McDojo?

[PaperPlateMan]

Hi, I am 15 and have been thinking of taking up martial arts soon and was looking at places in my area. I found this one place I liked but after reading some stuff around the internet about McDojos and stuff I don't wanna get ripped off or something. This is the website for the place.

http://www.phillymma.com/default.html

I am planning on going there on Monday to take a free class to see how it is. What should I be looking for while I am there to tell?

[celtic_crippler]

Hi, I am 15 and have been thinking of taking up martial arts soon and was looking at places in my area. I found this one place I liked but after reading some stuff around the internet about McDojos and stuff I don't wanna get ripped off or something. This is the website for the place.

http://www.phillymma.com/default.html

I am planning on going there on Monday to take a free class to see how it is. What should I be looking for while I am there to tell?

To answer that we need to know what your goals are. What are you looking for in a martial art? What is your reason for wanting to take up martial arts; sports and competition, self-defense, self-improvement, fitness ...what?

Just from viewing the webpage it's definately a commercial school, but that's not a bad thing.

The facilities look top knotch.

Looks like a standard MMA school; focus on boxing and muay tai for stand up and BJJ for grappling so you probably wouldn't get any "traditional" type training.

Clips look good. Dude's got some nice moves.

This turns me off though:

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu in conjunction with Muay Thai is with out a doubt the best system for self-defense.

It's okay to love what you train in, but be wary of any school claiming to make you into Superman. Most martial arts are good, but there is no such animal as a full-proof super-martial art.

But it looks like if you want to study "UFC" type martial arts this would be the place for you.

[PaperPlateMan]

Well mostly I want to learn self defense and if I like it enough try it for sports. Would you say this is a good school for those reasons?

[celtic_crippler]

Well mostly I want to learn self defense and if I like it enough try it for sports. Would you say this is a good school for those reasons?

It appears to me that their primary focus is on the sport aspect of martial arts. That doesn't mean you wouldn't pick up good self-defense techniques though.

I reccomend taking the free class and seeing how you like it, but shop around. Visit a couple of schools and take in a class or two. Any legitimate school will allow you to take a class or two for free.

Whatever you do, DO NOT sign anything until you've had a chance to try a few schools out and compare them.

[PaperPlateMan]

I have been looking around but I just really don't know about places much. The recent search I did had bad ratings for the place I was interested in.

http://www.findmmagym.com/search-gyms/?near=19018

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Site seems fine to me.
The Jujutsu history is incorrect.

Since then, the martial arts have evolved more in the last 10 years than they have in over 250 years prior to 1993 People have been cross training and evolving before 1993. U.F.C. was Gracie's game since then many people who are pro wrestlers,Judoka have beaten the Gracies so lets not count their styles out.

Jiu-Jitsu was originally developed in India No. Jujutsu comes from Japan. The term Jujutsu was in use as were other words such Taijutsu,Yawara,etc,etc.


It is a fact that 90% of all fights go to a "clinch" where two people are grabbing each other and that 80% end up on the ground either by accident or by design Stats without sources.


The unbeatable art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was born.
Helio Gracie lost to Masahiko Kimura. Gracies lost to Kazushi Sakuraba among other loses.

The school is not a Mcdojo it is just a commerical school with a lot of hype in it and embellish stories.

[Bob Hubbard]

Considering you said you were 16 or older at registration, and gave a much older age in your account, you might want to investigate the concept of honesty and respect before walking in the door at any legit martial arts school. It's a concept that they like to see in their students.

[celtic_crippler]

Considering you said you were 16 or older at registration, and gave a much older age in your account, you might want to investigate the concept of honesty and respect before walking in the door at any legit martial arts school. It's a concept that they like to see in their students.

Really?

[Joab]

For self defense, I would look into a RBSD system, or reality based self defense, perhaps Krav Maga if it has a good teacher.

[Bob Hubbard]

Really?
Well that, and can they sign the check. The McDojos care more about the check clearing than dealing with honorable people, IMO.

[Bob Hubbard]

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu in conjunction with Muay Thai is with out a doubt the best system for self-defense.

So, if a guy hyped up on pcp comes at you with a machete, I'd like to know what the best BJJ or MT tech is against that. Or a guy with a slingblade. Or a crowbar. Cuz, I haven't found any techs attributed to those arts vs those weapons on Youtube. Points not to smack either art, both are excellent arts to train in, but "best" depends on what is needed.

[CuongNhuka]

So, if a guy hyped up on pcp comes at you with a machete, I'd like to know what the best BJJ or MT tech is against that.

Bob, I've heard of people on PCP ripping a steal door off it's hinges, taking multiple blasts from a shotgun, and not dieing. I don't mind you refuting peoples claims, but lets try to avoid the fallacious.

[Bob Hubbard]

ok, if I attack you with the $5 wall hanger I used in my last martial arts video, besides laughing, what BJJ technique applies? ;)

[Tensei85]

ok, if I attack you with the $5 wall hanger I used in my last martial arts video, besides laughing, what BJJ technique applies? ;)

The one where you lie on your back maybe?

just kidding :)

[arnisador]

So, if a guy hyped up on pcp comes at you with a machete, I'd like to know what the best BJJ or MT tech is against that. Or a guy with a slingblade. Or a crowbar. Cuz, I haven't found any techs attributed to those arts vs those weapons on Youtube. Points not to smack either art, both are excellent arts to train in, but "best" depends on what is needed.

I agree. The usual answer from arts that focus on one-on-one sports dueling is that no art gives you very good odds in such a situation. That's true to an extent...but empty-handed against a machete I'd rather be trying an FMA, IMA, or Aikido rather than MT or BJJ. Against the PCP-hyped, I might prefer a style based on kicks that break knees than on strikes that cause pain.

It depends! What's the best tool for the job? Well, what's the job?

Mind you, for all-around butt-kicking, MT and BJJ are great arts.

[Tensei85]

I agree. The usual answer from arts that focus on one-on-one sports dueling is that no art gives you very good odds in such a situation. That's true to an extent...but empty-handed against a machete I'd rather be trying an FMA, IMA, or Aikido rather than MT or BJJ. Against the PCP-hyped, I might prefer a style based on kicks that break knees than on strikes that cause pain.

It depends! What's the best tool for the job? Well, what's the job?

Mind you, for all-around butt-kicking, MT and BJJ are great arts.

Just a perspective but I would have to say that is where being well rounded would come into play. Like what you are saying maybe some FMA for the knife and stick usage, in saying such im not downplaying the hand techniques in FMA. Lol, definitely not. They have great hand techniques from what I've seen.

But then an art that specializes in kicking, one in striking so forth.

Only problem with my thought process is mastering one system takes most of one's life. So mastering other's takes more than one life, so I would say it comes down to Master one but at the same time atleast have some type of ground game, kicking game, striking game etc...

To the level of at least understanding the mechanics behind grappling, kicking, etc... To become more well rounded in those regards.

Sorry, to run off on a tangeant just trying to formulate my thought methodology.

[CuongNhuka]

ok, if I attack you with the $5 wall hanger I used in my last martial arts video, besides laughing, what BJJ technique applies? ;)

I don't do BJJ, so I don't know. But that is not the point -- refuting a claim based on event that (while it does happen) also refutes almost every of martial arts, and quite a few small arms is not a great idea.

Tensei, you're fine. I like reading your rabblings, personnally.

[shesulsa]

A comprehensive art that provides at least a basic backbone in various scenarios has been my choice. I know if I want expertise in these fields I'll need to expand my learning base, however ... the point is clearly that there is *no* BEST art form.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

ok, if I attack you with the $5 wall hanger I used in my last martial arts video, besides laughing, what BJJ technique applies? Plenty of techniques that can be used. Though BJJ has a lot of ground work there are set ups for throws coming from Judo.

If you have correct timing,entering and control of the arm or arms in question you can set up the throw.

Seoi nage is a wonderful technique which controls the arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QIMZAVYX7c

You can see the application and how it would work for a Judoka or a BJJ player.

You can then after the application apply Ude Garami or another lock or hold:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOLx0GCwaDs

So if you are a BJJ or Judoka and follow the sword you might be able to use the forward motion to you advantage.

[Twin Fist]

anyone that claims "submission (anything)" is good for self defense is a friggin idiot.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Twinfist,

would you care to explain why you feel this way?

[Twin Fist]

"submission" means they give up. so you stop.

submission arts, that is arts that are not designed to DESTROY the attackers ability to attack are foolish for self defense, since they are designed for you to stop whatever you are doing and allow the bad guy to give up.

and you let go

and he changes his mind, and BAM you are in another fight with a NOW pissed off attacker.

seems like a flaw in the whole premise of the "self defense" concept, since bad guys DO NOT GIVE UP and say "hey, you got me, i will go rape someone else"

[JadecloudAlchemist]

submission" means they give up. so you stop.
It means more along the line of you controling your opponent. In a self defense situation you do not have to stop anything but are in a dominant control setting resulting in the opponent being submitted and unable to move or attack similar to being pinned,restrained.


submission arts, that is arts that are not designed to DESTROY the attackers ability to attack are foolish for self defense,

This is basically saying Judo,BJJ,Jujutsu,Aikido,and any art that allows submission holds like chokes,jointlocks,restraints are inferior. If you are submitting the opponent you are destroying your opponents ability to attack. Are you talking in terms of putting on a joint lock allowing the opponent to tap and then letting go? You do not have to let the attacker up you can still put on pressure,restraint,choke on the opponent you can choke the person out,break the joint,or put yourself in a superior position to knock the opponent out.

[Twin Fist]

This is basically saying Judo,BJJ,Jujutsu,Aikido,and any art that allows submission holds like chokes,jointlocks,restraints are inferior.


yes

jointlocks=bad
chokes=bad
restraints=bad

and i might add:
judo=sport and useless vs multiples
bjj=sport and useless vs multiples

Jjitsu isnt really a sport (depending on Ryu, some are sport) but is still useless vs multiples

aikido i believe can be usefull for self defense, after about 20 years practice.

I am not a believer in "nice guy" self defense.

I believe in breaking limbs, destroying joints, and knocking people out cold.

This is MY philosophy of self defense, i know many dont agree, and thats fine. I dont care. Please, if you are thinking of converting or 'educating" me, dont.

for one thing, it is off topic, and for another you would be wasting your time.

[myusername]

I believe in breaking limbs, destroying joints, and knocking people out cold.


Then you should really be a big fan of Jujutsu! It's primary purpose is to do all of these things.

[Twin Fist]

you miss the part about being useless vs multiples?

plus rolling around on concrete is NOT my idea of fun

[myusername]

you miss the part about being useless vs multiples?

plus rolling around on concrete is NOT my idea of fun

Come on now twinfist, your comments are very similar to people who reckon that TKD is all flashy high kicks! As a fellow ITF (based) TKD'er you know that this would just be people generalising to fulfill their need to put TKD down. You know that TKD is much more than that generalisation being an instructor of a top notch traditional school (I've seen your videos on other threads and was impressed). What you are doing with jujutsu is no different than those who bash TKD.

In my jujutsu class our grappling is very much about how to get up on your feet as quickly as possible. It has an emphasis on striking target areas that interfere with the attackers air supply, blood supply and conciousness. There are alot of jujutsu schools that deal with proper self defence rather than just rolling around for the tap just like there are many TKD schools that teach proper self defence rather than just flashy spinning high kicking. I am fortunate enough to belong to excellent TKD and Jujutsu schools and I rate both systems highly.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

and i might add:
judo=sport and useless vs multiples
bjj=sport and useless vs multiples

There is Sport Judo and the same techniques are taught for self defense.
Seoi Nage can be a throw or a break and then a throw depending on how you want to do it. Judo does have Atemi and there is no reason a Judoka can not use strikes to set up a throw. There is also no reason a Judoka can not use an opponent to create space and distancing and use quick sweeps,strikes,and throws. The same goes for BJJ. A BJJ player does not have to take it to the ground if he practices standup along with his BJJ.


Jjitsu isnt really a sport (depending on Ryu, some are sport) but is still useless vs multiples I really can not think of any Jujutsu that was designed for sport. Even BJJ was at first a martial art for defense before the more sporting side developed.


aikido i believe can be usefull for self defense, after about 20 years practice. Depends on how you train and your teacher. The Tenshin Aikido and Nihon Goshin Aikido among other styles will disagree.


I am not a believer in "nice guy" self defense. You are free to have your opinion and your method of protecting yourself.


Please, if you are thinking of converting or 'educating" me, dont. Have no intention. Your opinion is as valid as mine.

[arnisador]

jointlocks=bad
chokes=bad
restraints=bad

Let's remember that there's a time and a place for everything. Jujutsu was developed for armoured samurai to use either with their left hand while their right held a sword, or when disarmed and facing an armoured opponent. The less-than-lethal techniques are still good for those who must restrain an arrestee, a mental patient, etc., and of course there are more-dangerous techniques also.



and i might add:
judo=sport and useless vs multiples
bjj=sport and useless vs multiples

Overwhelmingly when you hear that a blind person has defended himself, it's with Judo or a close variant. The sport aspect cuts two ways: Yes, it limits the techniques, but it fosters aggressiveness and a winning attitude, and the person who does it well can be reasonably confident in his ability to make those techniques work for him. (Western boxing and Muay Thai are "just" sports, after all.) But if your art depends on a neck-breaking technique you always practice in slow-mo and must stop practicing 75% of the way through the technique, how can you know you can depend on it?

I agree that these arts are less valuable vs. multiple opponents than many others, but even with multiple opponents you might still get tackled to the ground. As stated above, it's usual to emphasize how important it is to get back up quickly and to practice ways to do so (as my BJJ instructor always did). Sport and self-defense goals are different. Of course, the BJJ rejoinder is that no art is going to give you great odds against a group attack.


aikido i believe can be usefull for self defense, after about 20 years practice.

I more-or-less agree with this. It takes a lot longer to make it functional.



I believe in breaking limbs, destroying joints, and knocking people out cold.


The first two are a jujutsu specialty, no?

Submission arts use techniques that cause a practice partner to submit rather than have a joint broken or be choked out. you choose to let them submit rather than be injured. That seems OK to me. You can't always really hit your practice partner, but you can always choke them nearly unconscious.

[jks9199]

yes

jointlocks=bad
chokes=bad
restraints=bad

and i might add:
judo=sport and useless vs multiples
bjj=sport and useless vs multiples

Jjitsu isnt really a sport (depending on Ryu, some are sport) but is still useless vs multiples

aikido i believe can be usefull for self defense, after about 20 years practice.

I am not a believer in "nice guy" self defense.

I believe in breaking limbs, destroying joints, and knocking people out cold.

This is MY philosophy of self defense, i know many dont agree, and thats fine. I dont care. Please, if you are thinking of converting or 'educating" me, dont.

for one thing, it is off topic, and for another you would be wasting your time.
You're classifying a lot of things absolutely -- but there are plenty of people who can show you the difference between sport/practice and real application. A move that in practice and training stops at a lock becomes a break in real application. Or the lock or hold is held until the person truly surrenders, not just gives up. The difference is in how you train -- not the style. And several of those styles do have tactics for dealing with multiple attackers... they just aren't often demonstrated today.

[Twin Fist]

This is MY philosophy of self defense, i know many dont agree, and thats fine. I dont care. Please, if you are thinking of converting or 'educating" me, dont.

for one thing, it is off topic, and for another you would be wasting your time.

sigh

ok, now to be fair, what i posted in the first place stands.

that being said, I am now studying Kajukembo, in part because i know i want to open up my arsenal to include some new things.

but i will never RELY on chokes, joint locks, or chokes.

and I will never roll around on the ground by choice.

[arnisador]

but i will never RELY on chokes, joint locks, or chokes.

and I will never roll around on the ground by choice.

Joint locks are very hard to get if you haven't softened the person up a bit first. I still believe what my first Karate instructor told me while teaching a kick to the side of the knee: A man that can't stand can't fight. Broken bones make a great defense against the PCP maniac, because it doesn't matter whether he feels pain or not--it's simple biomechanics. But there's a time and a place for everything. Against a knifer, distance may keep me from getting in a solid shot but I might be able to control that arm and lock it...at least, control it enough that I can get in some solid knee shots.

I too don't want to go to the ground if avoidable but it clearly happens enough to want to be prepared.