"What ninjutsu wants to be"

[Lawman9]

http://www.ninjitsu.com/total_warrior_magazine.html

heee heee hee.......

anyone ever hear of this guy?

[Deaf]

oh this dude has been around for a while. Exactly what the hell he is teaching...well it says ninJITsu!

enough said hombre!

~Deaf~

[theletch1]

Modern American Ninjitsu (M.A.N)? What an acronym, and he managed to put something in about a ninja turtle in the same paragraph. Notice the "ninja store" is the second bullet in the text. You don't think he is only interested in the money do ya?

Travel and training martial arts tour!!! See the magnificent american south west with all of it's ninja heritage!! O.K., I'm not a ninjitsu practitioner but I don't ever recall hearing that the ninja had anything to do with New Mexico and Arizona. Maybe they've just been using those "secret" invisibility techniques to stay hidden all these years.:rofl:

[Cryozombie]

Yeah yeah... I know who these guys are...

Their only redeeming quality IMHO, is that the overpriced Ninja Uniforms they sell are some of the coolest ones I have seen availible.

Althogh looking at the store now, he seems to have modifed the Ninja uniform he HAD and now its a MARTIAL SCIENCE Tshirt style top, not like the one of him in the little pic at the top... Dunno... maybe if I dig deeper he still sells the old one...

[Chuck]

Hmmm. Home study Ninjitsu. That sounds too good to be true.

[TLH3rdDan]

wow so i can be a ninjitsu instructor in just 24 lessons wow i never knew it was that easy and only 299.99 wow cant pass this deal up... and talk about a cool style name tew ryu it even ryhmes... im impressed cant wait to get my CDs and my 10% discount

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by Chuck
Hmmm. Home study Ninjitsu. That sounds too good to be true.

Yeah, maybe someday when I have learned all I can of Ninjutsu Ill start learning the infinatley more deadly Ninjitsu... From these guys, Ashida Kim, and others like them.

[Bujingodai]

I have corresponded with Rick Tew on a few occasions. Not sure I would call what he does Ninjutsu by description. More executive arts for weekend warriors. Rick has a rather pricey yet full cirriculum. His students that I have seen are pretty well done machines, they are trained rigorously and put to the edge and back. Lots of cardio, stretching, wilderness, acrobatics and choreography. Super Chambara if you will, as for actual ability not sure. I don't think he is a joke of a martial artist but I do see the Ninja thing as being used for marketing purposes. Rick has one of the best promo CRROMS I have ever seen. I would take his camp if I had the cash or the time, or if I was trying out for an olympic gymnastics team. The course for 6 months or so live in is about 3000 bucks USD. I believe.

[Deaf]

Originally posted by Bujingodai
Rick has one of the best promo CRROMS I have ever seen. I would take his camp if I had the cash or the time, or if I was trying out for an olympic gymnastics team. The course for 6 months or so live in is about 3000 bucks USD. I believe.

I rather take that money and stay in Japan for awhile :) Seems like a better investment and a jolly good beatin time!

~Deaf~

[Lawman9]

This guy sounds like an entreprenauer instead of a martial artist. Oh well, to each his own.

[blood shadow]

tew ryu ninjutsu really now.

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

I honestly don't know which is the greater tragedy, the fact that people like this guy, Frank Dux, Ashida Kim etc etc will make offers that re out of this world/borderline ridiculous or that people will buy into them believing that a couple weekends of training will turn them into a tried and true ninja warrior *sigh*

[Masshiro]

isnt Frank Dux the character VanDamn played in BloodSport?

[BLACK LION]

isnt Frank Dux the character VanDamn played in BloodSport?

Correct.

[Chris Parker]

"Character" possibly being the most appropriate term here...

[ElfTengu]

I remember years ago, in the days of dial-up before broadband, it took all day to download the Tew Ryu Promo, and boy was I disappointed.

The flying kicks from rock to rock would have looked cool to the average 14-year-old but other than that, apart from keeping people active there is little of merit to it.

I am actually surprised in these days of ninjutsu having such a bad press, that people aren't turning their backs on the name 'ninjutsu/ninjitsu' and moving onto something more commercially viable like MMA, or inventing Bolivian Jiu Jitsu (Bolivia is next door to Brazil, do you see what I did there?)

I mean, if real ninjutsu is becoming widely regarded as useless rubbish in the wider martial arts community, then the fake versions are really up against it!

Having said that, there are now plenty of fake MMA gyms out there too, so nobody is immune. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery but it sure is annoying.

[fightingpower]

I saw a home study course in COMBAT magazine the other day and that had picturesof Hatsumi Sensei and was advertising home study BUJINKAN. Surely this can't be right. I always had an image of him being relatively authentic. Not knowing much about Ninjitsu I could be wrong. I read Steven K Hayes book years ago and seemed like a good traditionalist?


Hmmm. Home study Ninjitsu. That sounds too good to be true.

[Chris Parker]

Oh boy. I might just jump on this before some of the more impassioned get on board.

A few Bujinkan instructors have produced "Home Study" courses, most notably Richard Van Donk Shihan (15th Dan, for the record), however I would be very surprised to find one from Hatsumi Sensei. More likely it is someone using an image of Hatsumi to show the validity of their offer, here's Hatsumi, I'm a real member, this is all good kind of thing.

By and large, though, home study courses are considered a (VERY) poor substitute for real education under a certified and qualified teacher. They are really a last resort if there is no way you can get to a real school. Oh, and you may notice that Chucks orginal post was quite a while ago.

As for Stephen Hayes, that has been an issue in the Bujinkan for a little while now. Hayes was the first American to study in Japan and return to teach in the West (for the record, though, not the first Western student in Japan, nor even the first American student. That would be a young Terry Dobson with an even younger Ellis Amdur accompanying him, and Doron Navon of Israel being the first Westerner). However, Hayes has been gradually moving further and further from the teachings of the Bujinkan mainstream, forming his Toshindo organisation, and having fewer trips to Japan. As a result of these and other circumstances, his 10th Dan plaque was publically taken down at the Hombu Dojo a while ago, with his status in the Bujinkan suffering (to put it lightly).

While Hayes was a very good introduction to the art (many of us came to Ninjutsu through him, and other books such as the one by Andy Adams), a great deal of what was written was Hayes' personal interpretation, and things such as the emphasis on Mikkyo etc. are simply not fucused on by the Japanese. So read the books, take them as another perspective, but bringing his name up with Bujinkan members will not gain much credibilty I am afraid.

The most common line you will get is that to learn, you need to go to a Bujinkan school, and learn from a Bujinkan teacher. I would say that you can go and learn from anyone you want, but for Ninjutsu the teacher/organisation needs to be able to demonstrate a history including Hatsumi at some point. For Bujinkan, you need Bujinkan, but for Ninjutsu, you also have Genbukan, Jinenkan, and other split-off groups.

Hope this helps a bit, trying to avoid the (sometimes) angry responses some names can ellicit...

PS Just re-read your post, and had to go to this "(in reference to Hatsumi Sensei) I always had an image of him being relatively authentic." Yeah, he's pretty authentic. In fact, he is the holder of the only recognised lineages of Ninjutsu left in Japan by the Japanese government. Others, such as Tanemura Sensei, also hold Mastership and higher in the same or related lineages, but as far as I know, Hatsumi Sensei is still the only one recognised. So, yes, authentic is definately the word.

[fightingpower]

Yea,

You don't have to convince me that home study is bad. My whole point was that I was suprised to see this master attached to this shambles of an idea. I think Ninjitsu suffers from an eccentric view that isn't true when you have a good look at it. Was just curious about that so popped in, no offence intended. I am aJapanese stylist and appreciate Ninja Arts from what I have seenquite immpresive. Its a shame there are so many unacredited styles/instructors it makes it hard for the begginer to have a real look at the style, wouldn't you agree?

Just wacthed some of the pretty immpresive videos from U tube while I was here also, not bad. Nice Ju-jutsu style take downs. An unusual style to watch.

Oh and you are also correct I just looked and it is that 'Donk' guy. I take it he is somebody to be avoided?

[Bruno@MT]

Oh boy. I might just jump on this before some of the more impassioned get on board.


:-popcorn:




By and large, though, home study courses are considered a (VERY) poor substitute for real education under a certified and qualified teacher. They are really a last resort if there is no way you can get to a real school.


Additionally, DVDs and books are used in some systems (Genbukan) as a training aid. But this is always in conjunction with training under a real teacher.



PS Just re-read your post, and had to go to this "(in reference to Hatsumi Sensei) I always had an image of him being relatively authentic." Yeah, he's pretty authentic. In fact, he is the holder of the only recognised lineages of Ninjutsu left in Japan by the Japanese government. Others, such as Tanemura Sensei, also hold Mastership and higher in the same or related lineages, but as far as I know, Hatsumi Sensei is still the only one recognised. So, yes, authentic is definately the word.

Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei received their menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu from Hatsumi sensei himself.

In case of Tanemura sensei, there is also the lineage via Fukumoto sensei.
But regardless of that special circumstance, is there a reason why Tanemura sensei and Manaka sensei would not automatically be recognized as authentic ninjutsu masters through their menkyo kaiden from Hatsumi sensei?

[Chris Parker]

Absolutely agreed, Bruno. All I meant was that Hatsumi Sensei was the only one recognised as head of these arts by the Japanese Government as far as I know (if Tanemura Sensei or Manaka Sensei have been given similar status I am unaware of it, but I would be far from surprised - particularly Tanemura Sensei).

There is no question of their legitimacy at all. Just who the Japanese government chooses to acknowledge as the head of the systems. But as Hatsumi was the only one mentioned, he was the only one I was addressing. Each of the gentlemen mentioned are incredibly skilled, highly respected teachers of the arts, and I mean no slur on any of them.

As for whether or not to avoid Van Donk Shihan, all I would say is that if your only way to learn is via a home training system, it is one of the easiest to follow, but is still never a recommendation. As Bruno said, these are always best used as suppliments to a real teacher. Van Donk Shihan certainly has his detractors as well as his fans, I am keeping my personal views back at this point, as I am not a member of the Bujinkan, and it is more proper for their own members to let you know how well he represents them.

[Bruno@MT]

Thanks Chris, I know you were not implying anything about Tanemura sensei or Manaka sensei, but I was just wondering about the administrative side of things. Hence my question.

I once read somewhere that in China and Japan, bureaucracy is sometimes considered an art, like tea ceremony, and that some people are considered masters in it. So it would not have surprised me if there was a great collection of arcane rules governing everything traditional, from koryu to flower arranging. :)

EDIT: as an aside: one of the reasons that using a book alone is not a good idea, is that many martial arts books, especially those about traditional arts contain many intentional mistakes to make them useless to those people without actual teacher.
Someone who has had the techniques taught to him or her, will be able to use the book as a guide because he knows what is correct and what is wrong.

[Troy Wideman]

HI Chris,

Just curious about your one statement, that Hatsummi was the only one recongnized by the Japanese government to be the head of these arts. What arts are you refering to and what recongnization are you talking about. If it was the Japanese award he received a little while ago, it was not to recongnize his position in the ryu ha.


Kind Regards,

Troy

[stephen]

All I meant was that Hatsumi Sensei was the only one recognised as head of these arts by the Japanese Government.


I am a Bujinkan student, with nothing but great respect for Hatsumi sensei, but I don't think this is actually true. If so, it's great, but could you direct me to a source?

[Chris Parker]

The constant thing I have heard is in reference, I believe, primarily to Togakure Ryu. Essentially, from what I understand, the listing is similar to the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, but includes listing such as Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu as a National Treasure. In order to relieve confusion about the arts, Hatsumi Sensei was recognised as the only legitimate teacher of the Ninja arts (at the time - early 70's). So no, I don't believ this refers to the Japanese Government Award, but accounts from the 70's (that I freely admit may have been mistranslated or embelished, to say the least).

As I said, he is by no means the only qualified or authentic teacher now, but I haven't heard any update for the other masters. Whether or not this recognition is still viable would be another question, and one I don't have an answer for. Should anyone have any different account, I will be very happy to learn better.

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Chris,

The Bugei Ryu ha Daijiten does not imply he is the recongnized head. This book was put together by a person, not the government. The government has never taken a position on this and they would not take the time to do so in my opinion. They would be tied up in way to many court cases, hahaha. As we all know the matter of menkyo kaiden and soke can get very mixed up. The Japanese government to my knowledge has never stated Hatsummi is the recognized head of all the arts. I am not saying Hatusmmi isn't soke of some because he is. I am just saying that the Japanese government has never come out and made this statement about the Bujinkan. The award Hatusmmi received was for cultural exchange which he has worked hard at and deserves it. I believe all Bujinkan members are proud of this award and they should be, it was a nice one for the organization.


Kind Regards,

Troy

[Chris Parker]

Hi Troy,

Agreed, the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten has appeared in a few different editions, and was put together by Kiyoshi Watatani and Tadashi Yamada. The dates, from memory, were 1963 (original edition) and 1978 (final edition). I do not believe the Government listiing I had heard about is taken from this list, just that the list is in a similar format.

As I stated, I believe it is more in line with recognising Katori Shinto Ryu (as a National Treasure) than simply trying to arbitrate who is really in charge of any particular Ryu. As you said, that would be a legal and bureaucratic nightmare no-one would want... And I don't believe it was a statement about the Bujinkan as a whole, more for Togakure Ryu (and possibly Kumogakure, but I doubt it given the time) in the 70's. Whether it was requested or not I don't know, nor if it was simply made up (a distinct possibility I freely admit).

In the end, though, Hatsumi Sensei is a very skilled, experienced, and talented teacher of his inherrited systems, as is Tanemura Sensei, as is Manaka Sensei. The only reason this was brought up was the question was raised over his authenticity, and it was a claim I had heard a number of times, which often (but not always) lends credence.

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Chris,

No problem, just thought I would clear it up though. That is how information gets messed up and people start to take it as truth. The japanese gov't has never stepped in and clarified any teachers (ninpo) right to a specific ryu ha. There are way tooooo many lines to do this, gets to be a headache at times. I leave it to guys like George, hahahah, to figure out. Even though I have my own sources, hahaha. Anyways, hope all is well your way. Good training.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

[Thems Fighting Words]

A few Bujinkan instructors have produced "Home Study" courses, most notably Richard Van Donk Shihan (15th Dan, for the record), however I would be very surprised to find one from Hatsumi Sensei. More likely it is someone using an image of Hatsumi to show the validity of their offer, here's Hatsumi, I'm a real member, this is all good kind of thing.

Um don't take this the wrong way mate, but 15th dan? I thought tenth was the highest in Japanese systems. I've met 8th to 10ths dans / degrees (for red belt systems) and it took them 40 to 60 years for their rank. Seeing as each rank often doubles the amount of the the previous one, how long does it take to be 15th dan.

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Up until a while ago, 10th Dan was the highest rank you could hold in the Bujinkan, then Hatsumi Sensei upped the grading rank, and now we have 15th dan rankings. I'm not really sure why, but I assume it's a money thing. Either way, I'm not too fond of this 15th dan ranking system, it seems unnecessary.

[Cryozombie]

Um don't take this the wrong way mate, but 15th dan? I thought tenth was the highest in Japanese systems. I've met 8th to 10ths dans / degrees (for red belt systems) and it took them 40 to 60 years for their rank. Seeing as each rank often doubles the amount of the the previous one, how long does it take to be 15th dan.




Up until a while ago, 10th Dan was the highest rank you could hold in the Bujinkan, then Hatsumi Sensei upped the grading rank, and now we have 15th dan rankings. I'm not really sure why, but I assume it's a money thing. Either way, I'm not too fond of this 15th dan ranking system, it seems unnecessary.

10-15 do exist in the Bujinkan. Its been discussed a lot as to the reason why and a search, if you actually care to know why these were created will turn up a rather old interview with Hatsumi where he explains there were certain levels of the training that did not translate into "Dan Ranks" per se, but to simplyfy the concepts for the western mind, he started calling them 11th dan, 12th dan, etc etc... I doubt I can do justice to the explaination better than the article, so search it out if you actually care...

OR... instead of researching it, lets just come online call it a money thing and be done with it, eh?

Bad Shinobi, no Cookie for you!

[Thems Fighting Words]

10-15 do exist in the Bujinkan. Its been discussed a lot as to the reason why and a search, if you actually care to know why these were created will turn up a rather old interview with Hatsumi where he explains there were certain levels of the training that did not translate into "Dan Ranks" per se, but to simplyfy the concepts for the western mind, he started calling them 11th dan, 12th dan, etc etc... I doubt I can do justice to the explaination better than the article, so search it out if you actually care...

OR... instead of researching it, lets just come online call it a money thing and be done with it, eh?

Bad Shinobi, no Cookie for you!

It's interesting to me because I had no knowledge of these extra dans. I could research it myself but not being a practitioner of ninjutsui I wouldn't know which sources to trust.

[Bruno@MT]

It's interesting to me because I had no knowledge of these extra dans. I could research it myself but not being a practitioner of ninjutsui I wouldn't know which sources to trust.

I am not in Bujinkan, but I read about these extra dan grades when doing my 'ninja research' when I just started.

My understanding (which may not be 100% accurate) is that these extra dan grades represent 1 of the 5 'elements' :fire, water, etc..

These elements have an influence on the techniques that are used. For example, 'fire' techniques are more agressive, while water technques rely more on 'going with the flow' (my explanation here is not correct, but you get my meaning).

Mastery of each of those elements is linked to a dan grade. But as you probably see, this doe not mean that 1 of those dan grades is not really higher than another. They just indicate mastery over different element.

[Thems Fighting Words]

I am not in Bujinkan, but I read about these extra dan grades when doing my 'ninja research' when I just started.

My understanding (which may not be 100% accurate) is that these extra dan grades represent 1 of the 5 'elements' :fire, water, etc..

These elements have an influence on the techniques that are used. For example, 'fire' techniques are more agressive, while water technques rely more on 'going with the flow' (my explanation here is not correct, but you get my meaning).

Mastery of each of those elements is linked to a dan grade. But as you probably see, this doe not mean that 1 of those dan grades is not really higher than another. They just indicate mastery over different element.
Ah, that makes sense. Kind of an extra curriculum / skills set. Thanks for that mate.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am not in Bujinkan, but I read about these extra dan grades when doing my 'ninja research' when I just started.

My understanding (which may not be 100% accurate) is that these extra dan grades represent 1 of the 5 'elements' :fire, water, etc..

These elements have an influence on the techniques that are used. For example, 'fire' techniques are more agressive, while water technques rely more on 'going with the flow' (my explanation here is not correct, but you get my meaning).

Mastery of each of those elements is linked to a dan grade. But as you probably see, this doe not mean that 1 of those dan grades is not really higher than another. They just indicate mastery over different element.


I would not quite say that it is like that. The Godai as you reference above it more of a Stephen Hayes and To Shin Do than a Bujinkan thing. In the Bujinkan it is a method of counting and really nothing more.

Here is a quick link to Dale Seago's site with a short explanation on it:
http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks

Another link:
http://www.winjutsu.com/bbtaikaiarticle.htm

[Cryozombie]

It's interesting to me because I had no knowledge of these extra dans. I could research it myself but not being a practitioner of ninjutsui I wouldn't know which sources to trust.

I did a quick search, because, as I said it's been years since I looked it up... all I keep finding is a Black Belt magazine article where they ask him why he added the rank, and he replies, the rank has always existed no one has had it before... kind of a dismissive answer, and not as complete as the other one I saw when I started researching that very question...

[stephen]

I'm not really sure why, but I assume it's a money thing.

Anyone who says this is showing that they really have zero idea how this all works. I don't really feel it's my place to publicly discuss the fee structure of Bujinkan rank, but just let me say that it's clear that this is not the case.


In the Bujinkan it is a method of counting and really nothing more.

It's not just in the Bujinkan that it's a method of counting. It functions that way in the days of the week, for example.

Another interesting parallel to ranking (maybe the clearest I have seen) is:



The most common representations today of the five elements, outside of martial arts and fictional references (such as in anime), are found in Buddhist architecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_architecture). Many pagodas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagoda) (仏塔 buttō) in Japan are of the Gojū-no-Tō (五重塔) style, meaning they have five tiers or levels. Each tier, naturally, represents one of the elements, beginning with chi ("earth") at the bottom, and ending with kū ("void" or "sky") at the top. Often, the spire at the top is also divided into five sections.

[Bruno@MT]

I would not quite say that it is like that. The Godai as you reference above it more of a Stephen Hayes and To Shin Do than a Bujinkan thing. In the Bujinkan it is a method of counting and really nothing more.

Here is a quick link to Dale Seago's site with a short explanation on it:
http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#ranks

Another link:
http://www.winjutsu.com/bbtaikaiarticle.htm

Thanks for correcting me Brian!

My information must have come from a comparison between TSH and Bujinkan, or something like that.

[Chris Parker]

Just to add one last point on the 11th to 15th Dan rankings, I have heard a number of times that the levels 11 - 15 are subdivisions of 10th Dan, and are named for the various elements (I believe this is what you were getting at, Bruno). As a result, 11th Dan is refered to as Judan Chigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Earth level), 12th as Judan Suigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Water level) etc. For ease of understanding, and to reduce confusion, these are commonly refered to as 11th to 15th Dans.

In terms of the reason for the higher grades, it should be remembered that the grading system of any orgaisation is decided by the authority. 10th Dan may be considered the standard, but it is not universal, nor certainly mandatory to be followed. Hatsumi Sensei has stated that in fuedal Japan a warrior was considered to have come of age at 15, and was considered an adult at that point. Therefore, 15th Dan would represent a full maturation in the art, an "adult" practitioner, if you will. He did then go on to say that in modern terms, you are an adult at 21, so maybe he should increase it again!

[Bruno@MT]

Just to add one last point on the 11th to 15th Dan rankings, I have heard a number of times that the levels 11 - 15 are subdivisions of 10th Dan, and are named for the various elements (I believe this is what you were getting at, Bruno). As a result, 11th Dan is refered to as Judan Chigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Earth level), 12th as Judan Suigyo Happo Biken (10th Dan Water level) etc. For ease of understanding, and to reduce confusion, these are commonly refered to as 11th to 15th Dans.


Thanks Chris. Yes, this is the thing I was referring to.

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Thanks for correcting me, Cryozombie (sleep with one eye open)

Bruno, thanks for that insight on the subdivisions of the Chudan levels. I hadn't been aware of that, and I considered it pretty cool. Then, hearing Chris's reference to the genpuku ceremony at 15 also made the 15th dan ranking make more sense.

Either way, it seems cooler to me now.

[Cryozombie]

Thanks for correcting me, Cryozombie (sleep with one eye open)

(o) ---

[HKToshindo]

As for Stephen Hayes, that has been an issue in the Bujinkan for a little while now. Hayes was the first American to study in Japan and return to teach in the West (for the record, though, not the first Western student in Japan, nor even the first American student. That would be a young Terry Dobson with an even younger Ellis Amdur accompanying him, and Doron Navon of Israel being the first Westerner). However, Hayes has been gradually moving further and further from the teachings of the Bujinkan mainstream, forming his Toshindo organisation, and having fewer trips to Japan. As a result of these and other circumstances, his 10th Dan plaque was publically taken down at the Hombu Dojo a while ago, with his status in the Bujinkan suffering (to put it lightly).

This is incorrect. Anshu Hayes has given the correct version of events. Please look at the following post.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1171966#post1171966

[Chris Parker]

Hi HK, welcome aboard.

To state things fairly, I am not a member fo the Bujinkan, Toshindo or other large Ninjutsu organisation, hwever I am a member of the original schools here in Melbourne, under the first Australian to teach the art (Bujinkan back in the day). I personally have a great deal of respect for Sensei Hayes, and feel he is owed a huge debt of gratitude for all the work he has done and all he has achieved in spreading the art worldwide. That said...

There have been numerous accounts of Hayes' plaque being taken down, first-hand accounts by students in Japan at the time, mention on many boards, including the Bujinkans' own, and, to date, no actual denial by any member involved. If you read through the interview with Sensei Hayes carefully, you may notice that the tenses used are all past when talking about Hatsumi Sensei and his training under him. The reason given for the removal of the plaque, as I understand it, is nothing to do with lack of knowledge, training, background, understanding, skill etc, but more to do with the movement away from the current Bujinkan training. You may notice that this is something that Hayes himself talks about (refering to the "ninjutsu training in the 70's" as opposed to the "Budo Taijutsu of today").

So the interview you refered to is actually very cleverly worded to give a link back to Hatsumi still, but doesn't deny the removal of the plaque (instead simply saying that Hayes has yet to hear from Hatsumi if he is out of the family, so to speak), and in all other regards actually supports everything I stated (save earlier students... but that is very well documented as well. Hayes was not the earliest American student, he was the earliest American certified teacher. Small difference).

The thing to remember when reading anything is the agenda behind it, whether from Hayes or Hatsumi, or anyone else, including myself and others here. But, as stated, I have no vested interest in Toshindo or the Bujinkan, so my agenda is just clear information. Take from it what you will.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here is the Bujinkan's dojo administrator's account of the situation taken from his bulletin board.






Now personally I feel that Stephen Hayes brought a lot of great exposure to the Bujinkan and from all accounts of people that I personally know that have trained with him he is an excellent martial practitioner! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

It is concrete that he is doing his own thing with To Shin Do and more power to him. It should also be as no surprise the actions that Hatsumi took. This happens in all organizations so we might as well get over it!


In the martial world people train, grow and advance and some times people take another step and go out on their own. Good luck to Mr. Hayes and To Shin Do! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[jks9199]

This is incorrect. Anshu Hayes has given the correct version of events. Please look at the following post.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1171966#post1171966
Like any other event, there are at least 2 sides. (Probably several more in this case...) Neither side is presenting the whole truth; George Ohashi doesn't know why Maasaki Hatsumi had the name plate taken down, or what he meant by it, and Stephen Hayes is (quite understandably) presenting the events and meaning in the best light for him. And nobody but Hayes and Hatsumi knows what their relationship is.

And, in the end, it's immaterial to anyone else. If you train in Toshindo, the Bujinkan, or anything else, and are satisfied with your training, then that's all that matters.