BANDO

any ranking structure or is it just like muay thai no ranks?

I understand that Dr. Gyi uses ranks for his Bando system--if I recall correctly (and I'm not at all sure that I do), there are nine sub-systems and one muct choose three to specialize in for black belt, then more are added. Dr. Gyi himself is 9th dan I believe.

There are of course other Bando traditions than Dr. Gyi's.

have you seen the other traditions of bando?

what are the nine subsystems?

Phil Dunlap of Kachin Bando is another lineage. he's based in Mahwah NJ. i was fortunate enough to attend 3 seminars (which he offered free of charge to anyone) of Phil's and would recommend him to anyone interested in bando. he is a good guy and is promoting a little known art. http://www.thaing.net

i've heard a Master Tai, IIRC he has a site, just don't have the URL handy.

there is at least one more lineage in the US but i've not heard the name.

Mr. Dunlap is a member here (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=1300).

yes but is phil dunlap burmese???

Originally posted by moromoro
yes but is phil dunlap burmese???


I do not know, yet I do know I am not Filipino.

Does that mean I have no knowledge? I guess that would be up to the opinion of those that know me. In my opnion I have some knowledge of FMA, even though I am not Filipino. So, what does being Burmese have to do with the know the art of Bando?

it was just a question

if he is a GM of bando ,

where did he study it??

how long was he training for with his master??

also the british where in burma for a long time he might very well be british

.In my opnion I have some knowledge of FMA, even though I am not Filipino.

every one is entitled to their opinions
how are you rich

the question was more about his lineage more than anything

Got to train (and chat with) Dr. Gyi at the WMAA Camp (www.wmarnis.com) this past weekend--great stuff! Knife and Yoga sessions.

moromoro,

i don't have specifics, just recall Phil giving a little of his background. his g'pa went through china and burma and somehow learned from kachins.

his g'pa taught him.

email him.

afspd@hotmail.com

Moro

I am not Burmese or Kachin for that matter. Hy is right I trained under my grandfather in the US, he lived in the Kachin state prior to and during WW2 and for a little while after. He was Irish but grew up in China his father wasa doctor it is a long story and has to do with English/Irish polotics. I have been to Burma a number of times but to fight not to train. The term I use is lineage holder and as much as I might try to achieve greatness I am lineage holder by default ie; last in line left.

In the Kachin tradition there is no ranking structure.

great to hear from you Phil

yes a friend of mine is also Burmese/ british decent.

i had a few questions,

is bando much like Muay Thai, it seems to have a more structured system (where as MT has no rankings just training)

also do you trian with weapons in your system????

thanks

terry

Phil is so modest, he did not remember that in addition to being the lineage holder of the Kachin arts, he is also the prettiest man alive :-)

as anyone ever heard of a burmese version of kendo, called dha do?

The dha is the indiginous sword of Burma and Thailand, sometimes called the Darb by the Thais. Almost all the weapon based arts from these lands and some parts of Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam use this weapon, but they call both the weapon and the arts different names. My guess is that "Dha Do" is just an attempt to insert the dha into the Japanese nomenclature, using the Do as a "way of" and insert any weapon before; voila, instant weapon art. The most common arts in the west that include the dha are Bando and Krabi Krabong. Consequently, the dha is not a weapon that is very well suited for use in an Kendo-like art. The blade is designed for hacking motions and not the sturdiest of weapons. Most of the targets that it was used against had less armor than what I would think is common in the times and areas where a katana was used.

Did someone delete the stuff I wrote in here?

Did someone delete the stuff I wrote in here?

Here's a quick reference. . .I won't re-write any of the stuff.

http://www.thaing.net/lethwei.htm

Dha do would have to be a western creation not Burmese, Oulobo you guys use a different Dha than we do.

http://www.thaing.net/ndao1o.gif

The Kachin call it an Nhtu pronounced in-too and it is a cross beetween an axe and a sword the top of the blade is 3" min from tip to tip

By the way our new Logo

http://www.thaing.net/logod.jpg

This is an example of a traditional styled dha, although this example is more made for tourist consumption. The dha is a common blade throughout most of indochina along with a few other weapons that are generally associated, by collectors, with the Naga tribes, although I am sure thier use isn't exclusive to that particular tribe, the "Naga Dao" and the "Naga Ax".

Here are examples of what are commonly called the Naga Dao and Naga Axe.

The top is a more indicative of the Kachin Nhtu/Dha the handle is the telltale sign the true naga Naga Dao tends to have a longer handle than the kachin variant.

Yhe Dha normally associated with burma is more of the lowland dwelling peoples

http://www.thaing.net/kachin.gif

Burmese Dha come in a wide variety depending on region the tip shapes themselves really do come in a wide variety. I've seen flat, spear-shaped, spatulate (rounded), scalloped, and "pointy". As these are, primarily, slashing weapons, tip geometry doesn't generally affect use. Flat tips are often seen on Kachin dha from Northern Burma, and are closely related to the Sword Dao of the Naga hilltribes. The flat tip is well suited to use as both a tool and weapon. There is a strong relationship between the Naga and Chingpaw in Burma.
Here are some nice tip shots:

http://bwr.hyperchat.com/newchat/u/uriel/~bwr/dhatip001.jpg

Interesting posting on my old stomping grounds at the Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum.

"Dha" is a Burmese term that simply means "blade." We in the West use it to refer to a variety of sword-and dagger-length weapons that are used by a variety of people in continental Southeast Asia (which means present-day Burma/Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam). The use of what we call a dha also extends into the extreme northeast of India, in the Assam and Naga hills, and into southern China in what is today Yunnan Province.

Swords: A sword dha, called a dha lwe in Burmese and a darb or daab in Thai, is any sword with a single-edged blade that generally widens progressively toward the tip, but not more than to a length/tip width ratio of perhaps about 5/1 or 6/1 (blades with very wide tips are called dha ma - choppers - in Burma). The cut-off is sort of subjective, at least for me. Spines are rounded, flat, peaked or various combinations. Rarely there is a groove in the spine. False edges are not uncommon. Blades are often engraved or decorated with koftgari or inlay, on the flat and spine, some very elaborately. They are often of laminated or inserted-edge construction, and often have a hardened edge. Tangs are usually very short, and "blind," i.e., inserted into the handle and held by pressure or adhesive. I have never seen a pinned tang.

The tip can be upswept, angled (forward or reverse), square, round, convex, spear-shaped or "sheep's foot" (where the spine curves down toward the edge). There are specific names for each of these tips in Thai (see the Glossary page at The Dha Research Index (http://www.members.cox.net/thedhapage)).

Handles are almost always of a round cross section, and can vary in length from about hand-width to about equal in length with the blade. A pommel may or may not be present, and is either spherical, a sort of flattened cone, top-shaped or lotus-shaped (there is a variation of this that looks sort of like a conch shell). Sometimes it is just a simple cap on the handle. I have never seen a disk-shaped pommel, though some round ones approach a lense shape (wide axis perpendicular to the handle). There is generally no guard, though the ferrule often flares toward the blade; some Thai darb have a small tsuba-style guard, and some "montagnard" dha have a diamond-shaped guard that is almost more of a spacer as it barely exceeds the diameter of the handle. "Village" dha often have neither pommel nor ferrule.

Scabbards are generally wood, often with metal bands, or partial or complete metal sheathing. "Village" dha tend to have braided cord or rattan bands. Scabbards usually start with a round cross-section equal in diameter with the ferrule, and progressively transition to a flat cross-section, either square-ended, rounded or more rarely up-swept. In Burmese dha, the scabbard is usually suspended from a cord baldric hung from one shoulder; in Thailand the scabbard can be hung from the shoulder, across the back, or as a crossed pair on the back (this might be the case in other parts of SEA, but I just don't know).

Daggers: Daggers are called dha hmyaung in Burma (not to be confused with a simple utility knife, which is called a dha mauk). I don't know what they are called in Thailand and other parts of SEA. They basically resemble miniature dha lwe, with a single edge and either upswept of spear-shaped tip. Like the swords they can have laminated or inserted edge construction, and hardened edges. Handles are sized to fit the hand, and in style follow those found in swords. Scabbards again are smaller versions of those of sword-length dha, though there is a style of dagger scabbard that has a round cross-section. There is another type of knife used in SEA that has a down-ward curved blade, similar to a yatagan or piha ketta, which we Westerners call a "priest knife" because, surprise, it is used by priests."


Also of note to anyone interested in dhas, is the Dha Research Project. It can be found at http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/IntroductionFrame1Main_Page.htm
This is a site dedicated to examining and classifying the different designs and types of dhas and related weapons, and the project includes the cultures and tribes that most commonly use the different types. A very enlightening read for anyone interested in the nitty gritty of designation, classification and collection.

Phil, you might be interested in the pictures section of the research site. It has a few photos of Kachin tribesmen in a parade. The majority are carrying the nhtu you mention, but it looks like some are carrying the more common slender long hilted type of dha, but with the flattened tip.

OULobo

Great site !!

I know what I will be doing with my free time.


This is just personal theory from observation but the more "civilized" and closer to the "valley people" the area the Kachin lived in the more the blade had a ceromonial appearence.
In other words around Myitkyina and the lower third of the state where there was heavy interaction with the Burman and Shan the blade evolved to be an ornament.

The Naga, Kachin and Wa all used similar heavy hacking blades originally.

Many of the ethnic groups in myanmar had their own languages and seperate culture.
Burman- Kachin wording for example
Thaing= Hkyen
Naban= Gamu hkyen
Lethwei= Htwi hkyen

I understand that Dr. Gyi uses ranks for his Bando system--if I recall correctly (and I'm not at all sure that I do), there are nine sub-systems and one muct choose three to specialize in for black belt, then more are added. Dr. Gyi himself is 9th dan I believe.

There are of course other Bando traditions than Dr. Gyi's.

Well, when I was comming up in the ABA, we had to learn from three different areas, but not animals, which is where the nine sub sytems come from. From no belt to white, green, brown, then black, I had to learn:
1. all the required empty hands forms and drills
2. learn at least two different weapons (the Kukri was off limits until brown belt)
3.and fight at every level (belt) before being allowed to continue on to the next belt.

At black, we were expected to sample the animal subsytems until we knew which we wanted to focus on, and then commit to that style. Each animal contains its own series of drills, forms, weapons, etc. Some of us (me) never could commit, but continued to study weapons, kickboxing, various animal drills and techniques, and even start learning other martial arts.

EDIT: Unless you mean subsystems as in Thiang, Bama Lethway, Banshay etc? But I was never taught that there were nine "classifications" of this nature. We studied the sport, the art and the weapons, and the combat.

As for the nine animals somebody asked about, they are:
Tiger, Eagle, Cobra, Viper, Boar, Bull, Python, Scorpion, and Panther.