I don't care about rank.......

[fist of fury]

..And other such non sense. I see this repeatedly on nearly all the MA forums I go to. Now I know this all depends upon your style eveyone has different time periods before they attain thier black belts. But let's say if you work hard put in alot of practice time in and out of the classroom. And the average time for a BB in your system is anywhere form 3-5 years, but you've been in for 10+ years but you're still a red,brown,gold,etc.. whatever the rank is just before BB in your system. Now you don't "care" about rank so BB is just another belt for you. Then why keep putting it off? If you really don't care about rank then why do you avoid getting your BB? Is it fear that you have to live up to some impossibly high standards you believe a BB should be able to do? Or is it the in thing to do now just sit at one rank before black and not "care"?
I understand that many have the wrong mindset about black also thinking that it's the end but we know it's not.

So what's eveyone's opinions?

[Kirk]

I just had this conversation with a friend over the weekend.
Not testing for a promo ... doesn't that halt your learning?
I'm a purple belt .. and I could really honestly care less about
rank ... but I do care about learning .. if I decided "okay, I'm not
going to test because I don't care about rank" ... then I'm not
privy to any more teachings other than what I've learned.

There is a set curriculum in my school, and in order to learn more,
you have to be promoted. And I've met quite a few brown belts
who have a good decade in (all online) and won't test for black,
and when asked why, they say "aw, I don't care about rank, I
just want to train" ... well me too, but why even go as high as
brown? Why ever go beyond white?

[Robbo]

It seems like an excuse not to up your game to be ready for the grading.

You have to work freakin hard for a grading (I know, I know you can slip by but then what's the point?)and the number of times I have heard that statement (rank means nothing to me) pisses me off. It cheapens it for the rest of us who have worked for it.

It's a paradox...Rank means everything and nothing all at the same time.

Rob

[fist of fury]

That's what I mean. In my school BB implies that you've "learned" the basics not mastered not a deadly kung fu master, but you should know the basics. We continue to learn new material afterward. I've been working my ass off and I don't plan to stop just before black and not care for 10 years.

[Aikikitty]

This isn't the way it is in my dojo but I've heard other people on this site and other MA websites say this---

Some people don't want a blackbelt because in some associations, the price of testing is ridiculously high and 2. in some schools, blackbelts are required to teach (either beginners or kids) and they just don't want to do that.

Those are some reasons I've heard.

Robyn :asian:

[chufeng]

I see it two ways...

There are those who avoid testing who claim "Rank means nothing..." I view most of them as copping out...especially when they've been at ikkyu for five or six years...

...and there are those who've attained nidan or better who say "Rank means nothing to me..." those are the folks who try and deemphasize rank because the process of learning is never-ending and they recognize that...

Rarely, if ever, should someone have to "pull rank" in a dojo...
Students know who is and who isn't above them in rank...they don't need someone reminding them...

:asian:
chufeng

[Disco]

The only thing a Black Belt means is that your a Serious Student.

Let me ask this question to those who consider themselves real / true martial artists and hold no relevance for rank. How can you keep your art / style alive if you don't pass along the teachings?
:asian:

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by The Opal Dragon

Some people don't want a blackbelt because in some associations, the price of testing is ridiculously high and 2. in some schools, blackbelts are required to teach (either beginners or kids) and they just don't want to do that.

Those are some reasons I've heard.

Robyn

That I can understand but I've heard very few people state those reasons




Originally posted by chufeng
I see it two ways...

There are those who avoid testing who claim "Rank means nothing..." I view most of them as copping out...especially when they've been at ikkyu for five or six years...

...and there are those who've attained nidan or better who say "Rank means nothing to me..." those are the folks who try and deemphasize rank because the process of learning is never-ending and they recognize that...

Rarely, if ever, should someone have to "pull rank" in a dojo...
Students know who is and who isn't above them in rank...they don't need someone reminding them...


chufeng

I have no problem with the people that understand that the learning process is never ending and i agree. It's the people in yur first point that I question why do they want to copout? To me it almost seems like a fad. Similar to those that hate anything popular just because it's cool to do so.

[Kirk]

I think it's a fad thing .. like it's "cool" to stop right before black.

[fist of fury]

Or maybe they bash so many BB's themselves thier afraid of the same criticism.

[cali_tkdbruin]

When I was a young color belt all I cared about was just advancing up the MA ladder. I mean I was hard core about it. Now that I'm a BLACK, it's like just another rank to me. I know for a fact that I'll continue to train as long as I'm physically able, but, now belt ranks don't mean that much to me... :asian:

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
When I was a young color belt all I cared about was just advancing up the MA ladder. I mean I was hard core about it. Now that I'm a BLACK, it's like just another rank to me. I know for a fact that I'll continue to train as long as I'm physically able, but, now belt ranks don't mean that much to me... :asian:
And there's nothing wrong with that I'm curious about those that seem reluctant to get thier black. To me it seems your instructor should know when your ready and promote you. And if your instructor says test then you should that is unless you don't think your instructor has the judgement to make that call.

[A.R.K.]

As I've said many times before...a BB doesn't mean anything. It is relative and subjective to your particular style and cannot compare to others around the world. There is no standard to become a BB therefore it really is meaningless, except in your very localized arena.

There are people who hold no rank, but have practical experience who would very badly hurt a BB with no experience outside the dojo. Including 'high' Dans. A kyu belt in style 'A' might kick the snot out of a Dan in style 'B' because the training differs...and again practical hands on knowledge.

I am revamping my system completely in regards to name, ranks etc to get away from the whole thing. I've got my BB's...big deal. Just means I've got time in something. It's how I teach that is the big deal! The new system with be either practitioner or instructor. No belts, no asian titles...nothing. Thats the way it used to be before colored and BB's and testing fee's and organizations charging an arm and leg for a piece of paper etc.

It's how well you can defend yourself in a real world attack...not what your wall candy says or the cloth around your waist.

My thoughts :asian:

[fist of fury]

No one has been able to explain why they would hold themseves back. Since BB means you can really start learning then why hold yourself back? Why not continue to progress in your learning? to me it's like a senior in HS staying in HS senior for 5 years because he/she doesn't feel ready to move on.

[karatekid1975]

I'm at a point that I don't want to "just test" to get a rank. I don't care about the color. I care about what I am learning. In my new school, there is a lot to learn. I am even willing to drop a few ranks, just so I KNOW what I need to know for each rank. I just don't want to go through the "motions" and get promoted. I want to be good at it, and know what everything is for.

My instructor allowed me to keep my rank from the old school, but they learned a lot less for it there. In this school, I have to play "catch up." There is a hell of a lot to learn even for my lowly blue belt. I WANT to drop rank. I feel that I haven't earned it (blue belt) here. So far, I am not allowed to drop rank, but I will talk to my instructor tonight.

As far as BB goes, I won't test either if I feel I'm not ready. Simple as that. I will if I feel I can do it, and I know what I need to know. And I agree that getting a BB is just the start of learning, but there so much more that goes with it, mentally.

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by karatekid1975

As far as BB goes, I won't test either if I feel I'm not ready. Simple as that. I will if I feel I can do it, and I know what I need to know. And I agree that getting a BB is just the start of learning, but there so much more that goes with it, mentally.

I can see if you don't feel ready to test right away and outting off for few months to a year but 5+ years seems a little much too me.

[chufeng]

No one has been able to explain why they would hold themseves back

I knew an ikkyu in Iowa who held that rank for 5 years...why?
He liked being the top of his division in the tournament circuit...no one could be him at his rank...in his case, his ego got the best of him because I think the school he attended eventually closed down...

:asian:
chufeng

[chufeng]

be him???

I meant beat him
chufeng;)

[fist of fury]

I can see where ego would play a role in it.

[karatekid1975]

Originally posted by fist of fury
I can see if you don't feel ready to test right away and outting off for few months to a year but 5+ years seems a little much too me.

No, I don't think I'd wait 5 years. Now that is silly LOL. I may skip a test or two, but not wait five years. I'd be bored to death LOL.

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by karatekid1975
No, I don't think I'd wait 5 years. Now that is silly LOL. I may skip a test or two, but not wait five years. I'd be bored to death LOL.

I would too but apparently there must be something too it but no one wants to share.

[Marginal]

Originally posted by karatekid1975

My instructor allowed me to keep my rank from the old school, but they learned a lot less for it there. In this school, I have to play "catch up." There is a hell of a lot to learn even for my lowly blue belt. I WANT to drop rank. I feel that I haven't earned it (blue belt) here. So far, I am not allowed to drop rank, but I will talk to my instructor tonight.
How would that work? Do you just really enjoy paying testing fees or something?

[karatekid1975]

What test fees ;) I don't pay them. Tests are free.

[MartialArtist]

I've never been worried too much on rank. Having a certain position used to mean something, nowadays, it's easy to become one. If everyone could be commissioned a Lt. General their second year right out of West Point or ROTC, then everyone would be in the military, right?

I could get a cheesy MBA in a year that doesn't amount to anything, but I'd rather have a real one, thank you.

It usually meant how much skill you had, but I see white belts that are more promising than 3rd dans, who just slack off because they're "living high"

[karatekid1975]

I agree with you, MA. Good post.

[Shinzu]

maybe its the fact that people get too "comfortable" in their training and are a bit scared to advance. if you know where you stand, you know what to do, and how to do it.

when you advance you are un-sure of yourself and your techniques. i think it's a whole comfort zone thing, but you need to advance to learn. whether it be by rank or not.

[fist of fury]

So far the opinions on this seem to point to fear or ego as the issue.

[Mike Clarke]

Experience has lead to believe that I have no choice about being tested. I test whenever I'm "invited" to by my sensei.
The invitation does not give me a choice as such 'invitations' are not really the same as we Westerners see them.
I 'invite' my students to test when I see in them an improvement sufficent to progress to the next level. The test is just an opportunity for failer due to over confidence or bad nerves.
When I invite a student to test they have no choice but to test and but grateful to recieve such an invitaion.

Some of the situations already explored on this thread could not happen in my dojo due to the way I teach and the reasons my dojo is open.

Mike.

[Marginal]

Originally posted by karatekid1975
What test fees ;) I don't pay them. Tests are free.

Heh. I can see why it'd be more attractive to hop around the ranks then. ;)

All the same, dropping down seems like a bad solution IMO. I'd rather just drag myself up to speed rather than retreading stuff I already know just to pick up the bits I've missed. (Could just be that just I spent a year at 8th gup biasing me tho... )

[DannyE]

As my instructor, Tony Blauer says, "a belt only matters, if it matters to your opponent".

IMHO, rank usually does nothing more than feed the ego, and give a lot of people a false sense of security. In reality, nothing matters more, than time spent training. Regardless of rank.

Go train! :-)

Danny

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by DannyE
As my instructor, Tony Blauer says, "a belt only matters, if it matters to your opponent".

IMHO, rank usually does nothing more than feed the ego, and give a lot of people a false sense of security. In reality, nothing matters more, than time spent training. Regardless of rank.

Go train! :-)

Danny

I agree but many systems use belts as a way to gauge where a student is at. A belt doesn't represent a persons but the level of knowledge within that art. So since there is more to learn why hold yourself back.

[karatekid1975]

Originally posted by Marginal
Heh. I can see why it'd be more attractive to hop around the ranks then. ;)

All the same, dropping down seems like a bad solution IMO. I'd rather just drag myself up to speed rather than retreading stuff I already know just to pick up the bits I've missed. (Could just be that just I spent a year at 8th gup biasing me tho... )

Was it by choice? I had the choice to down-grade. All the stuff at this school that I have to catch up on is overwhelming. I'd rather down-grade and learn the right way, then try to cram everything up to blue belt and half-a$$ everything. Maybe it's just me. I'm bias on good technique. I don't just want to "go through the motions" so to speak, just for rank. That's not me. I'm there to learn.

[Shinzu]

i hear what you are saying karatekid. when i converted from shotokan to TSD, they allowed me to keep the same rank but it took alot of cramming and an aditional 3 months before i could test for my next rank. i think it's not everything, but it is a good learning tool for students and teachers to judge them by. the higher you stand, the more you are expected to know... and rightfully so.

think of it more like a timeline.. it has more meaning that way.

[Marginal]

Originally posted by karatekid1975
Was it by choice?

Not by choice. Just circumstance... Had to go back to school so I missed one testing date, then the college club couldn't locate space to hold the testing the fall semester, so no testing then either etc. On the bright side, I have a really good looking turning kick now. ;)


I had the choice to down-grade. All the stuff at this school that I have to catch up on is overwhelming. I'd rather down-grade and learn the right way, then try to cram everything up to blue belt and half-a$$ everything. Maybe it's just me. I'm bias on good technique. I don't just want to "go through the motions" so to speak, just for rank. That's not me. I'm there to learn.

Yeah, I don't really beleive in going through the motions either. (If I did, I wouldn't have gone to class every time despite no real prospects for advancement during that whole duration...) I'd just work obsessively on my own to get myself up to speed as quickly as possible and let the instructor iron the bugs out as they arose personally. If the instructor reccomended a demotion, I'd take it, but otherwise I'd trust the instructor's judgement...

Not sure how relevant it all is since I'm not you, but eh. :D

[A.R.K.]

DannyE,

How long have you been training under Tony? I've trained under him down here in Florida at S.E.P.S.I. and have several of his tapes. I like his approach and the SPEAR.
:asian:

[DannyE]

A.R.K.

I have studied his system for just over 2.5 yrs. My first PDR session, was in Aug.'01, and I've been a member of the PDR Team ever since. I have attended 2 PDR sessions, and trained privately, a few times, with one of the other Coaches, Mr. Eric Cobb, who is a Staff Trainer, and he is a very talented guy.
Mr. Blauers system is so solid, it covers every aspect of real world attacks.
So, has his system worked for you, in real situations?

There is a PDR Coach in Jupiter FL., I'm not sure if you knew that? I can get you his contact info., if you want it. They have a small LEO group there also.

Danny

[A.R.K.]

There is a PDR Coach in Jupiter FL., I'm not sure if you knew that? I can get you his contact info., if you want it. They have a small LEO group there also.

That would be great. Drop me an email.


So, has his system worked for you, in real situations?

His CQ method of elbow strikes are far better than I've seen on most other styles. Lets just say I know it works in real life and leave it at that ;)

I attended his 40 hour officer survial course down here.

I've got three of his tapes, Rape-safe, teaching children and one other I forget the title of. In addition to a couple of his audio tapes.

Stay safe.