When will learning self-defence be simple?

[still learning]

Hello, When will "learning how to defend yourself "be simple and easy to learn and remember and most of us can do it!

Lots of untrain/ non-martial artist everyday do protect themselves very effectively...that means there is a very simple way to learn enough techniques to escape or survive!

Also for the many who train in martial arts...have simple and easy to use techniques that we can apply.

Such as: eye pokes, thoat-pressing/striking, biting, groin hits, ear slapping, nose smashing, most of these do not require years of learning or powerful striking methods of learning.

Plus if you learn and train in a safe enviroment all the time? ...you will never face the adrenline fear, being alone unprotected, the dark, unknown, fear situtions in real life....can you react? will you be able to get into the right frame of mind...to protect yourself?

Self-defense should be simple and easy to use.....ALWAY KEEP IT SIMPLE...who has time for 100 techniques when being attack (seconds)

Eye am for IT! Aloha,

PS: Remember a street encounter last for a few seconds only...the bad guy wants any fight to end quickly and you unable to defend yourself...weapons or not....

[Daniel Sullivan]

Basics, basics, basics. I will go out on a limb and say that much of what we would need in terms of techniques to use in self defense from most martial arts is learned in the white to green belt stages, or equivallent thereof, depending upon the art.

The consistent and prolonged practice of the basics is something that most people do not do, assailant or not.

In that sense, it is fairly easy. More advanced techniques are in your toolbox for those occasions when the basics are not enough or you need to end an encounter quickly and the opportunity to use an advanced technique presents itself.

Daniel

[LuckyKBoxer]

If you want simple self defense that is quick and easy to learn and use, then you need to go buy a shotgun, and shells, learn how to load it, how to shoot it, and then pay attention.... everything else is to be used when you forget your gun, or can't get your gun.

[Andy Moynihan]

You can do it NOW.

You don't need a full blown martial art just to be good at defending yourself. But a lot of folks like the extra effort put into the self perfection side of things and find that extra stuff fun.

That's one of the great things about the martial arts is there's something in there for everyone.

[blindsage]

Did anyone ever say you can't defend yourself if you don't spend 10 years studying a martial art? There are all kinds of basic self defense courses that are short, direct, and useful. So the answer is...now. And now that you have your answer, the rest of us can get back to training.

[BLACK LION]

just adding to what has already been posted.

simplicity is in the principles.
There can be 1500 techniques that all rely on 1 principle.

Plenty of times and "untrained" person gets the better of a "trained" person and thats becuase the untrained person knows that violence will get results they want....and its so simple and 8 year old can do.

Striking should focus on targets and the effects and spinal reflex associated with it.
Joint locks-manipulations-come alongs etc should stress the simple principles that every joint break has in common... there is 1 way to break a joint and only 1 way. there are only 6 ways to get there.

[terryl965]

Self defense is easy, the problem is with the attacker they just don't do it thew right way kinda like Jim Carry on Saturday night when he was aworld champion and the lady keep stabbing him and all he said you are doing it wrong like this like this. If you want simple stay inside lock all your doors and never come out for any reason..... I will send flowers and speak at the funeral.

[Jenna]

Short answer: yes, self defence can be simple right now, the caveat being COMPETENT self defence takes time :)

The basic techniques must be properly taught and also properly practiced. I do not think it is enough to spend a two hour seminar learning basic gouges, key-strikes, shin heeling and whatever if the participant is not conditioned to *use* those techniques WITH INTENT. I think too often quick-and-dirty basic defence seminars and courses offer little to the participants beyond delusional self confidence on the one hand and techniques that many (particularly women I have found) are actually afraid to use.

I am not arguing about the necessity for basic defence, absolutely not and but I think that a degree of diligent and committed practice *as though the participant is being attacked for real* is imperative if the techniques are to be of any value whatsoever.

To say the we can somehow be capable in our own defence after just a few basic techniques is not something I could agree with. At best we give those students a better chance or a longer survive in the event of an assault. I have not wasted all these years gratuitously padding out what I learned in my first few weeks. I am trying to develop responses for every feasible mode of attack. Yes, it will take me forever to wade through all permutations and become proficient in the defence thereof and but I have no intention of letting the hypothesis of mortality prevent me from trying ;)

Sorry if that is a big rant :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Thesemindz]

Self Defense is simple to learn and easy to remember.

Learn how to use a gun

Learn when to use it.

Learn a palm strike, knee strike, clinch position, elbow, and low front kick.

Learn when to use them.

Avoid dangerous situations.

Voila.

Self defense is fairly simple. You can learn it in a few lessons and if you practice it from time to time you can use it relatively effectively.

Learning martial arts on the other hand, is far more complex.


-Rob

[GBlues]

Well, I'm gonna have to be the bearer of bad news, and the counter statement guy here. Because the simple fact of the matter is this. You do not need 15 different ways to defend against a right hook. It's not necassary, and it's it only serves the instructor to teach so many variations. You don't need a 1000 techniques, it's overkill. If all you want is to be able to defend yourself when you have to, you don't need all of that stuff. The reality is like black lion said, the very best people at dealing out violence most usually never even train. Because they don't need to. Violence is not a monopoly that martial artist or criminals own. It's a tool that is available to everybody, and the simple fact of the matter is this. If your not learning how to use violence as a tool to incapacitate your attacker you are not learning self-defense. Your still in a dueling state of mind. Where it's still all about giving the other guy a chance. I don't care how good the other guy is, and I don't want to find out. You know it's really interesting how people say it takes a life time to really learn how to defend yourself. Yet, in ww2 people were being sent into combat with as little as 14 hours of hand to hand combat training, and performing some of the most sohpisticated forms of combat, ie...assassinations and such.

The real caveat is this. You can learn to defend yourself in a very short period of time, as far as techniques or moves go. It's the other things that take time, that will make you good with those techniques that you've learned. IT's so simple.....You just need to practice. That's it, that's all. Learn a core set of principles. Like black lion said again, there is only 1 way to break an arm, but there are six different ways to get to that 1 way. So if you learned the principles behind that one way to break an arm, you probably could figure out on your own the other six ways to get to that one way. And you just practice. Practice, practice and practice. Learning martial arts in my mind should be just like riding a bicycle. Once you learn to ride a bike you never forget. Unfortunately studying martial arts isn't that way. If you stop practicing you'll get rusty and you'll forget. However, the simpler the moves, longer you will retain the information, and the easier it will be use in a real violent situation. The more complicated, the harder to remember, and the harder to use in a real violent situation. So in short does it, or should it take 20 years to be able to defend yourself? Absolutely, if you study the so called "Traditional Martial Arts" on the other hand if decide to go with a Reality Based Fighting system, ehhh....probably not so long to be effective.

Just my opinion.

[blindsage]

Well, I'm gonna have to be the bearer of bad news, and the counter statement guy here. Because the simple fact of the matter is this.

Just my opinion.

Sooo...fact, or opinion?

[BLACK LION]

Both fact and opinion.

I will post a tidbit from an email I received from "Captain Chris" here recently. I do not buy his products or attend his seminars becuase I dont need to but what he says is interesting.

"Hi BRODERICK
Every single day I get a literal FLOOD of emails
all saying the same jazz...
"Why are you saying such harsh things about my
martial art?"
"My art is too self defense you big jerk"
"My sensei says..."
Baa, Baa, Baa, Baa, Baa...
What a bunch of sheep most people are.
Always following the flock...even when they're
headed off a cliff towards impending doom.
Listen, I'm an educator and a coach first and
foremost, so I will NEVER poke fun at anyone
asking a question. (The only bad question is the
one not asked)
What I will not stand for is people desperately
clinging to an ideal or mindset that was forged
on hearsay, theory, or complete nonsense.
Like I always say...Religion, politics, & the
martial arts. 3 things never to discuss unless
you're looking for an argument.
So here's Captain Chris' "official" stance on ALL
martial arts...
They're ALL great.
Each distinctive one has multiple benefits; be it
cultural, sporting, personal achievement,
physical fitness, etc. I firmly believe that
everyone should take a martial art and support
their local dojo, dojang, sifu, sensei, or
instructor.
But NONE of them are self defense.
N-O-N-E...
And please let me clarify before the sheep start
bleating:
Can you use any of the thousands of martial arts
styles to defend yourself? Maybe, maybe not.
Can you use it if you're dead tired? Maybe, maybe
not.
Can you use it if you have a broken leg and are
on crutches? Maybe, maybe not.
Can you use it if you're faced with 3
gang-bangers with baseball bats? Maybe, maybe
not.
Can you use it if you've already been shot or
stabbed? Maybe, maybe not.
Can Close Combat do all those things...Yes.
Every single time. No ifs...no ands...no butts.
Simply because it operates under a different set
of physical and mental laws, the principles of
gross-motor movements, Close Combat can literally
be used if you've got nothing left but one
shattered limb to swing at your attacker.
It can be used with the same brutal effectively
if you're a 12 year old Girl Scout, a 25 year old
power lifter, a 35 year old soccer mom, a 45 year
old dad, a 55 year old executive, a 65 year old
retiree, a 75 year old grandma, or an 85 year old
Vet.
Listen, I am a martial artist.
I already have five black belts and am busy
working on two others.
But when the proverbial @#&% hits the fan...and
I'm called upon to save my life, my family, or
those whom can't protect themselves...
"Maybe, maybe not" is not a good enough answer
for me. (Is it for you?)
I want a whole-hearted, scientifically proven,
battle tested Y-E-S.
And Close Combat is that only yes.
Don't be a sheep...
Pull away from the flock, be something special..."

Fear No Man,
Captain Chris
World Leader In Self Defense

[TigerCraneGuy]

The way I see it, the problem lies with the term 'self defense'.

To me, training in a martial art is about learning to fight based upon a specific methodology, which in turn is built upon specific rules / principles. Whether the art be boxing, BJJ, Kenpo, TKD, Wing Chun etc, it doesn't really matter. ultimately, it's still about learning how to fight. And I don't mean 'fight' as in 'to duel', but 'fight' as in 'to take your opponent apart and render them unable to retaliate'.

Self-defense, on the other hand, is more all-encompassing. To me, it's both a mindset and a methodology, which includes building heightened awareness, forming good habits that promote personal safety, understanding the art of negotiation / de-escalation, and then finally... learning how to fight if all else fails.

And so, imho, for the average person, it isn't all that hard to learn 'self defense'. If you stay alert and aware and practice avoidance as the preferred option, you can probably get away with never learning to how to fight.

That said, if some area of your life that you cannot easily discard constantly places you in dangerous situations (e.g. you're a cop, corrections officer, doorman, combat soldier, or the guy working the midnight shift at a petrol station), then in addition to the other, more cerebral aspects of 'self-defense', it might actually be useful to learn how to fight! And I don't mean just H2H, but whatever suits the arena, whether it be pistol-craft or how to use a baseball bat effectively!

Which brings me to my last point: While you don't need to know a hundred techs to know how to fight, whatever you do learn should be practiced dilligently till it becomes second-nature. Practice, practice, practice, and then when you're done... practice again!

A jab may be a simple technique... but learning to wield it effectively always requires hard work!:)


Regards,
TCG

[BLACK LION]

Dare I say "self offense" ....

I myself utilize this methdology simply becuase the word "defense" in itself connotates a reactionary state. Whereas the word "offense" connotates an actionary state. I would like to think I am somewhat resoponsible for bringing this contrast to light and adopting offensive rather than defensive. Defensive also connotates certain social and legal aspects as well.

I understand this in and of itself opens a big can o worms but its the methodology that I have an affinity for. I may be one of the few out there that classifies my training under "offensive" only and never "defensive".

I do not wish to step on toes or create a huge upheaval. I am merely giving insight from my personal stance.

My training is and always will be... Unconventional - Offensive- and "combatives" oriented...

[mook jong man]

Within the first six months of my Wing Chun training I had learned four corner deflection and had attained a decent level of speed , force and reflex . I was quite surprised when one of my instructors said that along with a fast Pak Sau and punch it was pretty much all I needed to win most fights on the street.

I could have probably dropped out right then , and a lot of people do , only merely scratching the surface of the art. But I soon came to realise that I enjoyed this art and the release of stress that it engenders , the total concentration that is required that tends to put any day to day worries outside of training into perspective .

After all you can't be thinking about how much of a jerk your boss is , or the fight you just had with your Missus when your at training and punches and kicks are whizzing around your head , zen like concentration is needed at that particular time .

So for most of us I imagine , it goes beyond the learning of self defence techniques , most of us would have learnt them to a sufficient level long ago .
The thing that has kept me going through the years is that I am still learning and to me it is more than an art , it is a science that I enjoy.

[chinto]

Now if you wish. there are a lot of simple and effective basic techniques that you can use and learn easily.

That is of course on top of perhaps learning to use a fire arm if you wish.

I would suggest the old books of "Get Tough" by W.E. Fairbairn and "kill or Get Killed" by Col. Rex Applegate.

I would point out that learning a martial art system just expands your options, and increases your effectiveness by a great deal when you can not get to that fire arm.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I would like to offer this position. Martial arts systems each encompass a skill set. That skill set may include philosophy and sport in addition to the techniques, but essentially, each system is a collection of techniques.

Self defense is the application of those techniques. It is not self defense until you are defending yourself against an assailant. Just as it is not combat until the soldeir is deployed against a hostile enemy.

We train for the possibility that we may have to defend ourselves. Just as the soldier trains for combat. We train continuously and regularly so as to be ready. The military would call that preparedness.

We each hope that we never have to actually use our skills. Real attacks rarely go the way that they do in the movies and a wrong decision can result in death or permanent injury at someone else's hands.

Thus we train so that when the time comes, our actions spring from techniques and strategies that have been internalized through long hours of practice, and thus require no pause for thought in their usage.

Daniel

[MJS]

Hello, When will "learning how to defend yourself "be simple and easy to learn and remember and most of us can do it!

Lots of untrain/ non-martial artist everyday do protect themselves very effectively...that means there is a very simple way to learn enough techniques to escape or survive!

Also for the many who train in martial arts...have simple and easy to use techniques that we can apply.

Such as: eye pokes, thoat-pressing/striking, biting, groin hits, ear slapping, nose smashing, most of these do not require years of learning or powerful striking methods of learning.

Plus if you learn and train in a safe enviroment all the time? ...you will never face the adrenline fear, being alone unprotected, the dark, unknown, fear situtions in real life....can you react? will you be able to get into the right frame of mind...to protect yourself?

Self-defense should be simple and easy to use.....ALWAY KEEP IT SIMPLE...who has time for 100 techniques when being attack (seconds)

Eye am for IT! Aloha,

PS: Remember a street encounter last for a few seconds only...the bad guy wants any fight to end quickly and you unable to defend yourself...weapons or not....

Yes, the simple things should be a no-brainer for just about anyone, however, are things really that simple? IMHO, what needs to be developed first, is a foundation. Without a base to build from, things that are thrown may not be as effective as they could be.

Think about this. Watch a new student in class. Watch how un-coordinated they are when throwing kicks, punches, blocks, etc. If things were 'that simple' then they'd look like they've been training for 30yrs. Everything they threw would be flawless.

Now, yes, once those basics are finetuned, once a solid foundation is built, then, its not so much the techniques that matter, but the principles and concepts behind them. We shouldn't expect someone to exeute a textbook tech. perfectly, but we should expect them to use ideas from that tech. to defend themselves.

[Hudson69]

There are some KISS systems out there, the military uses them, law enforcement uses them and more and they are very effective combat proven arts but some (most?) study the martial arts for more than just the self defense aspects of thier art; some like the comaraderie, the passing along ancient traditions, the physical workouts and more.

If you really want a simple defense system you can find one and you can always buy a DVD from someone, there are several out there as well if you do not want to go to a school but the benefit of studying the martial arts is that you learn more than the basics and this just allows you to have more "tools" to use for a larger variety of situations.

Anything you do is up to you....

[MJS]

There are some KISS systems out there, the military uses them, law enforcement uses them and more and they are very effective combat proven arts but some (most?) study the martial arts for more than just the self defense aspects of thier art; some like the comaraderie, the passing along ancient traditions, the physical workouts and more.

If you really want a simple defense system you can find one and you can always buy a DVD from someone, there are several out there as well if you do not want to go to a school but the benefit of studying the martial arts is that you learn more than the basics and this just allows you to have more "tools" to use for a larger variety of situations.

Anything you do is up to you....

I said this before in another thread, but its worth repeating here. I was given a dvd set to view. After watching the first few minutes of this dvd, the first thing that came to my mind was that it was not something suited for a beginner, due to the fact that the content was not what you'd see on a typical dvd. There was no teaching of techniques. There was no instruction on how to properly throw a punch, kick, etc. It was assumed that the viewer already had a base. It showed various attacks, and a number of possible responses to them, but without a foundation, a newbie to the arts, would most likely watch this and wonder what the hell to do with it.

It took principles and concepts that should already be learned, and put them to use, by showing possible counters to the attack, but again, no set or specific techniques. The possibilities that were shown were endless.

My point of this was not to comment on what you said about buying a dvd, but to emphasise what I said earlier about having a base to build from.

[Guardian]

Self-Defense will be easy when I'm in my grave or scattered over the Rocky Mountains. It'll be real easy then.:)

[still learning]

Hello, and thank-youl for your thoughts and opinions here.....this can be an endless disscusions.

One day a simple poke in the eye might work....other times a train mind and body might be need to survive an attacker...

Awareness and Advoidance.....most likely the best thing to learn and use!

This is were being smarter (the mind) and escaping unharm ( the body)...leaves peaceful away........

Can self-defense be simple? ....Yes and always

Sign Smith and Wesson........Aloha

[Thems Fighting Words]

Effective SD, quick and simple? Yes but dependent on who you're defending yourself against. The staple; eye gouges and groin strikes are next to useless against a truly skilled and aggressive opponent.




If you want simple self defense that is quick and easy to learn and use, then you need to go buy a shotgun, and shells, learn how to load it, how to shoot it, and then pay attention.... everything else is to be used when you forget your gun, or can't get your gun.
Not an option for everyone outside of America. I suggest instead getting a sharp and strong four to six inch letter opener and learning to use it. Always legal to carry outside of a plane.

[suicide]

when you make it simple if :angel:

once you got the basics down packed everything else will come easily ...

[GBlues]

There is such a thing as easy,effective, simple to use self-defense. Now whether anyone wants to believe that or not is irregardless of the fact, that it does exist. I love hearing how, " My basics and your basics aren't going to be the same. I have basics that to most people seem like they are lightyears advanced above anybody else in the universe, but to me, they are the basics." And you know what I say to that ********! It's all egotistical machismo, crap. All it takes is to watch a tournament, any tournament, taekwondo, kenpo, ufc, mma to know, that it's crap. You fall back on the beginning basics, and even at that from what I've seen is that most blackbelts end up looking like two school yard kids flailing at each other. You never see a striking technique performed the way it is done in a dojo. Why? Because very few people are being taught the truth about combat. The truth is this. The very best people at dealing out violence are the people sitting in our correctional facilities. Most of them have never even been trained. In a self-defense situation there are only to states of conflict. Those that are getting violence performed on them, and those that are performing that violence on some one else. Here's a real simple way to find out if somebody is a point fighter, a bad ass, or a killer. Point fighters strike there opponent where there opponent is at. A bad ass strikes and his foot is where his opponent was at. A killer strikes and his whole body is where his opponent was at. Big differences here. When your life depends upon the skill that you have learned, it had better be effective, simple, and most of all easy to use. In other words all of your skills really should be aimed at causing the most amount of injury in the least amount of time. I know you know we all worry about legal issues and this that and the other. But the reality is, we should never be in social confrontation. It shouldn't be that big of a problem to our ego's to just back down. But when you are violently attacked by somebody that wants to do you as much damage as they can in the least amount of time. You need something that is going to even the odds, and unfortunately most martial arts fall far short. There are a few in my mind that would be effective, but they still fall far short of the simple is better motto.

Now that being said I'm going to give you a guys a true story about a guy who I knew when I was younger. This was a guy who studied 3 or 4 different martial arts, and was very good. He was taking the trash out at one the local grocery stores. He was attacked no warning, no provocation just simply attacked, by 3 guys that wanted to inflict as much damage as they could in the shortest amount of time possible. All of his training failed him. He was put in the hospital and was never the same afterwards. Now, are you going to tell me that what he studied was effective? Probably was, but not when it really mattered. When it's not " I'm going to fight you and were going to duel and see who is better" mindset, it didn't work out so well for him. Because he never had a chance to duel.

There are systems out there that do directly deal with this type of problem. They simply focus on one thing and one thing only, and that is get injuries. Injuries are the only thing that stop attackers. All the techniques in the world aren't going to help you. You need targets and you need to know how to destroy those targets. That is what will save your life, in a real violent situation. I'm being beat on, I'm the ground, but hey, I can roll right on that guys ankle and break it. So you do and that is where you start.

[blindsage]

Thanks for sharing the truth with us, I'm sure we're all better off for it.

[BLACK LION]

From a self preservation standpoint which is the core of every human.

I dont want to be on the maybe/maybe-not end of most training out there.

I want a guarantee.

"A 9mm is good for SD situations, especially with well placed shots"...

Well maybe, maybe not??? that depends on x or y or z???

the gross motor functions enabled to assist the human body in "preservation" cannot waste precious seconds with this indecisiveness.

A 12ga with 00 buck or 1oz slugs is a gurantee.

I dont have time to fiddle with the "knife defense" or the "bat defense" or the "gun disarm" techniques... I only need to focus on the basic relative and contrasting principles and train/act accordingly. I must focus on the single principle that supercedes any technique... the brain is the most powerful weapon and the body is secondary to that... If I shut it off there is no threat... If I break the body it cannot move... snap on tools and labor saving devices are inanimate and harmless without a body behind them with the intent and ability to put it to use.... even if an ak47 is on my face it is not my priority or my focus... the brain that tells the finger to pull the trigger IS... The arm that functions to hold and fire the rifle IS... not the rifle itself. Technique will have us envisioning some deul in which trained skill can be put to use... it also connotates violence as being some sort of chaotic occurence... Dancing with the technique playbook will get you a one way ticket on a stretcher ride when dealing with a true situation in which protection and preservation is the highest priority....

refine your skills with the principles that underline what you train... thats the basics... and thats the simplicity.... You will find that most of what everyone trains is defined by the same principles but diluted by technique and style...

[GBlues]

Effective SD, quick and simple? Yes but dependent on who you're defending yourself against. The staple; eye gouges and groin strikes are next to useless against a truly skilled and aggressive opponent.




Not an option for everyone outside of America. I suggest instead getting a sharp and strong four to six inch letter opener and learning to use it. Always legal to carry outside of a plane.

Injuries have the same effect on everybody. Doesn't matter if your Bruce Lee if you jab him in the eye, it's a) going to hurt b) cause his other eye water in sympathy for the eye that was just damaged,c) cause a spinal reflex action that gives you a moment to pick, and attack another target to cause more injury too. Doesn't matter how skilled you are. If your hit in the carotid artery your going to react the same way an unskilled person will. Injuries aren't something that, you can say, "well i've taken punches before and I can take a shot to the throat." It doesn't work that way. You can stab a guy 57 times and never hit a vital target. It only takes once or twice to hit one or two vital targets and the guy is going to die, no matter how tough that he is. So while you can say it's worthless against a trained skilled opponent. Let somebody poke a finger in your eye just once and see how well you can fight after that. Not very.

[GBlues]

Thanks for sharing the truth with us, I'm sure we're all better off for it.

Hey your welcome man. No problem at all. Anytime. LOL!http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[still learning]

Hello, Our Professor once mention...NO matter your skills...NO one can prevent or stop a "false crack" -the unexpected hit?

Like all accidents in cars and otherwise....it is simple to look back and everyone tells you could have done this or that...fact is s"UNEXPECTED HIT?" are hard to recover from... So with training or without training...this is one thing no one can protect themselves.

There will always be stitutions...were simple works and sometimes it doesn't.

Walking thru the sidewalks in Waikiki with lots of people all around you...suddenly as two cops walk by me....I get grab from behind by one of them...."unexpected stop" it turns out it was a friend who I hadn't seen in years....whew!

For the many that trains...will always get friends,love ones, that do not want to train...but ask what they can use to protect themselves...

Again Awareness and Avoidance (be alert to your surroundings) is my advise and in life or death.....the EYES HAVE MY VOTE! ....AND anyone can do this!

Aloha, simple foods...usually taste good all the time...SPAM MUSIBI

[girlbug2]

Sure, learning self defense is simple.
Just like childbirth is simple.
But not easy...
nor quick.

[Thems Fighting Words]

Injuries have the same effect on everybody. Doesn't matter if your Bruce Lee if you jab him in the eye, it's a) going to hurt b) cause his other eye water in sympathy for the eye that was just damaged,c) cause a spinal reflex action that gives you a moment to pick, and attack another target to cause more injury too. Doesn't matter how skilled you are. If your hit in the carotid artery your going to react the same way an unskilled person will. Injuries aren't something that, you can say, "well i've taken punches before and I can take a shot to the throat." It doesn't work that way. You can stab a guy 57 times and never hit a vital target. It only takes once or twice to hit one or two vital targets and the guy is going to die, no matter how tough that he is. So while you can say it's worthless against a trained skilled opponent. Let somebody poke a finger in your eye just once and see how well you can fight after that. Not very.

Eye gouges and groin strikes are not as effective as SD makes them out to be for a number of reasons. Teaching them as be all and end alls is plain dangerous.

1. They are targeting small areas which are instinctively defended. Even harder to hit if the guy you're fighting has trained to further safe guard against them.

2. Groin striking is a pain inducer not an injury inducer. Put simply, a groin strike will not stop a determined opponent who is pumped on adrenaline let alone one raging on drugs. I have been kneed and kicked in the groin and not felt it till minutes later. As for eye gouges, have you ever dissected an eye? They are a lot more resilient to injury then most give them credit for. Also, a skilled grappler can rip you apart without their eyesight. Oh and I have been poked in the eye, hurt after a few minutes, blurry vision for a bit than fine in the morning. Even throat strikes, unless they severly damage an opponent's wind tract are pain inducers and again will not stop a determiend attack.

3. Most people who are taught these "ubber finishers" are short changing themselves. When the finisher doesn't work, they could freeze up.

Oh and I'm not even going to go into the whole "full resistance" arguments out there.




All in all, as I stated previously. What classifies SD as effective and easy to learn depends on what / who you're defending against yourself.

[qwksilver61]

Sad.....when no one wants to commit...when people think,OK!this is enough,I don't need to pay my dues or really learn self-defence.
Instant everything........bummer

[BLACK LION]

For the record. I am not saying this is an overnight occurrence.
I am providing information that has made it easier to learn and to train others. I have been at it for 25 years. The last 7 or more have been spent doing it all over again but this time with only principle and focus on inherent weaknesses evey human shares and the uncontrolled reactions that co-incide with them all. I do believe learning can be done quickly but building integrity takes time and training and practice. I relate this to a US NAVY destroyer... It can be built failry quickly and capable of many things but it takes time with the crew and training and practice to build its overall integrity as a battleship.



Eye gouges and groin strikes are not as effective as SD makes them out to be for a number of reasons. Teaching them as be all and end alls is plain dangerous.

No one is saying its an "end all" and the only go-to target. The EYES are however a sensory organ that cannot be physically strengthened by going to the gym or taking supplements or drugs or anything. "
"Eye gouging"is the act of pressing or tearing the eye using the fingers, other bodyparts, or instruments. Eye-gouging involves a very high risk of permanent eye injury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_injury), such as visual impairment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_impairment)

exophthalmos= protrusion of the eye from the orbit, or socket.

traumatic globe luxation=the eye is jolted far enough out of its socket for the eyelids to close behind it, but the eye muscles and optic nerve generally remain intact.

traumatic avulsion of the globe= the muscles and optic nerve are partially or totally severed, usually because the eye has been knocked completely out of the socket.

Eye gouging has been taught in military combat manuals for decades.... for a reason.

It is effective plain and simple and above all else... it is an INJURY that we all can agree requires immediate medical attention... Like a trip to the ER. Definately a viable target and no its not "commonly and easily defended".

Now on to the jacobs.

Approximately 50 kg of force is required to rupture the testicle...


"Testicular trauma is defined as any injury sustained by the testicle. Types of injuries include blunt, penetrating, or degloving."

"The second most common cause of testicular trauma is a kick to the groin. Less common etiologies include motor vehicle accidents, falls, and straddle injuries."
"The most common cause of penetrating testicular injuries is a gunshot wound to the genital area. Other causes include stab wounds, self-mutilation, animal bites (usually dog), and emasculation."
"The most common cause of degloving testicular injuries is accidents incurred while operating heavy machinery (eg, industrial or farming accidents)."
"Patients with testicular trauma typically present to the emergency department with a straightforward history of injury (eg, sports injury, kick to the groin, gunshot wound) soon after the event occurs"
"Patients who have sustained severe blunt trauma usually exhibit symptoms of extreme scrotal pain, frequently associated with nausea and vomiting"

A ruptured testicle or torn scrotum is an injury that requires medical attention if not surgery... If you think of only "kicking the balls" you are failing to encompass the goal of utilizing that precious target and activating the text book spinal reflex associated with it...

If I shove my patela or forearm or shin with my entire mass into your testicles with the intent on making ovaries out of them I will get results that will lead me to the next target which would most likely be the brachial plexus since you would be curled over and clutching the effected area.

The point is not to train to take an easy or cheap shot and call it a day. The goal is to injure inherent targets we all have and access the spinal reflex associated in order to set up the next strike to the next target to accesss the spinal reflex and so on....
We are not just blindly ponding meat in hopes to win the lottery.
I know where I want to hit everyone I see becuase I know what you will give me in exchange for me striking that area. A spinal reflex that goliath himself has/had no control over....no one can.

We are talking pain vs. injury.... I get pain and discomfort by flicking your eye and scratching it or crumpling your contact lenses... I get injury by gettting in there like a rabid lion and shoving my thumbs down to the knuckle into the eye sockets and ripping them out....

clearly 2 different mindets and 2 different levels of intent/ability

1. They are targeting small areas which are instinctively defended. Even harder to hit if the guy you're fighting has trained to further safe guard against them. This is your perception that IMO is not based on specific study and/or training in targeting. Its is common for folks to bring these up and single them out but I am sorry...they are not as fortified and well defended as you say... if that was the case children wouldnt be so successful... I bet you my daughter can hit most people in the jacobs and get a text book reflex...then poke or scratch the eye once they bend over... whats funny is she will say "wanna see my barbie"....

2. Groin striking is a pain inducer not an injury inducer. Put simply, a groin strike will not stop a determined opponent who is pumped on adrenaline let alone one raging on drugs. I have been kneed and kicked in the groin and not felt it till minutes later. As for eye gouges, have you ever dissected an eye? They are a lot more resilient to injury then most give them credit for. Also, a skilled grappler can rip you apart without their eyesight. Oh and I have been poked in the eye, hurt after a few minutes, blurry vision for a bit than fine in the morning. Even throat strikes, unless they severly damage an opponent's wind tract are pain inducers and again will not stop a determiend attack. The difference here is clear... you are reffereing to social situations in which the elasticity of punching and kicking was the driving force... If I take my forearm and shove it into your throat with 195lbs of force behind it...you will go to the hospital. If I punch you in the neck you may cough a lil, maybe choke, maybe pass out but the effects will wear off quick and you will be back in the game.
The eyes and groin arent the only targets...there are upwards of 50 viable targets including the organs.

Let me make reference to the knockout blow delivered by pacquiao to hattons "supersternal notch"... every punch to the face and body and every knockdown up to that point was irrelevant. That blow put him down and put him in bad shape. It was clear he was unable to breathe by the jerking of his chest and arching of his spine. Same thing happened to oscar de lajoya when he was punched in the liver...

3. Most people who are taught these "ubber finishers" are short changing themselves. When the finisher doesn't work, they could freeze up.

Oh and I'm not even going to go into the whole "full resistance" arguments out there.

There is no such thing as a 1 hit quit or 1 shot 1 kill in my training or anything make reference to... I train to strike targets to injure them and gain the spinal reflex associated to put them into position for the next injury and so on till I am satisfied... not until someone taps out or gurgles... I do not train to punch and kick meat in hopes to get ,lucky or win the lottery or to gain some social record as the winner...

there is a difference between ruthless-violent agression and an egotistical display of monkey politics by establishing pecking order or alpha male status.

As far as "full resistance" is concerned... they are all "resistant" until politely or unpolitely convinced otherwise. This I can guarantee...eveyone no matter the state or stature has buttons that will put them down temporarily of for good. Its your job to get in there and get the work done without compromise and without doubt and without excuse. Just do it.

No you cant swallow an elephant whole or even in 2 bites... sooooo
How do you eat an elephant??????








1 plate at a time!!!






All in all, as I stated previously. What classifies SD as effective and easy to learn depends on what / who you're defending against yourself.

Effectiveness is in the will and intent of the warrior and the ability to force it in action... it has nothing to do with the other person place or thing.

I am effective becuase I will be... I am 300% and my opponent is 0%
It has everything to do with:
Physical management
Mental management
Emotional management
if any of these things are not at 100% in training or in combat then you are compromising yourself and vulnerable to the will and ability of your opponent....

300% you and 0% them.... always.... no excuses no exeptions

[BLACK LION]

the difference between pain and injury is simple...
http://68forums.com/forums/image.php?u=10201&dateline=1241021336
Here is a photo from a trining session not long ago... notice I am striking the eyes with all my weight on someone who is taller and weighs more... I am under his base and he is completely off of his.... you can guess where he ended up next once the rotation and projection cycle was complete...
on the ground about 6ft away...

[Thems Fighting Words]

Very well written piece Black Lion. I must admit that I'm glad you posted up as you did because it forces me to qualify why I'm not an eye-gouging / groin striking proponent. I'll do my best to address your points.



TWF: Eye gouges and groin strikes are not as effective as SD makes them out to be for a number of reasons. Teaching them as be all and end alls is plain dangerous.

BL: No one is saying its an "end all" and the only go-to target. The EYES are however a sensory organ that cannot be physically strengthened by going to the gym or taking supplements or drugs or anything. "
"Eye gouging"is the act of pressing or tearing the eye using the fingers, other bodyparts, or instruments. Eye-gouging involves a very high risk of permanent eye injury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_injury), such as visual impairment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_impairment)

exophthalmos= protrusion of the eye from the orbit, or socket.

traumatic globe luxation=the eye is jolted far enough out of its socket for the eyelids to close behind it, but the eye muscles and optic nerve generally remain intact.

traumatic avulsion of the globe= the muscles and optic nerve are partially or totally severed, usually because the eye has been knocked completely out of the socket.

Eye gouging has been taught in military combat manuals for decades.... for a reason.

It is effective plain and simple and above all else... it is an INJURY that we all can agree requires immediate medical attention... Like a trip to the ER. Definately a viable target and no its not "commonly and easily defended".
Yes eye gouging can be effective but not in the way most train it. I've seen too many MA schools who teach their eye gouges as basic rakes and pokes without the use of body weight behind it. Such practices instill over-confidence in a poorly applied technique and because it is next to impossible to utilize full resistance testing in eye gouging, students never realize that they have been set up for failure.
Though I'm going to continue disagreeing with you on the fact that it is not commonly and easily defended. People instinctively cover their faces when threatened. And trained fighter keeps a guard up, pure an simple. If they're not guarding their face it more than likely means they are trying to draw you in.
Viable target? Yes. Easy to attack? No.





BL: Now on to the jacobs.

Approximately 50 kg of force is required to rupture the testicle...


"Testicular trauma is defined as any injury sustained by the testicle. Types of injuries include blunt, penetrating, or degloving."

"The second most common cause of testicular trauma is a kick to the groin. Less common etiologies include motor vehicle accidents, falls, and straddle injuries."
"The most common cause of penetrating testicular injuries is a gunshot wound to the genital area. Other causes include stab wounds, self-mutilation, animal bites (usually dog), and emasculation."
"The most common cause of degloving testicular injuries is accidents incurred while operating heavy machinery (eg, industrial or farming accidents)."
"Patients with testicular trauma typically present to the emergency department with a straightforward history of injury (eg, sports injury, kick to the groin, gunshot wound) soon after the event occurs"
"Patients who have sustained severe blunt trauma usually exhibit symptoms of extreme scrotal pain, frequently associated with nausea and vomiting"

A ruptured testicle or torn scrotum is an injury that requires medical attention if not surgery... If you think of only "kicking the balls" you are failing to encompass the goal of utilizing that precious target and activating the text book spinal reflex associated with it...

If I shove my patela or forearm or shin with my entire mass into your testicles with the intent on making ovaries out of them I will get results that will lead me to the next target which would most likely be the brachial plexus since you would be curled over and clutching the effected area.
Onto the groin. Again my cynicism comes from improper training I've seen and again the problem comes from not being able to engage in full resistance tests for this strike. Too many idiots do flick kicks or other rubbish and call it groin striking.





The point is not to train to take an easy or cheap shot and call it a day. The goal is to injure inherent targets we all have and access the spinal reflex associated in order to set up the next strike to the next target to accesss the spinal reflex and so on....
We are not just blindly ponding meat in hopes to win the lottery.
I know where I want to hit everyone I see becuase I know what you will give me in exchange for me striking that area. A spinal reflex that goliath himself has/had no control over....no one can.

We are talking pain vs. injury.... I get pain and discomfort by flicking your eye and scratching it or crumpling your contact lenses... I get injury by gettting in there like a rabid lion and shoving my thumbs down to the knuckle into the eye sockets and ripping them out....

clearly 2 different mindets and 2 different levels of intent/ability
There's the clincher; pain vs injury. Maybe I'm just jaded from all the rubbish I've seen floating around, but most people fail to properly utilize eye and groin attacks. They fail to realize it is not the be all and end all of combat. It is a tool, like any other. Oh and one thing I have found is that most practitioners lack the mind set to want to inflict permanent injury on their opponents. Whether from legalities or just "ethics" and thus their eye and groins trikes are laughable. BTW: Go back to one of the early UFCs where Varlens submit Kimo's instructor with elbows to the groin. If a 300+lb man needs to elbow a 200lb man three times in the groin with his full weight before the smaller guy taps, what does that say about adrenaline and pain?





1. They are targeting small areas which are instinctively defended. Even harder to hit if the guy you're fighting has trained to further safe guard against them. This is your perception that IMO is not based on specific study and/or training in targeting. Its is common for folks to bring these up and single them out but I am sorry...they are not as fortified and well defended as you say... if that was the case children wouldnt be so successful... I bet you my daughter can hit most people in the jacobs and get a text book reflex...then poke or scratch the eye once they bend over... whats funny is she will say "wanna see my barbie"....
No it is my knowledge based on years of personal experience and discussions with many others; pro-fighters, street fighters and military. As I stated above, people instinctively cover the faces when attacked. It is ingrained in our biology. A skilled fighter will guard his head, just watch any UFC match or even street brawl (where the fighters have a degree of skill).

As for the groin. I have been hit in the groin a number of times and with great ease but those where not combat situations and the my reaction was more psychological than physical. Hitting me in the groin in combat is going to be a lot harder and with adrenaline running, those particular strikes would not have had any effect. How do I know? Because getting kicked in the groin is a conditioning exercise I once used to practice (I quit it on my doctors advise). Heck, I've had the "pleasure" of teaching a student who turned up to class intoxicated and even he was able to protect his groin much more easily and instinctively than nearly any other part of his body (except for his face).





2. Groin striking is a pain inducer not an injury inducer. Put simply, a groin strike will not stop a determined opponent who is pumped on adrenaline let alone one raging on drugs. I have been kneed and kicked in the groin and not felt it till minutes later. As for eye gouges, have you ever dissected an eye? They are a lot more resilient to injury then most give them credit for. Also, a skilled grappler can rip you apart without their eyesight. Oh and I have been poked in the eye, hurt after a few minutes, blurry vision for a bit than fine in the morning. Even throat strikes, unless they severly damage an opponent's wind tract are pain inducers and again will not stop a determiend attack. The difference here is clear... you are reffereing to social situations in which the elasticity of punching and kicking was the driving force... If I take my forearm and shove it into your throat with 195lbs of force behind it...you will go to the hospital. If I punch you in the neck you may cough a lil, maybe choke, maybe pass out but the effects will wear off quick and you will be back in the game.
The eyes and groin arent the only targets...there are upwards of 50 viable targets including the organs.

Let me make reference to the knockout blow delivered by pacquiao to hattons "supersternal notch"... every punch to the face and body and every knockdown up to that point was irrelevant. That blow put him down and put him in bad shape. It was clear he was unable to breathe by the jerking of his chest and arching of his spine. Same thing happened to oscar de lajoya when he was punched in the liver...

TFW: Most people who are taught these "ubber finishers" are short changing themselves. When the finisher doesn't work, they could freeze up.

Oh and I'm not even going to go into the whole "full resistance" arguments out there.

BL: There is no such thing as a 1 hit quit or 1 shot 1 kill in my training or anything make reference to... I train to strike targets to injure them and gain the spinal reflex associated to put them into position for the next injury and so on till I am satisfied... not until someone taps out or gurgles... I do not train to punch and kick meat in hopes to get ,lucky or win the lottery or to gain some social record as the winner...

there is a difference between ruthless-violent agression and an egotistical display of monkey politics by establishing pecking order or alpha male status.
Oh I agree with these statement. But how "quick and easy" is this level of SD to attain? I'd be quite confident in my abilities to use "quick and easy" SD techniques but the training itself was anything but. And this thread (to me anyway) is asking the question of whether an SD curriculum that is "quick and easy" to learn (as opposed to execute) is viable. To which I'm saying no. I've participated in so called short SD courses and have even been asked to host them. But my integrity as MAist means I can't accept the viability of the these course's "vulnerable area attacks" (largely strike based) because I have seen them fail in training and in real life. Better that they focus primarily on conflict avoidance and awareness (which to their credit, more and more SD short courses are doing).





As far as "full resistance" is concerned... they are all "resistant" until politely or unpolitely convinced otherwise. This I can guarantee...eveyone no matter the state or stature has buttons that will put them down temporarily of for good. Its your job to get in there and get the work done without compromise and without doubt and without excuse. Just do it.
By full resistance training I mean utilsing the moves in a training environment against a fully resistant opponent and actually scoring / utilizing the moves and gaining the effects they claim. It doesn't happen, so how can a student be confident in a "go-to" move that they haven't effectively utilised in training?





No you cant swallow an elephant whole or even in 2 bites... sooooo
How do you eat an elephant??????

1 plate at a time!!!
Again this comes down to whether SD can be learnt "easily and effectively". Whether utilizing attrition or exposing weak spots, this level of SD is not something one can learn in a few short and easy lessons.




TFW: All in all, as I stated previously. What classifies SD as effective and easy to learn depends on what / who you're defending against yourself.

BL: Effectiveness is in the will and intent of the warrior and the ability to force it in action... it has nothing to do with the other person place or thing.

I am effective becuase I will be... I am 300% and my opponent is 0%
It has everything to do with:
Physical management
Mental management
Emotional management
if any of these things are not at 100% in training or in combat then you are compromising yourself and vulnerable to the will and ability of your opponent....

300% you and 0% them.... always.... no excuses no exeptions
Okay, now this part is just wrong. You can have all the intent and will you want but if you fight a superior opponent and or are just unlucky, yu will lose. Simple fact. The Polish who fought against Nazi invasion were brave men with the truest intent. They lost because psychology does not guarantee victory over a phsycially superior force.
And again, "easy and simple" SD is not going to allow an average Joe to cultivate that level of mental preparedness.




Alright, now for my little rant. SD should be easy and effective in the techniques it utilises. They should rely on gross muscle action and moves that have been shown again and again to work in training and outside of it. Look at the best fighteres around, they utilize fundamentals and basics, not weird arse show tricks or esoteric hoddo-guru junk. Why? Because easy and effective is what works. The old Keep It Simple Stupid adage. However, just because a technique is "easy and effective" or even simplistic, doesn't mean it is going to be effectively mastered in a few short and easy lessons. That's a pipe dream and anyone who has dedicated any substantial part of their life to MA can see it for what it is.

On a side note. Effective self-defense takes time and training. Effective "self-offense" (eg criminal assaults) only take a desire to harm others and a weapon and/or the element of surprise. So please don't get them mixed up.

[GBlues]

Very well written piece Black Lion. I must admit that I'm glad you posted up as you did because it forces me to qualify why I'm not an eye-gouging / groin striking proponent. I'll do my best to address your points.


Yes eye gouging can be effective but not in the way most train it. I've seen too many MA schools who teach their eye gouges as basic rakes and pokes without the use of body weight behind it. Such practices instill over-confidence in a poorly applied technique and because it is next to impossible to utilize full resistance testing in eye gouging, students never realize that they have been set up for failure.
Though I'm going to continue disagreeing with you on the fact that it is not commonly and easily defended. People instinctively cover their faces when threatened. And trained fighter keeps a guard up, pure an simple. If they're not guarding their face it more than likely means they are trying to draw you in.
Viable target? Yes. Easy to attack? No.




Onto the groin. Again my cynicism comes from improper training I've seen and again the problem comes from not being able to engage in full resistance tests for this strike. Too many idiots do flick kicks or other rubbish and call it groin striking.




There's the clincher; pain vs injury. Maybe I'm just jaded from all the rubbish I've seen floating around, but most people fail to properly utilize eye and groin attacks. They fail to realize it is not the be all and end all of combat. It is a tool, like any other. Oh and one thing I have found is that most practitioners lack the mind set to want to inflict permanent injury on their opponents. Whether from legalities or just "ethics" and thus their eye and groins trikes are laughable. BTW: Go back to one of the early UFCs where Varlens submit Kimo's instructor with elbows to the groin. If a 300+lb man needs to elbow a 200lb man three times in the groin with his full weight before the smaller guy taps, what does that say about adrenaline and pain?




No it is my knowledge based on years of personal experience and discussions with many others; pro-fighters, street fighters and military. As I stated above, people instinctively cover the faces when attacked. It is ingrained in our biology. A skilled fighter will guard his head, just watch any UFC match or even street brawl (where the fighters have a degree of skill).

As for the groin. I have been hit in the groin a number of times and with great ease but those where not combat situations and the my reaction was more psychological than physical. Hitting me in the groin in combat is going to be a lot harder and with adrenaline running, those particular strikes would not have had any effect. How do I know? Because getting kicked in the groin is a conditioning exercise I once used to practice (I quit it on my doctors advise). Heck, I've had the "pleasure" of teaching a student who turned up to class intoxicated and even he was able to protect his groin much more easily and instinctively than nearly any other part of his body (except for his face).




Oh I agree with these statement. But how "quick and easy" is this level of SD to attain? I'd be quite confident in my abilities to use "quick and easy" SD techniques but the training itself was anything but. And this thread (to me anyway) is asking the question of whether an SD curriculum that is "quick and easy" to learn (as opposed to execute) is viable. To which I'm saying no. I've participated in so called short SD courses and have even been asked to host them. But my integrity as MAist means I can't accept the viability of the these course's "vulnerable area attacks" (largely strike based) because I have seen them fail in training and in real life. Better that they focus primarily on conflict avoidance and awareness (which to their credit, more and more SD short courses are doing).





By full resistance training I mean utilsing the moves in a training environment against a fully resistant opponent and actually scoring / utilizing the moves and gaining the effects they claim. It doesn't happen, so how can a student be confident in a "go-to" move that they haven't effectively utilised in training?




Again this comes down to whether SD can be learnt "easily and effectively". Whether utilizing attrition or exposing weak spots, this level of SD is not something one can learn in a few short and easy lessons.




Okay, now this part is just wrong. You can have all the intent and will you want but if you fight a superior opponent and or are just unlucky, yu will lose. Simple fact. The Polish who fought against Nazi invasion were brave men with the truest intent. They lost because psychology does not guarantee victory over a phsycially superior force.
And again, "easy and simple" SD is not going to allow an average Joe to cultivate that level of mental preparedness.




Alright, now for my little rant. SD should be easy and effective in the techniques it utilises. They should rely on gross muscle action and moves that have been shown again and again to work in training and outside of it. Look at the best fighteres around, they utilize fundamentals and basics, not weird arse show tricks or esoteric hoddo-guru junk. Why? Because easy and effective is what works. The old Keep It Simple Stupid adage. However, just because a technique is "easy and effective" or even simplistic, doesn't mean it is going to be effectively mastered in a few short and easy lessons. That's a pipe dream and anyone who has dedicated any substantial part of their life to MA can see it for what it is.

On a side note. Effective self-defense takes time and training. Effective "self-offense" (eg criminal assaults) only take a desire to harm others and a weapon and/or the element of surprise. So please don't get them mixed up.

I think the one issue that I would like to take up here is the continued use of skilled opponents. Now understand most of the people here, know a hell of a lot more about martial arts than I will probably ever dream of, and I have just begun to find the value in true target based systems. So I'm a big time beginner there. However I think the problem that you have is that you just can't get your mind around the fact that, it's not about dueling. It's not about 2 guys facing off, both got there hands up, dancing around trying to find an opening. Those types of scenarios are good when your making a video with your buddies and your kind of fighting but your really not in any danger. Same thing with the mma or ufc. Which you keep bringing up the UfC mixed martial arts arena fighters. I forget which one, but I remember Vitor Belfort when he first fought in a UFC match. There wasn't a whole lot of skill there. He just raised across the ring and started raining blows on people, taking some of them out in 10 seconds. So, that right there throws even some of the trained martial artists right out the window. Because under a viscious, commited attack, they curled up like the proverbially school kid, when the bully comes to take there lunch money. Seemed like it was a pretty simple and effective techinique to me. "Run across the ring and just start hitting the guy and don't stop hitting him till I win." <-----What I imagine was going through his head at the time. So to say that against a skilled opponent simple isn't going to work, that's really ludicrous. The reality is that if you pick up a rock and smash the guys head, and get an injury it was a brilliant technique, because it worked. I think that is your biggest problem. Your getting stuck on a set of unwritten rules. I've had people tell me it was unfair to kick a man in the testicles. I've been told that a true martial artist would never resort to pulling hair because he should be good enough that he doesn't have to. ********, I'm going to do what ever it takes to walk away, and hopefully in a better condition than the jack ass who had to attack me. Simple is better. It's faster, it's easier to learn, and it's easier to retain. Think about it like this. Unless you have a job where math is required everyday, what is the easiest math problem that you can remember and you will probably never forget? 1+1=2 right? Well, if it's more complicated than 1+1=2 or 1+1+1=3 forget about it. It has to be my foot+ his testicules=injury or my foot+ body weight+ his ankle= his broken ankle. That's simple. Ok it's not about dueling. It's about the very second I know in my gut this guy is going to hurt me I have to do 1+1=2 before he can do anything to attack me. Because if I don't, I give him a chance to hurt me, or put us in a dueling scenario where he has a chance to use superior skill. That's why that first UFC Vitor Belfort did so well. He never gave them a chance to fight back. He was on them before they knew what was going on. In real life that's the way it goes down. You may have no warning, it may be a surprised attack. But, if your not injured you can still fight back. That's why I say it should be simple to learn sd, it shouldn' take 40 years to master. Because the bottom line is this. As long as you and I believe that when were attacked we're going to be put in a dueling type situation, where it's about superior skill and training. We can pretend, that we know what were doing. We can pretend like we got it under control, because we've trained. When the reality is far, far worse than that. You aren't going to have a chance to duel. You aren't going to be asked to put up your dukes. Your just going to be attacked. By somebody, that doesn't care if you want to duel, he doesn't care, if you have kids, or a wife, he only cares about doing as much physical damage to you as is possible. Possibly even to the point of death. IF we train to fight our fight, and know nothing about there fight, we are in deep caca!! Because the bad guys play by different rules! Good guys don't tear peoples eyes out, good guys don't crush other peoples throats, or break bones, Right? Good guys don't use knives to kill people. That's right good guys don't do those things, but the bad guys do. They play in a whole different world. They don't work like we do. It's not 1+1=2 it's knife=kill. they skipped a whole step, and went straight to the answer. They didn't have to figure out, you know, knife+ stab vital target=death. They went straight to kill. Yet we have to work on a neutral bow+ grab knife hand+ kick to the knee+hammerlock=your dead.cause you couldn't grab the freaking knife hand if you wanted to! To many rules, to many movements. Like Bruce Lee said here please pay attention at about 6:20 because that is where my real point is leading too,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w63L1Rm-wE

So what does Bruce Lee say about, alot of movements? What does he say to do when somebody grabs your wrist? He says, "Step on his instep, he'll let go." Right? How long does it take to learn to step on a man's instep? It's not complicated, it's a simple solution to a problem. How fast do you think a beginning student would remember that? Probably pretty fast. he might be able to use it that day. Because it's not complicated, and the more he practices that simple movement, the better and faster he's going to get at it. That's the best I can do or say. It's my opinion, whether for right or wrong. Self-defense can be easy to learn, it can be simple, it can be effective, and people are teaching and doing it now. Just depends on what you want.

[MJS]

On the subject of eye shots, groin shots, etc. I cringe when I hear people say that they're fight enders. Its usually these people that assume that those things are magical shots or they really put 100% faith in the 1 shot 1 kill. Personally, I dont do either. This is not to say that 1 shot KOs dont happen, but they're either a result of a) hitting the exact sweet spot or b) they happen after a series of set up shots.

As for them being hard to hit.....nobody can protect every part of their body at all times. Its also possible to target other areas to get to the desired target. I also like to think of it like this. If I can reach someone with a punch, it shouldn't be too hard to open my hand and hit their eyes. Also, if we look at the UFC, we've seen many eye and groin shots, accidental as they may be, they still happen. And if they were not effective, the ref wouldnt jump in and pause the fight until the other guy recovers.

Like I always say, they're simply targets available to me. I'm not going to dismiss them, because someone else can't find a way to target them effectively. If you train to make those hits, vs. someone who doesnt...well, it shouldnt take much thought to know who would have the most success. Those targets can be used to set up other shots.

As for a flick vs. a harder shot....all comes down to what and how you train and what your desired result is. Kenpo has numerous flicks to the eyes and groin. I've worked these shots, and yes, they are effective. Even if that flick to the eyes, does nothing more than cause a flinch or them to be momentarily distracted, thats fine. I got a reaction that I can further take advantage of. :) Now, dont get me wrong, I am also a fan of blasting the groin with a hard kick. Again, it comes back to the desired results that you want. Its no different than a boxer using 2 or 3 shots to set up the big one. If we were to really watch a BJJ match, we'd see guys like Royce and Rickson thinking many moves ahead. They're going after one thing to get a desired response to set up the move that they were really going after.

[Thems Fighting Words]

So to say that against a skilled opponent simple isn't going to work, that's really ludicrous. The reality is that if you pick up a rock and smash the guys head, and get an injury it was a brilliant technique, because it worked. I think that is your biggest problem. Your getting stuck on a set of unwritten rules. I've had people tell me it was unfair to kick a man in the testicles. I've been told that a true martial artist would never resort to pulling hair because he should be good enough that he doesn't have to. ********, I'm going to do what ever it takes to walk away, and hopefully in a better condition than the jack ass who had to attack me. Simple is better. It's faster, it's easier to learn, and it's easier to retain.
I agree one hundred percent that simple is best. But again applying even simple techniques takes a lot of practice and even physical conditioning. An out of shape individual who has practiced some boxing for a few weeks is not going to be as effective as a fit boxer who has trained the same techniques for a couple of years. The fighter in question was not some slob they just picked up of the street. As for true MAists not resorting to dirty techniques, I think that depends wholly on the individual. I've trained with a number of individuals who would use whatever they needed to win; carrying concealed weapons and taking roids. But I've also traiend with MAists who believ in not kicking a man when he's down and only using "minimum force", so I cane see what you're saying.




So what does Bruce Lee say about, alot of movements? What does he say to do when somebody grabs your wrist? He says, "Step on his instep, he'll let go." Right? How long does it take to learn to step on a man's instep? It's not complicated, it's a simple solution to a problem. How fast do you think a beginning student would remember that? Probably pretty fast. he might be able to use it that day. Because it's not complicated, and the more he practices that simple movement, the better and faster he's going to get at it. That's the best I can do or say. It's my opinion, whether for right or wrong. Self-defense can be easy to learn, it can be simple, it can be effective, and people are teaching and doing it now. Just depends on what you want.
Good point. But notice the part I put in bold? It's what I've sadi all along. It depends what level of SD you want. A fight with some drunk who just wants a grope, isn't going to take much. A fight against a skilled opponant or someone high on drugs (and having talked to nurses and paramedics these are scary), is a different matter all together.




On the subject of eye shots, groin shots, etc. I cringe when I hear people say that they're fight enders. Its usually these people that assume that those things are magical shots or they really put 100% faith in the 1 shot 1 kill. Personally, I dont do either. This is not to say that 1 shot KOs dont happen, but they're either a result of a) hitting the exact sweet spot or b) they happen after a series of set up shots.

As for them being hard to hit.....nobody can protect every part of their body at all times. Its also possible to target other areas to get to the desired target. I also like to think of it like this. If I can reach someone with a punch, it shouldn't be too hard to open my hand and hit their eyes. Also, if we look at the UFC, we've seen many eye and groin shots, accidental as they may be, they still happen. And if they were not effective, the ref wouldnt jump in and pause the fight until the other guy recovers.

Like I always say, they're simply targets available to me. I'm not going to dismiss them, because someone else can't find a way to target them effectively. If you train to make those hits, vs. someone who doesnt...well, it shouldnt take much thought to know who would have the most success. Those targets can be used to set up other shots.

As for a flick vs. a harder shot....all comes down to what and how you train and what your desired result is. Kenpo has numerous flicks to the eyes and groin. I've worked these shots, and yes, they are effective. Even if that flick to the eyes, does nothing more than cause a flinch or them to be momentarily distracted, thats fine. I got a reaction that I can further take advantage of. :) Now, dont get me wrong, I am also a fan of blasting the groin with a hard kick. Again, it comes back to the desired results that you want. Its no different than a boxer using 2 or 3 shots to set up the big one. If we were to really watch a BJJ match, we'd see guys like Royce and Rickson thinking many moves ahead. They're going after one thing to get a desired response to set up the move that they were really going after.
Exaclty. Targeting so called weak spots should be part of a larger strategy and not the only "go to" move in one's arsenal. I do come down hard on the eye raking / groin striking mentality. But it's not because I believe them to be inehrently useless but rather the fact that they are often not correctly being utilised.

[Thems Fighting Words]

Sorry for double posting but I thought I'd post links to two stories where groins were struck. The first with an unhappy ending and the second with a happy one. While I personally believe that targeting weak spots is a valid strategical tool, I do not believe that they should be focused upon to the point that other techniques and tactics are lost.

Woman fails to stop rape: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=812120&_cobr=optus

Woman escapes attacker: http://myselfdefenseblog.com/http:/myselfdefenseblog.com/teen-girl-kicks-knife-wielding-attacker-gets-away/

[GBlues]

Sorry for double posting but I thought I'd post links to two stories where groins were struck. The first with an unhappy ending and the second with a happy one. While I personally believe that targeting weak spots is a valid strategical tool, I do not believe that they should be focused upon to the point that other techniques and tactics are lost.

Woman fails to stop rape: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=812120&_cobr=optus

Woman escapes attacker: http://myselfdefenseblog.com/http:/myselfdefenseblog.com/teen-girl-kicks-knife-wielding-attacker-gets-away/

Ok, here's the deal. I have been in a lot of fights in my life time. A lot of fights. Especially growing up going to school. The reality is, 9 times out of 10 a groin shot works. It's not a fight ender, but it's a good place to start if you get it. When I say if you get it, because yeah, you can block it. Hell, you can block any kick or punch. It's when you don't that you get hurt. If you don't target weak points of the anatomy, you get hurt, not injured. That's the difference. There are a lot of guys who can take a shot to the face and it not even slow them down. A shot to a vital target, with your bodyweight behind it, is going to.

You know I used the testicles, the eye gouge, as examples, because everybody can identify with those targets. So let me give you another scenario, just targets alone. I'll use my math formula again and I'll string along some strikes much like a kenpo practitioner would.

Kick to the testicles+spinal reflex= bent over opponent holding groin. Bent over opponent+plus strike to the collarbone=broken collarbone. Strike to the opposite collarbone=2 broken collarbones. my weight+his ankle=broken ankle=opponent laying on the ground in injury. My foot+bodyweight+ his throat= dead attacker.

This guy was done at the first collar bone break. Everything else is above and beyond excessive force. This guy is going to look like he just got hit by a car at 50 mph an hour. Does that qualify as a fight ender?http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

I just wanted to add, that the second story, it does not say that her attacker was kicked in the groin. It is speculated that she did. And in the first one, it worked for her, yeah she got punched in the face, but he didn't try to rape after that now did he. So, in reality what you have with these stories is groin shot 1 possible groin shot 1 and groin shots suck 0. LOL! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Daniel Sullivan]

The biggest advantage of groin shots, throat strikes, and eye gouges is surprise. If you can get the shot, the attacker may be surprised enough to pause, allowing you time to either follow up with an attack that will cause injury or to effect escape.

The surprise factor, in my opinion, has to do with the fact that attackers generally attack those they see as easy prey. When they suffer pain in the process, this sometimes causes them to rethink the vulnerability of their prey.

A serial rapist, a seasoned mugger, or a gangbanger will probably not be as easily surprised like this, as they are accostomed to the idea that their prey may fight back.

Daniel

[MJS]

I think something else to keep in mind is.....are the folks who're doing these hits to the groin and eyes just stopping, after 1 shot, in hopes that it was the magic KO.......or do they keep going? Of course, as I've said, 1 shot may be all it takes, but if it doesn't then you have nothing more than a pissed off person. If I'm going to go thru the process to knee someone or kick someone in the groin, its going to be followed up with a few more shots. :)

[GBlues]

I think something else to keep in mind is.....are the folks who're doing these hits to the groin and eyes just stopping, after 1 shot, in hopes that it was the magic KO.......or do they keep going? Of course, as I've said, 1 shot may be all it takes, but if it doesn't then you have nothing more than a pissed off person. If I'm going to go thru the process to knee someone or kick someone in the groin, its going to be followed up with a few more shots. :)

Well, that is the crux though isn't it. Instictivelly almost everybody that has ever kicked somebody in the testicles or even just poked somebody in the eye stops. WHy? Because you feel bad, he's making awful noises, you can see the pain on his face, and you don't really want to cause that person more pain. You really want to ask, "Hey, pal you gonna be alright?" but again in a real situation you have to keep adding more pain and injuries till you feel comfortable that you can walk or run away. Once you start you can't stop, because like MJS said, your going have a really pissed off attacker on your hands if you do. We need to be like a guy eating pringles. Once you pop you just cant stop! LOL!http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Daniel Sullivan]

My self defense philosophy, both for myself and what I teach my students is to seek escape and to practive awarness and avoidance and to not go looking for trouble.

Realistically, the mindset of the majority of martial arts practitioners is not one of escalation. We spend our entire lives, beginning with nursury school, being taught that escalating a conflict is bad. Fighting back against the bully is recommended against, and now, if someone is attacked in school and fights back, both students are suspended.

On top of that, most of us have religious backgrounds which teach against escalation of conflict.

I am not saying whether this is good or bad. I am saying that we must take into account both our own mindset and that of our students and train them accordingly. Few instructors have the training or the time with their students to tear down their mental outlook and build it up into that of a soldier, so if you do not have that background or the time needed to accomplish it, do not attempt it.

Students should learn to do more than just take one shot and hope that it is a fight ender. But they should not be taught to prolong the fight. If escape is an option, they should seek that avenue.

Obviously, circumstances which prevent retreat or escape require one to do whatever is necessary to survive the encounter. In this case, students should learn what they need to end the fight quickly and efficiently in some way other than escape.

Daniel

[BLACK LION]

I have alot of reading to do before I can post another rant but from what I have read I would like to flip the attention off of the "arena" or the "street" for that matter and shift it to the prison yard... or correctional facility dormroom etc. Lets turn our attention to a city of sociopaths whos experience comes not from years of training but single nights of lying in wait to ambush and annihilite his victims.... Lets focus on the pure EVIL that inherently lies here and approach it from that standpoint....

[MJS]

Well, that is the crux though isn't it. Instictivelly almost everybody that has ever kicked somebody in the testicles or even just poked somebody in the eye stops. WHy? Because you feel bad, he's making awful noises, you can see the pain on his face, and you don't really want to cause that person more pain. You really want to ask, "Hey, pal you gonna be alright?" but again in a real situation you have to keep adding more pain and injuries till you feel comfortable that you can walk or run away. Once you start you can't stop, because like MJS said, your going have a really pissed off attacker on your hands if you do. We need to be like a guy eating pringles. Once you pop you just cant stop! LOL!http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

LOL, yes, I like your analogy! :) I may be going out on a limb saying this, but I gotta say it anyways. Taking what you said in this post a bit further, I have to wonder if the 'before' and 'after' of a situation is ever taught in martial arts schools. I mean think about it....there're countless threads on here, such as this, and usually the subject of trying to defuse the situation (the before) comes up, as well as what may happen to you (the after) after the confrontation is over.

I say this because of the reactions and comments that I have got from people in the past, when talking about 'the brutal' side of the arts. Sure, its easy to sit and say that we'd knee someone in the balls, but can we actually seperate ourselves from what you said above? I don't know, I guess its just hard to understand why someone would say those things, ie: "Are you ok?" considering the fact that this person has zero remorse or concern for you, and was trying to cause you some serious bodily injuries.

I suppose what I said above is beyond the physical techniques. I mean, kinda hard to physically train that stuff, due to the fact that in training, I don't set out to nail my partner in the groin 4 times, so I can get the 'feeling' of what his reaction will be. I'd start running short on partners if I did that. LOL. However, I think that talking about it, making the students know what could happen, is a start. All comes down to the mindset I suppose. :)

[MJS]

I have alot of reading to do before I can post another rant but from what I have read I would like to flip the attention off of the "arena" or the "street" for that matter and shift it to the prison yard... or correctional facility dormroom etc. Lets turn our attention to a city of sociopaths whos experience comes not from years of training but single nights of lying in wait to ambush and annihilite his victims.... Lets focus on the pure EVIL that inherently lies here and approach it from that standpoint....

Thats a good point. It may not be that those people are better with physical skills per se, but their desire to inflict harm and not think twice about it, is important to look at. I mean, in the above case, you're dealing with people who are the polar opposite of what Dan just described in his post. They have no morals, no values, they don't think that fighting is wrong, etc., so when faced with those people, we need to be able to block out the "fighting is wrong" mindset.

[BLACK LION]

What underlies here is the fact that most instructors cannot effectively institute the mindset and abilities necessary to affectuate injury on a bonafide sociopath... Not everyone is wired that way. Not everyone can be wired that way. Not eveyone wants to be or cares to be.
Some dont see its worth and some wont see it...
Some believe it is a golden fruit thats only obtainable by devoting decades to training and subordination before one can even breathe in its direction let alone take a bite.... essentially untraining whats alreday inherent at birth...
The essence of what it takes to protect and preserve is inherently simple.... Like a sword or a gun... However it takes refinement of skill thru proper training to become a sniper or a swordsman... even though its essential composition is or should be simple....

I believe that what most who "dabble" in this facet of protection miss is the fact violence is a part of everday life and its based on actuality... its not just a certain day of training or time slot devoted to that part if "self defense" .... its not something you schedule into what you do... and try to juggle it with everything else...

It should by nature be included in all you do...and all you train.
Not with this technique or that technique or this list of 50 or that list of 100... the skill is refined thru an intimacy with the basic principles underlying evertyhing... the humanity...the physics... the anatomy and physiology... the psychology... the science that encompasses it as a whole...
Its not about finding out what works by sparring or by rollin on the mat or whatever... its done by slow and methodically application of basic principles until it becomes ingrained in the gross motor function and ultimately part of your personna...

Everyone has brought up good points... including the fact that allot of instructors water down "targeting" into something along the lines of slumber party horseplay....
not to say that a flick or smack or pinch isnt useful because it is... and may be the only thing viable at the moment to give you a few extra ticks... However the driving force behind this sort of training should be a sheer desire to cause destruction... and the ability to get in there like a surgeon and get to work on thier meat...

The injuring part is easy....The hardest thing to do is to train to injure someone without actually doing it...

There was a good quote in one of the training sequences in "The Hunted"... "The killing part is easy... the hardest part is learning how to shut it off" .....

with that being said...what underlies this type of training is simple... and by refining it to sheer principles it sheds a great deal of weight... each individual takes his/her own path how easy they obtain thier goal is up to them... is it an easy path... any true warrior will tell you no it is not... it takes a certain level of acceptance and conviction to don the vestplate of justice and stand before evil... it takes integrity and above all else I believe it is a calling... can anyone learn yes... just like anyone can try out for BUDS... but not eveyone can be a SEAL... not everyone can be a warrior... honestly.... a warrior

[still learning]

Hello, ONE DAY? ...A lot of martial art classes wil forcus more attention on the Verbal side of Self-defence!

and learning self-defence could be made even simple....proper languages and respect for others.

This verbal self-defence happens eveyday and everywhere in Amercia...all the time? ....Why isn't this taught in most school rooms and in Martial arts?

Simple is best.....Aloha

[GBlues]

LOL, yes, I like your analogy! :) I may be going out on a limb saying this, but I gotta say it anyways. Taking what you said in this post a bit further, I have to wonder if the 'before' and 'after' of a situation is ever taught in martial arts schools. I mean think about it....there're countless threads on here, such as this, and usually the subject of trying to defuse the situation (the before) comes up, as well as what may happen to you (the after) after the confrontation is over.

I say this because of the reactions and comments that I have got from people in the past, when talking about 'the brutal' side of the arts. Sure, its easy to sit and say that we'd knee someone in the balls, but can we actually seperate ourselves from what you said above? I don't know, I guess its just hard to understand why someone would say those things, ie: "Are you ok?" considering the fact that this person has zero remorse or concern for you, and was trying to cause you some serious bodily injuries.

I suppose what I said above is beyond the physical techniques. I mean, kinda hard to physically train that stuff, due to the fact that in training, I don't set out to nail my partner in the groin 4 times, so I can get the 'feeling' of what his reaction will be. I'd start running short on partners if I did that. LOL. However, I think that talking about it, making the students know what could happen, is a start. All comes down to the mindset I suppose. :)


Yeah MJS I think the before and afters are covered in a lot of schools. One big thing about training I think is sound. When your practicing your partner should be trying to simulate to the best of his ability the reaction, your gonna get. So, if your practicing an eye gouge, and one that is designed to remove the eye from it's socket. At some point your partner should be screaming at the top of his lungs like you are really doing it. That will desensitize you to some of that, "Hey, pal you alright?". It should be that way with every technique. I know that before I lost my job, I was attending to-shindo, and sometimes I'd get pretty loud as an attacker in the training. You know, "I'll kill you!!!!" and wrap my hands around there neck. I try to be as realistic as possible. Try to give that feel of violence to my partner. The problem is if your not used to that, it's a very new experience to someone that has never been in a fight, or violent situation. I'd try to make the proper types of noises that I would think you would make having those techniques done to me if it was in real life. The more sensory out put that you can give, and get in training, it's gonna make you a whole lot better. The reactions are your gauge for success, if your not getting that reaction in a real situation, you didn't do it right, or you didn't hit, so you've got to do it again, but do it right. you know what I mean?

As far as some of the other posters and the de-escalation, yeah that is an important part of training. There is another side to that coin though also, sometimes it's not better to get into your hands up read position and try to create some space and talk this guy down. Sometimes it's not going to work. So you have to be the first one to move. Action is faster than reaction, once you put your mindset into the self-defense mode, your reactionary. So that de-escalation, could actually in some situations put you in a very bad spot. You have to listen to that gut instinct, or for women your womans intuition. Because there are times when it's better to just get it on. I think some schools and instructors make to big of a deal about de-escalation. That to much emphasis on it, and not enough on, "Look if you know in your heart, this guy just isn't going to let you walk away, then you have to do what you feel is necassary and it may mean turning the tables and becoming the aggressor in some situations. It may mean that you don't wait for him to throw the first punch, you may have to make sure that you go home in one piece." Ok, those gut feelings are more accurate than some people want to give it credit for. I listen to my gut feeling almost every single time. I don't question it. I've been out with my girlfriend at the highschool parking lot just hanging out in my truck, and got that gut feeling. I started the truck, and split just as fast as I could. Probably nothing would have happened, but I don't care. I wasn't there to find out if something was going to either. She got the same feeling right after I told her, "Were LEAVING!" So, you know, that has to be addressed also.

Another thing is the mindset, like what BlackLion is wanting to talk about. I think the only way to describe is, if you stepped outside your door and saw a young kid being mauled by a big dog. You wouldn't even think twice about blowing that dogs head clean off with a gun, if that's what you needed to do to save that kids life. WHy? Because we have been conditioned to believe that human life is worth more than an animals. Now, take it one step further, it's your dog, that is mauling that young kid. I know for myself, it's the same story, dead dog. I can't let that dog hurt that kid. Now, your typical a-social person, is coming out of there house and see there dog, mauling this kid, he might shoot the dog, but it's going to bother him more, that he killed his dog, than if that kid had died. He may not even shoot the damned dog. So he doesn't value human life. He actually thinks that your life is worth less than a dogs. Now, the mauling dog, is the attacker, and your the kid. You really give a rats patooti if you kill that rabid dog? Probably not. You aren't even gonna lose sleep over it. ANd that is the mindset of these people in the correctional facilities, that kill so easily. They don't care about your life, it's worth nothing. So, when confronted by one of these individuals you need to be just as callous in your attack on that person. See them as a dog, and you won't want to ask, "Hey pal you alright?" Well, I hope this all came out the way that I intended it too. LOL!

[BLACK LION]

Negotiation is the only "verbal" alternative to physical agression or egression . It is still one sided in the fact that they are essentially being commanded what to do in order to prevent them from being injured. Even here they are the ones who compromise after they compute the orders they were just dictated.
Give them the terms and let them decide thier fate....
Just becuase you are verbalizing doesnt mean you are socializing... keep that in mind... you are not there to reason or compromise... you are negotiating for compliance so you do not have to resort to agressive force to get it....

then again most if not all negotiation happens before the bomb timer starts its countdown(basically a social setting that could turn violent)... once the countdown begins(imminent danger)... the only option is to physically diffuse or disconnect it before it explodes... becuase you cannot talk a bomb out of exploding once the timer starts...

[BLACK LION]

Thats a good point. It may not be that those people are better with physical skills per se, but their desire to inflict harm and not think twice about it, is important to look at. I mean, in the above case, you're dealing with people who are the polar opposite of what Dan just described in his post. They have no morals, no values, they don't think that fighting is wrong, etc., so when faced with those people, we need to be able to block out the "fighting is wrong" mindset.

This is why its paramount to be a true "professional" when it comes to this training and the path associated with it.
Navy SEALS and Marine force recon and Army delta are all highly trained opratives and essentially "killing machines" on the battle field... but when on leave or liberty they do not take any of that with them(for the most part)...They are polite and professional but they can kill everything in sight.... they could have just killed 15 people on thier last tour but you wouldnt know it becuase they dont wear it on thier chest as an adornment or token of accomplishment....

I really think it boils down to the integrity of the training as a whole... you cannot water this stuff down and expect it to hold its weight... you cannot be contradictory by bringing up moral-social-or legal issues while trying to ingrain a martial-killer mindset and personna. You cannot train to injure or kill while dangling a moral-legal carrot in the face...it does not work that way... the whole laboratory needs to be all about violence and all about you being the only one doing it... never them.. they get nothing accept a dirt nap... thats all you owe them.

it should be the goal of everyone getting training or training others in this field to be a professional operator... or operate professionally...
live a normal respectable life but have instant access to the "kill switch" when needed...if ever

[Thems Fighting Words]

I think most of here agree that attacking vital spots can be effective but only if properly applied. Also in the case of some attackers who need more "incentive" to stop, relying purely on one shots is foolish.

So back to the original topic. Who has found an effective SD curriculum that is both easy and fast to learn? I have yet to find one which I guess explains my general disbelief in quick and fast to learn SD.

[Bruno@MT]

I suggest instead getting a sharp and strong four to six inch letter opener and learning to use it. Always legal to carry outside of a plane.

You've obviously never been to the UK, or at least not in the last couple of years. :)
Carrying a six inch letter opener in your jacket is going to cause you a lot of problems if the cops can make a reasonable assumption that you are intending to use it as a weapon.

[GBlues]

I think most of here agree that attacking vital spots can be effective but only if properly applied. Also in the case of some attackers who need more "incentive" to stop, relying purely on one shots is foolish.

So back to the original topic. Who has found an effective SD curriculum that is both easy and fast to learn? I have yet to find one which I guess explains my general disbelief in quick and fast to learn SD.

Yeah I don't think anyone here is relying on ones shot stop here. As far as the simple, and easy to learn, I would recommend the guys at Target Focus Training if you live in and around the San Diego area. If you don't live in San Diego then I would suggest trying to find a reality based instructor whose focus is on, vital targets.

[seasoned]

I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned. It is not how many techniques you know, but how many we own. A lot of people are taken up with knowledge of hundreds of moves, while the aggressor just sucker punches you. There is a lot to consider in self defense, but it is knowing a little very well, rather then a lot, mediocre. When in doubt, just kiss it.
With all do respect, keep it simple stupid. Not my saying, but wise words.

[Daniel Sullivan]

It is rare for me to invoke Bruce Lee, but in keeping with Seasoned's comment, which I entirely agree with, Lee once said that it is not the man who knows 10,000 kicks that he fears, but the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.

The idea being that it is not how many techniques one knows, but how many one knows well and has internalized and can use instinctively.

Daniel

[Drac]

WOW..Lots of GREAT posts here..I've learned countless techniques in the last 30 years, and there are maybe 6 that I used constantly.But I nned that exposure to find those favorites.Yes, ya can get a lot of SD techniques at the white belt level in many disciplines, but will it be effective against a drugged up or drunk aggressor or too someone with a higher threshold of pain...

I dislike the whole Verbal Judo or Tounge-Fu..I have seen too many altercations where the victim spent too much time attempting to defuse a situation and wasn't watching the other persons body language..If they want your watch, wallet or money, GIVE IT TO THEM...

As the a few of the others said..Buy a gun, get your CCW permit and THEN keep a very experienced and very excpensive crimminal trial lawyer on retainer..Cause the first time you use it the POS will take you to court and sue you..

[BLACK LION]

The "base" I emphasize now so much in everything from striking to breaking to throwing I learned 25 years ago when I was a white belt.

Whats strange is that it never made true sense to me until I ventured into the side asocial of injuries . I looked at it as static once I learned a little "footwork". I thought dancing around my opponent was practical.
I then perfected my "footwork" for over a decade only to discard it and revert back to my "base".

I neve saw the simplicity in things until I based them on all the applicable principles.

the principles are the simplicity. They are what we retain first and what we retain last...

[still learning]

WOW..Lots of GREAT posts here..I've learned countless techniques in the last 30 years, and there are maybe 6 that I used constantly.But I nned that exposure to find those favorites.Yes, ya can get a lot of SD techniques at the white belt level in many disciplines, but will it be effective against a drugged up or drunk aggressor or too someone with a higher threshold of pain...

I dislike the whole Verbal Judo or Tounge-Fu..I have seen too many altercations where the victim spent too much time attempting to defuse a situation and wasn't watching the other persons body language..If they want your watch, wallet or money, GIVE IT TO THEM...

As the a few of the others said..Buy a gun, get your CCW permit and THEN keep a very experienced and very excpensive crimminal trial lawyer on retainer..Cause the first time you use it the POS will take you to court and sue you..

Hello, Just wondering how many (Verbal Judo/correct verbal words) that did work and both sides walk away without the violence!

The key in martial arts is Awareness and Avoidance and NO violence...this is where the true Masters learn there best skills.

Sure we must always prepare for the worst!

I am surprise you do not see the use of teaching/ learning proper verbal skills for defusion ... you dislike verbal skills for preventions......

When your partner or kids or anyone gets angry at you? ....you dislike verbal useage? ....or for any confrontations?

NO wonder our countries and wars never will end? ....Aloha

PS: I know? i need verbal training too! ...still learning

[GBlues]

Hello, Just wondering how many (Verbal Judo/correct verbal words) that did work and both sides walk away without the violence!

The key in martial arts is Awareness and Avoidance and NO violence...this is where the true Masters learn there best skills.

Sure we must always prepare for the worst!

I am surprise you do not see the use of teaching/ learning proper verbal skills for defusion ... you dislike verbal skills for preventions......

When your partner or kids or anyone gets angry at you? ....you dislike verbal useage? ....or for any confrontations?

NO wonder our countries and wars never will end? ....Aloha

PS: I know? i need verbal training too! ...still learning

I think the point that Drac is getting at is, that yeah it's great to be able to defuse a situation. However, there comes a point when you need to just shut the hell up and get it on. Because while your flapping your gums he's stabbing the **** out of you. LIke Tuko from, "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" said, "If your going to shoot, shoot, don't talk." Said after he killed the guy that had spent way to much time flapping his gums. Verbal defusion is nice, and I've used it, to defuse situations, as have I'm sure many of the martial artists on this forum, but there is a time to talk and time not too. you have to be aware and no when that time is. If a guy pulls a knife on you, there shouldn't be any talking. Because there shouldn't be any doubt in your mind what that guy wants. You know what that is??? To just ask you out on a date friday night, but he gets nervous and having a knife in his hands makes him feel better. WRONGO!!!!! He wants to stab you with it!!! Well, he might want your money, but if you don't have the amount that he thinks you should have, he still may stab you with it!!! If a guy has a knife pulled on you, it shouldn't prompt you to talk, it should piss you off. Really!

The same applies in some non-added weapons situations. TIme and place, time and place. Sometimes defusion is the way to go, and sometimes, it's just destroy, ( if you can you know), it's a judgement call we all have to make. We ALL get scared, we all get the knee shakes. Any man that says differently is either a liar, or ain't never been in an altercation. You know, talking makes us feel better about the situation, because we are scared. You have to control yourself, and at least pretend like your not scared. The time spent talking could better be spent looking for other alternatives, running away, or deciding what strategy your going to use if you can't run. Cause the reality is, unless he's a total psychopath he's probably just as scared as you are.

[MJS]

Yeah MJS I think the before and afters are covered in a lot of schools. One big thing about training I think is sound. When your practicing your partner should be trying to simulate to the best of his ability the reaction, your gonna get. So, if your practicing an eye gouge, and one that is designed to remove the eye from it's socket. At some point your partner should be screaming at the top of his lungs like you are really doing it. That will desensitize you to some of that, "Hey, pal you alright?". It should be that way with every technique. I know that before I lost my job, I was attending to-shindo, and sometimes I'd get pretty loud as an attacker in the training. You know, "I'll kill you!!!!" and wrap my hands around there neck. I try to be as realistic as possible. Try to give that feel of violence to my partner. The problem is if your not used to that, it's a very new experience to someone that has never been in a fight, or violent situation. I'd try to make the proper types of noises that I would think you would make having those techniques done to me if it was in real life. The more sensory out put that you can give, and get in training, it's gonna make you a whole lot better. The reactions are your gauge for success, if your not getting that reaction in a real situation, you didn't do it right, or you didn't hit, so you've got to do it again, but do it right. you know what I mean?

As far as some of the other posters and the de-escalation, yeah that is an important part of training. There is another side to that coin though also, sometimes it's not better to get into your hands up read position and try to create some space and talk this guy down. Sometimes it's not going to work. So you have to be the first one to move. Action is faster than reaction, once you put your mindset into the self-defense mode, your reactionary. So that de-escalation, could actually in some situations put you in a very bad spot. You have to listen to that gut instinct, or for women your womans intuition. Because there are times when it's better to just get it on. I think some schools and instructors make to big of a deal about de-escalation. That to much emphasis on it, and not enough on, "Look if you know in your heart, this guy just isn't going to let you walk away, then you have to do what you feel is necassary and it may mean turning the tables and becoming the aggressor in some situations. It may mean that you don't wait for him to throw the first punch, you may have to make sure that you go home in one piece." Ok, those gut feelings are more accurate than some people want to give it credit for. I listen to my gut feeling almost every single time. I don't question it. I've been out with my girlfriend at the highschool parking lot just hanging out in my truck, and got that gut feeling. I started the truck, and split just as fast as I could. Probably nothing would have happened, but I don't care. I wasn't there to find out if something was going to either. She got the same feeling right after I told her, "Were LEAVING!" So, you know, that has to be addressed also.

Another thing is the mindset, like what BlackLion is wanting to talk about. I think the only way to describe is, if you stepped outside your door and saw a young kid being mauled by a big dog. You wouldn't even think twice about blowing that dogs head clean off with a gun, if that's what you needed to do to save that kids life. WHy? Because we have been conditioned to believe that human life is worth more than an animals. Now, take it one step further, it's your dog, that is mauling that young kid. I know for myself, it's the same story, dead dog. I can't let that dog hurt that kid. Now, your typical a-social person, is coming out of there house and see there dog, mauling this kid, he might shoot the dog, but it's going to bother him more, that he killed his dog, than if that kid had died. He may not even shoot the damned dog. So he doesn't value human life. He actually thinks that your life is worth less than a dogs. Now, the mauling dog, is the attacker, and your the kid. You really give a rats patooti if you kill that rabid dog? Probably not. You aren't even gonna lose sleep over it. ANd that is the mindset of these people in the correctional facilities, that kill so easily. They don't care about your life, it's worth nothing. So, when confronted by one of these individuals you need to be just as callous in your attack on that person. See them as a dog, and you won't want to ask, "Hey pal you alright?" Well, I hope this all came out the way that I intended it too. LOL!

Good points. As far as whether or not the things I and BL mentioned in our posts....I think its safe to say that its taught in some schools, but I'd be willing to bet there are more that dont teach it, than ones that do. Some people are so set in their ways, that any sort of scenario training or training outside of their box, is frowned upon.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello, Just wondering how many (Verbal Judo/correct verbal words) that did work and both sides walk away without the violence!

The key in martial arts is Awareness and Avoidance and NO violence...this is where the true Masters learn there best skills.

Sure we must always prepare for the worst!

I am surprise you do not see the use of teaching/ learning proper verbal skills for defusion ... you dislike verbal skills for preventions......

When your partner or kids or anyone gets angry at you? ....you dislike verbal useage? ....or for any confrontations?

NO wonder our countries and wars never will end? ....Aloha

PS: I know? i need verbal training too! ...still learning
While I agree with your post to an extent, but I think that you are misreading Drac's post.

There are people intent on harming others. Verbal skills are useless against them. They intend to hurt, harm, or even kill their intended victims.

No amount of verbal skills would have been effective against Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gasey, or Osama Bin Laden.

As for war, you may recall that verbal skills and giving up the wallet were used with Hitler. But Hitler was intent on world domination in some fashion, and was likely insane.

Verbal skills are excellent for dealing with heated tempers due to a traffic altercation or out of hand party guests. They are good when dealing with someone who is having second thoughts about their course of action. They are best with people who have a logical reason for their anger and who can be reasoned with.

When dealing with mentally ill, sociapaths or other individuals intent upon harming you, they are useless.

Also, given that in a good number cases, a robber will kill the victim after the victim gives up the goods, do you really want to take that chance?

Perhaps you do. I would prefer not to. Violent people only understand the language of violence. If you wish to address them in a language of peace, better hope they have turned on their universal translator.

Daniel

[still learning]

Hello, OK....this one agrees there will be people and times when "Verbal Judo" maynot work....no such thing as it works 100% of the time.

The point is? ....Verbal Judo is use everyday....preventions and to de-escalted situtions from getting worst....and many situtions today could have be prevented with proper "Verbal" training.

The book "Gift of Fear" ...mentions approx 26,000 people die each year because of their "EGO"'s and NO proper training in Verbal preventions. ...stupid fights and arguments!

True story: Two very old couples standing in line for a Concert...one bumps accidentally...one "verbal abuse" the other...one pushes the other one down who hit's his and head on the wall while falling and dies....
One gets buried...other goes to jail....Imagine what lives could be save with proper "verbal training?"

Hilter was great with his "Verbal" words....A bad person...who knew the power of words.....

What works better the "Verbal langauge or the fists"....?

If one method do not work? ...sometimes reactions will!

Aloha,

[BLACK LION]

The only place socializing or de-escalation or diffusion is prevelant is in "avoiodable violence". This is a situation that starts socially and could end up violent like a wrong look or a grab of the girlfriends booty or a lost parking spot etc... you cannot confuse a social situation with an asocial one and vice versa... you cannot approach an asocial situation with social reasoning or remedy or you will end up a statistic of a violent crime... on the other hand you shouldnt approach a social situation with asocial reason and remedy or you will face moral-legal reprocussions....

A man with a gun to your face or a knife to your childs throat thats demanding money is ony using a social feint in order to "butter" you up before they attack...they just may not want to dig in your pockets after they put 2 in your head...or they get off on seeing the fear or hearing the pleading and crying... That is not a social situation and should not be regarded or treated as such. A man approaching you at full speed with a crowbar after you cut him off and decided to get out and tongue wrestle is most liekly not interested in what you have to say... at that point you would be pleading your case instead of diffusing anything.... you should have never pulled over and exited the vehicle...


There is plenty of room for training "awareness" and "de-escalation"... there is plenty of time to massage the social aspect... in a social setting a fight could last minutes if not hours...
I an asocial situation the combat will only last seconds... there is no time for social baggage here...
I have found that training in an asocial environment makes dealing with social situations seem like childs play... you can literally laugh most things off and continue your day but at the same time the would be predators understand exactly whats going on when they get that blank detached look and a slight downward nod...

If protection and preservation is the goal of training then it should be focused around an asocial environment where using ultimate force is king.
you learn to switch it on and switch it off at will. Save the social training and tactics for the bulk of your life that you spend in a social environment... that time spent trainng to protect and preserve needs to be immersed in an asocial ocean that is void of any social means or measures....
there is no reasoning with the monster...you must become the monster in order to destroy it...

far too often people refer to bringing a tongue to a knife or gunfight... but this is impractical and not based on actuality

[BLACK LION]

Hello, OK....this one agrees there will be people and times when "Verbal Judo" maynot work....no such thing as it works 100% of the time.

The point is? ....Verbal Judo is use everyday....preventions and to de-escalted situtions from getting worst....and many situtions today could have be prevented with proper "Verbal" training. Most if not all of our life is spent socializing or in a social setting and in this time awareness and de-escalation should be learned or absorbed as a bi-product of various "fights" or "arguments" one might find themselves in from birth to adolesence... you cannot train a persons integrity or thier ability to show repsect and courtesy...
How can you train awareness if once has never been caught off guard or ambushed or snuck up on or followed etc...

The book "Gift of Fear" ...mentions approx 26,000 people die each year because of their "EGO"'s and NO proper training in Verbal preventions. ...stupid fights and arguments! Avoidable violence is what this is and its a tool that must be trained in a social setting only which is the bulk of our time spent daily anyway.

True story: Two very old couples standing in line for a Concert...one bumps accidentally...one "verbal abuse" the other...one pushes the other one down who hit's his and head on the wall while falling and dies....
One gets buried...other goes to jail....Imagine what lives could be save with proper "verbal training?" This is clearly a matter of courtesy and integrity and clearly social...training for something like that has no place in a protection/preservation environment... you cant bring moral-social-legal luggage into an asocial based environment... you are essentiall attempting to combat an oil fire with hot water.

Hilter was great with his "Verbal" words....A bad person...who knew the power of words.....Hitler was a sociopath in a uniform. He didnt just dictate with words... he destroyed and annihilated with physical force

What works better the "Verbal langauge or the fists"....? Socializing is great in a social setting... but you cannot bargain with violence... you cannot massage terror or calamity

If one method do not work? ...sometimes reactions will! Social measures work for social situations.... Asocial measures work for asocial situations... its that simple... neither compliment or apply to one another...

Aloha,

Turning the other cheek is a great tactic in a social setting and I am an advocate of it... its shows superior integrity and intellect as well as character.

I an asocal setting the only turning of the cheek that will be done is to break the threats necks in two...

train to socialize on your social time... train to brutalize on your asocial time... simple

[still learning]

Hello, One thing for sure? ....Man kind has major behavior problems.

Not all can be solve with "words" , just that prevention is better than cure.

Once a fight starts? ....someone is going to get hurt or killed!

The behavior of fight or flee? ...is ingrain in us.....something that is pass down generatons to generatons....

Can we ever solve the bad behavior problems in man kind?

or must we learn to protect ourselves....NOT everyone wants to train and train for years....

Many want to able to learn simple and effective techniques...easy to remember...works in most cases!

Is there simple ways to learn to defend one self? ....Off course!

one example: run away....easy to teach...easy to learn how...easy for some to run...some gotta walk away...cause they NO can run! ....this also means... it can be difficult for some people...yet anyone can learn this!

Aloha

[Daniel Sullivan]

Contrary to popular belief, there are places that teach quick and simple self defense. As we have all observed, practical SD to get someone up and running and able to defend themselves against an assailant does not require years of training, though that can be helpful (depending upon how you train).

According to your profile, you are a fairly advanced shotokan and kempo practitioner. Perhaps you could put together a quick and simple curriculum specifically for SD, as both have techniques that are very valuable for SD.

I know that if I were teaching strictly self defense with a TKD base, my lessons would be very different.

Daniel

[Thems Fighting Words]

Contrary to popular belief, there are places that teach quick and simple self defense. As we have all observed, practical SD to get someone up and running and able to defend themselves against an assailant does not require years of training, though that can be helpful (depending upon how you train).

Getting up and away isn't easy if the guy whose got you is skilled at keeping you down. Also running away isn't always an option. Sometimes you have to stay and beat the attacker senseless. As I've said often enough; the viability of simple and quick to learn SD is incumbent on who and what you're defending yourself against.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Getting up and away isn't easy if the guy whose got you is skilled at keeping you down. Also running away isn't always an option. Sometimes you have to stay and beat the attacker senseless. As I've said often enough; the viability of simple and quick to learn SD is incumbent on who and what you're defending yourself against.
Though I agree with you, I am not sure what part of my post you are responding to.

I did not say a word about getting up and away or running away in the post that you quoted.

When I said, "up and running," I was referring to bringing a student to a point where they would have practical SD skills, which is generally takes less time to do than to teach a student the entire kyu grade curriculum.

Daniel

[Thems Fighting Words]

Though I agree with you, I am not sure what part of my post you are responding to.

I did not say a word about getting up and away or running away in the post that you quoted.

When I said, "up and running," I was referring to bringing a student to a point where they would have practical SD skills, which is generally takes less time to do than to teach a student the entire kyu grade curriculum.

Daniel

I must have misread your quote.