Who Tested in Vegas for KKW. [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

d1jinx

06-13-2009, 05:16 PM

Dortiz,
Yes I am aware how to check and I did pass. Thank you for your offer of help, but i wish to get an idea of the overall test and others.

Anyone who did, please take a minute to answer the questions and together we can get a picture or idea of what is going on and how it went overall.

as for myself,

1) no i have not recieved any certificate yet. I was told by USAT, it was in the mail. How cliche... from korea or to my door is what i would like to know.
2) I passed, sortof...
3) No. I tested from 4th to 6th, got 5th. (no one in my group was promoted to 6th)
4) as for other information, i have a little and wish to see if others are hearing the same.

Before anyone begins bashing me about the test and how i didnt pass... (i have been reading this site a while and see how some are),

I sent in my package to USAT. I met the requirements for 6th. I paid (big deal... dont mean i pass ) and waited. A few months later i came accros a statement in USAT kkw testing for clubs package, that " there are NO skip Dans to 6th Dan".
If this is true and why I and others I know didnt get it, then why were we allowed to test for it. I just would like to know if anyone did get it.

Please no friend of a friend story or conspiracy theories.

I saw many there who did not deserve to be and thought it was a handout. Trust me when i say, I did not fall into this category. I did not Not-pass due to lack of skill, technique or time requirements. If there was a technicallity, i would like to know that so I do not make the mistake again.

Thanks in advance for your time.

terryl965

06-13-2009, 05:43 PM

d1jinx I myself did not test mainly because I did not trust the USAT to do the right thing. After hearing about the no skip Dan from alot of folks the question comes to my mind why did they allow people to pay money if they knew this from the beginning? I will not bash you or anybody else but let me ask you this why did you test for them instead of testing with your Master?

By the way welcome to the site and looking forward to your response.

dortiz

06-13-2009, 08:37 PM

Can local Masters approve skip Dans. For example honoring an old rank never submitted? Just curious. I was told no, but got support and recomonded for this. Sometimes despite all I am not sure about what I am told anymore.

wade

06-13-2009, 09:30 PM

dortiz, to answer your question, we can approve them, but then we have to send them to the USAT for finale approval and then the USAT forwards them to the KKW. So far, I have never had a problem with a skip dan, but then the highest skip dan I ever did was from 2nd to 4th. It takes about 6 months to the day to get the certificate.

goingd

06-14-2009, 06:08 AM

My master tested and has not yet gotten his certificate, only confirmation of his "passing" and rank. What bothered me was that he was not required to actually TEST. He did the pretest and the whole seminar, but on the day of the actual test an official told him he did not have to test because of his time in rank...... ... It is a shame because he is quite good at sparring and it would have been wonderful to watch him spar so many "masters".

He did not test with his master because quite frankly he was misinformed... by the USAT... surprising, huh?

I have never heard of having to officially go through USAT to approve of a skip Dan... Don't really believe it.

NPTKD

06-14-2009, 09:30 AM

".

He did not test with his master because quite frankly he was misinformed... by the USAT... surprising, huh?

I have never heard of having to officially go through USAT to approve of a skip Dan... Don't really believe it.

You don't have to use USAT... and I don't think that is what he meant... He use's them(example) for access to KKW.

How was your master misinformed by USAT?

terryl965

06-14-2009, 09:47 AM

My master tested and has not yet gotten his certificate, only confirmation of his "passing" and rank.

He did not test with his master because quite frankly he was misinformed... by the USAT... surprising, huh?

The two above phases do not make sense, you said he tested and passed but got no certificate yet, That I understand but then you say he did not test with all the other Masters, why? They had no seperate test for anybody, everybody tested togethere, so what really happend? How was anything mis-informed, everything was writted out and had to be done prior to the test. I believe you are mistaken or confused or misinforned.

d1jinx

06-14-2009, 10:21 AM

d1jinx... why did you test for them instead of testing with your Master?.

I chose to test at Vegas because my GM could not skip me to 6th and they (KKW and USAT) said they could. Also I have always wanted to go to the Kukkiwon and test or compete. Since time, money and career could not allow me to, the next best thing was them coming to me... here in the US of course.

Originally for the record, I would not have done it for 5th. I would have just stayed at home and tested through my GM. But I saw this as an oppurtunity to get back the time that had been lost to dishonest instructors that robbed me and the days as a child and teen when i could not afford to test.

Having said that... I AM glad to have done it now. Even if it was only for 5th. Unless you were there, you cannot grasp the feeling of being in a small space with 300 Black belts training for 3 LONG days and testing with Kukkiwon Masters watching. Probably the most accomplishing thing was not the test, but the pretest the night before. To go up in a group of 6, in front of 300 BlackBelts who have formed a box around you, watching YOU, and perform what you have trained your whole life for and be watched and critiqued by Master Park and others was the true test for any Martial artist.

Sure I could have stayed at home and tested in front of my GM and the testing board along with fellow friends and students who i see every day and have no real pressure in front of. Or go to Vegas, meet hundreds of people with the same interest and love for the art that has been a part of my life since i was 10. Feel real NON-Competition-based pressure and perform. Lets face it when you go to a competition, not everyone there is wishing you well, or even watching you. But at the Pre-test, EVERYONE there was. And yes there were those who should not have been there. But they stood out and needed not to be ridiculed. Just performing infront of all 300 of us should have been an eye opener to themselves. And if not, then does it really matter? They will get their rank anyway, just like they have up till now. only difference is, when I go to a tournament and see them parading around like a king.... I and the other 299 or so people that were there know they suck.:lfao:

So bottom line, no regrets...Im glad i did it. Met a few new friends and had an experience that can never be duplicated. I could be mad and upset at USAT but I'm not....yet.... they provided me with an experience that I would have never had. And sure there were those trying to take advantage of it and "buy a Black belt"... at least we saw who they were.

Have you ever stood in a room with 300+ Black Belts staring only at YOU and done your forms? I have.:supcool:

d1jinx

06-14-2009, 10:35 AM

You don't have to use USAT... and I don't think that is what he meant... He use's them(example) for access to KKW.

We don't use USAT for KKW certification.
They offered an oppurtunity to bring KKW here and give me a chance to skip to 6th dan. Since i could not go there (korea) ....

terryl965

06-14-2009, 12:11 PM

I chose to test at Vegas because my GM could not skip me to 6th and they (KKW and USAT) said they could. Also I have always wanted to go to the Kukkiwon and test or compete. Since time, money and career could not allow me to, the next best thing was them coming to me... here in the US of course.

Originally for the record, I would not have done it for 5th. I would have just stayed at home and tested through my GM. But I saw this as an oppurtunity to get back the time that had been lost to dishonest instructors that robbed me and the days as a child and teen when i could not afford to test.

Having said that... I AM glad to have done it now. Even if it was only for 5th. Unless you were there, you cannot grasp the feeling of being in a small space with 300 Black belts training for 3 LONG days and testing with Kukkiwon Masters watching. Probably the most accomplishing thing was not the test, but the pretest the night before. To go up in a group of 6, in front of 300 BlackBelts who have formed a box around you, watching YOU, and perform what you have trained your whole life for and be watched and critiqued by Master Park and others was the true test for any Martial artist.

Sure I could have stayed at home and tested in front of my GM and the testing board along with fellow friends and students who i see every day and have no real pressure in front of. Or go to Vegas, meet hundreds of people with the same interest and love for the art that has been a part of my life since i was 10. Feel real NON-Competition-based pressure and perform. Lets face it when you go to a competition, not everyone there is wishing you well, or even watching you. But at the Pre-test, EVERYONE there was. And yes there were those who should not have been there. But they stood out and needed not to be ridiculed. Just performing infront of all 300 of us should have been an eye opener to themselves. And if not, then does it really matter? They will get their rank anyway, just like they have up till now. only difference is, when I go to a tournament and see them parading around like a king.... I and the other 299 or so people that were there know they suck.:lfao:

So bottom line, no regrets...Im glad i did it. Met a few new friends and had an experience that can never be duplicated. I could be mad and upset at USAT but I'm not....yet.... they provided me with an experience that I would have never had. And sure there were those trying to take advantage of it and "buy a Black belt"... at least we saw who they were.

Have you ever stood in a room with 300+ Black Belts staring only at YOU and done your forms? I have.:supcool:

I am glad it was great for you and your attitude is also great, a true Martial Artist would have the same. Your above question about being in front of thre hundred bo ever have been there, but been in front og some of the biggest names in TKD history and was tested by them and the feeling of them saying I was good enough was good enough for me. I too have beem a victom of bogus Mater;s never sending away for a KKW certificate and no I will never get those years back but what I do have is the knowkedge of knowing I was and still able to do the best I can. In the end that is all that really matters.

goingd

06-14-2009, 07:30 PM

I'm not misinformed or confused, I just worded things wrong - sorry.

When I said my master "tested" I mean that he signed up and went through all that fun stuff, did the seminar and showed up for the test. While others were testing he was told that he did not have to test, point blank. He was disappointed by it, and I was quite frankly upset that they would promote because of "time in rank," for the sake of probably saving time.

I've explained this in another thread before:
USAT led my master to believe that only "member schools" of Kukkiwon can apply for promotion of their students. How and why? I have no idea; I only know what my master tells me.

NPTKD

06-15-2009, 08:27 AM

I've explained this in another thread before:
USAT led my master to believe that only "member schools" of Kukkiwon can apply for promotion of their students. How and why? I have no idea; I only know what my master tells me.

I think that it is your master who is confused! There aren't any schools that are "member school". Only an a person can be a memeber of KKW not schools. Sounds like the crap that masters tell there students when they can't promote thru KKW or don't want to!

NPTKD

06-15-2009, 08:36 AM

I was there and tested. I know that a small group of people were able to test the night before. One of them was a korean man I met during the seminar ( nice guy) he told me later that night that when they lined up for testing they were told that they had already passed! He also said that they didn't have to do anything. They told him for the it was just a matter of paperwork (time in rank). He was testing for 5th dan. He was please with the out come ( He could have passed anyway) He came back the next day to watch me test. I was already a fifth USAT but still had to come to Vas to test for fifth.. I should be pissed but I had a great time. Found out also that all of these high ranking people you run into at events, well maybe they should spend more time training for themselves.

terryl965

06-15-2009, 09:06 AM

goingd

06-15-2009, 05:28 PM

I think that it is your master who is confused! There aren't any schools that are "member school". Only an a person can be a memeber of KKW not schools. Sounds like the crap that masters tell there students when they can't promote thru KKW or don't want to!

??? Yes, he is confused indeed... That's usually what happens when someone misleads you... Might want to watch how you seem address someone else master... Juuust maybe.

goingd

06-15-2009, 05:45 PM

I should have mentioned earlier that my master was asked to test in Vegas by Hong Kong Kim, so that may have had something to do with him being one of the people not required to test.

Flying Crane

06-15-2009, 06:37 PM

I chose to test at Vegas because my GM could not skip me to 6th and they (KKW and USAT) said they could.

Originally for the record, I would not have done it for 5th.

I AM glad to have done it now. Even if it was only for 5th.

I'm not a TKD guy so I hope I'm not sticking my nose in where it's not welcome. But these comments really jumped out at me.

I don't understand why anyone would expect, or why any organization would agree, to skip 5th dan. I think skipping ANY rank, even colored ranks, is questionable at best. But any Dan grade, even so high as 5th Dan? How does someone justify this? And the comment that it was "only for 5th", my god, you say it as if 5th is something to be taken lightly. In this organization, is that true?

Once upon a time a godan was a rare thing indeed, an individual of high caliber who has devoted most of a lifetime to training. Have they become as common as dirt? Something to be scoffed at, and even skipped over? Barely worth acknowledging? What's happening here? I really really really really really don't get it...

goingd

06-15-2009, 07:13 PM

terryl965

06-15-2009, 07:15 PM

Michael you have every right to question what it is about the skip Dan, you see so many TKD'ers in the eighties and nineties paid bigtime fee's for proper certification and never recieved them. We had so many crooked Master in those days and they are still around today but people have gotten wiser to there scams. I know alot of good people who should be a 5th or 6th by now and are only a 3rd with proper papers, so in essense they are just buying what they already tested for back in the early years.

Flying Crane

06-15-2009, 07:30 PM

Michael,
I think I understand the way you are seeing this. The standards for the test required those testing to meet the time requirements for any ranks being skipped (except in very "special" cases, which just usually doesn't fly) and also to meet the standards of the rank being tested for.

A chodan or ohdan should indeed be revered. Unfortunately so many people have gotten so used to being promoted by mere means of time and cash that the social standard for a 5th Dan has gone down. Those of us that care what a rank represents cannot do too much to change the general view on the adequacy of rank. It is more important I think that we do not let the views of others change our views and ethics as martial artists.

Michael you have every right to question what it is about the skip Dan, you see so many TKD'ers in the eighties and nineties paid bigtime fee's for proper certification and never recieved them. We had so many crooked Master in those days and they are still around today but people have gotten wiser to there scams. I know alot of good people who should be a 5th or 6th by now and are only a 3rd with proper papers, so in essense they are just buying what they already tested for back in the early years.

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts, gentlement. In a way I understand what you are saying. But on the other hand it does start to look like a slippery slope of entitlement.

Just because someone got scammed back in the past at some time, doesn't mean they deserve to jump ahead to "make up for lost time" or something. I think there is no such thing as lost time. It's all part of the development process, and it's just life, plain and simple. Nobody says life is fair. So it takes longer to get rank, or certain rank is always out of reach. So be it.

I don't mean to pick on the original poster, but another comment sort of reinforces my position:

I chose to test at Vegas because my GM could not skip me to 6th and they (KKW and USAT) said they could.

This looks like the entitlement mentality that I am talking about. Why would one go outside of one's own teacher for testing and rank? Just to skip rank? To get "more" in one shot? To circumvent one's teacher because he won't/can't give you what you want? I don't get it. From my perspective, it looks more like a sales job on the part of the Org.

I would never go looking for rank from someone, either a person or an organization, outside of my instructor. It just doesn't make sense. My instructor is the only one in a position to give me rank, if he feels I deserve it. I would never circle around him to get more rank from anyone else, particularly anyone with whom I haven't studied.

I dunno. Maybe this organization feels that kind of thing is OK. But again, I really really really don't get it.

Tames D

06-15-2009, 07:55 PM

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts, gentlement. In a way I understand what you are saying. But on the other hand it does start to look like a slippery slope of entitlement.

Just because someone got scammed back in the past at some time, doesn't mean they deserve to jump ahead to "make up for lost time" or something. I think there is no such thing as lost time. It's all part of the development process, and it's just life, plain and simple. Nobody says life is fair. So it takes longer to get rank, or certain rank is always out of reach. So be it.

I don't mean to pick on the original poster, but another comment sort of reinforces my position:

This looks like the entitlement mentality that I am talking about. Why would one go outside of one's own teacher for testing and rank? Just to skip rank? To get "more" in one shot? To circumvent one's teacher because he won't/can't give you what you want? I don't get it. From my perspective, it looks more like a sales job on the part of the Org.

I would never go looking for rank from someone, either a person or an organization, outside of my instructor. It just doesn't make sense. My instructor is the only one in a position to give me rank, if he feels I deserve it. I would never circle around him to get more rank from anyone else, particularly anyone with whom I haven't studied.

I dunno. Maybe this organization feels that kind of thing is OK. But again, I really really really don't get it.

Michael, Michael, Michael -
I see you and me come from the same school of thought. But apparently, the times, they are a changing. Theres so much more that I want to say about this subject but I won't. It's the new kinder, gentler me. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

troubleenuf

06-15-2009, 08:45 PM

So you are one of these things:
Happy with your instructor and have a great instructor
Happy wiht your instructor and are blind to who/what he really is
Happy with your instructor but have never seen anything else to compare him to
Happy with your instructor who has you brainwashed.

I HOPE you are the first one. However what you have to open your eyes to is that unfortunately there are just as many poor instructors who take advantage of their students as there are good ones who dont.
By the way, there are MANY students who are brainwashed/blind/ or just plain dont know. I was one at one time. Spent many years with an instructor who took advantage of me/us. Finally woke up and looking back I dont know how I could have been so dumb. Unfortunately there are still many past friends who never woke up and are still feeding him money.

Thanks for the feedback and thoughts, gentlement. In a way I understand what you are saying. But on the other hand it does start to look like a slippery slope of entitlement.

Just because someone got scammed back in the past at some time, doesn't mean they deserve to jump ahead to "make up for lost time" or something. I think there is no such thing as lost time. It's all part of the development process, and it's just life, plain and simple. Nobody says life is fair. So it takes longer to get rank, or certain rank is always out of reach. So be it.

I don't mean to pick on the original poster, but another comment sort of reinforces my position:

This looks like the entitlement mentality that I am talking about. Why would one go outside of one's own teacher for testing and rank? Just to skip rank? To get "more" in one shot? To circumvent one's teacher because he won't/can't give you what you want? I don't get it. From my perspective, it looks more like a sales job on the part of the Org.

I would never go looking for rank from someone, either a person or an organization, outside of my instructor. It just doesn't make sense. My instructor is the only one in a position to give me rank, if he feels I deserve it. I would never circle around him to get more rank from anyone else, particularly anyone with whom I haven't studied.

I dunno. Maybe this organization feels that kind of thing is OK. But again, I really really really don't get it.

Flying Crane

06-15-2009, 09:02 PM

So you are one of these things:
Happy with your instructor and have a great instructor
Happy wiht your instructor and are blind to who/what he really is
Happy with your instructor but have never seen anything else to compare him to
Happy with your instructor who has you brainwashed.

I HOPE you are the first one. However what you have to open your eyes to is that unfortunately there are just as many poor instructors who take advantage of their students as there are good ones who dont.
By the way, there are MANY students who are brainwashed/blind/ or just plain dont know. I was one at one time. Spent many years with an instructor who took advantage of me/us. Finally woke up and looking back I dont know how I could have been so dumb. Unfortunately there are still many past friends who never woke up and are still feeding him money.

When you open your eyes and realize your instructor is not the person of integrity that you thought he was, or you simply realize you can get better training elsewhere, you leave him and find a better one. And then you train hard.

If your new instructor uses a system of rank, then he ought to award rank as it becomes appropriate according to your training under his guidance. But I would be suspicious of any attempt to hurry you along to "make up for lost time". After all, if you were a 4th dan under the first instructor, and the new instructor offered to skip you to 6th dan, I would think that perhaps the first instructor actually has higher standards, and the second instructor is willing to give rank away cheaply. What's it worth to you? How cheaply did you buy your rank? (that's a retorical question, not one directed at you personally).

If the new instructor offered to skip you over a high level Dan grade like 5th, or any Dan grade at all for that matter, I would question his integrity as well.

You don't shop around for the person/org. willing to give you the most rank in one shot. Hell, if that's all you want, I'll write you out a certificate for 20th Dan. Right after your cheque clears, of course...

rmclain

06-16-2009, 09:37 AM

A side question, I've never been in this situation...

I saw a few people wrote about "losing time" to bad instructors. I can understand you lost time as applied for ranking. But, did they teach anything useful (martial art skills) during that "lost time?"

R. McLain

terryl965

06-16-2009, 09:48 AM

Robert I will answer the question, yes he tought me alot and it was a validation to know he was teaching everything the right way. In the end it was his poor judgement about getting paperwork in and on time, see once you test you only have a window to get the proper paperwork in before the KKW wll dis-allow the tested for being to long in between test and paperwork being recieved. So if the instructor never actually turned it in and you believe he did and find out 8 eight years later when you submit thepaperwork you have to start at 1st again and wit the period of time to test for second and so on. So you see it is not about the training alot of the time it is about paperwork being filed at the right time before you loose that time.

KGTKD

06-16-2009, 10:21 AM

First of all I wanted to say, that we had a tester go from from 1st to 5th and received 4th. We called theh USAT and we were told by the Dan Office, that noone that applied for a skip dan got what they asked for, they received one less. That is what we were told. I have not heard anyone confirm otherwise. We have not received our certificates in the mail, just confirmation from the KKW website.

Secondly, the reason some people test for skip dans, is not for entitlement. In our case we tested for a specific dan, passed, and were promised kkw certification. unfortunately, we were scammed. And its not like you can just pick up and leave, unharmed. We truly believed in this person. I can't explain it and do it justice, but when you believe in an instructor wholeheartedly, its a huge disappointment when you find out you were being scammed.

After talking to some wonderful people, we found out that we were not alone. We sent videos of our tests, and received confirmation from a 7th Dan KKW that the test was an accurate depiction of what a 2nd, 3rd, 4th Dan test were supposed to look like. So we were going to have to wait the time necessary for our Korean Dan "catch" up to our "American" Dan. We have this rare opporunity where we can "test" for something we already earned, but now will receive the appropriate certification to be able to certify other's black belts. I hope this wasn't too confusing, I just wanted to clarify our reasoning for skip testing.

Bars on our belts, are just that bars. However in other to certify our student's black belts, we need to continue our "continuing education credits" if you will, by pursuing advancement in our black belt curriculum. We don't need bars to pursue taekwondo knowledge or skill. We do that because we love the sport :)

IcemanSK

06-16-2009, 10:35 AM

I've told my story here before, but it fits in this thread, too. I was under a guy for a long time who claimed credentials he didn't have & gave phony certs. in an org. that he wasn't a part of. I discovered this the hard way when I was literally laughed out of a GM's office when I showed him my well-earned, but bogus cert. from this instructor. Did I learn good things from said phony? Yup. But it doesn't make up for being sold a Fauxlex watch. It's not like I could pass on rank to my students in the org. I'd allegedly tested in.

When I connected with my current GM, he accepted my 2nd Dan that I received from said instructor & eventually tested me for 3rd in his org. (I was a 2nd Dan for 19 years) But I wasn't able to skip dan for my 3rd Dan KKW. It wasn't offered & I didn't ask for it. In the early 90's, I sat on a 1st gup board for a guy who is now a 6th Dan in two arts (but that's another Oprah).

I'm not sure that I'd do a skip dan test if it was offered to me. It is very appealing I will admit. In my org. we wear a braid on our left sleeve of our dress doboks. One braid for every 4 years of training. I have more braids on my sleeve than some of 4th dans in my org have years on the planet. They willingly call my "sir" & respect & seek out my opinion on training info. My 1st master (a very good man, not the knucklehead who tested me for 2nd Dan) now teaches golf (not TKD) although he still trains. He was quite impressed that I'm still training & teaching since we last spoke 22 years ago.

All in all, I'm content with where I am in my rank. If someone is able to skip dan, more power to them. Judging from what I've heard about Vegas, they weren't given lightly.

My $.02

dancingalone

06-16-2009, 10:40 AM

This goes back to Michael's question. Just how common is a 5th dan in taekwondo anyway? Even in the legit orgs like the KKW or the ITF (s)? How many are there and how many new 5th dans and above are awarded each year?

I suspect no one here will have the answer, but I just have a feeling that they're more common than I would like. It's a bit weird IMO to have 2nd and 3rd dans regarded as relatively insignificant ranks.

miguksaram

06-16-2009, 11:17 AM

I chose to test at Vegas because my GM could not skip me to 6th and they (KKW and USAT) said they could.

Was it KKW AND USAT or just USAT that offered the skip dan? USAT was the one holding the test and screening the applicants from what I understand. KKW was just there to conduct the test. So I wonder if USAT offered things that they shouldn't have. Did anyone who applied for a skip dan to 6th make it? Just curious.

miguksaram

06-16-2009, 11:24 AM

First of all I wanted to say, that we had a tester go from from 1st to 5th and received 4th. We called theh USAT and we were told by the Dan Office, that noone that applied for a skip dan got what they asked for, they received one less.

Ok, so what happens to the money you paid for the extra dan. It is my understanding that you were charged for each testing grade (example you skip 2nd to 4th you pay for a 3rd dan test and 4th dan test). If you were deny the top dan you were testing for what happens to that money? Are you just S.O.L. (Somthing Other than Lucky) or is credited towards future testing? It seems odd that everyone was denied the top dan that they were applying for (if applying for skip dan testing). What was their reasoning behind this?

d1jinx

06-16-2009, 11:25 AM

Okay, so my simple question trying to get an idea about who tested and how they did has turned into a
"ethical and moral rights and reasons for skip dan".

This sounds like the topic for another post as it doesnt address any of the original questions or topic of the post. Exactly why i keep my self off of forums because its just an avenue for argument.

Having said that....

I will try to address a few things that have been the new focus and topic.
Flying Crane is not the only one who has these questions but i am using his statement as the example. Many have also co-signed his statements and feelings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d1jinx (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1185187#post1185187)
I chose to test at Vegas because my GM could not skip me to 6th and they (KKW and USAT) said they could.

Originally for the record, I would not have done it for 5th.

I AM glad to have done it now. Even if it was only for 5th.

This looks like the entitlement mentality that I am talking about. Why would one go outside of one's own teacher for testing and rank? Just to skip rank? To get "more" in one shot? To circumvent one's teacher because he won't/can't give you what you want? I don't get it. From my perspective, it looks more like a sales job on the part of the Org.

I would never go looking for rank from someone, either a person or an organization, outside of my instructor. It just doesn't make sense. My instructor is the only one in a position to give me rank, if he feels I deserve it. I would never circle around him to get more rank from anyone else, particularly anyone with whom I haven't studied.

I dunno. Maybe this organization feels that kind of thing is OK. But again, I really really really don't get it.

Why did I "choose" to test at Vegas and not my GM?

Because skip Dan testing at high ranks is "USUALLY" required to be done in person at the KKW.... In Korea.... the test was here in Vegas, my GM who is an 8th Dan KKW gave me permission.
Why would I "shop around" for a rank and circumvent my teacher.

I didn’t. Read above.
Why would Think 5th Dan isn’t high enough?

I do. Personally I HAVE NEVER cared about rank. My skills and abilities speak for themselves.
Why would I want 6th if I don’t care about rank?

Because myself and others have been ripped off many times for many years testing for KKW certificates. And I never cared about a KKW certificate. BUT I also don’t live in the same neighborhood, city, or state where I grew up. Actually I don’t stay in the same place very long. Some of us have careers which take us around the world... like being in the military. We don’t have the luxury of building a reputation for 20+ years in the local community where we teach. A KKW is recognized where ever I end up. Do you know how it felt when you’re a third Dan for years and you show up at a new school where no one knows you and the instructor tells you your not really a third Dan. Here’s a few words to describe it... foolish, anger, robbed, embarrassed, confused....
But still why 6th?

Because my Current GM is old. I dont know how long he will be around... maybe not even Long enough to get 6th in 5 more years and 7th is not an option for me. I do not wish to find myself begging or paying some ridiculous amout of money to someone who did show up at Vegas, to test myself for 6th or one of my students for 5th when the time comes. I will never put any of my students into the position that I have found myself in quite a few times. I will not be do that to anyone. If I had gotten 6th, I do not have to rely on others.

Well what qualifies you for 6th?

Skills, abilities, lifelong dedication and contribution to the art. requirements set by KKW and my GM permission. and sure... to try to unwrong past wrong doings and prevent them from happening again to anyone I know.

So if that does answer enough or anyone dissagrees please start a NEW FORUM and please try to stick to the orginal question. I will gladly answer anything else on that one.

d1jinx

06-16-2009, 11:29 AM

Was it KKW AND USAT or just USAT that offered the skip dan? USAT was the one holding the test and screening the applicants from what I understand. KKW was just there to conduct the test. So I wonder if USAT offered things that they shouldn't have. Did anyone who applied for a skip dan to 6th make it? Just curious.
That is what i hoped to find out on this thread. Not go into a discussion about why i feel i should skip to 6th.

USAT offered. KKW reviewed and approved. They even had us test by group (4-6th) so they (KKW) knew. so why test us if you had no intentions on passing. That is the whole pupose of this question that started the thread. not many answers... thread has gone a different route from intended.

miguksaram

06-16-2009, 11:31 AM

So if that does answer enough or anyone dissagrees please start a NEW FORUM and please try to stick to the orginal question. I will gladly answer anything else on that one.
Welcome to the wonderful world of thread jacking...best get used to it.:redcaptur

d1jinx

06-16-2009, 11:33 AM

Ok, so what happens to the money you paid for the extra dan. It is my understanding that you were charged for each testing grade (example you skip 2nd to 4th you pay for a 3rd dan test and 4th dan test). If you were deny the top dan you were testing for what happens to that money? Are you just S.O.L. (Somthing Other than Lucky) or is credited towards future testing? It seems odd that everyone was denied the top dan that they were applying for (if applying for skip dan testing). What was their reasoning behind this?

I'm tryng to get those answers. I asked a whole set of questons to USAT. USAT said KKW has those answers and they are trying to find out. We'll see.

miguksaram

06-16-2009, 11:39 AM

That is what i hoped to find out on this thread. Not go into a discussion about why i feel i should skip to 6th.

USAT offered. KKW reviewed and approved. They even had us test by group (4-6th) so they (KKW) knew. so why test us if you had no intentions on passing. That is the whole pupose of this question that started the thread. not many answers... thread has gone a different route from intended.

I am not questioning your reason to skip dan. Honestly...I don't care. Right or wrong that is your decision. If you feel you deserve it, then go for it. If you are trying to buck the system, then it will just bite you in the ass in the long run. Again...your reasons are your own.

Now subject at hand, I have heard that it was USAT that reviewed and approved not KKW. KKW just tested, not 100% sure on that one though. Also, not to sound like and ass, but maybe those who tested just weren't ready for 6th dan. Not saying this is the reason, just putting it out there.

Flying Crane

06-16-2009, 11:58 AM

Okay, so my simple question trying to get an idea about who tested and how they did has turned into a
"ethical and moral rights and reasons for skip dan".

This sounds like the topic for another post as it doesnt address any of the original questions or topic of the post. Exactly why i keep my self off of forums because its just an avenue for argument.

Having said that....

I will try to address a few things that have been the new focus and topic.
Flying Crane is not the only one who has these questions but i am using his statement as the example. Many have also co-signed his statements and feelings.

Why did I "choose" to test at Vegas and not my GM?

Because skip Dan testing at high ranks is "USUALLY" required to be done in person at the KKW.... In Korea.... the test was here in Vegas, my GM who is an 8th Dan KKW gave me permission.
Why would I "shop around" for a rank and circumvent my teacher.

I didn’t. Read above.
Why would Think 5th Dan isn’t high enough?

I do. Personally I HAVE NEVER cared about rank. My skills and abilities speak for themselves.
Why would I want 6th if I don’t care about rank?

Because myself and others have been ripped off many times for many years testing for KKW certificates. And I never cared about a KKW certificate. BUT I also don’t live in the same neighborhood, city, or state where I grew up. Actually I don’t stay in the same place very long. Some of us have careers which take us around the world... like being in the military. We don’t have the luxury of building a reputation for 20+ years in the local community where we teach. A KKW is recognized where ever I end up. Do you know how it felt when you’re a third Dan for years and you show up at a new school where no one knows you and the instructor tells you your not really a third Dan. Here’s a few words to describe it... foolish, anger, robbed, embarrassed, confused....
But still why 6th?

Because my Current GM is old. I dont know how long he will be around... maybe not even Long enough to get 6th in 5 more years and 7th is not an option for me. I do not wish to find myself begging or paying some ridiculous amout of money to someone who did show up at Vegas, to test myself for 6th or one of my students for 5th when the time comes. I will never put any of my students into the position that I have found myself in quite a few times. I will not be do that to anyone. If I had gotten 6th, I do not have to rely on others.

Well what qualifies you for 6th?

Skills, abilities, lifelong dedication and contribution to the art. requirements set by KKW and my GM permission. and sure... to try to unwrong past wrong doings and prevent them from happening again to anyone I know.

So if that does answer enough or anyone dissagrees please start a NEW FORUM and please try to stick to the orginal question. I will gladly answer anything else on that one.

Thank you for your answer. It sounds like there is a lot of politics and other problems inherent in dealing with large organizations, and that can be magnified when it is more than one org. and one of those is international.

I personally don't approve of the whole idea of skipping dan grades, but that's my opinion. It's not my intention to derail the thread. I've asked my questions and expressed my opinion, and I don't intend to push the subject further.

NPTKD

06-16-2009, 12:27 PM

Is there really anyway in todays time to really test someone for 4th, 5th, 6th etc.... I mean color belt yes, it the kick is wrong or the self defense is poor or the poomsae looked weak. But at the 4th dan and higher levels?
You can teach anyone to do any poomsae... So that really isn't a judge ( but it is) anyone can learn self defense..buy a DVD or something.
Even sparring, I've color belt that could take black belt ( sport & street)

So what is left... It's not all ablility. It can't be. Time in rank? So someone who is weak in all the area's listed above could just sit back and wait for thier time in rank to come.

Is it that they own thier own school with 100's of students? People would just call them a Mcdojang and not a good instructor.

Is it who you know... My grandmaster is this or My grandmaster is that!

Or is it what group you belong to ( AAU,USAT,KKW,ATA etc..)?

Its hard to define when you think about.Is it all or some of these things?

Or is it just the person? I'm a little or a lot of these things. I'm sure alot of you are the same. Maybe I have a problem, but I think about TKD every minute of every day. I find my self counting things I do as if they were a Poom line, When I out with my wife I look for possible self defense issues. I think about them betterment of my school and my students.

What is it...really what make a higher dan. Is it a certifiacate ( I can make you one) Is it the belt with all those stripes ( I can order you one, silver or gold letters, Korean or english?)

Or for eough money I can test you for six hours, have you spar 20 black belt, break 6 brick, write a essay of 1000 words or more on the topic of what a black belt means to you and do every self defense that you ever learned infront of your family.

Is that a 4th, 5th ,6th or more?

d1jinx

06-16-2009, 04:05 PM

Now subject at hand, I have heard that it was USAT that reviewed and approved not KKW. KKW just tested, not 100% sure on that one though. Also, not to sound like and ass, but maybe those who tested just weren't ready for 6th dan. Not saying this is the reason, just putting it out there.

As for KKW approval, I will forward the email from USAT about my packaged being approved and KKW having the final approval to ALLOW me to test. Not saying that is what happened but that was supposed to happen.....

And not being ready for 6th.....
I will except that if it is the case. If i wasnt good enough then i wasn't. But how am I supposed to know. How can I know why I didn't make it? I cannot get an answer. Even if the money i paid dissappeared never to be seen or used by me again then oh well. I'm not crying about not passing, or loosing my money. How can I better myself without know how I perform? So to try to answer this I asked the question that started this thread (please reread post #1 and see how far we have came from the subject) One person answered. the rest have just added opinions and here-say. Not my intention or what I wanted to know.

d1jinx

06-16-2009, 04:07 PM

lets try this again.... if you have more to add see the new thread. if not....

please stick to this ?

Who Tested in Vegas for KKW.
Anyone who tested in Vegas at the US Open,

1). Have you recieved your certificates yet?
2). Did you pass?
3). For those who were skipping, Did you get the rank you were applying for?
4). Have you heard anything ( official ) about the test?

Probably the most frustrating thing about this has been the lack of information. Am i alone in the dark or is everyone else here too?

Thanks

terryl965

06-16-2009, 04:34 PM

No matter how you ask nobody knows anything yet and they are being real secret about it. Why because it is USAT and they can do whatever they like to whoever they like.

KGTKD

06-16-2009, 05:06 PM

1). Have you recieved your certificates yet? No
2). Did you pass? 1 (applied 1st to 3rd) no, 1 (applied 1st to 5th) yes, but got 4th
3). For those who were skipping, Did you get the rank you were applying for? no applied from 1st to 5th (long story) and got 4th
4). Have you heard anything ( official ) about the test? see below.

Howdy again,
I just spoke to USAT (an hour ago), if you are unhappy about whether or not you passed, send a formal letter to USAT TONIGHT, because David Askinas is having a meeting with KKW, to discuss the petitions of people who are arguing their results. They have a list of people who have petitioned formally and as I understand it, they are only asking about those who have formally petitioned.

Figured I would let you all know.

Flying Crane

06-16-2009, 05:18 PM

Howdy again,
I just spoke to USAT (an hour ago), if you are unhappy about whether or not you passed, send a formal letter to USAT TONIGHT, because David Askinas is having a meeting with KKW, to discuss the petitions of people who are arguing their results. They have a list of people who have petitioned formally and as I understand it, they are only asking about those who have formally petitioned.

Figured I would let you all know.

sorry, I know this is none of my business and I meant to jump out of this thread, but I couldn't help noticing this post.

People actually argue and dispute the results of their test, if they fail? I've never heard of such a thing. Are they ever successful? I mean, the thought of approaching the testing board or org. or Grand Master or whatever, and telling them they are wrong and I deserve the rank that they failed me on...I just never would have even considered such a move. Is this common? Is this an accepted practice?

Tames D

06-16-2009, 05:24 PM

...And the times they are a changing... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

d1jinx

06-16-2009, 05:24 PM

KGTKD, thankyou. Those are the type of responses i was hoping to get. From a few I have read, there definately seems to be a pattern. The more people respond, the brighter the pattern and the more clearly we can see what may be going on. A statistics thing called sampling... that was i was hoping to accomplish.

As for contacting Mr Askinas, I have. Not to complain or protest. how can I tell kukkiwon that i deserve to pass because i think so. Instead to get some answers about some legit questions I and others have. If they flat out say "it is what it is" then so be it. But noone should be kept in the dark. I trust that he will get the answers we ask eventually.

any one else test?

KGTKD

06-16-2009, 06:25 PM

sorry, I know this is none of my business and I meant to jump out of this thread, but I couldn't help noticing this post.

People actually argue and dispute the results of their test, if they fail? I've never heard of such a thing. Are they ever successful? I mean, the thought of approaching the testing board or org. or Grand Master or whatever, and telling them they are wrong and I deserve the rank that they failed me on...I just never would have even considered such a move. Is this common? Is this an accepted practice?

Lol, when people pass solely because of their ethnicity, you are right, there are going to be people that are upset. When people pass without testing, people are going to be upset. People will be upset when they spend over $2000 to take a test and are told they didn't pass to a the degree they applied for because, "noone got what they tested for, they got one degree less". Unfortunately, people want to be tested fairly. I don't think that is too much to ask for, especially when they are at the core of the tenets. :) We didn't petition (although I think we'd have a case), at this point, we just want the certificate and to know what is going to happen to the extra money.

Flying Crane

06-16-2009, 07:36 PM

Lol, when people pass solely because of their ethnicity, you are right, there are going to be people that are upset. When people pass without testing, people are going to be upset. People will be upset when they spend over $2000 to take a test and are told they didn't pass to a the degree they applied for because, "noone got what they tested for, they got one degree less". Unfortunately, people want to be tested fairly. I don't think that is too much to ask for, especially when they are at the core of the tenets. :) We didn't petition (although I think we'd have a case), at this point, we just want the certificate and to know what is going to happen to the extra money.

It seems to me that what is taking precedence and priority is the relationship with the Org, over the relationship with one's teacher. To me, that seems backwards. One's teacher ought to be the one testing you, and ought to have the final say whether you passed or failed, because he has developed the relationship with you and knows you better than the Org. If the teacher is in good standing with the Org, then he ought to be able to get the proper certificates and whatnot, once you pass.

But it looks like people are stepping around their teacher to test (and complain and petition to) the Org. And from some of the posts here, it looks to me like this is a well-established and common practice, at least with the particular Orgs here under discussion, the KKW and the USAT. I don't have any familiarity with them, so I don't exactly get their relationship and interaction, but it just looks very strange to me.

Of course everyone wants to be tested fairly and evaluated accordingly. And everyone wants to pay whatever is the fair fee, and not be paying for something that is not delivered. But then, if you've paid $2k to test for the extra dan grade, does that entitle you to that grade? If you've paid that much money, does one feel entitled to the rank, regardless? Is it not still possible to simply fail the test, even tho you've paid so much in fees?

But then it's easy to point fingers at the Org and accuse them of simply pocketing the extra fee and arbitrarily refusing to grant the rank. If the rank was truly deserved, and they collected a fee for it, then they have an obligation to bestow it. But who makes these decisions? Who gets to decide if the test was successful or not? And who gets to challenge that decision? Does nobody else see the dysfunctional relationship inherent in this? I see a whole can of worms here, wriggling around the dollars.

I've never been involved with an organization or school that demands these kinds of fees. Nothing even remotely close. So it's quite foreign to me and I really don't understand it. Just reading this thread has given me a picture of the many problems that arise with big organizations and big fees.