View Full Version : An attempt a uniformity
artFling
07-07-2009, 12:22 AM
I read and found the following link interesting. Don't know if it's been shared elsewhere on this board. It's a common discussion amongst these threads: what should or should not constitute a blackbelt? At what age is it appropriate to award a BB to a student. Here's a group attempting to deal with that issue. It looks like they are jujitsu-ka in the main, but their discussion seems pertinent to the MA world as a whole. Do you tend to agree with their age requirements?
http://www.jujitsutraining.co.uk/blogs/index.php?title=martial_arts_brotherhood_and_maste rs_cou_2009&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
Wo Fat
07-07-2009, 08:28 AM
Their BB age criteria is similar to our style. No child will be awarded a BB until he or she is 17. Until then, they may wear a Black/Brown belt in some combined fashion--the instructor has discretion as to the design.
There is a great deal of responsibility and maturity that goes with a BB, and children--by nature--don't have that level of maturity and responsibility.
Worldwide uniformity...next to impossible. Now, if you have an org. headed by one person, with a panel of advisors under him/her, then I'd say the chances for some sort of standard would be better. Then again, even that is probably not 100%.
This of course, is one of my biggest pet peeves, and I'm sure I've upset more than my share of fellow Kenpoists. I always find it interesting to see so many kids running around with high ranking black belts on, as well as people who are older, also wearing some damn high rank, in addition to claiming high rank in other arts as well.
If someone were to start training at 4, which IMO, is way too young anyways, then realistically, after 12yrs of training, they can be awarded the BB at 16. The flip side is...Is someone, especially at that age, really going to want to wait 12yrs? People are under the assumption that if you wait X amount of time, then when you reach that time, you should be awarded your belt. I disagree. If the norm is 6yrs to black, then at 10yrs old, you have a first degree BB. Wait 2 yrs in between rank, and now you have a 12yo 2nd degree, a 15yo 3rd degree, a 19yo 4th degree, 24yo 5th degree, etc. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't see a 30yo 8th degree BB. Now, factor in a few more arts, and you have someone in thier 40s, with 4 or more 8th degree black belts. Sounds kinda odd to me, but again, thats just my opinion.
You will always find your child or adult who is above average, meaning they pick things up quick. But IMO, there is more to training than just being able to run thru a series of moves. I've also seen my share of 4yr olds, who can't grasp the simplist thing, and are more of a distraction in the class than anything else.
I say, wait until the person is older, maybe around 10. At least 6yrs to black, and then at least the amount of years at that rank, for the rank they're going for, as I said above. ie: 2yrs for 2nd black, 3 for 3rd, 4 for 4th, etc.
I think that too many times, people are more concerned with the "ohh and ahh" factor, instead of quality. I don't give a rats behind if you have a belt with 1,000 stripes on it. That is not what *I* look for in a teacher.
Ken Morgan
07-07-2009, 08:50 AM
The context is very different in the Kendo federation but I guess they would be. There needs to be an established grading protocal in all oraganizations.
Applicants (Kendo, Iaido and Jodo) must have the following periods of practice:
Dan/Kyu Practice Periods Minimum Ages
1 Kyu
1 (Sho) Dan Over 3 months after granting of 1 Kyu 14 Years and over
2 (Ni) Dan Over 2 years after granting of 1st Dan 16 Years and over
3 (San) Dan Over 2 years after granting of 2nd Dan 18 Years and over
4 (Yon) Dan Over 3 years after granting of 3rd Dan 21 Years and over
5 (Go) Dan Over 4 years after granting of 4th Dan 25 Years and over
6(Roku) Dan Over 5 years after granting of 5th Dan 30 Years and over
7 (Nana) Dan Over 6 years after granting of 6th Dan 36 Years and over
8 (Hachi) Dan Over 10 years after granting of 7th Dan 48 Years and over
Their BB age criteria is similar to our style. No child will be awarded a BB until he or she is 17. Until then, they may wear a Black/Brown belt in some combined fashion--the instructor has discretion as to the design.
There is a great deal of responsibility and maturity that goes with a BB, and children--by nature--don't have that level of maturity and responsibility.
I agree, however the #1 issue, IMHO, is that not only does the child not want to wait that long, but neither to the parents. Now, the inst. has a choice...make them wait and run the risk of them leaving to join a school that will cater to them or give them the belt so they stay happy and stay at your school.
This, I feel, is the issue that many face. Again, I tip my hat to those that adhere to solid standards. It should not be about the money or how many students you have and how many BB's you have, but the quality of them.
Jenna
07-07-2009, 09:20 AM
While I appreciate organisations' attempts at standardisation, how can they apply age criteria (eg. no 2nd deg until 23 or over) without appearing completely and utterly arbitrary??? I think favouring standardisation over the grass-roots instructor's descretion is a ridiculous idea.
As a guideline, yes fine, and but as a organisation's statute or dictate, I could not agree at all with it.
The only criteria for a grade surely is that the student can demonstrate a set level of proficiency. Age? What has that to do with anything? If an organisation insists on having minimum age-limits, then it must surely also apply upper age-limits too?
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna
While I appreciate organisations' attempts at standardisation, how can they apply age criteria (eg. no 2nd deg until 23 or over) without appearing completely and utterly arbitrary??? I think favouring standardisation over the grass-roots instructor's descretion is a ridiculous idea.
As a guideline, yes fine, and but as a organisation's statute or dictate, I could not agree at all with it.
The only criteria for a grade surely is that the student can demonstrate a set level of proficiency. Age? What has that to do with anything? If an organisation insists on having minimum age-limits, then it must surely also apply upper age-limits too?
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna
Maybe I'm reading the first line wrong and forgive me if thats the case. But I take that as saying, judge each person on a case by case basis. If that is the case, I think that would be more of a headache and heres why. You have 2 kids, Joey and Jack. Both are good friends, live next door to each other, and joined the dojo at the same exact time. Joey trains his butt off. His parents sit down with him daily and review his martial arts requirements. They treat this just like they treat his school work. Jack is much more relaxed, doesn't practice that much, his parents dont work with him, and rarely show up to watch and ask questions at the dojo.
So, test time comes 4 mos. later. The head inst. decides that Joey is ready to test, however, Jack isn't quite ready. So Joey tests, and gets his new rank, and Jack is held back. Can you see where this is heading?
Now, this isn't to say that if there is a standard, that the child or adult is still up for the test. All it means is they've reached the set time. If they're still not ready, they dont test.
Lets apply this, for a moment, to school. If someone is in the 8th grade, and they don't meet the standards, they are usually kept back. On the flip side, those that do meet the standards, go to the 9th grade, not jump to the 10th just because they're an exception to the rule.
Jenna
07-07-2009, 11:55 AM
Maybe I'm reading the first line wrong and forgive me if thats the case. But I take that as saying, judge each person on a case by case basis. If that is the case, I think that would be more of a headache and heres why. You have 2 kids, Joey and Jack. Both are good friends, live next door to each other, and joined the dojo at the same exact time. Joey trains his butt off. His parents sit down with him daily and review his martial arts requirements. They treat this just like they treat his school work. Jack is much more relaxed, doesn't practice that much, his parents dont work with him, and rarely show up to watch and ask questions at the dojo.
So, test time comes 4 mos. later. The head inst. decides that Joey is ready to test, however, Jack isn't quite ready. So Joey tests, and gets his new rank, and Jack is held back. Can you see where this is heading?
No, you have not misinterpreted, thank you that is what I was trying to say, yes. And yes, that is a good analogy and I appreciate what you are saying. In this case, of course, as you say, headaches for the instructors would abound. Still, if Jack is not ready for testing, he is not ready. As with anything, he (or his parents) cannot expect to make the grade if his performance or attitude is lacking, can they? What we are doing though, is holding Joey back while we wait on Jack. Is that any fairer?
I do understand why organisations seek to standardise testing, certainly. I am only trying to say that I do not see age as being a relevant to the issue of student readiness. If they are ready at 16yo (according to their own instructor), then they are ready at 16, irrespective of whether the overarching organisation stipulates, prescribe >=18 for that particular grade. In those extra two years between when a student is ready and when the organisation permits grading, that student may conceivably become disillusioned.
I would worry that such standardisation by age would result in the lowest common denominator of performance - almost as though we hold a class back, waiting on the least prepared student or that with the most lax attitude - the "Jack" in your example. Are we saying, Jack will be ready at eg. 18yo, therefore 18yo is our benchmark?
If that is the case, then fair enough, I am not part of the organisations and so perhaps have no right to comment. That said, I think this situation is designed to cope with the mass at the expense perhaps of the gifted. While that might be expeditious in revenue terms, I think it is a shame that the best students are penalised in the interests of group standardisation.
And can I apologise if this sounds argumentative, it is not meant to. I do work (non-MA) with young people in my local college and find that in the younger generation, sparks of enthusiasm can be so very easily extinguished. I do not like the idea of damping a young person's enthusiasm because some distant policy-maker has slapped an arbitrary barrier in front of them.
Thank you again for your reply :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna
Grenadier
07-07-2009, 11:59 AM
Leave each system to their own. Let them use their own standards, since to try to compare one to another is going to be comparing apples to oranges.
If someone really wants a more universal ranking, the opportunities are there, with organizations the likes of the WKF or USA-NKF, who offer their own rankings for those interested in having such a "universally recognized" ranking.
The rules for such rankings are clearly spelled out.
Ken Morgan
07-07-2009, 03:15 PM
There needs to be a standard, also there needs to be a standard for those on the grading panel. Those judging, need to follow strict criteria, so as to not bring any personal prejudges into the situation.
You MA grade should be about what you are bringing to the floor on grading day. If you meet all the rules and regulations you should be allowed to grade on grading day, with your Sensei’s permission of course.
I have seen arguments where some want to bring character into gradings. How the Hell can you judge character? It needs to simply be about what you do on grading day.
No, you have not misinterpreted, thank you that is what I was trying to say, yes. And yes, that is a good analogy and I appreciate what you are saying. In this case, of course, as you say, headaches for the instructors would abound. Still, if Jack is not ready for testing, he is not ready. As with anything, he (or his parents) cannot expect to make the grade if his performance or attitude is lacking, can they? What we are doing though, is holding Joey back while we wait on Jack. Is that any fairer?
No, we're not holding Joey back while Jack catches up. We're promoting Joey and holding Jack back. In that case, the inst. would be following the standard. Even if the standard time is met, it doesnt mean that the student will always go up to test. If we took the above situation and put it at the inst. discretion, then there is a chance that the inst may feel bad, may feel pressured and move Jack ahead anyways.
I do understand why organisations seek to standardise testing, certainly. I am only trying to say that I do not see age as being a relevant to the issue of student readiness. If they are ready at 16yo (according to their own instructor), then they are ready at 16, irrespective of whether the overarching organisation stipulates, prescribe >=18 for that particular grade. In those extra two years between when a student is ready and when the organisation permits grading, that student may conceivably become disillusioned.
So by this line of thinking, then regardless of age, quality, etc., its ok to move someone on, even if they are not up to par? So technically, you could have a very young, high ranking BB running around. IMO, that reeks of McDojoism.
I would worry that such standardisation by age would result in the lowest common denominator of performance - almost as though we hold a class back, waiting on the least prepared student or that with the most lax attitude - the "Jack" in your example. Are we saying, Jack will be ready at eg. 18yo, therefore 18yo is our benchmark?
Again, just because there're standards in place, does not mean that when the student reaches the standard, that they have to go up in rank. Yes, they've waiting the required timeframe, ie: 4 mos. between blue and green belt, but if after that 4mos, they're still not ready, they still do not test.
If that is the case, then fair enough, I am not part of the organisations and so perhaps have no right to comment. That said, I think this situation is designed to cope with the mass at the expense perhaps of the gifted. While that might be expeditious in revenue terms, I think it is a shame that the best students are penalised in the interests of group standardisation.
There've been many times, against my better judgement, I gave the ok for someone to test, only to sit on the test panel, and hang my head, because the student that *I* said was ready, sucked. I'm not into quantity, I'm into quality. And if that means that someone sits at X rank until they look good and know their stuff, then so be it. Perhaps, instead of looking at is as punishing the entire class, you're moving all but the ones who need the work, setting an example. Maybe, if the student who wasnt ready, trained harder, if their parents were a larger part of the childs training, then they'd have moved with the rest of the class.
And can I apologise if this sounds argumentative, it is not meant to. I do work (non-MA) with young people in my local college and find that in the younger generation, sparks of enthusiasm can be so very easily extinguished. I do not like the idea of damping a young person's enthusiasm because some distant policy-maker has slapped an arbitrary barrier in front of them.
Thank you again for your reply :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna
Nope, I didn't take it that way at all. :) Its good to have varying opinions. If everyone thought the same, imagine how boring this place would be? :) As for damping the enthusiasm...you explain to the child why he/she was held back. I'm doing my part, which is to teach. They need to do their part and practice.
So by this line of thinking, then regardless of age, quality, etc., its ok to move someone on, even if they are not up to par? So technically, you could have a very young, high ranking BB running around. IMO, that reeks of McDojoism.
What I think is being said is that it is not regardless of quality, just age. Think about what a black belt means, it varies with a lot of people, but it usually represents a certain knowledge and proficiency. Adding an arbitrary age requirement means it changes the meaning of a black belt (or any other belt) from: This means I'm proficient in my art. To: This means I'm proficient in my art and I'm proficient at being over 18.
As for damping the enthusiasm...you explain to the child why he/she was held back. I'm doing my part, which is to teach. They need to do their part and practice.
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that by dampening the enthusiasm was actually for the more gifted child (Joey), not the one who didn't work hard (Jack). So the reason you'd be explaining to him would be along the lines of "You've put in the hard work, you know all your material, you're enthusiastic, but the people who made the requirements said 18 years old is the requirement and it's 3 months till your birthday, so no grading"
What I think is being said is that it is not regardless of quality, just age. Think about what a black belt means, it varies with a lot of people, but it usually represents a certain knowledge and proficiency. Adding an arbitrary age requirement means it changes the meaning of a black belt (or any other belt) from: This means I'm proficient in my art. To: This means I'm proficient in my art and I'm proficient at being over 18.
So going on this, then its ok to have a 10yo 1st degree BB, a 12yo 2nd degree, a 15yo 3rd degree, and an 19yo 4th degree? That is using what, IMO, should be the standard. In other words, you wait the amount of years for the degree you're going for. Technically, if that wasn't used, then you could have a very young, high ranking BB. Again, I ask, this is what we want in the arts? We could also look at what proficient means. To be able to do the material. To have a basic understanding. To have an above average understanding. What do we want to see from the BB? Keep in mind, that these people may be called upon to teach. Are they capable of understanding enough, to not only teach, but to answer questions they may face?
If you're asked 10 questions about a technique, and you can answer only 3 of them vs. someone who answers 8 of them, who has the better understanding?
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that by dampening the enthusiasm was actually for the more gifted child (Joey), not the one who didn't work hard (Jack). So the reason you'd be explaining to him would be along the lines of "You've put in the hard work, you know all your material, you're enthusiastic, but the people who made the requirements said 18 years old is the requirement and it's 3 months till your birthday, so no grading"
In a nutshell, yes, they wait. All of this, of course, should be told to the parents, child, adult student, in the beginning. Personally, I don't think that anyone should expect rank. If/when it happens, it happens, period. Like I said earlier, people are more concerned with whats around their waist, instead of making sure that they look sharp, can perform, can perform under stress, can adapt to whats presented to them without thinking. In the end, its the skill, not the belt that is going to save their butt, when the poop hits the fan. :) I dont care if you have 30 stripes, if you can't do the material, because you were in a rush to get the next belt, not only did you get your ass kicked, but you wasted all that time training.
So going on this, then its ok to have a 10yo 1st degree BB, a 12yo 2nd degree, a 15yo 3rd degree, and an 19yo 4th degree?
Yes, it is, IF they are a reasonable proficiency, and meet all the non-arbitrary requirements.
That is using what, IMO, should be the standard. In other words, you wait the amount of years for the degree you're going for. Technically, if that wasn't used, then you could have a very young, high ranking BB. Again, I ask, this is what we want in the arts? We could also look at what proficient means. To be able to do the material. To have a basic understanding. To have an above average understanding. What do we want to see from the BB? Keep in mind, that these people may be called upon to teach. Are they capable of understanding enough, to not only teach, but to answer questions they may face?
If that is your requirement for a grading then they are capable. That is the argument there, make the grading requirement understanding and ability to teach if that's what you want BBs to do, not make the age 18 and hope they have those qualities just because they're a certain age.
If you're asked 10 questions about a technique, and you can answer only 3 of them vs. someone who answers 8 of them, who has the better understanding?
Ask those questions in the grading, don't assume they know them because they are older. Again I said base it on quality not on age and you go straight back to quality.
In a nutshell, yes, they wait. All of this, of course, should be told to the parents, child, adult student, in the beginning. Personally, I don't think that anyone should expect rank. If/when it happens, it happens, period. Like I said earlier, people are more concerned with whats around their waist, instead of making sure that they look sharp, can perform, can perform under stress, can adapt to whats presented to them without thinking. In the end, its the skill, not the belt that is going to save their butt, when the poop hits the fan. :) I dont care if you have 30 stripes, if you can't do the material, because you were in a rush to get the next belt, not only did you get your ass kicked, but you wasted all that time training.
Please read what I am actually writing. This is the guy who knows the material and you say things like this makes me think you barely skimmed over what I wrote. He didn't expect to grade, he was just ready to grade, we didn't mention his caring of whether he was moving up or not, more that a student will lose enthusiasm because of an arbitrary barrier.
Carol
07-08-2009, 02:55 AM
... more that a student will lose enthusiasm because of an arbitrary barrier.
I have yet to meet a child that has lost their enthusiasm about driving, because they have not met the state's age limits.....or even because they are technically old enough but their parents are not yet prepared to sign off.
If a child's maturity is such that they may quite the arts over being old enough to get what they wanna get, then perhaps that child doesn't yet have the maturity to wear a black belt.
I have yet to meet a child that has lost their enthusiasm about driving, because they have not met the state's age limits.....or even because they are technically old enough but their parents are not yet prepared to sign off.
If a child's maturity is such that they may quite the arts over being old enough to get what they wanna get, then perhaps that child doesn't yet have the maturity to wear a black belt.
I would argue that a driving analogy does not hold up. Firstly the actual loss of enthusiasm is not really in question here, as it DOES happen, people will get disenheartened/frustrated with training and such if they are excelling and not progressing, and is the reason for a number of gifted academic programs funded by governments too.
I think the main difference is that it is clearly understood the reasoning behind having an arbitrary age barrier for driving, is due to a government's inability to deal with it on a case by case basis. Whereas an instructor has that ability to view it on a more personal or case by case level. There is also the fact that black belt is an arbitrary measure itself.
ceaer
07-08-2009, 10:55 AM
I have yet to meet a child that has lost their enthusiasm about driving, because they have not met the state's age limits.....or even because they are technically old enough but their parents are not yet prepared to sign off.
If a child's maturity is such that they may quite the arts over being old enough to get what they wanna get, then perhaps that child doesn't yet have the maturity to wear a black belt.
When I turned 16 I was quite excited that I could finally get my learner's permit. However, due to issues such as both my parents working and the DMV closing before they got home and not being open on weekends, it was about 6-8 months before I actually got my permit. Honestly, in that time my enthusiasm about learning to drive just went right out the window. I had been excited thinking "I can get my permit tomorrow!" and then I gradually got less excited as I had to wait longer and longer until I just stopped caring about it.
Also, regarding waiting for a belt promotion, I don't think that the thought process is so much "I want a black belt for the sake of having a black belt" but more "I want a black belt so I can learn new material and progress in my art." If Joey is mature enough and proficient enough at 16 to move on to more complex material or move on to learning weapons (some schools only start weapons at black belt) but is told he needs to wait 2 years for that material, I think it's understandable that he would become frustrated and bored and lose his enthusiasm.
Someone else used a gifted child analogy; if I'm in 8th grade and I know all the 8th grade material backwards and forwards and I'm able and ready for 10th grade material, and mature enough to participate in 10th grade classes, is it fair to make me wait 2 years to learn it? To make me learn things I already know over and over for 2 years just because I'm not the usual age to be in 10th grade? Most people would say no, that isn't fair to the child and will seriously hurt their enthusiasm for school and for learning. That's why there are gifted programs and why some children skip grades, and most people see those as good things, or at least not as problems. So why not apply the same logic to Joey?
Wo Fat
07-08-2009, 10:57 AM
While I appreciate organisations' attempts at standardisation, how can they apply age criteria (eg. no 2nd deg until 23 or over) without appearing completely and utterly arbitrary??? I think favouring standardisation over the grass-roots instructor's descretion is a ridiculous idea.
As a guideline, yes fine, and but as a organisation's statute or dictate, I could not agree at all with it.
The only criteria for a grade surely is that the student can demonstrate a set level of proficiency. Age? What has that to do with anything? If an organisation insists on having minimum age-limits, then it must surely also apply upper age-limits too?
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna
On the flip side, there are plenty of 12-year olds who think it's ridiculous that they can't go down to Wal-Mart and purchase a firearm on their own. While that particular child's parent might believe that his son is perfectly capable of owning and carrying a firearm, society has determined that he's too young to handle that kind of responsibility.
Similarly, there are organizations who believe that a 10-year old is ill-equipped to handle the responsibilities of being a Black Belt. And personally, if I'm going to award someone a Black Belt, it's because they've demonstrated that they can effectively defend themselves. Not just remember their katas and their one-steps; not just come to class with a good attitude; not just make their tuition payments; not just being able to be a good point-fighter.
So while there are instructors who believe that 10-year olds make great Black Belts, the reality is that said 10-year old is in for a rude awakening should she ever have to defend herself against a real attacker.
Yes, it is, IF they are a reasonable proficiency, and meet all the non-arbitrary requirements.
Ok, so going on this, if there should be no standard, and the person should be able to test, then realistically, you could have a 10th degree BB who isn't even 40yrs old. I dont know, maybe its just me, but I always picture someone who is a GM, as an older person, not younger.
If that is your requirement for a grading then they are capable. That is the argument there, make the grading requirement understanding and ability to teach if that's what you want BBs to do, not make the age 18 and hope they have those qualities just because they're a certain age.
So a 10yo 3rd degree BB is going to have the same understanding as a 35yo 3rd degree?
Ask those questions in the grading, don't assume they know them because they are older. Again I said base it on quality not on age and you go straight back to quality.
Because common sense should tell you that a child is not going to understand something the way an adult will. Lets use school as another example. If the child doesnt know basic math, how the hell are they going to know algebra? Trig? Calc? When a child is learning to write, don't they learn the letters, first, how to spell, link them together, etc., before asking them to write an essay paper?
Please read what I am actually writing. This is the guy who knows the material and you say things like this makes me think you barely skimmed over what I wrote. He didn't expect to grade, he was just ready to grade, we didn't mention his caring of whether he was moving up or not, more that a student will lose enthusiasm because of an arbitrary barrier.
I'm getting the impression that you're getting upset. Is this perhaps because you are against what I, and a few others are saying, because perhaps you fall into the category that I'm talking about? Maybe you do, maybe you dont, I dont know, but you seem very aggitated. Oh well...back to the thread. Regarding what you just said. Lets break this down:
In response to something Jenna said, I replied:
"As for damping the enthusiasm...you explain to the child why he/she was held back. I'm doing my part, which is to teach. They need to do their part and practice."
to which you said:
"I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that by dampening the enthusiasm was actually for the more gifted child (Joey), not the one who didn't work hard (Jack). So the reason you'd be explaining to him would be along the lines of "You've put in the hard work, you know all your material, you're enthusiastic, but the people who made the requirements said 18 years old is the requirement and it's 3 months till your birthday, so no grading"
I then replied:
"In a nutshell, yes, they wait. All of this, of course, should be told to the parents, child, adult student, in the beginning. Personally, I don't think that anyone should expect rank. If/when it happens, it happens, period. Like I said earlier, people are more concerned with whats around their waist, instead of making sure that they look sharp, can perform, can perform under stress, can adapt to whats presented to them without thinking. In the end, its the skill, not the belt that is going to save their butt, when the poop hits the fan. :) I dont care if you have 30 stripes, if you can't do the material, because you were in a rush to get the next belt, not only did you get your ass kicked, but you wasted all that time training."
I feel that during the initial sign-up phase, how testing works needs to be explained. I've been teaching for quite some time, and I've had many people, kids, adults, and parents, all ask about the testing, when they may be ready, etc. In many schools, there is somewhat of a timeframe, a basic idea to give. Ex: It should take 3 mos to go from white to yellow. That doesnt mean the person will be ready to test. Yet its assumed by many that they will be. The gifted child may be ready in 2mos, but if the standard is 3, then he/she waits.
This is probably why I'm not crazy about kids as young as 3 and 4, joining up. However, for those that do have a 16yo requirement for BB, do those schools allow 4yr olds to join? If so, I'm sure, they don't allow them to test so fast that they're 10 and ready for black. Some give a Jr. BB instead. They're still learning, have something that gives them the drive to continue to train hard, and when they're old enough, they take the adult BB test. I'd much rather see that, the Jr. BB, instead of a 12yo 2nd degree running around. I know the JRBB isn't on everybodies top 10 fav. list of things.
Everyone looks forward to getting a promotion, even in the real world. But, nothing should be expected. And if you stop and think about it, there should be no issue with the gifted child having to wait another 3mos, due to the fact that if they were really examined like they should be, prior to testing, I'm sure there may be something that could use polish. I've had people perform just fine under no stress, yet, when they know they're really being looked at, they start to crumble. When the attack is loose and relaxed, they do the tech. just fine, yet when the punch is really coming and if they don't move, they're gonna get hit, they crumble.
There are ways to slow people down. If you haven't figured out what they are, I dont know what to say. Its one thing to just run thru the material from A-Z, but when you really get to the meat of whats involved, it shouldn't be that simple.
I would argue that a driving analogy does not hold up. Firstly the actual loss of enthusiasm is not really in question here, as it DOES happen, people will get disenheartened/frustrated with training and such if they are excelling and not progressing, and is the reason for a number of gifted academic programs funded by governments too.
I think the main difference is that it is clearly understood the reasoning behind having an arbitrary age barrier for driving, is due to a government's inability to deal with it on a case by case basis. Whereas an instructor has that ability to view it on a more personal or case by case level. There is also the fact that black belt is an arbitrary measure itself.
So, just like you feel that a 10yo should be able to be a 3rd degree BB, you're saying that a 14yo should be able to drive? Case by case basis...ok, so the 16yo may suck, but the 15yo may not, so we'll let him get his DL, but wait, the 14yo is a gifted kid, so we'll give him a CDL too.
To add onto this...this is why in many states, there are limits on what new drivers can do, because they do not have the experience.
On the flip side, there are plenty of 12-year olds who think it's ridiculous that they can't go down to Wal-Mart and purchase a firearm on their own. While that particular child's parent might believe that his son is perfectly capable of owning and carrying a firearm, society has determined that he's too young to handle that kind of responsibility.
Similarly, there are organizations who believe that a 10-year old is ill-equipped to handle the responsibilities of being a Black Belt. And personally, if I'm going to award someone a Black Belt, it's because they've demonstrated that they can effectively defend themselves. Not just remember their katas and their one-steps; not just come to class with a good attitude; not just make their tuition payments; not just being able to be a good point-fighter.
So while there are instructors who believe that 10-year olds make great Black Belts, the reality is that said 10-year old is in for a rude awakening should she ever have to defend herself against a real attacker.
QFT!!!! My thoughts exactly!
ceaer
07-08-2009, 01:07 PM
So, just like you feel that a 10yo should be able to be a 3rd degree BB, you're saying that a 14yo should be able to drive? Case by case basis...ok, so the 16yo may suck, but the 15yo may not, so we'll let him get his DL, but wait, the 14yo is a gifted kid, so we'll give him a CDL too.
To add onto this...this is why in many states, there are limits on what new drivers can do, because they do not have the experience.
In some states, 14 year olds can get learner's permits. In all of those states, there is one big thing in common: they are largely agricultural. Kids have been driving tractors and whatnot around their parent's farms for years. They have an understanding of machinery and the principles of driving that someone from a city or suburb wouldn't, because they haven't had the exposure to it that the rural kids have.
In those states, they find it reasonable that 14 year olds can get learner's permits, because they generally have the background and knowledge (and experience) needed. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a 14 year old, even a 15 year old, can get a learner's permit, but if I lived in an area like that, where that was the norm, chances are I wouldn't think twice about it.
Not to mention that you need to pass a permit test and a road test in order to be licensed. Granted, some people who pass the tests are not responsible drivers, but there are 30, 40, and 50 year olds who drive much more recklessly and dangerously than I do (at age 18).
Also, I can't see how a 10 year old could get a 3rd degree black belt. The average time to bb in most arts is roughly 5 years, and then 2 years to 2nd degree, and 3 to third. So at least 10 years to 3rd degree. How would a 10 year old have 10 years of experience in the art? (This isn't even getting into how good they are).
I don't think anyone is saying that children/teenagers don't have to spend the time in grade in order to get their bb. I disagree with jumping anyone, child, teenager, or adult, through the ranks without meeting the school's requirements.
Having said that, my personal view is, if they have spent the time in grade, met the other requirements to be eligible to test, and are proficient with their material, they should be allowed to test (that does not mean they pass, of course, but they should have the chance). Going to the Joey example, he's 16 and is ready by his instructor's standards to get his black belt. That implies that he has already spent his time-in-grade, however long that was for his school. Why should he have to wait an EXTRA two years before he has the chance at testing?
Ok, so going on this, if there should be no standard, and the person should be able to test, then realistically, you could have a 10th degree BB who isn't even 40yrs old. I dont know, maybe its just me, but I always picture someone who is a GM, as an older person, not younger.
Any good system can have a minimum age that a rank is attainable without making up ages at which you can or can't grade, but by instead having the experience required to actually complete the requirements of the test/promotion. Anyway I think a younger person who is more knowledgeable and proficient in their particular art than an older person SHOULD be ranked higher, regardless of what your preconceived notions of a GM are.
So a 10yo 3rd degree BB is going to have the same understanding as a 35yo 3rd degree?
Probably not. And that's has very little to do with what I said.
Because common sense should tell you that a child is not going to understand something the way an adult will. Lets use school as another example. If the child doesnt know basic math, how the hell are they going to know algebra? Trig? Calc? When a child is learning to write, don't they learn the letters, first, how to spell, link them together, etc., before asking them to write an essay paper?
This is not what I am saying at all. I am saying once a child has got basic maths down, then you move them on to more advanced maths. You don't say "oh no, you have to be 12 to do advanced maths"
So basically (so you can understand it) I would have this in an ideal system:
Set out the various things your students should be at each level. Whatever that may be, technique xyz, knowledge of blah, ability to teach, discipline, basically whatever floats your boat.
Design tests for each level that encompass each of the things you planned in step one, for things that can't be assessed during a test, leave up to the instructor's discretion.
Train, teach, test.
Nowhere in there was a bias for or against any age group. Easy.
So, just like you feel that a 10yo should be able to be a 3rd degree BB, you're saying that a 14yo should be able to drive? Case by case basis...ok, so the 16yo may suck, but the 15yo may not, so we'll let him get his DL, but wait, the 14yo is a gifted kid, so we'll give him a CDL too.
To add onto this...this is why in many states, there are limits on what new drivers can do, because they do not have the experience.
While I feel a 10 year old should be able to be a 3rd Dan if they have the appropriate skills, knowledge etc, I would also feel that this would be a superhuman feat for any 10 year old to accomplish. Basically they are allowed to, but they can't.
In regards to drivers, a trained professional who has dealt with the person in question for a considerable amount of time, would be able to make a correct decision regarding the ability of the person to drive. In most cases a 14 year old would be deemed unfit, most likely because of maturity, but if this particular professional deemed that a 14 year old was ready to be driving I would feel confident in that 14 year old's ability to drive. On the other side of the coin, a lot more 18 year old's and such would be turned down from being allowed to drive due to THEIR lack of maturity. But what I was actually arguing was that this particular approach is unfeasible for a government, but not for a MA school.
Ken Morgan
07-08-2009, 02:06 PM
The smartest people in the world are 14 year old girls and 17 year old boys. They know everything and have all the answers.
Establish the criteria for your organization and have done with it. If the students or the parents complain, then the grade is more important to them then the art. Things that have value, should be difficult to achieve.
We are so hung up in the West on grades, “Are you a black belt?” is the first thing asked by anyone who finds out we do MA. At my age, I shrug and say, “Yeah thereabouts, anything to eat?” If I was 30 years younger I’d be telling people I’m a black belt, today? Who cares?
When we look back on ourselves five, ten, fifteen, even twenty five years ago, we were kids who had no life experiences, no life skills, how could we truly value anything?
In some states, 14 year olds can get learner's permits. In all of those states, there is one big thing in common: they are largely agricultural. Kids have been driving tractors and whatnot around their parent's farms for years. They have an understanding of machinery and the principles of driving that someone from a city or suburb wouldn't, because they haven't had the exposure to it that the rural kids have.
In those states, they find it reasonable that 14 year olds can get learner's permits, because they generally have the background and knowledge (and experience) needed. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a 14 year old, even a 15 year old, can get a learner's permit, but if I lived in an area like that, where that was the norm, chances are I wouldn't think twice about it.
Not to mention that you need to pass a permit test and a road test in order to be licensed. Granted, some people who pass the tests are not responsible drivers, but there are 30, 40, and 50 year olds who drive much more recklessly and dangerously than I do (at age 18).
I've heard of the same thing...kids in rural areas, driving vehicles on large, open areas of farm land. And yes, I agree with the cases of older people with poor driving skills.
Also, I can't see how a 10 year old could get a 3rd degree black belt. The average time to bb in most arts is roughly 5 years, and then 2 years to 2nd degree, and 3 to third. So at least 10 years to 3rd degree. How would a 10 year old have 10 years of experience in the art? (This isn't even getting into how good they are).
Neither can I, but there seems to be at least one person in this thread that thinks otherwise.
I don't think anyone is saying that children/teenagers don't have to spend the time in grade in order to get their bb. I disagree with jumping anyone, child, teenager, or adult, through the ranks without meeting the school's requirements.
Agreed.
Having said that, my personal view is, if they have spent the time in grade, met the other requirements to be eligible to test, and are proficient with their material, they should be allowed to test (that does not mean they pass, of course, but they should have the chance). Going to the Joey example, he's 16 and is ready by his instructor's standards to get his black belt. That implies that he has already spent his time-in-grade, however long that was for his school. Why should he have to wait an EXTRA two years before he has the chance at testing?
In the schools that I have been a part of, the requirements for young kids is usually half of what teens/adults would learn. That being said, this indicates that at some point, the child, once they get older and move up in rank, will need to learn what they didnt get before. This is why the Jr. BB is added, so once they get that belt, they then go back and learn the rest of the material. By that time, they should be old enough and ready for the adult BB.
Any good system can have a minimum age that a rank is attainable without making up ages at which you can or can't grade, but by instead having the experience required to actually complete the requirements of the test/promotion. Anyway I think a younger person who is more knowledgeable and proficient in their particular art than an older person SHOULD be ranked higher, regardless of what your preconceived notions of a GM are.
Its a joke to see someone who is not even in their teens, running around with a 2nd, 3rd or 4th degree. There are arts that promote that, and IMO, they're the laughing stock of the martial arts, and no, I'm not the only one who's said that. A 20yo 6th degree BB? Are you kidding me. Hey, if you think thats ok, keep serving up those fries and cokes with the belts. :D
Probably not. And that's has very little to do with what I said.
Actually yes it does, but I guess you missed that.
This is not what I am saying at all. I am saying once a child has got basic maths down, then you move them on to more advanced maths. You don't say "oh no, you have to be 12 to do advanced maths"
So basically (so you can understand it) I would have this in an ideal system:
Set out the various things your students should be at each level. Whatever that may be, technique xyz, knowledge of blah, ability to teach, discipline, basically whatever floats your boat.
Design tests for each level that encompass each of the things you planned in step one, for things that can't be assessed during a test, leave up to the instructor's discretion.
Train, teach, test.
Nowhere in there was a bias for or against any age group. Easy.
And there are certain things taught in each grade level. If 3rd grade, for example is basic math, I doubt they're going to bring in algebra just because a few kids get it faster than the rest. As for the rest of your post, I've addressed my thoughts on 3 and 4yr olds in the arts so no need to say it again.
Out of curiosity, your profile lists you at 18yrs old and a 3rd in TKD. When did you start training?
While I feel a 10 year old should be able to be a 3rd Dan if they have the appropriate skills, knowledge etc, I would also feel that this would be a superhuman feat for any 10 year old to accomplish. Basically they are allowed to, but they can't.
Personally, I'd probably laugh my ass off, if I walked into a school and saw what you just described. A 10yr old 3rd degree BB!!! So again, by your line of thinking, by the time the kid is 20, he'll be a 7th or 8th. And thats normal to you?
Personally, I'd probably laugh my ass off, if I walked into a school and saw what you just described. A 10yr old 3rd degree BB!!! So again, by your line of thinking, by the time the kid is 20, he'll be a 7th or 8th. And thats normal to you?
You really need to stop being so thick, and read. I said it wouldn't happen. But if it did happen that 3rd dan would be as good as you'd expect from a 30 year old 3rd dan. So you could laugh at him, but he'd still probably outclass you in all ways in the martial art in question.
Its a joke to see someone who is not even in their teens, running around with a 2nd, 3rd or 4th degree. There are arts that promote that, and IMO, they're the laughing stock of the martial arts, and no, I'm not the only one who's said that. A 20yo 6th degree BB? Are you kidding me. Hey, if you think thats ok, keep serving up those fries and cokes with the belts. :D
OK again please read. What I described would prevent preteens and even teens getting their BB, by the requirements of the test alone.
Actually yes it does, but I guess you missed that.
http://www.readingcomprehensionconnection.com/
And there are certain things taught in each grade level. If 3rd grade, for example is basic math, I doubt they're going to bring in algebra just because a few kids get it faster than the rest. As for the rest of your post, I've addressed my thoughts on 3 and 4yr olds in the arts so no need to say it again.
I didn't say anything about 3 and 4 year olds. And they do bring in more advanced maths for kids who have an understanding of the current maths, because governments know how to foster growth and not hold back gifted children (most of the time). So there goes your point.
You really need to stop being so thick, and read. I said it wouldn't happen. But if it did happen that 3rd dan would be as good as you'd expect from a 30 year old 3rd dan. So you could laugh at him, but he'd still probably outclass you in all ways in the martial art in question.
Dude, I suggest you chill out a bit, before you get yourself booted from this forum! You claim to be 18, maybe you should try acting like it! I think I'm hitting a nerve with you, seeing that TKD is known for handing out black belt ranks to people that are way too young. Kinda Mcdojoish, if ya ask me.
You just said here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1196025&postcount=24) that you see nothing wrong with a 10yo being a 3rd degree black belt. I highly doubt that the 10yo would have the same comprehension of things as an adult BB would. Outclass me?? Dude, I've been in the arts over 20yrs, and I've yet to be outclassed by a 10yo.
You said in an earlier post that you think it should be based on quality, not age. I too, have said that you will have your 'rare gems' in some students. But I still think that age needs to play a part, otherwise, if its not and its just based on quality, then you will in fact have very young, high ranking BBs.
BTW, let me ask you this...what is the fixation some people have with what belt is around their waist? Why do some feel that they need to be X degree by X age? Its not the belt thats going to help you when you need to defend yourself. Trust me, I've seen some pretty crappy black belts and I often wonder how the hell they got the belt to begin with.
OK again please read. What I described would prevent preteens and even teens getting their BB, by the requirements of the test alone.
The requirements of the test you listed:
Set out the various things your students should be at each level. Whatever that may be, technique xyz, knowledge of blah, ability to teach, discipline, basically whatever floats your boat.
Design tests for each level that encompass each of the things you planned in step one, for things that can't be assessed during a test, leave up to the instructor's discretion.
Train, teach, test.
Nowhere in there was a bias for or against any age group. Easy.
I take it there is no age requirements or time frame for any belt level? Please explain to me, how a 10yo, a 5 yo or 4 yo, is going to have as solid of an understanding of any of the material, compared to someone who is older?
http://www.readingcomprehensionconnection.com/
Smartass tone noted. Like I said earlier dude, you're new here, please take the time to read the rules. Understand its a forum, and things are often misunderstood due to the fact that impressions will differ from reading something vs. hearing it live. As I also said, I think I'm hitting a bit of a nerve, due to your age and rank. Chill out dude.
I didn't say anything about 3 and 4 year olds. And they do bring in more advanced maths for kids who have an understanding of the current maths, because governments know how to foster growth and not hold back gifted children (most of the time). So there goes your point.
You take the average class of 4yr olds. Out of that group of say, 15 kids, I'd bet there would be 1, if that, that is above average. I've been training and teaching a hell of alot longer than you and this has been proven many times. I'm not saying there isn't a rare gem, but its just that, rare!
But thats ok ACJ...keep on promoting those kids with no age requirements, and the world will be full of 20yo 7th and 8th degree black belts. Yes, those belts do come with fries and a coke! :D Long live the McDojos! LOL!
Andrew Green
07-09-2009, 01:54 AM
I have a firm belief that the whole grading system needs a complete overhaul and should return to the early 1900’s when only 3 types of certification was available, namely, competent, advanced and teacher.
I think he's getting close there.
A few interesting things:
http://www.anchoragebjj.com/faq.php
How does your belt system work?
We use the traditional standards for BJJ which is 8-12 years to get to Black Belt. This works out to roughly 2 years per belt for most people. BJJ is unlike many other martial arts on the level of proficiency necessary to reach Black Belt.
Even within BJJ schools you’ll see the more revenue driven schools award belts much more quickly (for student retention) than performance driven schools. We believe giving out easy belts is ultimately to the detriment of students when they realize they are not on the level of other schools and their training is ineffective against new students.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjj#Belt_promotion
Read Grading
http://www.taporsnap.com/bjj.htm
Read Grading: Note in this link, it states the typical time frame, however it does list a few of the rare gems. I'd say those are the exception, not the norm.
Quality, not quantity.
You just said here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1196025&postcount=24) that you see nothing wrong with a 10yo being a 3rd degree black belt.
Please reread. "While I feel a 10 year old should be able to be a 3rd Dan if they have the appropriate skills, knowledge etc, I would also feel that this would be a superhuman feat for any 10 year old to accomplish. Basically they are allowed to, but they can't."
I highly doubt that the 10yo would have the same comprehension of things as an adult BB would. Outclass me?? Dude, I've been in the arts over 20yrs, and I've yet to be outclassed by a 10yo.
Please reread, I've said numerous times that they would have the skills IF they passed the test, IF the test is designed well.
You said in an earlier post that you think it should be based on quality, not age. I too, have said that you will have your 'rare gems' in some students. But I still think that age needs to play a part, otherwise, if its not and its just based on quality, then you will in fact have very young, high ranking BBs.
No you wouldn't, the young ones WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PASS THE TEST. If they did, they'd be good enough to be the rank
BTW, let me ask you this...what is the fixation some people have with what belt is around their waist? Why do some feel that they need to be X degree by X age? Its not the belt thats going to help you when you need to defend yourself. Trust me, I've seen some pretty crappy black belts and I often wonder how the hell they got the belt to begin with.
And what I've been proposing is to get rid of the crappy black belts.
The requirements of the test you listed:
Set out the various things your students should be at each level. Whatever that may be, technique xyz, knowledge of blah, ability to teach, discipline, basically whatever floats your boat.
Design tests for each level that encompass each of the things you planned in step one, for things that can't be assessed during a test, leave up to the instructor's discretion.
Train, teach, test.
Nowhere in there was a bias for or against any age group. Easy.
I take it there is no age requirements or time frame for any belt level? Please explain to me, how a 10yo, a 5 yo or 4 yo, is going to have as solid of an understanding of any of the material, compared to someone who is older?
They wouldn't and thus wouldn't grade.
Smartass tone noted. Like I said earlier dude, you're new here, please take the time to read the rules. Understand its a forum, and things are often misunderstood due to the fact that impressions will differ from reading something vs. hearing it live. As I also said, I think I'm hitting a bit of a nerve, due to your age and rank. Chill out dude.
I don't think there are any rules about posting links to reading sites, but sorry if I am mistaker. The main nerve you are hitting has nothing to do with my age or rank, it is more to do with your inability to reply with anything resembling a coherent argument or even addressing what was said.
You take the average class of 4yr olds. Out of that group of say, 15 kids, I'd bet there would be 1, if that, that is above average. I've been training and teaching a hell of alot longer than you and this has been proven many times. I'm not saying there isn't a rare gem, but its just that, rare!
But thats ok ACJ...keep on promoting those kids with no age requirements, and the world will be full of 20yo 7th and 8th degree black belts. Yes, those belts do come with fries and a coke! :D Long live the McDojos! LOL!
Pfft you take the above average 4 year old and they still aren't ready for yellow belt, I don't know why you keep on saying that I'm promoting younger students through to BB. I never said I was, I never implied I was, I just said I was looking at their skill level not their age.
Lets see if we can sort this out here. My argument, is that I, and a few others from what I can gather, feel there should be age requirements for rank. I'm not crazy about a 4yo in a MA class, however, I've accepted that reality. You are saying that it should be quality and how well you know the material that should make the difference, not age. Am I correct so far? If not please clarify what you mean.
So, if that is the case, that its quality, not age, then you and I agree, so far on the quality part. We still on the same page? As I've said, you can have a 10yo, who is in the above agerage group, the gem, who trains his ass off daily, for an hour and a half. He works stances, making sure they're super strong, great power in everything, from kata to techniques. He knows his material inside and out. He started training when he was 4, so lets assume, for the sake of argument, that its 6yrs to black. As I said, this kid is sharp, so his quality is right up there. Am I safe to say that you feel he should be promoted to black? Again, he meets all the requirements and looks like he's been training for 50yrs. If this is not what you mean, please clarify, because I can point to a few posts of yours, where this is the impression that I'm getting. I'll give an example. Here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1195878&postcount=12). Your 1st paragraph:
What I think is being said is that it is not regardless of quality, just age. Think about what a black belt means, it varies with a lot of people, but it usually represents a certain knowledge and proficiency. Adding an arbitrary age requirement means it changes the meaning of a black belt (or any other belt) from: This means I'm proficient in my art. To: This means I'm proficient in my art and I'm proficient at being over 18.
I take this as you saying that age shouldn't matter, just the quality. Am I right so far? If not, please clarify what you meant. To further enhance this, you made your point again here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1195898&postcount=14). You quoted me asking you, if it was ok to have a 10yo 1st deg., a 12yo 2nd, a 15yo 3rd, and a 19yo 4th, all to which you said yes, it was ok, as long as they met the requirements and were reasonably proficient. Am I correct so far?
Moving on....so, going on all of this, assuming I'm right so far, then they can continue to advance in the belt ranks, regardless of age, but as long as they meet the standards for the material, they look sharp, etc. Right so far? So, am I safe to assume that?
Later on, you say this (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1196025&postcount=24). I take this as you acknowledging the rare gems, but also that its unlikely, or in your words, a superhuman feat, to actually do this. They're allowed to test, but can't because it would be a superhuman feat, or in my words, they'd have to be one of those rare gems. Am I correct so far? If not, please clarify. :)
So, if it'd be a superhuman feat, in essance, the child is going to have to wait, thus making them age, until they can meet those standards, but again, its a superhuman feat, so I take that as it not happening all that often. So, if thats the case, why not just make them wait, let them mature, let them get that deeper understanding? If its a superhuman feat, chances are its probably not going to happen that often, right? Am I understanding you correctly so far? If not, please clarify for me. :)
I'll await your reply, but in closing, I'll say this. Regarding your little link here. (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1196324&postcount=30) Nope, nothing wrong with posting links, however, I took that as a snide remark from you, considering in more than one post, you've said that I'm not comprehending you.
Lets see if we can sort this out here. My argument, is that I, and a few others from what I can gather, feel there should be age requirements for rank. I'm not crazy about a 4yo in a MA class, however, I've accepted that reality. You are saying that it should be quality and how well you know the material that should make the difference, not age. Am I correct so far? If not please clarify what you mean.
So, if that is the case, that its quality, not age, then you and I agree, so far on the quality part. We still on the same page? As I've said, you can have a 10yo, who is in the above agerage group, the gem, who trains his ass off daily, for an hour and a half. He works stances, making sure they're super strong, great power in everything, from kata to techniques. He knows his material inside and out. He started training when he was 4, so lets assume, for the sake of argument, that its 6yrs to black. As I said, this kid is sharp, so his quality is right up there. Am I safe to say that you feel he should be promoted to black? Again, he meets all the requirements and looks like he's been training for 50yrs. If this is not what you mean, please clarify, because I can point to a few posts of yours, where this is the impression that I'm getting. I'll give an example. Here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1195878&postcount=12). Your 1st paragraph:
I take this as you saying that age shouldn't matter, just the quality. Am I right so far? If not, please clarify what you meant. To further enhance this, you made your point again here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1195898&postcount=14). You quoted me asking you, if it was ok to have a 10yo 1st deg., a 12yo 2nd, a 15yo 3rd, and a 19yo 4th, all to which you said yes, it was ok, as long as they met the requirements and were reasonably proficient. Am I correct so far?
Moving on....so, going on all of this, assuming I'm right so far, then they can continue to advance in the belt ranks, regardless of age, but as long as they meet the standards for the material, they look sharp, etc. Right so far? So, am I safe to assume that?
Later on, you say this (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1196025&postcount=24). I take this as you acknowledging the rare gems, but also that its unlikely, or in your words, a superhuman feat, to actually do this. They're allowed to test, but can't because it would be a superhuman feat, or in my words, they'd have to be one of those rare gems. Am I correct so far? If not, please clarify. :)
So, if it'd be a superhuman feat, in essance, the child is going to have to wait, thus making them age, until they can meet those standards, but again, its a superhuman feat, so I take that as it not happening all that often. So, if thats the case, why not just make them wait, let them mature, let them get that deeper understanding? If its a superhuman feat, chances are its probably not going to happen that often, right? Am I understanding you correctly so far? If not, please clarify for me. :)
I'll await your reply, but in closing, I'll say this. Regarding your little link here. (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1196324&postcount=30) Nope, nothing wrong with posting links, however, I took that as a snide remark from you, considering in more than one post, you've said that I'm not comprehending you.
Now we seem more on the same page. What you have said is largely in line with what I was thinking, with a few minor clarifications.
As I said in one post when deciding the requirements for each belt there can be a whole range of criteria that a teacher could add to a system if they so chose. These things go beyond just physical skill and knowledge. For instance if the designer of a system was to decide black belts should be able to teach, then the instructor would only pass a student able to teach. Or an instructor could decide that a black belt is mature, and would only grade someone to black belt when they are mature (that is, rather than when they're supposed to be mature, e.g 16/18/21 etc.).
Further holding a child back from grading too early, and a big part of the reason I would not start teaching younger children the main syllabus, is the inability for their body to practice certain techniques safely, thus limiting what syllabus could be taught to them, but I also take into account that people develop at different ages and thus it is easier to look at each child's physical and emotional development rather than going "10. 10 is the minimum age, no exceptions."
Finally, I am not against holding people back from their grading, but when the only reason is their age, I think that's just silly.
ceaer
07-09-2009, 10:00 AM
In the schools that I have been a part of, the requirements for young kids is usually half of what teens/adults would learn. That being said, this indicates that at some point, the child, once they get older and move up in rank, will need to learn what they didnt get before. This is why the Jr. BB is added, so once they get that belt, they then go back and learn the rest of the material. By that time, they should be old enough and ready for the adult BB.
Yes, my school uses junior bbs for just that reason, the kids do not learn as much material as the adults do, and they have to "catch up" before they can test for shodan. However, depending on the age of the kid when they get their junior black, they might be caught up with the material requirements for adult shodan before they're 18. And if they know the material and are ready and have their time-in-grade, they can test.
What are your feelings about that? I agree with you that children shouldn't go directly to shodan, due to the different requirements for children and teenagers/adults. But say they get their junior at 12, and are ready for their shodan when they're 15. Would you allow them to test? Or would they still be too young in your view?
ap Oweyn
07-09-2009, 10:41 AM
Ugh. Mostly, this thread just makes me glad that I'm not part of a belt system anymore. I understand the basic drive to have one, but I feel like there's got to be a less "loaded" way to set goals and recognize accomplishments. Because the belt system, to my mind, has a tendency to collapse under its own weight.
Twin Fist
07-09-2009, 10:48 AM
aint no kid, Bruce lee jr or not getting a black belt from me before he/she is 16.
ever
not gonna happen
if it costs me students, i dont care. I dont do this for a living anyway.
Now, my own instructor disagrees with me on this, but then she has to pay rent on a 6000 sq ft dojo.
Now at the end of this month, she is gonna be testing one of her students for 5th Dan
he is 24 yrs old.
And he is Bruce Lee jr. He is AMAZINGLY good. he is at the dojo EVERY DAY
I still dont feel good about it. But thats on her.
Now we seem more on the same page. What you have said is largely in line with what I was thinking, with a few minor clarifications.
At least we're now moving in a positive direction. :)
As I said in one post when deciding the requirements for each belt there can be a whole range of criteria that a teacher could add to a system if they so chose. These things go beyond just physical skill and knowledge. For instance if the designer of a system was to decide black belts should be able to teach, then the instructor would only pass a student able to teach. Or an instructor could decide that a black belt is mature, and would only grade someone to black belt when they are mature (that is, rather than when they're supposed to be mature, e.g 16/18/21 etc.).
In many schools, assisting with classes, is a pre-req. for getting your BB. I started helping when I was a brown belt, and I will freely admit, I was nervous. The assistance went from doing just the warmups, to that as well as the basics, ie: punching, kicking, bag work, etc., to taking a group of lower ranked students and working on their material, to one day, when my inst. told me I was doing it all. Of course, he was on the sidelines to offer aid if needed, but things went smooth. My point of saying all of this, is that taking command of a class, being able to teach in an effective manner, and at the same time, keep things moving, so as to not lose the interest of the students, is IMO, not an easy task. If the person heading the class isn't mature enough, chances are, they will fail at the above mentioned things. This is why I was looking at it from an age point of view. Can a 14yo be mature? There are some that are, and some that are not. As I said in my other post, if it could be a feat to expect a 10, 12, 14, etc yo old to be mature, either way we look at it, theres a good chance they may have to wait until they're older anyways, to reach that maturity level. :)
Further holding a child back from grading too early, and a big part of the reason I would not start teaching younger children the main syllabus, is the inability for their body to practice certain techniques safely, thus limiting what syllabus could be taught to them, but I also take into account that people develop at different ages and thus it is easier to look at each child's physical and emotional development rather than going "10. 10 is the minimum age, no exceptions."
From what I've seen, many schools do limit what is taught. Example...if your typical 4-5yr old class, the required material is cut in half. So at some point, prior to the child reaching BB level, the other half is going to have to be learned. This, I assume, is where the Jr. BB comes in. They get something they can call a BB, even though its not an 'official' BB, they continue to grow and mature, help with classes, and learn the other stuff that will be required for the full BB.
On the other hand, if we look at some highschool and college courses, there are pre-reqs to certain classes. Ex: Completing Spanish 1 before moving onto Spanish 2, even if the student is breezing thru S1 material. They need to meet certain requirements before moving on, so if we apply that to the arts, its really the same thing.
Finally, I am not against holding people back from their grading, but when the only reason is their age, I think that's just silly.
I think this is where I still may be a bit confused. I think we both agreed that it would be a superhuman feat for some kids, to be a certain degree, one reason due to maturity. So, if thats the case, then in essance, they're still going to have to wait until they're older, so if they have to wait, I'm looking at it, as if there is no difference than if we said the child would have to wait. Sure, I will agree that there will be a handfull that will be the exception.
As I said in the beginning when I spoke of teaching and how it takes alot to be able to command a class for a full hour or longer. There has been more than one time, when I've had to 'prove' myself during a teaching session. Now, this isn't necessarily meaning that it was physically, althoug there were times when people insisted that something would not work, and the only way to get that point home, was to have them come up, really take a swing at me, and have me show them. Now, I didn't send them home with a black eye or busted lip, but the message was clear. ;) Is the 13yo 3rd degre BB going to be able to do that? Physically being able to apply the tech. is just 1 part, the other is to also be able to verbally explain the fine points. Again, some may, but some may not, and this was the reason, for me, why I felt that some may look at that young age and high rank, as laughable.
I think this is where I still may be a bit confused. I think we both agreed that it would be a superhuman feat for some kids, to be a certain degree, one reason due to maturity. So, if thats the case, then in essance, they're still going to have to wait until they're older, so if they have to wait, I'm looking at it, as if there is no difference than if we said the child would have to wait. Sure, I will agree that there will be a handfull that will be the exception.
What I'm saying is that they will wait until they are mature enough, but that may come at any age, and we shouldn't try and predetermine what age that may be. And as a result, if I had a very immature 30 year old even, they would still be held back, regardless of their age.
Yes, my school uses junior bbs for just that reason, the kids do not learn as much material as the adults do, and they have to "catch up" before they can test for shodan. However, depending on the age of the kid when they get their junior black, they might be caught up with the material requirements for adult shodan before they're 18. And if they know the material and are ready and have their time-in-grade, they can test.
What are your feelings about that? I agree with you that children shouldn't go directly to shodan, due to the different requirements for children and teenagers/adults. But say they get their junior at 12, and are ready for their shodan when they're 15. Would you allow them to test? Or would they still be too young in your view?
I've seen some kids that were huge for their age, so while they were technically too young for the next class up, they were too big for the class they should be in, so yes, there were times when you'd have a younger, bigger person, move into the next age group, and they did well. :) As for age for adult BB, I had said 16, not 18. Chances are, if they're that good, then they were probably being taught the material needed to catch up.
As for your question on whether or not I'd let the 15yo test...exceptions can always be made. However, in addition to maturity, they're going to have to demonstrate a solid understanding of the material. As others have said, and I have re-enforced, its more than just knowing and being able to do the material. IMHO, black belt level is where the real learning begins. But as you're reaching that level, you should be sharp enough so that the basic things do not need to constantly be harped on, ie: poor stances, sloppy execution of material, etc. I'll use the language classes as an example. Its pretty much expected that when you enter Spanish 2, that you have a solid background of the basics. When you get into S2, you're probably going to get into a deeper level of the speaking, listening and move into writing. If you can't understand the basics, how are you going to learn to write something that you can't even understand by listening?
In closing, I'll say this....I've been training for 20+ yrs. To this day, I'll never understand what the fascination with moving quick thru the material and ranks is. I mean, it almost seems like a competition. I'm at the point now, where I really don't care about rank. When it happens, it happens. Every time I've tested, it was I that was approached. I didn't go up to my teachers and ask when my next rank test was. More importantly, there comes a time, especially once you reach the higher levels, that its not so much a physical test, but what you give back to the art. Teaching, taking the time to work with people before and after class, hosting and giving seminars and overall time in grade. Learning a new tech. or kata, IMO, is a moot point at that level.
artFling
07-12-2009, 12:23 AM
Near as I can tell, ya'll seem to be on the same page. Sometimes on this forum we are comparing apples to oranges. For instance, some arts require a great deal more material to be learned for a grading. Other styles may be more interested in competition than SD and vise-versa. Even within Tae Kwon Do for instance there are many different goals a school may have. But here's the deal that concerns me: a black belt needs to mean something. And of course upper dan belts need to mean more. I think most would agree that 16 years old is a decent age limitation even if you don't stipulate it in your policy. Because if your MA is worth learning, you're going to need to be 16 to have the experience and maturity to handle yourself as a BB. Sure sometimes there is going to me some Martial Genius out there who by the age of 14 1/2 is fully capable and mature to be able to be a Shodan. So fine, make some sort of exception. If he or she is that good then the other students need to be learning from him or her. And their rank should in some way show that. It's all in the way the instructor handles it. Jr BB, probationary BB, learners permit, a special gi, or a funky color of electrical tape on the end of a well earned brown belt. Recognize the student. But in 99 times out of 100, the student is going to be at least 16 years old.
BTW, I think 18 is too old an age limit. Our young people can handle a lot more responsibility than we give them credit for. In fact I think young people crave it and want to be able to handle it. In our society they get the message too often that being young is all about fun. In reality it needs to be about learning to take responsibility.
What I'm saying is that they will wait until they are mature enough, but that may come at any age, and we shouldn't try and predetermine what age that may be. And as a result, if I had a very immature 30 year old even, they would still be held back, regardless of their age.
Points taken. I still can't help but think, that despite the maturity, that it won't look a bit odd, to see a young child with that kind of rank. Thats just me though.
What are your thoughts on time in grade?
Near as I can tell, ya'll seem to be on the same page. Sometimes on this forum we are comparing apples to oranges. For instance, some arts require a great deal more material to be learned for a grading. Other styles may be more interested in competition than SD and vise-versa. Even within Tae Kwon Do for instance there are many different goals a school may have. But here's the deal that concerns me: a black belt needs to mean something. And of course upper dan belts need to mean more. I think most would agree that 16 years old is a decent age limitation even if you don't stipulate it in your policy. Because if your MA is worth learning, you're going to need to be 16 to have the experience and maturity to handle yourself as a BB. Sure sometimes there is going to me some Martial Genius out there who by the age of 14 1/2 is fully capable and mature to be able to be a Shodan. So fine, make some sort of exception. If he or she is that good then the other students need to be learning from him or her. And their rank should in some way show that. It's all in the way the instructor handles it. Jr BB, probationary BB, learners permit, a special gi, or a funky color of electrical tape on the end of a well earned brown belt. Recognize the student. But in 99 times out of 100, the student is going to be at least 16 years old.
BTW, I think 18 is too old an age limit. Our young people can handle a lot more responsibility than we give them credit for. In fact I think young people crave it and want to be able to handle it. In our society they get the message too often that being young is all about fun. In reality it needs to be about learning to take responsibility.
Bold part mine. This is the point that I've been trying to make in my posts. If, in the greater majority of cases, the student will not be mature enough, why not put in the age requirement? If there is a good chance the kid won't be mature enough, then they're going to end up waiting anyways, so.....
Again, in these cases, I'd rather see a JRBB or a probationary BB in place. Its a step below the full BB.
Points taken. I still can't help but think, that despite the maturity, that it won't look a bit odd, to see a young child with that kind of rank. Thats just me though.
What are your thoughts on time in grade?
Yeah it would seem odd, but people should get over, a small thing like something looking odd.
Time in grade should take as long as it requires as for them to become the next belt. Sure they might know all the stuff for red belt, but if they don't act and look like one, they wait. As for higher grades i.e black belt promotions, I believe a set time frame is required, because it is too easy for the black belts to forget what progression at that level means. A lot of the time it is less about learning new techniques or your new form, it is more about learning more about your art, contributing to your art and developing new ideas. IMO.
Near as I can tell, ya'll seem to be on the same page. Sometimes on this forum we are comparing apples to oranges. For instance, some arts require a great deal more material to be learned for a grading. Other styles may be more interested in competition than SD and vise-versa. Even within Tae Kwon Do for instance there are many different goals a school may have. But here's the deal that concerns me: a black belt needs to mean something. And of course upper dan belts need to mean more. I think most would agree that 16 years old is a decent age limitation even if you don't stipulate it in your policy. Because if your MA is worth learning, you're going to need to be 16 to have the experience and maturity to handle yourself as a BB. Sure sometimes there is going to me some Martial Genius out there who by the age of 14 1/2 is fully capable and mature to be able to be a Shodan. So fine, make some sort of exception. If he or she is that good then the other students need to be learning from him or her. And their rank should in some way show that. It's all in the way the instructor handles it. Jr BB, probationary BB, learners permit, a special gi, or a funky color of electrical tape on the end of a well earned brown belt. Recognize the student. But in 99 times out of 100, the student is going to be at least 16 years old.
BTW, I think 18 is too old an age limit. Our young people can handle a lot more responsibility than we give them credit for. In fact I think young people crave it and want to be able to handle it. In our society they get the message too often that being young is all about fun. In reality it needs to be about learning to take responsibility.
Good post, but I'd say 18 isn't too old for a black belt, it is maybe too young. If a 16 year old wants responsibility and you want to give it to them, make up a new position, make them red belt assistant instructors, whatever, but to me a black belt in most cases shouldn't be going to a 16 year old, most of the time they aren't physically capable (But like I've been saying, there are exceptions.), If I'm not a black belt in a system and they are, I want them to be able to outclass me in nearly every way.
Yeah it would seem odd, but people should get over, a small thing like something looking odd.
Well, while that may be true, but depending on who the child is teaching, that may make a difference to the students. If they're teaching kids heir age, that may not be so bad. If they're teaching people old enough to be their parents, well......
Time in grade should take as long as it requires as for them to become the next belt. Sure they might know all the stuff for red belt, but if they don't act and look like one, they wait. As for higher grades i.e black belt promotions, I believe a set time frame is required, because it is too easy for the black belts to forget what progression at that level means. A lot of the time it is less about learning new techniques or your new form, it is more about learning more about your art, contributing to your art and developing new ideas. IMO.
I agree with the BB ranks. As for the lower, for myself, I could see the lower belts going fairly quick, ie: within a month or two, depending on the persons training/practice habits, due to the fact that much of the material is fairly simple. Once they reach the intermediate levels, personally, I'd rather see them wait a bit longer, due to the fact that the material is getting more complex. As I said in another post, its one thing to know the material, and do it in the air, but I want to see how they perform on someone, and have a better knowledge of what they're doing.
I suppose in the end, its the instructor that will have to live with his actions. How he chooses to run the school, test, promote, etc, will effect how he is viewed in the MA community. Additionally, it will also have an effect on his students, who may have to rely on what they're taught to defend themselves.
Good post, but I'd say 18 isn't too old for a black belt, it is maybe too young. If a 16 year old wants responsibility and you want to give it to them, make up a new position, make them red belt assistant instructors, whatever, but to me a black belt in most cases shouldn't be going to a 16 year old, most of the time they aren't physically capable (But like I've been saying, there are exceptions.), If I'm not a black belt in a system and they are, I want them to be able to outclass me in nearly every way.
Ok, this may be one of those times when I'm a bit confused again, and if so, please forgive me in advance, but doesnt this contradict what you're said in earlier posts?
Ok, this may be one of those times when I'm a bit confused again, and if so, please forgive me in advance, but doesnt this contradict what you're said in earlier posts?
Forgiven. What I've been saying is that there shouldn't be a set age limit but what I'm saying here is that 99.9% of 16 year olds aren't ready for BB, but if I happened across that 0.1% I would grade them to BB.
ap Oweyn
07-12-2009, 02:00 PM
Thai children represent their camps in competition at a very early age. Discuss. :)
Thai children represent their camps in competition at a very early age. Discuss. :)
I think I may have mentioned this somewhere in this thread already, but I'm too lazy to look, so I'll just say it again. :) IMHO, I feel that alot comes down to how in-depth each person is training. IMO, I feel that theres a huge difference between just doing the material and really knowing it.
I'd also go so far, as to say that the kids you mention, most likely put in much more training time than the average child. Like I said, you have the average people and the rare gems. The gems are just that...rare. :)
I was reading a thread on another forum tonight. It started off asking if rank from one school would be accepted at others, however it drifted into a discussion very similar to this. And yes, to no surprise, there were mixed reviews, with some saying to just focus on training and not worry about rank, and others saying that it makes the art, the student and the teacher look bad.
I have to wonder....back in the old days, how was the rank issue dealt with? Was it handed out like candy, like it is in some schools today, or was it on a very strict scale? I also thought that other thread was pretty interesting because one poster, started to make comparisons. For example: You have a 20-something 6th degree in say Kenpo, and a 50yo 6th degree in Kenpo. He asked if the 20something student fluffed themselves up to believe that they were equal to them? Same scenario, but the 20something student has been training for 12yrs while the other student has been training for 30. Are they equal in skill? Another comparison was a 2nd or 3rd dan of any age, compared to a BJJ Black Belt.
As I said, the thread was mixed, and people, once they saw that comparison, started to say that people should not make such comparisons, because everyone is different. While that may be the case, I can see where this poster was going.
Like I said, in the end, its the student and teacher that have to live with what they sow. I've never asked for rank, and I don't plan on doing it now. I've busted my tail on all of my tests, and thank God, there were some that I failed and had to retake. At least the inst. was honest. He thought I was ready at the time, I wasn't so I didn't pass, yet he easily could've pushed me thru anyways.
And I'll repeat again, there is so much more than just being able to perform on the surface. Its being able to dig beneath the surface that makes the real difference.
ap Oweyn
07-13-2009, 11:00 AM
I think I may have mentioned this somewhere in this thread already, but I'm too lazy to look, so I'll just say it again. :) IMHO, I feel that alot comes down to how in-depth each person is training. IMO, I feel that theres a huge difference between just doing the material and really knowing it.
I'd also go so far, as to say that the kids you mention, most likely put in much more training time than the average child. Like I said, you have the average people and the rare gems. The gems are just that...rare. :)
You may have done. I tried to read all the posts, but I may have missed something.
In any event, I come down basically the same way as you, I think. On the issue of Thai youth competing in muay thai, anyway. I'm undecided on the larger issue of youth rankings.
I think, for Thai kids, it's more of a way of life. And I don't mean that in the new agey way that it usually gets bandied around in martial arts discussions. I mean that (as you likely already know) they live it everyday all day. Add to that the fact that muay thai holds a place in the public consciousness that martial arts still don't here and you get a sense of cultural accountability that I don't think we experience. And then there's the very practical consideration that many people go into the ring (both here and in Thailand) based on the conclusion that it's their best way out of their current financial situation. So there's another strong motivator coming into play.
All that said, I think the whole child black belt issue is another illustration that we engage in too much belt idolatry. Does a 10-year-old wearing a black belt stand any chance of beating a grown adult without one? Probably not. The average grown adult knows that. And the child should be made to understand their reality as well (without scaring the ever-loving crap out of them, obviously). But, to me, that's a question of redefining what the black belt means. NOT denying them a benchmark that actually seems to be keeping them motivated and focused.
And the thing is that it's a redefinition that's just as valid for adults, to my mind. I don't assume that everyone with a black belt is an expert fighter. We could argue that they ought to be. But, realistically, you're not going to change reality with that argument. Makes more sense just to say "meh, a black belt is an indicator of perseverance." Do that and the fighters will stop being offended that Joe Blackbelt might taint their ranks, the new black belts will stop operating under the misapprehension that they've "arrived," and we can all go back to concentrating on what actually matters. The training.
We all made this mess by putting too much emphasis on the Holy Grail of training in martial arts. We endlessly talk about the "black belt" then get put off because everyone wants one.
Like my close friend said to me the day after he earned his black belt (back in the late 80s): "I went to bed thinking I'd be somehow changed. I got up this morning and I'm exactly the same." Then he went back to training.
Stuart
You may have done. I tried to read all the posts, but I may have missed something.
In any event, I come down basically the same way as you, I think. On the issue of Thai youth competing in muay thai, anyway. I'm undecided on the larger issue of youth rankings.
I think, for Thai kids, it's more of a way of life. And I don't mean that in the new agey way that it usually gets bandied around in martial arts discussions. I mean that (as you likely already know) they live it everyday all day. Add to that the fact that muay thai holds a place in the public consciousness that martial arts still don't here and you get a sense of cultural accountability that I don't think we experience. And then there's the very practical consideration that many people go into the ring (both here and in Thailand) based on the conclusion that it's their best way out of their current financial situation. So there's another strong motivator coming into play.
All that said, I think the whole child black belt issue is another illustration that we engage in too much belt idolatry. Does a 10-year-old wearing a black belt stand any chance of beating a grown adult without one? Probably not. The average grown adult knows that. And the child should be made to understand their reality as well (without scaring the ever-loving crap out of them, obviously). But, to me, that's a question of redefining what the black belt means. NOT denying them a benchmark that actually seems to be keeping them motivated and focused.
And the thing is that it's a redefinition that's just as valid for adults, to my mind. I don't assume that everyone with a black belt is an expert fighter. We could argue that they ought to be. But, realistically, you're not going to change reality with that argument. Makes more sense just to say "meh, a black belt is an indicator of perseverance." Do that and the fighters will stop being offended that Joe Blackbelt might taint their ranks, the new black belts will stop operating under the misapprehension that they've "arrived," and we can all go back to concentrating on what actually matters. The training.
We all made this mess by putting too much emphasis on the Holy Grail of training in martial arts. We endlessly talk about the "black belt" then get put off because everyone wants one.
Like my close friend said to me the day after he earned his black belt (back in the late 80s): "I went to bed thinking I'd be somehow changed. I got up this morning and I'm exactly the same." Then he went back to training.
Stuart
Great post and I think you hit the nail on the head with the underlined part. I think that over time, when things get watered down for the masses, it changes, drastically, the way people look at time in grade, training, and what the art is really about.
As for rank...yes, its a good feeling, to get that new rank. But it doesn't change the person, as they're still the same, like you said. The guy I do BJJ with, has asked me many times, if I ever wanted to test. To date, I havent. I'm content training. Its my skill not the belt that I'm worried about. :) And this, I think is the opposite of so many others, because its not drilled into them, that getting a new belt, really means nothing, other than a momentary good feeling. Yes, you'll learn new techs. and kata, and maybe even go to another class, but if you can't perform, what good is that new belt? My goals are to continue to train until I no longer can, and continue to improve and explore what I already know. IMHO, a true instructor, is concerned with the quality of his students, not the number of black belts he has running around.
I still stand by what I always say....when it happens, it happens. In my Kenpo class, I wear a plain black belt. Arnis, while I do have my BB, its usually only worn for special occasions, ie: the group photo shot at seminars/camps, rank tests, etc. Otherwise, I'm beltless. :)
ap Oweyn
07-17-2009, 01:56 PM
We don't typically wear belts in our arnis class either, though we did in my first arnis school.
I've only done a couple of BJJ classes. And when I did, the instructor had me put on a spare belt that was lying around. White belt. Something about needing to keep my gi together. Anyway, I couldn't figure out why this guy I was rolling with was so intent on pummeling the new guy. Turns out that the belt I was wearing had a stripe or two on it. He thought I had more experience than he did. So he had a chip on his shoulders about submitting the "more experienced" man.
Instead, he just choked out a newbie. *shrug* The perils of grading systems, eh? ;)
We don't typically wear belts in our arnis class either, though we did in my first arnis school.
I've only done a couple of BJJ classes. And when I did, the instructor had me put on a spare belt that was lying around. White belt. Something about needing to keep my gi together. Anyway, I couldn't figure out why this guy I was rolling with was so intent on pummeling the new guy. Turns out that the belt I was wearing had a stripe or two on it. He thought I had more experience than he did. So he had a chip on his shoulders about submitting the "more experienced" man.
Instead, he just choked out a newbie. *shrug* The perils of grading systems, eh? ;)
Yeah, I guess so. Typically, unless its a gi class, belts are not worn. And I've been there too, on the receiving end of someone who feels they need to make a point. Oh well...theres one in every bunch I suppose. LOL!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.12 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.