Ok,

I hope I don't get flamed by this but here it goes ....

why a sperate category of "women's self defense?" And no category on "self defense" in general or "men's self defense?"

I'm not trying to be an ass .. though I'm sure some will take it that way, it's a serious question.

Are self defense techniques for a woman so different than for a man (who isn't excessively trained in some martial art?)

Certainly women have some issues that are different from issues that the typical guy faces -- usually having to do with size and strength differentials, and occassionaly iwth clothing (how do I run in a skin tight dress?)

But honestly .. who hasn't met a 130 lb 5'4" man in their life? I certainly have.

I also don't mean this question to be limited to the confines of this board. Most community ed programs have "self defense for women" classes.

Are men who are not martial artists simply forgotten about or assumed to not need self defense techniques? And if so, why is that?

Again, this is asked in all seriousness . . . I am honestly curious as to why this is the case.

We have discussed a general self-defense/tactics&strategies forum (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6026) before, due to members' requests. (See also posts in that forum prefaced S&T.) If memory serves there was interest in having a women's self-defense forum and we created it based on that interest. It's always a judgment call. Sometimes fora really take off, other times they're barely used and are folded back in to other fora. We felt that there would be sufficient interest in this one, and that seems to have been the case.

The short answer is that we try to give our members what they want--for example, we recently created a Firearms forum due to members' obvious interest in this subject.

I might add that I think there are many places for men to discuss self-defense on this board--the General forum if no other place is appropriate. We are open to suggestions however!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Gah -- ok .. let me state again - i'm asking in the broader context than the board.

I OFTEN see stuff like "women's self defense clinics" and community ed programs of "self defense for women," etc.

It seems that general self-defense for men is assumed unnecessary.

Why is that?

Are the self-defense concerns of women really that different from men's?

If not, then why the focus on gender?

If so, then where is the concern for men's self defense?

Sorry, I wanted to give an admin.'s answer w.r.t this board. I figured I'd come back later and give a personal answer in the general case.

As a member, my thought is that women's self-defense is valuable as women often have particular concerns--purse-snatchings, sexual assaults--that may be of less concern to men. (Of course, men are also sexually assaulted.) Anatomical differences in the defender aren't the principal issue to my mind, though the strength issue plays a role. There's also the assumption that women play-fight/school-fight less than men growing up and hence may not have the same basic experience. Again, this will vary from person to person but may be a reasonable generalization.

One could easily tailor a program for men and sell it. I'd argue that you see ads for men's self-defense all the time--in martial arts magazines ("Taught to the Navy SEALs! Learn in just three hours! Defeat any attacker!"). Many Krav Maga programs seem to me to be marketed as men's self-defense--others, as women's (esp. after Jennifer Lopez's "Enough" movie). I think there are plenty of men's self-defense programs available, but not in the same places (such as Y[M|W]CAs).

Ok, here goes-

Yes, self-defense can be a very different experience for a woman, for many reasons.

First: body mass difference. Most women are smaller than men. Fact. A woman who weighs 130 lbs will have higher percentage of fat and less muscle mass than a man who weighs 130 lbs. Fact. How often does a 130 lb man attack a woman of equal size? Statistically, the odds are a woman of average size will be attacked (if at all) by a larger male, for whatever motive. Therefore, training for this scenario is tailored to fit this reality.

Second: social conditioning. From birth, a female will be taught to be feminine. This is a very broad generalization, but true enough that I stand by it. This means less fighting, and less experience from an early age with aggressive behavior. Less experience at handling this scenario. For most women, it takes a while in the dojo to simply get accustomed to a fist coming withing a few inches of the face, much less making an effective counter. For the few who have experience with violence (incest, rape, physical abuse, or criminal history) there are other, more complicated issues.

Third: sex. The experince of being within the "F" range with men who the female warrior has no intention of seducing (I hope) is strange and takes getting used to. It also brings up sexual tension, power struggles with men who are taught not to hit women, and physical considerations such as avoiding the breast or testicles in a technique while learning something that may save a life someday.

This forum is intended to address these considerations. I have been very pleased with the respect shown to all martial artists of substance here, regardless of gender.

To Jill and arnisador's responses I would also add that there is probably a big psychological difference for a woman being attacked by a man compared to a man being attacked by a man. I think very few men fear being attacked by women (no matter that it does happen).

To maybe put this in perspective, Kope, do you ever see yourself being sexually assaulted in a dark alley by a group of women? If you were, would you fight back? :D

I've heard of arts being created for women because of the anatomical differences between men and women--women's lower center of gravity, etc.--but have never seen a truly compelling example. Wing Chun, for example, seems to have in mind a larger attacker at times but doesn't seem especially structured for women. I am not an expert in Wing Chun of course! Perhaps someone will disagree.

well in genneral, I tihnk there are fewer women in MA, as a result people try to make an extra step to show that women are deffinatly welcome where ever it is that you see a womens forum or whatever..

also in genneral, my experience shows that the majority of women tend to feal uncomfortable dealing with physical combat, or even physical competition with men, given no previous experience. I tihnk that's why you see women's SD classes, to try to make women feal more comfortable by saying the clas is for them.

Sweeper, I think you're right.

Most women are brought up to think of themselves as weak and that "fighting" is "unladylike." I have always stressed (to my female students) that they are NOT weak (and can become much stronger) and that fighting isn't "unladylike"...anymore than it's "manly" or "un-manly." Self-defense has nothing to do with sex.

I think sweeper is right too. Also, although the victimization rates are similar between men and women, the actual crimes can vary greatly. For instance, men are twice as likely to be robbery victims where women are three times more likely to be sexual assault victims. So splitting the classes up to handle the different situations the students will find themselves in makes sense to me.

I think men's self defense concerns are taken care of with the martial arts classes in general; classes that feature far more men than women. While it is true that some arts don't work self defense issues well, the majority offer a lot.

WhiteBirch

Originally posted by yilisifu
Self-defense has nothing to do with sex.

:rofl: *snicker*

Sorry- taken out of context that is a very funny sentence. :D

Back to your regularly scheduled topic....

Good responses- I also agree with Sweeper, and womens' self-defense classes are a good idea for this reason. Are they effective in teaching something that will actually work? Well, my opinion is that a woman who attends will hopefully pick up ways to avoid dangerous places and to be aware of their surroundings. If they do, the classes will prevent many attacks regardless of the quality of their material.

:soapbox:

And some may prompt a few new members in MA dojos.

Originally posted by Kope
Gah -- ok .. let me state again - i'm asking in the broader context than the board.

I OFTEN see stuff like "women's self defense clinics" and community ed programs of "self defense for women," etc.

It seems that general self-defense for men is assumed unnecessary.

Why is that?

Are the self-defense concerns of women really that different from men's?

If not, then why the focus on gender?

If so, then where is the concern for men's self defense?
You asked a pretty good question,but a very touchy one. I do believe that there are several differences between general martial arts and women's self defense training.For example most women's self defense training I have seen has been a complete joke.I don't mean to offend anyone,but I just saw one on the news the other day. The woman being attacked had dropped her purse and raised her hands up in a I don't want any trouble manner.She already gave up the element of surprise,and stated to the attacker that she did want to fight. One must use all available environmental weapons as possible i.e her purse. They also showed a woman executing a knee lift to her attackers groin, and then he ran away. Give me a break!!! I've hit guys that are over 6 feet tall over 200lbs with a full on step through snap kick, and then a knee lift, and they were still standing,well crouching really,hehehe!!! But they certainly didn't run away.In my opinion (and that's all it is) women have to use precision over power.Speed over braun.Hit your attacker in his vital areas, go for the eyes,the throat,the groin or the knee caps. Use the weapons you have, like your finger nails, they are perfect weapons. I also don't believe in going toe to toe with a guy twice your size and 5 times your strength. Hit and run, strike hard and strike fast,and get out of there. Guys tend to use their brute strength to win fights not much finesse. I don't mean to offend any of the ladies,I totally encourage all women to learn martial arts.I just don't believe a 6 week class is ever going to be enough.I work with the L.A.P.D and the crime stats are insane, 1.3 women are raped every 60 seconds. I think every woman, every girl should learn martial arts. Give them a fighting chance at least.

With the utmost sincerity,
KenpoDragon:asian: