students declining rank

[jarrod]

i was wondering if anyone else runs into this. i teach gi & no-gi grappling under the shingitai jujitsu umbrella. some of my students mostly attend one class or the other, but i promote the no-gi guys the same even though they don't wear actual belts.

a few of them have declined promotions that i gave them. not like "no sensei, i'm not worthy!" or anything like that. in most cases, they simply tell me that money is tight (our promotion fees are very low but we do have them) &/or they're just not concerned with rank advancement.

the recent MT Magazine article about abolishing belts got me thinking about this topic. i wonder if we're seeing a natural evolution of students being more concerned with performance rather than with external rank. i think many folks at this point have seen enough black belts of one sort or another get smashed by unranked individuals that it has made an impression on them.

as an aside, tonight one of my students who declined his green belt took my back & stayed there for about a full minute, then nearly locked my arm with a juji gatame. he also tapped my brown belt, who is no joke. i was so proud!

jf

[Cirdan]

I think declining rank from your instructor is disrespectful. I mean, do people really think they know better?

[myusername]

I think declining rank from your instructor is disrespectful. I mean, do people really think they know better?

Reading the original post I would have to disagree with you in this specific case. Firstly, if a student is declining because money is tight and they can not afford the promotion fees then there is no disrespect intended there, the student is just being honest and it is a sign of respect that despite their financial situation they are still budgeting to attend regular training.

Secondly, I can understand the refusal if they are attending a class that does not require a student to have attained a particular grade in order to learn the next technique. If there is a flattened syllabus and grading is an optional extra then there is no disrespect in not wishing to partake in grading.

Also, on a seperate issue there is a student in my TKD class that has remained at Blue Belt for nearly two years despite encouragement from our instructor for her to go for gradings. She has very low self esteem and confidence, her declining the next grade is not due to any disrespect towards her instructor but more of an irrational fear that she is going to embarrass herself. She has faith in her instructor but no faith in herself.

There may be many personal reasons why someone does not grade and I think it would be unfair to be overly judgemental.

I personally love to grade! It is very satisfying for me to put on the next colour!

[jarrod]

i'm of two minds about it. yeah, it would be great if they were as proud to receive rank from me as i am to receive it from my coach. on the other hand, i'm glad to see them focused solely on development without fixating on my approval.

another factor i just thought of is that we originated as a freestyle submission grappling club before i received my coaching credentials from the shingitai jujitsu association. some of that lack of formality certainly stayed with us as we became a jujitsu school.

jf

[Thems Fighting Words]

After reading a different thread, I'd say that declining a rank in competitive arts such as BJJ can be viewed badly by other competitors. If your students want to remain and compete at a lower rank than their skills entail other competitors may view it as some kind of unfair loading. Look at it this way, if an instructor level wu shu (or other acrobatic demo style) practitioner decided to compete at much lower grade level contests, would you consider it unfair on their opposition who are actually at the skill level they were competing in? If it's financial however, then there really isn't much anyone can do.

[myusername]

After reading a different thread, I'd say that declining a rank in competitive arts such as BJJ can be viewed badly by other competitors. If your students want to remain and compete at a lower rank than their skills entail other competitors may view it as some kind of unfair loading. Look at it this way, if an instructor level wu shu (or other acrobatic demo style) practitioner decided to compete at much lower grade level contests, would you consider it unfair on their opposition who are actually at the skill level they were competing in? If it's financial however, then there really isn't much anyone can do.

Good point, I hadn't thought about it from the competition angle. If a students motivation to refuse to grade is to attempt to get an unfair advantage in tournaments then that is unethical and should be discouraged.

In Jarrod's case it seems that he runs an informal school where gradings are optional. When I looked into kickboxing a while back I visited a school such as this where gradings were offered but hardly anyone took them up. You were measured by your performance in the ring not by the belt around your waist.

[jarrod]

After reading a different thread, I'd say that declining a rank in competitive arts such as BJJ can be viewed badly by other competitors. If your students want to remain and compete at a lower rank than their skills entail other competitors may view it as some kind of unfair loading. Look at it this way, if an instructor level wu shu (or other acrobatic demo style) practitioner decided to compete at much lower grade level contests, would you consider it unfair on their opposition who are actually at the skill level they were competing in? If it's financial however, then there really isn't much anyone can do.

that's a good point & i have the same opinions about sandbagging. to clear the air though, one decliner is non-competitive, the other only competes in MMA. but i agree, sandbagging is BS.

jf

[searcher]

a few of them have declined promotions that i gave them. not like "no sensei, i'm not worthy!" or anything like that. in most cases, they simply tell me that money is tight (our promotion fees are very low but we do have them) &/or they're just not concerned with rank advancement.


jf

It really does depend on what their underlying reasons are for declining the rank. If it is money, then so be it. If it is a lack of concern for attaining actual rank, then so be it. Everyone has their own reasons for training and we should not try to change them.



I think declining rank from your instructor is disrespectful. I mean, do people really think they know better?

It is not desrespectful, it is just how some want to live.

And on the second part of your post, I hope you are being sarcastic? I have had parents and adults that think they know what is best for my class and some have even tried to tell me how to run it. I ask them why they brought their kids or themselves to my school if they know better. They have no reply.

[Big Don]

The thought that comes to my mind:
Don't be humble, you aren't that great.
You could tell them that...

[arnisador]

I've seen BJJ guys who were "sandbagging" at a lower belt rank to rack up more wins at that division.

[astrobiologist]

Rank is really only important for the instructor and student. If the student wishes to remain at whatever rank they are, then so be it. It's really not that important that they advance. I understand the competitive aspect you are all talking about, so in that case it may seem unfair for a student to remain at a lower rank, but if it is about personal finances or a student's wish to be the best at a certain level that they can be then I say let them stay where they are. We can offer advancement, they don't have to accept it.

[rocksham]

I think declining rank from your instructor is disrespectful. I mean, do people really think they know better?


rank is an artificial measure and not accurate

[still learning]

Hello, The purpose of ranking is just a measure of skills learn. Rank is for the teacher and student to see progress.

A student declining rank...his choice....the teacher can still post it on his records for measurement purpose. and the student does not need to wear a rank.

Today a ranking in martial arts has lost some respect because so much is just giving away. ....just for showing up and money paid!

For teachers that do promote ranking? in there system...declining can be consider disrespectful too! to the teacher and system itself.

Declining is a self-fish decisions on the student...should look at it as an honor to those who believe in his achievments

Aloha

[jks9199]

rank is an artificial measure and not accurate
Not accurate for what purpose?

If the teacher's standards are reasonably consistent, it's a valid assessment within that school. In some associations, the rules and requirements are consistent enough that you can reliably state that a fuchsia belt in one school is similarly skilled to one in another school within that association.

In some styles, a given belt means that you reliably defeat people of lower ranks, and give equal ranks some challenge and hold your own.

Yes, rank is artificial. But you're going out on a pretty deep limb by saying it's inaccurate without saying what it's inaccurate for.

[Josh Oakley]

Personally I think it's disrespectful, generally to refuse rank. It's one thing to say you can't afford it, But another thing to refuse rank. I'll be honest, I've never cared even one iota about rank. But when my instructor says to go test and I do my damnedest to represent him well. When we test, we don't test under our instructor, but instead we test under our instructor's instructor. The respectful thing for me to do is give a good showing for him, whether I care about the belt itself or not.

[Korppi76]

I have declined ranks for few times. They all have been things where I have trained with some arts senior teacher and for some reason (timetable, moving etc) I have had to stop training with him and he has told me that I can have some rank if I like. (usually some green or blue belt.)

My friend was offered 2.Dan if he would start another art.

And for my "sidearts" which I don't focus fully I usually dont grade ranks. (expect one or two you get from "basic course")

All these have been martial arts which I haven't compete.

I also have seen few people who wont grade unless they think they can do test "perfectly".

[Cirdan]

And on the second part of your post, I hope you are being sarcastic? I have had parents and adults that think they know what is best for my class and some have even tried to tell me how to run it. I ask them why they brought their kids or themselves to my school if they know better. They have no reply.

A bit sarcastic perhaps. I see second guessing your Sensei`s evaluation of skill just as disrespectful as questioning the training methods.

[Steve]

The only real problem I see is for competition purposes.

Regarding MMA, at our school, you have to be at least a blue belt in BJJ to fight MMA... so at least that one rank is important to the fighters.

[dnovice]

sheesh.... If you have to pay to advance in rank I wouldn't rank too. I feel it takes away from the value of the rank; it cheapens it.

[Grenadier]

Why are they declining the promotion? If they're doing it for a financial reason, then work something out with them. Maybe tack on a few extra bucks each month, so they can gradually pay for it, or offer them an exam in return for some dojo work, etc.

If your fees are reasonable, then the "money is tight" excuse can be countered if they're willing to work it out.

Are they declining rank for "honor" purposes? If so, then maybe it's time to remind them that as they gain more experience and seniority, that the others are going to look up to them as sempai, and that they should take the advancement for the good of the group as a whole. The way I see it, if someone has demonstrated that they can perform all of the techniques and requirements for a particular rank, and if they've fulfilled the required number of hours, then they should test, so that they can start learning new material. There's nothing to be gained from holding them back, regardless of whether they requested it or not.

Are they declining for competition purposes? If so, then that's simply sandbagging. I saw some of this at various tournaments throughout my lifetime, where you had novices doing kata from the Shitei or Tokui lists, instead of doing what they were supposed to do. Thankfully, the USA-NKF has a new rule forbidding such practices now, but to me, that's sandbagging.

If someone's technique is that good, and if they can perform such good techniques when doing Shitei or Tokui kata, then they should have been promoted to at least intermediate (brown belt) before such an event.

[Thems Fighting Words]

If students belong to a larger organization and train with more than one teacher, the belt rank would allow other teachers to know at what level the student was. So I think declining rank could get confusing. Especially if there are classes that are specifically tailored to certain ranks (ie beginners, intermediates, seniors etc).

[Twin Fist]

if one of my students declined a promotion from me?

buh bye

[Ironcrane]

Perhaps present the belts as a mark of acomplishment rather then rank? Don't know if that would make any difference.

[jarrod]

i usually don't bother to repeat myself on a single thread, but i want to state one more time that it is not an issue of sandbagging; of the two students one doesn't compete & the other only competes in mma. i just want to make it clear that i would not tolerate sandbagging at my school, as previously mentioned.

jf

[Joab]

When I tested for yellow belt in Krav Maga I didn't think I was ready but passed anyway. The teacher promoted everyone in the class even if the technique was only 70% accurate. I rarely wore the belt in class, and one student thought I should because I worked hard for it. I worked a lot harder in Wing Chun, and I never even tested.

But all of that seems irrevalent, since the motivation for your students seems to be financial. If they can't afford it they can't afford it. Money is tight right now.

[Twin Fist]

cant afford a belt test? how much do they cost?

[jarrod]

i think the green belt is $20, plus a $35 annual membership fee. that is a lot for some folks right now.

jf

[harlan]

Here is the conundrum: MAists understand the 'value' of rank is relative...but 'outsiders' have no other measure of competance. Personally, I don't train in a situation that addresses rank. I just train. Last year, I had the offer to 'rank', and basically let it pass. I didn't see any sense in it. Fast forward 6 months, and the idea has been broached that I might want to consider teaching on a basic level. More of a case of finding folks to train with, and sharing basics. But still, putting a toe into new waters and testing out the idea of 'teaching'.

The first question I get from outsiders is: 'are you a professional', 'are you certified', 'well...then...what rank are you?'

[dancingalone]

I suppose it depends on the situation. I agree if you are a full student of someone, you should take whatever rank they offer and be grateful for it, since they are honoring you to begin with.

What about part time student status though? I work out frequently with a group of open-minded martial artists from a variety of styles and systems. One of my friends is very experienced in an eclectic jujutsu style, and I probably learn more from him that the other way around. He's offered to rank me in his system. Should I accept, given that I already train in a primary style with a teacher I have been committed to for 18 years? I already hold a sandan and a nidan in two striking systems, and I've never been much of a belt-chaser.

[harlan]

And then again...there is 'the imposter syndrome'. I recall being in college, and trying to explain to my (female) professor the nebulous reasons why I couldn't push forward on my paper. 'I feel like...a fraud.'

She sat me right down and we discussed something I'd never heard about, and that academic women had plenty of...hidden insecurities. Perhaps the refusal to rank disguises this in some?

[Xue Sheng]

OK, it's been a LONG time since I trained a style that had belt ranks but.... They CHARGE for ranks now!!!!! The monthly fee isn't enough...what the hell is that about. Congratulations you have worked hard, trained hard, made your sensei proud and passed the test now pay me $20 bucks so I can give you the rank??? No money...no rank...... And some are upset because a student refused a rank....give me a freakin break

Is it just me or is this more about money than martial arts

I am a TCMA guy, no ranks, and damn happy about it

[Joab]

What is TCMA?

[Xue Sheng]

What is TCMA?

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts

but the non TCMA CMA I trained (Sanda) did not have belt ranks either

[harlan]

Question for Xue Sheng: there is no ranking whatsoever in your system? How is one 'recognized' then, in order to be publicly acknowedged and allowed to teach?


OK, it's been a LONG time since I trained a style that had belt ranks but.... They CHARGE for ranks now!!!!! The monthly fee isn't enough...what the hell is that about. Congratulations you have worked hard, trained hard, made your sensei proud and passed the test now pay me $20 bucks so I can give you the rank??? No money...no rank...... And some are upset because a student refused a rank....give me a freakin break

Is it just me or is this more about money than martial arts

I am a TCMA guy, no ranks, and damn happy about it

[Joab]

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts

but the non TCMA CMA I trained (Sanda) did not have belt ranks either

Is that the na,e of the system, TCMA? Sounds kind of generic. At any rate, thanks for your response.

[Xue Sheng]

Question for Xue Sheng: there is no ranking whatsoever in your system? How is one 'recognized' then, in order to be publicly acknowedged and allowed to teach?

My Yang Sifu's Sifu (Tung Ying Chieh) gave him permission and he could not care less who recognizes him at all other than his Sifu and his Sifu’s family and the others that trained with him. Lineage matters in TCMA more than organizations and belts (Chen Changxing > Yang Luchan > Yang Jainhou > Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Chieh > My Sifu > Me) and after that it is how much of a student your Sifu feels you are and how hard you train.

I have also trained with Chen Zhenglei and he has NO rank form the Chen family but is considered a top Taiji Sifu by the family and those that train taiji. He was give rank by the duan system but then that is from the Chinese government not anyone that actually has much to do with martial arts. The man that was my Wing Chun Sifu is a student of Ip Ching and recognized as a student of Ip Ching and allowed to teach per Ip Ching and that is all he cares about and he has no belt rank.


Is that the na,e of the system, TCMA? Sounds kind of generic. At any rate, thanks for your response.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the "na,e" thing... if it helps...Traditional Martial Arts that have thier origin in China

Here is a partial list (http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-chinese-martial-arts)

I trained Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Wing Chun, and Sanda. No belt ranks no pay me for a test either

I use to, many years ago train Jujutsu and TKD...both have ranks and I got some and there was no charge for a rank or a test for a rank but that was a long long time ago

[Live True]

I actually tried to decline a recent rank, because I did not feel deserving, and there was NO disrespect intended or taken from my sensei.

We are a very small group, and been going through some serious growing pains as well as personal issues that have limited regular practice. For example, during this time, we lost our training venue and had to find a new place to train. That said, simply having everyone show up and test at our new venue was an accomplishment. Our sensei, looking at the circumstances and our testing, believed we each had learned enough to advance one step (not a full rank).

I discussed this privately with one of the upper ranked students, who was also one of the judges at the test and one of our regular teachers. I told her that I did not think my performance was worthy of any advancement, because I had maintained skills, but not advanced. She disagreed and pointed out several new things I had learned and improvements on my technique. She did, however, agree that my technique would not normally be worthy of advancement. But, she also advised me that perhaps my sensei saw my dedication (I trained into 8th month of pregnancy, although much modified), spirit, and determination along with my advancement in knowledge and skill earned me a rank that I would "grow into" quickly enough.

So, I let my sensei know that while I did not feel deserving of the rank, I would do my best to honor it and be worthy of it and advancement at our next testing. I still do not think I was worthy of the rank awarded, at the time I was given the rank, but it has made me work harder to feel worthy of it.

So, I would offer that declining rank is not always a matter of disrepect or "I know better". For me, rank is not to impress anyone else, it's an internal measure of how far I've come and the honour given to me by my instructor and peers. I believe that declining rank should be looked at on a case by case basis. Sometimes, circumstances (be they financial or otherwise) may call for it. I also think this is something to be discussed privately between student and teacher.

[DeLamar.J]

I dodged my black belt for a long time because having a "black belt" these days is so meaningless. I just didnt want to be looked at like all the other pseudo black belts out there.