Claims on the Internet.

[RyuShiKan]

Claims on the Internet.

Lately there has been much dispute over dubious claims made on the Internet and people unwilling to corroborate their claims. Mind you this is not aimed at anyone specific since I have come across several such cases over the last 2 or 3 years.

There are certain folks that think we should overlook dubious claims if the person or persons have the proper ability or skill level in whatever it is they do.

Is it me or does this type of thinking sound a bit off not to mention dishonest.

By their rational I could declare to have gotten a PhD. from Harvard and it wouldn’t matter if I really ever went there as long as I knew my subject matter well enough, and anyone that dare doubt my claim and ask me for my credentials is nothing more than an unhappy trouble maker.

Companies will often ask to see a persons diploma, grade point averages and letters of reference………..why do you think that is?
Maybe they are just part of this big group of unhappy troublemakers that have nothing better to do.
In the martial arts world there are people that have faked or claimed certain credentials when in fact they had no connection to that particular school or teacher. Either way, be academics or MAs it is still committing a type of fraud. If we turn a blind eye to such things are we not also guilty of perpetuating that same lie. Kind of like if you are not part of the solution you’re part of the problem……

People have commented that if you really doubt their skill why don’t you go and check them out.
This has become the all too common “War Cry” for people that are on the defensive from making or being associated with folks that make just such dubious claims. They know it will never happen since most people won’t travel to the next state to do something like let alone visit someone they don’t care for, so they can feel safe in saying such things from the comfort of their chair.

I think, and this is my very limited psychological opinion, that people that claim multiple high (bogus) dan grades are similar to those women that buy lots of jewelry.
Some MA people need all those high dan grades to look, sound and feel more legit and those women that buy too much jewelery do so to make themselves feel more beautiful, and worthy of attention.

Having said that, many MA people that claim all those lofty ranks also make statements like “I have been in xxxx number of real life situations so I know what I am talking about because I have proved it in real life”.
Statements like these also are difficult if not impossible to corroborate.

I hold MA people to a higher level of integrity than non-MA people since MA people are supposed to have the skill and hopefully the responsibility to know where and when to use their art which has the potential to be deadly. Part of the responsibility of knowing a martial art is being a person of good moral character………lying and making fraudulent claims is not what I would call sound moral character.

[KenpoDragon]

Very well said,RYUSHIKAN,I agree with you on this matter,but I must say what specific,claims to fame are you referring to??? You have peeked my interest on this matter,I know of some individuals who claim this or that but which ones are you referring to?:mst: :samurai:

With Honor and Respect,
Mr.Tanaka:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

As I said earlier it is not aimed at specific individuals.
However, there are several folks out there that claim ranks over 5th dan in no less than 10 arts, some claim to be PhDs, one was is still claiming a PhD from a University he made up and was selling advanced University degrees and got busted for it.

[yilisifu]

I don't think RyuShihkan is pointing his finger at any one in particular. But on this board there have been people who claim high dan grades but who cannot or will not back them up, and if anyone questions their claim he/she is labelled as a "troublemaker."

[RyuShiKan]

Several people have claimed connections to Asian teachers and were found out to have no connection or at the very most met them for one day.
A few years ago someone claimed they were highly trained in and connected to a style my friend used to belong to here in Japan.
I made a phone call to ask my friend about this individual and come to find out that person had only met the head teacher of that style for one day and never actually trained with him. My friend remembered it well because when that person returned to the US they asked the Honbu he had visited for dan rank!
That same individual claimed rank in a style from Okinawa another phone call and he was proven yet again to be passing himself off as something he was not.

[Mike Clarke]

It is a mark of immaturity to claim things one has not earned or been awarded through legitimate means. This has not detured some folks though as we have seen on this board and others.

Claims on the net are often wild due to the space between those making the claims and those who are in a postion to [physically] prove them wrong. Also, one must not forget your point RSK, that even if an individual has some skill, it does not give them the rite to claim endorsment from groups or instructors they have not trained with.

Due to the nature of the net I doubt this problem will ever be solved? And due to the nature of some human beings, I doubt this problem will ever go away either? But you know such things are not new nore exclusive to the net.

I recognize people for what they are as I see them, not what they tell me they are. I observe them and make my own judgment. I expect others to do the same towards me. The certificates and deplomas I have been awarded over the years, I take as my teachers endorsment of my character and abilities, but I don't expect anyone else to automatically agree with them.

When people come to know me and see how I live and train, they will make their own minds up about me. Their opinion may or may not agree with that of my teachers, but as I'm concerned only in the views of my sensei, then I can live with other peoples opinions [either way] without concern.

Mike.

[Matt Stone]

RyuShiKan and I both knew an individual in Japan whose martial arts training and skill were at the very best dubious. His methods, techniques and claims to lineage and rank were more akin to a comic book than traditional martial arts.

I knew another person who claimed to hold 5th dan or higher in 9 different arts. He was 23.

While they were both very kind people, what concerns me the most about what they do is the fact that people who are ignorant of the effectiveness of any particular martial art will train with them, achieve a rank at some point, and think they are empowered with their skills and training to be capable of defending themselves against attacks.

When people either create their own art from arts they have studied (often not long enough to realize that what they think they are contributing to the MA community already exists in various forms in all of the arts they previously studied), or create their own art out of thin air, they do the public a huge disservice. They are presenting themselves as purveyors of material that is dangerous - not to the attacker, but to the consumer.

It is for reasons like this that there are laws against committing fraud. And fraud is exactly what it is.

Sure, a person can study multiple arts. Sure, a person could possibly achieve rank in multiple arts. But sometimes you have to admit that enough is enough.

"Instructors" who are of dubious background and training, who either cannot or will not come clean about the reality of their background (I have heard it told that Olaf Simon of Temple Kung Fu fame never studied martial arts a day in his life... :confused: ), are doing nothing more than stealing the fees from their unwitting students, and it is no less a theft than if the money were conned from them in a hundred other ways.

I disagree with organizations for a lot of reasons, but one good reason for them is to ensure standards are maintained and that people are unable to say they are something that in fact they are not.

Just my humble and devalued 2 yen...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

When people either create their own art from arts they have studied (often not long enough to realize that what they think they are contributing to the MA community already exists in various forms in all of the arts they previously studied), they do the public a huge disservice. They are presenting themselves as purveyors of material that is dangerous - not to the attacker, but to the consumer.

It is for reasons like this that there are laws against committing fraud. And fraud is exactly what it is.


Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I do not agree at all. Fraud is fraud. But just because some people choose to walk a differant path does not mean that is pure crap and not work.

I beleive it "can be" crap or fake but is not automatically crap. Bruce told my Sigung that his fighters were competent within 18 months. At that time, that was unheard of in the martial arts. He did not learn a complete system. Was he afraud? Did he teach material that was dangerous to the consumer.

No to both questions.

[Matt Stone]

Akja -

Two things -

#1: If you are going to quote me, quote all of what I say so that things will appear in context. You failed to do so in my reply, and the excerpt you quoted was linked intimately to the sentence that followed it.

#2: If a person studies something only partially, and decides after said partial study that they belive the field of study to be lacking in certain particulars, how do they know that said particulars do not simply exist within the portion they have yet to study?

Brucie only studied part of what Wing Chun had to offer. His education in it was lacking. If it was a question of mobility, then perhaps rather than discounting Wing Chun's effectiveness in that area he could have delved further into it to discover in what ways Wing Chun does away with the perception of weakness in that area.

Or he could just make up his own thing instead.

Much easier to go the second route for most people, especially those who are bent on defrauding the public in order to pay the bills and feed their families. Noble motivations, surely, but the deed remains criminally negligent.

Did Brucie's experiment work? Dunno. I've never fought a JKD person. My teacher was a JKD chapter leader at one point, and his opinion is that JKD blows goats. Dunno. I've never trained in JKD. What I do know, however, is that in only a few well publicized and documented instances, making a call regarding a particular arts lack of something is often done either far too early, or with too little information.

Karate doesn't have joint locks or throws.

Jujutsu doesn't know how to punch or kick.

Taijiquan is just slow motion forms without any real fighting skill.

Wing Chun just stands still.

Arnis has no powerful kicks or punches.

Kenpo never hits you solidly, they just slap you to death.

All of these are assumptions that could be made readily from a knowledge of the above mentioned styles that is sorely lacking in depth (as all of the above statement are, at least in great part, false).

Finally, if I study two arts, both of which I state to be deficient in some particulars, then I create my own style, from whence does my "new and improved" style stem? If I never learned anything of sufficient worth, how then do I create something out of the blue that is somehow better than the sum of its parts?

Can't be done.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Akja -

Two things -

#1: If you are going to quote me, quote all of what I say so that things will appear in context. You failed to do so in my reply, and the excerpt you quoted was linked intimately to the sentence that followed it.

#2: If a person studies something only partially, and decides after said partial study that they belive the field of study to be lacking in certain particulars, how do they know that said particulars do not simply exist within the portion they have yet to study?

Brucie only studied part of what Wing Chun had to offer. His education in it was lacking. If it was a question of mobility, then perhaps rather than discounting Wing Chun's effectiveness in that area he could have delved further into it to discover in what ways Wing Chun does away with the perception of weakness in that area.

Or he could just make up his own thing instead.

Much easier to go the second route for most people, especially those who are bent on defrauding the public in order to pay the bills and feed their families. Noble motivations, surely, but the deed remains criminally negligent.

Did Brucie's experiment work? Dunno. I've never fought a JKD person. My teacher was a JKD chapter leader at one point, and his opinion is that JKD blows goats. Dunno. I've never trained in JKD. What I do know, however, is that in only a few well publicized and documented instances, making a call regarding a particular arts lack of something is often done either far too early, or with too little information.

Karate doesn't have joint locks or throws.

Jujutsu doesn't know how to punch or kick.

Taijiquan is just slow motion forms without any real fighting skill.

Wing Chun just stands still.

Arnis has no powerful kicks or punches.

Kenpo never hits you solidly, they just slap you to death.

All of these are assumptions that could be made readily from a knowledge of the above mentioned styles that is sorely lacking in depth (as all of the above statement are, at least in great part, false).

Finally, if I study two arts, both of which I state to be deficient in some particulars, then I create my own style, from whence does my "new and improved" style stem? If I never learned anything of sufficient worth, how then do I create something out of the blue that is somehow better than the sum of its parts?

Can't be done.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I left off the "or" part of the sentence because thats how I readit as being "either or".

Second no 2 JKD's are the same. So your Sifu's experience can't reflect all.

Ca Yili be judged that easily?

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Akja -

Finally, if I study two arts, both of which I state to be deficient in some particulars, then I create my own style, from whence does my "new and improved" style stem? If I never learned anything of sufficient worth, how then do I create something out of the blue that is somehow better than the sum of its parts?

Can't be done.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

That is a great question.....

A question for you Yiliquan, how long do you think you need to study/train in a system before you can come to a point where you realise that what you are looking for is not going to be found within the system you are learning?

Respectfully,

[A.R.K.]

Fringe,

I would venture a minimum age of 22 and at least 3 years in a discipline would qualify an individual to have enough information to begin a new system.

'Claims on the internet'? Well how would one actually substantiate a claim to everyone's satisfaction. If the requirement is to belong to a certain organization...many would fail I think. Is it having a certain name on a certificate? I don't think anyone would say this. How about a certain lineage? No, I don't think that would say anything at all. The true test is skill, experience and perhaps teaching ability.

If individuals with Dan's in other systems seek you out to be trained by you, that is another validation point. Paper??? Doesn't mean a thing if it can't be backed up with action, at least at some point in the individuals life.

I think far to many people worry about what the other person has or claims and use the excuse of it 'damaging' the arts. A BB doesn't mean any more or less than what it means to you.

A low kyu belt might very well hand a sound beating to a high Dan in another style based on practical knowledge, experience in the real world and what is taught in either system. I put far more stock in real world experience than I do things such as kata known, years in service/grade, tournaments participated in/won, degrees of Dan 'earned'. The bottom line is what is done in defense of yourself or another. Not paper.

Yes far to much time and energy is spent in trying to 'keep the arts pure'. That is simply a catch phrase. Everything is subjective and relative. This cannot be denied.

Robert.....what is your Dan and in what style? Now can you 'prove' it to us here on martial talk?

:asian:

[fringe_dweller]

Wow.... three years?
I've been studying hapkido for three years now and I'm only half way through the colour belts. I would in no way consider myself ready to start my own style.

I guess when it comes down to it, someone starting their own style doesn't really worry me too much unless they claim that their style has roots in x, y and z. That's when deception kicks in.

Respectfully,

[Aegis]

To me, the idea of making up a new system after 3 years training is ridiculous! There is no way anyone is going to be experienced enough to teach their own system fully after three years, let alone make a new, better one. To my mind, three years should be about the point where you can take a full lesson for low grades under the supervision of your instructor. After 4 or 5 years, you might be trusted to run your own club, but would still need to be learning at another club on a regular basis.

I would certainly need a very good reason to even consider training under someone who has created their own system, especially after only a few years training.

[MartialArtist]

5th dan in 9 arts?

I've been training in TKD for decades, and it took over a decade to even get to 1st dan.

5th dan, even in McDojos/McDojangs, takes at least ten years. In McDojangs, I see that there's a test every month or so, and some black belt ranks have a point system where you have to get 5 to get a new dan. Even so, it takes a substantial amount of time.

Oh, BTW, I have eight black belts from eight different systems... Technically, I can get a white belt, dye it black, and I can say that I have a "black belt".

Minimum age of 22 and 3 years of experience to formulate a new system? Are you crazy? Almost all the traditional combat styles have hundreds if not thousands of years of refinement, and since human anatomy and physiology has remained the same, there are general principles and techniques found in every system. I don't think 3 years counts. Hell, a three year practitioner has nowhere near the experience or the skill level or the knowledge to develop his own system. No doubt that it will be a half-ass system which will try to "be different and unique" which basically means it will get you in trouble. That kind of ******** will get you killed. No question about it. I don't care how "clever" the "system" may be, if the founder of the system can't even hold his own against his own students, then I won't take it. And when you start a new system, new students as well as experienced students will look for your teachings. The experienced ones will find out sooner or later, and same with the beginners.

And Mya Ryu, you want RyuShiKan to prove his credibility? Why won't you check his sources?

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Aegis
To me, the idea of making up a new system after 3 years training is ridiculous! There is no way anyone is going to be experienced enough to teach their own system fully after three years, let alone make a new, better one. To my mind, three years should be about the point where you can take a full lesson for low grades under the supervision of your instructor. After 4 or 5 years, you might be trusted to run your own club, but would still need to be learning at another club on a regular basis.

I would certainly need a very good reason to even consider training under someone who has created their own system, especially after only a few years training.
I agree

To me, 3 years would be the end of the "conditioning" era which is more of getting you in shape, toughening you up, and learning a few of the basics and getting them down so you can get to the meat and the bread and butter.

[A.R.K.]

Well...

Dr. Jagoro Kano at the age of 22, after a few years training in Ju Jitsu founded the style now known as.....

JUDO

Bruce Lee, who to my knowledge never officially held a 'BB' founded JKD before the age of 30 as another example of ability overriding other considerations.

:asian:

[TLH3rdDan]

3 years???? no offense but what are you smoking? and can i have some? ok most arts have a minimum time in grade of 5 years to test for a BB, so 3 years would put you at the intermediate level of say a blue belt or a green belt... how can anyone even begin to think that someone that is that new to the arts can go out and create a new art... its not possible... again how can you think that an art is useless and has nothing to offer if you are only begining? if that was the case i could go out and study any art i wanted for 3 years stop go buy a black belt and a roll of red tape or maybe even a red striped black belt and proclaim my self the high muckity muck grand puba master of all masters and open a school teaching what ever i thought would work... with only a very very basic understanding of that one art and of course give it a new name in the process... its just not right... i would think in order to create a new art you should at least have studied the one art you are in till at least 4th or 5th dan then if you have not found what you are looking for try something different dont try making up a new one yet... cause as it has been stated... there is nothing new when it comes to martial arts... there are only so many ways to punch and kick and only so many ways to combine them effectively and news flash with all the arts that are out there im sure they have all been tried... just my 2 cents

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by fringe_dweller
A question for you Yiliquan, how long do you think you need to study/train in a system before you can come to a point where you realise that what you are looking for is not going to be found within the system you are learning?

How long until you know enough to start your own style/system?

Maybe only a lifetime or two... :D

Seriously? It really depends... I started training in Yiliquan in 1986. I got the equivalent to my 1st degree black belt in 1998. That was 12 years. I got the equivalent to my 2nd degree black belt in 2000. So 14 years just to get nidan grade... I still have so much to learn before I am competent enough to really feel I have a handle on all there is to learn. I'm not talking about knowing everything, being able to do everything, hell, I'm not even talking about having seen everything!

So for me, if I wanted to do the "Matt Stone-ryu" of Yiliquan, I'd have to put in at least another 20 years before I felt I knew the material I have been exposed to well enough to decide yea or nay on any part of it...

So for me, since I am currently 34, add 20 more years, and when I am in my mid-50s I might feel I am nearly to the point of understanding what I am doing well enough to say what I think should stay or go.

22 years old with 3 years of training? Please! :rolleyes: I don't trust soldiers that are 22 with 4 years of military service behind them to know what they are doing well enough to leave them unsupervised, much less to think that someone who has spent 3 years under the tutelage of Sensei Billy Ray at the local Super Discount Karate Dojo just inside the Wal-Mart Super Store entrance would know enough to start their own art! Not trying to be nasty, but that is flatly absurd!!!

Once upon a time, folks spent the bulk of their entire day training, day after day, under the direct supervision of their teacher. After a few years, they were well trained and knew quite a bit about their particular style. That simply isn't the fact with the modern world. The modern reality is that work, family and other activities curtial quite a bit of our training. I work from 0600 - 1700 everyday (including PT in the morning), and with an hour for lunch, a few hours with the kids doing homework, maybe some time for me and the wife, dinner, I am still going to bed around 2400 or 0100. Training gets squeezed in where it'll fit.

So for someone to say that after only a meager 3 years of training, on the average of a few hours a night 3 or 4 times a week (and let's be honest, folks, for most people that is a lot of training - perhaps not for those of us who dream about this crap in our sleep, or who do Naihanchi Shodan while standing at the copy machine, but for the Regular Joe that is a pretty gruelling schedule for "ka-rotty" class), they are ready to start their own style...?

I doubt it.

Average Joe +Average Ka-rotty School X Average Training Time = at least 15 years of training or more before they should even think about teaching, much less "creating" a "new" style. And even then I don't think they are really ready...

But, like anal sphincters, this opinion is mine and imperfect to boot. My teacher started his own style, sure. But not until after he had already spent decades training. And as a gruding nod to MRJ, in the years I have been doing Yiliquan I have seen it go from version 1.1 to 1.5 to 2.0 and we are still evolving and growing. So sure, he created it and unveiled it in 1982, but it has been developing since then... It is 21 years old now, and is beginning to solidify. Time has tested it, and so far it has survived. I have seen too many homegrown styles sprout and die on the vine in just the time I have been a Senior, much less over the years I have been training total.

Just my opinions, though...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[A.R.K.]

For those that might have missed it the first time :)


Dr. Jagoro Kano at the age of 22, after a few years training in Ju Jitsu founded the style now known as.....


...JUDO.

:asian:

[TLH3rdDan]

ok enlighten us and tell us how many hours a day he trained and how many days a week he trained and would a few be taken a 2 years or 3 years... and no offense to the wonderful judo community but isnt judo kinda incomplete when compared to the parent art of jujitsu? plus wasnt kanos whole goal of creating judo to make it into a sport?

[Aegis]

Jigoro Kano trained in jujutsu from a very young age, and had been training for almost his entire life before he founded Judo. In addition, the man was a visionary, something that only a handful of people in each generation can honestly claim to be.

Equating Jigoro Kano to a 22 year old with 3 years of "twice a week if lucky" studying is an insult to anyone who has ever studied Judo.

[Aegis]

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan
ok enlighten us and tell us how many hours a day he trained and how many days a week he trained and would a few be taken a 2 years or 3 years... and no offense to the wonderful judo community but isnt judo kinda incomplete when compared to the parent art of jujitsu? plus wasnt kanos whole goal of creating judo to make it into a sport?

Judo is complete. The modern sporting version of Judo isn't. Unfortunately people have lost track of the non-sporting side, so all people see is the sport judo. I'm hoping that when I finally get my dan in judo it will be in the original form, which the BJA is apparently considering re-adding to the syllabus as an alternative route through the grades. (note that this is merely rumour at this time)

[TLH3rdDan]

interesting posts aegis... thanks for clearing that up about kanos training... and i know this probably needs to be its own thread but what are the major differences between jujitsu and kanos original form of judo?

[A.R.K.]

Aegis,

Dr. Kano didn't begin training till he was 17 years of age. At 22 he developed Judo. My bad as I list 3, it was actually 5 years of training.


Equating Jigoro Kano to a 22 year old with 3 years of "twice a week if lucky" studying is an insult to anyone who has ever studied Judo.

I never mentioned the number of days per week he trained, that was another poster. And your missing the point entirely, there is no 'requirement' for founding something of value other than desire and focus. One does not have to have X amount of years or be of a certain age or belong to any particular group to contribute something of value. One must never be afraid to try something new if that is the desire regardless of others opinions to the contrary.

That is the point. As a result, look at the disciplines we now have to engage in.

:asian:

[Matt Stone]

The entire point, though, is this -

a) Kano was a man unique among the MA community. There have been relatively few arts of all the hundreds and likely thousands that have been "created" that have actually survived. Most were merely variations on a theme, an entirely different premise from creating an entirely new style.

b) Taking a parent art you have studied for a few years and paring it down, removing the dangerous content and leaving only a relatively small number of techniques remaining would be far easier than attempting to create a comprehensive fighting style out of nearly nothing at all.

c) The logic of a person studying a few styles, all of which he claims are lacking in particulars , how then is that person enabled to fill in the gaps with the techniques and methods that are missing from his education? If the person is mixing TKD kicks, Wing Chun punches and Judo throws, is the person really creating a new style, or is that just that person's method of fighting?

I have studied Yiliquan and Modern Arnis. I really liked the trapping I learned in Arnis, and I make use of it whenever I can. However, I don't have a new "style" of fighting just because I have an additional skill that isn't really included in Yiliquan in that particular fashion (though we do have Rolling Hands, which is somewhat similar in effect if not execution).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
One does not have to have X amount of years or be of a certain age or belong to any particular group to contribute something of value.

I don't think it is necessarily establishing an infallible benchmark at which point all persons applying for "new style founder" status will be eligible. But I do think it is a question of a generic understanding that it takes a number of years to learn the techniques, a number of years to integrate the techniques into a usable form, then a number of years to fully understand their application and variations, then a number of years to put them together into a cohesive mass... This takes time and can't be rushed.

Having something to contribute is something else entirely. Everyone has something to contribute of lesser or greater degree based on their perception and experience. But that doesn't mean Joe Schmucklenuts from Billy Ray's Discount Ka-rotty Warehouse can create his own style from his understanding of Raccoon Kata #4 and Trailer Park Waza 1- 8... :D

[A.R.K.]

If something has been done before...it can be done again.

The point is to make the effort. To not make the effort is to never know the results. My 'system' is not new under the sun, and it may not stand the test of time. Then again, perhaps it will. At any rate it has by the grace of God kept me safe and allowed me to return safetly at night. It has allowed others to do the same. To me that is the most important factor.

:asian:

[yilisifu]

Age 22 and 3 yrs. training? That's a good 10 kliks below preposterous.

A given system cannot truly be learned (completely) in less than 15 years anyway.

No, Bruce Lee did not study the full art of Wing Chun. On the other hand, he didn't claim to teach the whole art, either. He didn't call what he did "Wing Chun." If he had, he would have had a number of Wing Chun seniors on his doorstep.

He decided to do his own thing and he fessed up to that. And that's fine. He was honest enough to admit that it was something he created himself.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Claims on the Internet.

Lately there has been much dispute over dubious claims made on the Internet and people unwilling to corroborate their claims. Mind you this is not aimed at anyone specific since I have come across several such cases over the last 2 or 3 years.

There are certain folks that think we should overlook dubious claims if the person or persons have the proper ability or skill level in whatever it is they do.

Is it me or does this type of thinking sound a bit off not to mention dishonest.

By their rational I could declare to have gotten a PhD. from Harvard and it wouldn’t matter if I really ever went there as long as I knew my subject matter well enough, and anyone that dare doubt my claim and ask me for my credentials is nothing more than an unhappy trouble maker.

Companies will often ask to see a persons diploma, grade point averages and letters of reference………..why do you think that is?
Maybe they are just part of this big group of unhappy troublemakers that have nothing better to do.
In the martial arts world there are people that have faked or claimed certain credentials when in fact they had no connection to that particular school or teacher. Either way, be academics or MAs it is still committing a type of fraud. If we turn a blind eye to such things are we not also guilty of perpetuating that same lie. Kind of like if you are not part of the solution you’re part of the problem……

People have commented that if you really doubt their skill why don’t you go and check them out.
This has become the all too common “War Cry” for people that are on the defensive from making or being associated with folks that make just such dubious claims. They know it will never happen since most people won’t travel to the next state to do something like let alone visit someone they don’t care for, so they can feel safe in saying such things from the comfort of their chair.

I think, and this is my very limited psychological opinion, that people that claim multiple high (bogus) dan grades are similar to those women that buy lots of jewelry.
Some MA people need all those high dan grades to look, sound and feel more legit and those women that buy too much jewelery do so to make themselves feel more beautiful, and worthy of attention.

Having said that, many MA people that claim all those lofty ranks also make statements like “I have been in xxxx number of real life situations so I know what I am talking about because I have proved it in real life”.
Statements like these also are difficult if not impossible to corroborate.

I hold MA people to a higher level of integrity than non-MA people since MA people are supposed to have the skill and hopefully the responsibility to know where and when to use their art which has the potential to be deadly. Part of the responsibility of knowing a martial art is being a person of good moral character………lying and making fraudulent claims is not what I would call sound moral character.


There are alot of claims made in cyber space that can and never will be backed up!
If you dont mind Ill use you for example: You say you are whatever rank in whatever style some people here have met you and agree with your claims, some people have never met you and dont. My point is you cant prove it to them, you could tell those who dont believe you to check out this web site or call this shcool or orginization but for all they know they could be talking to one of your buddies or maybe even you. And even computer illiterate me can start my own web site, so who's to say what's right or wrong or who's fake and who's real.

[A.R.K.]

Yilisifu,


Age 22 and 3 yrs. training? That's a good 10 kliks below preposterous.

I suppose Judo practitioners who are satisfied with their discipline might disagree with you. Seems many people are quite satisfied with Kano's preposterous contribution.

:asian:

[chufeng]

That was five years, not three years...AND it may very well be that he wasn't considered a student until he reached a certain age...prior to that he was "less than a student...???"

I've read accounts where he started training at the age of seven...
I've read accounts where he started at teh age of eighteen...

Which is correct???

At any rate...five hours a day five or six days a week is equivalent to HOW many years of training as it is done in most dojos today?
Maybe 15 to 20 years of training as most folks do it nowadays...

I think it is important to differentiate the two...

Do some folks drive harder today than their peers? Of course, but they are few and far between.
Would that person qualify to start a new system? Maybe...
It depends on whether or not he really understood the guts of a system...

So, in answer to your question, yes and no, it depends...

But I would lean toward NO...

:asian:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
There are alot of claims made in cyber space that can and never will be backed up!
If you dont mind Ill use you for example: You say you are whatever rank in whatever style some people here have met you and agree with your claims, some people have never met you and dont. My point is you cant prove it to them, you could tell those who dont believe you to check out this web site or call this shcool or orginization but for all they know they could be talking to one of your buddies or maybe even you. And even computer illiterate me can start my own web site, so who's to say what's right or wrong or who's fake and who's real.

Y'know, DAC, over the past day or so, RSK and MRJ have managed to let the whole issue die... Why can't you?

Your argument is flawed.

If Person A claims X, then he should be able to prove it somehow. If Person A possesses some form of documentation, that should in most cases suffice. There must be, at some point, trust placed in their documentation.

If Person A is unable to show some form of documentation, then other forms of proof could be offered. Testimony of those with first hand knowledge supporting Person A's claims is one method, however it is usually not acceptable since those people are not guaranteed to be objective.

If I ask you to prove your certification as an LEO, what can you show me? A badge? I can buy one at the local surplus store. A certificate of training from your state run training facility? That would be better, since I could contact the city or state offices to verify its validity. But if you show me a document that cannot be proven to be valid, what then? Given that you claim to be something that should be verifiable through authorized and approved offices, your claim is not simply one of "well, the fact that I can cuff you with the best of them should be enough" simply isn't...

Now please, stop bringing it back up... We have all stated our cases, but you have brought this back up in TWO threads. Let it die already... :rolleyes:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
If you are going to quote me, quote all of what I say so that things will appear in context.

In fact, we discourage this as it takes up excess server space. Some day old threads will have to be moved offline--we don't want to hasten that time. Please, quote accurately and with context but do trim your quotes. The original article is always there for comparison.

If anyone feels it necessary in a given case to fully quote an article, please do so--but as a rule, please try to trim quotes.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[chufeng]

DAC,

See the horse?

Run horse, run.

See the horse fall?

Get up horse, get up!

See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.

See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?

Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!

But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...

Who will grab the bad boy?

???

a fable told by chufeng...
;)

[Matt Stone]

Arnisador -

I guess what I should have said was more along the lines of "if you are going to quote me, don't cut and paste selected portions of the text to suit your own commentary; quote me in context."

I don't quote entire posts unless I am addressing the entire post. If I can help it, I just quote the portion I am specifically replying to.

Sorry for the confusion.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Sorry for the confusion.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: [/B]

Your excused.:D

[Marginal]

I wonder how many styles that are being invented right now are actually worth anything? I've talked to multiple teens that are all trying to create their own arts, and not one of them has a clue as to why an art arose, or what the thinking was behind it all.

Give those types three years, and a useless mush'll result.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Well...

Dr. Jagoro Kano at the age of 22, after a few years training in Ju Jitsu founded the style now known as.....

JUDO

Bruce Lee, who to my knowledge never officially held a 'BB' founded JKD before the age of 30 as another example of ability overriding other considerations.

:asian:
I'm not the most knowledgeable on the topic of Kano.

However, Bruce lee didn't really found anything. His JKD was merely a combination of ideas, and he really wasn't the first person to come up with the idea either. He's just credited for its popularity, not for founding the principles. Bruce Lee's intention was that JKD wasn't an art, but rather something based on the individual. JKD is no art, and all arts as he quotes. Hell, almost every single person changes something to fit themselves better, regardless of art.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
If something has been done before...it can be done again.

The point is to make the effort. To not make the effort is to never know the results. My 'system' is not new under the sun, and it may not stand the test of time. Then again, perhaps it will. At any rate it has by the grace of God kept me safe and allowed me to return safetly at night. It has allowed others to do the same. To me that is the most important factor.

:asian:
If you try and look at it that way, then every person has their unique "style". What do I call my style? I can think of a clever name and market it also.

[Aegis]

From an easily accessible source on Judo (Judo Information Site (http://judoinfo.com/jhist.htm)):


Dr. Jigoro Kano, founder of modern Judo, was born in the town of Mikage in the Hyogo Prefecture, on October 28, 1860. Shihan Kano never viewed the martial arts as a means to display physical prowess or superiority. As a pacifist, he studied them to find a way to live in peace with other human beings. In his youth Kano studied Jujutsu under a number of different masters. Sensei Teinosuke Yagi was his first teacher, but at the age of 18 he entered the dojo of Tenshin-Shinyo Sensei Hachinosuke Fukuda. Upon graduation from Tokyo University, he studied the Kito tradition under Sensei Iikubo. By his mid-twenties, Shihan Kano had been initiated into the secret teachings of both ryus.

(emphasis mine)

Doesn't sound like he started at 17 now, does it?

See, at the age of 18 he changed masters, which is probably what has people like you confused. If you are concerned about how quickly he got his "inner secret" training within this art, then remember that he had been training for some years in a different style of jujutsu before coming to this master, so wouldn't have had to go as slowly as normal novices.

Remember that what defined Judo wasn't a set of new moves, or an unbeatable new style, it was instead a principle (maximising efficiency). If I recall correctly, this basically meant mastering a few of the old techniques first, then expanding on them, rather than Jujutsu, where you would learn bits of everything and gradually get good at all of them.

Essentially there wasn't much difference initially between Judo and some styles of jujutsu. What changed was the ability to practise Judo at full pace on someone else under controlled circumstances (randori). After a while, the more dangerous elements were reduced to kata form only, and eventually forgotten completely.

Not that I can say for sure, but I believe that a lot of styles of Jujutsu today would almost be Judo in its original form, as they follow the same principals and training methods as judo did at its creation.

His other contribution was the introduction of a set of ethics, which still live on in a lot of martial artists, but have been lost on others: good character, honest conduct, etc.

So, what am I saying? I'm saying that Kano did NOT try to create something new, nor did he do what he did for glory's sake. He revolutionised teaching methods by coming up with safe ways of training while not losing the deadliness of technique. I doubt many people since then can claim to have had such a huge influence on martial arts.


My general advice on creating a new system is this: if you have nothing new to offer, don't start a new system. Until you have attained a level of mastery in one or more arts, you are not likely to have anything new to offer.

[yilisifu]

Yes. Dr. Kano had studied jujutsu for quite some time before developing judo.

It is well to remember also that in the "old days", a given "style" was usually tested in battle. If it didn't work, it's creator died. I'm sure there were many "new styles" created back then that we've never heard of because of this.
Nowadays, the law tends to get kind of persnickety about duelling and wars aren't fought with sticks and swords...

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Aegis

My general advice on creating a new system is this: if you have nothing new to offer, don't start a new system. Until you have attained a level of mastery in one or more arts, you are not likely to have anything new to offer. [/B]

The major differances is that more and more schools are adding some form of ground grappling. Whether it be more defense against a ground grappler, all out ground grappling or a portion of class time "understanding" ground grappling.

People seem to be down on new systems, but the high numbers of martial artists makes new systems some thing that are here to stay.

See this thread:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=116127#post116127

The way I train is my way, about 65-70% standup and 30-35% ground grappling. Accept it or not, dosen't matter in the least.

But no one system out there can "say", much less "prove" that they teach "what" I teach or the "method of teaching" that I use.


One last note: Before the first UFC I was exposed to but did not practice MMA. Way back in the '70's Mr. Tarow Hayashi was teaching full contact free form martial arts and was also holding competitions in this format. Mr. Hayashi was at that time my brother-in-laws instrucor. My Sensei's teacher. Mr. Hayashi pioneered free form combat and most kickboxers of that time did not fight nor practice in that way.

http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

I give credit to the UFC for making me think the way I do but when I saw the UFC I already new that Karate and Ju Jitsu could be practiced as one.:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Yiliquan.

My teacher teaches it one way.

Chufeng teaches it another way.

I teach it still another way.

We all teach the same material, but we all have our own preferences, our own body types, our own methods of presenting information...

So since I teach it differently than my teacher taught me, presenting the same information in different language, different demonstration, with my own emphasis on certain things, does it really make what I am doing a "new system?"

No.

The material remains the same. The standards of performance remain the same. That's what makes it a system in the first place.

How it is presented is a product of the personality of the teacher, and personality doesn't change the system, just the direction that that instructor's students may take.

Just a thought...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Yiliquan.

My teacher teaches it one way.

Chufeng teaches it another way.

I teach it still another way.

We all teach the same material, but we all have our own preferences, our own body types, our own methods of presenting information...

So since I teach it differently than my teacher taught me, presenting the same information in different language, different demonstration, with my own emphasis on certain things, does it really make what I am doing a "new system?"

No.

The material remains the same. The standards of performance remain the same. That's what makes it a system in the first place.

How it is presented is a product of the personality of the teacher, and personality doesn't change the system, just the direction that that instructor's students may take.

Just a thought...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


Thats my point the material is no longer the same.

[KennethKu]

To make such criteria as age and number of years of training as indication of qualification to create a new style, misses the boat completely.

To illustrate: You can say if someone is 25 years old and has taken x numbers of years of English Writing courses, then the person is qualified to write novel. Of course, the person can write a novel. This is a free country. But the issue is what kind of quality work he or she can produce.

Anyone, regardless of age and years of training, can create a new style. But the issue is what kind of martial art products he or she is putting together. I would venture a bet that it is either reinventing the wheel, repackaging something that already exist, mix and match bits and pieces from already existing arts or even totally unadulterated junk.

I agree with Aegis that, unless you have something new or volutionary, then you are just recycling the same old same old. And I would bet that the majority of the new styles we see these days, are repacking the same old stuff or remixing bits and pieces from existing arts, and slapping a fancing label on it. God Bless Free Market!

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by KennethKu
To make such criteria as age and number of years of training as indication of qualification to create a new style, misses the boat completely.

To illustrate: You can say if someone is 25 years old and has taken x numbers of years of English Writing courses, then the person is qualified to write novel. Of course, the person can write a novel. This is a free country. But the issue is what kind of quality work he or she can produce.

Anyone, regardless of age and years of training, can create a new style. But the issue is what kind of martial art products he or she is putting together. I would venture a bet that it is either reinventing the wheel, repackaging something that already exist, mix and match bits and pieces from already existing arts or even totally unadulterated junk.

I agree with Aegis that, unless you have something new or volutionary, then you are just recycling the same old same old. And I would bet that the majority of the new styles we see these days, are repacking the same old stuff or remixing bits and pieces from existing arts, and slapping a fancing label on it. God Bless Free Market!

That was a pretty good post.

You could "ALMOST" classify me as "repackaging" but not "reinventing."

Heres a partial quote off of my homepage of my beliefs which is a pretty good explanation of what I represent:

"THE KJJ METHOD OF TRAINING which Is a system of training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together, practicing and understanding all of the KJJ curriculum focusing on what is most useful and specializing on what works best for you."

I really do beleive that the only people out there that possibly "come close" to what I do is "MAYBE" Mr. Hayashis group in El Paso, Texas(but they are much more traditional).
http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

And the many mixed martial artists along with "SOME" JKD fighters out there.

For the most part, my method is all mine. I teach on an individualized private class format that allows me to groom each student to meet my expectations of what they shold be as an artist and in time they take over this "grooming process" and become the martial artiast that is in them.

One last thing. I think it is to negative to think that things can't be changed. I agree partially with what you see and beleive. But we must evolve and part of that evolution is change.:asian:

[KennethKu]

Yes, evolution is a messy business. Nothing is cut and dry nor pre-ordained. Out of 100 new styles, may be only a few that truly has merit and can withstand the test of time and challenge.

[A.R.K.]

This thread is shaping up into quite an interesting discussion. Bravo to all involved.

Chufeng,

A question for you. Earlier on page 2-3 you were discussing proof/evidence in terms of credibility for martial experience or LEO status. Or anything really. You had some good points that I would like to go further into.

John Smith has X degree Dan in Y style. Someone here asks for proof. How does he provide that?

Scan and post his certificate? No, any of us can go to Kinco's and have one made up for a few bucks. If it is authentic...is the signature? And if the signature is authentic...does anyone know him? There are millions of martial artists out there, who can know them all? And if the instructor isn't in the lime-light but just an old fashioned, keeps to himself, but highly qualified instructor...does that negate his signature? Does and instructor have to be 'known' to be credible? How many don't want or care for worldly recognition?

Tell you he belongs to Z organization? What does that really accomplish? There are a ton of them out there and quite a few will sell you the rank you want without investigation. The ones that do put you under the microscope...who's to say they do other than themselves or those closely associated with them? Without picking on the Kukkiwon, an merely an example, many would say they are the top of the food chain in terms of credability for many Korean arts. Others would come and say they know those who have bought rank therein. Who's right?

Does Mr. Smith HAVE to belong to organization Z instead of A,B or C? And why? If a membership fee or promotional fee is asked for...isn't that buying rank regardless of the organization? The charge or allegation could be made against it.

Perhaps an organization that doesn't charge but still puts you under the microscope?

How about someone vouching for Mr. Smith that knows his background, training and teaching ability? But couldn't someone simply say there just buddies covering for each other? How about a website? But then anyone can create a website saying anything. What about a verification phone number? But then how would we know who was really on the other end?

You are very correct and on the money with your apprasial regarding verification of LEO credentials. That would be a sure way. But in regards to the martial arts.....? An entity that is not governed by any universally recognized and independent organization that is not dollar motivated. We are back to the subjective and relative terms.

You mentioned that at some point trust needs to come into play. I believe you are correct. Trust in one another and let time tell the complete story. Only that or first hand personal knoweldge will truly suffice in a scenerio such as this.

What is rank? Simply put, it is someone [who presumably has trained longer than you with superior ability] who has recognized you as achieving a millstone in your training. Someone who is willing to even perhaps put their name on the line to publically state this is the case. Perhaps even an organization, any organization of reputable integrity that allows you to become a member or invites you into the fellowship.

But as illustrated above, anyone can come along an use terms such as dubious, unsubstantiated, alleged etc to shed an unfavorable light on anyone's credentials. Perhaps justifiably...perhaps not. To me the bottom line would be if Mr. Smith indeed has knowledge and skill and the ability to pass it on to others who in turn can use it so protect themselves. If Mr. Smith has real world experience to pass on, I consider that a tremendous plus.

My humble opinion.

:asian:

[KennethKu]

It isn't a question of whether Mr Smith has to belong to organization Z instead of A, B or C. It is where the RECOGNIZED authoritative organization is organization Z, while organizations A, B, C, all bastard organizations that no one recognizes nor gives a hoot about. Certificates from organizations A, B, C are toilet paper.

Let me use the Kukkiwon example. If I claimed to have a certificate from a Kukkiwon that located in South Africa, that would make the biggest butt of joke. There is only one legitimate Kukkiwon and it is NOT the bastard fake in South Africa.

In Mr Smith's case, if he was a fraud in Kukkiwon, then all you need to do is to ask around. Someone from Kukkiwon would KNOW. It would be very convenient for Mr. Smith to pass himself off as some high dan master in some freaking obscure art and hope that no one really knows the truth about it. That is why it eventually boils down to the good ol fashion of McDojo busting.

[chufeng]

Chufeng,

A question for you. Earlier on page 2-3 you were discussing proof/evidence in terms of credibility for martial experience or LEO status.

Wasn't me...my first post was regarding the difference between training in the old days in Japan and how people train today...

My second post was to DAC about beating a dead horse...

This is my third post in this thread...

:asian:
chufeng

[A.R.K.]

Ken,

I understand your point. But as I noted above, many would say the Kukkiwon is not the authority, or has lost it's authority an/or credibility due to many 'situations'. One could argue that is why several high rankers broke off and began world organizations of their own. We've all heard the stories of get on the plane as a blue belt and get off as a 6th Dan. We've heard stories of ethnic discrimination. I'm merely pointing out that to one Korean arts practitioner the Kukkiwon might be the world...to another a money grubbing warehouse.

I would like to say that since I'm not into any Korean arts in terms of rank, I have nothing for or against the Kukkiwon. They just happened to be the first one to come to mind for illustration purposes. If a TKD practitioner came to me with Kukkiwon backing great...if he didn't....great. I know far to many involved in the Korean arts/Kukkiwon and know the 'budo gone bad' stories. If the TKD practitioner/instructor has the ability then that is enough for me.

So to some organization Y is the one, the only, the best of the best...to others maybe not. It would seem this in and of itself has caused quite a division amoungst us as practitioners of the
'arts'.

My humble opinion.
:asian:

[A.R.K.]

Chufeng,

You are correct, my apologies. It was Yiliquan 1 on page 3 that caught my eye. All you Yili guys look the same:D Just kidding ;)

However, your comment[s] would be of interest as well if your so inclined.
:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Yes, evolution is a messy business. Nothing is cut and dry nor pre-ordained. Out of 100 new styles, may be only a few that truly has merit and can withstand the test of time and challenge.

Of those that withstand the test of time.

How many will withstand the challenge?:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
You could "ALMOST" classify me as "repackaging" but not "reinventing."

But does "repackaging" really amount to creating a new system? If I put a Big Mac in a paper box instead of a styrofoam one, is the burger really any different?


"THE KJJ METHOD OF TRAINING which Is a system of training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together, practicing and understanding all of the KJJ curriculum focusing on what is most useful and specializing on what works best for you."

So you really are are traditionalist! Everything you wrote in that description is true of living traditional martial arts (as opposed to the dead ones that have stagnated and failed to pass on anything other than mimicked movements). Nothing really new there...


For the most part, my method is all mine. I teach on an individualized private class format that allows me to groom each student to meet my expectations of what they shold be as an artist and in time they take over this "grooming process" and become the martial artiast that is in them.

So if you are "grooming" them according to your expectations, they really aren't any better off than they would be if they went to another school... They should be presented information, techniques, theories and strategies, all of which they should be required to learn, but portions of which they will choose to make "their own" through practice. In this way, "their own" techniques will be put into practice and they will develop their own abilities out of them. By making them conform to your perceptions of what is best is really forcing them to conform to your beliefs and abilities, not necessarily theirs.

When I learned Yiliquan from Sifu Starr, he really didn't emphasize one part over any other. He presented the entire package to us for us to digest and internalize. I prefer to hammer away at someone, punishing them before turning out the lights. That's my preference, and it goes along with my physical stature. One of our other instructors prefers throws and joint locks, nearly to the exclusion of other techniques. That fits his body type and mentality. But we all teach exactly the same material. We may have our own unique way of approaching the communication of it, but we leave nothing out. That way, the student can decide what their likes and dislikes are, and where their natural abilities lie...


One last thing. I think it is to negative to think that things can't be changed. I agree partially with what you see and beleive. But we must evolve and part of that evolution is change.:asian:

Just because we can change a thing doesn't necessarily mean we should. Just a thought...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by chufeng
DAC,

See the horse?

Run horse, run.

See the horse fall?

Get up horse, get up!

See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.

See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?

Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!

But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...

Who will grab the bad boy?

???

a fable told by chufeng...
;)


Originally posted by chufeng

Wasn't me...my first post was regarding the difference between training in the old days in Japan and how people train today...

My second post was to DAC about beating a dead horse...

This is my third post in this thread...


chufeng


Personal Post - Not as a Moderator

chufeng,

Thank you for bringing to everyones' attention that this is a dead horse and that you all are beating it. I just do not understand why every thread you guys get involved in has to break down into this type of discussion or arguement. If I was not required to read this as a moderator, I would ignore you all. I think you mioght be lossing the respect of others here, if you are trying my patience as well. I understand your point of tradition and valid testing, yet, I see no way to make you and others happy.

I apologize for if I upset you for my post, but I think you are all being childish. Just my point of view.

And just so that you know, I expect to get a warning, etc, for talking to you like this. I personally do not think it is respectable for this continued break down.

My Apologies
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

I thought everyone involved in the bickering had been doing a good job of putting it down and walking away... Other folks have been bringing it back up, and Chufeng and I have both commented to them to let it die... But you say we are the ones bringing it back up? :confused:

As for being childish, again, that is more on the part of the folks that keep trying to bring this thing back to life...

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I thought everyone involved in the bickering had been doing a good job of putting it down and walking away... Other folks have been bringing it back up, and Chufeng and I have both commented to them to let it die... But you say we are the ones bringing it back up? :confused:

As for being childish, again, that is more on the part of the folks that keep trying to bring this thing back to life...


Sir,

I address chufeng for he brought up the dead horse.

I was personally addressing everyone involved on both sides.

I apologize for not making that clear.

I am not taking sides. I am just stating my opinion, as it seems everyone else is doing.

If it is Dead, then Great ignore me and my post(s). Just to me it is a boring subject, that has been discussed, and it seems that it keeps going and going and going, and neither side will let it go with out getting in the last word or the last shot.

Personally, I think you are all acting very poorly. Step back and just breath and then take a second look everyone.


So, No I am not ganging up on you. I am not using my Authority, I am giving an opinion. If you feel like that then I am sorry, I did not mean to come across that way, yet if you do feel guilty, then maybe you and everyone should take that step back like I said.

If you wish, report this thread and list this as an issue if you feel like I am coming down hard on you and your friends and or your opponents.

Have a nice day

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Aegis
From an easily accessible source on Judo (Judo Information Site (http://judoinfo.com/jhist.htm)):



(emphasis mine)

Doesn't sound like he started at 17 now, does it?

See, at the age of 18 he changed masters, which is probably what has people like you confused. If you are concerned about how quickly he got his "inner secret" training within this art, then remember that he had been training for some years in a different style of jujutsu before coming to this master, so wouldn't have had to go as slowly as normal novices.

Remember that what defined Judo wasn't a set of new moves, or an unbeatable new style, it was instead a principle (maximising efficiency). If I recall correctly, this basically meant mastering a few of the old techniques first, then expanding on them, rather than Jujutsu, where you would learn bits of everything and gradually get good at all of them.

Essentially there wasn't much difference initially between Judo and some styles of jujutsu. What changed was the ability to practise Judo at full pace on someone else under controlled circumstances (randori). After a while, the more dangerous elements were reduced to kata form only, and eventually forgotten completely.

Not that I can say for sure, but I believe that a lot of styles of Jujutsu today would almost be Judo in its original form, as they follow the same principals and training methods as judo did at its creation.

His other contribution was the introduction of a set of ethics, which still live on in a lot of martial artists, but have been lost on others: good character, honest conduct, etc.

So, what am I saying? I'm saying that Kano did NOT try to create something new, nor did he do what he did for glory's sake. He revolutionised teaching methods by coming up with safe ways of training while not losing the deadliness of technique. I doubt many people since then can claim to have had such a huge influence on martial arts.


My general advice on creating a new system is this: if you have nothing new to offer, don't start a new system. Until you have attained a level of mastery in one or more arts, you are not likely to have anything new to offer.
Very informative posts.

And you bring up a good point... It's not like Kano formulated a brand-new revolutionary art, but rather took jujitsu into a different light.

[chufeng]

Rich,

Thank you so much for stirring the pot, once again...
With moderators like you, things should calm down in a hurry:rolleyes:

My post was directed to ONE individual who, like you, wanted to stir the pot...

So, Rich, if you can't follow the thread and its intent, I'll give you the bottom line:

I am through commenting about A.R.K.'s (his new name) credentials...the frickin' horse is dead...Now drop YOUR stick...if you weren't beating the horse, you might actually see what's going on here.

:asian:
chufeng

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Ken,

I understand your point. But as I noted above, many would say the Kukkiwon is not the authority, or has lost it's authority an/or credibility due to many 'situations'. One could argue that is why several high rankers broke off and began world organizations of their own. We've all heard the stories of get on the plane as a blue belt and get off as a 6th Dan. We've heard stories of ethnic discrimination. I'm merely pointing out that to one Korean arts practitioner the Kukkiwon might be the world...to another a money grubbing warehouse.

I would like to say that since I'm not into any Korean arts in terms of rank, I have nothing for or against the Kukkiwon. They just happened to be the first one to come to mind for illustration purposes. If a TKD practitioner came to me with Kukkiwon backing great...if he didn't....great. I know far to many involved in the Korean arts/Kukkiwon and know the 'budo gone bad' stories. If the TKD practitioner/instructor has the ability then that is enough for me.

So to some organization Y is the one, the only, the best of the best...to others maybe not. It would seem this in and of itself has caused quite a division amoungst us as practitioners of the
'arts'.

My humble opinion.
:asian:
Too bad, the authority is authority. You might have opinions on authority, but that's about it, it doesn't change the fact that they are still in charge. The founders and lineage, the history, etc. all backs them up. It's like Colts. They are the authority in the 1911 market. It doesn't matter on how much market share they have, or whether this brand of 1911 is better. Colts withstood the test of time, being one of the oldest firearm companies in the US, their pistols and rifles have gone through every major war in the 20th and 21st century the US has been involved in, etc. They were the original, and the rest are clones and imitations, no matter how good they become.

I have an il-dan certificate from Kukkiwon, but my drill instructors in the past barely went through the forms like some McDojangs today stress. They had their own little system within the system, but the final authority was still Kukkiwon. Most original organizations do give some leniency on how you teach, etc., but if I were to have a black belt that was not from Kukkiwon, and not in their database, then it would be nothing. One of my old instructor's father was on the council. I'm not certain on its politics, but he was on the original council that is credited for making TKD so popular (which is both a good and a very bad thing).

For LEO organizations, you can belong into A, B, and C. But if it isn't the authorized A, then you are merely running either a private investigation organization or are just being vigilantes.

[MartialArtist]

Dead horse? Am I missing something? Is this the incident with ZDW aka MRJ aka ARK? I really haven't been participating in those threads so I'm not sure. :confused:

[Matt Stone]

Yep.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by chufeng
Rich,

Thank you so much for stirring the pot, once again...
With moderators like you, things should calm down in a hurry:rolleyes:

My post was directed to ONE individual who, like you, wanted to stir the pot...

So, Rich, if you can't follow the thread and its intent, I'll give you the bottom line:

I am through commenting about A.R.K.'s (his new name) credentials...the frickin' horse is dead...Now drop YOUR stick...if you weren't beating the horse, you might actually see what's going on here.

:asian:
chufeng


Thank you Sir! for making this crystal clear to me.

I appriciate you taking the time to educate me on this.

The Frickin Horse is dead, got it!

My Stick is dropped. I guess we will have to take each others' word that we will not mention this again. For if either of us ever do then, I guess we will know the true worth of that person's word.

Thank you again, Sir for the wonderful education.
:asian:



PS: The first post clear said not a moderator post, my Opinion. I apologize for not making the crystal clear. So, it is not with Moderators like me, but with posters like me. Have a Nice Day, I know I did by riding my bike :)

[A.R.K.]

Martialartist,

I understand your point but would like to point out that to some the authority is not the authority. In otherwords, the Kukkiwon is not the be all to end all for TKD practitioners, at least the majority that I know personally. They seem to have gone through some type of a break up where some top brass have gone on to form their own. Good or bad, right or wrong..it simply has been done. If the practitioner/instructor's technique/teaching is sound does it matter which of those TKD organizations 'back' them? To some yes and to some no. But isn't the bottom line the ability of a person?

My humble thoughts.
:asian:

[A.R.K.]

In regards to this thread, in my opinion it has gone quite well. No one is taking shots at anyone on certain topics. It would seem general opinions and thoughts are being offered in a friendly matter without trying to step on toes deliberately. At least that is my take.

Is that not the way it should be? We don't have to all agree...everytime...on every topic but if we respect each others right to respectfully have that opinion and express it....heck we might just learn some new stuff :eek: :D

In regards to Dr. Kano the information I've read was he began at age 17 and at age 22 formed Judo. There of course may well be more to it than that. My point is that even a 22 year old with x amount of training can provide marvelous contributions. Judo has stood the test of time and is enjoyed worldwide. It would have been a shame had he been discouraged by someone who said 'A 22 year old doesn't know enough to do anything of this nature'.

Just a thought.
:asian:

[chufeng]

Thank you Sir! for making this crystal clear to me
You're welcome.


The first post clear said not a moderator post, my Opinion

oops...my bad...but I've seen this behavior before on this board...that person could not/would not stay out of the fray...he is no longer a moderator...

I think that you are entitled to voice an opinion when it's on topic; but when it comes to thread order and discipline, no one here is going to differentiate your "opinion" from a moderator's reprimand...your position requires that you think three times before posting...

Have a good day...

:asian:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Is that not the way it should be? We don't have to all agree...everytime...on every topic but if we respect each others right to respectfully have that opinion and express it....heck we might just learn some new stuff :eek: :D

No, you must agree with me because I am always right... most of the time... occasionally... once in a while... sometimes... usually not at all... nearly never...


In regards to Dr. Kano the information I've read was he began at age 17 and at age 22 formed Judo. There of course may well be more to it than that. My point is that even a 22 year old with x amount of training can provide marvelous contributions. Judo has stood the test of time and is enjoyed worldwide. It would have been a shame had he been discouraged by someone who said 'A 22 year old doesn't know enough to do anything of this nature'.

I still maintain that it would be easier to pare down an art into a competitive form than it would be to build one from the ground up. For the run of the mill 22 year old, that just isn't within the confines of the possibilities of normal life experiences. It would be the truly unique personality that would allow for enough life experience, training time, skill development and martial genius to allow someone to do so...

Kano and others like him are the exception, not the rule. I'm not saying that it is impossible, only highly improbable.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Marginal]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Martialartist,

I understand your point but would like to point out that to some the authority is not the authority. In otherwords, the Kukkiwon is not the be all to end all for TKD practitioners, at least the majority that I know personally. They seem to have gone through some type of a break up where some top brass have gone on to form their own. Good or bad, right or wrong..it simply has been done. If the practitioner/instructor's technique/teaching is sound does it matter which of those TKD organizations 'back' them? To some yes and to some no. But isn't the bottom line the ability of a person?

My humble thoughts.
:asian:

There's a flaw in this reasoning though. So they break off... Their instructors who approved their rank prior to the schism remain exactly the same however, and whatever lineage those had is still documented so that someone can call up the instructor/home office and ask what rank they were awarded prior to them leaving the orginization at the very least. The instructor wouldn't even have to be widely known as long as he was in the books somewhere.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
But does "repackaging" really amount to creating a new system? If I put a Big Mac in a paper box instead of a styrofoam one, is the burger really any different?



So you really are are traditionalist! Everything you wrote in that description is true of living traditional martial arts (as opposed to the dead ones that have stagnated and failed to pass on anything other than mimicked movements). Nothing really new there...



So if you are "grooming" them according to your expectations, they really aren't any better off than they would be if they went to another school... They should be presented information, techniques, theories and strategies, all of which they should be required to learn, but portions of which they will choose to make "their own" through practice. In this way, "their own" techniques will be put into practice and they will develop their own abilities out of them. By making them conform to your perceptions of what is best is really forcing them to conform to your beliefs and abilities, not necessarily theirs.

When I learned Yiliquan from Sifu Starr, he really didn't emphasize one part over any other. He presented the entire package to us for us to digest and internalize. I prefer to hammer away at someone, punishing them before turning out the lights. That's my preference, and it goes along with my physical stature. One of our other instructors prefers throws and joint locks, nearly to the exclusion of other techniques. That fits his body type and mentality. But we all teach exactly the same material. We may have our own unique way of approaching the communication of it, but we leave nothing out. That way, the student can decide what their likes and dislikes are, and where their natural abilities lie...



Just because we can change a thing doesn't necessarily mean we should. Just a thought...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

When I say almost repackaging. I'm achknowledging the fact that somewhere in time somebody has done it all before.

I try to "present the whole package" you might say. What is differant is the "amount" ground grappling I emphasize. Not to mention the standup comes from Jun Fan. Everybody is saying "we grapple." but from what I've observed, they don't put much time in it.

I'm a natural standup fighter, so for me to talk "emphasizing" ground grappling, then there must be something there.

I don't teach someone to think of the ground as a first choice but I do teach them what to do when they are there and if someone is better at standup than them, then yes use the ground.

Last time I checked the only people who take ground grappling serious are grapplers. The majority of the the standup arts are weak in their ground game. I know what I'm talking about. I've rolled with all types, and the standup fighters show up for "pure matwork" because they don't get that in their schools.

But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out.:D

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
When I say almost repackaging. I'm achknowledging the fact that somewhere in time somebody has done it all before.

I try to "present the whole package" you might say. What is differant is the "amount" ground grappling I emphasize. Not to mention the standup comes from Jun Fan. Everybody is saying "we grapple." but from what I've observed, they don't put much time in it.

I'm a natural standup fighter, so for me to talk "emphasizing" ground grappling, then there must be something there.

I don't teach someone to think of the ground as a first choice but I do teach them what to do when they are there and if someone is better at standup than them, then yes use the ground.

Last time I checked the only people who take ground grappling serious are grapplers. The majority of the the standup arts are weak in their ground game. I know what I'm talking about. I've rolled with all types, and the standup fighters show up for "pure matwork" because they don't get that in their schools.

But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out.:D
I agree

For example, BJJ came from judo. The biggest difference that I can think of is that BJJ focuses more on submission moves. Basically the same concepts, just different emphasis. I wouldn't say BJJ was a new style really, just took what was already existing and narrowed the perspective a bit, just like what judo did to jujitsu.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by chufeng
You're welcome.



oops...my bad...but I've seen this behavior before on this board...that person could not/would not stay out of the fray...he is no longer a moderator...


I apologize if I came across wrong, yet it is wrong to assume that I will act just like others. Sir, if that last is a threat, remember I have missed read your intents before, I take exception to this. If you have a problem with me as a member or moderator then report me, do not make idle threats. I do apologize if that is not what you meant, yet others have made similar comments on this board. Since, you seem to think I am like others, I am forced to think you might be others as well, playing by your rules.

Like I Said my opinion to this, was that the dead horse comment was also stirring the pot with a big stick. Oh Well my bad.


Originally posted by chufeng

I think that you are entitled to voice an opinion when it's on topic; but when it comes to thread order and discipline, no one here is going to differentiate your "opinion" from a moderator's reprimand...your position requires that you think three times before posting...

Have a good day...

:asian:
chufeng

Hmmm On topic. Yes. I agree, so that I do not make the mistake again, please explain how the little ditty about the horse was on topic? I know I have missed the topic, as you have clearly pointed out to me. So, I am very confused, and would like to be educated on this issue.


As to posting, I should think three times. Hmmmm, maybe if all of the members also followed this nice advice and in my opinion yourself, then maybe just maybe there would be less confusion and less disagreements.



Oh Yeah, I think in general this thread has gone well, I just took person exception to the dead horse being beaten by a stick. So, like I said I missed the point of this thread. Just learning.

:asian:

[chufeng]

Rich,

Since you are a moderator, I think you can verify that I've never turned anyone in for any comment in any thread, ever...I don't play that game.


Sir, if that last is a threat, remember I have missed read your intents before, I take exception to this.

Really, HOW can I threaten you? I don't appoint moderators...I don't get people fired...
It was simply an observation...

The dead horse thread was to EMPHASIZE to DAC that the four people involved in that "discussion" had put the issue to rest...if you go back a ways you'll see where he tried to stir it up...I was trying to put an end to it once and for all.

As far as "playing by my rules" I don't know what you are trying to insinuate...I am a guest on this board and rules established by the moderators are the rules I play by...

Have a good day
:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Why is Chufeng the one being questioned about this when DAC is the one that tried to put some gas on a fire that was already out?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Like I Said my opinion to this, was that the dead horse comment was also stirring the pot with a big stick. Oh Well my bad.



I think you need to re-read the thread from the beginning. Chufeng was trying to squelch something before it got started back up.

What was the topic of this thread anyway?????

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
What was the topic of this thread anyway?????

Heck, I am confused. I think it had something to do with the fact that some people are quite willing to claim something in a public forum, where it can be read by millions of people, and when they are asked for some sort of proof they get evasive.

Of course, it just seems to be common sense that if you do so, then you have to expect most people to talk about you like you are a lying, incompetent fraud. If you claim you studied under a certain master, you need to prove it. If you don't want to reveal something while proving it, you should not be talking about it in the open in the first place. The same goes for street fighting experiences, military service, ranks or anything else that may be asked to be proven. There are points in my life I don't like to talk about. I do not even mention them in passing. I will never have to prove something based on something I do not want out in the open.

In my opinion, anyone who makes a claim about their personal training and then refuses to back that claim up is a fraud. Everything they or their students say from that point on is suspect. I can not even count how many times I have run across groups that claim to have 1000 year old Japanese lineages only to check and see that no one in Japan has ever heard of them and the guy who "revealed" the art to the public is completely ignorant of anything Japanese. But 99 times out of 100 they come back and say, "lineages/rank aren't important- fighting is and we can fight!" Oh? If lineages aren't important, why did you mention them in the first place? And why should we trust your word that you guys can fight?

And I am talking about personal experience. Some people bring up the fact that some arts can't be traced back 500 years like they claim to cover the fact that they can't prove that they had the training they boast about. I accept that problems happen with history over time, but everyone should be able to prove the claims they themselves make about what they did and achieved.

I just got through with a thread on another forum. The head of the style wrote a response talking about how no one was interested in getting to the truth, only attacking them. And he mentioned how no one had said anything to his face. I shot back a response saying that I did ask for some sort of proof that the guy's teacher was in Japan and offered to go visit them when they showed up in Japan this summer as they claim. So far- silence. It is rather amazing that the grand poo bah of an art seems scared of a little guy like me. :D

As for Kano and Lee, both of them did not really come up with a style, rather a way of looking at martial arts and training. If you look at the Koshiki no kata of the Kdokan, you will find the curriculum of the Kito ryu. Kano just wanted a new way of training that relflected the Western ways of education he had been exposed to. JKD students take things from complete arts like Kali, boxing and Wing Chun and make their own way. In neither case did the two really come up with techniques and say, "this is the way!" Both just rebbelled against the "classical mess" they saw and developed a new philosophy.

But for someone in the modern age to start an art at age 22 is somewhat silly- but common. Toi start your own style is to become head of it. To be head of a style means you are a master in the eyes of others. And the image that people build up in the eyes of others tends to be something they will defend to the death rather than admit they do not know everything. 22, that is a time to make many, many mistakes and learn from them. Too many "masters" just can not afford to make mistakes in the eyes of their students. Many do not push themselves enough. Some will even try to explain away their failures as some sort of brilliance.

But true growth comes from setting goals outside your reach, falling flat on your face and then after you dust yourself off, asking, "why did I fail and how can I avoid doing so the next time?"

I will give you an example. There was a guy who started his own "modern ninjutsu" style in 1979. I have a book written by him from 1999- two decades later. Despite 20 years as a master, he is still making mistakes that were very, very basic and would get him corrected in any dojo I associate with.

I am sure you have heard of Miyamoto Musashi. Have you ever heard of a contemporary of his called Yagyu Munenori? He was also a great swordsman who sent many swordsmen to defeat in his age. Both Musashi and Munenori had reputations as very efficient killers in an age known for its violence by the time they were 30 or so. Yet both of them wrote comments to the effect that they did not really understand martial arts until they were about 50. So you see how I look at 22 year olds that talk about starting their own style?

Here is a more recent example. Have you heard of "Jim Grover"? If you are interested in teaching self defense I would reccomend his stuff. In his book on street smarts he says this, (pg 171)




Second, it has been my experience that once one has named a technique after himself- even if the instructor is faced with irrefutable proof that there is a better, safer more effecient technique- he'll defend his to the end. After all, in his eyes he'll be remembered as having claimed to develop the best technique when, in fact, it wasn't. This is all good fun until you realize that teaching a substandard method may cost a person his life. If I learn something better today and can validate it, I'll be teaching it tommorow.

22 year old masters? Claims that can be made in public but can never be backed up- even as somethign as simple as who taught you? These are things that should set off alarms in people's heads. But of course, there are always people who need to be seen as macho in the eyes of others and people who will follow them. I think everyone should read the article "Tenth Dan in Bul Shi Tsu" written by Sharp Phil at PhilElmore.com. I can not seem to link directly to it.

[A.R.K.]

:shrug: Opinions vary....

At length I discussed 'proving' something in regards to the martial arts. Would you care to venture your opinion as to how someone could offer proof via the internet?

And should they offer it to those that demand or to those that respectfully request?

:asian:

[chufeng]

Many good points, Don.

Our school has had several "renegades" who opened schools with our founder's good wishes, but who then went on to "do their own thing." They were given permission to teach but were also to do so within the guidelines of the Association...they didn't.

One was charging a lot of money (up to $100/mo) for lessons and had strayed from the "standards" set down by sifu (who teaches for very little)...when they were told to get in line they said they had "grown beyond sifu's understanding." What a load of crap... My teacher is now 56 years old; he started training at the age of 7... He's trained many "black sash" level students but that does not qualify them for teaching our system...those who want to teach, must complete an instructor's course...After that they may open a school, with permission (and supervision, if they are below third level black sash)...yet, we've had first level students open schools and declare that sifu didn't know what he was talking about...BUT, they were more than willing to use the YiLi logo and name to promote the stuff they developed...they have since changed the name of what they do (after a visit, or threatened visit, by my senior, Mr. Burgess)...

Funnier still, I've met black belts from MANY different styles...I've trained with them...and they ask me to teach them...I hold to the standards of my teacher...how is it that senior folk in other styles desire to learn YiLi as it was intended to be taught? and at the same time, those who have broken away are finding it difficult? Because the system works...those who let their ego get in the way of real learning and then make claims to some grandiose rank and knowledge really do piss me off...and that is why I am so suspicious of claims of sokeship...and dan ranks beyond 7th.

But even in the little town of Puyallup, Washington, there are no less than three grandmasters advertising in the yellow pages...go figure...

:asian:
chufeng

[Matt Stone]

I was always amazed at how many martial arts masters and grandmasters that had settled in all the small towns I have lived in... It must be the sense of community and overall safety that these most deadly of people seek out as a haven from the violence that surely follows them every waking moment...

Or not.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[chufeng]

A.R.K.,


Would you care to venture your opinion as to how someone could offer proof via the internet?

There is no way to verify beyond checking the records of the organizations or teachers who they claim to have trained under.

Scanned documents won't fly because they can be faked...
Phone calls won't work (if numbers are provided by the fake) because they may simply instruct their friend(s) to cover for them.

So, it is very difficult to verify claims made on the internet...
Your student, DAC, has actually done more for your credibility (even though he needs to learn when enough is enough) than anything you've provided...

At any rate, I accept you as a fellow instructor...you have YOUR art, which you've designed and founded...I do not view it as a traditional system, however...and I think you said as much, recently, in a post about reorganizing the rank structure, etc...

Peace
:asian:
chufeng

[A.R.K.]

Chufeng :asian:

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
And should they offer it to those that demand or to those that respectfully request?

Once a person has made a claim, it is their responsibility to then prove it no matter what they think of the attitude of the person demanding the proof.

Otherwise, we get cases where people make claims and then never seem to find anyone whose attitude they find worthy of showing proof to. Many seem to take the stance that just by asking about their claims you are insulting them. Others find an excuse with the art of the person asking for proof. I have seen all these dodges before.

Wayne Muromoto talked about this when he wrote the article Are You in a Martial Arts Cult? (http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/zanshin8.html) Among other signs of a martial arts cult he cited this behavior,


--As soon as you ask questions about the teacher's origins and instructors, you get a "I don't have to tell you because you're an idiot" behavior. Sure, there's obnoxious snooping, but there's also reasonable and expected questioning that must arise if you visit a dojo. One correspondent sent me a copy of a letter he received after he inquired about a great master's credentials. "I don't have to tell you, and besides, everyone knows I'm a master, so if you keep snooping, I will not talk to you," was the "master's" basic reply.


And there are ways of checking many types of claims. If someone claims to be teaching a Japanese art, they should be found in a Japanese source. If someone claims to have gotten a rank from someone, then givng their name in public is a good start. There are ways of finding people on your own by means of phone books. And posting their certificates on the internet where people who read Japanese can see it is a good move. If nothing else, it gives those of us who can read Japanese a good laugh. I was sent one that was issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association". I saw another that said it was the "Whore House Association." A typical person running into this in a McDojo would not know they were so funny, but posting it on the internet lets many people of different abilities see it and somebody should be able to tell if it is fake.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by chufeng
Many good points, Don.

Our school has had several "renegades" who opened schools with our founder's good wishes, but who then went on to "do their own thing." They were given permission to teach but were also to do so within the guidelines of the Association...they didn't.

One was charging a lot of money (up to $100/mo) for lessons and had strayed from the "standards" set down by sifu (who teaches for very little)...when they were told to get in line they said they had "grown beyond sifu's understanding." What a load of crap... My teacher is now 56 years old; he started training at the age of 7... He's trained many "black sash" level students but that does not qualify them for teaching our system...those who want to teach, must complete an instructor's course...After that they may open a school, with permission (and supervision, if they are below third level black sash)...yet, we've had first level students open schools and declare that sifu didn't know what he was talking about...BUT, they were more than willing to use the YiLi logo and name to promote the stuff they developed...they have since changed the name of what they do (after a visit, or threatened visit, by my senior, Mr. Burgess)...

Funnier still, I've met black belts from MANY different styles...I've trained with them...and they ask me to teach them...I hold to the standards of my teacher...how is it that senior folk in other styles desire to learn YiLi as it was intended to be taught? and at the same time, those who have broken away are finding it difficult? Because the system works...those who let their ego get in the way of real learning and then make claims to some grandiose rank and knowledge really do piss me off...and that is why I am so suspicious of claims of sokeship...and dan ranks beyond 7th.

But even in the little town of Puyallup, Washington, there are no less than three grandmasters advertising in the yellow pages...go figure...

:asian:
chufeng
Puyallup??!!!! I have a grandson living in the Puget Sound area as well! I'd talk to him about visiting your school. Currently though, he's into MA, for self-defense and character building reasons, but he'd much rather play football and do track instead.

[A.R.K.]

Once a person has made a claim, it is their responsibility to then prove it no matter what they think of the attitude of the person demanding the proof.

Curious that you would feel this way....


If someone claims to be teaching a Japanese art, they should be found in a Japanese source.

People in countries around the world train in styles from other parts of the world. These systems have migrated extensively. An American studying a Ryu in the Middle East from an Arabic teacher should have ties to Asian sources? With respect I disagree. Sources often mean money has to be spent for approval/recognition which does nothing towards the actual ability of the practitioner. And there are probably organizations available in the country trained in, if one wishes to associate them. One does not need membership however in any organization to 'better' their training.


If someone claims to have gotten a rank from someone, then givng their name in public is a good start.

Assuming the individual allows it. Many instructors are private individuals that aren't looking for internet attention. And unless you know every teacher in the world...what does a name really do towards credibility? Someone with an agenda could merely say 'never heard of em'.


And posting their certificates on the internet where people who read Japanese can see it is a good move.

Any foriegn language can be copied and produced at Kinco's and posted. Stamps and seals can be bought in the back of magazines. Just because it's readable doesn't make it credible.

As I've already said, there is really no evidence that can be offered that can't be negatively spoken against even if authentic and reputable.

Unless you personally know....you don't know.

:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Unless you personally know....you don't know.

Good point. It brings up one of the most important features of boards just like this one - communication.

If Chufeng wants to know what RyuShiKan is like, he can ask me. I have trained with him. I personally know.

Chufeng has trained with (I think) Taika Oyata. Taika Oyata was RyuShiKan's teacher. If I (or others outside Ryu Te) want to know what Taika is like, they can ask Chufeng or better yet RyuShiKan. They personally know.

Therefore, we have credible evidence to substantiate RyuShiKan's skills - both by knowing his teacher, and having experienced his skills first hand.

Lacking the ability to travel to Japan to train with him, folks that know me will have to take my word on it.

And so it goes.

Person A knows Persons B, C, and D personally. They train together, have coffee together, etc. Person B knows Persons E, F and G. By extension, then, if Person B says that Person A is well skilled, but Person C couldn't find their butt with both hands and a map, and Persons E, F and G have reason to believe that Person B knows what he/she is talking about, then they have credible evidence pointing to the fact that Person A kicks butt, and Person C can't find his...

Eventually, via boards like this, the MA community in the real world begins to shrink. The arnis folks here meet via camps during the year, and many of them know each other personally. They can all vouch for each other. Arnisador knows nbcdecon, my Modern Arnis teacher. Through nbcdecon, I have learned a little about Arnisador. Therefore, lacking the ability to meet Arnisador in person, and having respect for nbcdecon's skills and insights, I feel I know about Arnisador from a credible source.

So posting information on the internet is a very good source for both reinforcing the reputations of good schools, and exposing bad schools for the frauds they are. People all over this board have spoken out about and against Chung Moo Doe, Temple Kung Fu and other questionable arts, and have been able to get first hand testimonials both for and against those arts. They make use of the reputations people have on this board to function as their "personal knowledge" of the person posting their opinions. And like I said before several times, at some point you have to trust somebody...

I can sympathize with someone wanting to remain out of the spotlight. Fine. But for their students who choose to enter the public arena, at some point their names are going to have to come up. Sure, not everyone knows everyone, but the "reasonable person standard" can apply here... Not every "reasonable person" has an axe to grind, so most "reasonable people" will recognize their innate inability to know everyone or everything... That's my job! :D

As for the bogus Asian language certificates... I get a real kick out of them! I can read a little (not much, really), and have seen a few schools whose banners were a real hoot - not even close for what they claimed to be representing!

Musashi said that this kind of misrepresentation was going on in his time... Somehow I don't think it is really going to get any better. But that doesn't stop me from "perservering..."

Gambarimasu. (which means "to perservere" for the folks that didn't get my little joke... :D )

:asian:

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
Thats my point the material is no longer the same.

Did I reply to this before? I don't remember...

No, the material is the same... Its presentation may be different, but the core elements, the doctrine, the theory, the movement, etc., are all identical.

I teach punching and kicking as nothing more than controlled, directed natural movements. This helps, in my opinion, the non-MAist to grasp the idea a little better. When you throw in our body mechanics, they see immediately that the body mechanics make the technique just come out... All they have to do, then, is aim it.

That is not how I was taught, nor is it how other Yili instructors teach. But their students and my students all execute the same punches and kicks...

Same material, different wrapper.

So just because I change the presentation of my sushi, doesn't make the fish a different fish nor the rice different rice... It may look a little different from the last plate, but it is still rice and fish...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Arnisador knows nbcdecon, my Modern Arnis teacher. Through nbcdecon, I have learned a little about Arnisador. Therefore, lacking the ability to meet Arnisador in person, and having respect for nbcdecon's skills and insights, I feel I know about Arnisador from a credible source.


Of course, this is unfair--like most of my friends in the service, he's a very nice guy who'd say polite and upbeat things about anyone. To the extent that he's spoken well of me I'm sure he's exaggerated and to the extent that he's spoken critically of me I'm sure he's cut it in half.

When I job hunt--frequently in my profession, where one often must change employers to advance (which then has negative effects on my training of course)--two of my references are retired brigadier generals, and I feel it's unfair to prospective employers because they are such nice, positive, upbeat people that they'd make anyone look good!

It's been years since I've seen nbcdecon but Mr. Hartman keeps me informed of his doings in Japan. The last time we were together I was helping him stretch during warm-up--he had his leg just about directly over his head while standing on the other one.

Ah, it's a small world--we have one degree of separation, you and I!

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by arnisador
Of course, this is unfair--like most of my friends in the service, he's a very nice guy who'd say polite and upbeat things about anyone. To the extent that he's spoken well of me I'm sure he's exaggerated and to the extent that he's spoken critically of me I'm sure he's cut it in half.

Nah... He said you were a %$#**^%$ sorry ^%$#^%$# ladyboy %$#@&^%$&$#&^ without a *&^^%$)_! :D Other than that, he seemed to think you were pretty okay... :lol:


It's been years since I've seen nbcdecon but Mr. Hartman keeps me informed of his doings in Japan. The last time we were together I was helping him stretch during warm-up--he had his leg just about directly over his head while standing on the other one.

I haven't seen nor trained with him in over 7 months. I miss the psycho quite a bit. His life is pretty hectic right now, but last I heard he was giving some consideration to trying his hand in the ring... Not sure whether that coalesced or not. What I do remember was his stick thundering toward my hands... And never landing. His control was so good that he could lay that stick on you at full speed and only touch skin - no sting, no pain, just contact and control. That more than anything else was what made me want to study with him... He actually approached me and a Yili student I had there because he saw us walking the circle and he had an interest in Baguazhang... Really glad I met him. I still count him as one of the best friends I have.


Ah, it's a small world--we have one degree of separation, you and I!

And that is sort of my point from upthread... I know him, you know him. We both know of his skill and can testify that he's good. So you can tell people and I can tell people, and if they trust us, they trust our judgement, and therefore will accept our opinion that he is good. Done deal.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[chufeng]

He's more than welcome, anytime...

:asian:
chufeng

[chufeng]

I forgot the reason I posted this...


Puyallup??!!!! I have a grandson living in the Puget Sound area as well!

chufeng

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
People in countries around the world train in styles from other parts of the world. These systems have migrated extensively. An American studying a Ryu in the Middle East from an Arabic teacher should have ties to Asian sources? With respect I disagree.

A Japanese art that has never been heard of in Japan, only the Middle East? Silly. And if you are talking about someone who studied Judo or something from someone in the Middle East, then this person should be able to show proof of his teacher. If he claims a Kodokan black belt, then the Kodokan in Tokyo should be able to back up their claim.



Originally posted by A.R.K.
Sources often mean money has to be spent for approval/recognition which does nothing towards the actual ability of the practitioner.

Sometimes, but not always. Not even in the vast majority of cases. If someone wanted to say they trained in a Japanese martial art, but there was not even a single Japanese source for it like the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, that is a pretty clear sign that someone is lying.


Originally posted by A.R.K.
One does not need membership however in any organization to 'better' their training.

True, which is why some people never talk about the orginizations they have been in, but rather let their ability speak for themselves. Those that claim to have been part of an orginization- or gotten rank from them, do not do this and thus the onus is on them to back up their claims.




Originally posted by A.R.K.
Many instructors are private individuals that aren't looking for internet attention.

If this is the case, then the person who is on the internet and made the claims should respect their teachers wishes by never putting them in the position in the first place. If someone claims to have gotten to have gotten a eighth dan, then the question of from whom will come up sooner or later. If they do not want their teacher to be bothered, they should not make the claim of recieving rank in the first place. I knew one guy who claimed that all he was teaching us was stuff he picked up from old magazines. With the skill he showed, he did not have to try to impress us with who he trained with or what rank he got.

People that claim to have studied X number of years or under A sensei or gotten Y rank do not try to impress people with their ability. And the onus for the proof is on them.


Originally posted by A.R.K.
And unless you know every teacher in the world...what does a name really do towards credibility? Someone with an agenda could merely say 'never heard of em'.

Not everyone has an agenda. And if they did and said they never heard of them, then when someone else proved that the person existed and verified the claimnent's story, then the person with the agenda would look silly in the eyes of the entire internet. And with the information superhighway, a persons identity can usually be found and people who know him and are nuetral can be contacted to verify stories.


Originally posted by A.R.K.
Any foriegn language can be copied and produced at Kinco's and posted. Stamps and seals can be bought in the back of magazines. Just because it's readable doesn't make it credible.

The certificate I talked about from the Heavenly Dog Association seemed to be just this. It was funny because the guy did not know what to cut out, and what to leave in. Japanese is a difficult language and the chances that someone could peice one together without some ability is roughly the same as putting a monkey in a room with a typewriter and having it duplicate
Shakespeare.


Originally posted by A.R.K.
As I've already said, there is really no evidence that can be offered that can't be negatively spoken against even if authentic and reputable.

Someone can always take such an attitude. You can quote specific books and page numbers but there may well be people who claim the books do not exist. But you do give onlookers the chance to find the source and see for themselves. And to use the chance that someone will deny proof as an excuse to turn down anyone from getting the chance to look up a claim for themself is a pretty good indicator of a complete fraud and incompetent.

And again, if ability is all that is important, then talk of time spent training or ranks given is silly- so why are they making the claims in the first place? Once they make the claim, it is their responsibilty to back it up.

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by akja


But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out.:D

My friend, you need to take a trip "Down Under"!
The version of Ryukyu Kempo that I am learning, incorporates all ranges of combat.
I think you would be quite surprised as to how in-depth we go.

--Dave

:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Don,

Excellent posts!
You have said many of the many of the things I wanted to convey.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Any foriegn language can be copied and produced at Kinco's and posted. Stamps and seals can be bought in the back of magazines. Just because it's readable doesn't make it credible.


Well actually you can’t just go to Kinko’s and get them made.
Menkyo/Menjo are not usually copied but hand written……..even in this day in age.

Why???????
So scumbags don’t go to Kinko’s and get copies made.

Stamps and seal must match other certificate’s stamps and seals by the same organization/teacher.
Also the stamps you get out of the back of magazines are VERY basic and not used on menjo/menkyo. They are easy to spot as being fake.
Anyone that has trained in Japan for a while and received rank here could spot a fake rank certificate in a nanosecond.



Originally posted by A.R.K.

Unless you personally know....you don't know.

:asian:

I have spotted several fake dan certificates that were posted on the net……..it’s easy.

[RyuShiKan]

Don,

I especially like your comment:


Originally posted by Don Roley
But 99 times out of 100 they come back and say, "lineages/rank aren't important- fighting is and we can fight!" Oh? If lineages aren't important, why did you mention them in the first place? And why should we trust your word that you guys can fight?

This comment could be said about bogus rank claimers too.
It seems the bozos that claim rank has no meaning also claim the highest grades and most ranks too!!
Oh the irony:rofl:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
When I say almost repackaging. I'm achknowledging the fact that somewhere in time somebody has done it all before.

I try to "present the whole package" you might say. What is differant is the "amount" ground grappling I emphasize. Not to mention the standup comes from Jun Fan. Everybody is saying "we grapple." but from what I've observed, they don't put much time in it.

I'm a natural standup fighter, so for me to talk "emphasizing" ground grappling, then there must be something there.

I don't teach someone to think of the ground as a first choice but I do teach them what to do when they are there and if someone is better at standup than them, then yes use the ground.

Last time I checked the only people who take ground grappling serious are grapplers. The majority of the the standup arts are weak in their ground game. I know what I'm talking about. I've rolled with all types, and the standup fighters show up for "pure matwork" because they don't get that in their schools.

But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out.:D
Try looking at places other than the mall

[A.R.K.]

Yiliquan 1,


Person A knows Persons B, C, and D personally. They train together, have coffee together, etc. Person B knows Persons E, F and G. By extension, then, if Person B says that Person A is well skilled, but Person C couldn't find their butt with both hands and a map, and Persons E, F and G have reason to believe that Person B knows what he/she is talking about, then they have credible evidence pointing to the fact that Person A kicks butt, and Person C can't find his...

Assuming that everyone of them is honest and doesn't have an axe to grind or agenda or hurt feelings or is their best buddy or.....

Still subjective and boils down to what a person wishes to accept as factual and wishes to believe.


And like I said before several times, at some point you have to trust somebody...

Bingo.

Don,


A Japanese art that has never been heard of in Japan, only the Middle East? Silly.

You misread my post. I said someone who has trained in a particular style [Japan or other] in the middle east by an Arabic instructor need not have any direct connection to the [alleged] originating country. If Mr. Smith an American lives in Nigeria and wishes to take TKD from a Nigerian national instructor he may do so. If he wishes to belong to a Nigerian TKD association or any other he may do so. But if he chooses not to that is fine as well. It is not going to increase his skill one iota to pay the high fees demanded by the Kukkiwon just to have their peace of paper.


If someone wanted to say they trained in a Japanese martial art, but there was not even a single Japanese source for it like the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, that is a pretty clear sign that someone is lying.

Nope this is incorrect. As I stated above. I can learn BJJ in America, I can learn TKD in Brazil, I can learn Yudo in Greenland. The only thing needed is a qualified instructor. Mr. Smith doesn't need paper from anywhere except perhaps his own instructor.


Someone can always take such an attitude.

On this we agree. Some people will whine and pitch a fit regardless of what they actually know first hand. Some have a preconcieved idea regardless of any diologe. pointless really to entertain them further..just let them blow. Eventually they'll wear themselves out. :D


Japanese is a difficult language and the chances that someone could peice one together without some ability is roughly the same as putting a monkey in a room with a typewriter and having it duplicate

Perhaps, but Japanese speaking people live outside Japan. All it takes is asking someone fluent to assist.

RyuShiKan,


Well actually you can’t just go to Kinko’s and get them made.

Anything can be duplicated with enough time and effort. Perhaps well, perhaps poorly.

In general,

Ability over paper. Paper is subjective and relative. Some accept, some don't. Bottom line is to go home safe to those you love.

:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

ZDW, MRJ, ARK, Dave Schultz or whatever you are calling yourself today,


Originally posted by A.R.K.

RyuShiKan,
Anything can be duplicated with enough time and effort.

Nice over generalization but your missing the point.
There are several ways to help prevent forgery of dan ranks.
First, they are hand written. Unless you can reproduce that person’s hand writing, which is EXTREMELY difficult, you won’t be able to. Getting a copy made at Kinko’s just won’t cut it.
Second, they are also numbered and dated. So if by off chance you get hold of a real one, try and scratch out the name and put yours in, you still have to match the date and number. If your number is higher than someone that got rank recently but yours is dated 5 years ago something is wrong! Also, most organization have a good idea of how many higher dan ranks they have……..and more than likely have met them at some point in time…….say during the examination to get said high dan rank.
Third, the hanko or stanp. Damn near impossible to copy one. You can make one with the same words on it but it will be EXTREMELY difficult to reproduce one that looks the same since they are hand carved. This means they are similar to a fingerprint and no two carvings are ever alike.




Originally posted by A.R.K.

Ability over paper.

It seems like the people that say things like this are the ones that make the most bogus claims to rank and more often than not seem to be the head of or belong many organization that promote people.


Spotting fake dan ranks and is rather easy.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.

You misread my post. I said someone who has trained in a particular style [Japan or other] in the middle east by an Arabic instructor need not have any direct connection to the [alleged] originating country. If Mr. Smith an American lives in Nigeria and wishes to take TKD from a Nigerian national instructor he may do so. If he wishes to belong to a Nigerian TKD association or any other he may do so. But if he chooses not to that is fine as well. It is not going to increase his skill one iota to pay the high fees demanded by the Kukkiwon just to have their peace of paper.
:asian: [/B]
That is stupid talk. If an instructor is teaching a Japanese art in the Middle East, he should have some connection to Japan. If an instructor is teaching a Middle Eastern art in Japan, he should have ties to the Middle East, as simple as that. If a Nigerian TKD association awards someone a black belt, then it really isn't worth anything out there in the real world, I'm sorry. When the guy receives a 9th dan from the Nigerian TKD association, and advertises that he has a 9th degree, but his sources don't check out with Kukkiwon, then it isn't worth it. Like everyone poitned out, if rank isn't important, why do they mention that they have a 9th degree from some second-hand organization?

[MartialArtist]

When someone claims a rank, I want it to be from the authentic source. I am an instructor (not really), and I do not belong to any organization in terms of teaching. I do belong to Kukkiwon but not as an instructor. My program is basically free, and anyone can join it. What I do is condition the people, toughen them up, go over the basics of all ranges of fighting, help people improve their athleticism and qualities that are needed to defend themselves. You can compare my classes to a military academy for comissioned, or boot camp for the enlisted. After my basic and advanced programs, I advise them to search for a school depending on what they're looking for. I recommend them to move on and give a few suggestions on where they could go.

Other than that, the few other arts that I do no care what organization they belong to is boxing and wrestling. Boxing, there is no rank. And the "organizations" are in very bad shape. Wrestling, it's individual really past college. There are clubs, there are some organizations, but there are a lot of "freelancers". But if someone claims to teach kyokushin and they have an 8th dan, I would like to see some relation to Mas Oyama.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Like everyone poitned out, if rank isn't important, why do they mention that they have a 9th degree from some second-hand organization?


Several reasons I think.

First, they can fool the uninitiated rather easily with this.
Second, like all conmen and crooks, they think they will never get caught, or nobody is looking.
Third, their ego NEEDS it. They have such a lack of confidence in their skills they promote themselves or their pals promote them through one of the mutual dan societies out there.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
ZDW, MRJ, ARK, Dave Schultz or whatever you are calling yourself today,



Nice over generalization but your missing the point.
There are several ways to help prevent forgery of dan ranks.
First, they are hand written. Unless you can reproduce that person’s hand writing, which is EXTREMELY difficult, you won’t be able to. Getting a copy made at Kinko’s just won’t cut it.
Second, they are also numbered and dated. So if by off chance you get hold of a real one, try and scratch out the name and put yours in, you still have to match the date and number. If your number is higher than someone that got rank recently but yours is dated 5 years ago something is wrong! Also, most organization have a good idea of how many higher dan ranks they have……..and more than likely have met them at some point in time…….say during the examination to get said high dan rank.
Third, the hanko or stanp. Damn near impossible to copy one. You can make one with the same words on it but it will be EXTREMELY difficult to reproduce one that looks the same since they are hand carved. This means they are similar to a fingerprint and no two carvings are ever alike.





It seems like the people that say things like this are the ones that make the most bogus claims to rank and more often than not seem to be the head of or belong many organization that promote people.


Spotting fake dan ranks and is rather easy.
Agreed.

Kukkiwon uses a similar system. Not only is there a hand-carved stamp, signature, etc., but with modern technology, and if you know someone with ties to Kukkiwon in some way (as a mere high instructor, grandmaster, or council member), you can just ask to go into their database. I've heard something that Kukkiwon has an online database but not sure, and if there was one, you would need all your information (such as your #, date on the certificate, your name, birthdate, all the information on the certificate.

What's more is that Kukkiwon also uses a special type of paper for higher poom certificates, like the American dollar bill. And like the dollar bills in the US ($5 and over), there are special markings that when help up in the light, you can see.

Counterfeiting a certificate is almost as hard as counterfeiting a $100 bill... And expecting to pass tests at a world bank.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
But if someone claims to teach kyokushin and they have an 8th dan, I would like to see some relation to Mas Oyama.

True.
Logic would dictate that they have a connection to Oyama or now that he is gone a legit part of his Org..

However, since there are few REAL 8th dans in traditional systems based in Okinawa/Japan and most of them are fairly well know it would be easy to verify such claims.
If someone claims “I have (insert bloated dan rank) from Billy Bob’s Bar Room Ryu.” It doesn’t bother me since it is a “new” system and they can claim any dan rank they want.
When people make claims to extremely high rank in traditional styles based in Okinawa/Japan then I get suspicious.


Making false claims to high ranks in Okinawa/Japan is not only uneducated but also childish and shows a lack of understanding what REAL martial arts are about.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Agreed.

Kukkiwon uses a similar system. Not only is there a hand-carved stamp, signature, etc., but with modern technology, and if you know someone with ties to Kukkiwon in some way (as a mere high instructor, grandmaster, or council member), you can just ask to go into their database. I've heard something that Kukkiwon has an online database but not sure, and if there was one, you would need all your information (such as your #, date on the certificate, your name, birthdate, all the information on the certificate. What's more is that Kukkiwon also uses a special type of paper for higher poom certificates, like the American dollar bill.

My teacher’s association uses something similar to this as well, plus having your photo on the certificate……..so unless someone goes to get some cosmetic surgery they won’t be able to fake the certificates. In my teacher’s association dan and kyu certificates differ in style, paper, and writing, that way dishonest people can’t bump themselves up if they leave the association.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
My friend, you need to take a trip "Down Under"!
The version of Ryukyu Kempo that I am learning, incorporates all ranges of combat.
I think you would be quite surprised as to how in-depth we go.

--Dave

:asian:

"I'm listening" but I've still yet to "see" it anywhere in a "traditional" school. I don't like to say it like that beause I'm learning some traditional arts but it boils down to what everybody considers all ranges, which we've had this discussion before.

I don't doubt you, but my description of all ranges is not just "quick type" submissions and locks on the ground, which is the case "most" of the time when people"say" they cover all ranges and "technically" they are correct.

My definition of all ranges goes deep into submission grappling. I've put a lot of time in BJJ just for that reason. I don't want an argument about whose arts are better or whose definitions are right.

I teach my students how to fight from their backs, the way I was taught and I do this for a reason. To "truly understand" the ground, you need to put in the time "on the ground", not just going to the ground briefly and getting back up.

I spend close to a third of my teaching time (not for a new beginner though, but soon they will be there too) on the ground. Most people seem to think that we look to the ground to end a fight. We know thats a "dangerous" place to be in a real fight.

Thats just the type of training that "I beleive" it takes to be able to defeat someone with wrestling experience, which in America is common. Actually in high school I did fight one of the wrestlers and even though I had been in Kajukenbo for several years, I did not get the message yet.

So just for clarification. I am a "student" of traditional Ju Jitsu and I draw most of my grappling from BJJ and now I'm incorporating traditional Ju Jitsu in because I see both trad. JJ and BJJ as going well together. Trad. JJ opens up new doors that the BJJ world does not see and vice versa.

To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about the extensive matwork, I have a student who is a Thai fighter and he is good too. He can kick the crap out of the average Karate balck belt. I said "AVERAGE" so as not to step on to many toes with my statement. The truth is, he is an "acclimated" fighter.

I've told him all along that by brown belt I expect him to be a well versed grappler. He is definately equivalent to black belt. I put him in for a Sankyu. Hanshi has signed the certificate and sent it back to me. This was in March. Although I will give it to him soon, I have yet to give it to him because I'm pushing him to go deeper in his grappling.

So Dave, if you can direct me to some links or post something that I could see, that would be great. I can't dispute anybodys "truth in martial arts" but I have yet to see "my methods" in someone elses school. On a side note, My Kempo Ju Jitsu is primarily based on Jun Fan and BJJ. So it still is some what differant no matter how we look at it. It would be wrong to say itis "JUST" Gung-Fu or Ju Jitsu or Karate.

But it would be correct to say it is Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung-Fu.:asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Try looking at places other than the mall I was "HEARING YA" until I read that! :D

Care to enlighten us on Military TKD? It seems that TKD is the one thats most common place in the mall.:D

[A.R.K.]

ZDW, MRJ, ARK, Dave Schultz or whatever you are calling yourself today

:rolleyes:


There are several ways to help prevent forgery of dan ranks.

Whatever you would like to believe is fine. I suppose one could just buy their rank from Japan instead of going about the trouble of forging one. Seems you stated a while back that this type of thing happens their just as it does here...


It seems like the people that say things like this are the ones that make the most bogus claims to rank and more often than not seem to be the head of or belong many organization that promote people.

And your evidence for this concernig someone here would be...??? O'wait...I forgot this was suppose to be a dead issue :rolleyes: Seems like you still are quite concerned with it though :shrug: Ability over paper ANYDAY. Seems those who disagree don't have much realworld ability but lots of lineage. Lineage won't help you in a dark parking lot...realworld experience will.

Lets lay it on the line Robert, we aren't fond of each other...fair enough. You think I have to belong to a particular organization for credibility...I disagree. I think 'rank' is merely what others above you think of your training, nothing more or less. Since there is NO standardization or universally accepted SOP's then rank is subjective and relative. The ONLY thing that matters IS ability. Either personally or also as an instructor.

You are not going to thing I'm credible in terms of wall candy since I do not belong to an organization in Okinawa. Fine Robert...FINE. It doesn't matter. The only one going on and on and on and on about my 'rank' is you. I've mentioned it a couple of times in passing...you've droned on about it for months in your little soap box sessions. If Grandmasters in America or the Middle East or Timbukto recognize me as whatever...who cares? What does it affect in the world of martial arts? Is it taking food out of your mouth Robert? Is it causing you many a sleepless night? Give me a break :shrug: A thread closes and you start another one up so you can climb up on your soap box and whine again and again and again. Give it a rest man :mad:

You wanna get down to brass tacs...you whine about lineage and wall candy and crediblility and down play the realworld ability. Real world ability is not only the main thing Robert it is the ONLY main thing. Let me repeat that again in case you missed it the first time...Real world ability is not only the main thing Robert it is the ONLY main thing. Lineage is fine, wall candy is fine, perfect kata is fine, drills are fine, oriental organizations are fine...but unless you've used it in combat to protect yourself or another....its only a hobby. That includes instructors who have never actually been in harms way. Oh, yeah they can teach...from others experiences...but not their OWN experiences.

I have a partner that I cross-train with. He has NO official ranking other than a brown belt from 20 years ago in a system he has never used outside the dojo. But he has training in catch wrestling, boxing, ju jitsu etc with no rank earned and has used that training on more violent felons that even I have. I would rather recieve training from him that any 5th Dan from Japan who has no experience outside the dojo.

I could see you having a complaint if every other post from me was 'oh I'm so great cause I'm an 8th Dan'...'Everyone bow to me cause I'm an 8th Dan'...'oh, it's been 5 minutes...did I mention I'm an 8th Dan' or if I had a string of mcdojos and no experienc and I was scamming people and laughing all the way to the bank. but your the only one going on about it. Hardly ANYONE here would even know my ranks if you weren't whining about them. I don't have it in my profile...I don't have it on my website....I keep all my wall candy in a box in my closet...

What I have posted is that I do have real world experience...ALOT OF IT. Against real BADGUYS. Associates can and have verified that. I can provide you with all the proof from my agency should you care to call them and ask. It's public record and I DO have a good reputation here as the guy to call when it all breaks loose. Nope...not superman...but somethings I do well!

So Robert, I don't care about my wall candy...nobody else here cares about my wall candy...why are you so obsessed with it? I've said it before, I cannot offer you evidence of it's credibilty that you will accept. So I've stated publically to forget about it...it doesn't exist....think of me as a white belt....think of me as a no belt....hell, don't think of me at all. Your whinning doesn't matter and doesn't change a thing. I can still teach and will do so by the grace of God. My students have used my training in real world situations numerous times AND THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD COUNT! My students aren't concerned with kata competition, they are concerned with taking down the violent felon and getting him cuffed and going home...period.

So I'm not a traditionalist [and neither are you btw], I've never claimed to be one....and I wouldn't want to be one. How many more threads are you going start? How many more snide remarks? How many more unsubstantiated allegations? How much more whining? Or can you actually be true to your word and BE DONE WITH IT?

Everyone that I have provided verification to has been satisfied. Nobody cares what 'rank' I am, only that I am a good teacher.

ENOUGH

[A.R.K.]

Akja,

That is the common perception i.e. TKD=McDojo.

To bad to, real TKD [as opposed to the commercialized tippy tap stuff] is quite good.

:asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
:rolleyes:
:rofl: just as I thought.....





Originally posted by A.R.K.
Whatever you would like to believe is fine. I suppose one could just buy their rank from Japan instead of going about the trouble of forging one. Seems you stated a while back that this type of thing happens their just as it does here...


Yup, and most people know them to be such and laugh when folks present rank given by those sources too.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Akja,

That is the common perception i.e. TKD=McDojo.

To bad to, real TKD [as opposed to the commercialized tippy tap stuff] is quite good.

:asian:

I know some TKD guys that are good fighters but its the ones ( day care centers) in the mall that "present" the "mall image" for the rest. :asian:

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.


Lets lay it on the line Robert, we aren't fond of each other...fair enough.

You and DAC have stated several times that I am an “idiot” which to pretty much denotes your feelings about me……..however I can’t recall stating whether I like you or even dislike you.



Originally posted by A.R.K.
You think I have to belong to a particular organization for credibility...I disagree

You have twisted my meaning.
I think if you claim to have rank from a legit organization the claim should be legit. What you can or can not do was never the issue.


As for the rest of your diatribe it is the same old song played over from other posts you have made to which I have already commented on.

Also, I don’t remember anyone pointing to you or your claims specifically in this post…………why do you feel this topic is about you.

I and others were speaking of people in general not about you.

[A.R.K.]

You and DAC have stated several times that I am an “idiot” which to pretty much denotes your feelings about me……..however I can’t recall stating whether I like you or even dislike you.

Lets just say that is the general feeling I've gotten since day one when you jumped me with ten consecutive posts without giving me opportunity to reply and answer. Fair enough...you have my public apology for the reference and I sincerly hope you forgive my trespass and personal attack :asian:


I think if you claim to have rank from a legit organization the claim should be legit. What you can or can not do was never the issue.

I have recognition from legitimate organizations BUT they are not in Okinawa. If ONLY recognition from an Okinawian organization counts in your eyes then as I've said....I don't have them. I am affiliated with American, European and Middle Eastern organizations. And I resent any 'Mutual Dan giving party with my buddies' comments on your part because this is NOT the case. I have earned through hard work what I have attained. I have not spent one penny on 'recognition' through ANY organization ever! Although I don't wear it, use it, teach it or display it...it is still something personal to me that I know I've earned because of hard work and dedication. If my 'I's' aren't dotted and 'T's' crossed to your satisfaction, it still does not diminish my effort and ability.


I and others were speaking of people in general not about you.

Alright...fine. Then I will assume that any further comments, if any, in the future aren't about me either.

You know Robert, if you and I can put away the sabers long enough we might actually find that we don't poise a threat to each other. We might find that we have much in common. We might find we can learn from one anther. We might even find a friendship.

I am willing. I would like to see if you are as well.

With respect :asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
"I'm listening" but I've still yet to "see" it anywhere in a "traditional" school. I don't like to say it like that beause I'm learning some traditional arts but it boils down to what everybody considers all ranges, which we've had this discussion before.

I don't doubt you, but my description of all ranges is not just "quick type" submissions and locks on the ground, which is the case "most" of the time when people"say" they cover all ranges and "technically" they are correct.

My definition of all ranges goes deep into submission grappling. I've put a lot of time in BJJ just for that reason. I don't want an argument about whose arts are better or whose definitions are right.

I teach my students how to fight from their backs, the way I was taught and I do this for a reason. To "truly understand" the ground, you need to put in the time "on the ground", not just going to the ground briefly and getting back up.

I spend close to a third of my teaching time (not for a new beginner though, but soon they will be there too) on the ground. Most people seem to think that we look to the ground to end a fight. We know thats a "dangerous" place to be in a real fight.

Thats just the type of training that "I beleive" it takes to be able to defeat someone with wrestling experience, which in America is common. Actually in high school I did fight one of the wrestlers and even though I had been in Kajukenbo for several years, I did not get the message yet.

So just for clarification. I am a "student" of traditional Ju Jitsu and I draw most of my grappling from BJJ and now I'm incorporating traditional Ju Jitsu in because I see both trad. JJ and BJJ as going well together. Trad. JJ opens up new doors that the BJJ world does not see and vice versa.

To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about the extensive matwork, I have a student who is a Thai fighter and he is good too. He can kick the crap out of the average Karate balck belt. I said "AVERAGE" so as not to step on to many toes with my statement. The truth is, he is an "acclimated" fighter.

I've told him all along that by brown belt I expect him to be a well versed grappler. He is definately equivalent to black belt. I put him in for a Sankyu. Hanshi has signed the certificate and sent it back to me. This was in March. Although I will give it to him soon, I have yet to give it to him because I'm pushing him to go deeper in his grappling.

So Dave, if you can direct me to some links or post something that I could see, that would be great. I can't dispute anybodys "truth in martial arts" but I have yet to see "my methods" in someone elses school. On a side note, My Kempo Ju Jitsu is primarily based on Jun Fan and BJJ. So it still is some what differant no matter how we look at it. It would be wrong to say itis "JUST" Gung-Fu or Ju Jitsu or Karate.

But it would be correct to say it is Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung-Fu.:asian:
Covering all ranges means that you should be pretty rounded in all ranges of fighting... That does not mean you have to be the best submission fighter, that defeats the whole purpose, because if you just use submissions, then you aren't well rounded.

Your teaching methods are unique, since they are your's. Mine are also unique. My instructors in the past had a unique teaching style was unique. It differs for most people.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
I was "HEARING YA" until I read that! :D

Care to enlighten us on Military TKD? It seems that TKD is the one thats most common place in the mall.:D
Military TKD is similiar to hapkido, some boxing, wrestling and jujitsu takedowns and submissions, and many fast kicks and power kicks that are found in muay thai and sport TKD. Only that high kicks are only practiced for indirect means.

Military TKD isn't for people in the military, just a name for its militant nature. Most of the training I went to was full-contact sparring. The conditioning aspect of it is comparable to that of the British SAS, and 1-2 hours out of the 4 hours training (takes some dedication as you might imagine) were conditioning. Depends on the day, as it's impossible to go 4 hours everyday. But there was a lot of character building, especially the mental part.

And yes, most of the TKD is one that is most common in the mall. I don't deny it, and I don't look the other way. It's nearly impossible to find a school that is not watereddown or sport-oriented in the US. If the local wrestling club (which preps middle schoolers for high school wrestling) gets sued because a kid sprained his ankle, what do you expect out of any MA school where the people are punched in the face?

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
:rofl: just as I thought.....






Yup, and most people know them to be such and laugh when folks present rank given by those sources too.
Yeah, you must have LOADS of money to bribe an organization in Japan. It's not so simple...

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
I know some TKD guys that are good fighters but its the ones ( day care centers) in the mall that "present" the "mall image" for the rest. :asian:
OMG, have you seen any of them? They are badasses because they can break plywood boards! Plus, did you know they memorized 20 forms? Did you know they can yell real "kiyaahhh" real loud too? I wouldn't want to tangle with them, even if it was a friendly exhibition sparring match. They're too deadly. I would advise you to do the same.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Lets just say that is the general feeling I've gotten since day one when you jumped me with ten consecutive posts without giving me opportunity to reply and answer. Fair enough...you have my public apology for the reference and I sincerly hope you forgive my trespass and personal attack :asian:



I have recognition from legitimate organizations BUT they are not in Okinawa. If ONLY recognition from an Okinawian organization counts in your eyes then as I've said....I don't have them. I am affiliated with American, European and Middle Eastern organizations. And I resent any 'Mutual Dan giving party with my buddies' comments on your part because this is NOT the case. I have earned through hard work what I have attained. I have not spent one penny on 'recognition' through ANY organization ever! Although I don't wear it, use it, teach it or display it...it is still something personal to me that I know I've earned because of hard work and dedication. If my 'I's' aren't dotted and 'T's' crossed to your satisfaction, it still does not diminish my effort and ability.



Alright...fine. Then I will assume that any further comments, if any, in the future aren't about me either.

You know Robert, if you and I can put away the sabers long enough we might actually find that we don't poise a threat to each other. We might find that we have much in common. We might find we can learn from one anther. We might even find a friendship.

I am willing. I would like to see if you are as well.

With respect :asian:
And what organizations are those?

I don't know about you, but the sound of a Japanese art from a Middle Eastern organization (meaning there are no ties at all) then I'd be suspicious. I'd be suspicious of an organization based in Argentina gave belts for krav maga. Or a Japanese art in the United States. Kempo is American, and although it is based on Japanese arts, it is still American. And the founder of Kempo did have Japanese ties that check out.

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
You are not going to thing I'm credible in terms of wall candy since I do not belong to an organization in Okinawa.

Actually, if I understand all the screaming that has gone on so far, the problem seems to be that someone made a claim of being ranked in a system/orginizaion that is based in Okinawa. When that orginization was called, it turned out that the Okinawan orginization never heard of the person and the circumstances of him getting the rank were not possible.

The natural conclusion that can be made from this is that the person making the claim is a fraud. Which kind of puts any other claim that this person makes in doubt. For example, if this person starts saying that he has had real combat experience, I do not see why anyone should believe them. For all we know, he could be the a truely incompetent fraud and has surrounded himself with students that are even more dense than he. In fact, I do not see why anyone with any level of competence would have reason to lie about his personal ranking. As such, it is more likely that he is an incompetent fraud than had he never made the claims in the first place.

If the person had not made a claim that turned out to be an utter fabrication, then no one would probably be thinking of this person as being an incompetent fraud and Virtual Tough Guy. As it is, he made the claim, it turned out to be false and now everything this guy says is now suspect.

And I happen to agree that ability trumps paper every time. But the fact is, he did make a claim to a certain rank- which is paper. And the burdon of proof lies on those that make claims, not anyone else.
:duel:

[Kirk]

The wind must've blown, causing the horse to twitch.

[Jill666]

Kirk, you are beautiful. :boing2:

[Don Roley]

Of course (trying to bring this back on subject) if someone was to make a claim on the internet like this,


I do have real world experience...ALOT OF IT. Against real BADGUYS.

how should we verify it?

In this case, I would think that police reports, Emergency room logs and the like would be the place to start. Anyone who claims to have had real world experience but can not show a police report is either lying or considers "real world experience" to be the type of thing I got into back in kindergarten. In the real world, the police get very, very interested in violent situations.

Case in point- Peytonn Quinn (his web page can be found at RMCAT.com). Quinn was attacked with a friend by three guys- at least one of whom had a baseball bat. Do you think that there was no paperwork after that situation? In fact, Quinn faced legal problems when the creeps that attacked him then lied to the police as to who started the ambush.

This is a case where a claim on the internet can be easily verified without having to resort to other people's statements. Police records are about as solid an evidence as you can get for this type of discussion. Anyone who would claim to be real experienced and then say his stories could not verified with the police should be treated like an incompetent fraud.

[A.R.K.]

Don,

Negative. The art is originally Chinese, but there happens to be an Okinawin organization going be a similar name. As problems occurred in years past politically within the Uechi world many off-shoots came into existance. Many had the view of returning as best as is possible to simply the Pangainoon system. Therefore some have allegence to Okinawa, home of Uechi ryu, some have allegence to China and some simply no longer communicated with either. Things beyond my control. Pangainoon is of alleged Chinese origin. Why would one need Okinawin permission to pursue training in it? Since multiple arts are taught in countries other than their alleged origin, why would one need any relation to that country to train? I've never been to China...but I have learned and taught Chin Na. I don't think it has upset the Chinese any that I have learned and taught it..do you?

Pangainoon has migrated to many, many countries as has Uechi ryu. As a result many fine, strong martial artists have been produced from these countries and many without any 'assistance' from outside sources. If I am at X rank and I teach you well up to Y rank in America and then you move to Russia and continue on educating students in that art...wonderful. You will either be a competent instructor based on what you were taught or you won't. Membership in an organization will not change this. I have received my rank from non=Asian MA's. There is nothing wrong with that. I have done so by working very hard over a 30 year period of time. An organization [any] will not do the work for me, the will not test for me and they certainly won't be there in the dark alley when the bg comes calling.

I do belong to organizations for fellowship. They have scrutinized my credentials and background. They have recognized my achievements after that scrutiny. They have not charged me one penny.

My real world experience, as I've said, is verifiable as it is public record. And has not been in disputed by anyone.

In my personal opinion the Middle East has a stronger 'tradition' than some of the Oriental countries. It is my wish to associate with them. They have chosen to recognize me of their own free will. That has satisfied many people. If it does not satisfy you then so be it. Either way nothing is changed. No one here can argue that rank is not subjective and relative. No one here can argue that after a certain point, rank is time in grade and to a point honorary. No one here can argue that the Asians have cornered the market on anything. No one here can argue that style X can only be taught in certain countries.

If anyone here wishes to believe that a particular country MUST have their hand involved, MUST have their seal of approval, MUST be paid tribute...then we will respectfully disagree. If you feel that colors any input I have on any other subject that is entirely up to you. Either way nothing is changed.

This dead horse is a die hard :rofl:

[A.R.K.]

Anyone who would claim to be real experienced and then say his stories could not verified with the police should be treated like an incompetent fraud.

Absolutely correct. As I just finished saying my experience is public record. Not proud of it, I don't glory in it, it doesn't bring honor....but I have been there and have/will say so. What we do is because some bg forced us to do so. And because I do have the experience I teach in the police academy at S.E.P.S.I., another verifiable source.

Martial arts as we've discussed has no rule book or universally accepted SOP's...and never will. FDLE is quite another story altogther.

:asian:

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
As I just finished saying my experience is public record.

And how would someone who is suspicious go about accessing that public record? What are the dates and police report numbers? Remember, the onus is on the person making the claim- not just by talking as if it were fact- but by actually giving enough information so that people can independently verify the information for themselves.


Pangainoon is of alleged Chinese origin. Why would one need Okinawin permission to pursue training in it?

I do not think that is the point. If the art merely has the same name as an Okinawan art, but is not Okinawan, then what is the contact information for the non- Okinawan orginization?

The point seems to be is that the only orginiation that some people can find with that name happens to be in Okinawa, and the Okinawan orginization denies the claim. If an error has been made, then what is the actual orginization and/or teacher that issued the rank so that the claim can be verified?

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by akja
"I'm listening" but I've still yet to "see" it anywhere in a "traditional" school. I don't like to say it like that beause I'm learning some traditional arts but it boils down to what everybody considers all ranges, which we've had this discussion before.

I don't doubt you, but my description of all ranges is not just "quick type" submissions and locks on the ground, which is the case "most" of the time when people"say" they cover all ranges and "technically" they are correct.

My definition of all ranges goes deep into submission grappling. I've put a lot of time in BJJ just for that reason. I don't want an argument about whose arts are better or whose definitions are right.

I teach my students how to fight from their backs, the way I was taught and I do this for a reason. To "truly understand" the ground, you need to put in the time "on the ground", not just going to the ground briefly and getting back up.

I spend close to a third of my teaching time (not for a new beginner though, but soon they will be there too) on the ground. Most people seem to think that we look to the ground to end a fight. We know thats a "dangerous" place to be in a real fight.

Thats just the type of training that "I beleive" it takes to be able to defeat someone with wrestling experience, which in America is common. Actually in high school I did fight one of the wrestlers and even though I had been in Kajukenbo for several years, I did not get the message yet.

So just for clarification. I am a "student" of traditional Ju Jitsu and I draw most of my grappling from BJJ and now I'm incorporating traditional Ju Jitsu in because I see both trad. JJ and BJJ as going well together. Trad. JJ opens up new doors that the BJJ world does not see and vice versa.

To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about the extensive matwork, I have a student who is a Thai fighter and he is good too. He can kick the crap out of the average Karate balck belt. I said "AVERAGE" so as not to step on to many toes with my statement. The truth is, he is an "acclimated" fighter.

I've told him all along that by brown belt I expect him to be a well versed grappler. He is definately equivalent to black belt. I put him in for a Sankyu. Hanshi has signed the certificate and sent it back to me. This was in March. Although I will give it to him soon, I have yet to give it to him because I'm pushing him to go deeper in his grappling.

So Dave, if you can direct me to some links or post something that I could see, that would be great. I can't dispute anybodys "truth in martial arts" but I have yet to see "my methods" in someone elses school. On a side note, My Kempo Ju Jitsu is primarily based on Jun Fan and BJJ. So it still is some what differant no matter how we look at it. It would be wrong to say itis "JUST" Gung-Fu or Ju Jitsu or Karate.

But it would be correct to say it is Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung-Fu.:asian:


I can't really point you anywhere on the net... Mr. Monea is incredibly modest when it comes to showing what he can do beyond the dojo. I can tell you that he is teaching Kempo, according to the way the old texts show it.
He tells us that Kempo in its original form also incorporated grappling, and can demonstrate this from kata. our school is very traditional, we maintain all facets of dojo ettiquette, and Senseii is very strict when it comes to enforcing it.
As I say though, I can't really show you anything. Even when he was contacted by a local MA magazine, he told them that they would be better off interviewing his students rather than himself. His words were something along the lines of, "It would be boring to interview me, as I have no original thoughts of my own, when it comes to martial arts. Everything I say or do has been said or done before."
Of course I am paraphrasing, but you get the point, right?

I can tell you that when we train in the grappling side of things, we will do so many basics you think you're going to break before you get any 'real' stuff in. We spent 2 hours one night, doing break falls.

We were seperated into 4 groups, one group to a corner of the room. The lights went out, the strobe went on, the music went loud(like a night club), and we had kick shields piled up, abot 3 Ft. high, in the middle of the room.
He blew his whistle(the only way he could be heard over the music), and we ran full pelt in an "X" pattern, and did the old diving break falls over the pads. Man, talk about adrenal stress!!
This is just one of many things we have done in class, if you want to know more, you'll just have to come visit.

--Dave

:asian:

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Absolutely correct. As I just finished saying my experience is public record. Not proud of it, I don't glory in it, it doesn't bring honor....but I have been there and have/will say so. What we do is because some bg forced us to do so. And because I do have the experience I teach in the police academy at S.E.P.S.I., another verifiable source.

Martial arts as we've discussed has no rule book or universally accepted SOP's...and never will. FDLE is quite another story altogther.

:asian:

What is S.E.P.S.I.?

--Dave

[A.R.K.]

Assuming we are talking about an Officer/Instructor....

Simple, call FDLE and ask if they are a State certified Police Instructor.

Simple, call S.E.P.S.I. and ask if they have taught Academy/In-service classes.

Simple, call the Sheriff's Office and speak with a Supervisor that has first hand knowledge of the individual and that individuals background and history.

Uses-of-force are of course public record. It is my understanding that anyone coming into the agency, such as the media, has full access to work involved information. Procedures from out-of-state or out-of-country I am not familar with as it's never come up in regards to me personally.

FDLE & SEPSI numbers are available on the internet. Policy prohibits me from posting department numbers on the internet in an open forum. However email communication seems to be fine. If anyone wished to speak with a Cpl. or Sgt familar with me, they have but to communicate with me via email. Of course the trust issue comes into play that Chufeng mentioned in regards to individuals attesting to anything regardless of the arena.

As other officers have publically vouched for me here, along with my real world experiences it has never come up. Everyone seems to be satisfied that this information is factual. If you need any contact then simply email me. I will not be checking it till Tuesday of next week if you chose to do so, I don't go online on my days off.

As to the martial arts, same goes via email. Plenty of excellent, valid organization which are open to practitioners/Instructors of various styles. Organizations that require all kinds of documentation, verification numbers, personal references etc. One organization put me under the microscope for two months, asking for details on this and that and teachers and dates and numbers etc. Understandable because my training has not been restricted to America as I've lived in the Middle East.

I'm off to start my weekend. To all stay safe.

:asian:

[A.R.K.]

D.Cobb,

My apologies, I forget sometimes to give the whole thing. It stands for the South Eastern Public Safety Institute in St. Petersburg Fl. We run all of the Academies out of there i.e. Police, Corrections, EOT, Fire, Probation & Parole etc. Also in-service classes for Agencies in the surrounding counties.

:asian:

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Uses-of-force are of course public record. It is my understanding that anyone coming into the agency, such as the media, has full access to work involved information. Procedures from out-of-state or out-of-country I am not familar with as it's never come up in regards to me personally.

FDLE & SEPSI numbers are available on the internet. Policy prohibits me from posting department numbers on the internet in an open forum. However email communication seems to be fine. If anyone wished to speak with a Cpl. or Sgt familar with me, they have but to communicate with me via email. Of course the trust issue comes into play that Chufeng mentioned in regards to individuals attesting to anything regardless of the arena.

Strange, it all seems to come down to your word rather than something someone else could call or contact on their own. You can not even seem to be able to give report numbers, dates and other relevent information that would help the suspicious.

Of course, I would trust a police department that I could verify the phone number of and then call to check on the police report facts given to me. E-mail and messege boards are not very trustworthy. There are many, many cases of which I am aware that people have gotten more than one screen name on a BBS to praise themselves, or gotten friends to do so. I prefer to get a police report number and call a station myself (after confirming in a phone book that the number is real and not a friend of the guy making the claims) before I would trust anyone on the internet.

[chufeng]

Both sides...
Regardless of where you fall on this issue, please don't use my comments to bolster your argument...
I am done with this circular argument...
Have been for awhile, now...don't feel like swimming with sharks at the moment...when I do, I'll let you know.

:asian:
chufeng

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Covering all ranges means that you should be pretty rounded in all ranges of fighting... That does not mean you have to be the best submission fighter, that defeats the whole purpose, because if you just use submissions, then you aren't well rounded.

Your teaching methods are unique, since they are your's. Mine are also unique. My instructors in the past had a unique teaching style was unique. It differs for most people.

Thats all I was really saying but too many people read the posts word for word. Words many times have multiple meanings and it is natural sometimes to read things in a differant light than they were meant. I acknowledged that "all ranges" differ from school to school but that mine includes extensive groundwork.

There are 2 reasons why I stress extensive "ground work".

One, because it is the best way to totally have a complete "understanding" of both offense and defense on the ground.

Two, with that level of an understanding of the ground, we should be able to get out of a dangerous ground situation in the street, or at least work to a better position.

Many people claims they do a lot of ground work but in reality, "in my opinion", its not enough. So they are a standup art. Mine is not completely a standup art. There is more standup, that is where my heart is, but I am also a grappler. :asian:

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Military TKD is similiar to hapkido, some boxing, wrestling and jujitsu takedowns and submissions, and many fast kicks and power kicks that are found in muay thai and sport TKD. Only that high kicks are only practiced for indirect means.

Military TKD isn't for people in the military, just a name for its militant nature. Most of the training I went to was full-contact sparring. The conditioning aspect of it is comparable to that of the British SAS, and 1-2 hours out of the 4 hours training (takes some dedication as you might imagine) were conditioning. Depends on the day, as it's impossible to go 4 hours everyday. But there was a lot of character building, especially the mental part.

And yes, most of the TKD is one that is most common in the mall. I don't deny it, and I don't look the other way. It's nearly impossible to find a school that is not watereddown or sport-oriented in the US. If the local wrestling club (which preps middle schoolers for high school wrestling) gets sued because a kid sprained his ankle, what do you expect out of any MA school where the people are punched in the face?

Sounds kinda like how Combat Hapkido evolved from traditional Hapkido. I always like Hapkido, it was the second art I ever trained it back in the '70's. I'm not sure if there any traditional school like that around anymore.

And it also sounds like the "name" is justified because it is differant.:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Don,

Negative. The art is originally Chinese, but there happens to be an Okinawin organization going be a similar name. As problems occurred in years past politically within the Uechi world many off-shoots came into existance. Many had the view of returning as best as is possible to simply the Pangainoon system. Therefore some have allegence to Okinawa, home of Uechi ryu, some have allegence to China and some simply no longer communicated with either. Things beyond my control. Pangainoon is of alleged Chinese origin. Why would one need Okinawin permission to pursue training in it? Since multiple arts are taught in countries other than their alleged origin, why would one need any relation to that country to train? I've never been to China...but I have learned and taught Chin Na. I don't think it has upset the Chinese any that I have learned and taught it..do you?


My real world experience, as I've said, is verifiable as it is public record. And has not been in disputed by anyone.


If anyone here wishes to believe that a particular country MUST have their hand involved, MUST have their seal of approval, MUST be paid tribute...then we will respectfully disagree. If you feel that colors any input I have on any other subject that is entirely up to you. Either way nothing is changed.

This dead horse is a die hard :rofl:
:rolleyes:
You don't have to have been to China to be associated with it. The organization however, is Chinese, and that means that at least most the people from your training lineage should have originated from China.

Pangainoon has migrated to many, many countries as has Uechi ryu. As a result many fine, strong martial artists have been produced from these countries and many without any 'assistance' from outside sources. If I am at X rank and I teach you well up to Y rank in America and then you move to Russia and continue on educating students in that art...wonderful. You will either be a competent instructor based on what you were taught or you won't. Membership in an organization will not change this. I have received my rank from non=Asian MA's. There is nothing wrong with that. I have done so by working very hard over a 30 year period of time. An organization [any] will not do the work for me, the will not test for me and they certainly won't be there in the dark alley when the bg comes calling.
The problem is, you're trying to be certified in an art that was from X country from an organization from Y country. Relocated should have no difference on your certification.


I do belong to organizations for fellowship. They have scrutinized my credentials and background. They have recognized my achievements after that scrutiny. They have not charged me one penny.
And what is the background, your credentials, and what organizations?

In my personal opinion the Middle East has a stronger 'tradition' than some of the Oriental countries. It is my wish to associate with them. They have chosen to recognize me of their own free will. That has satisfied many people. If it does not satisfy you then so be it. Either way nothing is changed. No one here can argue that rank is not subjective and relative. No one here can argue that after a certain point, rank is time in grade and to a point honorary. No one here can argue that the Asians have cornered the market on anything. No one here can argue that style X can only be taught in certain countries.
At least back the opinion up. You just say the Middle East has a stronger "tradition". How so? Lineage wise? Spiritually? What do you mean? And that isn't the point. The point is, if you are teaching a Japanese style, you should have some Japanese association. As simple as that. There is a new BJJ instructor around here, who also voluntarily taught with me ever since the beginning of March. He's really young, being around 25. He learned BJJ in the US. His late BJJ instructor also learned BJJ in the US... However, his teacher did indeed have ties with the Gracies. And they are all authentic, not from some third-rate organization. It's not about what countries that X art is being taught at. It is that NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY, THERE SHOULD BE TIES TO THE ORIGINAL COUNTRY.

Last time I heard, there was really no restriction on what countries the seal could be sent. You can have an authentic seal and certificate in ANY country, so I don't know what you are talking about.

[Edit] Grammatical Error on teaches/taught

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
OMG, have you seen any of them? They are badasses because they can break plywood boards! Plus, did you know they memorized 20 forms? Did you know they can yell real "kiyaahhh" real loud too? I wouldn't want to tangle with them, even if it was a friendly exhibition sparring match. They're too deadly. I would advise you to do the same.

I was saying that I "personally Know" some fighters that are good and they're primary art is TKD. But I would not say they are top notch. Of course they couldn't touch me.:D

Recently I went to pizza parlor and there was a TKD school next door. There was probably 20 kids lined up, all black and brown belts. They were taking turns, one at a time kicking a kicking shield. And one by one each of them "bounced" off of the kicking shield. But they spinned pretty good.:D

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
Thats all I was really saying but too many people read the posts word for word. Words many times have multiple meanings and it is natural sometimes to read things in a differant light than they were meant. I acknowledged that "all ranges" differ from school to school but that mine includes extensive groundwork.

There are 2 reasons why I stress extensive "ground work".

One, because it is the best way to totally have a complete "understanding" of both offense and defense on the ground.

Two, with that level of an understanding of the ground, we should be able to get out of a dangerous ground situation in the street, or at least work to a better position.

Many people claims they do a lot of ground work but in reality, "in my opinion", its not enough. So they are a standup art. Mine is not completely a standup art. There is more standup, that is where my heart is, but I am also a grappler. :asian:
Of course every combat art has extensive grappling. But there is no reason to have it 50/50 or anything like that. It is up to the person to decide if he wants as much grappling as striking, or etc. I personally am more of a 75/25 type of guy. There are people who are 90/10 striking/grappling, but that doesn't mean that they aren't good grapplers. I have one person who's, I don't know, I won't put a number on him because I have never seen him fight really, but he's been a wrestler all his life. Yet, when he spars, he's more of a striker. Doesn't mean he's a bad grappler at all, he just chooses to grapple when he thinks is right. I don't understand why, he's a much better grappler than he is a striker, but he's still very good.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
I was saying that I "personally Know" some fighters that are good and they're primary art is TKD. But I would not say they are top notch. Of course they couldn't touch me.:D

Recently I went to pizza parlor anfd there was a TKD school next door. Thee was probably 20 kids lined up, all black and brown belts. They were taking turns, one at a time kicking a kicking shield. And one by one each of them "bounced" off of the kicking shield. But they spinned pretty good.:D
Oh dare you talk bad on the mall people :soapbox: :rolleyes: Don't you realize that they can shoot fireballs while doing a triple spinning hook kick?

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by D.Cobb
I can't really point you anywhere on the net... Mr. Monea is incredibly modest when it comes to showing what he can do beyond the dojo. I can tell you that he is teaching Kempo, according to the way the old texts show it.
He tells us that Kempo in its original form also incorporated grappling, and can demonstrate this from kata. our school is very traditional, we maintain all facets of dojo ettiquette, and Senseii is very strict when it comes to enforcing it.
As I say though, I can't really show you anything. Even when he was contacted by a local MA magazine, he told them that they would be better off interviewing his students rather than himself. His words were something along the lines of, "It would be boring to interview me, as I have no original thoughts of my own, when it comes to martial arts. Everything I say or do has been said or done before."
Of course I am paraphrasing, but you get the point, right?

I can tell you that when we train in the grappling side of things, we will do so many basics you think you're going to break before you get any 'real' stuff in. We spent 2 hours one night, doing break falls.

We were seperated into 4 groups, one group to a corner of the room. The lights went out, the strobe went on, the music went loud(like a night club), and we had kick shields piled up, abot 3 Ft. high, in the middle of the room.
He blew his whistle(the only way he could be heard over the music), and we ran full pelt in an "X" pattern, and did the old diving break falls over the pads. Man, talk about adrenal stress!!
This is just one of many things we have done in class, if you want to know more, you'll just have to come visit.

--Dave

:asian:

You're instructor sounds like my brother in law except we only turned the lights out when we meditated ( he wanted to see who would fall asleep, and I did).

In a way I do teach like him, I break things down quite a bit but I do it kind of in reverse to the way he did it. Instead of breaking it down to death. I teach my guys all the same at first. Then I take them break everything down in detail. An example is I teach Jun Fans version of Chi Sao. I teach it two ways, the Macias Method I was originally taught and I teach it the similar to Wing Chun.

After they start to catch on to the Chi Sao, I break it down into single or double techniques and throw in many new strikes. After they get good at that, then they are ready to learn the clinch.:asian:

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Ability over paper ANYDAY. Seems those who disagree don't have much realworld ability but lots of lineage. Lineage won't help you in a dark parking lot...realworld experience will.

snip

You wanna get down to brass tacs...you whine about lineage and wall candy and crediblility and down play the realworld ability. Real world ability is not only the main thing Robert it is the ONLY main thing. Let me repeat that again in case you missed it the first time...Real world ability is not only the main thing Robert it is the ONLY main thing. Lineage is fine, wall candy is fine, perfect kata is fine, drills are fine, oriental organizations are fine...but unless you've used it in combat to protect yourself or another....its only a hobby. That includes instructors who have never actually been in harms way. Oh, yeah they can teach...from others experiences...but not their OWN experiences.

snip

So Robert, I don't care about my wall candy...nobody else here cares about my wall candy...why are you so obsessed with it?

I have to admit to being a little confused by the attitude you state above, and this quote I found on your web site,


He is recognized as the Founder of the American Realistic Karate/Close Quarter Defensive Tactics system with the title of Senior Master Instructor.

This recognition comes from the USADR, KYHA, USAI, AKOI, WOMA, IMAF, ICMAUF, WAKO, IIORK, WGKF, MAA-I and WHOS after extensive critique and peer review from recognized Grandmasters and Sokes from around the world.

So, you state the groups you beloing to as some sort of qualifier on your web site, but here you seem to be saying that none of that matters???

This is not to mention that at least one of the orginizations listed on your web site do not exist anymore- which shows that they themselves are hardly very reliable sources for the "extensive critique and peer review" you claim.

I am also rather mystified by this quote,


Originally posted by A.R.K. I could see you having a complaint if every other post from me was 'oh I'm so great cause I'm an 8th Dan'...'Everyone bow to me cause I'm an 8th Dan'...'oh, it's been 5 minutes...did I mention I'm an 8th Dan' or if I had a string of mcdojos and no experienc and I was scamming people and laughing all the way to the bank. but your the only one going on about it. Hardly ANYONE here would even know my ranks if you weren't whining about them. I don't have it in my profile...I don't have it on my website....I keep all my wall candy in a box in my closet...


As I said, I looked at your web site and found references to the fact that you are an eight dan. Anyone who wishes to can check your web site for themselves and see if it is still there. Check here to see. (http://cqdt9d1.freeservers.com/custom3.html) But as I post, your web site's section on the orginization you created makes this mention of your eighth dan.


Grandmaster-Founder David Schultz, Ph.D.
A.R.K./CQDT Senior Master Instructor
8th Dan Pangai-noon
Honorary7th Dan Agni Kempo
5th Dan Shuri Te

And yet in the quote above you claim that you do not talk about it and do not even list it on your web site. Can you imagine how confused I am by how I can see you say you do not list your ranks or "wall candy", only to find out that is not the case with my own eyes????

[RyuShiKan]

Folks this thread has NEVER been about ZDW, a.k.a. MRJ, a.k.a. ARK, a.k.a. Dave Schultz.
This thread was meant for bogus claims in GENERAL and nobody specifically.
So let’s keep the subject matter general instead of person/people specific. The ZDW, a.k.a. MRJ, a.k.a. ARK, a.k.a. Dave Schultz issue is a dead issue. It has gone and will continue to go nowhere.


Originally posted by A.R.K.
You know Robert, if you and I can put away the sabers long enough we might actually find that we don't poise a threat to each other.

I have never have nor will I ever consider you any sort of "threat".

[RyuShiKan]

Don,

One thing you will notice is that bogus claims can be easily taken off websites and often are when proven to be fraudulent.
Case in point:
2 years ago I noticed a website that had my friends photo on it (Jake from the NFL, long time Tokyo resident....maybe you have heard of him.). The website I saw had my friend Jake in a group photo and the caption read “A group photo at XXXX dojo after extensive training”.
I showed my friend Jake the URL and he said that guy was lying, and that the owner of that site had only trained 1 day at the dojo and then hounded the teacher for dan rank but was denied.
I asked the owner of the site about it and he said he in fact had done extensive training and was a senior member in that dojo blah, blah, blah.
Jake informed me that person was lying and the Jake had translated from J/E & E/J during the whole training session and the subsequent faxes “begging” for dan rank afterwards.
Long story short……….I put what I had found on E-Budo and this guy was into some really bogus stuff and claimed 5th dan or above in about every rank known to man.
Anyway, after a few emails made by myself and a few others the reference to “extensive training” was removed.

Bogus is as bogus does.
Forrest Gump?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Yeah, you must have LOADS of money to bribe an organization in Japan. It's not so simple...


Heck no……..the Kokusai Budoin (International Budo Federation) is one of the most infamous. I think you can get hooked up for about $200~$300 bucks.

The thing is most MA people in Japan with more than one brain cell can recognize these as total bogus.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Don Roley
I have to admit to being a little confused by the attitude you state above, and this quote I found on your web site,



So, you state the groups you beloing to as some sort of qualifier on your web site, but here you seem to be saying that none of that matters???

This is not to mention that at least one of the orginizations listed on your web site do not exist anymore- which shows that they themselves are hardly very reliable sources for the "extensive critique and peer review" you claim.

I am also rather mystified by this quote,



As I said, I looked at your web site and found references to the fact that you are an eight dan. Anyone who wishes to can check your web site for themselves and see if it is still there. Check here to see. (http://cqdt9d1.freeservers.com/custom3.html) But as I post, your web site's section on the orginization you created makes this mention of your eighth dan.



And yet in the quote above you claim that you do not talk about it and do not even list it on your web site. Can you imagine how confused I am by how I can see you say you do not list your ranks or "wall candy", only to find out that is not the case with my own eyes????


Don,

Call me a skeptical S.O.B. but I question a lot of stuff I read on the Internet……..even people’s names. In fact I think we had one such problem here before.
About the only thing or people I can actually verify they are who they say from this BBs is Yiliquan1 and you since I have met both of you. BTW, when is the next "chubliner's" meeting?

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
BTW, when is the next "chubliner's" meeting?

Whenever my beloved dictator Tony says it is, I will try to be there. Barring, of course, the wrath of "The mountain god." (Yama no Kami no ikari. ) If that reference is beyond you, ask an older Japanese. :D

[DAC..florida]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chufeng
[B]DAC,

See the horse?

Run horse, run.

See the horse fall?

Get up horse, get up!

See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.

See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?

Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!

But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...


I'm not the one who started this thread and I was only giving my opinion wich I believe I'm still entitled to, Maybe I should do what everyone else does and not even stick to the topic.

I'm not refering back to past battles I'm just giving my opinion on this thread topic.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Heck no……..the Kokusai Budoin (International Budo Federation) is one of the most infamous. I think you can get hooked up for about $200~$300 bucks.

The thing is most MA people in Japan with more than one brain cell can recognize these as total bogus.
Let me clarify... The REAL organization, the standard.

If someone walks in to Kukkiwon, asking for dan rank, everyone will die of laughter.

[SteelShadow]

What is the point of disscuions like this?I can understand disaproving with someone or being sceptical about them.Heck i can even understand down right disagreeing with someone.
But what is the point to going over and over it.I mean in reality yes you get to exspress your oppion and yes you might even exspose someone or at least make them look bad.But if they have thier heart set on teaching or claiming something this board or any other isnt going to cahnge that.
If you disagree thats fine state you do and move on Why dwell on it for post or thread after thread.Not only does it get old it after awhile your once substantiated oppion just beggins to look like a grudge or someone just trying to degrade another person.There are those that simply enjoy degrading or trying to make others look bad.And there are those that realy are just passionate about what they know or believe.But theres a fine line between the two that if not approached carefully cant be seen wich side a person stands on.Of course exspress you ditrust or disagreement with someone thats what these boards are for but dont let it draw you to the point where you beggin to look arogant or self appealing by discrediting everything someone says on the net.
Ther is such a thing as being to susppcious.
If you have questions by all means ask.That is your right but understand it is also the person being questioneds right to not answer.Does that make it right maybe not but just because someone is asked dosnt mean they have to answer.
I guess all im saying is other than enjoyment of persecution or just wanting to make yourself look like some all knowing scholar.
What point is there to dragging something along after you have posted your oppion or your disaprovment.If they didnt answer them in a satisfying way the first time chances are they arnt going to.Because after the initial posts you automaticaly start looking for other things to disagree with its human nature if you dont like something or disagree with something you automaticaly look for flaws .Post your oppion wether good or bad ask the questions you need to ask but it is pointless to borrow a phrase from another thread to beat a dead horse.And the jokey that does only comes off looking like a Brute.....
Just my thoughts.......

[arnisador]

Thanks to all those who have endeavoured to keep this discussion general rather than about specific individuals. Everyone, please keep to that in this thread and take individual matters to e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chufeng
[B]DAC,

See the horse?

Run horse, run.

See the horse fall?

Get up horse, get up!

See the people crying? Poor horse...dead horse.

See the idiot with a stick beating the horse?

Stop! The horse is dead...Stop!!!

But the idiot has no ears...the horse will be beaten until someone grabs the bad boy with the stick by the scruff of his neck...


I'm not the one who started this thread and I was only giving my opinion wich I believe I'm still entitled to, Maybe I should do what everyone else does and not even stick to the topic.

I'm not refering back to past battles I'm just giving my opinion on this thread topic.


You have quoted Chufeng from a thread which involved your teacher that has been closed if I am not mistaken. As has been said several times this thread is not on anyone specific but a GENERAL perspective.
So far most have caught on to that concept.

[chufeng]

Actually, it was on page three of this thread...
After rereading DAC's post (the one that I responded to, initially) I may have misunderstood his intent...
I thought he was going for another personal attack...but now that he's responded, I can see where he was headed with it.

My intent was to head off another rehash of the ZDW story...that truly is a dead horse...

Most of the comments made, so far, have been general in nature.
The few comments that are specific have at least not spun out of control...

I think it is up to the one making claims, though, to provide proof of the claim...as Forrest Gump would say, "...and that's all I'm gonna say about that."

:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
Actually, it was on page three of this thread...


Thanks for the correction.
To be honest I have read so much of “that” topic over the last couple of weeks I can’t remember which thread is which anymore.



Originally posted by chufeng

I think it is up to the one making claims, though, to provide proof of the claim...as Forrest Gump would say, "...and that's all I'm gonna say about that."

:asian:
chufeng


I agree.

[Touch Of Death]

:soapbox: Mr Tanaka,
I believe the word is piqued.

[DAC..florida]

I have still not seen any proof of how you could ever prove anything over the internet.


EXAMPLE: If I claimed to be a 10th dan in Kung Fu, how could I prove it.

I could attach copies of certificates, but how could I prove that they were legit.

I could post the name of my instructor and how people in doubt could reach him, but that would flood my instructor with many inquires and possibly offend him because he would then be asked who his instructor is ect.

I could also post all organizations of wich I belonged, but most people have already determined that belonging to an org. does'nt mean your legit as most dont test for the rank that your being recognized at.


My answer to this question is that I dont care what anyone beleives or thinks about me as long as my students are satisfied with my abilities to teach and my skills. I only have to answer to one human and that is me, and sometimes my wife but thats it.

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I have still not seen any proof of how you could ever prove anything over the internet.

For that matter, given the arguments you and others have advanced, there will never be a sufficient level of documentation in real life, much less via the internet.

At some point, you absolutely must break down and assume that some source at some point is authoritative.

The argument, as I have seen it to be, is less accepting a particular form of proof as finally authoritative than it is supporting and substantiating claims of rank(s) claimed.


EXAMPLE: If I claimed to be a 10th dan in Kung Fu, how could I prove it.

You claim 10th dan in kung fu. First of all, that would send up red flags, since CMA don't use "dan/kyu" gradings... But, taking your example in the spirit I think you meant it, how do you prove it?

If you claim such a lofty grade in a well known style, then checking with the organization(s) that govern that style would be the first step. If you did not belong to those organizations (for whatever reason - I'm not going to argue the validity of a person promoting you outside the auspices of organizational authorization; that is an entirely separate argument dealing with the legitimacy of a teacher's right and ability to teach), then going to the person who promoted you would be the next step. Worrying about "offending" them would be a terribly convenient excuse for not providing their names... Somehow, I suspect that if a teacher's student's credibility were questioned, that teacher would want to support that student by providing whatever substantiation was required. When a teacher starts trying to become "Uber-Asian," as many non-Asians try to do when they buy into their own hype as so-called "masters," and says he/she would be "offended" by supporting your credibility, I would start calling into question the credibility of that teacher! It is one thing to avoid the spotlight, another thing to scurry back into the shadows like a cockroach...


I could attach copies of certificates, but how could I prove that they were legit.

There seems to be the potential for a semantic argument here. Legitimate and authentic are two different things. I could produce, in correct Chinese characters, a document proclaiming my status as Master of Time, Space and Dimension. I could even produce a stamp (hanko, not sure of the Chinese term for it) that would appear authentic. But this document, for its authentic appearance, would not be legitimate. Likewise, I have seen some legitimate certificates that looked a little too mass produced, initially calling into question its authenticity.

How could you prove documents to be legitimate? The same way you would check into things as I listed above. The same people would be called or contacted. If they were unable to be contacted for whatever reason, checking the linguistic reliability of the certificate would lend an air of legitimacy to the document. If the document appears to be an original, with original handwriting on it, then it would for all intents and purposes appear to be legitimate... This is when the suspension of disbelief must come into play - at some point you have to trust the source.


I could post the name of my instructor and how people in doubt could reach him, but that would flood my instructor with many inquires and possibly offend him because he would then be asked who his instructor is ect.

See my above comments about Uber-Asian teachers... If we are approaching this entire subject professionally, we must ask ourselves at what point we dispose of antiquated cultural baggage (i.e. "offending" a teacher, asking "permission" to give his/her name, etc.) in order to support the overall legitimacy of the MA community at large. In older times, such things were common but culturally linked. We are in a cross-cultural society where in any given MA school, you can find people of all races, religions, national origins, religious backgrounds, etc. We are no longer operating within the confines of cultural taboos which limit who is taught what by whom. We cannot pick and choose what rules we live and train by - if we demand that someone provide proof, or we make claims that may be questioned, then we must be prepared to provide proof ourselves and question others. In this way, we all police our own backgrounds as well as existing in a group where ones background could be queried at any time. Failing to provide proof that is universally accepted would result in immediate perception as holding questionable credentials.

If this were any other profession governed by requirements for certification and training that has a direct impact on public safety (i.e. doctors, attorneys, policemen, firemen, EMTs, nurses, etc.), we wouldn't even be having this conversation...


I could also post all organizations of wich I belonged, but most people have already determined that belonging to an org. does'nt mean your legit as most dont test for the rank that your being recognized at.

If you claim a 10th dan in Black Tiger Kung Fu, and I go to one of the 304,000 organizations that teach it, and I am able to show that you do in fact practice such an art, and your background in training and ranking can be verified through one of those 304,000 organizations, then you are what you claim. If you claim a lofty grade in a well known and widely practiced art, but don't belong to an organization, and are able to provide documentation (verbal or otherwise) of training and grading, no problem. Some folks don't like organizations. Fine.

As for "most don't test for the rank that you are being recognized at" I am unclear on the meaning of your response. An organization that maintains the standards of its students by imposing grading requirements and standards of performance that must be met prior to the issuance of grading would therefore issue ranks in its own style. Organizations that recognize you as a particular grade in a style you have never trained in should be avoided like the plague. They diminish us all when those within our ranks accepts such empty titles and grades. Honorary grades are given as a token of gratitude for some deed. Fine. But "recognizing" me as a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep when I have only ever studied Yiliiquan, but because you think my skill is equivalent to that of a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep, is total crap. Trying to pass such "recognitions" off as legitimate is nothing more than fraud aimed at taking advantage of an unsuspecting and ignorant public... :rolleyes:


My answer to this question is that I dont care what anyone beleives or thinks about me as long as my students are satisfied with my abilities to teach and my skills. I only have to answer to one human and that is me, and sometimes my wife but thats it.

In a perfect world, that should be enough. It is for me, as well. The students I have had were instructed not to refer to me in any honorific form, bereft of the use of any martial titles. I earned their respect as a person, then a martial artist, and later as a teacher, and they called me the things they called me based on that alone, not on my lineage or documentation. However, we live in a smaller world than we once did, and in order to protect ourselves, our students, and the public at large, we need to be able to do more than be satisfied with our perfect little backyard dojos...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I could post the name of my instructor and how people in doubt could reach him, but that would flood my instructor with many inquires and possibly offend him because he would then be asked who his instructor is ect.

As I said before, if you do not wish to have your teacher bothered, you should not put him in a position where he could be bothered by claiming a rank or association. Once you do, the matter of proof comes up and you either back up your claims, or you refuse and everyone starts to laugh at you.

You solve the entire matter by truely trying to stand on your own abilities, rather than claiming rank or something and when asked for proof start making excuses as to why you do not have to because "only ability matters." Well, if that is so, why bother mentioning anything like rank, associations, years in training, etc in the first place? This type of behavior does give other people the chance to laugh at the people making excuses, but it really is kind of pitiful to see.

Again, if you do not want to go to the trouble of having to prove something, don't put yourself in a postion where you will be asked for proof by making claims. You may note that some people never mention their rank, who they trained under, or how long they have trained. They either do not want to try to impress others, or feel that their words alone carry the wisdom that others can see instead of relying on "wall candy" for the same effect.

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
....I have still not seen any proof of how you could ever prove anything over the internet....


If you belong to some bogus organizations that your drinking buddies made up, then it is all a farce.

If you belong to recognized organizations such as Kukkiwon or JKA or ITF, for examples, then post your certificate number, and someone can call the HQ where the HQ staffs can verify if you are what you claim to be.

I am surprised that your 8th dan master does not know this. Such a high degree is normally awarded to people who are elderstatesmen of the art. There are millions of whitebelt nobodies who are well aware of this minor detail. You would think that someone with an 8th dan would have KNOWN this tiny bit of administrative detail.

[A.R.K.]

Well I found a brief opportunity to pop in on my day off. :)

I would simply say this, I no longer teach a specific style/system originating from somewhere else. Haven't for quite some time as I have focused my energy on developing my system based on my total knowlegde, experience and real world altercations.

I have listed the associations that I fellowship with, anyone may feel free to contact the organization head in regards to their opinion of me. Anyone is welcome to contact FDLE or my agency in regards to my status, reputation, knowledge, ability etc. There is no óne'report number as I have been involved in numerous altecations. No becuase I look for trouble, quite the opposite actually...I don't like to fight. But for 12 years I have worked in the very worse places in our maximum security facility...as have many others. sometimes things happen beyond our control. But all are public record for any who would like to know specific details. I would prefer to be known fo the times where I was able to avoid using force.

Many seem satisfied with my credential, background and the way in general I post. Anyone needing further confirmation may contact any that they wish. If they are satisfied at this point then wonderful. If not, they may consider me as they wish. No one can satisfy everyone all the time. Either way, the only real thinng is whether or not I'm qualified to teach. Only personal knoweldge or firsthand conversation with my students will ultimately answer that. Most know that I, for the most part, teach for free. And my assistants do teach out of desire rather than for $ compensation. We have survived many realworld altercations as have our students based on what we've taught them. To me that is the real test. That is my humble opinion. As Chufeng mentioned earlier...at some point trust needs to enter in. Either I have earned it or I have not base on who is asked.

I take Robert at his word as I believe his word is solid. Sice this issue was originally between us, it should rest with us. Anyone else, on either side, should let it rest as well and it seems most have. That way we can all post on other topics and perhaps benefit from each other's words.

In my opinion...everyone here has offered much. And I look forward to that continuing unhindered.

Peace to us all
:asian:

[KennethKu]

This is not between YOU and RyuShiKan. This is between all of us and PEOPLE who make unsubstantiated claims on the internet.

Please do not bring up your credential and organizations you belong to or don't belong to. Most of us are tired of beating on the dead horse and dancing in circle. No, we are not satisfied with your answers nor explainations. We just DON"T GIVE A RAT ASS anymore. We have a rather clear idea already. And many of us have already spelled it out, loud and clear. If you want to move on, then please don't bring up the cow chips again and again trying to make a banquet out of them. Since you have repeatedly claim that you don't care what people think of your qualification and that you can never convince people who don't think much of you, then would you please heed your own words and stop trying? May be then, we can all move on.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Anyone else, on either side, should let it rest as well and it seems most have.

Uuuuh, most of us have forgotten about you, however, you and DAC keep popping in with your comments relating back to all of it claiming you don’t care what others think.:rolleyes:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Uuuuh, most of us have forgotten about you, however, you and DAC keep popping in with your comments relating back to all of it claiming you don’t care what others think.:rolleyes:
most of the time, I couldn't keep up with the names

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
most of the time, I couldn't keep up with the names

Maybe we need to issue a set of playing cards like they have for the ex-Iraqi leaders.;)

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
For that matter, given the arguments you and others have advanced, there will never be a sufficient level of documentation in real life, much less via the internet.

At some point, you absolutely must break down and assume that some source at some point is authoritative.

The argument, as I have seen it to be, is less accepting a particular form of proof as finally authoritative than it is supporting and substantiating claims of rank(s) claimed.



You claim 10th dan in kung fu. First of all, that would send up red flags, since CMA don't use "dan/kyu" gradings... But, taking your example in the spirit I think you meant it, how do you prove it?

If you claim such a lofty grade in a well known style, then checking with the organization(s) that govern that style would be the first step. If you did not belong to those organizations (for whatever reason - I'm not going to argue the validity of a person promoting you outside the auspices of organizational authorization; that is an entirely separate argument dealing with the legitimacy of a teacher's right and ability to teach), then going to the person who promoted you would be the next step. Worrying about "offending" them would be a terribly convenient excuse for not providing their names... Somehow, I suspect that if a teacher's student's credibility were questioned, that teacher would want to support that student by providing whatever substantiation was required. When a teacher starts trying to become "Uber-Asian," as many non-Asians try to do when they buy into their own hype as so-called "masters," and says he/she would be "offended" by supporting your credibility, I would start calling into question the credibility of that teacher! It is one thing to avoid the spotlight, another thing to scurry back into the shadows like a cockroach...



There seems to be the potential for a semantic argument here. Legitimate and authentic are two different things. I could produce, in correct Chinese characters, a document proclaiming my status as Master of Time, Space and Dimension. I could even produce a stamp (hanko, not sure of the Chinese term for it) that would appear authentic. But this document, for its authentic appearance, would not be legitimate. Likewise, I have seen some legitimate certificates that looked a little too mass produced, initially calling into question its authenticity.

How could you prove documents to be legitimate? The same way you would check into things as I listed above. The same people would be called or contacted. If they were unable to be contacted for whatever reason, checking the linguistic reliability of the certificate would lend an air of legitimacy to the document. If the document appears to be an original, with original handwriting on it, then it would for all intents and purposes appear to be legitimate... This is when the suspension of disbelief must come into play - at some point you have to trust the source.



See my above comments about Uber-Asian teachers... If we are approaching this entire subject professionally, we must ask ourselves at what point we dispose of antiquated cultural baggage (i.e. "offending" a teacher, asking "permission" to give his/her name, etc.) in order to support the overall legitimacy of the MA community at large. In older times, such things were common but culturally linked. We are in a cross-cultural society where in any given MA school, you can find people of all races, religions, national origins, religious backgrounds, etc. We are no longer operating within the confines of cultural taboos which limit who is taught what by whom. We cannot pick and choose what rules we live and train by - if we demand that someone provide proof, or we make claims that may be questioned, then we must be prepared to provide proof ourselves and question others. In this way, we all police our own backgrounds as well as existing in a group where ones background could be queried at any time. Failing to provide proof that is universally accepted would result in immediate perception as holding questionable credentials.

If this were any other profession governed by requirements for certification and training that has a direct impact on public safety (i.e. doctors, attorneys, policemen, firemen, EMTs, nurses, etc.), we wouldn't even be having this conversation...



If you claim a 10th dan in Black Tiger Kung Fu, and I go to one of the 304,000 organizations that teach it, and I am able to show that you do in fact practice such an art, and your background in training and ranking can be verified through one of those 304,000 organizations, then you are what you claim. If you claim a lofty grade in a well known and widely practiced art, but don't belong to an organization, and are able to provide documentation (verbal or otherwise) of training and grading, no problem. Some folks don't like organizations. Fine.

As for "most don't test for the rank that you are being recognized at" I am unclear on the meaning of your response. An organization that maintains the standards of its students by imposing grading requirements and standards of performance that must be met prior to the issuance of grading would therefore issue ranks in its own style. Organizations that recognize you as a particular grade in a style you have never trained in should be avoided like the plague. They diminish us all when those within our ranks accepts such empty titles and grades. Honorary grades are given as a token of gratitude for some deed. Fine. But "recognizing" me as a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep when I have only ever studied Yiliiquan, but because you think my skill is equivalent to that of a 12th degree hidden master of Tae Kwon Leep, is total crap. Trying to pass such "recognitions" off as legitimate is nothing more than fraud aimed at taking advantage of an unsuspecting and ignorant public... :rolleyes:



In a perfect world, that should be enough. It is for me, as well. The students I have had were instructed not to refer to me in any honorific form, bereft of the use of any martial titles. I earned their respect as a person, then a martial artist, and later as a teacher, and they called me the things they called me based on that alone, not on my lineage or documentation. However, we live in a smaller world than we once did, and in order to protect ourselves, our students, and the public at large, we need to be able to do more than be satisfied with our perfect little backyard dojos...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


Why dont you tell us how you really feel?:D

I'm not saying it is impossible but you cant prove somthing to someone who refuses to believe you, If I did have a 10th degree black belt no matter how I tried to prove it to some there would always be faults in my proof thats my point, and if you knew that this was thier attitude than why even bother.

Your points above were well said and I respect your opinions however as I mentioned above trying to prove you rank, abillity,credentials,credabillity or teaching skills to someone who has never met you and wont believe you no matter what is said is a waste of time.

As you and anyone else here who has looked at my profile knows I have posted no rank, nor will I because I do not feel it is necessary to do so in order to participate in this forum!

:asian:

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Don Roley
As I said before, if you do not wish to have your teacher bothered, you should not put him in a position where he could be bothered by claiming a rank or association. Once you do, the matter of proof comes up and you either back up your claims, or you refuse and everyone starts to laugh at you.

You solve the entire matter by truely trying to stand on your own abilities, rather than claiming rank or something and when asked for proof start making excuses as to why you do not have to because "only ability matters." Well, if that is so, why bother mentioning anything like rank, associations, years in training, etc in the first place? This type of behavior does give other people the chance to laugh at the people making excuses, but it really is kind of pitiful to see.

Again, if you do not want to go to the trouble of having to prove something, don't put yourself in a postion where you will be asked for proof by making claims. You may note that some people never mention their rank, who they trained under, or how long they have trained. They either do not want to try to impress others, or feel that their words alone carry the wisdom that others can see instead of relying on "wall candy" for the same effect.


I have never claimed any rank in this forum!

I think your missing my point, If I did and even gave the proof, to some people that wouldnt be good enough. so why even bother giving the proof to begin with.

I do agree that if you claim nothing you would never be challenged, there are a few people that have made claims that I thought were questionable, but I dont see the need to challenge them its not hurting me and most claims would be hard to prove or disprove so why even bother. I wont judge a persons claims or abillitys without having met them or at least knowing someone who has met them( just me i guess ).

:asian:

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by KennethKu
This is not between YOU and RyuShiKan. This is between all of us and PEOPLE who make unsubstantiated claims on the internet.

Please do not bring up your credential and organizations you belong to or don't belong to. Most of us are tired of beating on the dead horse and dancing in circle. No, we are not satisfied with your answers nor explainations. We just DON"T GIVE A RAT ASS anymore. We have a rather clear idea already. And many of us have already spelled it out, loud and clear. If you want to move on, then please don't bring up the cow chips again and again trying to make a banquet out of them. Since you have repeatedly claim that you don't care what people think of your qualification and that you can never convince people who don't think much of you, then would you please heed your own words and stop trying? May be then, we can all move on.


If you want to move on than do it stop posting on this subject, there was no reson for this above quote for someone who wants to move on!

As far as what my instructor knows or doesnt know isnt the issue, you to have ignored my point. (maybe your ego got in the way not sure but let me clarify it for you AGAIN) If I were to claim high rank in any style it wouldnt matter what I post certain people would chose not to beleive me, cant please everyone I guess. My instructor David Schultz (A.R.K.) has already posted proof but I guess the DONG KOO YUDO KWON doesnt count because its not in Okinawa. I wonder if anyone even bothered to check it out or if they just ignored it and continued to bash.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Uuuuh, most of us have forgotten about you, however, you and DAC keep popping in with your comments relating back to all of it claiming you don’t care what others think.:rolleyes:



RSK,

I am only playing defence I am not the who continues this issue!
Maybe I should take my instructors advise and ignore the children but its so much fun to watch them make themselves look so foolish, so I think I'll continue to play the defence.


I have a question for you, what did all of you do before A.R.K. joined whatever it was it must have been boring.:o :rofl: :rofl:




LMAO,

dac..florida

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I have a question for you, what did all of you do before A.R.K. joined whatever it was it must have been boring.:o :rofl: :rofl:

If you are playing "defense," then there is no need to bait anyone, is there...?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
If you are playing "defense," then there is no need to bait anyone, is there...?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I am honestly not trying to insult or bait anyone just trying to find the humor in the scituation.:asian:

I'm sorry if you didnt find it funny.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Matt Stone]

Nope, not funny. It appeared to be nothing more than a lightly veiled attempt at baiting RyuShiKan and others to engage in more argument over dead issues.

If you are playing "defense," then stick to reacting to the actions of others when they "attack" you or your teacher. For the rest of the time, I'd recommend staying far away from anything that could be implied to be remotely close to smelling like it deals with that other thread... That way it can die out and we can all move on.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Nope, not funny. It appeared to be nothing more than a lightly veiled attempt at baiting RyuShiKan and others to engage in more argument over dead issues.

If you are playing "defense," then stick to reacting to the actions of others when they "attack" you or your teacher. For the rest of the time, I'd recommend staying far away from anything that could be implied to be remotely close to smelling like it deals with that other thread... That way it can die out and we can all move on.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


I'm sorry you misunderstood my meaning maybe it did come off wrong.

I will however take your advise due to the fact that I to would like to move on!!
:asian:

[chufeng]

Dead frickin' horse...

...strange sense of humor...I did not see anything funny...
If your teacher thinks we are children, then your post is even LESS funny...

out

chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Nope, not funny. It appeared to be nothing more than a lightly veiled attempt at baiting RyuShiKan and others to engage in more argument over dead issues.



Have no fear…….I smelled the “bait” and it was about as pungent as that dead horse that has been lying around here. I also found his “wit” to be about as sharp as a basketball.

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I have never claimed any rank in this forum!

I think your missing my point, If I did and even gave the proof, to some people that wouldnt be good enough. so why even bother giving the proof to begin with.

Well, your teacher did claim rank and the last time I checked his web site, (by clicking on the "WWW" button on your posts) those claims were still there along with those of his senior students.

And the aurgument you use, about how some people will never accept proof, so why bother give it to anyone kind of sets of alarms in my mind. As I said before, there are some people that will look at proof and still deny it. You are not trying to prove things to those people. You are trying to prove things to people who are not involved so they can check for themselves.

If someone makes a claim, and another person states that the proof is untrue, then from an observers standpoint it is hard to tell who is telling the truth. But if they can look up the proof themselves, then they know who to believe. However, when a person makes claims about having rank, and then refuses to back up that story, the person like me who has no stake in the matter naturally assumes that the person trying to make the claims is an incompetent fraud. Especially after making a claim that is proven false they then start to say that the claim was not important anyways.

[KennethKu]

Of course, one does not have to give proof. The only consequence is, NO ONE BELIEVES ANY OF YOUR CRAP. So, if you don't feel like giving proof, fine with us. That just tells us ALL WE NEED TO KNOW. Quite simple, wouldn't you say?

[RyuShiKan]

The following are some photos of how to spot fake dan certificates from real ones.


Notice the 2 types of “hanko”. The real one is more elaborate and therefore more difficult for scumbags to forge…….the fake one I can buy at almost any stationary shop in Japan and has been mass produced by the 1,000s.

[RyuShiKan]

Next, dan certificates from shodan up are never done on a word processor…...as this one is...…kyu ranks are sometimes mass produced but not dan ranks. They are hand written by the instructor.
(Note the poor hand writing for the dan grade and rank. )

[RyuShiKan]

If anyone has any certificates……theirs or other peoples that they would like me to look at you can post them here or send them to me privately. Privacy will be respected.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I have never claimed any rank in this forum!


Although you didn't post it here on this BBs isn’t this your bio from “Grandmaster” Schultz website?

“Master David Craine
Board of Directors International League of Martial Arts Masters
Vice President Gulf Coast Martial Artists Guild
A.R.K./CQDT Master Instructor
6th Dan Tae Kwon Do”


and with this caption under the photo.

GM Schultz inducting Master Craine into the League

[RyuShiKan]

.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
If you want to move on than do it stop posting on this subject, there was no reson for this above quote for someone who wants to move on!

As far as what my instructor knows or doesnt know isnt the issue, you to have ignored my point. (maybe your ego got in the way not sure but let me clarify it for you AGAIN) If I were to claim high rank in any style it wouldnt matter what I post certain people would chose not to beleive me, cant please everyone I guess. My instructor David Schultz (A.R.K.) has already posted proof but I guess the DONG KOO YUDO KWON doesnt count because its not in Okinawa. I wonder if anyone even bothered to check it out or if they just ignored it and continued to bash.
Dong Koo Yudo Kwon... I have never heard of this organization. I'm Korean, and the words do sound Korean, although they really don't make sense in how they are used, but maybe it's just a name for their organization or archaic (before 1600s)?

I really have no clue on your organization. I'm confused, care to enlighten me? The name Zhao Dei Whei or whatever in the beginning, sounded Mandarin or Catonese. Then mya ryu jitsu is obviously Japanese. Then you have some remote Korean organization promoting it? Can anyone clarify for me what this is?

[RyuShiKan]

MartialArtist,

You are Korean?
anyohashimunika
(romanized Korean)


Originally posted by MartialArtist
The name Zhao Dei Whei or whatever in the beginning, sounded Mandarin or Catonese.

That was Dave Shultz’s name “Chinese-efied” into what would seemed to have been Mandarin.




Originally posted by MartialArtist
Then mya ryu jitsu is obviously Japanese.

Actually it’s not.
It’s a couple of “Japanese-esque” words stuck together that mean nothing.

[MartialArtist]

I have another question...

I remember something in the past where Mr. Schultz said he was not really interested in the Korean arts, he was having a great time with what he already does and I totally understand that. But then why are you a representative of the organization? I went to your website, and ARK is your own special blend of close quarters combat karate, am I right? Well, shouldn't you belong to an organization that kinda pertains to that instead of the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization? And in Korea, there is no such thing as the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization. There might be some people in Korea that belong to the organization, but it is not based out of Korea, yet it calls itself the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization. Actually, according to its website, it is located in Florida by a guy of Jack Stern. And why does he use a Japanese term, and some washed out non-Korean characters as his head?
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kyha/KYHALogo.gif
I understand that yudo is judo which is Japanese, but it calls itself the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization. Yudo, although a Japanese art, is a Korean term. Hapkido is a Korean art. There is "Korean" in the title. Yet nothing there is remotely Korean. The logo does look like a that of an ITF patch that I've seen. The only thing Korean I've seen is the whole paragraph right under his logo on his dobuk, which is too small to read but obviously Korean. And, what it looks like to be a WTF patch, but too distant to see.

I think the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization would do better if it renamed it to a name that suited the organization better. Obviously, Stern has very little yudo and hapkido experience, even on his website, but does seem to have more Japanese references. Just a suggestion.

[Matt Stone]

I did a search on Google for Dong Koo Yudo Kwon.

Nothing.

I did another search on Google for Dong Koo Yudo Kwan.

Nearly nothing.

All that came up were hits for that title used in the biographies of tons of folks who are also members of Soke or Grandmaster organizations, and who all seem to possess multiple high grade rankings...

It is based in South Korea, and seems (at first glance) to be less than reputable...

This is an example of the bios I found:

Doctor of Martial Science

American College of Martial Science of The University of Indiana, Ph.D (honorary)-Martial Arts Philosophy.

Lifetime Member, International Combat Martial Arts Doctors and Scientists Union ICMAUA

Registered TKD Dan Holder with the Kukkiwon-Seoul, Korea

8th Dan Recognition & Registration, World Soke Head Council Headquarters, Kobe, Japan

8th Dan Dong-Koo Yudo Kwan, (KYA) - Seoul, Korea

8th Dan Ildokwan, World Ildokwan Federation-UK

8th Dan Taekwondo, Independedent Martial Arts Federation-USA (IMAF)

8th Dan Taekwondo, White Dragon Federation-Denmark

8th Dan Founder of Taeken-Jitsu, World Jug-Tai Head Founders Society- Arta, Greece

8th Dan Taeken-Jitsu, Drougas World Traditional Martial Arts-Greece

8th Dan Founder of Taeken-Jitsu, International Assembly of Sokeship, Founders & Headmasters

8th Dan Taeken-Jitsu, Founder, Head Instructor, Head Examiner, International Combat Martial Arts Founders Union ICMAUA

8th Dan Sung Ja Do (honorary), International Sung Ja Do Assn.-USA

8th Dan Taekwondo, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Taekwondo Union ICMAUA

8th Dan Ildokwan, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Taekwondo Union ICMAUA

8th Dan Ildokwan, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Korean Martial Arts Union ICMAUA

8th Dan Dong-Koo Yudo Kwan, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Korean Martial Arts Union ICMAUA

7th Dan Karate-Do (honorary), United Martial Arts Federation.

7th Dan Karate-Do, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Karate Do Union ICMAUA.

4th Dan Jiu-Jitsu, The Black Arts Society (Canada) & IMAF

4th Dan Unarmed Military Combat, The Black Arts Society (Canada) & IMAF

4th Dan Unarmed Military Combat, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Military Martial Arts Union ICMAUA

4th Dan Tsung Chen Do, The Tsung Chen Do Assn.-USA

4th Dan Tsung Chen Do, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Martial Arts Union ICMAUA

4th Dan Jiu-Jitsu, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Jujitsu Union ICMAUA

3rd Dan Moo Duk Kwan, The Korea TKD Moo Duk Hae-Seoul, Korea

3rd Dan Dragon Kenpo Karate, Dragon Kenpo Karate Assn.(USA) & IMAF

3rd Dan Dragon Kenpo Karate, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Kenpo Union ICMAUA

3rd Dan Combat Taekwondo, The United States Combat Martial Arts Assn.

3rd Dan Combat Taekwondo, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Taekwondo Union ICMAUA

3rd Dan Moo Duk Kwan, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Taekwondo Union ICMAUA

1st Dan Hapkido, World Chontu Tae-Do Hapkido Fed. (Canada) & IMAF

1st Dan Hapkido, Instructor, Examiner, International Combat Hapkido Union ICMAUA

OTHER HONORS and POSITIONS:

Board of Directors, WWMAHOF & IMAF

Member of The World Ildokwan Federation Technical Advisory Council

Inducted into the World-Wide Martial Arts Hall of Fame (WWMAHOF)

Inducted into the Canada International Martial Arts Society Hall of Fame

Inducted into the World Il-Do-Kwan Federation International Hall of Fame -"Presidential Award for Dedicated Leadership'

Inducted into the International Combat Martial Arts Hall of Fame ICMAUA

Inducted into the International Combat Martial Arts Encyclopedia ICMAUA

Canada International Martial Arts Society-USA Representative

Registered International Master Instructor, World Ildokwan Federation

I wasn't aware someone could be ranked that highly in that many arts... :shrug:

Whatever.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
MartialArtist,

You are Korean?
anyohashimunika
(romanized Korean)



That was Dave Shultz’s name “Chinese-efied” into what would seemed to have been Mandarin.





Actually it’s not.
It’s a couple of “Japanese-esque” words stuck together that mean nothing.
I am Korean.

Chinese-efied and Japanese-esque... I've seen many people around, not just martial artists, but everyday people who wear something because it sounds or looks cool. Have you ever seen pictures of a Japanese girl wearing a shirt that has something like "I like to eat p*ssy" in English? Not too many of those around, but English characters somehow appealed to that girl. I see people walking around with tatoos or just symbols on their shirt when they don't even know what they mean. I saw one guy that had "wood" on his arm. I don't know any Chinese, but I do know what the major characters (especially the elements) are.

Anyway, thanks for the Japanese lesson on mya ryu jitsu.

What is worse IMO, is that there are high ranking people even in the standard organizations that can't even pronounce the name of the art right. Such as tae kwon do.

It is NOT pronounced "tai kwan doe". It's more "tay ko^n do" where there are no drawlings or lapses. All "sharp" pernunciations. Do not exaggerate the y, it is like a sharp "tape" without the p sound, kon (not pernounced as con as in convict but kinda similiar to a sharp cone with some difference in phonics, and do is prounouced correctly, just need to do it a bit sharper.

The worst thing to me is when a person acts like they know what they are saying, but their grammar and accent are :rofl:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
MartialArtist,

You are Korean?
anyohashimunika
(romanized Korean)

ahn young ha say yo. Jo wha yo, kam sa ham ni da.

Sorry, I can't translate Korean phonics to English characters. But I did understand what you said and my reply is above.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
I saw one guy that had "wood" on his arm.

Maybe he was advertising.....;)

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Maybe he was advertising.....;)
Maybe just a little too happy around the guys

[Matt Stone]

No showers with the Wood guy...

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
The following are some photos of how to spot fake dan certificates from real ones.


Notice the 2 types of “hanko”. The real one is more elaborate and therefore more difficult for scumbags to forge…….the fake one I can buy at almost any stationary shop in Japan and has been mass produced by the 1,000s.
Much like the family "banners" (I don't know what to call them in English) in Korean.

Korea's main language was Mandarin until King Sejong's reign. The king and his scholars/administration wanted to make a much easier language to learn than Chinese, and thus, Korean. However, in family trees, the name is always given in Korean first, then in Chinese characters right under it. Plus, the family banners, were done by usually the oldest elder in the family (calligraphy). Plus, there's the hand-carved family seal, stamp, and each family had its own unique paper. Very hard to forge.

[MartialArtist]

Here is an example of a seal. It's a bit faded out, and note what type of paper it's on. Don't mind the white, it's due to my quick 15-second crop with Paint. However, you can see some characteristics from this that aren't in the ones that you can just buy at a flea market. Hand carved, etc.

Notice, this isn't even really that important. The symbol has no important meaning... If people spent this much time working on this, imagine what they would do with a real certificate or on the family tree & records.

[RyuShiKan]

Here are some different styles of kanji.

the chinese standard one (kaisho: square style)

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Although you didn't post it here on this BBs isn’t this your bio from “Grandmaster” Schultz website?

“Master David Craine
Board of Directors International League of Martial Arts Masters
Vice President Gulf Coast Martial Artists Guild
A.R.K./CQDT Master Instructor
6th Dan Tae Kwon Do”


and with this caption under the photo.

GM Schultz inducting Master Craine into the League
Yuk dan in TKD?

Even McDojangs in the United States have more decency than that. It takes at least 15 years even for a McDojang kid to get to 6th dan. It takes about over a year (usually two years) to get to il dan in a McDojang. After that, McDojangs don't let people test so fast, maybe beacuse Kukkiwon might catch on to something :rolleyes:

I don't believe someone can have a yuk dan at that young an age (you really don't look that old Schultz, a compliment), especially when he studied many of the Japanese and Chinese arts, unless it was an organization elsewhere? What organization is the rank from?

[RyuShiKan]

tensho (the oldest style, now used for personal seals' design)

[RyuShiKan]

reisho (a variant of the tensho style elaborated by monks)

[RyuShiKan]

gyôsho (semi-cursive style: informal kaisho)

[RyuShiKan]

and sôsho (cursive style: an abbreviated form of reisho style).

[Matt Stone]

It is my understanding that authentic hanko (not sure of the Chinese or Korean terms for them) are carved in the tensho style...

Not an easy task, seeing as how many of the characters are archaic, no longer in use, or difficult to translate...

Please, RyuShiKan, correct me if I am wrong.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by chufeng
Dead frickin' horse...

...strange sense of humor...I did not see anything funny...
If your teacher thinks we are children, then your post is even LESS funny...

out

chufeng

No one is calling anyone children just a metaphore I used.

[RyuShiKan]

And for Chinese.........

The zhuan script or seal character was the earliest form of writing after the oracle inscriptions, which must have caused great inconvenience because they lacked uniformity and many characters were written in variant forms. The first effort for the unification of writing, it is said, took place during the reign of King Xuan (827-782 B. C.) of the Western Zhou Dynasty, when his taishi (grand historian) Shi Zhou compiled a lexicon of 15 chapters, standardizing Chinese writing under script called zhuan. It is also known as zhouwen after the name of the author. This script, often used in seals, is translated into English as the seal character, or as the "curly script" after the shape of its strokes.

[RyuShiKan]

The lishu (official script) came in the wake of the xiaozhuan in the same short-lived Qin Dynasty (221 - 207 B. C.). This was because the xiaozhuan, though a simplified form of script, was still too complicated for the scribes in the various government offices who had to copy an increasing amount of documents. Cheng Miao, a prison warden, made a further simplification of the xiaozhuan, changing the curly strokes into straight and angular ones and thus making writing much easier. A further step away from the pictographs, it was named lishu because li in classical Chinese meant "clerk" or "scribe". Another version says that Cheng Miao, because of certain offence, became a prisoner and slave himself; as the ancients also called bound slaves "li", so the script was named lishu or the "script of a slave".

[arnisador]

Thanks RyuShiKan, this is interesting and informative!

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
No one is calling anyone children just a metaphore I used.


metaphor (Noun)
Definition: a figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Although you didn't post it here on this BBs isn’t this your bio from “Grandmaster” Schultz website?

“Master David Craine
Board of Directors International League of Martial Arts Masters
Vice President Gulf Coast Martial Artists Guild
A.R.K./CQDT Master Instructor
6th Dan Tae Kwon Do”


and with this caption under the photo.

GM Schultz inducting Master Craine into the League

Yeh! its me. Why?

I didnt post my rank here because it is not necessary and I have nothing to prove to anyone.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Of course, one does not have to give proof. The only consequence is, NO ONE BELIEVES ANY OF YOUR CRAP. So, if you don't feel like giving proof, fine with us. That just tells us ALL WE NEED TO KNOW. Quite simple, wouldn't you say?

No everything is not always black and white!

I thought you wanted this issue to die and you didnt give a rats a#$.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
It is my understanding that authentic hanko (not sure of the Chinese or Korean terms for them) are carved in the tensho style...

Not an easy task, seeing as how many of the characters are archaic, no longer in use, or difficult to translate...

Please, RyuShiKan, correct me if I am wrong.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


Yiliquan1,

Hanko making is a hobby of mine so I have read a bit about them. To make a nice hanko you need the hands of a Swiss watch maker and the patients of the Pope……so it is a kind of training for me. ;) since I have neither.
I might add that all the kanji on the hanko have to be carved backwards (mirror image) so they come out correctly when stamped.

Most MA certification hankos are written in either Japanese tensho, Chinese zhuan, and sometimes Chinese lishu script.
Why?
Because they are hard to duplicate.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Yeh! its me. Why?

Just curious.


Originally posted by DAC..florida
I didnt post my rank here because it is not necessary and I have nothing to prove to anyone.

Whatever you say.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Don Roley
Well, your teacher did claim rank and the last time I checked his web site, (by clicking on the "WWW" button on your posts) those claims were still there along with those of his senior students.

And the aurgument you use, about how some people will never accept proof, so why bother give it to anyone kind of sets of alarms in my mind. As I said before, there are some people that will look at proof and still deny it. You are not trying to prove things to those people. You are trying to prove things to people who are not involved so they can check for themselves.

If someone makes a claim, and another person states that the proof is untrue, then from an observers standpoint it is hard to tell who is telling the truth. But if they can look up the proof themselves, then they know who to believe. However, when a person makes claims about having rank, and then refuses to back up that story, the person like me who has no stake in the matter naturally assumes that the person trying to make the claims is an incompetent fraud. Especially after making a claim that is proven false they then start to say that the claim was not important anyways.


I stand by my earlier statements on this issue, thats my opinion and I am entitled to it.
Your point has been made and I respect your opinion.

[RyuShiKan]

Here is an example of xingshu or running hand style script along with several hanko of various styles off to the side.

[RyuShiKan]

On the basis of lishu also evolved caoshu (grass writing or cursive hand), which is rapid and used for making quick but rough copies. This style is subdivided into two schools: zhangcao and jincao..notice the “normal kanji off to the right so you can read it just incase you don’t understand caoshu style hand writing.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
I have another question...

I remember something in the past where Mr. Schultz said he was not really interested in the Korean arts, he was having a great time with what he already does and I totally understand that. But then why are you a representative of the organization? I went to your website, and ARK is your own special blend of close quarters combat karate, am I right? Well, shouldn't you belong to an organization that kinda pertains to that instead of the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization? And in Korea, there is no such thing as the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization. There might be some people in Korea that belong to the organization, but it is not based out of Korea, yet it calls itself the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization. Actually, according to its website, it is located in Florida by a guy of Jack Stern. And why does he use a Japanese term, and some washed out non-Korean characters as his head?
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kyha/KYHALogo.gif
I understand that yudo is judo which is Japanese, but it calls itself the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization. Yudo, although a Japanese art, is a Korean term. Hapkido is a Korean art. There is "Korean" in the title. Yet nothing there is remotely Korean. The logo does look like a that of an ITF patch that I've seen. The only thing Korean I've seen is the whole paragraph right under his logo on his dobuk, which is too small to read but obviously Korean. And, what it looks like to be a WTF patch, but too distant to see.

I think the Korean Yudo and Hapkido Organization would do better if it renamed it to a name that suited the organization better. Obviously, Stern has very little yudo and hapkido experience, even on his website, but does seem to have more Japanese references. Just a suggestion.



I cant answer this as good as Schultz but I do know that this organization has afiliation with Korea as well as the rest of the world. This organization accepts Martial artists from many differant styles from all over the world, if you have time read through the web site and I think your questions will be answered a little better.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I cant answer this as good as Schultz but I do know that this organization has afiliation with Korea as well as the rest of the world.

You call your instructor “Schultz”……..not “Mr.”……..kinda rude don’t ya think?

[chufeng]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Now we are to believe that DAC is an 8th dan in about 16 different arts?

:eek:

I will be more careful about pissing him off in the future...

DAC...do you REALLY post that kind of rank???
Give me a break...
8th dan in ONE art is a lifetime endeavor...and not one that one actually seeks, but which catches up to him as his training progresses...

I honestly hope you never run into a REAL 5th dan...
He'll eat your lunch...

Aren't you just a little embarrassed to post the "bio" that you've posted?
Aren't you just a little bit ashamed of shamming those who look up to you?

Your claims are even more outrageous than your teacher's...

VERY disappointed in Puyallup...

chufeng:(

[chufeng]

Ooops...couldn't let the frickin' dead horse die, could you...Welcome to peer review...

:asian:
chufeng

[RyuShiKan]

Based on the above information I have displayed you can understand why calligraphy is a matter of pride for several countries in Asia that use Chinese kanji. It is also a past time of most Asian MA people since they use it to make certifications and makimono (scrolls) dealing with their art.
Therefore, it is understandable that a certificate “supposedly” issued in Asia that has “banged out” on a word processor is a joke at best.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Dong Koo Yudo Kwon... I have never heard of this organization. I'm Korean, and the words do sound Korean, although they really don't make sense in how they are used, but maybe it's just a name for their organization or archaic (before 1600s)?

I really have no clue on your organization. I'm confused, care to enlighten me? The name Zhao Dei Whei or whatever in the beginning, sounded Mandarin or Catonese. Then mya ryu jitsu is obviously Japanese. Then you have some remote Korean organization promoting it? Can anyone clarify for me what this is?

Dong Koo Yudo Kwon if I'm not mistaken is affiliated with WTF and again I'm not 100% sure but I believe there headquarters is located in the kookiwon. not possative of the spelling>


I believe the names have been explained before so I'll make this short. 1. Zhoa Dai Weh
(schultz) ( david) chinease

2. Mya Ryu Jitsu
(arabic for water) (style of) (jitsu) Japanease

Our system is a mix of many styles from all over the world.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
Ooops...couldn't let the frickin' dead horse die, could you...Welcome to peer review...

:asian:
chufeng

I think a Haiku is in order:

Furui ike ya (An old pond)

Kowazu tobikomu (A frog leaps)

Mizu no oto (A splash resounds)

let me know if you get it.... ;)

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I believe the names have been explained before so I'll make this short. 1. Zhoa Dai Weh
(schultz) ( david) chinease

Chinease? Is that anything like Chinese?


Originally posted by DAC..florida
2. Mya Ryu Jitsu
(arabic for water) (style of) (jitsu) Japanease

Can't comment on the Arabic, but the “Japanease” is FUBARed.
Ryu has about 10 different variations depending on the kanji, and “jitsu” means “actually” or in some cases “day”.
So by your rendition you have “water something (possibly style) of day".
Given the fact that your teacher changes the name of his art almost daily that’s not a bad name for it.



Originally posted by DAC..florida
Our system is a mix of many styles from all over the world.

You should care it “Quisinart” like the thing that mixes food.
(just kidding)

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Yuk dan in TKD?

Even McDojangs in the United States have more decency than that. It takes at least 15 years even for a McDojang kid to get to 6th dan. It takes about over a year (usually two years) to get to il dan in a McDojang. After that, McDojangs don't let people test so fast, maybe beacuse Kukkiwon might catch on to something :rolleyes:

I don't believe someone can have a yuk dan at that young an age (you really don't look that old Schultz, a compliment), especially when he studied many of the Japanese and Chinese arts, unless it was an organization elsewhere? What organization is the rank from?

I do not want this to turn into another bashing that goes on for two months.
Schultz doesnt have the yuk dan its me Ive been a student of TKD since I was 7 and am now 28 three organizations that recognize it are The Korean Yudo and Hapkido ass.
The Dong Koo Yudo Kwon
The world TKD Federation

Please dont drag this topic on to long I chose not to post my rank here for a reason now that its out theres your proof but thats all I am willing to post.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I do not want this to turn into another bashing that goes on for two months.

I am sure you wouldn’t like that at all.


Originally posted by DAC..florida
Schultz doesnt have the yuk dan its me Ive been a student of TKD since I was 7 and am now 28 three organizations that recognize it are The Korean Yudo and Hapkido ass.


Don’t ya think you should call him “Mr.” Schultz…….or sensei……I mean after all he is your instructor………show a little respect.

[RyuShiKan]

Here is a nice chart I found that gives the style next to each other.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
You call your instructor “Schultz”……..not “Mr.”……..kinda rude don’t ya think?

Not to his face just taking short cuts in here.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Not to his face just taking short cuts in here.


It would seem you guys take a lot of "short cuts"

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by chufeng
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Now we are to believe that DAC is an 8th dan in about 16 different arts?

:eek:

I will be more careful about pissing him off in the future...

DAC...do you REALLY post that kind of rank???
Give me a break...
8th dan in ONE art is a lifetime endeavor...and not one that one actually seeks, but which catches up to him as his training progresses...

I honestly hope you never run into a REAL 5th dan...
He'll eat your lunch...

Aren't you just a little embarrassed to post the "bio" that you've posted?
Aren't you just a little bit ashamed of shamming those who look up to you?

Your claims are even more outrageous than your teacher's...

VERY disappointed in Puyallup...

chufeng:(


That bio that was posted earlier is not mine nor do I know whos it is I have no 8th dan and have only studied 2 different styles in my life, I dont even see anyones name attached to that bio you will have to ask the poster for that info.. I think that was just an ex. of one of the bio's he found.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
It would seem you guys take a lot of "short cuts"


You know nothing about us guys and sure do make alot of false alligations about people you dont know, the above post was not necessary I think you got my point no need for this crap.

I have respect for you and feel you bring alot of good info.. to this forum, but I also feel you make too many alligations and assumptions wich you can never back up. why?

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
You know nothing about us guys and sure do make alot of false alligations

For example?


Originally posted by DAC..florida
I have respect for you……..

Do you always call people you respect an “idiot”?
I would shudder to think what you call someone you didn’t respect.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
For example?



Do you always call people you respect an “idiot”?
I would shudder to think what you call someone you didn’t respect.

I was very agravated on that day and try to refrain from name calling. I made a general apology for the name calling to everyone on the recieving end and it was sincere.


Example: you guys seem to take alot of short cuts!

HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THIS! :asian:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I do not want this to turn into another bashing that goes on for two months.
Schultz doesnt have the yuk dan its me Ive been a student of TKD since I was 7 and am now 28 three organizations that recognize it are The Korean Yudo and Hapkido ass.
The Dong Koo Yudo Kwon
The world TKD Federation

Please dont drag this topic on to long I chose not to post my rank here for a reason now that its out theres your proof but thats all I am willing to post.
WOW! The WTF recognizes your yuk dan?

I wouldn't know anything at all, since I've been studying before the age of 7, and have trained from Korea from around 7 to almost my high school years with drill instructors. Hopefully, at 28, you don't have grandchildren. :eek: It took me over a decade to get my il dan. Call me jealous, because I want a yuk dan. The average age for a yuk dan holder is around the high 40s to 50s. You realize that if you already have a yuk dan at 28, you are one of a kind.

And if recognized by the WTF, all I have to do is call them and ask what the youngest yuk dan they have. If 28 or younger is the answer, then I will believe you. It doesn't matter if that 28 year old is you or not, that is enough proof for me. However, a more realistic answer would be somewhere the early 40s or maybe even the late 30s.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
You know nothing about us guys and sure do make alot of false alligations about people you dont know, the above post was not necessary I think you got my point no need for this crap.

I have respect for you and feel you bring alot of good info.. to this forum, but I also feel you make too many alligations and assumptions wich you can never back up. why?
No need for this crap? With all due respect, all RyuShiKan has been posting is cold hard facts. After that, he always gives out his opinion based on those cold hard facts, which he is entitled to, while you are entitled to yours.

But please realize, that all the responses are not out of the blue, but based on the information placed on the website, the organizations the website announces relations with, the claims that are made, and by the demeanor of the given public that makes those claims.

I have never studied ARK, so I will not make assumptions. But, I can see how certain people can make assumptions based on many of the things said and it is their opinion. Whether you believe their opinions are based on facts or on air, is up to you. But remember, facts are not open for debate.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
WOW! The WTF recognizes your yuk dan?

I wouldn't know anything at all, since I've been studying before the age of 7, and have trained from Korea from around 7 to almost my high school years with drill instructors. Hopefully, at 28, you don't have grandchildren. :eek: It took me over a decade to get my il dan. Call me jealous, because I want a yuk dan. The average age for a yuk dan holder is around the high 40s to 50s. You realize that if you already have a yuk dan at 28, you are one of a kind.

And if recognized by the WTF, all I have to do is call them and ask what the youngest yuk dan they have. If 28 or younger is the answer, then I will believe you. It doesn't matter if that 28 year old is you or not, that is enough proof for me. However, a more realistic answer would be somewhere the early 40s or maybe even the late 30s.

I have never been to thier headquarters or even filled out a member aplication but I do have an authentic certificate that recognizes my rank. Im not even sure if they know my age.
so if your going to check, look it up under my name.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Example: you guys seem to take alot of short cuts!

HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THIS! :asian:

I look at your website and see the claims to extremely high ranks in several arts and titles like “Master” or “Grandmaster”.
I call the HQ one of you claims rank in and they have never heard of you.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
No need for this crap? With all due respect, all RyuShiKan has been posting is cold hard facts. After that, he always gives out his opinion based on those cold hard facts, which he is entitled to, while you are entitled to yours.

But please realize, that all the responses are not out of the blue, but based on the information placed on the website, the organizations the website announces relations with, the claims that are made, and by the demeanor of the given public that makes those claims.

I have never studied ARK, so I will not make assumptions. But, I can see how certain people can make assumptions based on many of the things said and it is their opinion. Whether you believe their opinions are based on facts or on air, is up to you. But remember, facts are not open for debate.

your right everyone has thier own opinion and is entitled to share it.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I have never been to thier headquarters or even filled out a member aplication but I do have an authentic certificate that recognizes my rank. Im not even sure if they know my age.
so if your going to check, look it up under my name.


Then shut everyone up and make them look stupid by posting it.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Then shut everyone up and make them look stupid by posting it.


I do not have a scanner or fax machine or I honestly would.

send me a PM with your mailing adress and I will send you a copy.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I do not have a scanner or fax machine or I honestly would.

send me a PM with your mailing adress and I will send you a copy.

There are more than a few Kinko's, or similar places, you can get it scanned to a disk.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I was very agravated on that day and try to refrain from name calling. I made a general apology for the name calling to everyone on the recieving end and it was sincere.


Example: you guys seem to take alot of short cuts!

HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY KNOW THIS! :asian:
I think you just called me an ass


I do not want this to turn into another bashing that goes on for two months.
Schultz doesnt have the yuk dan its me Ive been a student of TKD since I was 7 and am now 28 three organizations that recognize it are The Korean Yudo and Hapkido ass.
The Dong Koo Yudo Kwon
The world TKD Federation
I have not made any personal attacks that were out of the blue. I was just pointing out some of the things that popped out at me. If somehow, that offended you because for pointing something out, and if it makes you feel better, then I'm sorry, but I stick by my statements. But no reason to call me an ass. I have not affiliated you with such catch phrases, and do you honestly believe posts such as the one above will help you at all?

Anyway, here are the details as of right now on the website...

874 yuk dans in the world minus Korea. That includes the entire world mind you. And that doesn't mean Korean ethnicity, or Korean nationality, but it means anyone not teaching in the US. There are only 51 9th dans in the world other than Korea, and luckily, I know of one teaching a few hours drive away from me.



-----------------------------------------------

I didn't even have to call!!! Check this out... I posted the English version so you can see it with your own eyes.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa0.asp?div=5

Age limit for 5th to 6th dan testing... 30 years (Born on December 31, 1972). And you need to have held your 5th dan for five years in order to test.

[RyuShiKan]

Not only are the false claims made by posers an insult to the real Martial Artists; they are an embarrassment to their community and a disgrace to their families. Imposters deceive and abuse the trust of students, and boast about stupid exploits; sometimes they even manage to fool acquaintances for an extended period of time... but eventually they will be discovered and exposed.

[RyuShiKan]

So for 7th dan you need:

7th ~ 8th Dan 8 years
(Those promoted to 7th Dan on December 31, 1994 or earlier) 44 years old or higher
(Born on December 31, 1958 or earlier

[MartialArtist]

An excerpt of the requirements...


5. Time for Poomsae training and time for practical tests
1) Date and place: Dec. 7, 2002 (Sat) 08:40, Kukkiwon arena
2) Poomsae training: 09:00-09:50
3) Opening ceremony: 10:00-10:10
4) Practical tests (Subject to change according to the number of applicants)
(1) Poomsae, Kyorugi and Kyukpa for promotion to 6th & 7th Dan: 10:20~
(2) Poomsae and Interview for promotion to 8th and 9th Dan: 10:20~


6. Kinds of Poomsae to be tested
Dan / Cls. Kinds of Poomsae to be tested
Applicant's selection Compulsory
6th Dan Taebaek, Pyongwon, Shipjin (Choose one) Jitae
7th Dan Pyongwon, Shipjin, Jitae (Choose one) Chunkwon
8th Dan Shipjin, Jitae, Chunkwon (Choose one) Hansoo
9th Dan Jitae, Chunkwon, Hansoo (Choose one) Ilyeo


7. Theme of the thesis
Dan to be applied for Theme
Korean residents (6th through 9th Dan) Methods to Promte the Operation of Taekwondo Dojang
Foreign residents (8th & 9th Dan) *Choose one
1. Development of Taekwondo Techniques
2. Taekwondo Spirit
3. Teachin Ideas Based on Experiences
4. Methods for Systematic Improvements




1) The thesis should be submitted on the day of the test.
2) Size of the thesis: at least 10 A4-sized (one A4-size = 700 characters) pages in Korean or English
3) Applicant cannot pass the test in the following cases:
(1) The title of the thesis does not relate with the content.
(2) The thesis includes content not good enough.
(3) The size of the thesis is not long enough.
(4) Two or more applicants submit the same thesis.




8. Documents to be submitted


1) Application form for promotion test (recommendation by a Taekwondo master
holding 9th Dan or higher or president of the member national association of the WTF in the pertinent
country
2) Curriculum vitae that includes the martial arts career
3) Foreigners of Korean origin should submit a document that certifies his/her residence outside Korea.

[MartialArtist]

Screenshot of the table on the website

Guess we were both wrong DAC. I was wrong, there probably are people with 6th dans that are younger than my estimations.

[MartialArtist]

But realize that the age expectations do not mean that there are any 53 year old 9th dans. Most 9th dans are over 60.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
I think you just called me an ass


I have not made any personal attacks that were out of the blue. I was just pointing out some of the things that popped out at me. If somehow, that offended you because for pointing something out, and if it makes you feel better, then I'm sorry, but I stick by my statements. But no reason to call me an ass. I have not affiliated you with such catch phrases, and do you honestly believe posts such as the one above will help you at all?

Anyway, here are the details as of right now on the website...

874 yuk dans in the world minus Korea. That includes the entire world mind you. And that doesn't mean Korean ethnicity, or Korean nationality, but it means anyone not teaching in the US. There are only 51 9th dans in the world other than Korea, and luckily, I know of one teaching a few hours drive away from me.



-----------------------------------------------

I didn't even have to call!!! Check this out... I posted the English version so you can see it with your own eyes.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa0.asp?div=5

Age limit for 5th to 6th dan testing... 30 years (Born on December 31, 1972). And you need to have held your 5th dan for five years in order to test.


First of all both above quotes were not intended for you so dont take offence.

Thats some great info.. but again I dont think they know my age at least no-one ever asked me for it. Maybe if they knew my age they would not have recognized such rank, but I do have the certificates.

[RyuShiKan]

.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
First of all both above quotes were not intended for you so dont take offence.

Thats some great info.. but again I dont think they know my age at least no-one ever asked me for it. Maybe if they knew my age they would not have recognized such rank, but I do have the certificates.
No problem, if they were not intended for me. But to whom where they intended to?

Certificates... They are not from WTF. If you look at the requirements, you do need to fill out an application form. Notice, APPLICATION FORM. It also requires ID. The application form requires you to have your birthdate on it. Your ID also has your birthdate. So logically...

Plus, you need a recommendation from a 9th dan or someone very high up there in the supreme council who are also 9th dans. They don't give recommendations to anyone. And please take note... 9th dans that are recognized by Kukkiwon, and have met all the requirements on that page plus many extra ones not listed.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Not only are the false claims made by posers an insult to the real Martial Artists; they are an embarrassment to their community and a disgrace to their families. Imposters deceive and abuse the trust of students, and boast about stupid exploits; sometimes they even manage to fool acquaintances for an extended period of time... but eventually they will be discovered and exposed.


I agree with you here and wish I could post those certificates just to put it all out there.


Again if you send me a PM with a mailing address you can be reached at I will send copies, and after your review you can post them.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I agree with you here and wish I could post those certificates just to put it all out there.


Again if you send me a PM with a mailing address you can be reached at I will send copies, and after your review you can post them.

Can't you just go to kinko's and get it scanned?

[RyuShiKan]

:eek:

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
No problem, if they were not intended for me. But to whom where they intended to?

Certificates... They are not from WTF. If you look at the requirements, you do need to fill out an application form. Notice, APPLICATION FORM. It also requires ID. The application form requires you to have your birthdate on it. Your ID also has your birthdate. So logically...

Plus, you need a recommendation from a 9th dan or someone very high up there in the supreme council who are also 9th dans. They don't give recommendations to anyone. And please take note... 9th dans that are recognized by Kukkiwon, and have met all the requirements on that page plus many extra ones not listed.

I do have a certificate from the WTF and was never required to fill out a aplication? The certificate has the kukkiwon on the front and the WTF seal.

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Kirk
Can't you just go to kinko's and get it scanned?



Kirk,
Idid not know that kinkos could scan and post it here for me, I will have to look into that thanks.

Please be patient I'm a detention deputy and dont work in corporate america.:rofl:

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I do have a certificate from the WTF and was never required to fill out a aplication? The certificate has the kukkiwon on the front and the WTF seal.
Probably not a real one.

Is it handwritten? Is there a seal? You can tell if it's hand-carved, or just copied. Hand-carved - Looks like real ink, it shouldn't be perfectly applied with certain areas that are darker than others. You really can't simulate the "authentic" look. Can you scan it?

Sorry to say, you were probably duped. Who gave it to you would be my first question. It is probably a fake right as of right now. Don't confuse seal with logo. Just because it has the WTF logo and a picture of Kukkiwon doesn't mean anything. And the certificates for higher ranks aren't just paper. It's real quality, thick paper, has brownish and yellowish tints to it.

Certificate isn't real.

[MartialArtist]

Anyway, if you know the person and/or the organization that gave you the certificate, post it here. I'm interested. And the manner of how you received it.

[Disco]

You claim that Youk Dan rank should be in their late 40's early 50's. Don't know where you come up with that age figure. In my 20yrs in TKD I've seen and met more 30 something and early 40 year olds that were Korean and held 6th, 7th and 8th dan rankings than you can shake a stick at. The midwest states are full of them. In fact I'll give you a web site to go to that has Korean Masters pictures. www.ustw.org These are all 8th and 9th dans and most are under 50.

I just don't like to see somebody jumping on a bandwagon against one person and then making claims that are shall we say less then correct. Very similiar to another of your posts stating all TKD schools in America are connected to Korea. I answered that one also but more blind eyes. You have something factual and constructive to say/add then by all means please do. Just don't blast off a shotgun statement and exspect it to fly.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Kirk,
Idid not know that kinkos could scan and post it here for me, I will have to look into that thanks.

Please be patient I'm a detention deputy and dont work in corporate america.:rofl:


Here is a link to Kinkos.

http://www.kinkos.com/our_services/index.php

Look under Services and then Computer & Facilities.........they do scanning.