When training women should they recieve special treatment ?

[suicide]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

[grydth]

Some arts - notably Aikido and Tai Chi - make exceptions for students, and not specifically women. It may be "no fall" classes for anyone with a bad back; it may be accepting a different step in a form because of a knee injury.

Other arts are, 'by the book'....... here's how it is done, if you cannot do it that way, there's the door. A woman I work with developed physical problems and was politely but firmly expelled even though she was 4th Dan.

You must consider whether you can do justice to yourself, your art and your prospective students. If you do not feel you can meet these 3 tests, you should consider not accepting them as students and refer them elsewhere.

[Bruno@MT]

Check with them what they expect from training (contact, falling, sparring, ...) to make sure that everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet, so to speak.

Also, put something on paper, describing the fact that you are teaching them MA, and what that entails. Then add a clause that specifies that they take the risk, and will not sue in case of injury or other bad things happening. Then have them sign it.

Check if they are insured. If they aren't, either try to arrange for one, or have them sign a waiver to take the risk off your shoulders.

Also (I have some experience with women's self defense classes) if they don't know you yet, you want to build up some level of trust. With this I mean that they should start to trust you to do them no harm. Once that is established, then you can intensify things to the level that they can take.

[MJS]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}


What are they looking to get out of the training? In other words, is this a short or long term thing? Either way, IMO, I think that the training should be the same as what you would teach to others? Why? Because chances are, if they're attacked, it'll be by a male, not another woman. Get them into the proper mindset, have them not only work with each other, but with other male students, and get them used to contact.

Of course, if someone has some limitations, ie: injuries, etc, then make the exception for that.

[suicide]

thanks for the feedback ...

[Jenna]

I do not get what "special treatment" you were imagining you would need to provide these poor, poor women? Certainly we reserve basic teaching technique and treatment for beginners of EITHER sex, though why would you differentiate for women? If they are interested in your art or your course then you assume they are aware that you are not demonstrating flower arranging or dress alteration, excuse my facetiousness :) Treat the women as "participants" and remove the gender-worry from your teaching and make the whole exercise a lot less stressful and awkward for every including yourself :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

[Omar B]

I'm not a believer in special treatment for anyone unless they are physically disabled. women can do everything men can right, train right along side us. After all, modifying the training changes the nature of the result of said training.

[Twin Fist]

I make NO changes to my training based on the gender of the student.

never have
never will

[searcher]

I am with Jenna in wondering what type of special treatment you are referring to?

I train women and girls in my classes and they don't get special treatment nor do they want special treatement. To suggest that they need special treatement is, IMO, a slap in their face. Unless they have some ailment, they should be treated just like any other student.

[Aniela13]

My instructors do a very intense workout session at the beginning of every class...the (gender unrelated) "special treatment" there is just that, if you're physically unable to keep up, you modify the workout to something you can do. Beyond that, there are a few kicks that have caused me hip pain; one of my instructors has been working with me to improve them, but has said that (provided I'm doing it correctly) if the pain continues then the technique will be altered.

But if these women are healthy, the only "treatment" I'd give them is, as was stated above, to build a level of trust with them. Knowing that my instructors respect me and watch out for me enables me to learn as much from them as they are able to teach me.

~Ani

[Rich Parsons]

What are they looking to get out of the training? In other words, is this a short or long term thing? Either way, IMO, I think that the training should be the same as what you would teach to others? Why? Because chances are, if they're attacked, it'll be by a male, not another woman. Get them into the proper mindset, have them not only work with each other, but with other male students, and get them used to contact.

Of course, if someone has some limitations, ie: injuries, etc, then make the exception for that.


I do not get what "special treatment" you were imagining you would need to provide these poor, poor women? Certainly we reserve basic teaching technique and treatment for beginners of EITHER sex, though why would you differentiate for women? If they are interested in your art or your course then you assume they are aware that you are not demonstrating flower arranging or dress alteration, excuse my facetiousness :) Treat the women as "participants" and remove the gender-worry from your teaching and make the whole exercise a lot less stressful and awkward for every including yourself :)
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


Mike and Jenna do make very valid points.

Although, I would like to express the other side of the discussion for consideration.

On average males see more conflict than females and are less likely to walk away the first time they get a bruise. So special consideration this may need to be thought about. A guy who walks in with a bruise on his arm it thought to have played hard in sports. A woman who walks in with a bruise is thought to be attacked or assaulted. Are the perceptions right or wrong? I am not going to make that call. I just bring it out so that people realize that it is there, and it maybe a consideration for the student.

Also, as women are more likely to be abused than men, from the reported statistics, they may have a psychological injury that may need to be considered. Bring up the trust of the class and the instructor and then also allow them slowly get over these issues.


Now, can a male have these same problems? Yes.

I speak on averages and broad statistics, so one can be aware and adjust accordingly.


Now of course, these women could be like one woman that approached me. She wanted to have a class to protect herself. There were a case of someone picking women up at local shopping malls and taking them to another city (* hour north *) and raping and beating them and then letting them go.

She did not want a firearm for protection.

She did not want learn how to use a knife to protect herself.

She wanted to take a class get a certificate and let the certificate protect her.

Needless to say, there was nothing I could do to help her.


Good Luck

[tellner]

You are probably borrowing trouble here. Unless she already has plenty of martial arts experience she'll accept the dojo environment you present as normal. If you assume that she will be different and be trouble because she's a woman - what you're pretty obviously expecting - that's what will happen. If you just follow your normal practice and take up issues as they arise it should be fine.

[astrobiologist]

A student from another school was training with me one day. He mentioned how he never gets to be too physical since the class he usually attends has a lot of women and he was afraid he may hurt them. I told him, though, that taking it easy on women because our culture has told you "a man can't hit a woman" and "women must be treated with special attention" is not fair to the women themselves. They are in a martial arts class for a reason. They want to learn self defense as well.

We all choose our training knowing full well that injury and being uncomfortable are part of it. We as instructors are bound to ensure a certain level of safety for our students, but we also want to know that our students are safe and are getting a good martial arts education.


There are a few things to keep in mind:

-due to the large number of nerve endings in female breasts, we must be careful not to strike the breasts too hard. A strike may happen once in a while when sparring, but it is avoided. The same thing goes for groin strikes for men and women. Many of us men enjoy strengthening this area, but for women it can be difficult to do so. At the more advanced ranks, if a woman chooses to allow for harder strikes to the chest then that will be her choice and not a requirement.

-also, again due to the breasts, with weapons training, it is easier and usually more comfortable for women to bring a staff or other weapon back to the lower rib cage (below the serratus anterior) while training, whereas many of us men will prefer to bring the weapon back directly to the serratus anterior (the "boxer" muscles, beside of the pectoralis). When done slowly this is not a problem, but if done quickly, especially with a heavy staff, this consideration can be made.

-When I teach grappling classes, I prefer to have women grappling with other women. It is not necessary for the more advanced ranks, however it is usually more comfortable for the lower ranking female students.

-With the last point, when training in drills, techniques, or bunkai, I prefer to have women working with the more mature men if possible. No offense to young guys, but it can become an unnecessary awkward moment to have a 16 or 17 yr old guy working with a fully developed woman.


Other than these things, there really is no need to give women special treatment. Most of the women I have worked with preferred to train hard.

[seasoned]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}
If their just looking for some self defense moves, then I definitely would teach them differently. But whether male or female, makes no difference. I would leave kata out of it, and stick to easy to learn techniques. If it's a structured class their looking for then they would be taught the same as everyone else, from the bottom up.

[Lisa]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

So, Suicide, I gotta tell ya that reading the title of this thread kinda got my hackles up, I bet it did the other women on the board as well. And I am guessing you have no women in your classes and never have and can I go further and say you have never trained with a woman either? Because if you did you would have a better handle on what to do. So I gotta ask...why is that? What exactly is it you teach and have learned that has never had a woman cross your path?

If I am right in my assumptions then perhaps it would be better to kindly turn your social worker friend down or offer her an alternative. Although I am a firm believer in not treating women any differently, if you have never trained with one or taught one before then perhaps your first trial should not be with a friend and coworker.

[shihansmurf]

If you respect these people enough to pass on your knowledge then there is no reason to disrespect them by watering it down to grant them "special treatment". A student is a student. Provide the best training to each one that you are able, engage them fairly, and any issues will work themselves out.


Mark

[tellner]

Just to second what Lisa said...

If you've gotten to instructor rank without a female teacher, a female student or female classmates you've been inhabiting a very strange corner of the martial arts world indeed. If you're serious about teaching you might profit from some serious exposure to an environment which has significant numbers of female martial arts students. There are plenty of Kenpo schools in your part of the world where that is the case.

The tone of your article is bound to set women's teeth on edge. As you can see, it already has. My previous advice stands: You seem to be asking "How are these strange creatures going to be problems?" Treat them like any other student - fairly, without favoritism or prejudice - and you won't have any real problems. Treat them otherwise, and it's going to be a bad time all around.

Yes, women have boobs. Past childhood they've had them for a while and are used to the idea. They kind of carry them around. Sports bras for most classes and chest protectors for sparring mostly take care of the sensitivity and uncomfortable bouncing issues. If you need more advice ask a female black belt in your style.

Close contact between men and women in training? It's something everyone needs to get used to. It's more of a problem for the young of both sexes than the older ones. When I've taught women's self defense classes I always thanked the gods for older women, especially the grandmothers. The younger women looked up to them. And they were refreshingly nonchalant and lacking in useless shyness. A direct quote as one grabbed a 20 year old wrestler/football player for groundwork drills: "Don't worry, son. I raised four boys. You don't have anything I haven't diapered a thousand times."

In any case, if your friends are interested in self protection they need to get used to physical contact with men. And it does the men good to treat the women in the class as just more training partners. Some women aren't quite at that point. For them I recommend women's self defense classes. Once they've gotten to a certain point of physical confidence they tend not to have problems with a mixed class.


Here are three inviolable rules if you're going to enter the later twentieth let alone twenty first century:
If a guy is taking the opportunity to cop a feel, or if he's pelvis grinding during grappling or making rude comments of a sexual nature your absolute responsibility as an instructor is to toss him so hard he bounces. No second chances.
If one of your senior students uses his position to pressure female students for dates or sex throw him so hard he bounces twice. No exceptions no matter how long you've known him or how good he is.
If you use your position to do that sort of thing you are unfit to teach and deserve to be drummed out of your organization and get the ass-whipping of your life - the sort involving broken bones and permanent disability.

[astrobiologist]

Just to second what Lisa said...

If you've gotten to instructor rank without a female teacher, a female student or female classmates you've been inhabiting a very strange corner of the martial arts world indeed. If you're serious about teaching you might profit from some serious exposure to an environment which has significant numbers of female martial arts students. There are plenty of Kenpo schools in your part of the world where that is the case.

The tone of your article is bound to set women's teeth on edge. As you can see, it already has. My previous advice stands: You seem to be asking "How are these strange creatures going to be problems?" Treat them like any other student - fairly, without favoritism or prejudice - and you won't have any real problems. Treat them otherwise, and it's going to be a bad time all around.

Yes, women have boobs. Past childhood they've had them for a while and are used to the idea. They kind of carry them around. Sports bras for most classes and chest protectors for sparring mostly take care of the sensitivity and uncomfortable bouncing issues. If you need more advice ask a female black belt in your style.

Close contact between men and women in training? It's something everyone needs to get used to. It's more of a problem for the young of both sexes than the older ones. When I've taught women's self defense classes I always thanked the gods for older women, especially the grandmothers. The younger women looked up to them. And they were refreshingly nonchalant and lacking in useless shyness. A direct quote as one grabbed a 20 year old wrestler/football player for groundwork drills: "Don't worry, son. I raised four boys. You don't have anything I haven't diapered a thousand times."

In any case, if your friends are interested in self protection they need to get used to physical contact with men. And it does the men good to treat the women in the class as just more training partners. Some women aren't quite at that point. For them I recommend women's self defense classes. Once they've gotten to a certain point of physical confidence they tend not to have problems with a mixed class.



Here are three inviolable rules if you're going to enter the later twentieth let alone twenty first century:
If a guy is taking the opportunity to cop a feel, or if he's pelvis grinding during grappling or making rude comments of a sexual nature your absolute responsibility as an instructor is to toss him so hard he bounces. No second chances.
If one of your senior students uses his position to pressure female students for dates or sex throw him so hard he bounces twice. No exceptions no matter how long you've known him or how good he is.
If you use your position to do that sort of thing you are unfit to teach and deserve to be drummed out of your organization and get the ass-whipping of your life - the sort involving broken bones and permanent disability.


If you were responding to my earlier post, I meant no disrespect to women in the martial arts. Indeed my favorite martial artist is a woman and she's laying behind me while I type this.

I was simply sharing some considerations I have come across while training with and teaching women in response to the original post. Thank you for your response.

[crushing]

It's interesting how this thread went from "treat 'em the same" to "treat 'em the same, except watch for" to "I recommend women's self defense classes".

It doesn't appear to have been so cut and dry after an initial negative reaction to the OP.

Special: unique or specific to a person or thing or category
Treatment: the management of someone or something

There have been several excellent responses with suggestions regarding special treatment, which once again shows what a great community we have here at MT.

[tellner]

ab, I wasn't bagging on you at all and apologize if that seemed to be the case. The remarks were general and not directed at your post.

[astrobiologist]

ab, I wasn't bagging on you at all and apologize if that seemed to be the case. The remarks were general and not directed at your post.

Good to know :)

No worries. One thing we both definitely mentioned was younger students. I can see how younger females could have a problem as well, but I've only personally come across situations with young males. In these situations, it was less that the guys were trying to "cop a feel" and more that they were so fearfully shy and afraid that themselves touching a boob would be taken wrong. This would make for an awkward situation and neither student would get a good workout in because of it.

[LuckyKBoxer]

I would not say that Women need special treatment or attention, as much as I would say that every single type of person is going to have their own limitations, and strengths, and dangers inherent to their sex, size, and other attributes.
Small people are going to have to understand that they will have to depend on something other then strength when executing a technique against another person, especially a bigger person.
Males and Females both face certain dangers, obviously the dangers are going to be skewed a little differently for each person, and a great instructor is going to make sure their students are aware of the biggest dangers facing them, and make sure that the student is able to accept those situations, and have some idea on how far they are willing to go to defend themselves.
It does not do a student much good to teach them ina generic manner, and not go over scenarios, or worries, or issues they may face.
Every single person is different, and will require a slightly different approach to get the most out of their training possible.

[IcemanSK]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

Since you're unsure what sort of game plan it would take to train these people who are so different from you I think you need to ask yourself whether or not you're up to the task. There's no shame in saying "no, I can't teach you, but I can recommend another place."

[chinto]

If their just looking for some self defense moves, then I definitely would teach them differently. But whether male or female, makes no difference. I would leave kata out of it, and stick to easy to learn techniques. If it's a structured class their looking for then they would be taught the same as everyone else, from the bottom up.


I agree

[BLACK LION]

Yes... in the sense that it is imperative that thier only focus is injuring the threat. Women are seldom attacked by other women and when I say attacked, I mean rape or murder or something relative. A woman facing a male threat must always assume her life and well being is in danger and must execute ferocious violence on any targets she can access with the sheer goal of injuring that person(s) and shutting them down.
I always stress the eyes-throat-groin first becuase no matter what the threats disposition is...these parts cannot be conditioned to tolerate impact. Were not talking about some shaolin sage that sleeps on spears...were talking about willie the pervert that is tired of peeping and wants some hardcore action...this time he has a hunting knife and some duct tape.

Women need to model success in the most harsh conditions from the start. That starts with injury and continues with injury until satisfied that the threat no longer exists...

I am speaking merely froma survival standpoint and not social or competitive

[Drachonius117]

I'm not teacher but our dojo has had its fair share of women martial artists, and in all my experience with them in the dojo is they are there to train just as hard (sometimes harder) the than the guys in our school.

Heck my sensei tends to show them the little extra "OOMPH" needed to take a big 200lb guy down fast and hard. Because usually if women are assaulted its by the bigger men.

And also concerning sparring with them, I usually fight better(I hit them no harder than other people) and faster just because the women in our school have the mindset of I need to go at this guy with all I've got! lol They're tougher to fight than the men lol

[Stac3y]

Yes. You should open doors for them and pay for their drinks. :drinkbeer

[Daniel Sullivan]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}
To answer your question, I must ask: train them in what? and special treatment in what regard?

Women have different builds than men. Their body mass is distributed differently and their musculature is different. Women have a lower center of gravity, generally their strength is more lower body while men are more upper body. Women are generally not as tall or as heavy as men.

So depending on what skill set you are training them in, those physiological differences can be an advantage, a challenge, or neither.

Generally, a lady's build gives her an advantage in throwing arts due to the lower center of gravity. Also, I have found that with man and a woman with the same level of conditioning and the same rough height, the lady has stronger kicks and the gent generally has stronger punches. In WTF taekwondo sparring, that is an advantage. In western boxing, not so much.

Having said that, I've seen guys who kick like mules and cannot punch through a time card and women who cannot kick above their ankles but punch like they have a pair of sledgehammers for hands.

A lot also depends on the person's previous athletic experience. A lady who is in good physical shape, who exercises regularly will be in a different place than a lady who does not. Same with guys, but you are asking about training women.

Rather than concerning yourself with special treatment for gender, look at the complete picture of your student's attributes. Their gender is less important than their overall conditioning. If the students are winded just walking from the car to dojo, you need to address that in your training regimen regardless of their gender. If your students are all blackbelts from a sport TKD school and can do vertical side kicks but no practical SD, then you'll want to focus on SD.

With any student, regardless of gender, they need to be trained to take into account their body type and inherent strengths and weaknesses, as everyone has both.

If you are doing belt tests, gear the tests towards proficiency in the technique, not according to gender, age, or any other factor.

Best wishes to you and your students.

Daniel

[KELLYG]

OP I think that is a great compliment that these lady's value your opinion enough that they are willing to take lessons from you that could possibly save there lives. That is very cool.

One would have to consider the reasons that they are being attacked may be different from a male A) because they appear weaker or an easier target. B) because they appear to be easy to control. C) or as a sexual target.

I take my self defenses seriously for the above reasons. All self defenses are not created equal and this really does not have anything to do with the sex of the defender. If you are instructing a self defense and you see that, while it is being practiced that it would not work as designed it can be modified the meet the needs of the individual student. I have worked on many different self defense tactics/scenarios and some I would use in the real world and some I would not, due to my on personal strengths. But it is nice that I have had some exposure to all of them.

[Himura Kenshin]

Yes... in the sense that it is imperative that thier only focus is injuring the threat. Women are seldom attacked by other women

Actually that's not true. Women have been known to attack other women in the same way men attack other men. There are some "alpha females" that like to show they're tough by beating the crap out of some other girl. It's a common gang initiation. Also, let's not forget about that video posted on youtube of those teenage girls beating some poor girl half to death just for the fun of it.


and when I say attacked, I mean rape or murder or something relative. A woman facing a male threat must always assume her life and well being is in danger and must execute ferocious violence on any targets she can access with the sheer goal of injuring that person(s) and shutting them down.

Always assume? So if a guy at a bar gets a little too "touchy-feely" a woman should gouge his eyes out and crush his throat and sack? That's a quick way to go to prision. Just like with men, there are variying degrees of violence against women. What of domestic abuse where a husband slaps around his wife. He's not intending to kill her just humilate her, so she should be able to defend herself through martial training without resulting to cold blodded killing. The goal should be to escape from danger and there are times when that may require a person to permanently injure an attacker, but it is erronious to assume this shuld always be the case.


I always stress the eyes-throat-groin first becuase no matter what the threats disposition is...these parts cannot be conditioned to tolerate impact.

But they can be defended by almost anyone. Eyes, throat, and groins are targets everyone knows they should defend, so tactics must be used to open up these areas, plus I posted in another thread a situation were gouging a person's eyes didn't work. Never assume a person will go down because you've torn out their eyes, curshed their balls, and destroyed their throat. Can they die from these injuries, yes. Is it always immediate, no. And again these don't address non-life threatening attacks.


Unless someone has a special circumstance such as a physical disability, a learning disability, or perhaps been traumatized by some kind of sexual or violent encounter, no adult should be treated different than any other adult within the dojo regardless of sex, sexual orientation..yadda, yadda, yadda.

[BLACK LION]

are we talking survival or social interaction.... you are speaking of social I am speaking of survival... on that level, I disagree with your entire post.

bottom line.... train them to dance or train them to destroy.... you cannot have both... regardless of what you think...

and no... the eyes-throat and groin are not some universally defended areas that everyone knows about... they are vaible targets and in fact weak spots on evey man and animal.

I bet you didnt know that if you poke a pit bull in the bung hole with a stick his jaws will unlock... imagine that

[Himura Kenshin]

...ok...

"the eyes-throat and groin are not some universally defended areas that everyone knows about"

Are you saying that people aren't aware of their eyes, throat and groin? If I tried to kick you in the nuts or poke you in the yes, would you NOT try to stop me from doing that?

Your posts are convincing me more and more that you have very little knowledge about combat and the nature of fighting.

What does poking a pitbull in the ass have to do with anything anyway?

[Kacey]

To answer your question, I must ask: train them in what? and special treatment in what regard?

Women have different builds than men. Their body mass is distributed differently and their musculature is different. Women have a lower center of gravity, generally their strength is more lower body while men are more upper body. Women are generally not as tall or as heavy as men.

So depending on what skill set you are training them in, those physiological differences can be an advantage, a challenge, or neither.

Generally, a lady's build gives her an advantage in throwing arts due to the lower center of gravity. Also, I have found that with man and a woman with the same level of conditioning and the same rough height, the lady has stronger kicks and the gent generally has stronger punches. In WTF taekwondo sparring, that is an advantage. In western boxing, not so much.

Having said that, I've seen guys who kick like mules and cannot punch through a time card and women who cannot kick above their ankles but punch like they have a pair of sledgehammers for hands.

A lot also depends on the person's previous athletic experience. A lady who is in good physical shape, who exercises regularly will be in a different place than a lady who does not. Same with guys, but you are asking about training women.

Rather than concerning yourself with special treatment for gender, look at the complete picture of your student's attributes. Their gender is less important than their overall conditioning. If the students are winded just walking from the car to dojo, you need to address that in your training regimen regardless of their gender. If your students are all blackbelts from a sport TKD school and can do vertical side kicks but no practical SD, then you'll want to focus on SD.

With any student, regardless of gender, they need to be trained to take into account their body type and inherent strengths and weaknesses, as everyone has both.

If you are doing belt tests, gear the tests towards proficiency in the technique, not according to gender, age, or any other factor.

Best wishes to you and your students.

Daniel

Very nicely stated - and pretty much what I was planning to say as well, but I see no reason to restate what you said so clearly.

Do I treat women differently than men? Only in the sense that I treat each student as an individual, with his/her own experiences, needs, strengths, and difficulties. Anything else would be unfair to the students.

[Aikicomp]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

Firstly, to treat females different than males would be a disservice to them and an embarrasment and a disgrace to you as a teacher.

Training is training, obviously if there are other considerations (physical, phsycological, ect.) then I would work around that and give them other options to achieve the same end result.

The women I've trained....... I've trained and was harder on them (including my wife) if anything and they were better for it. They were also harder on themselves than I ever was.........at times.

Michael

[Drac]

You do your female charges a dis-service if you treat them differently..

[Flea]

I don't know about any of the other ladies at MT, but when I go to class I always insist on an immaculately wrapped gift basket brimming with tampons and Hershey bars ...

:dramaqueen:

[shihansmurf]

I bet you didnt know that if you poke a pit bull in the bung hole with a stick his jaws will unlock... imagine that


Himura Kenshin
What does poking a pitbull in the ass have to do with anything anyway?

This has got to be the weirdest exchange I've yet to read on martialtalk. I have to admit that I've never considered the deadly "poke the pitbull in the ass with a stick" defense. Handy, I imagine, if one were teaching Michael Vick.

:)

I am forced to wonder at the experimentation that led to the discovery of this technique.

"Well, Bob, I've been thinking. For tonights' class were going to work on self defens againg suprise pit bull maulings."

"Bwaa!!"

"Oh I know its a suprise, but I thought it would be a good idea to be prepared for it, you know, just in case. Now since you've healed up from our orangutang training, I think were ready to begin."

"Okay......"

"Now, here's what you do. When it attack you it'll probably lock its jaws and thrash around. I want you to try repeated head strikes. Got it? Good. Okay I'm letting Fluffy out of the cage!"

"AAUGHH!!! GOD IT HURTS!!! HELP!! PLEASE!!!!"

"Oh hell, that didn't work, try pulling its ears!!"

"OW!OW!OW!OW!"

"Oh go, I'm gonna get sued again. I gotta do something. I know, I'll poke it in the ass with a stick. Most things hate that."

"moan....whimper...bleed...."

"Wow..it worked..and as soon as this pit bull stops chasing me, I'll have a new technique to add to the schools curriclum. Sweet!"


Mark

[KELLYG]

Shihansmurf,

Thanks for the post I laughed till I cried!!!

[Daniel Sullivan]

and no... the eyes-throat and groin are not some universally defended areas that everyone knows about...
Actually, they are. Everyone in grade school knows how to sock another kid in the eye, jam another kid in the throat and kick another kid in the groin.

These are viable targets, but they are also small targets. The groin is the easiest to go after because most people are unskilled in guarding below the belt. Most everyone instinctively tries to keep things away from their head and neck area.


they are vaible targets and in fact weak spots on evey man and animal.

I bet you didnt know that if you poke a pit bull in the bung hole with a stick his jaws will unlock... imagine that
Believe it or not, pit bull attacks have happened enough in Maryland that Prince Georges County has actually outlawed the ownership of pitbulls. Needless to say, I never thought of doing this to a dog latched onto me, but if it ever happens, I will have another option to try if gouging out its eyes or tearing off its testicles (if male) fail to make the point.

Someone asked how this technique was figured out, and I would presume that someone figured it out back when training pitbulls to fight and wanted a means of disengaging the dog from whatever person or other dog it had clamped down on. I would not know, as I have never been involved in training a dog in that manner.

Having said that, I would imagine that forceful insertion of a stick into the rectum of any creature would cause it to stop what it was doing.

Daniel

[BLACK LION]

...ok...

"the eyes-throat and groin are not some universally defended areas that everyone knows about"

Are you saying that people aren't aware of their eyes, throat and groin? If I tried to kick you in the nuts or poke you in the yes, would you NOT try to stop me from doing that?It doesnt matter how aware you are. That does not negate the fact that it is a weakness that can be injured and will provide a spinal reflex. You cannot condidtion you eyeballs to take punishment like you can the rest of the body...same with the throat, groin, inner ear and anus....
Yes one can defend against a kick to the groin or a finger jab to the eye but a full bore charge into the target area with my entire body weight will be much more difficult to address than simply trying to block or defend.... you continuosly compare social to non social... were talking prison versus private school...

Your posts are convincing me more and more that you have very little knowledge about combat and the nature of fighting. I can say the same thing but I have more respect. Its clear to me that you do not understand the difference between combat and combat sports.

What does poking a pitbull in the ass have to do with anything anyway?Its a clear example that no matter how determined and capable the beast... they cannot control spinal reflex. Unless they have no central nervous system, which is impossible.

I am coming from the far extreme which is what I train for... comparing that to a social encounter makes zero sense....

[blindsage]

Actually I practice Iron Anus Qigong.

[Guardian]

I will answer the OP question. Most of the women I trained with would be insulted, so my answer is no.

I bet you didnt know that if you poke a pit bull in the bung hole with a stick his jaws will unlock... imagine that

What??? Where do people come up with this stuff LOL LMBO. Jaws locking is a myth and the rest of this is just plain silly.

[Guardian]

I will answer the OP question. Most of the women I trained with would be insulted, so my answer is no.

I bet you didnt know that if you poke a pit bull in the bung hole with a stick his jaws will unlock... imagine that

What??? Where do people come up with this stuff LOL LMBO. Jaws locking is a myth and the rest of this is just plain silly.

My apologies, the thumbs down icon is suppose to be behind the last word "Silly". Still getting use to how these icons work.:)

[BLACK LION]

Actually that's not true. Women have been known to attack other women in the same way men attack other men. There are some "alpha females" that like to show they're tough by beating the crap out of some other girl. It's a common gang initiation. Also, let's not forget about that video posted on youtube of those teenage girls beating some poor girl half to death just for the fun of it.
I know all about "alpha females".. I live in university heights in san diego which is a primarily lesbian part of the city.
Tell me when the last time a female raped and murdered another or kidnapped and molested etc. There are "women predators" but the numbers pale in comparison to male ones. As you can see, I am not coming from a social standpoint but an asocial one... girls jumping another like you see in the internet clips is a social situattion... a woman being raped at gunpoint and the murdered is asocial ... train for one or the other but hope the latter never happens if you train to combat "socially"...



Always assume? So if a guy at a bar gets a little too "touchy-feely" a woman should gouge his eyes out and crush his throat and sack? That's a quick way to go to prision. No... but here again you are giving me a social scenario that is devoid of violence or asocial behavior. At the same time, being trained to take them out completely affords a level of competence that give you the tools to diffues the situation without compromising anything. Just like with men, there are variying degrees of violence against women. What of domestic abuse where a husband slaps around his wife. He's not intending to kill her just humilate her, so she should be able to defend herself through martial training without resulting to cold blodded killing. Here is another social referral... if a woman is being slapped around at home then she needs to leave her husband not break down in a deep stance and roundhouse him in the stomach to "defend" herself... The goal should be to escape from danger and there are times when that may require a person to permanently injure an attacker, but it is erronious to assume this shuld always be the case. If you assume it is always the case which it rarely is, then you have ample capability and understanding on what to do and when to do it. There is a time and place for everyhting and violence is rarely the answer. However if you only train at a certain capacity then when the shyt really hits the fan you will be lost in what seems like chaos but is actually really simple.


But they can be defended by almost anyone. Eyes, throat, and groins are targets everyone knows they should defend, so tactics must be used to open up these areas, plus I posted in another thread a situation were gouging a person's eyes didn't work. Never assume a person will go down because you've torn out their eyes, curshed their balls, and destroyed their throat. Can they die from these injuries, yes. Is it always immediate, no. And again these don't address non-life threatening attacks. I do not think you understand both the cause and effect state and injuries alltogether... I never spewed out a recipe for one shot one kill...
If you tear out an eye...they just lost a sensory organ and thier central nervous reacts to that leaving them vulnerable to injury elsewhere and so on until satisfied...
If you crush a scrotum there is an effect on the central nervous system that cannot be controlled leaving them vulnerable... same as a shot to the liver or trachea or brachial plexus or inner ear or saphenous nerve.... there are plenty of options that provide a cns response or spinal reflex... the eyes throat and groin just cant be conditioned like a trapezius muscle or quadracep and so on....
I never train to rely on one singular option... I will take as many options as possible until I am satisfied and will accept no compromise...
The strike to the eyes you mentioned may have seen success had the chain of injury continued to other areas such as the ones I mentioned above and others not mentioned...

Unless someone has a special circumstance such as a physical disability, a learning disability, or perhaps been traumatized by some kind of sexual or violent encounter, no adult should be treated different than any other adult within the dojo regardless of sex, sexual orientation..yadda, yadda, yadda.In training, regardless of where or when all are equal...no matter the limitation or disability...everyone can adapt and improvise... the ones that cant, wont even bother to train.

[shihansmurf]

Actually I practice Iron Anus Qigong.

Ewww...

Just, ewww.......


Mark

[BLACK LION]

I will answer the OP question. Most of the women I trained with would be insulted, so my answer is no.

I bet you didnt know that if you poke a pit bull in the bung hole with a stick his jaws will unlock... imagine that

What??? Where do people come up with this stuff LOL LMBO. Jaws locking is a myth and the rest of this is just plain silly.
Strange... my cousin breeds blue pits and his just attacked his female after she pit him... he locked on the throat and would not let go... He is also a practitioner of bunjinkan and nothing worked accept a 1/2" thick chain across the skull. So yes... they do lock on and will not let go unless EXTREME measures are taken...
I told him that next time, before bludgeoning your dog almost to death to ram a stick in his arse and he will let go. Easy way to save 2 dogs without them getting seriously injured or killed...
His other dog was not so lucky and suffered a punctured esophagus. This is partly becuase of all the things he tried to get the dog off...he just sank in deeper.

No their jaws do not technically lock...but with stronger jaws and a higher pain tolerance than its peers it might as well...

When was the last time you had to deal with a bloodthirsty animal??

[shihansmurf]

Having said that, I would imagine that forceful insertion of a stick into the rectum of any creature would cause it to stop what it was doing.

Daniel

I am covering stick disarms with my class tonight and for my lead in I like to show a few videos of the Dog Brothers in action. Sometimes I use a club and strike a stick that the student is holding so they can get an idea of how dangerous and effective of a weapon a simple stick can be.

Now I am forced to use your quote as a motivational tool.

:)

Thanks

Mark

[Guardian]

Strange... my cousin breeds blue pits and his just attacked his female after she pit him... he locked on the throat and would not let go... He is also a practitioner of bunjinkan and nothing worked accept a 1/2" thick chain across the skull. So yes... they do lock on and will not let go unless EXTREME measures are taken...
I told him that next time, before bludgeoning your dog almost to death to ram a stick in his arse and he will let go. Easy way to save 2 dogs without them getting seriously injured or killed...
His other dog was not so lucky and suffered a punctured esophagus. This is partly becuase of all the things he tried to get the dog off...he just sank in deeper.

No their jaws do not technically lock...but with stronger jaws and a higher pain tolerance than its peers it might as well...

When was the last time you had to deal with a bloodthirsty animal??

Ok, I'm glad you posted paragraph 3 here, because I've been an Animal Control Officer/Supervisor for 8 years now and we were going to have a long discussion on truth and facts of animals here LOL.

I will agree that their jaw anatomy is different then most breeds and they can exert a tremendous amount of pressure with those jaws and through past breeding they were taught to grag hold and not let go

As far as your last question, check the profile Lion, almost every dang day partner (Animal Control Officer/Supervisor) and 30% of the dogs we deal with are loose aggressive dogs and 20% of them are Pit Bulls. Is your brother registered with any kennels or on the net or associated with any organization if he's a breeder, I like looking up dogs on the net, especially pits, I like the dogs almost as good as my Golden Retriever.

In fact just yesterday, I was evaluating my new officer, I have 7 officers under me, we had three calls for aggressive Pit Bulls and I needed to evaluate how he handled himself in these types of situation, so we took those two calls and of course, I'm not going to let anything happen to him if he hesitates, so I'm in front, but he came through with flying colors. One turned out to be a wimp once cornered on the porch, the other two were adrenaline rushes.

Anymore questions?

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1163909#post1163909)

Having said that, I would imagine that forceful insertion of a stick into the rectum of any creature would cause it to stop what it was doing.

Daniel

LOL LMBO, usually it would I imagine.

[tellner]

I originally heard that bit about the pit bull from a TKD teacher decades ago. But he suggested using a thumb instead of a stick. I guess you can wiggle it around to find the terminus of the vagus nerve or some such. He had other strange ideas as well.

It's a lot like the recipe for Rabbit Stew. "First, catch a rabbit."


http://www.pulse.org.za/pulse/images/farside/farside1.jpg
An instant later Professor Waxman
and his time machine were obliterated
leaving the cold-blooded / warm-blooded
debate still unresolved.

[Himura Kenshin]

1. There is absolutely no way you could consider being beaten as a social event. Sometimes it is not possible to simply leave if someone is trying to hurt you; there is such a thing as escalation of force and a competent warrior should be able to defend himself/herself without having to resort to deadly force.

2. A woman being beaten by her husband should just leave? Try telling that to any of the women at your local shelter. Plus if a man is actively slapping her around she should be able to knock him on his ass without killing him, whihc could end her up in prision.

3. You make it sound like the only real threats a person can face are death or rape. What about battery or assault? Many violent crimes like rape and murder start with smaller crimes that escalate, there is nothing social about any violence even on the smallest scale, and to be able to escape one may need to result to physical self-defense that does not call for the force you are insisting people need to use.

4. Lastly I don't practice sport MA. I practice aiki ninjutsu, which is a very effective self-defense oriented martial art. And we don't train women any different than we train men.

[Tez3]

You can't breed pit bulls legally here now or even own them now. Owners at the time of the law being made legal didn't have to put them down though just control them.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1991/ukpga_19910065_en_1

"1 Dogs bred for fighting
(1) This section applies to—
(a) any dog of the type known as the pit bull terrier;
(b) any dog of the type known as the Japanese tosa; and
(c) any dog of any type designated for the purposes of this section by an order of the Secretary of State, being a type appearing to him to be bred for fighting or to have the characteristics of a type bred for that purpose.
(2) No person shall—
(a) breed, or breed from, a dog to which this section applies;
(b) sell or exchange such a dog or offer, advertise or expose such a dog for sale or exchange;
(c) make or offer to make a gift of such a dog or advertise or expose such a dog as a gift;
(d) allow such a dog of which he is the owner or of which he is for the time being in charge to be in a public place without being muzzled and kept on a lead; or
(e) abandon such a dog of which he is the owner or, being the owner or for the time being in charge of such a dog, allow it to stray. "

[Daniel Sullivan]

Actually that's not true. Women have been known to attack other women in the same way men attack other men. There are some "alpha females" that like to show they're tough by beating the crap out of some other girl. It's a common gang initiation. Also, let's not forget about that video posted on youtube of those teenage girls beating some poor girl half to death just for the fun of it.
I will agree with both you and Black Lion;

I would agree with Black Lion; actually, it is true for women.

As in adult women who live normative lives (i.e. not associated with gangs, etc.).

I would agree with you, Kenshin regarding girls.

The boys tend to leave the girls alone in terms of 'fighting', which leaves the rarer cases of rape or honest (meaning true intent to harm, not just a slap or a shove) attacks by boys. Most physical altercations that kids have will be with someone of the same gender. Boys spend their time jockeying for position in the pecking order and leave the girls out of it, while the girls to the same within their own circles. Once gangs are involved, shootings or rumbles not withstanding, you still have the same dynamic; the girls are more likely to be attacked by other girls than by guys in general.

But once out of high school, girls tend to be less inclined to physically fight with eachother than guys, and guys are less inclined to physically fight after high school in general; both mainly because they no longer are shielded from the consequences of their actions by virtue of being minors.

Young ladies who are inclined to solve their problems with violence after high school have all of the same inherent problems in doing so as young men who continue to fight after high school. In addition, they have the problem that women generally do not consider fighting to be 'cool', thus once outside of school they enter a more sophisticated social setting where beating on other young ladies or women results in not only serious legal consequences, but also in being ostracized by their peers.

Such young ladies either grow up and find other ways of solving their problems or are marginalized to social groups where such behaviour is acceptable. And those groups are definitely a small minority amongs women who have graduated high school.

Daniel

[BLACK LION]

I will agree with both you and Black Lion;

I would agree with Black Lion; actually, it is true for women.

As in adult women who live normative lives (i.e. not associated with gangs, etc.).

I would agree with you, Kenshin regarding girls.

The boys tend to leave the girls alone in terms of 'fighting', which leaves the rarer cases of rape or honest (meaning true intent to harm, not just a slap or a shove) attacks by boys. Most physical altercations that kids have will be with someone of the same gender. Boys spend their time jockeying for position in the pecking order and leave the girls out of it, while the girls to the same within their own circles. Once gangs are involved, shootings or rumbles not withstanding, you still have the same dynamic; the girls are more likely to be attacked by other girls than by guys in general.

But once out of high school, girls tend to be less inclined to physically fight with eachother than guys, and guys are less inclined to physically fight after high school in general; both mainly because they no longer are shielded from the consequences of their actions by virtue of being minors.

Young ladies who are inclined to solve their problems with violence after high school have all of the same inherent problems in doing so as young men who continue to fight after high school. In addition, they have the problem that women generally do not consider fighting to be 'cool', thus once outside of school they enter a more sophisticated social setting where beating on other young ladies or women results in not only serious legal consequences, but also in being ostracized by their peers.

Such young ladies either grow up and find other ways of solving their problems or are marginalized to social groups where such behaviour is acceptable. And those groups are definitely a small minority amongs women who have graduated high school.

Daniel


Outstanding assesment


Also... I know I touched uncharted territory with the anus thing but it holds true to man and beast alike...It is a very viable target. Its a no go zone that puts people and animals way out of their comfort zone and offers the ability to compromise them and gain the overall advantage.

I was jumped and taken down by a larger guy who in-turn was able to put me in an arm bar... he began to tighten it up to pop my arm but the target was right there... I used the "knife hand" or "spear hand" and utilized the target which was clearly available... the spinal reflex was text book... they jerked backward and kicked the legs at the same time like a fish out of water and by then I was on my feet stomping and kicking targets.

there is a definative eeewwwwww factor but damnit its effects are priceless...

thanks guys

[BLACK LION]

1. There is absolutely no way you could consider being beaten as a social event.Yes it is if the goal of the parties is to inflict pain and not injury. Sometimes it is not possible to simply leave if someone is trying to hurt you; there is such a thing as escalation of force and a competent warrior should be able to defend himself/herself without having to resort to deadly force. Targeting weakness does not equate to deadly force. Neither does inflicting injury. A woman once prevented a brutal rape and murder by grabbing her attackers scrotum after he turned off the lights and jumped in the bed to get some... she squeezed them with conviction despite the fact he was punching her in the face and even threw her against the wall...she never let go even after a tumble down the stairs... by that time he was begging her to release him which she did...naked and all... then she went upstairs and grabbed a gun, came back and fired two rounds in the direction he ran before calling 911. true story.

2. A woman being beaten by her husband should just leave? Try telling that to any of the women at your local shelter. Plus if a man is actively slapping her around she should be able to knock him on his ass without killing him, whihc could end her up in prision. You originally implied she was merely being slapped around. And if they are at the shelter then they must have decided to leave. If a woman is being slapped around or beaten they could easily be injured severely and that doesnt mean use deadly force but a strike to a target doesnt always equate to death.

3. You make it sound like the only real threats a person can face are death or rape. What about battery or assault?No I dont but if you train as such then the not so extreme situations are way easier to deal with. Many violent crimes like rape and murder start with smaller crimes that escalate, there is nothing social about any violence even on the smallest scale, and to be able to escape one may need to result to physical self-defense that does not call for the force you are insisting people need to use. If you speak of violence then the force required to injure is a must and the one who wants to make it out needs to be the one injuring. Not all situations require death nor will the all result in death... but at the same time understanding what it takes to put someone down is paramount. A thumb jabbed into the eye socket is not deadly but it buys more time to continue injuring or egress/escape... a clap to the ear may not kill them cold but it will impair balance-equilibrium and such if the inner or middle ear is traumatized... a forearm to the sternocledomastoid is not a kill shot but if effected properly will begin if not secure the fainting process...
the key is understanding the targets and the effects of hitting them including the spinal reflex associated... what anyone faced with conflict should strive for is to be the one who is not compromising one bit yet making the threat compromise completely... get them to do what you want...not the other way around... its always all about you and never them.

4. Lastly I don't practice sport MA. I practice aiki ninjutsu, which is a very effective self-defense oriented martial art. And we don't train women any different than we train men.

Ninjutsu is good stuff.
It has afforded me a wealth of information.

[Deaf Smith]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

Depends.

If it's a martal arts class that has emphsis on the art, yea.

If the class is to prepare them to defend themselves on the street, no.

Deaf

[Daniel Sullivan]

1. There is absolutely no way you could consider being beaten as a social event. Sometimes it is not possible to simply leave if someone is trying to hurt you; there is such a thing as escalation of force and a competent warrior should be able to defend himself/herself without having to resort to deadly force.
As a general rule, I would agree with you. Putting being beaten into the context of professional boxing, however, and they dynamic is now a sport, which is social.

The drunk who gets violent at the party may not be acting very social, but the event is social and because he is drunk, most everyone here would agree (I am likely the exception) that he should be handled with greater care than one would handle, say a gangbanger who is actively seeking to kill you.

For the record, once the drunk guy gets violent, I am all in favor of inflicting permanent crippling injuries to him. I hold drunks responsible for their actions and cut them zero slack in that area. Same with people who become violent in concert with recreational drug use.


2. A woman being beaten by her husband should just leave? Try telling that to any of the women at your local shelter. Plus if a man is actively slapping her around she should be able to knock him on his ass without killing him, whihc could end her up in prision.
To answer your first question, yes, she should if at all possible. Leave the house and call the police and press charges. Sadly, you do point out a very difficult situation. Sometimes, the police are unwilling to intervene to any great extent in a domestic dispute, and when the do intervene, since the guy is not put away for life, he will often ignore the restraining order and go right back to beating her up. Some will even try to track her down at the shelter if she winds up there, and wait for her to physically exit the premisis and attacker en rout to wherever she is going.


3. You make it sound like the only real threats a person can face are death or rape. What about battery or assault? Many violent crimes like rape and murder start with smaller crimes that escalate, there is nothing social about any violence even on the smallest scale, and to be able to escape one may need to result to physical self-defense that does not call for the force you are insisting people need to use.
Total agreement. Because of this very dynamic of small crimes escalating into larger crimes, I am a firm believer that any physical attack should always be treated as if it will end in death, and for ladies, death or rape. Once a person crosses the line to assault or battery, he or she has already demonstrated that they will break the law. If they cannot be trusted in smaller matters, they cannot be trusted in greater matters. Once it becomes physical, your life is on the line.


4. Lastly I don't practice sport MA. I practice aiki ninjutsu, which is a very effective self-defense oriented martial art. And we don't train women any different than we train men.
Sport MA has its benefits, but I am with you. Both men and women are out of the ring far more than they in the ring. The only threats in the ring are those of accidental death or injury (and there are rules and safety precautions in place to minimize that possiblilty) or negative impact on your competition record. In real life, the potential threats are much greater and there are no refs or safety precautions to minimize the danger.

Daniel

[Spartan 117]

This has got to be the weirdest exchange I've yet to read on martialtalk. I have to admit that I've never considered the deadly "poke the pitbull in the ass with a stick" defense. Handy, I imagine, if one were teaching Michael Vick.

:)

I am forced to wonder at the experimentation that led to the discovery of this technique.

"Well, Bob, I've been thinking. For tonights' class were going to work on self defens againg suprise pit bull maulings."

"Bwaa!!"

"Oh I know its a suprise, but I thought it would be a good idea to be prepared for it, you know, just in case. Now since you've healed up from our orangutang training, I think were ready to begin."

"Okay......"

"Now, here's what you do. When it attack you it'll probably lock its jaws and thrash around. I want you to try repeated head strikes. Got it? Good. Okay I'm letting Fluffy out of the cage!"

"AAUGHH!!! GOD IT HURTS!!! HELP!! PLEASE!!!!"

"Oh hell, that didn't work, try pulling its ears!!"

"OW!OW!OW!OW!"

"Oh go, I'm gonna get sued again. I gotta do something. I know, I'll poke it in the ass with a stick. Most things hate that."

"moan....whimper...bleed...."

"Wow..it worked..and as soon as this pit bull stops chasing me, I'll have a new technique to add to the schools curriclum. Sweet!"


Mark


Well, now that was funny. I laughed like a madman.

Cool avatar by the way.

[tellner]

This has got to be the weirdest exchange I've yet to read on martialtalk. I have to admit that I've never considered the deadly "poke the pitbull in the ass with a stick" defense. Handy, I imagine, if one were teaching Michael Vick.

:)

I am forced to wonder at the experimentation that led to the discovery of this technique.

"Well, Bob, I've been thinking. For tonights' class were going to work on self defens againg suprise pit bull maulings."

I'm guessing that the derivation was more theoretical than experimental. Imagine what would happen if you did manage to get the weapon directly on target. There would be a split second when a photographer with a fast camera would get the Platonic Ideal of the expression "Dawning Canine Realization". And then someone would have Fido's undivided attention.

[Himura Kenshin]

BLACK LION,

I feel that I understand you a bit better, and while you and I seem to have some differences of opinions, I do agree with your last post, so it's good to see we can come to common ground.

[shihansmurf]

"Dawning Canine Realization"..

would undoubtedly be the name of the technique if this were performed in a kenpo school.

:)


Mark

[kaizasosei]

In my opinion, absolutely not! No group of people should receive special treatment. The treatment of the student should be proportional to their individual abilities and having a soft spot for anyone in particular is uncalled for.


j

[BLACK LION]

BLACK LION,

I feel that I understand you a bit better, and while you and I seem to have some differences of opinions, I do agree with your last post, so it's good to see we can come to common ground.


We all have a common ground here... its just we are forced to articulate without physical expression...which in my opinion is impossible to do on the internet. Although it is a wealthy resource for info it does not and will not take place of the physical and physiological nature of what we do.

Respectfully
Broderick

[Daniel Sullivan]

We all have a common ground here... its just we are forced to articulate without physical expression...which in my opinion is impossible to do on the internet. Although it is a wealthy resource for info it does not and will not take place of the physical and physiological nature of what we do.

Respectfully
Broderick
It is a very different conversing on the web and I give everyone credit for the time that is taken to articulate and parse through differences in terminology.

Both you and Kenshin have taken a great deal of time to articulate where you are coming from, and you both express yourselves very differently. Kudos to you both!

Daniel

[Himura Kenshin]

Ah, thanks guv'na.

[BLACK LION]

My good friend and co-worker is a member of San Diego Bunjinkan assoc. and I have always had an affinity for ninjistsu and its many facets. We go back and forth all the time and for the most part we agree. I dont try to change him or push my convictions on him and vice versa. We just borrow each others tools. Hell.. I ride a ninja everyday;)


We have more in common than it seems. Trust me.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I also train at a Jinenkan school in addition to KMA. Love it.

Daniel

[BLACK LION]

Have you had any experience in Hwarangdo Daniel??? I was following some older Michael Echanis material and stumbled across it. Sparked my interest to say the least.

[Daniel Sullivan]

No Hwarangdo. I train in kendo, hapkido and taekwondo, and I find that the Jinenkan Taijutsu and Kenjutsu actually compliment all three quite nicely. My hapkido instructor was an instructor in the ROK, so we get some very useful material in his classes.

I have trained in some bo, jo, and other sword styles and have put alot of those lessons into use of my blackthorn.

Having said that, if time and money allowed, and if there were a hwarangdo dojang that was convenient to me, I would check it out.

Daniel

[BLACK LION]

My good friend Shervin Tehranchi was a bb in hapkido...I am not sure to what degree. He trained under Master Tom Gwak. He was a great fighter.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Do you mean this Tom Gwak?

http://www.pe.com/business/local/stories/PE_Biz_D_gwak02.3144644.html

Looks like a wonderful school and a great man to train with!

Daniel

[BLACK LION]

Yes that is him and its Hap do sool...my mistake. He covers many different styles and arts. That man had vans running over him and spears to the throat and all kinda shyt. I spent much time observing in that studio and getting a little practice in between Shervins classes he taught. I can still see the pictures of Master Gwak under the van clear as day.

He molded my friend into a great fighter but unfortunately did not prepare him to fight for his life. He died from stab wounds after fighting off 5 thugs bent on jacking his brothers car and posessions. He played the ultimate game and paid with his life. He did however beat the **** out of them but somehow one got away and got to a knife and did him prison style...4 shots in the upper torso severing his aorta.... This changed my life and my training completely...

People always wanted to see us two fight or spar each other but we were too good of friends and we knew we could never declare a true winner... I did however take on another bb from the same school and beat him pretty badly... He was very cocky and ran his gums allot so he kinda had it comin...

Damn Shervin was a great fighter... I still to this day regret I could not be there on that night. I usually was.

[Jade Tigress]

ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please return to the original topic.

Thank you,
Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator

[wolfeyes2323]

The treatment a student receives is relative to the art being practiced.
Some arts were not intended or designed for women, others arts were.
There are also arts designed for women, which some men have difficulty with.

If you look at the History of a art Like Wing Chung (which is named for a women),
The art was developed by a young lady because she could not compete with
the harsh physical training of the southern Chinese methods, (eg Tiger styles)

This Crane style influence in many arts is the soft side of Half hard methods .

There are some males (primarily big strong types) that are not suited to
softer arts, they have trouble overcoming this dominating Physicality,

Do they receive special treatment in soft arts ? they shouldn’t , but they do,
because , in some regrards a large strong man will never be as graceful , flowing
or agile as a women , nor will they develop the internal power(soft) of a some women.

Many styles are half hard methods (Okinawan karate) , the students will tend to polarize
the larger and Physically stronger will tend to the hard, and
need special training to make them softer,
the slighter and more demure will tend toward the soft and internal,
they will need special training to become more physical.
They both need special training and consideration to excel.

It is not always a Male and female thing, it is a body type and mentality thing as well.

If you were to pick a method , Say a harsh physical one, then women really do not belong
here, they will receive special treatment , because despite their selves Men will NOT
treat them the same, regardless of what they say, and this is correct, you can
not go beating on a women’s ovaries and breasts etc, without repercussion.

If you pick a soft internal method, a 250 lb, male with the grace of a water buffalo
does not belong there, he will not excel and will always struggle, he needs to use
his natural ability and Physicality .

we could say to each their own, but in most modern methods , both can be found in
ONE, and it is just a matter of degree of polarization.

Romney^..^

[Daniel Sullivan]

He molded my friend into a great fighter but unfortunately did not prepare him to fight for his life. He died from stab wounds after fighting off 5 thugs bent on jacking his brothers car and posessions. He played the ultimate game and paid with his life. He did however beat the shyt out of them but somehow one got away and got to a knife and did him prison style...4 shots in the upper torso severing his aorta.... This changed my life and my training completely...
Firstly, my condolences to you. The loss of a friend in such a manner is always sad.

Secondly, to bring this back on topic, this is a good illustration of why women and men should be trained to equally high degrees: carjackers and gangbangers will take advantage of anyone's weak points. Your friend sounds like he did not have much in the way of weak points, but against five armed men, the odds were definitely against him.

If a lady (or anyone else, for that matter) is treated with kid gloves, then when they really need that training to work for them, they do not have it to the degree that they should and by then, it is too late.

Daniel

[wolfeyes2323]

Is this special treatment or just a better way for smaller people to train ?
(as opposed to training with large strong men as a man does)

Check out the articles and essays at
http://www.northeastwingchun.com/ (http://www.northeastwingchun.com/)

there it says :
Wing chun's creator, the Buddhist nun, Ng Mui, and her most notable student,
Yim Wing Chun, for whom the system was named, were both women of small stature.
Ng, teaching the unique movements of her close-range style, showed Yim Wing Chun
how to overcome larger and stronger opponents. Small people need to move into close
range to become effective against a taller opponent. The long arms of a tall attacker become a burden against the super-close range, centerline attacks of wing chun.
Yim Wing Chun taught the techniques to her husband, and through subsequent generations,the system was well-guarded and passed on to only a few, very dedicated students.

is Hard superiour to Soft ?

Romney^..^

[wolfeyes2323]

Watch this women, I wound not want her to hit me .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKwO5-ji1rQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKwO5-ji1rQ)

worth reading , this interview with Lui Chang I , of Feeding Crane.

I had the privilege of meeting and training with Mr Lui,
he says of Feeding Crane , “Kill you one second”
And he can demonstrate exactly how it could be done.

This method is very Physical, but , the amount of Physicality is
measured relative to the stature of the student .
It can be practiced by a women, and her challenges will often
be opposite of that of a man.
for a man it is a matter of being able to relax, and generate
short power, for a women it is the Physicality .

the training of men and women is the same, but at the same time
different to focus on there individual challenges.

Are men and women treated differently , Yes in a way ,
and No in a way.

Romney^..^

[wolfeyes2323]

OOPs forgot the link for the interview with Mr Lui
http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/article36.htm