Anger

[Ender]

ok. I got a new topic for discussion. Should one fight in anger? does it hinder you? does it make you lose control of your techniques? what emotion should you fight from?

Now obviously we're not talking about sparring here, but an attack on the street. but are there situations where if you lose control of your temper you may lose the battle.

Fighting for yourself I belive it's easier to control your anger. Fighting for someone else , say woman being attacked, might be harder to not lose your temper.

my opinion is that anger is dangerous. anger under control is a powerful weapon.

Any thoughts?

[gman]

I would agree. Control of any emotion would be wise. I think anyone would have some degree of fear or anger in any confrontation, but if you lose control you lose focus. Just my opinion.

[Bob Hubbard]

I'll avoid the obvious "Star Wars" refs...:D

Fighting while controled by anger often times leads to sloppyness. This opens you to taking more damage than if you were more controled in your aproach.

I base my thinking off my sparring and fights I've had in the past. When I was 'pissed off' I was more reckless, more 'wild' and more just wanting to hit em, then when I was calmer and more focused. My technique was smoother, and I was able to better parry and block.

A little adrenilin is good..but all things in moderation. :)

:asian:

[Ender]

Do you think anger can keep you going if you are losing say a life or death struggle?

[KanoLives]

Originally posted by Ender
Do you think anger can keep you going if you are losing say a life or death struggle?

I think in a life and death situation there should be only one focus.....to stay alive. Lose focus of that and lose the fight.

[Brother John]

Anger is a natural reaction to many circumstances that's evolved into our bodies, we don't have a choice so much about when we get angry.... but we do in how we express it. To really get rid of the anger response you'd have to rip out a great deal of synapses.... NOT GOOD.
Anger is much like it's closest relative; fear... they both can induce the fight or flight, adrenal rush--adrenal dump...experience. Training in a stress inducing way can help us learn to "express" our anger in a way conducive to executing Kenpo instead of "losing control" or freazing.
It's a part of expressing yourself in your art.

Just my thoughts.
Your Brother
John

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

" Anger doesn't give you an edge, it blunts it. "

-Duncan Macleod of the clan Macleod

:cool:

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Ender
my opinion is that anger is dangerous. anger under control is a powerful weapon.

Any thoughts?

I've channelled anger before to better focus, but it was done only when I had a lot of difficulties in focusing any other way. Almost used anger as a motivation to hold on and continue to be there. Sounds weird... and maybe is. It helped.

[KenpoDragon]

Kaith didn't want to,but I had to!!! Master Yoda says,"Anger clouds the mind." I understand about anger clouding your judgement,I'll give you a little story of mine to help.I used to work at a music store,one day 4 guys come in and myself and the 2 girls that were working knew there was going to be a problem. So one of the girls was following one of the guys,I was handling the ticketmaster,and the other girl was helping customers.All the sudden I heard my friend Aimee saying that she was going to call the police so I looked over at her and she was in front of this guy about a foot taller than her.I heard him say some abusive comments towards her and I told the ticketmaster people I'd be right back.I started to walk over to my friend Aimee and kindly asked the guy to leave.He then turns towards me and proceeds to walk towards me,uttering more obscene words.I being fairly cool headed began to walk backwards and stated that I did not want to fight,I simply wanted him to leave.Well he kept advancing forward and started raising his hands at me,I had finally backed up so far that I almost had been put in the corner of the room.The final time he raised his hands at me,I pounced on him like a tiger,at the time I had only studied Judo and Jujutsu,so I grabbed him towards his neck and was going for a choke hold.Well in the process of going for the choke I rammed his head in to a nearby computer moving it back several inches.I then proceeded with the choke,his buddies rushed over to TRY and pull me off,remember he had 3 friends with him.Well a couple of male customers had also come to help out mainly to make sure I didn't get pounded I guess.Even though I had about 6 or7 guys trying to pull me off,I didn't let go until I heard my friends voice say let go,please.So I threw him back in to his friends,and myself and the other guys proceeded to push the 4 guys out of the store.I was unaware at the time but the guy had actually pie faced my friend Aimee,before I had interferred.I don't think I would have let go if I had witnessed this.Anger is not an easy emotion to control,especially when it comes down to the defense of people we care about,but you must remember as martial artists we have knowledge that allows us to cause potentially major damage on the human body.You must always take this in to account,whether it is in defense of yourself or others.This episode of mine was fairly early on in my training I would like to think I have gained better control since that time.Hope that helps.

KenpoDragon:asian:

:jediduel: :yinyang:

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
I've channelled anger before to better focus, but it was done only when I had a lot of difficulties in focusing any other way. Almost used anger as a motivation to hold on and continue to be there. Sounds weird... and maybe is. It helped.

That's focusing one's anger, not fighting in anger. To fight in anger is to be controlled by it. To focus the anger is to be empowered and strengthened by it.

[Ender]

Kenpo Dragon:

Thats what I'm talking about..they had a hard time pulling you off because you were so angry, yet you left yourself vulnerable to the other 3. what if they had weapons for example. It's very difficult to walk that fine line...nods.

[D.Cobb]

Instead of getting angry, shouldn't we just get determined?

My $0.02 worth.
--Dave
:asian:

[KenpoDragon]

Originally posted by Ender
Kenpo Dragon:

Thats what I'm talking about..they had a hard time pulling you off because you were so angry, yet you left yourself vulnerable to the other 3. what if they had weapons for example. It's very difficult to walk that fine line...nods.

That was the point of the story Ender,as I said I was a lot younger back then and a lot less experienced.If you allow your anger to control you,then you are no longer thinking straight and open yourself up for infinite possibilities.The moral of the story was avoid anger at all costs,if possible.Control over ones emotions is very difficult if not impossible at times.I have developed a training method for my students,I actually get them angry,allow their adrenaline to start pumping,so they know what it is like in a real physical altercation.If you can not control your emotions and adrenaline to work for you, they will work against you.

With honor and respect,
KenpoDragon:asian:

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
That's focusing one's anger, not fighting in anger. To fight in anger is to be controlled by it. To focus the anger is to be empowered and strengthened by it.

Then I have to agree with KenpoDragon and Ender, fighting in anger is dangerous as it leaves you unaware of your environment... Too much focused in what caused your anger to notice anything.

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Too much focused in what caused your anger to notice anything.

Exactly. :asian:

[Marcus Buonfiglio]

From what I have experienced and from what I have been taught, when the situation you find yourself in meets the criteria that you have already established, to use force, the response from you is one of no emotion. If you allow anger, rage, embarrassment, remorse, pity, or any other emotion to come to the forfront of your mindset you compromise your ability to control the situation. If you haven't fully explored what reasons, within your own personal code of morals, values and ethics, that estsblishes your criteria for what you are willing to fight for and what you are willing to kill for then I recommend that you do so. Once this is FULLY explored then there are only those triggers that bring forth the combat mindset which in of itself triggers the fight or flight response and allows the mind unrestricted and unfiltered response to the stimuli of combat.

[pineapple head]

Originally posted by Marcus Buonfiglio
From what I have experienced and from what I have been taught, when the situation you find yourself in meets the criteria that you have already established, to use force, the response from you is one of no emotion. If you allow anger, rage, embarrassment, remorse, pity, or any other emotion to come to the forfront of your mindset you compromise your ability to control the situation. If you haven't fully explored what reasons, within your own personal code of morals, values and ethics, that estsblishes your criteria for what you are willing to fight for and what you are willing to kill for then I recommend that you do so. Once this is FULLY explored then there are only those triggers that bring forth the combat mindset which in of itself triggers the fight or flight response and allows the mind unrestricted and unfiltered response to the stimuli of combat.

That is truley exellent , well wrote.:asian:

[Kalicombat]

Anger can be fuel for the soul. I for one have lived off of anger for many years. It has caused some problems through out those years, but it's like an old pair of shoes, when they're gone, it just doesnt feel right. Ive been pissed at the world for so long, it no longer matters why. I use my anger in a violent situation, like I use it in my every day life, to keep me on the edge. To keep my guard up and always ready for an altercation. My "kenpo switch" is on, 24/7, and I like it that way.

Gary Catherman

[webpage20022003]

completely agree with Marcus Buonfiglio

[Michael Billings]

I agree in a rational logical way with Mr. Buonfiglio. But there can be times when that calm or "mind like the moon" or "mind like water" as the Japanese refer to it, is not obtainable.

I think there is a hightened state of awareness in which you can channel your energy into what I call "Positive Aggression". I have heard lots of stories from lots of people, including SGM Parker, calmness never seemed to be a state they were in when they got in a real fight, outside of the tournament setting.

In re-reading Marcus's post, maybe the "... combat mindset which in of itself triggers the fight or flight response and allows the mind unrestricted and unfiltered response to the stimuli of combat"; is similar to my concept of positive aggression. I agree that the control of emotions is the ideal to strive and train for (unless you are a Taoist of course), but best not be unfamiliar with emotions which may arise in actual combat ... but you never felt in your school, tournaments, or any other setting.

Just something else to think about.

-Michael

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I agree in a rational logical way with Mr. Buonfiglio. But there can be times when that calm or "mind like the moon" or "mind like water" as the Japanese refer to it, is not obtainable.

I think there is a hightened state of awareness in which you can channel your energy into what I call "Positive Aggression". I have heard lots of stories from lots of people, including SGM Parker, calmness never seemed to be a state they were in when they got in a real fight, outside of the tournament setting.

In re-reading Marcus's post, maybe the "... combat mindset which in of itself triggers the fight or flight response and allows the mind unrestricted and unfiltered response to the stimuli of combat"; is similar to my concept of positive aggression. I agree that the control of emotions is the ideal to strive and train for (unless you are a Taoist of course), but best not be unfamiliar with emotions which may arise in actual combat ... but you never felt in your school, tournaments, or any other setting.

Just something else to think about.

-Michael

Or would this be what Bruce Lee was talking about when he spoke of, "Controlled Violence"?

--Dave

:asian:

[theletch1]

Given what everyone else has posted here I have the following question that seems to go hand in hand with the original... Is there the possibility that, in controlling your anger or other emotions, you can reach a point of emotional detachment that causes you to underestimate/disregard the danger that you are in during an altercation? Is anger or fear actually a necessary thing to force your body to do those things that are needed in a survival situation? How much of the speed, strength and tenacity that you have during a fight come from the adrenaline dump caused by anger or fear?

Just a thought. :asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by theletch1
Given what everyone else has posted here I have the following question that seems to go hand in hand with the original... Is there the possibility that, in controlling your anger or other emotions, you can reach a point of emotional detachment that causes you to underestimate/disregard the danger that you are in during an altercation? Is anger or fear actually a necessary thing to force your body to do those things that are needed in a survival situation? How much of the speed, strength and tenacity that you have during a fight come from the adrenaline dump caused by anger or fear?

Just a thought. :asian:

Fear causes anger.
Anger causes Adrenalin dump.
Adrenal Dump causes Adrenal Stress
Adrenal stress causes Loss

Tenacity should come from individual determination, not from anger. Adrenal stress causes all sorts of s**t to happen within our bodies, that pretty much set us up for an ass whoopin' if our opponent is more in control than we are.

If we control our fear, we get no anger.If we get no anger, we can focus on the job at hand. That is, finish the altercation efficiently and effectively, and go home to our families.

--Dave

:asian:

[Mark L]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
Adrenal stress causes all sorts of s**t to happen within our bodies, that pretty much set us up for an ass whoopin' if our opponent is more in control than we are.

:asian:

Perhaps it only sets you up for an ass whoopin' if you're unfamiliar with your mind and bodies reaction.

There are a few drills that my instructor uses that have gotten me goin' pretty good. I'm not sure if that was his intent or not, but the first few times it was mostly me losing my head and getting thumped. But I'm getting used to it. Well, maybe not used to it, rather I'm just recognizing it when it comes and not letting it take over. Its like a switch is thrown and I'm instantly enraged, instead of completely losing it I try to focus the energy to resolve the situation. It amazes me how quickly this all happens. Mostly it gets me very agressive (I have to be real careful with control when this happens), but still with a bit of situational awareness.

I wonder if the adrenal response is binary? Or are there degrees of it? Does the body dump it all in every time? I'm wondering whether what I feel in the dojo approximates what I'd feel on the street.

[Marcus Buonfiglio]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by theletch1
[B]Given what everyone else has posted here I have the following question that seems to go hand in hand with the original... Is there the possibility that, in controlling your anger or other emotions, you can reach a point of emotional detachment that causes you to underestimate/disregard the danger that you are in during an altercation? Is anger or fear actually a necessary thing to force your body to do those things that are needed in a survival situation? How much of the speed, strength and tenacity that you have during a fight come from the adrenaline dump caused by anger or fear?

A good question. It is my opinion that a state of emotional detachment is what you should strive for. Although I admit it is easier said than done. Some people have conditioned themselves to channel other emotions (fear, embarressment, emotional hurt, etc.) into anger as a self defense mechanism which does trigger the fight or flight response. As we have all experienced at on time or another, that channeling has gotten us into trouble that we haden't anticipated.
When a situation presents itself that meets the criteria for which I will fight, my experience has been that anger is an emotion that doesnt surface. The FFR kicks in with all the chemical and physical changes that take place as a result of the percieved threat but I feel calm and clear headed. A state of emotional detachment provedes a clear channel fo stimuli and response. Dealing with the threat now becomes mechanical in it's application. It isn't untill after the situation is resolved that I get the shakes and feelings that I have to deal with as a result if it's aftermath. That is when the feelings of anger or remorse or embarressment at what I was forced to do have to be delt with. It is why I said in an earlier post that you fully have to explore why you will fight and why you will kill. The emotional and spiritual aftermath can be overwhelming if you are not clear on this issue. Understand that I am speaking from and about personal expierence during street confrontations. In speaking with those that have experienced military combat, their perception, although similar in some ways, are drastically different in others.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Mark L
Perhaps it only sets you up for an ass whoopin' if you're unfamiliar with your mind and bodies reaction.

That's why I said, "If our opponent is more in control than we are."


There are a few drills that my instructor uses that have gotten me goin' pretty good. I'm not sure if that was his intent or not, but the first few times it was mostly me losing my head and getting thumped. But I'm getting used to it. Well, maybe not used to it, rather I'm just recognizing it when it comes and not letting it take over. Its like a switch is thrown and I'm instantly enraged, instead of completely losing it I try to focus the energy to resolve the situation. It amazes me how quickly this all happens. Mostly it gets me very agressive (I have to be real careful with control when this happens), but still with a bit of situational awareness.

That is entirely the point of drills. It allows us to create a muscle memory, for when our cognitive process' shut down. As you say here, you don't lose it, you focus your energy. But if you have time to think about anything, then the situation is either not realistic(dojo), or you have time to walk away(street).


I wonder if the adrenal response is binary? Or are there degrees of it?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by binary, so I can't comment.


Does the body dump it all in every time? I'm wondering whether what I feel in the dojo approximates what I'd feel on the street.

If you haven't trained realistically to handle these kinds of situations, then the effects of the dump are more noticable. You know cognative processing is gone. The hips lock up. The knees go stiff and straight. Your depth perception is suspect to say the least. Your breathing goes shallow, etc. When you have trained for it, you are more able to controll the effects of the dump. You know, you keep your head and focus more with intent. You still need to move too fast for conscious thought process, to be of any use, but you can maintain your breathing and posture toward ensuring a favourable outcome.
And yes, from my experiences when I was a security officer, the real situations do hit you in much the same way as the dojo scenarios.

Just my $0.02 worth.

--Dave

:asian:

[Elfan]

To me fighting is all about choosing, and anger does not help but hinders that.
-----
Ph34r |34d5 70 4n93r... 4n93r |34d5 70 h473... h473 |34d5 70 5uph3r1n9

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Elfan
To me fighting is all about choosing, and anger does not help but hinders that.

Yep, amen to that!

--Dave
:asian:

[Mark L]

Originally posted by D.Cobb



I'm not exactly sure what you mean by binary, so I can't comment.

:asian:

By binary I mean there are only two states: No adrenaline, or all of it. In the dojo my body reacts to the adrenaline dump in a certain way. The question (which I think you answered, Dave) is if a real situation would result in the same adrenal reaction, or if it might be more or less intense. Thanks for your reply.

[Michael Billings]

In computerese, (that esoteric language used by programmers), 1's or 0's were the only 2 digits used by computers in processing. Of course tens of thousands of these "Yes" or "No" (On or Off) "decisions" went into any type of calculation. And students from long ago had to know how to feed this to the computer to get the calculation they needed.

So when referring to Adrenaline, or a heightened state of readiness, physically, mentally or emotionally, there is ON or OFF.

There are lots of grey areas where the arousal level is not at full "ON". But I think, he is referring to a life or death situation in which a total adrenal dump ocurred.

Oss,
-Michael

-Michael

[satans.barber]

If you're bored enough...

http://www.satansbarber.co.uk/computing/binary.htm

;)

Ian.

[stacks]

fighting in an angered state I feel is very dangerous. you must control your anger or you will get tunnel vision and not be prepared for what may come. in your mind you must go slow (much like a race car driver, things around him are very fast, but in his mind it is like a chess game one thing will lead to another if properly planned, most people who drive angry get in accidents)
try to defuse any situation first, remeber our skills are to be used as a last resort

Stacks :asian: