Neck Cranks at Grapplers Quest???

[Pyrock]

My 7 year old son was at Grapplers Quest over the weekend and had a bad experience. In the rules, it clearly stated that neck or cervical cranks were not allowed in the childrens divisions for Gi and No Gi. When the No Gi competition started, I was a bit alarmed when the youngest and lightest (<49 lbs) were allowed to do guillotines. During my sons first No Gi match (50-59 lbs), his opponent placed him (all 53 lbs) in a standing guillotine and raised him off his feet. Now, my son's BJJ academy doesn't allow guillotines so they dont train for it or how to defend against it at that age so he was a bit caught off guard and wasn't able to tap. In addition, the ref didn't stop the move until he was nearly passed out. He only stopped it when the opposing coach yelled out.

The other issue was that he was in the "beginners" division where it clearly states <9 months of training. I am certain the almost all of the kids in his division had much more training time than 9 months. It was more like 2 years on average.

My question is, is a guillotine considered a neck/cervical crank? Also, are these issues typical of Grapplers Quest? It resembled more of an MMA event than the typical (albeit smaller) BJJ events that I've seen.

Based on this experience, I doubt that I will ever allow my son to comptete at Grapplers Quest again...at least not until he is MUCH older. It just wasn't safe. It was down right frightening...at least for a parent

On a side note, he DID return for the Gi event even though he originally didn't want to continue after that scary incident. He said that he didn't want to be a quiter. He only lost 0-2 by a weak take-down. I'm sure that if he was 100%, he would have easily won. I believe it was against the only other true beginner.

[Tez3]

I'm sorry to say this but you have just confirmed all my fears about children doing what your son has been doing.
I wouldn't class guillotines as neck cranks, a standing guillotine is actually easy enough to get out of and I'm surprised that if your son is doing BJJ it hasn't been covered even if it's not allowed at that age...rightly I think.
Were the children grappling again in headguards?
I'm sure someone will be able to post up videos showing the difference between neck cranks and guillotines, I'm not good at posting videos.
The practice of 'sandbagging' as we call it here is fairly common, thats when people enter as lower belts than they actually are. One of the problems with having so long between gradings in BJJ is you can easily have a white belt who's been training for 2 years or more.
I know nothing about Grapplers Quest though so can't coment on them.

[Pyrock]

No, they were'nt wearing head guards. My main issue was that the ref wasn't paying close attention. He was even slow to stop a match after a tap because he was distracted by the photographer who was right in the competitors face DURING THE MATCH. On one occasion, he failed to stop a match immediately after the bean bag was thrown in for the end of the match. Again, he wasn't paying attention.

As for the guillotine, after my son's match, I noticed that they started issuing warnings when someone did a guillotine. That's what made me assume it was a neck crank.

Thanks

[Tez3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuVqCxWxI0w&feature=related

The can opener, a neck crank.Cranking the neck involves moving the neck into a position that makes you submit same with cervical cranks such as the twister.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eebxB17Ozr0

Standing guillotine which is a choke not cranking the neck. It's what is known as a 'blood' choke as you don't restrict the airway but close off the blood supply to the brain causing the person to pass out, the neck isn't moved into any other position.
We have a way of putting the choke on moving the hands which makes defence almost impossible.

[Pyrock]

Thanks for all the good info. Makes sense now. So, is it safe to assume that a Darce is not a neck crank? I always thought it was a choke.

[LuckyKBoxer]

Grapplers Quest has a definite feel of MMA type intentions to it.
A Guillotine is a Choke, not a Crank, but with many chokes it can definitely crank on the neck....
Lots of beginners divisions in all grappling tournaments have sandbaggers in them... people that either are held back intentionally to win at that belt level, or who specifically lie about their experience to win on their own accord. a person might have 5 years of sambo training, but 2 months in BJJ and decide to use the BJJ experience to claim beginner status... cheap but it happens.

[Pyrock]

Lots of beginners divisions in all grappling tournaments have sandbaggers in them... people that either are held back intentionally to win at that belt level, or who specifically lie about their experience to win on their own accord. a person might have 5 years of sambo training, but 2 months in BJJ and decide to use the BJJ experience to claim beginner status... cheap but it happens.

This is unfortunate because in the end, everyone looses out especially the true beginners. I fail to see the accomplishment in winning a beginner division when you know full well that you have many more months or even years of experience than your opponent. If you are a blue belt, what's the purpose in entering an event as a white belt? Sorry, but I just dont see the logic. Great, so you beat a bunch of white belts and you're a blue belt. Hello....you're supposed to!

[Andy Moynihan]

Call me old fashioned, but I was given to understand, and had this confirmed through randori/newaza back when I did judo, that there was a REASON chokes and armlocks were not allowed in traditional judo competitions until brown belt. I see no reason to alter this line of thought.

Granted Judo isn't BJJ isn't Grapplers Quest but this incident described above was flatly intolerable. End of story.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Call me old fashioned, but I was given to understand, and had this confirmed through randori/newaza back when I did judo, that there was a REASON chokes and armlocks were not allowed in traditional judo competitions until brown belt. I see no reason to alter this line of thought.

Granted Judo isn't BJJ isn't Grapplers Quest but this incident described above was flatly intolerable. End of story.

Not old fashioned but good ole common sense. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Pyrock]

not old fashioned but good ole common sense. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif


amen!

[Tez3]

Sandbagging is for the 'glory' of the instructor usually so they can say 'look how many trophies my students win'. it, frankly, as pointed out does nothing for the students who 'won' them.
I wouldn't have allowed chokes or cranks in a childrens competition and perhaps the instructors should have looked at the rules more closely before entering the children. Being caught in a choke can be distressing if you're not used to it, being caught in a choke and having the ref not on the ball is appalling. the rules for childrens competitons usually state that the holds and things like armbars are to be put on slowly not jerked on at speed and are stopped as soon as they are in position, it's merely to show they can do the hold not to cause injury or even a submission.
Pyrock I think you are going to have to read through all the rules in a competition before allowing your son to enter, I think his instructors bear some of the blame here by not either knowing or realsing chokes were going to be allowed. It would be worth them teaching them chokes and the escapes from though for SD reasons even if they don't allow them to be used yet.

[punisher73]

Grapplers Quest has a definite feel of MMA type intentions to it.
A Guillotine is a Choke, not a Crank, but with many chokes it can definitely crank on the neck....

To have kids performing chokes like that just seems irresponsible. How many times have you had somebody put on a guillotine and it is directly on your trachea because it was misapplied when they were learning it?

Too much focus on winning at all costs and not focusing on the good values that can be taught.

[Tez3]

As I know nothing about Grapplers quest I did the usual thing lol, Googled it. I take it this is it?
http://www.grapplersquest.com/zone/news.cfm?news_story_id=5DC1967A-316F-4894-A0E8A5EA0FF712CE

with the rules. It says nothing about no guillotines even for the children.
It sounds like a huge money making venture, not to say thats bad but it's not what I'd put young children into. I would start children off in small inter-club competitions if I were going to let them compete, ours don't until they are about 14 or so.

[Pyrock]

Thanks for all the input. My son normally attends the local events held by his academy and those of neighboring/sister academies. In these events, the ref stops the submission holds once the position is attained AND BEFORE pressure is applied. Moreover, there are no guillotine or neck cranks allowed. By looking at the written rules at Grapplers Quest, they looked very similar (IBJJF) to the rules that the local events have so I thought it was ok. I agree...my son will not be attending any larger events until he is well into his teens. We will stick to the local events even though those events usually has bias judges but at least they are safe since they are usually instructors.

[jks9199]

I have major issues with the ref -- and with parents doing nothing about it. You've got a distracted, unobservant, and at least borderline negligent ref. We're not talking about arguing a call or decision; that's wrong and inappropriate. We're talking about telling the ref to do his job -- or getting someone else to do so by getting the tournament director involved. Any sort of grappling or sparring is too dangerous for the ref to have his attention wandering.

[Steve]

My question is, is a guillotine considered a neck/cervical crank? Also, are these issues typical of Grapplers Quest? It resembled more of an MMA event than the typical (albeit smaller) BJJ events that I've seen.
Straight chokes are legal in many no-gi competitions, so a guillotine is okay as long as the competitor doesn't being twisting or bending the spine.

That said, at a competition I reffed a few weeks back locally, I was told by the organizer to not hesititate to tap on behalf of kids. So, in the kids division, if I was at all uncomfortable with the situation, I would end the match... particularly in the beginners and novice divisions. This would include guillotines. If I'd been reffing your son's match, I would probably have stopped the match as soon as it was clear to me that he didn't know how to properly defend the submission. If it was a neck crank, your son would have been the winner. Otherwise, it would've been a submission to guillotine, stopped by me (the ref).

The kids advanced divisions got a little more leeway, as I could be reasonably sure they'd trained for a while.

[Tez3]

I have major issues with the ref -- and with parents doing nothing about it. You've got a distracted, unobservant, and at least borderline negligent ref. We're not talking about arguing a call or decision; that's wrong and inappropriate. We're talking about telling the ref to do his job -- or getting someone else to do so by getting the tournament director involved. Any sort of grappling or sparring is too dangerous for the ref to have his attention wandering.

I would have thought that Pyrocks son's coach would have put a complaint in tbh. I'm surprised at the coach anyway allowing his students to compete in a comp where they were at a disadvantage with the rules even if the ref had been on the ball.

[Steve]

Just to add, for adults it opens up a lot more. I know several head/arm chokes that will are more of a crank. In competition, if an arm is in, the ref would never call it a crank whether it is one or not.

[cooker1]

I don't think it is a great idea to have the kids doing chokes in competition. From a sports injury standpoint if something goes wrong there is not alot of room for error.

[Pyrock]

I don't think it is a great idea to have the kids doing chokes in competition. From a sports injury standpoint if something goes wrong there is not alot of room for error.

I agree. In my son's TKD Sports Jiu Jitsu tournaments, they are not allowed to choke unless they are Tae Kwon Do black belts (ie. more mature) so my son had to resort to using arm bars and Americana's.

TKD Sports Jiu Jitsu Vids (not BJJ ranks and rules)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6rqY5dv-yM&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ddNGsSbXk&feature=channel_page

[TheArtofDave]

1. NO SLAMMING ALLOWED. *NOTE Takedowns are not considered slamming, unless intent to injure is determined by the referee. This is to avoid slamming to escape the guard and various submissions from the guard and to prevent any major injury.
2. you must deliver your opponent safely to the mat, meaning, if you take your opponent down, you must come down with your opponent. This prevents “pro wrestling” type dangerous slams. Anyone violating this rule will be immediately disqualified.
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a. Stalling– The referee will issue warnings for the following:
b. Backing out of the guard without engaging, butt scooting, fleeing the ring to avoid takedown
c. No Clothing Grabbing in No-Gi Submission Grappling Divisions Note: No points or positional changes will be allowed if illegally grabbed
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***Penalty System of Negative Scoring Against Rules Above:
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NOTE: Grapplers Quest reserves the right to suspend them from one year to indefinitely from competition for a blatant attempt at injuring an opponent or acting in a disrespectful manner after a DQ.
a. NO COMPRESSION LOCKS ALLOWED including Bicep, Calf Crunchers or Compression Knee Locks) in any divisions, EXCEPT Men’s/ Women’s Advanced, Professional and Brown & Black Belt Divisions.
b. LEG LOCK INFRACTIONS (see # 10 below in No-Gi rules) causing injury or submission
c. NO NECK CRANKS, AND NO CERVICAL LOCKS in all divisions except Men’s & Women’s Advanced as well as Professional Divisions.
d. INTENTIONALLY THROWING A COMPETITOR ON HIS HEAD OR NECK OR SLAMMING OUT OF ANY SUBMISSION
e. MISSING YOUR MATCH after your name has been called over the loud speaker Three Times – No Refunds for Missed Divisions
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g. FLEEING THE RING TO AVOID SUBMISSION (Leg Lock rollout escapes will be at the referees full discretion)
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a. Takedown or Throw ending on Top in Guard or Half Guard = 2 points
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Note: Points will be awarded separately for Full Mount after an additional 3 count of control.
c. Sweep with Legs (from Half Guard or Full Guard) = 2 points
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NOTE: inversions or power rolls from side, Full or North/South are not considered Sweeps & will not awarded any points or advantages
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f. Mounted position (both knees on the ground) = 4 points (must hold for 3 count to be awarded)
g. Back Mount with Leg Hooks (or Knees on the Ground with opponent Flat on his Stomach) = 4 points (must hold for 3 count to be awarded)
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NOTE: Competitors to actively jump half guard will not be penalized (i.e. their opponent will not receive an advantage) Head Snap Down to rear Control – The Competitor who initiated snap down will receive 1 advantage Turtle Position: Forcing a competitor to defend a sweep or guard pass into the Turtle Position will be awarded an advantage NOTE: No Positional scoring will be made from the Turtle position once help for 3 Count (including jumping full or half guard). Advantages will only be used in the case of a tie with points.
19. Match Lengths:
4 Minutes: All Children/Teen’s, Women’s Beginner, Men’s Novice & Men’s Beginner Matches
5 Minutes: Men’s Intermediate, Women's Intermediate & Men’s Executive & Masters
6 minutes: Men’s/Women’s Advanced
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NOTE: Securing a Leg Lock (and earning an advantage for 3 Count) will nullify (no scoring) a positional change (including sweeps):
Children’s and Teen’s Divisions Beginner and Intermediate = No Leg Locks or Lower Body Attacks are allowed
Children’s and Teen’s Divisions Advanced (more than one year) = only Straight Ankle Locks and Knee bars allowed (No Toe Holds)
NOTE: No Twisting Leg Locks are permitted in ANY Children’s or Teen’s Divisions (including No Toe/Figure Four Holds allowed)
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Men’s Novice, Beginner & Intermediate: Straight Leg Locks (Ankle Locks and Knee Bars) are permitted – No Figure Four Ankle Locks Permitted.
Men’s and Women's Advanced: All leg locks are permitted (heel hooks, figure four toe holds, knee bars, etc.)
Women’s Beginner: only Straight Leg Locks (Ankle Locks and Knee Bars) are permitted – No Figure Four Ankle Locks Permitted
23. REAPING THE KNEE: No reaping (using feet to angle the knee in a dangerous position, similar to heel hook position) in all divisions, except Men’s & Women’s Advanced and Professional Divisions
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU RULES & REGULATIONS:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
1. Takedowns or Throws: Land on Top in Guard, Half Guard or Side Mount 2 points
2. Sweep with Legs (from Half Guard or Full Guard) 2 points
3. Knee on Belly – 2 Points –must show proper posture with one leg fully posted on the “belly” and one stretched out with foot on the ground
4. Pass Guard/Half Guard Fully to Side Mount 3 points – Must fully clear legs and arms and have opponent on back
5. Mounted position (both knees on the ground) 4 points
6. Back Mount with Leg Hooks (or Knees on the Ground with opponent Flat on his Stomach) 4 points
7. Points will be accumulated during the entire length of the match.
8. Advantages: described as submission attempts that posed a real threat to the other fighter, near takedowns, near sweep, near passes etc.). The referee will signal verbally (i.e. Advantage red) and with his/her arm by moving it in a horizontal motion.
9. Advantages will only be used in the case of a tie with points.
10. referee will signal all Points verbally (i.e. 2 Points Green) and by signaling with his/her color coded wristbands and fingers as points are tallied – to ensure points/advantages are properly counted.
11. Match Durations:
Kid’s/Teen’s: 4 minutes
All White Belts: 5 minutes
All Blue Belt: 6 minutes
Purple-Belt: 7 minutes
Brown-Belts: 8 minutes
Black-Belt: 10 minutes
12. No Overtime: In the BJJ divisions, there is no Overtime. The effective aggressor most likely wins if no points are scored. Do not leave it up to the referee and please respect their decision either way.
13. LEG LOCKS (BJJ):
a. All Men’s, Women’s and Master’s White, Blue, and Purple Belts: Straight Ankle Locks and Kneebars are Allowed, No Twisting Leg Locks or Figure Fours are Permitted
b. All Men’s, Women’s and Master’s Brown/Black Belt Divisions: Straight Ankle Locks, Kneebars and Figure Four Ankle Locks are Allowed
14. No Reaping of the Knee (using feet to angle the knee in a dangerous position, similar to heel hook position) –
15. No Heel Hooks or Calf Crushers
16. Required Uniform for BJJ: A Clean Kimono (any brand) with sleeves no shorter than four fingers width from the wrist, Any Color Kimono is acceptable, but the bottom and top must match. Competitors weigh in without their Kimono. MEN NO T-SHIRTS OR RASHGUARDS UNDER KIMONOS (females can wear sports bra or support tank top).





Sorry if that is a lot to read. It's the updated rules & states no neck or cervical cranks. Although, it sounds like the ref wasn't paying too much attention. And the match should have been ended as soon as the guillotine was put on. not until your son was nearing the pass out point.


I recently was rolling with my instructor, latched on a guillotine, & made his nose bleed 2 weeks ago. He told me it was tight. Things like this in kids divisions should be stopped early, or the rules refined to where guillotines are not allowed in the kids divisions.


Sorry that happened to you, & your son. Good luck in the future.