Has race ever been made into an issue for you?

[Ronin74]

The Female instructor thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74659) by DoubleZ711, got me to wondering if has race ever been made an issue for anyone else when it came to training? Specifically, have you ever been told not to concern yourself with a particular art, because there was already an art from your ethnic background that you could be involved with?

I was once told not to bother with learning another art (even though I do have an interest in it), because as Filipino, FMA should be more of my concern. I couldn't help but feel this was limiting and close-minded, and was disappointed to hear it came from an instructor who's opinion I respected. I'll admit that my initial interest in FMA was to utilize my love of martial arts as a vehicle to help learn about my culture, but beyond that, I don't see how having that kind of a mentality would benefit anyone.

Has this ever happened to anyone else?

[terryl965]

I train in what I like and who I like and nothing has ever changed that. Race should never come into lay in the MA.

[Bruno@MT]

No.

But then again I am from Belgium, so any martial art originating here would probably involve distracting people with waffles and chocolate, and then making them drink 'real' beer which will knock them out after a couple of glasses.

[Ironcrane]

Never happened like that exactly, but I've come across a couple of instances where race was an issue. I wrote down one of them in a post I made in the comedy cafe. You can find that one there.
There was one other thing that happened, but it wasn't as severe as that. Basicly, myself, and two of my friends were trying to decide on a name for our school, and one of them suggested KKK. that being - Karate, Kenpo, and Kung fu, which were our martial backgrounds. What was ironic about that, was he was black.
He really wanted that name, but my other friend, and I, were eventually able to talk him out of it.

[seasoned]

When I walk into a DoJo all I see are people, as it is in life. Jerks and low life's are not bound by race, color, or gender. As for me, I base everyone by the content of their character, and have found that Martial arts has a tendency to bond, Rather the alienate people.

[harlan]

I'm kinda curious about the original post.

Was the source of dissuasion your teacher, or from others? I think it makes a big difference is dissuasion, with any rationale, comes from ones teacher.

[jarrod]

No.

But then again I am from Belgium, so any martial art originating here would probably involve distracting people with waffles and chocolate, and then making them drink 'real' beer which will knock them out after a couple of glasses.

now that is an attack i would welcome!

jf

[Ronin74]

No.

But then again I am from Belgium, so any martial art originating here would probably involve distracting people with waffles and chocolate, and then making them drink 'real' beer which will knock them out after a couple of glasses.
I have no defense for this... LOL

[Ronin74]

I'm kinda curious about the original post.

Was the source of dissuasion your teacher, or from others? I think it makes a big difference is dissuasion, with any rationale, comes from ones teacher.
Not exactly. I've taken a few classes under that instructor before, but not enough to warrent them as my teacher.

[tshadowchaser]

has race ever been made an issue for anyone else when it came to training?
I once had a parent acuse me of racism until I showed him a picture of the person my son was named after and another picture in my office of some of my close friends.
As for myslef i welcome anyone into my class if they are willing to train and treat others in class as brothers and sisters. Point infact when I taught in N.C. I had a class of all white students until a friend came by to study. My students where given the choice treat him as they did me and each other or leave.

[FearlessFreep]

now that is an attack i would welcome!

jf

Go down happy, for sure...

[Rich Parsons]

The Female instructor thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74659) by DoubleZ711, got me to wondering if has race ever been made an issue for anyone else when it came to training? Specifically, have you ever been told not to concern yourself with a particular art, because there was already an art from your ethnic background that you could be involved with?

I was once told not to bother with learning another art (even though I do have an interest in it), because as Filipino, FMA should be more of my concern. I couldn't help but feel this was limiting and close-minded, and was disappointed to hear it came from an instructor who's opinion I respected. I'll admit that my initial interest in FMA was to utilize my love of martial arts as a vehicle to help learn about my culture, but beyond that, I don't see how having that kind of a mentality would benefit anyone.

Has this ever happened to anyone else?

I have had Filipino's get upset when they found out I trained and taught FMA systems.

I have had Filipino's tell me to not teach as I cannot ever truly be as good as any Filipino.

I have some people get upset as I was not Blond and Blue Eyed, but I cared not for training with them.

And not to make it sound like all Filipino's are racist, I have had two great man teach me what they knew, so it is on an individual by individual basis.

[FearlessFreep]

*shrug* no. My background is a mixture of Russian, Slovak and Scot/Irish so I'm not sure there's a real ethnic background there that applies to Martial Arts.

My current (Hapkido) instructor is black as was my prior (Tae Kwon Do) instructor. It's never been an issue to me or anyone in class that I've ever noticed

[FearlessFreep]

I have had Filipino's get upset when they found out I trained and taught FMA systems.

I have had Filipino's tell me to not teach as I cannot ever truly be as good as any Filipino.

I have some people get upset as I was not Blond and Blue Eyed, but I cared not for training with them.


That actually sounds very similar to stories I've heard about Koreans (and maybe Japanese as well). I heard that one of tehe biggest differences between BJJ and many of the Asian arts was that the Gracies were willing to share everything with anyone and at the time the Asian arts were a little more insular.

[searcher]

The only time I have ever seen race come up when I was around was back when I was boxing. And the one making the racist comments was quickly quieted by the other of the same race that were present.

Most of the time, it is the MA side of things that make us share a common mindset/interest. It is when we are away that race tends to become a thing and not very often.

[Nolerama]

It sucks that someone you respect in the MAs thinks that you shouldn't train in the FMAs, especially as a Filipino.

I'm Filipino, and have taken a stab at the FMA's as a way to integrate it into my fighting game (the footwork and speed can make you very agile) and to explore my own culture.

Purists come with any MA. I suggest looking at that particular instructor as a purist who refuses to look beyond his experiences. Agree to disagree about your differing curiosity levels and wish him a good day. You'll get something out of your training in the FMAs, and you might bring something back your friend might be able to appreciate.

And it might change his mind.

So have fun with it. Besides, I don't think this is a race issue as much as it may be a Art-centric issue.

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

Being a Latino, I don't think I have much to choose from if I'm going to go from my own ethnic martial arts (Aztec fighting isn't that popular in central Texas)

That said, I don't think it should matter where we come from. We all walk the same way, look ahead when we stand, throw the same punches, get hurt by the same throws. There's nothing I, as a Latino, can't do that a Russian can do.

Consider the Jingwu Sports Federation, it was formed to unify the martial arts of China so as to make them available to all people, not just those in the family, or region, whatever. I think we'll always have the purists, but there are also always going to be those that do their damndest to try and change that.

That's one of the reasons why I enjoy living in America so much, as, while the martial arts may not be united, they certainly are easily available to those wish for them, in most cases. If you want to take an art, you can get on google, look for it, and you'll probably find one somewhere in America, and they'll accept you.

[Big Don]

My school is 98% Mexican. I and 3 others are the exceptions. Race only really matters to a holes.

[geezer]

That's one of the reasons why I enjoy living in America so much, as, while the martial arts may not be united, ...If you want to take an art, you can get on google, look for it, and you'll probably find one somewhere in America, and they'll accept you.

Over the years I've encountered a few MA practiioners and instructors that have some racial issues. Some have been Anglo-American and were subtly anti-minority. Others have been from the cultures where their art originated and were biased against sharing it fully with outsiders. But one great thing about living in America. Every citizen, regardless of race, gender, religion or ethnic origin is equally an American. It's not like that in some other developed nations. I've heard that an ethnic Turk may be born and raised in Germany, and speak German as a native, but legally is not a German. Nor, I've been told, is an ethnic Korean born in Japan considered Japanese. For all our faults, I believe we are finally moving beyond such "tribal" attitudes.

[Ronin74]

Race only really matters to a holes.
Can't get it any clearer than that.

I'm proud of my culture, but never would I try to limit myself or others by saying that this or that art was better left to the groups credited with their origin.

[Guardian]

Never played a part in my training, but then again, 95% of my training came during my military days and I/we didn't stand for that nonsense, at least not in any unit I was part of.

[Kacey]

Race? Not specifically, no... although I have gotten "Really? You don't look like a black belt" on occasion - further questioning about what a black belt looks like would lead to one of 2 descriptions: either I should be 6' or taller, male, and muscular, or I should be about 5'5", Asian and male... either way, the determining factor was gender, not race. Race has never been an issue for me, nor for any of the instructors I know, although the occasional student has made comments - at which student was corrected, and changed his/her attitude, or was asked to not return, as such attitudes are not appropriate for training.

[Ken Morgan]

Never seen an issue with race specifically, but strange attitudes when it comes to Nationality.

In the JSA, I’ve seen people put more credence into a 4th Dan who trained at sometime in their career in Japan for six months, then a local 6th Dan. Or put more value in a Japanese 4th Dan, and almost ignore North American 7th Dan’s.

I had a friend go to school in the States, and was always picked first for pickup hockey games, because he was from Canada….he never played hockey in his life, but because he was Canadian……

[MA-Caver]

One of my earliest MA-instructors was a Brown-belt in some form of Karate... I cannot remember which one... (please remember that all my MA-training was informal/non-dojo), but he spent many months with me teaching me what he knew and having me do drills with him... helping him as his uke while teaching me lower belt(s) techniques. He was a co-worker... he was also a good friend (not close but well, you know)... he was also black.

No, race has never been an issue when it came to my training ... or anything else for that matter these days.
In fact couple of the single girls at work are flirting back, I might even ask one of them out pretty soon ... one of them is just as black as my friend that got me started on my path so long ago. :idunno: These days I don't see any differences, they're attractive, they're adults, they're women... so?

Why would a person's skin pigment being different than yours make ANY difference at all in their ability to teach you the art you wish to learn? What would their nationality have to do with it? People used to think that only Chinese could teach REAL Martial Arts. I hope everyone knows what a crock of crap that cliche is these days.

If you get a different race/nationality from you giving you an attitude about/whenever they teach you or you ask them to teach you... well, if it were me... I'd rethink it over and see if I can't find anyone else. If you can't then how you deal with it is how you deal with it. Hopefully you'll win them over and they'll be glad they decided to teach you. And maybe you'll knock away some of their own predjuice along the way.

[elder999]

The Female instructor thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74659) by DoubleZ711, got me to wondering if has race ever been made an issue for anyone else when it came to training?

Yes.


Specifically, have you ever been told not to concern yourself with a particular art, because there was already an art from your ethnic background that you could be involved with?

No.


I did have some interesting interactions as a black man in Japan for a year, more than 30 years ago-they were more cultural than training related, though-but there were some training related ones as well. I also had some interesting interactions in New York, with dojos that were almost completely if not completely black-since I trained in ones that were way more diverse, but mostly white-again, more of a cultural thing than a training related thing......for the most part, people look at a person who is training as a fellow student, and don't tend to see race first, or even second. On the other hand, with the Japanese, not being Japanese was always something of an undercurrent, in everything you did-not just martial arts......

[Carol]

.Not directly, but I do know a Filipina lady that loooves TKD. One time I went over to her part of the state for a festival, and happened to run in to someone I met at an FMA seminar. Later, when I ran in to that person again, my Filipina friend came up in conversation and he mentioned that he was surprised that she was training in TKD and not the FMAs.

Um...what? I'm Scandinavian, but I sure as hell don't know any Glima. :idunno:

Although, considering my propensity for lifting heavy things...perhaps I should at least consider training with a warhammer. :lol:

[Ronin74]

Although, considering my propensity for lifting heavy things...perhaps I should at least consider training with a warhammer. :lol:
Good one.

Here's an irony I forgot to mention- this instructor also taught FMA, was not Filipino, so it bewildered (and disturbed) me to wonder how that opinion could have been formed.

On the opposite, and more positive side of things, I had been reading about Andy Hug's (1964-2000) life as a fighter, and despite having been born in Switzerland, he was one of the more beloved modern fighters in Japan, with K-1 founder Kazuyoshi Ishii going so far as to give him the honorary title of "samurai".

It's beginning to sound like this isn't a common trend, though I have heard others make the similar opinion on FMAs should be taught by Filipinos, etc, so it's a little encouraging.

[tellner]

The Female instructor thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74659) by DoubleZ711, got me to wondering if has race ever been made an issue for anyone else when it came to training? Specifically, have you ever been told not to concern yourself with a particular art, because there was already an art from your ethnic background that you could be involved with?

Not exactly. But I have been told that "We've got no place for Jews here" from instructors who assumed I was Christian and had teachers refer to Black people as "spear chuckers" and "******s". I've been in schools (briefly) where "chick fighters" got nothing but scorn and women were relegated to teaching the kid's class no matter that they were there as regular students. I've seen incredible racism on the part of Japanese, Korean and Chinese instructors and on the part of national organizations. The deservedly-renowned Guru Cliff Stewart told me about the real origin of the Black Karate Federation (also cf. Men of Steel Discipline).

Screw 'em all. And I'll be happy to say it to their faces.

[chinto]

no it has not been.

[Ninebird8]

I have been fortunate and would like to address our colleague here. First, I have trained in kung fu and tai chi for a long time and have three masters: one is Chinese in NYC, one is black in Dallas/Las Vegas, and one is white here in Houston. I wanted their knowledge, their wisdom, etc. and never even thought about the issue here. Secondly, being Jewish, no one has ever tried to persuade me to learn Krav Maga, though aspects of it are very interesting to me, especially the historical context from which it was developed, bascially as part of a nation's survival, especially with the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence force. Thirdly, one of my two ex wives is Filipino, and I have two half Asian kids as a result. My son learned kung fu, and I learned espada y espada and some kali from my now ex-wife, who learned both secretly from her mother since they were both originally from Bisayan, a province in the PI reknowned for female knife fighters. And, as a last comment, I competed for almost 20 years, have judged for over 10 years, and I have martial arts friends all over the country of all races. I find martial arts to be, like the military, the great mixer of society. As long as you are dedicated, loyal, honorable, and love the arts, no one cares. Those qualities I just listed know no race!!!

With respect and honor.

[Grenadier]

Somewhat funny situation...

One of the students (a caucasian girl) was asking me for help, regarding getting heckled and teased for learning Karate. She said that various kids would come up to her and start making pitiful attempts at imitating Bruce Lee. She asked me how it should be dealt with, since it was unpleasant to hear those kinds of things from her classmates.

I told her to leave them be, that unless they actually make physical contact, that she shouldn't be interacting with them in any way.

She then started grumbling about how I wouldn't understand, since I wasn't there, but then she caught herself in mid-sentence, suddenly realizing that her remarks were invalid. After all, I'm of Korean descent (two Korean parents, born in the USA), and she realized that I got that kind of treatment without having any association to the martial arts.

Since then, she has pretty much stopped letting those kids bother her. I do feel sorry for the first kid who lays a hand on her, since she can flat-out deliver a very powerful punch.


I've seen incredible racism on the part of Japanese, Korean and Chinese instructors and on the part of national organizations.

Interesting... I've seen the same thing from a few Korean instructors of various Korean martial arts, although most of it only shows up after they find out that I'm a sandan in a Japanese Karate system.

Most of it comes in the form of scorn, a few grumbles about how I've strayed away from my own race.

The funny thing is, though, that I've never had any instructor of Japanese or Okinawan descent make any negative comment about my Korean heritage. :)

[blindsage]

I got into a discussion about MA with my older step-brother a couple years ago, who otherwise you wouldn't expect anything remotely biased from, but he made kind of a big deal that since we're white then we should practice styles like medieval sword fighting (which he does) since it is part of our heritage, and that he wouldn't study any other MAs because he'd rather invest in resurrecting and retaining our cultural heritage. I respect this in general if that's your thing, but the attitude he had when talking about it implied he looked down on white people studying other MAs.

My Kyokushin teachers weren't actually part of the Kyokushin organization anymore when I studied with them. They had left the organization years earlier partially because of the subtle and sometimes overt racism the Japanese teachers had towards the American students. This seems to me to have passed for the most part within that system, and all it's splinter groups, from my outside observations. Though I could be wrong.

[qwksilver61]

No,but I did experience a kind of shut out at a seminar that I attended once when I was younger.The "paying" people received more personal one on one instruction.The lower level students were left out on their own.Bad,sloppy techniques.I didn't dare take the initiative to help correct their mistakes,especially at Sifu's seminar.They paid big money like the rest of us,but received very little quality training. I took it personal.To me it's just as bad as someone being racist.

[ShelleyK]

Hmmm I havent really had any issues with me being 1/2 Filipino and 1/2 "white" while in training.....but outside of training my friends (mostly white ones) would say, "well it comes easy to you, its in your blood" I do take offense at that because TKD is NOT in my blood, nor is any other martial arts styles that I am aware of. At the same time though these same friends also fully support my endeavor to reach my BB, but also say stupid things like, "Im not gonna mess with you or you'll go all Kung Phooey on me" LOL thats funny in a way but come on....

[Omar B]

Yeah, I've had some interesting (read:bad) experiences with race. My dad's Indian, my mother's black and white but I'm fairly dark. I've lived all over the world and never had an issue with race till I lived here in the US. The first time was some kick at a gas station who called my dad (a well known around the world metallurgist) "Boy." That was a shock.

My first high school job out on Long Island NY I worked at a golf club as a bag room attendant, basically taking the members stuff and giving it back to them when they return from their game. Some things turned up missing from bags and I got dirty looks and called the n-word all over the place till I eventually left. It was then discovered that it was not me but these 2 guys from Penn State working there over the summer (stuff was found in their room). The clubhouse boss called me and asked me to come back but I didn't go, how could I go back to work at a place where I was a criminal simply because of my color?

[Thems Fighting Words]

I had a Vietnamese Kung Fu / Kung Tao instructor who taught a "closed class" as part of his general club but only to Asians (but no Chinese were allowed). Then again he was recruiter for the Tongs, so it was probably more a "business operations" thing than a racist thing.

[Cirdan]

Well I am a Norwegian but since i could not afford chainmail, warhammer, shield and a longship I had to settle for Karate :waah:

[Thems Fighting Words]

Well I am a Norwegian but since i could not afford chainmail, warhammer, shield and a longship I had to settle for Karate :waah:
That's alright. Samurai beat Vikings anyway. :uhyeah:

[Cirdan]

That's alright. Samurai beat Vikings anyway. :uhyeah:

Pah! I am pretty sure that test did not include a Viking in berzerker rage having consumed poisonous green flea mushroms. They are invulnerable to both steel and fire you know!

[shihansmurf]

I have recently taken my first Asian student. Nothing special about that in and of itself, really but he annd I decided to practice at the park a few days ago in sweats instead of gi. During our kata training we had four people come up to us to ask questions and all of them made the assumption that my friend was the instructor. Now this is in spite of the fact that I was doing the kata along with him with the resultant skill gap between us readily apparent, stopping periodicaly to correct his movements, and overall engaging him in every way as the teacher in the teacher/student relationship. I guess since I'm a white guy I must be the one learning karate from the Asian guy.

We both found it darkly funny, although we did note that the two people that approached us when we were sparring didn't make that same error. So either I live in a town full of closet racists or I spar a hell of a lot better than I do kata :)

Thats the closest I think I've ever come to real racism in the martial arts world, at least that directly impacted me. I wouldn't tolerate that crap in my school, or in reference to my students, for a second.

Mark

[Daniel Sullivan]

Given that the bulk of what people in the US associate with the martial arts is Asian, and that the bulk of people in the US are decidedly not Asian, the only time I have ever heard about race coming up was as an extention of the racial issues that the US has for a very long time before eastern martial arts came to these shores.

My younger son has a Korean friend who said, "Korean Kumdo? You can't have a black belt in that. You're not Korean."

My son said that GM Kim, who is actually from Korea (as opposed to my son's friend who was born here) seemed to think differently. That was the end of the discussion and the two of them went on to play their Halo game or whatever they were doing. This friend of his does not practice any martial art, Korean or otherwise, and the subject has never come up again.

Daniel

[tellner]

I'd suggest a look at the book <i>Men of Steel Discipline</i>. It's a history of Black practitioners in the early days of American Karate. Things have improved. They have improved a lot. It's useful to look back a few decades and see where we started and how we got to where we are.

[Balrog]

Only once. I had a somewhat militant black lady bring her son in for an intro lesson. She very aggressively asked me what her boy would learn from a lily-white guy like me.

I told her that some of the things he would learn would be courtesy, respect and self-control. I also told her that he would learn that the only color that was important was the color of the belt around the waist.

She lasted about three months. Her son was enjoying it and making progress, but she wanted him to be learning how to be a bad-ass. She pulled him out; I have no idea if she started him in a different school somewhere.

[Dave Leverich]

I'd suggest a look at the book Men of Steel Discipline. It's a history of Black practitioners in the early days of American Karate. Things have improved. They have improved a lot. It's useful to look back a few decades and see where we started and how we got to where we are.
That'd be an interesting read. Two of my original line were black men who brought MDK to the states (Sacramento), I'd be interested to read that and see what their experiences were in the late 70's.

[ATACX GYM]

I'd suggest a look at the book <i>Men of Steel Discipline</i>. It's a history of Black practitioners in the early days of American Karate. Things have improved. They have improved a lot. It's useful to look back a few decades and see where we started and how we got to where we are.


I've received quite a bit of it,and all of it well-intentioned.When I first let a Japanese friend of my Okinawan cousin know that I train in karate,he told me that I should "stick to boxing because that's yours." A number of friends would gush that I rose so rapidly in rank and skill because I'm "such a good ATHLETE! You could go PRO!" I remember a well-known Supreme Grandmaster of a Korean martial art I was studying in the late 80's giving orders to his son that I should spar higher ranking bigger guys and not be given so many compliments on my performance because he didn't want the other students to like me more.I kept fighting bigger taller stronger more experienced guys until they found guys (all black belts) who could reliably beat me--a yellow belt at the time in their art--and when I started turning the tables on them inside of a month? I was forbidden to spar and told to work on my forms and rolls only.

I got so good at the forms and rolls that Eric--son of the SGM and the best forms competitor I had seen up to that point in my life--started giving me pointers until his older brother Henry relayed to him the wishes of their father.

Don't get me started on the tournament calls either,lololol.

But overall my martial arts journey has been astoundingly rewarding and I wouldn't change it for a thing.

[punisher73]

I have recently taken my first Asian student. Nothing special about that in and of itself, really but he annd I decided to practice at the park a few days ago in sweats instead of gi. During our kata training we had four people come up to us to ask questions and all of them made the assumption that my friend was the instructor. Now this is in spite of the fact that I was doing the kata along with him with the resultant skill gap between us readily apparent, stopping periodicaly to correct his movements, and overall engaging him in every way as the teacher in the teacher/student relationship. I guess since I'm a white guy I must be the one learning karate from the Asian guy.

We both found it darkly funny, although we did note that the two people that approached us when we were sparring didn't make that same error. So either I live in a town full of closet racists or I spar a hell of a lot better than I do kata :)

Thats the closest I think I've ever come to real racism in the martial arts world, at least that directly impacted me. I wouldn't tolerate that crap in my school, or in reference to my students, for a second.

Mark

That is more of a prejudice. People don't know and so they ASSUME certain things, they "pre-judge" the situation. Racism would imply that there was a mistreatment because of race.

Unfortunately, racism/stupidity knows no color boundaries, nor does it hold only to a certain group/activity/profession. Some idiots will bring their stupidity to whatever they do.

As a side note, it used to crack me up when I worked in the jail, I would come across racist people both black and white and talk about how they couldn't be roomed with someone from another race blah, blah, blah. But, then I would always see them playing cards all the time together. I asked one of them one time why. It was "okay" to place with different races while you were in jail, but only there to pass the time. Apparantly, jail was a kind of racist neutral zone. Amazing how stupid they could be that they couldn't figure out that if they could become friends there in that setting why they couldn't extend that to the rest of their lives/places as well.

[Big Don]

Yes. As a politically conservative, heterosexual, White Male American, I am obviously the cause of every problem up to and including the Fall of Man.

[Big Don]

I'm Filipino, and have taken a stab at the FMA's as a way to integrate it into my fighting game (the footwork and speed can make you very agile) and to explore my own culture.

You are Filipino? I thought you looked like this: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/avatars/scifi/scifi%20%282%29.gif (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=16422)

[Big Don]

Race? No, I'm a fighter, not a runner...

[David43515]

I`ve been on the recieving end of a few racist comments, but never in a martial arts setting. Most people have assumed if I was willing to get sore and sweaty with them I was okay.

[Master Dan]

How about only Koreans can teach Taekwondo? or Korean maters telling other non Korean master's students they should come to them to have pride in their heritage and not train with the non Korean instructor?

Over the last two decades I cannot tell you the number of times I have taken Korean children of retired Korean TKD masters who's kids are too lazy or spoiled to learn and after several years of hard work and getting many over being fat, lazy or even learning disabilities they now say well they are pretty good its time to send them to a real TKD instructor?

[LuckyKBoxer]

No.

But then again I am from Belgium, so any martial art originating here would probably involve distracting people with waffles and chocolate, and then making them drink 'real' beer which will knock them out after a couple of glasses.

Damn I am from Belgium as well and I somehow lost my ability to Wafflefu after Coming to the States... maybe I need to get a cultural refresher course lol

[LuckyKBoxer]

You know I have to say I am actually a little embarassed to say I have never really thought about it till now, but the people I have learned from in the martial arts.....

Hispanic-Kenpo
Black-kickboxing/boxing
Filipino-Muay thai
Brazilian-Jiu Jitsu

Gee I must be racist, apparantly I don't like to train under other white people...
but then again if the intent isnt there... hrmmmm:shrug:

[ATACX GYM]

How about only Koreans can teach Taekwondo? or Korean maters telling other non Korean master's students they should come to them to have pride in their heritage and not train with the non Korean instructor?

Over the last two decades I cannot tell you the number of times I have taken Korean children of retired Korean TKD masters who's kids are too lazy or spoiled to learn and after several years of hard work and getting many over being fat, lazy or even learning disabilities they now say well they are pretty good its time to send them to a real TKD instructor?


OMG you just walked me down a LOT of static...Memory Lane style.As a Black TKD 5th dan,I have had MUCHO static slung my way for NOT being Korean.I mean...it's EXTRA BAD for Black folks,lol.What makes it worse is that I have half-Korean cousins and they tell me HORROR STORIES about how they were treated in Seoul before they came here.One of my sisters is Korean,and one of my daughters is 1/4 Korean.I remember for years that nobody would spar me because I was good and nobody would risk their reputation as a Master against me because they might lose to--well--the word translates as "ancient farm equipment" and it's an extremely derogatory reference to the slave history of Black people in the U.S.A.So nobody Korean gave me my dan,no Korean master came to my promotions,and I wasn't even accepted--TWICE--in tourneys run by Koreans as 3rd dan (back when I was a 3rd) because nobody believed that I actually received that rank.Right next to me? 4 White 3rd dans had NO PROBLEM being accepted,and if it wasn't for a White 5th dan vouching for me (thanks Scott) I wouldn't've even been able to PARTICIPATE AT ALL.

I was not amused.

2 years ago I finally sparred a Korean Master who was a high rank,dazzlingly skilled former South Korean national champion.Just before I stepped onto the mat with him,I learned that the only reason I was being allowed to spar with this man was because I was to be sharply and adroitly "punished" for "daring" to claim to hold rank that belongs only to "true Koreans" and not "shameful slaves".This knowledge from my ubiquitous secret informers was confirmed by the very first combination kick that was thrown by this skilled Korean,who just missed taking my head off with 2 kicks thrown in a 6 kick lightning combo which I barely managed to evade.Okay,he was coming for blood.These were full powered kicks that would break bones,not the "usual fare" hard kicks in sparring.

I proceeded to whoop his azz.

Punches,knees,elbows,slams,sweeps,traps,Kenpo hands,boxing,Judo and wrestling slams and throws,and...sweetest of all...I KO'd him with a full powered head kick that cracked against his skull from his left ear along his jawline to his chin.While standing over his crumpled,inert form I turned and faced the suddenly stone faced half circle of Korean Masters,bowed perfunctorily,and left.

Haven't heard or word nor seen hide nor hair of them since.

Interestingly,my very traditional Korean Hapkido Grandmaster...Grandmaster Chu...was TICKLED TO DEATH when he found out (I didn't tell him he somehow knew via the Korean grapevine) what happened,and he couldn't stop telling me how proud he was of me.I received my black from him THAT DAY,even though I hadn't learned all the forms of his unique blend of hapkido taekwondo hung gar kuk sool won and hwarangdo yet.However...even HE never came to my TKD black belt promotions.I didn't want to put him in some awkward position by asking him to come when I noted he didn't seem overly enthused at the prospect.

[shihansmurf]

That is more of a prejudice. People don't know and so they ASSUME certain things, they "pre-judge" the situation. Racism would imply that there was a mistreatment because of race.

Unfortunately, racism/stupidity knows no color boundaries, nor does it hold only to a certain group/activity/profession. Some idiots will bring their stupidity to whatever they do.

As a side note, it used to crack me up when I worked in the jail, I would come across racist people both black and white and talk about how they couldn't be roomed with someone from another race blah, blah, blah. But, then I would always see them playing cards all the time together. I asked one of them one time why. It was "okay" to place with different races while you were in jail, but only there to pass the time. Apparantly, jail was a kind of racist neutral zone. Amazing how stupid they could be that they couldn't figure out that if they could become friends there in that setting why they couldn't extend that to the rest of their lives/places as well.

While you're completely correct in your point, I remain convinced it was because I was whuppin his butt :ultracool

Mark

P.S. Good tread necro, ATACX GYM!

[Master Dan]

OMG you just walked me down a LOT of static...Memory Lane style.As a Black TKD 5th dan,I have had MUCHO static slung my way for NOT being Korean.I mean...it's EXTRA BAD for Black folks,lol.What makes it worse is that I have half-Korean cousins and they tell me HORROR STORIES about how they were treated in Seoul before they came here.One of my sisters is Korean,and one of my daughters is 1/4 Korean.I remember for years that nobody would spar me because I was good and nobody would risk their reputation as a Master against me because they might lose to--well--the word translates as "ancient farm equipment" and it's an extremely derogatory reference to the slave history of Black people in the U.S.A.So nobody Korean gave me my dan,no Korean master came to my promotions,and I wasn't even accepted--TWICE--in tourneys run by Koreans as 3rd dan (back when I was a 3rd) because nobody believed that I actually received that rank.Right next to me? 4 White 3rd dans had NO PROBLEM being accepted,and if it wasn't for a White 5th dan vouching for me (thanks Scott) I wouldn't've even been able to PARTICIPATE AT ALL.


I was not amused.

2 years ago I finally sparred a Korean Master who was a high rank,dazzlingly skilled former South Korean national champion.Just before I stepped onto the mat with him,I learned that the only reason I was being allowed to spar with this man was because I was to be sharply and adroitly "punished" for "daring" to claim to hold rank that belongs only to "true Koreans" and not "shameful slaves".This knowledge from my ubiquitous secret informers was confirmed by the very first combination kick that was thrown by this skilled Korean,who just missed taking my head off with 2 kicks thrown in a 6 kick lightning combo which I barely managed to evade.Okay,he was coming for blood.These were full powered kicks that would break bones,not the "usual fare" hard kicks in sparring.

I proceeded to whoop his azz.

Punches,knees,elbows,slams,sweeps,traps,Kenpo hands,boxing,Judo and wrestling slams and throws,and...sweetest of all...I KO'd him with a full powered head kick that cracked against his skull from his left ear along his jawline to his chin.While standing over his crumpled,inert form I turned and faced the suddenly stone faced half circle of Korean Masters,bowed perfunctorily,and left.

Haven't heard or word nor seen hide nor hair of them since.

Interestingly,my very traditional Korean Hapkido Grandmaster...Grandmaster Chu...was TICKLED TO DEATH when he found out (I didn't tell him he somehow knew via the Korean grapevine) what happened,and he couldn't stop telling me how proud he was of me.I received my black from him THAT DAY,even though I hadn't learned all the forms of his unique blend of hapkido taekwondo hung gar kuk sool won and hwarangdo yet.However...even HE never came to my TKD black belt promotions.I didn't want to put him in some awkward position by asking him to come when I noted he didn't seem overly enthused at the prospect.

By the way my wife is black and the only US referee to the Olympics in China was black from our NW assocaition. I could share some good stories on PM about the Brothers in TKD. Back in the day early 70's in our Dojang a whole boat load of Koreans came in off a freighter to visit thinking they would kick our butts and we sent them bruized and tired home, to be fair they were out of shape from being on the water so long.

Happy to here from you

[Master Dan]

Damn good forum post 1400 views and 56 posts first day thats what MA talk is all about. Not a bunch of bickering about details but at the root of it Asians and non Asians?

Senior Master World Champion friend stated you know every art has been taken in by the non host country and made its own and improved. We have four decades of experience and no body can take that away on paper or claim a racial advantage over that.

It gets tiresome being descriminated against both in stature and financially? Its like you have a black friend your friends alone but roll up to the group you ain't family?

[clfsean]

Try getting a lion dance gig for Chinese New Year & there's not a single Chinese member of the team or school, except for my sifu's wife & kids who don't practice.

[punisher73]

While you're completely correct in your point, I remain convinced it was because I was whuppin his butt :ultracool

Mark



You are probably quite correct on that point. :asian:

I just meant that most people are ignorant of the martial arts if they don't study themselves, so due to stereotypes would assume that the asian person was the teacher just seeing the interaction of kata and not knowing what was really being done.

[ATACX GYM]

Try getting a lion dance gig for Chinese New Year & there's not a single Chinese member of the team or school, except for my sifu's wife & kids who don't practice.


What's CLF?

[clfsean]

What's CLF?

Choy Li Fut

[WC_lun]

I've witnessed a few instances of racism, but never been on the reieving end of it. For most guys, working and suffering along side someone in training tends to remove some of that nonense. Hard to judge that guy because he is brown when you respect him so much because you know what he is capable of. The worse that I have seen hasn't been racism but rather prejudice against an openly gay training partner.

[ATACX GYM]

I've witnessed a few instances of racism, but never been on the reieving end of it. For most guys, working and suffering along side someone in training tends to remove some of that nonense. Hard to judge that guy because he is brown when you respect him so much because you know what he is capable of. The worse that I have seen hasn't been racism but rather prejudice against an openly gay training partner.


I saw that too.Guys wouldn't grapple with a client of mine because he was gay.I jumped right on their cases.Hard.With both feet.Alot.Fired 4 of them,told them that until they change their attitude they're not welcome in my Gym.And I make it a point to grapple with my gay friend.He's cool.

[ATACX GYM]

Choy Li Fut


Thanks for the clarification,man!

[clfsean]

Thanks for the clarification,man!

You bet!