Is formal MA training necessary?

[Joab]

I had a friend years ago who would assert whenever the subject of martial arts came up that formal martial arts training was unnecessary. It was his belief that you could just figure out what you needed to know on your own. I suppose that is possible, after all somebody had to come up with the techniques at one time, but I'm not close to being that inventive. When I tried to defend myself against the various bullies who liked to beat me up when I was a kid, making themselves look good in front of their friends, kicking butt over a tall, skinny, weak uncoordinated kid, I would throw these wide, fully telegraphed punches that were all too easy to see coming and punch within the arc to defeat me. I suppose it is possible through trial and error to find techniques that work for you, but I think it is the rare individual indeed who could come up with some sort of system completely on his own that is better than all the formalized, systematic martial arts systems that have been battle tested over years of trial by fire. What do you think, was my friend right, or was he a bit unrealistic in his opinion?

[Twin Fist]

your friend is an idiot. The worst kind of arm chair quarterback.

[Joab]

your friend is an idiot. The worst kind of arm chair quarterback.

Former friend, I haven't seen him in years. And he was always butting into martial arts conversations with this unsolicited comment when I was talking with a friend who was into Arnis, uninvited.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Your ex-friend is wrong.

We saw in the early UFC fights that noone could beat Gracie and figure out how to beat him. Only through training in grappling could he be beaten. Most people have no idea how to get out of certain submissions like chokes and they quickly panic. Through training do you learn the technique to get out.

[Joab]

Your ex-friend is wrong.

We saw in the early UFC fights that noone could beat Gracie and figure out how to beat him. Only through training in grappling could he be beaten. Most people have no idea how to get out of certain submissions like chokes and they quickly panic. Through training do you learn the technique to get out.

Well, theoretically I think he is right, given enough time in fact a chimpanzee could type out the first verses of Genesis on a type writer, but it would take a long time, with a lot of mistakes before you got it right.

[Twin Fist]

would anyone WANT to go through that process? do you have that many teeth to spare?

[just2kicku]

Necessary no, one hell of a good idea, yes

I've known some some pretty tough street fighters with no discipline, but they had to get their asses stomped before figuring out what to do.

Personally, I would rather learn from someone elses lessons then learn that on my own.

How many times do you need to get punched in the mouth before figuring out that closing your eyes and flinching doesn't work?

[shihansmurf]

No, formal training isn't necessary.

I mean, you don't need to be taught other skills right?

You can teach yourself to skydive? If, that is, you're a very fast learner.
The drop out rate for self taught sky diving is pretty high though......

:)

Honestly, if a person wanted to teach themselves martial arts, I'm sure that they could have a certain level of success at it. The level wouldn't be very high, but a degree of ability is achievable. They could use books and videos, and assuming that they worked with diligence they could get quite skilled at parroting the information in the source material. Without a partner, though to actually try the material on all that great info(and there is a wealth of it on videos, amazing reference tools) remains purely thoeretical and non-applicable. More importantly, if that person's partner is just as ignorant of the skill set as he is, then his ability to give meaningful feedback is sorely limited.

If you want to learn martial arts and be a skilled martial artist, you need a teacher and that requires formalized(by that I mean having a teacher/student relationship and someone to train with) instruction. If you just want to ape the movements that you watched on a video or read about in a book, then you can get by without it, but you won't be able to perform martial arts very well. Depends on your goals, really.

One last thought, people who learn from books and videos are not self taught. They have simply substituted a non-responsive medium in place of an actual interactive instructor. They are not teaching themselves anything, they are still learning from whomever made that video or wrote that book. I wonder why, aside from geographical reasons, a person would choose to learn from a video of a given teacher over that real teacher? I tend to think that its because the live instructor would make corrections and hold the students to performing the material correctly, and being critiqued isn't acceptable to the type of "martial artist" that seeks to short circuit their training by avoiding a "formal" training experience.

Videos have their place. They are a great suplimental tool for an experienced martial artist. If you have a solid base of martial art skills then a book or video can grant you new insight or perspective. They can show you aspects of the arts that you have'nt been exposed to that you, then can experiment with and will serve to help you improve. Self Directed study in the martial arts is something you grow into, not start out being able to perform. You need formal training to ingrain that solid knowledge base.

Just my view
Mark

[geezer]

I had a friend years ago who would assert whenever the subject of martial arts came up that formal martial arts training was unnecessary.

I would agree that formal training is unnecessary if you have a lot of experienced friends and training partners who will work with you and share their skills with you informally. Throughout history gifted individuals have emerged in the arts and sciences (including the martial arts) who have been portrayed as autodidacts. But on closer examination, it turns out that these supposedly self-taught individuals usually did learn from others, but informally, piecing together the information they needed to succeed. It is worth noting that such rare individuals capture our attention because it is definitely a harder road to success. Obviously, this kind of self-teaching and exploration is a lot more feasible after a person has achieved a high level of competence through traditional training methods.



It was his belief that you could just figure out what you needed to know on your own.

Now that's just ignorant.

[jks9199]

Formal training? Maybe not, if you define formal as a class and rigid curriculum.

Some form of training? Maybe not essential, if you're that rare individual who has the combination of natural talent and ability, and some pretty good medical insurance.

Sure, you might figure out the efficient ways of moving your body and ways to hit without harming yourself by trial and error. But those errors are going to be painful, at a minimum, and possibly crippling.

Of course, you could also fly from Virginia to California by basically repeating the Wright brothers experiments, developing material sciences and engineering, and eventually building your own jet, too. But isn't it a whole lot simpler to go to the airport and buy a ticket on an airline?

Same thing with learning to fight; isn't it simpler to at least start by learning what already worked for others? (And, sometimes, didn't work?)

[MarkBarlow]

Did your ex-friend ever pit his theory against the reality of a formally trained martial artist?

I often have guys in their teens and early twentys (not picking on that age group, just stating a fact) who drop by the dojo and tell me they're self-trained or have been training in the backyard with friends. The few times they've gotten out on the mat and seen how little they truly know has only hastened their exit. None have hung around long enough to learn what they thought they already knew.

It's easy to roll around with friends or swing sticks at each other and think you are accomplishing something. Once the circle is expanded and you are forced to deal with someone better, bigger, faster than yourself, self-training doesn't seem like such a great idea.

[searcher]

I knew a guy a few years ago that shared the same ideology about MA training. He said that he had fought a "karate guy"(I happened to know the guy he was referring to) and that he had beat the guy down pretty bad.

Now, given that the guy I am referring to(the idiot) was 6'4" and around 300lbs with the "karate guy" checking in at 5'5" and 120lbs and with only a couple of months training in, the fight did not end well for the MAist. Fast forward to my discussion with him, I am 6'3" and 225lbs and he thinks he is going to wipe the floor with me(at that time with only 22 years of training and 10 years of full contact fighting). But low and behold, before I could get ahold of him, he gets the crap stomped out of him by another MAist who was smaller and very seasoned in the art of Momma Said Break Yo D*** Jaw-do.

Needless to say, your friend is most likely, headed for the same route in life.

[Omar B]

Nothing other than breathing, eating and reproduction are necessary in human life, are the martial arts good to though? Yes they are.

Don't listen to armchair quarterbacks, they are loud mouths makign up for some deficiency by pointing out flaws where there are non. When I was a teen and just moved to NY I was introduced to a guy who was a "self taught martial artist." He was as agile as a monkey and could jump all over the place and to the unskilled eye his huge spinning, looping kicks looked impressive.

He constantly made fun of my going to karate class, saying thing's like "who trains since they were 5 and never fights?" As if training and fighting go hand in hand.

In any case we did end up sparring, he ended up on the ground in a puddle bleeding from the nose. He claimed I didn't use karate because I punched him! Goes to show, you can't teach the ignorant anything, just do your thing.

[Nomad]

Not at all necessary.

To become a really good fighter, go somewhere with a lot of tough, mean guys and pick a fight. If you survive, repeat. By the time you've done this a few dozen times, you'll have taught yourself a lot about what will and won't work in a fight, and will be starting to develop some pretty good technique (if you're a slow learner... sorry to your next of kin).

Of course, you could save yourself a lot of danger and pain by training first and learning some of the principles involved in fighting from someone else who knows what they're doing.

Keep in mind if you follow this road, there's also a chance that you won't feel as much a need to prove yourself, and could end up not knowing if the techniques you've learned are really effective in that life and death situation that you've avoided instead of leaping headfirst into. Your choice, really.

[shihansmurf]

Of course, you could save yourself a lot of danger and pain by training first and learning some of the principles involved in fighting from someone else who knows what they're doing.


Oh sure, if you wanna do things the smart and safe way. Where would the sense of accomplishment be in that?

;)

Mark

[Sukerkin]

Some very good posts above that go to prove, as if it needed proving, that there are a number of very wise heads here at MT when it comes to martial arts ... who'd have thought it? An MA site where people know what they're talking about :lol:.

It's an embarassing story to recount in some ways but one of the reasons why I had such a bad opinion of the Ninjitsu (yes, I know but that's how I learned to spell it first :D) chaps when I first joined here was my real world experiences with wannabe black pajama 'fighters'. Those people who bought into the Ninja Myth when it crept out of the shadows over here in the '80's.

I met a couple of these in my empty-hand days who were really keen to show me just how superior what they had learned from the books they had ... right up to the moment when they ended up on the deck :o. I even, to my undying shame, remember telling one chap as I helped him up "Books don't hit back!".

Other than that somewhat 'guilty pleasure', I have nothing terribly substantive to add to the points already made except to elaborate a little into the area of armed arts. Here the 'self-taught' route is even more problematic and doomed to failure of the bloody kind.

It is also one where the 'back garden baton twirlers' {they get ever so aggressive when you call them that :angel:} seem to run off at the mouth even more than the Pretend Ninjerz brigade.

I have had one of these actually 'call me out', so to speak, when I dared to criticise his swordwork on YouTube. I was tactful enough not to do so via public comment but made a private mail explaining that whilst what he was doing looked fine on video, it was not a sword art and he should not fool himself into thinking it was.

Cue bluster and offers to "see who was 'the man'". I said that ordinarily I would not think of doing such a thing and pointed out that I was not particularly well trained myself yet, only having studied for a couple of years but that if he was willing to accept the risk we could accidently hurt each other, then I was game.

Cue silence.

My point is that such people do fall into two camps. The 'Blagger' and the 'Self Deluder'. The former knows that they're talking nonsense but likes to see if 'talking the talk' is sufficient to be the Big Man. The latter is in some ways worse but at least more honest because they truly believe that their self-taught skillz are the bees-knees.

[Cirdan]

Some people are natural fighters. Even those, or rather particularly those, can benefit greatly from seeking out a good teacher.

The selftaught backyard ninjers with their 440 katanas and claims like "there are no punches in eastern arts" are a constant source of amusement.

[Joab]

would anyone WANT to go through that process? do you have that many teeth to spare?

No, I don't have that many teeth to spare.

[Joab]

Thanks to everyone for their input. Yes, this guy was basically ignorant, and one wastes a lot of time listening to ignorant people. I have trained with teachers who had a lot of street fighting experience and what they taught came from what they found worked. Its a far more intelligent approach to learn from someone who knows what they are doing than just trying to figure it out on your own. No sense in trying to rediscover the wheel, learn form those who know what they are talking about.

And what this rather ignorant fellow seemed to be suggesting was that you could just figure out on your own how to defend yourself, just start practicing random movements and figure it out on your own. I think that is ludicrous. He also tried to discourage me from martial arts training by stating "With your size you don't have anything to worry about" Being big is not enough, and sometimes is a magnet. A lot of guys want to pick a fight with a big guy to make themselves look impressive. And I'm not huge, 6' over 200, a heavyweight yes, but no NFL lineman type. An ignorant fellow was what my ex friend was, and ignorant fellows desrve to not be listened too.

[TigerCraneGuy]

Thanks to everyone for their input. Yes, this guy was basically ignorant, and one wastes a lot of time listening to ignorant people. I have trained with teachers who had a lot of street fighting experience and what they taught came from what they found worked. Its a far more intelligent approach to learn from someone who knows what they are doing than just trying to figure it out on your own. No sense in trying to rediscover the wheel, learn form those who know what they are talking about.

And what this rather ignorant fellow seemed to be suggesting was that you could just figure out on your own how to defend yourself, just start practicing random movements and figure it out on your own. I think that is ludicrous. He also tried to discourage me from martial arts training by stating "With your size you don't have anything to worry about" Being big is not enough, and sometimes is a magnet. A lot of guys want to pick a fight with a big guy to make themselves look impressive. And I'm not huge, 6' over 200, a heavyweight yes, but no NFL lineman type. An ignorant fellow was what my ex friend was, and ignorant fellows desrve to not be listened too.

Well said, friend. Ignore the armchair warriors.

As it is written:

The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness. (Proverbs 15:2)

Nuff said :)

Regards,
TCG

[Steve Grody]

Joab,
While it is unlikely that your friend would come up with everything necessary or efficient, what would be a positive thing about his attitude is that he might indeed come up with something that actually worked for him because he would have to rely on his experience rather than experience far removed which is often the case in the least interactive martial arts. Interestingly, Guro Edgar Sulite's main teacher, Jose Caballero, did just that and became a fearsome fighter in numerous stick challenges.

[Phoenix44]

Necessary? Necessary for what?

I mean, you can just walk around with a baseball bat if you want.

People train in MA for a lot of reasons.

[jim777]

Necessary? Necessary for what?


This is, of course, the magic question. You can learn to do lots of things without taking formal lessons. Can you get to 'master' level without lessons, probably not. Maybe 1 in 10 million can, but I wouldn't bet on those odds, not even with my CasinoCash ;)

I played guitar for 9 full years, often 8 or more hours a day, before I ever took a lesson. It was a very humbling thing to see just how much better I could have been, (with even less effort!) with a little instruction. With constant instruction for those 9 years, well, I'd be a professional musician now, as I've continued to play for the 24 years that followed those 9. I did have fun, and was able to impress my friends with what I had learned on my own, but I could never have gone toe to toe with someone who had received formal training.

So, can you 'get by' without formal training? Sure. Can you hang with someone who actually has had formal training and takes that training seriously, most likely not, and by a long shot. Doesn't make you bad person, it's just the way of the world.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Joab,

I will stick with the basic premise that this person sets forth and that you indicated a few posts back that you agree with (at least in theory).

The basic premise is that anyone can figure out how to fight without any formal martial arts training. As others have mentioned, this is true to a degree and under some dubious conditions.

Some people are natural fighters. Some people are very, very good at figuring things out. Nothing that is performed in a fight is rocket science. Some techniques, such as the Gracie techniques mentioned earlier, are very difficult to just figure out, but the right kind of person could potentially do it. You know, those guys that solve the rubix cube in ten seconds?

So, are you a guy who solves the rubix cube in ten seconds? That is the question that anyone considering this premise needs to ask themselves. If not, then chances are that they are just like 99% of the rest of humanity and will need some help.

The biggest factor is that human beings do not throw tactically sound punches naturally. In fact, a human being has no natural weapons, such as claws, and no instinctual killing moves, such as knowing to crush the throat with your jaws like wolves and big cats do. Our hands were designed to manipulate objects, not to break boards. Our legs and feet were designed for locomotion, not kicking. We are not even particularly strong. In the animal world, a chimp half our size with skinny arms is stronger than most people. Pound for pound, compared to most animals, we are comparative weaklings.

Interestingly, even those animals are 'taught' to hunt by mom and dad.

Thus, it took a very long time of people developing techniques, other building upon them and developing new techniques to get where we are today. The level of technical expertise of an advanced practitioner is most definitely not something that can simply be figured out by just anyone. Even prodigies have teachers.

Daniel

[Josh Oakley]

I look at it this way: why would I spend a lot of time trying to figure out the same things that others have not only figured out but stress tested as well. Why should I reinvent the wheel, as it were?

[ap Oweyn]

People learn from experience. Whether that experience is a structured program in a proper martial arts school or the cumulative experience of real-life dustups. (And God help the guy who faces off with someone who has both.) The most skilled people are apt to be the ones who have benefited from some structured training but also have the background (experience) and temperament (natural inclination) for fighting.

I'm going to guess your ex-friend had none of the above. In my experience, the guys who usually talk about self-learning are the ones looking to validate a basic unwillingness to train hard and test themselves against other people. The "find your own path" stuff just provides a nice philosophical-sounding legitimation for not doing something you simply don't have the chops for.


Stuart

[Grenadier]

Some people with amazing talent may be able to "figure it out on their own." However, such people are exceptionally rare, and are typically not going to be people with no experience at all.

I got into an interesting discussion about this with a fellow Kobudo practitioner, and he pointed out that one of the senior instructors of Yamanni Chinen Ryu, Sensei Toshihiro Oshiro, had essentially figured out how to work the sai on his own, with no real formal instruction, other than Kishaba Sensei showing him a few basic moves.

I can't argue with that, that the saijutsu part of Yamanni Ryu is quite good, and that in this case it did work. However, the fact that Oshiro Sensei had many years of Karate and Kobudo training had a lot to do with this. That, plus his ability is phenomenal, and beyond the limits of most people's.

Your average newbie would not be able to do such a thing. Even your average well-trained martial artist will not be able to do such a thing.

Even if you are one of the phenoms of the world, formal training can greatly reduce the amount of time that it takes to learn and apply the techniques of the martial arts. It can also be a lot safer, since you'd be under the watchful eye of someone who knows how to train others and not get them injured due to improper mechanics, bad control, etc.

[Ken Morgan]

Sukerkin and I appear to be the only one’s hanging around here who study iaido, and I’m sure he would attest to, it is amazing how many people pick up a sword and suddenly within six months start their own schools or are suddenly experts. Hell I’ve been practicing iaido, jodo, niten, tanjo and various other schools of kenjitsu for ten years and while in class I’m a senior, I “feel” like a beginner. However I know enough to realize within 30 seconds of watching someone, if they honestly have a clue as to what they are doing.

No offense to other MA, but so often schools will add sword into their curriculum, or they were added in years ago. I watch some of these weaponless MA using a sword and it all looks so very wrong, they shorten the weapon up, they have terrible distance and timing and treat the blade like a baton, spinning it this way and that.

As someone here already said, why would you want to ignore the knowledge and experience earned by senior practitioners? My Sensei always uses the analogy of a bus getting you to a destination. Why would you want to switch busses? Why would you want to switch modes of transportation? If it was good enough to get you to where you, your sensei and countless others to where they needed to be, why change it? Why found your own school?

It’s the kids, the ignorant and the ego’s who become 10th Dan grand master soke’s at 20 years of age and become “experts” about all MA.

[chinto]

to be blunt, your friend is an idiot at best. If training in combat was not needed why did every military and group from the cave man that wanted to be effective in combat find some one who was and ask to learn from them???
why does every single military in the world have a basic training regimen to teach their people to be effective in a fight on the battlefield??

the answer is simple, people learned to fight better and trained others over century's. people who did not learn from the past experiences in combat and pass it on.. DIED. so the ones who did not learned that knowing how to fight better equaled survival did not win, and the people saw that and learned.

why else would boxers have coaches to compete in a sport for gods sake? Now if you need to learn to be able to put up a fight in a sport where generally you do not die if you loose, would you think you do not need it for a fight that you got a good chance you might die if you loose?

[Cirdan]

Without formal training you could end up looking like this:

http://www.goldendragondojo.com/files/DaiSword.jpg

[Sukerkin]

ROFLKILITA! Cheers for that, Cirdan :lol:.

We haven't quite had students looking like that roll up (tho' a number of us that are now nidan or sandan did start with swords not much better than that :o).

[Ken Morgan]

OMG...those are Klingon bat'leth's on the wall behind him....
Really, there isn't anymore to say about him, the sword or what he's doing....

[Cirdan]

:lfao: just noticed he has a "SENSEI" patch on his arm too

[chinto]

Without formal training you could end up looking like this:

http://www.goldendragondojo.com/files/DaiSword.jpg


now that is so bad it is funny! batliths on the wall and a 440c sword!! :lfao::yoda: a real martial artist desires not these things!! :flame::flame:

[Omar B]

Without formal training you could end up looking like this:
http://www.goldendragondojo.com/files/DaiSword.jpg

This guy is officially my new god! I'm going out to get my ear pierced and start growing a '70's porno mustache.

[Cirdan]

This guy is officially my new god! I'm going out to get my ear pierced and start growing a '70's porno mustache.

Don`t forget the knuckle tattoo.

[Bruno@MT]

I look at it this way: why would I spend a lot of time trying to figure out the same things that others have not only figured out but stress tested as well. Why should I reinvent the wheel, as it were?

On top of that: many traditional systems had their techniques tested in liefe and death battles. Everything that survived for centuries probably has solid foundations.

[Bruno@MT]

Without formal training you could end up looking like this:

http://www.goldendragondojo.com/files/DaiSword.jpg

This weapon makes it so you can disembowel yourself with the end of the tang at the very same time as beheading someone, out of shame for using such a ridiculous weapon.

That is, if you don't poke out your eye with that dragon wing at the tsuba.
Priceless.

I used to frequent a thread on another forum, named 'krappy karate katana kamae' which showed martial artists posing with swords, who obviously never learned to actually use it propery.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Without formal training you could end up looking like this:

http://www.goldendragondojo.com/files/DaiSword.jpg
So much wrong with this picture. So, so much.

He is holding the crappy wallhangar sword all wrong.
The fact that he is holding a crappy wallhangar sword.
The sensei patch coupled with the poom belt.
The fact that he apparently consented to be photographed with all of the above.
The fact that he should not have had side shot taken of him.

Yes, that sword should be on the wall with the crayon bat'leths.

Daniel

[dancingalone]

So much wrong with this picture. So, so much.

He is holding the crappy wallhangar sword all wrong.
The fact that he is holding a crappy wallhangar sword.
The sensei patch coupled with the poom belt.
The fact that he apparently consented to be photographed with all of the above.
The fact that he should not have had side shot taken of him.

Yes, that sword should be on the wall with the crayon bat'leths.

Daniel

Daniel, don't insult the guy. He's the star of the Foot Fist Way II! :)

[ap Oweyn]

On top of that: many traditional systems had their techniques tested in liefe and death battles. Everything that survived for centuries probably has solid foundations.
I'm not opposed to traditional systems. Much of my own background has been in "traditional" styles. But that line of reasoning seems flawed to me for two reasons:

First, they haven't survived for centuries. Or rather, they haven't survived battlefield conditions for centuries. They haven't been used in battlefield conditions for a very, very long time. So they've actually only survived the public consciousness. And a thing can survive there for lots of reasons aside from effectiveness. Impressive aesthetics, good PR, etc.

Besides, we'd have to accept that things in a style haven't chained one iota since they were used on the battlefield. No changing of standards, shifting of emphasis, or alterations in curriculum in hundreds of years. We'd have to accept that the material has remained precisely the same even though the "classroom" (ie, the battlefield) has changed dramatically. It's the classroom that makes the difference.

Finally, battlefield martial arts wouldn't have been judged on their ability to bring home one soldier alive. Today, we're very saliently made aware of the loss of every single poor soul in the war. But in the age we're referring to when we say "battlefield martial arts," victory would have been about how many of your men and how many of the opponents' men make it to their objective. Now, if a thousand men are taught the same basic sword technique, and seven hundred of them survive that battle, is the sword technique a good or bad bet for personal protection?

I don't know. But it's being taught to an army isn't a very good gauge of its use to an individual. Ease of transmission to large groups doesn't necessarily indicate the "best" technique.

I mean this with no disrespect to anyone who serves or served in the military. But melee combat hasn't been on the military forefront for centuries. And when it was, group tactics were the name of the game. That doesn't necessarily translate to individual martial artists.


Stuart

[Ken Morgan]

What we consider iaido today had its roots 400 years ago, just as peace was finally coming to Japan, it is not a battlefield art.

The sword was a weapon of last resort on a Japanese battlefield. Statistically it was something like 5% of all deaths on a medieval Japanese battlefield where caused by swords. The vast majority were caused by rocks, arrows and musket balls, all long distance weapons. Kill the enemy before they close, it's a f&*@ of a lot safer!!

What you learn in a sword kata is only the basics, the light bulb goes off in your head after about ten years, when you realize what the kata really means.