personally, though, I'm well known for not losing my cool-for being unflappable. I think it's kind of a given, working with the things that I do, that one maintain the majority of one's emotional responses internally,and act outwardly as appropriate to the situation. That's me, though-and I have to say that, while externally I've been compliant and cooperative in my interactions with the police, and most of those have generally been more than pleasant, without a hint of "racial" anything, some of them, back in New York, well, some of them had me seething internally. A man gets confronted in his own home, told to step out on the porch, and, while a cooler head (like mine) might have immediately connected the arrival of the police with the forcing of the front door and simply cooperated-or even maliciously complied in the hopes that he'd be arrested for breaking into his own home, and thus could really sue-Skip Gates clearly could not.

[Jade Tigress]

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[yorkshirelad]

I fail to see that, as I said, I've not brought up his race as an issue once in this thread. I'll let you in on a secret, I'm not black, I'm Indian. An old man got arrested in his own house, that's how I see it. I just caught onto your race bater comment that you must clearly think I'm sticking up for one of my "own" well that does away with your argument. Since you continuously are referencing race in relation to my posts, there you are.
Hello, I can see your avatar, so I know you're not black, but that's inconsequential. The only reason that this incident is even an issue is because of the race componant. To suggest otherwise is insulting to the intelligence of everyone here.

[yorkshirelad]

I think the title of the thread is backwards.

It should read: Racist Professor and Combative Cop.

1) Mass. law is clear: when asked for name and badge number, officers have to give it.

2) There was nothing overtly racist in the cop's response-he got a burglary call, he had to check it out.

3)The Prof. was a bunch of things: sick, tired, old, uncooperative, pissed off at having to break his own door down, and, well, black. He naturally didn't respond well. If he had, none of this would happen.

4) After the cop had it sorted out, and was leaving, he should have just kept going-they handcuffed the man on his porch,not the sidewalk, and, frankly, arrested him for not repsecting the cop's authrority, nothing more. He hadn't done anything but yell at the cop, and he'd have stopped if the cop just left.

Bad calls on both sides, no "profiling" involved.



Studies have shown that people tend to align themselves in conflict with people of their same perceived race. It's that simple-wrong and right don't enter into it, and sometimes that "perceived race" is blue. Obama should have kept his mouth shut, but he clearly doesn't know how to: a more "Presidential" thing to do would have been to offer no comment on a local affair that he didn't have all the facts about. He is, however, entitled to his opinion, whatever factors got him there, and however misguided it might be. To say the police acted "stupidly" might be a bit over reaching, but Sgt. Crowley was clearly fed up, and that's the place he acted from, not any particular good judgement: how likely is a riot in such a neighborhood? How likely would the Prof. be to keep "shouting" (there seems to be some question about his ability to raise his voice, due to illness) once the object of his anger had departed the scene?

As for the Prof. himself, well, it's not the way I'd have handled it, or the way I've handled it in the past. Personally, though, I'm well known for not losing my cool-for being unflappable. I think it's kind of a given, working with the things that I do, that one maintain the majority of one's emotional responses internally,and act outwardly as appropriate to the situation. That's me, though-and I have to say that, while externally I've been compliant and cooperative in my interactions with the police, and most of those have generally been more than pleasant, without a hint of "racial" anything, some of them, back in New York, well, some of them had me seething internally. A man gets confronted in his own home, told to step out on the porch, and, while a cooler head (like mine) might have immediately connected the arrival of the police with the forcing of the front door and simply cooperated-or even maliciously complied in the hopes that he'd be arrested for breaking into his own home, and thus could really sue-Skip Gates clearly could not.
Very well put! This is obviously an emotional subject for everyone involved. We all see things through our own unique pair of tinted spectacles. The above post has put all perspectives into....well, perspective.

[sgtmac_46]

I think the title of the thread is backwards.

It should read: Racist Professor and Combative Cop.

1) Mass. law is clear: when asked for name and badge number, officers have to give it.

2) There was nothing overtly racist in the cop's response-he got a burglary call, he had to check it out.

3)The Prof. was a bunch of things: sick, tired, old, uncooperative, pissed off at having to break his own door down, and, well, black. He naturally didn't respond well. If he had, none of this would happen.

4) After the cop had it sorted out, and was leaving, he should have just kept going-they handcuffed the man on his porch,not the sidewalk, and, frankly, arrested him for not repsecting the cop's authrority, nothing more. He hadn't done anything but yell at the cop, and he'd have stopped if the cop just left.

Bad calls on both sides, no "profiling" involved.



Studies have shown that people tend to align themselves in conflict with people of their same perceived race. It's that simple-wrong and right don't enter into it, and sometimes that "perceived race" is blue. Obama should have kept his mouth shut, but he clearly doesn't know how to: a more "Presidential" thing to do would have been to offer no comment on a local affair that he didn't have all the facts about. He is, however, entitled to his opinion, whatever factors got him there, and however misguided it might be. To say the police acted "stupidly" might be a bit over reaching, but Sgt. Crowley was clearly fed up, and that's the place he acted from, not any particular good judgement: how likely is a riot in such a neighborhood? How likely would the Prof. be to keep "shouting" (there seems to be some question about his ability to raise his voice, due to illness) once the object of his anger had departed the scene?

As for the Prof. himself, well, it's not the way I'd have handled it, or the way I've handled it in the past. Personally, though, I'm well known for not losing my cool-for being unflappable. I think it's kind of a given, working with the things that I do, that one maintain the majority of one's emotional responses internally,and act outwardly as appropriate to the situation. That's me, though-and I have to say that, while externally I've been compliant and cooperative in my interactions with the police, and most of those have generally been more than pleasant, without a hint of "racial" anything, some of them, back in New York, well, some of them had me seething internally. A man gets confronted in his own home, told to step out on the porch, and, while a cooler head (like mine) might have immediately connected the arrival of the police with the forcing of the front door and simply cooperated-or even maliciously complied in the hopes that he'd be arrested for breaking into his own home, and thus could really sue-Skip Gates clearly could not.


Good points.......though I wouldn't say that we just identify with those of the same race........it would be more accurate to say we identify with those most like ourselves, race being one component of that.......and in Obama's case that apparently extends to identifying with people who say stupid things before thinking about them.


As for Gates........one would believe that a 'learned' and intelligent Harvard Professor would be able to control himself better........or at least come up with a better taunt for the officer than talking about his 'Mama'......

[Omar B]

Hello, I can see your avatar, so I know you're not black, but that's inconsequential. The only reason that this incident is even an issue is because of the race componant. To suggest otherwise is insulting to the intelligence of everyone here.

You were the one calling me a "race bater" man. I presented what I thought on the issue of the old man being arrested and a couple cops within this thread have said that situations like this did not have to end in arrest. You seemed to follow my posts screaming race and Obama though.

[Carol]

As far as the charges being dropped. That is NOT the call of the police agency. Only the Prosecuting Attorney's Office can do that. One of the reasons that they can dismiss charges is "would not be in the best interest of the public". They knew that they would have a crap storm if they continued on with the charges. They knew it would be in THEIR best interest to make it go away.

But police agencies ca (and do) make recommendations to the District Attorney office that the charges be dropped, do they not?

And, when the police makes such a recommendation, this carries considerable weight with the DA's office, does it not?



A prosecutor is dropping a charge against prominent Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. after Cambridge, Massachusetts, and the city's police department recommended that the matter not be pursued.http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/21/massachusetts.harvard.professor.arrested/

[jks9199]

But police agencies ca (and do) make recommendations to the District Attorney office that the charges be dropped, do they not?

And, when the police makes such a recommendation, this carries considerable weight with the DA's office, does it not?


http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/21/massachusetts.harvard.professor.arrested/
It all depends. I know some jurisdictions that the prosecutors seldom listen to the officers when they make a request like that, unless there's on hell of a good reason. And I know others that'll drop a charge without a question.

[yorkshirelad]

You were the one calling me a "race bater" man. I presented what I thought on the issue of the old man being arrested and a couple cops within this thread have said that situations like this did not have to end in arrest. You seemed to follow my posts screaming race and Obama though.
I stand by my remarks.

[jks9199]

Allow me a small, unofficial observation... this thread is 13 pages long. On a VERY heated topic and issue. Yet, by and large, it's remained civil. I'm impressed! People are doing a fantastic job of discussing the issues, and not pulling personalities into it. Great job, everyone!

[MJS]

The General Law of Massachusetts

PART I. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT


TITLE VII. CITIES, TOWNS AND DISTRICTS


CHAPTER 41. OFFICERS AND EMPLOYEES OF CITIES, TOWNS AND DISTRICTS


POLICE OFFICERS


Chapter 41: Section 98D. Identification cards


Section 98D. Each city or town shall issue to every full time police officer employed by it an identification card bearing his photograph and the municipal seal. Such card shall be carried on the officer’s person, and shall be exhibited upon lawful request for purposes of identification.
source: Here are the links to the relevant Mass. laws http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/41-98d.htm (http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/41-98d.htm) and http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/41-98c.htm (http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/41-98c.htm)

Thanks. :) As far as showing this goes, as I said, it is a courtesy, however, in the middle of an investigation, providing that info, IMO, takes a back seat. I highly doubt in this case, the Prof was doubting that the officers in front of him were fake. He was most likely asking because he was pissed and wanted to file a complaint.

[Big Don]

The Smoking Gun has the POLICE REPORT. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0723092gates1.html)

I think the title of the thread is backwards.

It should read: Racist Professor and Combative Cop.
Almost, it should read Racist, combative professor and Cop.
There was NO racism by the police. NONE. How can I say that? They weren't accosting random black people. They only spoke to the ONLY person inside the house where the BREAK IN was reported. He happened to be black, and, by the way, an ass, but, the cops talked to him ONLY because a break in was reported AT THAT HOUSE and he was the only one AT THAT HOUSE. This whole mess would have been nothing had he not been a jackass.

[sgtmac_46]

You were the one calling me a "race bater" man. I presented what I thought on the issue of the old man being arrested and a couple cops within this thread have said that situations like this did not have to end in arrest. You seemed to follow my posts screaming race and Obama though.

For the record I don't remotely believe that you are a race baiter......it's painfully obvious, however, that Gates is, and far more unfortunately, so is our President.

As to the arrest, many situations don't have to end in arrest.....this situation being the same......but it is GATES most responsible for his own arrest. Furthermore, the worst allegation that one can make against Sgt. Crowley is that yes, he had the authority to arrest Gates (no one has intelligently argued that Gates wasn't legally subject to arrest), but that he should have used more discretion.......but even those arguing that point can't make a case that Sgt. Crowley did what he did out of any bias or general malice.........rather, they claim he responded to a volatile situation in a way they don't imagine themselves responding to.........that's all well and good, we are each entitled to our opinions.......but the REAL issue in this case is the ARROGANT and RECKLESS comments of our commander-in-chief........comments that show him UTTERLY unfit for the office he currently occupies.

[sgtmac_46]

Thanks. :) As far as showing this goes, as I said, it is a courtesy, however, in the middle of an investigation, providing that info, IMO, takes a back seat. I highly doubt in this case, the Prof was doubting that the officers in front of him were fake. He was most likely asking because he was pissed and wanted to file a complaint.

I don't even think he was asking because he wanted to file a complaint, I think the officer had already identified himself...probably several times.....I think he was asking for the EXACT same reason he was referring to Sgt. Crowley's mother.......it was part of his taunting diatribe........

[Omar B]

For the record I don't remotely believe that you are a race baiter......it's painfully obvious, however, that Gates is, and far more unfortunately, so is our President.

As to the arrest, many situations don't have to end in arrest.....this situation being the same......but it is GATES most responsible for his own arrest. Furthermore, the worst allegation that one can make against Sgt. Crowley is that yes, he had the authority to arrest Gates (no one has intelligently argued that Gates wasn't legally subject to arrest), but that he should have used more discretion.......but even those arguing that point can't make a case that Sgt. Crowley did what he did out of any bias or general malice.........rather, they claim he responded to a volatile situation in a way they don't imagine themselves responding to.........that's all well and good, we are each entitled to our opinions.......but the REAL issue in this case is the ARROGANT and RECKLESS comments of our commander-in-chief........comments that show him UTTERLY unfit for the office he currently occupies.

Yeah man, I see what you are saying. I also believe that it didn't have to end in arrest. Some in this thread would frame me as a race bater for that. Having a different opinion makes me some sort of race bater now.

[yorkshirelad]

Yeah man, I see what you are saying. I also believe that it didn't have to end in arrest. Some in this thread would frame me as a race bater for that. Having a different opinion makes me some sort of race bater now.
Listen, anyone here who takes sides with the Professor is a race bater. The facts show quite clearly that the arrest (although not essential) was justified. That is the plain and simple truth. You yourself have said before on a previous thread Omar, that you have been targetted because of the way look. If we were to go back say, a year and this was a white friend of George Bush, the media would've painted the professor as an ******* and Bush would've been crucified in the media for defending his eccentric, angry friend.
Now given that the arrest was justified and that you have been "targetted", it doesn't take Columbo to deduce that your decision to support Gates has a racial componant. So I stand by my words.

[Omar B]

What happened to me has no bearing on how I feel about as you put it a "not essential" arrest. As I said before, my best friend's dad is an NYPD detective, my past experience with cops has not been more shaded by by his influence than anything else. And I say again, using your words, the arrest was "not essential." Not everyone who gets loud gets arrested, not everyone who speeds gets a ticket, it didn't have to play out how it did. I stand by that.

[yorkshirelad]

[quote=Omar B;1203311] my best friend's dad is an NYPD detective, quote]
I remember hearing many a racist say, "I'm not a racist, I have black friends". Are you honestly trying to tell me that Gates' skin colour has no bearing on your opinion of this case?

[jks9199]

What happened to me has no bearing on how I feel about as you put it a "not essential" arrest. As I said before, my best friend's dad is an NYPD detective, my past experience with cops has not been more shaded by by his influence than anything else. And I say again, using your words, the arrest was "not essential." Not everyone who gets loud gets arrested, not everyone who speeds gets a ticket, it didn't have to play out how it did. I stand by that.
By the same reasoning, not everyone who has a cop come to their door investigating a reported burglary gets belligerent and accuses the cop of targeting them solely because of their race. Both sides could have handled this differently.

To be very blunt... In my experience, most of the time when someone tries to say that I targeted them for attention solely because of their race -- it's an attempt to distract me from the real reason I stopped them. They want me to hurry up and end the contact, and not look too deeply because they actually ARE up to something or they know they're wrong and want me to be afraid to ticket them...

[sgtmac_46]

Yeah man, I see what you are saying. I also believe that it didn't have to end in arrest. Some in this thread would frame me as a race bater for that. Having a different opinion makes me some sort of race bater now.
Yeah, it didn't have to end in arrest.....Gates could have used the brain that one would expect a Harvard Professor to have!

The only reason some folks are claiming that is that you've aligned yourself on this topic with a couple of obvious race baiters. I understand, however, that you can agree with their position without agreeing with their whole position.

At the end of the day whatever one believes about Sgt. Crowley's arrest of Gates, it's obvious that Crowley wasn't motivated by racism........the same cannot be said for Gates........or Obama for that matter.

[celtic_crippler]

It seems like the key issue with most is whether or not Gates should have been arrested for disorderly conduct and whether or not Sgt. Crowley's decision to do so may have been based on Gate's race. Is that it?

Thus far, the only evidence supporting anyone playing the "race card" points to Gates. It appears that Gates flew off the handle and did not exhibit the mature and rational behavior one would expect of a highly educated individual.

However, the debate seems to be focused on whether Dr. Gates tantrum necessitated an arrest.



Examples of Disorderly Conduct

Disorderly conduct offenses vary widely by state. Here are some of the most common acts that are considered disorderly conduct offenses:

Public drunkenness
Inciting a riot
disturbance of the peace
loitering in certain areas
fighting (http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/terms/fighting.html) / physical altercations
obstructing traffic
use of extremely obscene or abusive language
loud or unreasonable noise
So...was Dr. Gates "disturbing the peace" by throwing a tantrum?

Did Dr. Gates use "abusive language" when he said to Sgt. Crowley among other things, "...I'll meet yo' momma outside!"

Really? A Harvard Professor resorting to "yo momma" attacks? I'd be embarrassed as hell if I were he.

[MJS]

I don't even think he was asking because he wanted to file a complaint, I think the officer had already identified himself...probably several times.....I think he was asking for the EXACT same reason he was referring to Sgt. Crowley's mother.......it was part of his taunting diatribe........

You're probably right. And then this guy wonders why he gont arrested for disorderly. *shrug*

[sgtmac_46]

By the same reasoning, not everyone who has a cop come to their door investigating a reported burglary gets belligerent and accuses the cop of targeting them solely because of their race. Both sides could have handled this differently.

To be very blunt... In my experience, most of the time when someone tries to say that I targeted them for attention solely because of their race -- it's an attempt to distract me from the real reason I stopped them. They want me to hurry up and end the contact, and not look too deeply because they actually ARE up to something or they know they're wrong and want me to be afraid to ticket them...

Exactly.....the 'You're just messing with me because i'm a <insert group here>' statement is really an attempt to bluff and bully the officer in to looking no further in to the situation.........even white dirtbags try it.......many folks with a chip on their shoulder attempt to personalize every encounter with the police as if the police are somehow targeting them for something OTHER than what really happened.

[MJS]

Yeah man, I see what you are saying. I also believe that it didn't have to end in arrest. Some in this thread would frame me as a race bater for that. Having a different opinion makes me some sort of race bater now.

You're right...it didn't have to end in arrest, and I'd be willing to go so far as to say that there are many people who could avoid alot of what happens, if they took a bit of Chris Rocks advice. Lets see..things such as a) shut the **** up, b) be polite. ;) That video IMO is designed to be a spoof, a comedy, to make folks laugh, but if you stop and think about it, so much applies to RL.

[sgtmac_46]

It seems like the key issue with most is whether or not Gates should have been arrested for disorderly conduct and whether or not Sgt. Crowley's decision to do so may have been based on Gate's race. Is that it?

Thus far, the only evidence supporting anyone playing the "race card" points to Gates. It appears that Gates flew off the handle and did not exhibit the mature and rational behavior one would expect of a highly educated individual.

However, the debate seems to be focused on whether Dr. Gates tantrum necessitated an arrest.

So...was Dr. Gates "disturbing the peace" by throwing a tantrum?

Did Dr. Gates use "abusive language" when he said to Sgt. Crowley among other things, "...I'll meet yo' momma outside!"

Really? A Harvard Professor resorting to "yo momma" attacks? I'd be embarrassed as hell if I were he. Very good point!

Lets be clear.......this discussion has split up in to camps of various interests. The apologists for Obama and Gates want to fixate on whether Gates 'needed' to be arrested (they won't even argue that an arrest wasn't technically justified given his behavior)..........but that's not what made this case NATIONAL NEWS........two things did.......Gates, a Harvard Professor, spewing racist invectives, and the most powerful man on the planet losing ALL OBJECTIVITY to lash out with equally stupid charges of racism, while admitting he knew nothing about the situation.


At the end of the day the issue here is Obama, and his VERY UNPRESIDENTIAL behavior.......not whether Sgt. Crowley was goaded in to arresting Gates, when he shouldn't have or even if Gates is an obvious racist........it was Obama's behavior, pure and simple, that showed the absolute WORST judgement in this situation........whereas BOTH Gates and Sgt. Crowley were thrust in to a situation that was heated, Obama had the opportunity to comment or not with the objectivity of distance.......and STILL said about the stupidest thing he possibly could!

[sgtmac_46]

You're right...it didn't have to end in arrest, and I'd be willing to go so far as to say that there are many people who could avoid alot of what happens, if they took a bit of Chris Rocks advice. Lets see..things such as a) shut the **** up, b) be polite. ;) That video IMO is designed to be a spoof, a comedy, to make folks laugh, but if you stop and think about it, so much applies to RL.

Gates didn't have to be polite........he could have presented his identification, resolved the situation, and asked at the end

'Are we finished here, Officer?'

'Yes sir, we are.'

'Good.....now can you get out of my house, i've got a very busy day tomorrow'.

[Omar B]

[quote=Omar B;1203311] my best friend's dad is an NYPD detective, quote]
I remember hearing many a racist say, "I'm not a racist, I have black friends". Are you honestly trying to tell me that Gates' skin colour has no bearing on your opinion of this case?

Nope, it does not. As much as you would love to believe I'm a member of the black panther movement supporting him just because he's black, no. Having a different opinion does not mean I'm playing up some race thing, it's just a different opinion, if you can't handle that then tough.

[Big Don]

[quote=yorkshirelad;1203314]

Nope, it does not. As much as you would love to believe I'm a member of the black panther movement supporting him just because he's black, no. Having a different opinion does not mean I'm playing up some race thing, it's just a different opinion, if you can't handle that then tough.
So, what exactly, in your opinion, justifies his behavior?


BTW, FYI for ALL of you Masters, when discussing bears, race or fish, it is BAITING ergo: BAITER, not BATER, although, given the choice, I'd rather Batter.

[Big Don]

The ONLY racial Bias in this case is that of Mr Gates and President Obama.
The Officers questioned the man they found inside the house where the break in was reported.
They were not harassing black people at random.
Gates violated RULE #89:
Don't Start Nothin', Won't Be Nothin'!

[jks9199]

Very good point!

Lets be clear.......this discussion has split up in to camps of various interests. The apologists for Obama and Gates want to fixate on whether Gates 'needed' to be arrested (they won't even argue that an arrest wasn't technically justified given his behavior)..........but that's not what made this case NATIONAL NEWS........two things did.......Gates, a Harvard Professor, spewing racist invectives, and the most powerful man on the planet losing ALL OBJECTIVITY to lash out with equally stupid charges of racism, while admitting he knew nothing about the situation.


At the end of the day the issue here is Obama, and his VERY UNPRESIDENTIAL behavior.......not whether Sgt. Crowley was goaded in to arresting Gates, when he shouldn't have or even if Gates is an obvious racist........it was Obama's behavior, pure and simple, that showed the absolute WORST judgement in this situation........whereas BOTH Gates and Sgt. Crowley were thrust in to a situation that was heated, Obama had the opportunity to comment or not with the objectivity of distance.......and STILL said about the stupidest thing he possibly could!
You know what -- I'll give President Obama a little bit of leeway. I'll grant that HIS comments may not have been tied to Professor Gates's race, but merely their friendship. I've stood up for friends before without knowing all the details, and discovered later I was wrong. Embarrassing -- but I'm human. I'll give President Obama that much slack... But, as PRESIDENT, he should have known better than to get involved. "I don't have the details, and I'm sorry my friend had to go through that" would have been fine. He would have shown public support for his friend without attacking the police. And you cannot tell me that as skilled an orator as President Obama, taking the apparent care with what to say that seems to be in the video, just put his foot in his mouth.

[Omar B]

[quote=Omar B;1203333]
So, what exactly, in your opinion, justifies his behavior?
BTW, FYI for ALL of you Masters, when discussing bears, race or fish, it is BAITING ergo: BAITER, not BATER, although, given the choice, I'd rather Batter.

I didn't justify his behavior. I just said that it did not have to end like that, people don't always get arrested or get tickets, they can get a warning. Didn't think I applauded or justified anyone's actions.

[geezer]

The fact that this relatively minor affair has already generated over 15 pages of heated discussion is evidence that the race issues are still a huge problem for us as a nation. And, beyond that, the issue is being exploited by certain individuals who seem to bear an almost irrational hatred for our President, accusing him of being incompetant and "unfit for office" ...because of this one minor mistep! I give irrational Obama haters get the same response I gave the irrational Bush haters. I ignore them.

As for the rest of us, who are not reacting solely out of our emotional dislike of the President, what is so hard to understand about an accomplished and esteemed Black man still being human and losing his cool when he thinks he's being singled out by the cops again for his race? I say 'again' because you know damn well people get singled out for the color of their skin, their age, their accent, their dress, the cars they drive, ...or you name it. It happens. And it ticks you off. So maybe that's why Professor Gates lost his cool.

And what about Officer Crowley? He apparently has worked very hard to be a fair cop, and an expert on race relations in police work. Yet is it so hard to understand that he's human too? In spite of himself, when Gates went off on his tirade, he got so ticked off that he went ahead and made the legal, but unecessary decision to arrest the Prof?

And are the President's comments really that hard to understand either? I mean he started right off by saying that he probably couldn't be totally objective since Professor Gates was a personal friend, he overstepped a bit by calling the actions of the police "stupid"... although they certainly weren't the wisest way to resolve this situation. And he noted the statistical facts that underly the distrust many in the Black community have for the police. Hell, what's so bad about that? Sure, it wasn't as polished a political statement as you might like. Maybe he also let his emotions color his speech a bit. Did any of you know that he's a Black man? Surprise! Maybe he has also felt the sting of prejudice a few times. Maybe it isn't so easy being bi-racial in America either.

Anyway, I say cut all three of the parties involved a little slack and let's get past this and back to issues of greater importance. Now, will somebody invite me to the Whitehouse for a beer?

[dnovice]

My opinion. The cop might or might not have been a racist but he is retarded. (I've nothing against police officers as whole, I worked with them side by side.) I think obama was right in his first response that he had to eventually retract.

Sure, its fine that the cops showed up since a neighbor called about suspicious men trying to break into gates home. Sure, its fine that the cop asked for identification. However, the moment the cop ascertained that Gates was the owner of the house, regardless of how irate or high pitched the professors voice was he should explained to the professor that "he came because of a call and that next time gates should calmly talk to him." Then the cop should have walked away.

Feeling that you are being picked on because of who you are "whether you are black, white, hispanic can make you very irate. If you are going to racial profile (which is not necessarily racism) then you must expect the angry backlash that you will get from some innocent people, and handle it. A whole sgt couldn't do that. That saddens me.

[Big Don]

My opinion. The cop might or might not have been a racist but he is retarded. (I've nothing against police officers as whole, I worked with them side by side.) I think obama was right in his first response that he had to eventually retract.

Sure, its fine that the cops showed up since a neighbor called about suspicious men trying to break into gates home. Sure, its fine that the cop asked for identification. However, the moment the cop ascertained that Gates was the owner of the house, regardless of how irate or high pitched the professors voice was he should explained to the professor that "he came because of a call and that next time gates should calmly talk to him." Then the cop should have walked away.

Feeling that you are being picked on because of who you are "whether you are black, white, hispanic can make you very irate. If you are going to racial profile (which is not necessarily racism) then you must expect the angry backlash that you will get from some innocent people, and handle it. A whole sgt couldn't do that. That saddens me.
That Gates supposedly felt he was being picked on because of his race is silly, and, not the fault of the cops.

[Carol]

Professor Gates was on university property.

He is the tenant, Harvard University is the landlord. I believe the university owns all of the residences on Ware street.

[Big Don]

IMO, it doesn't matter if he rented the house or owned the whole town, his behavior was deplorable.

[Archangel M]

My opinion. The cop might or might not have been a racist but he is retarded. (I've nothing against police officers as whole, I worked with them side by side.) I think obama was right in his first response that he had to eventually retract.

Sure, its fine that the cops showed up since a neighbor called about suspicious men trying to break into gates home. Sure, its fine that the cop asked for identification. However, the moment the cop ascertained that Gates was the owner of the house, regardless of how irate or high pitched the professors voice was he should explained to the professor that "he came because of a call and that next time gates should calmly talk to him." Then the cop should have walked away.

Feeling that you are being picked on because of who you are "whether you are black, white, hispanic can make you very irate. If you are going to racial profile (which is not necessarily racism) then you must expect the angry backlash that you will get from some innocent people, and handle it. A whole sgt couldn't do that. That saddens me.

He did "walk away" though. And Gates followed him out yelling and screaming...in front of other people watching from the street...that was the basis for arrest. You (a cop) typically cant charge DisCon if you are the only person being "offended" (cops cant be "offended" for DC)..there either has to be people witnessing or the behaivor is excessively loud during times that quiet is expected (if you are yelling and screaming at 2am..waking up the neighbors).

[celtic_crippler]

The fact that this relatively minor affair has already generated over 15 pages of heated discussion is evidence that the race issues are still a huge problem for us as a nation. And, beyond that, the issue is being exploited by certain individuals who seem to bear an almost irrational hatred for our President, accusing him of being incompetant and "unfit for office" ...because of this one minor mistep! I give irrational Obama haters get the same response I gave the irrational Bush haters. I ignore them.

Which is perfectly understandable...

But just "who" is perpetuating the problem in this case?

At any rate, I don't think Obama's comments make him unfit for office. There are definately other, more valid points that could be made towards that POV without faulting him for speaking up for a friend. Which is why I think he probably said what he said, not just because Dr. Gates happens to be black but because they are friends. It's only natural and I would probably have done the same initially.


As for the rest of us, who are not reacting solely out of our emotional dislike of the President, what is so hard to understand about an accomplished and esteemed Black man still being human and losing his cool when he thinks he's being singled out by the cops again for his race? I say 'again' because you know damn well people get singled out for the color of their skin, their age, their accent, their dress, the cars they drive, ...or you name it. It happens. And it ticks you off. So maybe that's why Professor Gates lost his cool.

You're claiming to be fair you must emotionally detach yourself and look at the facts; I agree 100%. But it seems you're just as guilty of this in defending Dr. Gates.

Sure, he's human and subject to the same flaws as the rest of us regardless of education. But nothing Sgt. Crowley did was out of the ordinary; he was following procedure. That's what the supporters of Dr. Gates can't get through their heads.

Sgt. Crowley responded appropriately to a report of B&E. It just so happened the perp was the homeowner. Once that was established it should have been over, but Dr. Gates overreacted. Dr. Gates brought this on himself through his actions. Race has nothing to do with it other than gaining this story national attention. If Dr. Gates happened to be white and not a friend of President Obama's you probably would never have heard about it.


And what about Officer Crowley? He apparently has worked very hard to be a fair cop, and an expert on race relations in police work. Yet is it so hard to understand that he's human too? In spite of himself, when Gates went off on his tirade, he got so ticked off that he went ahead and made the legal, but unecessary decision to arrest the Prof?

Agree. Sgt. Crowley is human and has a breaking point as well. A well-educated Harvard professor should have probably figured that out a long time ago. I don't have a PhD and I know that if I verbally go off on an individual they are likely to respond negatively...it ain't rocket science.

That aside, all the evidence points to the fact that Sgt. Crowley was justified in arresting Dr. Gates for disorderly conduct. Granted, disorderly conduct is often used as a catch-all by many police and Sgt. Crowley could have made the decision to ignore Dr. Gates but Dr. Gates could have just as easily made the decision to discontinue provoking the police.

The primary difference is Sgt. Crowley was legally justified in his actions and Dr. Gates was not.


And are the President's comments really that hard to understand either? I mean he started right off by saying that he probably couldn't be totally objective since Professor Gates was a personal friend, he overstepped a bit by calling the actions of the police "stupid"... although they certainly weren't the wisest way to resolve this situation. And he noted the statistical facts that underly the distrust many in the Black community have for the police. Hell, what's so bad about that? Sure, it wasn't as polished a political statement as you might like. Maybe he also let his emotions color his speech a bit. Did any of you know that he's a Black man? Surprise! Maybe he has also felt the sting of prejudice a few times. Maybe it isn't so easy being bi-racial in America either.

Not at all...as I said earlier, I would likely come to the defense of a friend as well. That's actually kinda' admirable.

Police procedure has evolved over centuries based on situation after situation, experience after experience. They may not equally apply in all cases, but they're there for a reason.

And here, you fall back to an emotional response. Blacks aren't the only ones that fall victim to over zealous cops. That excuse is old and a lot of Americans of all different colors are more than a little tired of it.



Anyway, I say cut all three of the parties involved a little slack and let's get past this and back to issues of greater importance. Now, will somebody invite me to the Whitehouse for a beer?

Maybe if you're wrongly accused of mistreating a friend of the President you'll get invited. :)

But I agree, this story got entirely too much attention and distracted the nation from more important things...like the economy, a growing government, health care reform.... Hmmmm...if I were a conspiracy theorist and an Obama hater....LOL

[MJS]

Hmm....interesting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_caller

[Steve]

But Sgt. Crowley wasn't "as much at fault" as Professor Gates. Sgt. Crowley was doing his job, plainly identifiable as a police officer, and the professor was the one who caused the problems.I disagree. Sgt. Crowley chose to fan the flames. As I said before, he could have simply thanked Gates for his time and left. He stuck around, and the longer he stayed the more the situation escalated. Am I missing something? Did Gates actually put hands on Crowley or otherwise physically keep him from getting in his car and driving off?

jks, you asked in another post where people suggested that it was retaliatory. I wish I had time to go back and find all of the quotes. More than one person said something along the lines of, "If you give a cop a hard time, expect to end up in cuffs." Essentially, the gist is that if you don't pay proper respect to a cop, you get what's coming to you. While I don't doubt that this is true, I think it's reprehensible.

Ultimately, I think cops are civil servants. Getting yelled at isn't something only cops have to endure. Verbal and sometimes physical abuse occur in every service position, particularly any government service position. Social Security reps, IRS reps, vet reps at the VA, and on down to the DMV and other State reps.. you name it, they take all kinds of abuse, and are expected to take the high road, deescalate situations and treat the public with respect regardless of how they're being treated. The only difference between a cop being yelled at by a member of the public and any other government officer is that the cop has the authority to arrest you for being a jackass.

Ultimately, I think that this entire situation is symptomatic of a larger issue in this country, and that's a general apathy and unquestioning acceptance of authority. I'm not excusing Gates' actions or justifying them in any way. I do, however, think that we should all be able to get angry at the fuzz when they appear at your door asking to see ID. Is it right? Maybe not, but it's certainly nothing that should result in an arrest. What's funny to me is that there are so many libertarians on this board and the general consensus seems to be that, yeah, if you mouth off to a cop you'll get arrested. I honestly don't get it. Arrested for being angry, indignant, and belligerant. That is hogwash, and in my opinion, abuse of authority.

Once again, the bottom line for me is this: Had Sgt. Crowley thanked Gates for his time, apologized for any confusion and left, there would be no situation, no arrest and ultimately no story. Gates was a jackass, but Crowley allowed the situation to escalate by sticking around and continuing to fuel the fire. Why did he stick around? After confirming that Gates' ID and that there was a reasonable explanation for the call, why didn't he leave right away? As he moved outside to start heading to his car, why did he stop?

[Twin Fist]

"and that's a general apathy and unquestioning acceptance of authority."

that actually the exact OPPOSITE of the problem
a kid violates the schools dress code, the parents support the kid, people feel free to back talk the police, cuz they KNOW that some people will support them doing so. Dont agree with a law? break it anyway.

When i was growing up in a not so nice part of town, we used to joke "whats the fastest way to get to Parkland(the local hospital)? smart off to a Dallas cop."

but you know what? we didnt smart off to the cops

40 years ago you KNOW the press knew about LBJ and JFK being man whores, but they didnt report it. Cuz they knew you dont poke the big dog. Not if you want to enjoy your retirement.

NO ONE respects authority any more. Thats the problem.

[celtic_crippler]

Absolutely nothing to do with race...


BOSTON – The 911 caller who reported a possible break-in at the home of black Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. did not mention race in the call

...and...


Contrary to published reports that a 'white woman' called 911 and reported seeing 'two black men' trying to gain entry into Mr. Gates home, the woman, who has olive colored skin and is of Portuguese descent, told the 911 operator that she observed 'two men' at the home

Dr. Gates should have been thankful IMHO!


Whalen, who works nearby, called because she had been aware of recent break-ins in the area

So is the argument "who fanned the flames"?

Was it the cop who was doing his duty and following procedure?

or

Was it the verbally abusive, loud, obnoxious, ungrateful homeowner?

I in no way endorse the abuse of power by the police. That is very well evidenced in other posts I've made on the topic. In this case, I feel the police were justified and just doing their job. It's not like they sodomized Dr. Gates with a taser.

Could Sgt. Crowley have walked away? Sure!

Could Dr. Gates have behaved like a civilized human being? Sure!

Either action would have ended in a more peaceful result.

But niether did, so...

Again...when you boil it all down to it's essence:

The primary difference is Sgt. Crowley was legally justified in his actions and Dr. Gates was not.

We can play the "if so-and-so" game all day long but it doesn't matter in this case. If a frog had wings...he wouldn't bump his ass every time he hopped. LOL

[CoryKS]

If people don't hold a certain degree of respect for law enforcement, the system breaks down. That's not an "unquestioning acceptance of authority", that's an acknowledgement that if you think the officer is doing his job poorly, the best way to handle it is not to jump in his ****. There are channels for handling that sort of thing.

[yorkshirelad]

[quote=yorkshirelad;1203314]

Nope, it does not. As much as you would love to believe I'm a member of the black panther movement supporting him just because he's black, no. Having a different opinion does not mean I'm playing up some race thing, it's just a different opinion, if you can't handle that then tough.
Mate, I would not "love to believe you are a member of the black panther movement". In fact I would love to believe that the vicious, hateful black panther movement did not exist at all. I feel the same way about any hateful group that relies on violence and intimidation to further its agenda. I don't believe for one second that you would belong to such a group. I do believe however, that race IS a factor in your decision to support Gates, because of comments you have made on another thread. There is no contesting that Gates' arrest was legal and justifiable. Gates and Obama based their opinions on Gates' arrest on racial motives and I firmly believe that anyone else that harbours the same opinions in someway is racially motivated. If you can't handle that TOUGH.

[yorkshirelad]

You know what -- I'll give President Obama a little bit of leeway. I'll grant that HIS comments may not have been tied to Professor Gates's race, but merely their friendship. I've stood up for friends before without knowing all the details, and discovered later I was wrong. Embarrassing -- but I'm human. I'll give President Obama that much slack... But, as PRESIDENT, he should have known better than to get involved. "I don't have the details, and I'm sorry my friend had to go through that" would have been fine. He would have shown public support for his friend without attacking the police. And you cannot tell me that as skilled an orator as President Obama, taking the apparent care with what to say that seems to be in the video, just put his foot in his mouth.
If Obama had just stood by his friend, I would grant him some leeway, but he went further than this. He started going on about how black people had been abused by law enforcement in the past and that is unacceptable in my opinion.

[jks9199]

My opinion. The cop might or might not have been a racist but he is retarded. (I've nothing against police officers as whole, I worked with them side by side.) I think obama was right in his first response that he had to eventually retract.

Sure, its fine that the cops showed up since a neighbor called about suspicious men trying to break into gates home. Sure, its fine that the cop asked for identification. However, the moment the cop ascertained that Gates was the owner of the house, regardless of how irate or high pitched the professors voice was he should explained to the professor that "he came because of a call and that next time gates should calmly talk to him." Then the cop should have walked away.

Feeling that you are being picked on because of who you are "whether you are black, white, hispanic can make you very irate. If you are going to racial profile (which is not necessarily racism) then you must expect the angry backlash that you will get from some innocent people, and handle it. A whole sgt couldn't do that. That saddens me.
It saddens me that you'd bandy words like "retarded" about when discussing a decorated professional, who made a judgement call that you disagree with.

At this point, I think that there is little dispute that the elements of the offense for disorderly conduct existed. And I'd say that there's little room for argument that Prof. Gates brought on the problem with his response, which was well outside the norms for such an incident, and which almost unarguably was based on HIS expectation of racism, rather than the facts.

And I'd say there's little doubt that President Obama regrets saying anything about it at all. He's had to basically eat his words, and he's significantly alienated the law enforcement community.

[geezer]

Considering that this is the "self-defense" forum and not the "political debate" forum, I'm going to share my top secret self-defense secret for dealing with cops:

Comply with their commands and (unless you are accused of a serious crime*) answer their questions directly and be courteous, even if you feel that they are full of ****. Arguing never helps. If you disagree, you can work that out with a judge later. Anyway, it's always worked for me... too bad Professor Gates didn't have this top secret training.

*if you are a suspect in a serious crime, it may behoove you to remain silent and request a lawyer before saying anything.

[MJS]

I disagree. Sgt. Crowley chose to fan the flames. As I said before, he could have simply thanked Gates for his time and left. He stuck around, and the longer he stayed the more the situation escalated. Am I missing something? Did Gates actually put hands on Crowley or otherwise physically keep him from getting in his car and driving off?

jks, you asked in another post where people suggested that it was retaliatory. I wish I had time to go back and find all of the quotes. More than one person said something along the lines of, "If you give a cop a hard time, expect to end up in cuffs." Essentially, the gist is that if you don't pay proper respect to a cop, you get what's coming to you. While I don't doubt that this is true, I think it's reprehensible.

Ultimately, I think cops are civil servants. Getting yelled at isn't something only cops have to endure. Verbal and sometimes physical abuse occur in every service position, particularly any government service position. Social Security reps, IRS reps, vet reps at the VA, and on down to the DMV and other State reps.. you name it, they take all kinds of abuse, and are expected to take the high road, deescalate situations and treat the public with respect regardless of how they're being treated. The only difference between a cop being yelled at by a member of the public and any other government officer is that the cop has the authority to arrest you for being a jackass.

Ultimately, I think that this entire situation is symptomatic of a larger issue in this country, and that's a general apathy and unquestioning acceptance of authority. I'm not excusing Gates' actions or justifying them in any way. I do, however, think that we should all be able to get angry at the fuzz when they appear at your door asking to see ID. Is it right? Maybe not, but it's certainly nothing that should result in an arrest. What's funny to me is that there are so many libertarians on this board and the general consensus seems to be that, yeah, if you mouth off to a cop you'll get arrested. I honestly don't get it. Arrested for being angry, indignant, and belligerant. That is hogwash, and in my opinion, abuse of authority.

Once again, the bottom line for me is this: Had Sgt. Crowley thanked Gates for his time, apologized for any confusion and left, there would be no situation, no arrest and ultimately no story. Gates was a jackass, but Crowley allowed the situation to escalate by sticking around and continuing to fuel the fire. Why did he stick around? After confirming that Gates' ID and that there was a reasonable explanation for the call, why didn't he leave right away? As he moved outside to start heading to his car, why did he stop?

Ya know, this thread is so large now, I really can't recall, but I have a question. Was I correct in reading somewhere that Gates was on the phone while the cops were trying to figure out what was going on? How long after the cops asked for ID, did they get it? After ID was shown, was Gates still acting like a fool? If so, while I understand what others are saying, in that the cops still could have left and left Gates vent, they didn't. Do we know what he was doing and/or saying? Perhaps if we did, then maybe it'd be clearer as to why he was arrested.

On the other hand, while I understand that after the events that happened, ie: issue with the front door, issue with the passerby calling a B&E in progress, etc., I find it interesting that people are saying that the cops fanned the flames, giving the impression that Gates did nothing wrong. Did he have to act the way he did? No. He was playing the typical race card, acting like he was being harassed, blah, blah, blah, and instead of being the Professional that he should be, acted like a punk.

[MJS]

If people don't hold a certain degree of respect for law enforcement, the system breaks down. That's not an "unquestioning acceptance of authority", that's an acknowledgement that if you think the officer is doing his job poorly, the best way to handle it is not to jump in his ****. There are channels for handling that sort of thing.

Exactly, and I find myself repeating what I always say....people could eliminate half the problems they bring on THEMSELVES, if they just shut the **** up, and dealt with things after. The Prof. could have simply got into his car, and went to the PD to discuss this issue, if he felt things were not done right, but instead choose to be a jerk. Even if he didn't go to the PD, he still could have acted like a mature adult, instead of an immature child, who felt he was getting a raw deal.

[MJS]

If Obama had just stood by his friend, I would grant him some leeway, but he went further than this. He started going on about how black people had been abused by law enforcement in the past and that is unacceptable in my opinion.

Agreed. Friend or not...IMHO, this was not an issue that he needed to involve himself in. I mean, I find it hard to believe that things like this dont happen all the time, yet does the President involve himself in every race issue that happens on the streets? I highly doubt it.

[Steve]

"and that's a general apathy and unquestioning acceptance of authority."

that actually the exact OPPOSITE of the problem
a kid violates the schools dress code, the parents support the kid, people feel free to back talk the police, cuz they KNOW that some people will support them doing so. Dont agree with a law? break it anyway.

When i was growing up in a not so nice part of town, we used to joke "whats the fastest way to get to Parkland(the local hospital)? smart off to a Dallas cop."

but you know what? we didnt smart off to the cops

40 years ago you KNOW the press knew about LBJ and JFK being man whores, but they didnt report it. Cuz they knew you dont poke the big dog. Not if you want to enjoy your retirement.

NO ONE respects authority any more. Thats the problem.I don't think this is exactly apples to apples, but it's a fair point. While it doesn't change my opinion on this subject, it does give me food for thought. I think it's possible to respect authority without rolling over. For example, in this particular situation, does anyone believe that Gates is other than the average, mostly law abiding citizen? I'd go out on a limb and suggest that he pays his bills and doesn't go out of his way to break the law or disrespect cops or anyone else.

What you're talking about regarding JFK and LBJ is something I brought up in the 90's during the lewinsky impeachment. I'm not sure that us plebes have any more or less respect for authority, but it's clear that the upper echelons have zero respect, and that's played out over the last few decades.

[MJS]

My opinion. The cop might or might not have been a racist but he is retarded. (I've nothing against police officers as whole, I worked with them side by side.) I think obama was right in his first response that he had to eventually retract.

Nice choice of words.:rolleyes:


Sure, its fine that the cops showed up since a neighbor called about suspicious men trying to break into gates home. Sure, its fine that the cop asked for identification. However, the moment the cop ascertained that Gates was the owner of the house, regardless of how irate or high pitched the professors voice was he should explained to the professor that "he came because of a call and that next time gates should calmly talk to him." Then the cop should have walked away.

And the fact that Gates was acting like an ass should not have been addressed? As it was said, he was creating a public disturbance, an offense worthy of an arrest. I find it interesting how the cop is supposed to do nothing, while the other person can get away with yelling, screaming, probably swearing, rather than being civil.


Feeling that you are being picked on because of who you are "whether you are black, white, hispanic can make you very irate. If you are going to racial profile (which is not necessarily racism) then you must expect the angry backlash that you will get from some innocent people, and handle it. A whole sgt couldn't do that. That saddens me.

And while I understand that being picked on is not fun, is it necessary to blow up? And has it been proven that profiling took place? People assume it did because the cops were white and the other guy was black. Gee, maybe next time I'm pulled over and its a cop whose race is anything other than white, I should cry foul and scream that I was being profiled. Please, give me a break.

[Steve]

If people don't hold a certain degree of respect for law enforcement, the system breaks down. That's not an "unquestioning acceptance of authority", that's an acknowledgement that if you think the officer is doing his job poorly, the best way to handle it is not to jump in his ****. There are channels for handling that sort of thing.Another fair point, MJS, but I think it ignores somewhat the reality of these situations. Most people don't interact with the cops personally very often. For the public, dealing with the cops goes hand in hand with emotionally charged, anxiety laden situations. Crowley has been on the force for years, but how many times does a person have a cop confront him? In his own home? As I've said repeatedly, I in no way defend Gates actions. I'm suggesting that it is Crowley's responsibility to act with sound judgement. In my opinion, staying there further incited Gates and was clearly a mistake.

Yes, Gates acted poorly. But Crowley was in a position of authority. Crowley had the experience and the training to handle the situation, and I'm sure that Gates isn't the first irate person Crowley's dealt with in his career. Crowley is the expert. It is ultimately, in my opinion, his responsibility to manage the situation.

As I said before, Crowley is a civil servant like any other civil servant. The only difference is that he can arrest the person saying, "Yo mamma."

[celtic_crippler]

Considering that this is the "self-defense" forum and not the "political debate" forum, I'm going to share my top secret self-defense secret for dealing with cops:

Comply with their commands and (unless you are accused of a serious crime*) answer their questions directly and be courteous, even if you feel that they are full of ****. Arguing never helps. If you disagree, you can work that out with a judge later. Anyway, it's always worked for me... too bad Professor Gates didn't have this top secret training.

*if you are a suspect in a serious crime, it may behoove you to remain silent and request a lawyer before saying anything.

Excellent advice! It's worked well for me as well. :)

[Steve]

And the fact that Gates was acting like an ass should not have been addressed? As it was said, he was creating a public disturbance, an offense worthy of an arrest. I find it interesting how the cop is supposed to do nothing, while the other person can get away with yelling, screaming, probably swearing, rather than being civil. MJS, you were writing this as I was typing my response, but this speaks exactly to my point. Short answer: yes. Anyone else would endure the verbal abuse and terminate the conversation. If you came into my office and laid into me, I'd take it to a point and remain polite. Ideally, I'd deescalate the situation and resolve the issue. If that doesn't work, I'd ask you to leave. If I had the option to leave myself, I would. And if I didn't handle the situation like this, I'd be disciplined at least, and fired at worst. This is true at all levels of government, as well as any other service position. Retail managers (who get paid very little) understand this concept well.

[celtic_crippler]

MJS, you were writing this as I was typing my response, but this speaks exactly to my point. Short answer: yes. Anyone else would endure the verbal abuse and terminate the conversation. If you came into my office and laid into me, I'd take it to a point and remain polite. Ideally, I'd deescalate the situation and resolve the issue. If that doesn't work, I'd ask you to leave. If I had the option to leave myself, I would. And if I didn't handle the situation like this, I'd be disciplined at least, and fired at worst. This is true at all levels of government, as well as any other service position. Retail managers (who get paid very little) understand this concept well.

Retail managers call the police in these situations. :rolleyes: As would anyone else who experienced an overly disruptive individual in their work place.

[Steve]

Retail managers call the police in these situations. :rolleyes: As would anyone else who experienced an overly disruptive individual in their work place.No, they don't. Not typically. In fact, they aren't usually allowed to call the police or even mall security until they've directed to do so by their LP rep. Of course, each company has their own policies.

Edit: Just in case this goes without saying, I'm not talking about situations in which there is any threat of bodily harm. I'm talking about situations like Gates': yelling, belligerance and regular, run of the mill crazy talk.

[yorkshirelad]

As a white guy, (well pink with red blotchy cheeks and black hair), I have been racially profiled by the British police many times.

The cheapest method of transport between Dublin and Northern England is the bus/ferry. It costs about 20 quid. You get on the bus at the bus station in Dublin. The bus take you tao the ferry. You get off the ferry in Holyhead and then get back on the bus until you get to Liverpool, Manchester or Leeds.

Now bear in mind that when you get back on the bus after the ferry it's usually 0300 and you are tired and irritable after a 3 hour rocky ferry ride, filled with screaming babies, drunks and seasickness.

I have taken this trip tens of times and at least half of those times I've been stopped before resuming my place on the bus by the police. They would take me into a room and politely question me. My answers would ALWAYS be "yes sir" or "no sir". Then they would proceed to opens my bags and search the contents. When they would finish they would end with "sorry to trouble you sir" and I would end the conversation with a smile and say something on the lines of "No broblem officers" and I really meant it. It was no problem. I didn't once think that those guys wanted for one second to rifle through my underwear when the vast majority of the population were sleeping and I felt safe knowing that these guys were doing their job and I WAS being racially profiled.

Now, if I had let my lack of sleep/temper get to me for some unfathomable reason and said "No, I'm not going with you into that room, but i'll go in there with YO MOMMA, I would have been forced into the room and probably been given a cavity search and it would have been the fault of my uncontrolled jaw, NOTHING ELSE.

Again, the Gates' arrest was the fault of Gates. If anything he should've been happy that the police responded to his home. I know for one thing that if I was forcing entry into my home and the police arrived in due time, I would at least feel secure that if I WAS been burgled by some lowlife, they would respond in due time.

[crushing]

Yes, Gates acted poorly.
But Crowley was in a position of authority.
Crowley had the experience and the training to handle the situation,
and I'm sure that Gates isn't the first irate person Crowley's dealt with in his career.
Crowley is the expert.
It is ultimately, in my opinion, his responsibility to manage the situation.


Yes. Yes. Yes. Proably. Yes. He did, and some people are faulting him for it.

[crushing]

No, they don't. Not typically. In fact, they aren't usually allowed to call the police or even mall security until they've directed to do so by their LP rep. Of course, each company has their own policies.

Edit: Just in case this goes without saying, I'm not talking about situations in which there is any threat of bodily harm. I'm talking about situations like Gates': yelling, belligerance and regular, run of the mill crazy talk.

Is there a transcript? If you have a link I would really like to read it. THANKS!

[Steve]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Proably. Yes. He did, and some people are faulting him for it.I was with you 'til the last. He mismanaged the situation, and that's the entire issue. :)

[Steve]

Is there a transcript? If you have a link I would really like to read it. THANKS!I'm sure you're aware of the same accounts I am. There's Gates' version and the police report. Somewhere in the middle is what really happened, I'm sure. :)

[MJS]

MJS, you were writing this as I was typing my response, but this speaks exactly to my point. Short answer: yes. Anyone else would endure the verbal abuse and terminate the conversation. If you came into my office and laid into me, I'd take it to a point and remain polite. Ideally, I'd deescalate the situation and resolve the issue. If that doesn't work, I'd ask you to leave. If I had the option to leave myself, I would. And if I didn't handle the situation like this, I'd be disciplined at least, and fired at worst. This is true at all levels of government, as well as any other service position. Retail managers (who get paid very little) understand this concept well.

Hey Steve,

I think we're on the same page for the most part here. :) What is missing, afaik, from this debate, is that we don't know what was said between the parties involved. If it has been posted here, my apologies for missing it. What I'm saying is, did the cop say nothing out of line, do his best to de-escalate, etc, and when it wasn't working, made the arrest? Perhaps he was going to leave, and Gates continued on with his rant, to which the cop could have still kept walking, but seeing that Gates now crossed into the disturbance area, opted not to and instead arrest the Prof.

Slightly off topic, but related nonetheless, seeing that you mentioned retail. Quite a few years ago, I, as well as my father and grandfather worked in a liquor store, that was owned by a long time family friend. I worked just on Saturdays, from 3-8. One of the regulars came in to purchase lottery tickets. He had ones to cash in as well. During the transaction, I had a feeling that there was a mistake made with the cash, but due to it being busy, continued on, and told my grandfather to make sure he counted the money to double check when he got there on Monday, and if there was an error, to fix it with the customer the next time he came in.

This happened, but apparently this pissed off the customer. IIRC, there wasn't a mistake, but better to be safe than sorry. :) So, now this guy comes in to get tickets the following Sat., and proceeds to tell me how offended he was that I accused him of ripping the store off. By this time, there was quite a line building and this guy wasn't letting up. I did my best to defuse the situation and trying to justify my standpoint, as I didn't want to be accused of stealing, if there was in fact a shortage.

After quite a few minutes of this verbal abuse, I told him that he was going to have to either finish his purchase or leave the store, as I had others to tend to. He told me that I had to serve him. I told him that I did not, and to leave the store. He told me he was going to call the police, to which I handed him the store phone and asked if he wanted to call or if he wanted me to call. He went on for a few more seconds and then left.

Moral of the story....for the small amount I was making an hour and for the short time I was there, I did not need the abuse, and neither did the other customers, who're being subjected to this. I offered up an apology and explaination, to which went ignored, so I escalated to asking and then telling him to leave. Had he stayed, I can assure you I would have called the police and I would not have served him. I can also say that when they arrived, I'd be willing to bet that after they heard my side of the story, that he would have been asked to leave and if he didn't, he'd have been arrested. Had this guy just been calm and listened, the incident would've probably ended sooner than later. Instead he choose, just like Gates, to create a public disturbance.

[crushing]

I was with you 'til the last. He mismanaged the situation, and that's the entire issue. :)

It doesn't make sense to me that he had all of those bullet points going for him just to risk his job and throw it out the window.


I'm sure you're aware of the same accounts I am. There's Gates' version and the police report. Somewhere in the middle is what really happened, I'm sure. :)

Once again, isn't there a great risk to a policeman's job if he were to falsify a police report? Why would he risk throwing it all away on some disorderly jerk? Gates misrepresents the situation (which you suggest he did) and it could mean finding a larger audience to purchase his story.

[jks9199]

jks, you asked in another post where people suggested that it was retaliatory. I wish I had time to go back and find all of the quotes. More than one person said something along the lines of, "If you give a cop a hard time, expect to end up in cuffs." Essentially, the gist is that if you don't pay proper respect to a cop, you get what's coming to you. While I don't doubt that this is true, I think it's reprehensible.

Ultimately, I think cops are civil servants. Getting yelled at isn't something only cops have to endure. Verbal and sometimes physical abuse occur in every service position, particularly any government service position. Social Security reps, IRS reps, vet reps at the VA, and on down to the DMV and other State reps.. you name it, they take all kinds of abuse, and are expected to take the high road, deescalate situations and treat the public with respect regardless of how they're being treated. The only difference between a cop being yelled at by a member of the public and any other government officer is that the cop has the authority to arrest you for being a jackass.

Ultimately, I think that this entire situation is symptomatic of a larger issue in this country, and that's a general apathy and unquestioning acceptance of authority. I'm not excusing Gates' actions or justifying them in any way. I do, however, think that we should all be able to get angry at the fuzz when they appear at your door asking to see ID. Is it right? Maybe not, but it's certainly nothing that should result in an arrest. What's funny to me is that there are so many libertarians on this board and the general consensus seems to be that, yeah, if you mouth off to a cop you'll get arrested. I honestly don't get it. Arrested for being angry, indignant, and belligerant. That is hogwash, and in my opinion, abuse of authority.


It seems clear from his report that Dr. Gates was not working with him, and did not want to listen to any explanation. In his report, Sgt. Crowley says that Dr. Gates was being so loud and belligerent that the sergeant was having trouble hearing his radio and (I admit, I'm reading between the lines on this part) probably wanted some room in case things went bad. Walking away may not have seemed a safe option; more in a moment.

Because I think that you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of the job of law enforcement officer. This post adds to my belief:


MJS, you were writing this as I was typing my response, but this speaks exactly to my point. Short answer: yes. Anyone else would endure the verbal abuse and terminate the conversation. If you came into my office and laid into me, I'd take it to a point and remain polite. Ideally, I'd deescalate the situation and resolve the issue. If that doesn't work, I'd ask you to leave. If I had the option to leave myself, I would. And if I didn't handle the situation like this, I'd be disciplined at least, and fired at worst. This is true at all levels of government, as well as any other service position. Retail managers (who get paid very little) understand this concept well.

A law enforcement officer is a unique civil servant; every other civil servant or government official exists to either let the government do its job (all the clerks who make things move for the various people who do the work) or to provide a service to the public or body politic, ideally one that they cannot provide for themselves. In other words, they let you do things. They may control how or where, but they are there to enable you to do something at heart.

A LEO is different: Their job is, very simply, to be the party pooper. They make you STOP doing something that you want to. LEOs make you comply with the law; they take the law and the government out to you, whether you want it or not.

In the same way, there's an important difference between a police officer and a retail manager. When all is said and done, the retail manager can always walk away, and let someone else handle it. The cop, in the end, has to be able to impose his will on other people who aren't complying.

The cop relies on several factors to achieve this, hopefully without resorting to violence. One of those is simple compliance; people voluntarily submitting to the officer's will, whether that's to go back inside or even submitting to arrest. Compliance only works when there is a degree of respect coupled with confidence that if the people don't comply, the cops will make them comply. As I said earlier, that means that the police have to balance walking away from a disorderly subject with the need to maintain their perceived authority.

Because, when all is said and done, the cop is the one who's job is to make someone obey the law, and bring them before the appropriate officials when they don't.

I've said before, I've been in very similar situations, many times. Sometimes, I've let the person bluster. Sometimes, I've walked away. And, more than once, I've slammed the idiot to the ground and cuffed them. In some cases, I've probably over-reacted. In others, I know I under-reacted because someone else had to come along a few moments later and step things up significantly. It's a tough balancing act.

I'm not saying that this arrest was absolutely essential. Just because an arrest IS justified doesn't mean it's the best or wisest choice. But I am absolutely saying that the arrest wasn't based on race, and that both sides could have handled the entire situation differently.

Sorry if this ends up reading a little disjointed... I'm actually combining two replies that started out separate until I realized that they're really the same problem.