No Closed Fist Strikes?

[t01880]

In Rory Miller's Meditations on Violence , he mentions a style of Okinawan karate that had no closed fist strikes until the modern era. I found this interesting.

So my question is this:

Are there any striking based forms of karate/kung fu/korean arts that have NO closed fist strikes?

If so, what are they and what has been your experience with them?

Thanks for your time.

Tom

[clfsean]

In Rory Miller's Meditations on Violence , he mentions a style of Okinawan karate that had no closed fist strikes until the modern era. I found this interesting.

So my question is this:

Are there any striking based forms of karate/kung fu/korean arts that have NO closed fist strikes?

If so, what are they and what has been your experience with them?

Thanks for your time.

Tom

What's the name of the style he mentioned?

Everything I've done has open & closed hands.

[t01880]

that's the thing, he doesn't mention the name.

[clfsean]

that's the thing, he doesn't mention the name.


I'll have to ask around & I think he's on a board that I'm on. I'll check there too...

**sent a PM to Rory... I'll let you know what I hear.**

[clfsean]

Per Rory... Uechi ryu.

[Xue Sheng]

In Rory Miller's Meditations on Violence , he mentions a style of Okinawan karate that had no closed fist strikes until the modern era. I found this interesting.

So my question is this:

Are there any striking based forms of karate/kung fu/korean arts that have NO closed fist strikes?

If so, what are they and what has been your experience with them?

Thanks for your time.

Tom

Police/Military Sanda

The training for palm strikes is rather hard. You do a whole lot of strike training on things like walls and trees.

[Tez3]

Police/Military Sanda

The training for palm strikes is rather hard. You do a whole lot of strike training on things like walls and trees.

Walls and trees are deadly things, every week we pick up soldiers that have been attacked by them...seriously! Well, okay they are drunk and walk into them lol!

[Xue Sheng]

Walls and trees are deadly things, every week we pick up soldiers that have been attacked by them...seriously! Well, okay they are drunk and walk into them lol!

Had one jump me once... seriously, it took me out of MA for a bit too.

[girlbug2]

:drinky:Xue, was that a wall or a tree?

[Rich Parsons]

In Rory Miller's Meditations on Violence , he mentions a style of Okinawan karate that had no closed fist strikes until the modern era. I found this interesting.

So my question is this:

Are there any striking based forms of karate/kung fu/korean arts that have NO closed fist strikes?

If so, what are they and what has been your experience with them?

Thanks for your time.

Tom

I do not know anything about a non closed fist striking system form Japan, but it sounds like you have some good guys like Sean looking into it and providing some good feedback.

I do know that some police organizations train in special programs that will highlight the use of open hand techniques.

I personally like the use of open hand techniques, but that could be just my exerpience from being a bouncer years ago.

[punisher73]

Per Rory... Uechi ryu.


I had thought of that style, they mainly using open hand/spearhand techniques. But, they do still have closed fist strikes (punches) as well.

Their Sanchin kata still utilizes the open hand strikes as it was thought to be originally taught. Also, if you watch their kata, I would say that a LARGE percentage of the hand techniques are all open handed.

[clfsean]

I had thought of that style, they mainly using open hand/spearhand techniques. But, they do still have closed fist strikes (punches) as well.

Their Sanchin kata still utilizes the open hand strikes as it was thought to be originally taught. Also, if you watch their kata, I would say that a LARGE percentage of the hand techniques are all open handed.

That was my thought & I told Rory it's hard to think of Uechi & not think of a fist. But then I sat & thought about what Rory said & it makes sense. He said Uechi had the fists added in to be more "mainline" with what was going on in Okinawa. They still use a large percentage of open hand strikes (my thoughts after the fact) but you still see the fist (my thoughts at first).

That I can think of almost all of the Chinese Sam Chien (mainly White Crane & 5 Ancestor) I've seen is open handed. I'd have to review video to be sure, but I'm confident it's all open handed.

[Touch Of Death]

In Rory Miller's Meditations on Violence , he mentions a style of Okinawan karate that had no closed fist strikes until the modern era. I found this interesting.

So my question is this:

Are there any striking based forms of karate/kung fu/korean arts that have NO closed fist strikes?

If so, what are they and what has been your experience with them?

Thanks for your time.

TomIn our school we only close part of the fist. I know that doesn't count.
Sean

[Xue Sheng]

:drinky:Xue, was that a wall or a tree?

Tree. :drinkbeer

And when I say jumped I mean more like fell. I was working on a tree farm (white oak and cherry) at the time. This is why to this day I say "never trust a tree" :cool:

[Rich Parsons]

Tree. :drinkbeer

And when I say jumped I mean more like fell. I was working on a tree farm (white oak and cherry) at the time. This is why to this day I say "never trust a tree" :cool:

My grandfather was a tree surgeon until a tree fell that was marked safe and solid. He lived but in a wheel chair the rest of his life, my whole life that I knew him.

Trees can be very dangerous. Listen to Xue he seems to have experience and knowledge. :)

[Xue Sheng]

My grandfather was a tree surgeon until a tree fell that was marked safe and solid. He lived but in a wheel chair the rest of his life, my whole life that I knew him.

Trees can be very dangerous. Listen to Xue he seems to have experience and knowledge. :)

Yes I know how to get hit by a tree and why it is not a good idea :D

Also why Sanda is perfect, you train open palm strikes on trees, it was just my little way of getting even :EG:

About 30 years ago my uncle had one fall on him as well it landed on his legs (turned one 180 degrees) it put him in the hospital for a very long time and got him several operataions but luckily he is still walking and in his 80s now.

[howard]

Are there any striking based forms of... korean arts that have NO closed fist strikes?

If so, what are they and what has been your experience with them?


I'd have to say yes.

Jungki hapkido, which is based on the aikijujutsu that Choi Yong Sul learned in Japan, does not use closed-fist strikes. We use a good variety of hand, wrist, forearm and elbow strikes, but none with the fist closed, unless you'd include the single-knuckle strike (forefinger or middle finger).

It's always struck me as curious.

[Live True]

First, if this post contributes to thread drift, please, moderators, feel free to split into another post.

I'm curious and would love to hear other's thoughts on this. I actually train in Uechi-ryu, and we do use a lot of open hand techniques. There are closed fist punches, but all motions (at least as I have been taught to date) are taught as potentials.

My current thought on this is that an important part of Uechi is the ability to grab. The hiraken (flat fist), shoken (one knuckle fist), and boshiken (fingertips and thumb in open, claw-like position) are all quickly and easily adaptable to pinching and grabbing. These can be used offensively (throwing your opponent off balance, controlling thier movements) and defensively (grabbing/pinching sensitive spots to cause release or pause in your attacker).

So, I'd love someone more experienced than I to comment on whether this may be the point? or at least one consideration?

I will also post this to the uechi-ryu forums and let you know what comes of the discussions there.

[Xue Sheng]

First, if this post contributes to thread drift, please, moderators, feel free to split into another post.

I'm curious and would love to hear other's thoughts on this. I actually train in Uechi-ryu, and we do use a lot of open hand techniques. There are closed fist punches, but all motions (at least as I have been taught to date) are taught as potentials.

My current thought on this is that an important part of Uechi is the ability to grab. The hiraken (flat fist), shoken (one knuckle fist), and boshiken (fingertips and thumb in open, claw-like position) are all quickly and easily adaptable to pinching and grabbing. These can be used offensively (throwing your opponent off balance, controlling thier movements) and defensively (grabbing/pinching sensitive spots to cause release or pause in your attacker).

So, I'd love someone more experienced than I to comment on whether this may be the point? or at least one consideration?

I will also post this to the uechi-ryu forums and let you know what comes of the discussions there.

I have no idea if I am more experienced than you but looking at this from a Sanda perspective you can switch much easier, IMO, to a grab (Qinna ad Shuaijiao) from an open hand strike than a fist and, IMO, you are less likely to show your intent to strike using an open hand strike than you are with a fist.

[Live True]

Xue, you are most definatley more experienced, as I am only 1 1/2 years into my training and a mere Nana Kyu. It's nice to know I've got a little bit of a clue in my thinking, though! Thank you.

[sempai little1]

Xue, you are most definatley more experienced, as I am only 1 1/2 years into my training and a mere Nana Kyu. It's nice to know I've got a little bit of a clue in my thinking, though! Thank you.


There is no such thing as a "mere" anything.
Be proud of what you are and say with confidence. "I am a Nana Kyu".
As I am sure you are very proud of your rank.
Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

[Xue Sheng]

There is no such thing as a "mere" anything.
Be proud of what you are and say with confidence. "I am a Nana Kyu".
As I am sure you are very proud of your rank.
Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

Agreed, sorry I missed that before

For the record, I'm a CMA guy and have no rank at all :asian:

EDIT:

What is a Nana Kyu?

[sempai little1]

Agreed, sorry I missed that before

For the record, I'm a CMA guy and have no rank at all :asian:

EDIT:

What is a Nana Kyu?

I believe it is thier 3rd under belt ranking.
correct me if I am wrong.
Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

[clfsean]

nana = 7th...

[Xue Sheng]

Although I appreciate the responses...3rd under and 7th still mean little to me.

Is there a color of the belt and/or a stripe involved, remember I am old and a CMA guy :D

In my Jujitsu days there was only White, Green, Brown and Black with various stripes in between and my TKD days were only different because they threw a yellow belt in between white and green...I'M OLD you know :D

[sempai little1]

nana = 7th...
So they graded 7 times.
In our style we count backwards with the kyu belts so a 7th kyu would have graded 3 times. so we work from 10th kyu to 1st kyu, that is when you become a Black Belt candidate.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

[Rich Parsons]

Although I appreciate the responses...3rd under and 7th still mean little to me.

Is there a color of the belt and/or a stripe involved, remember I am old and a CMA guy :D


Many use 9 or 10 before black belts.

So 7th up or 3 under tries to give you a feel for them being in the middle or upper middle of the colored belt ranks.

But that is just my rough estimate. ;)

[clfsean]

So they graded 7 times.
In our style we count backwards with the kyu belts so a 7th kyu would have graded 3 times. so we work from 10th kyu to 1st kyu, that is when you become a Black Belt candidate.

Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

No... Nana-kyu means 7th kyu.

Japanese IIRC doesn't have the same word for seventh & seven, as say fifth & five ...

They could've graded anywhere from 1 time to 3 or however long they take to reach that level. It's just a number...

Jyu-kyu 10th
Kyu-kyu 9th
Hachi-kyu 8th
Nana-kyu 7th
....
ik-kyu

then

shodan

[clfsean]

Although I appreciate the responses...3rd under and 7th still mean little to me.

Is there a color of the belt and/or a stripe involved, remember I am old and a CMA guy :D

In my Jujitsu days there was only White, Green, Brown and Black with various stripes in between and my TKD days were only different because they threw a yellow belt in between white and green...I'M OLD you know :D

It'd probably be a white belt or maybe a green belt most likely relating to jujutsu days.

[Live True]

First, Xue and SL1, I am very proud of my rank, because it represents a lot of work and learning for me. But thanks for the slap on the wrist to remind me to stand tall!

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this...Sean is right, NanaKyu is 7th under black or white with three green stripes. This page on our club website lists our ranking system, here (http://www.glasheensasianarts.com/CurrentClub/kyu-dan%20ranks.htm).

[Live True]

also, posting to the uechi ryu forums led to some interesting conversations...not all related, (here (http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=20171)'s the thread if you want to check it as a visitor). A summary of some interesting points (I've used initials to identify posters and summarized some points, please go to thread if you wish more information):

OP: asked about history as well as whether ability to grab is one reason for more open fist techniques.

FC-The only place fists appear is in Kanshiwa, back in 77-78 when I learned it we used shokens. After striking with the shoken we quickly opened our fist so we could block and grab. [...]To me it is what you want it to be. Do you use a hammer to bang in or pull out a nail. Your tool your choice.

MA-If you look closer at Sanchin ,you will see/ feel closed fists ,along with shokens etc,etc, basicaly Sanchin contains changing hands .Fist formulations are within that structure ,other kata simply utilise component aspects of sanchin in different tactical useage " lack of fists then becomes the uechi trademark " but you could quite easy create other tactical usage that Sanchin offers incorperating [fists ] if you can create things from your on going study as you progress

MH-What is a fist? Shoken, hiraken, and seiken are all fists. It's the same fist, used differently, for backfist and hammerfist strikes. Did you mean to zero in on seiken-tsuki? The only seiken-tsuki in Uechi is the modern-day kanshiwa, and as has been previously pointed out, it is also practiced with shoken-tsuki instead of seiken-tsuki. [...]Regardless of whether one thinks of seiken-tsuki as a real Uechi technique or just a borrowed one, the emphasis compared to other styles of karate could not be more different. In Shorin-Ryu we used seiken-tsuki as the ikken hissatsu technique of choice, directed at any one of a dozen or so vulnerable targets, and since not all of them were quite so soft, we relied on our conditioning and our skill to protect our hands from injury. Uechi, IMO, does not labor under this ikken hissatsu idea, and when it appears, seiken-tsuki is just another way of striking a soft target with something hard.

JH-One should examine the differences to understand the use of the tools....
===========
Some differences:
Range--Fists are longer than palms
Spear hand is longer than fists
Spears can split incoming force
Fists can protect the fingers--palms can expose the fingers
Fists are sharp--have points, palms are blunt
Fists are rooted in the primal brain
Fists create tension and stiffness in parts of the arms and mind
Palms are more loose, relaxed and not as tense in the mind and body as are fists
==========
Fists represent a small percentage of the tool-set in many Chinese arts..
It should be noted that "fists" or open handed tools may be used to both give and receive energy, e.g. offense and defense, best executed simultaneously..

VC-This (http://www.tkdtutor.com/09Techniques/Hands/Punching/HorizontalVertical/HorizontalVertical04.htm) is a good read on punches

There are some other discussions on techniques, etc. But these are the main points to the OP

[clfsean]

Fists represent a small percentage of the tool-set in many Chinese arts..
It should be noted that "fists" or open handed tools may be used to both give and receive energy, e.g. offense and defense, best executed simultaneously..



In the south, this is very true. Not exclusive, but very true.