So, about those fancy jumping, spinning, and jump-spin kicks that some of us learn in certain arts: what do you think of them?

Are they a completely impractical waste of time?
Are they usable in a confrontation outside the dojo or ring?
Would you use them in a tournament?
Is there some value to practicing them?
Have you tried them, Sam I Am?

Let us know.

My personal bias is to keep my feet under me for as long as possible...especially now that I have such lousy degenerative disease in my knees...

...but, I learned and trained in the "fancier" kicks when I was younger...It certainly helps you develop a sense of distance, beacuse if you are off by a little bit, you'll go down...

...It is a tremendous aerobic workout...try tornado kicks across a gymnasium on one side and then back on the othjer side...if you aren't sucking wind, you are in tremendous shape (or you aren't doing the kick with everything you've got)...

My favorite kicks are front-snap kick, front heel-thrust kick, side-kick, and stopping-foot kick...not very glamorous, but effective, at least for me.

:asian:
chufeng

There are more practical ways to develope agility and timeing. And, from what I've seen, even in point sparing those super fancy kicks seldom work. In the real world they'll get you flamed.

They develop balance, strength, flexibility, agility, timing ... and they look damn good when done right.

We're martial ARTISTS after all . . . and if they are part of the heritage of your art, then you should be able to do them as well as you can.

My style has a few, and they are fun . . . but i'd never use a jumping one in a real fight. Some of the spinning ones, however, are a good way to gain a serious surprise factor. Front kick followed by a spinning side kick, for example, has gotten me more than few sparring matches.

If you're fast and accurate, they're a great surprise weapon. If you're off, you're going down.

So basically, I'd use them in the ring, but not in the street. I train them because they are part of the history of my style.

I voted maybe . . .


Why?

Because, you see if I know it in theory, then it helps me understand how it can be used against me.

Also, being a large guy, putting my foot upside or near someone's upper chest or head, makes them keep their hands up and respect the threat. THis then makes it so much easier to pull off the low line kicks, which I like so much more. :)

Just my opinion

:asian:

I'm in between with this poll.

I love fancy kicks. My school regularly practices them as well has the basic ones. I even do trick kicks. Great exercise, and they look great when done right :D But would I do them in a real fight? No. Even an untrained fighter can catch a "flying leg" and dump ya on your butt. It's a no-brainer." I'd stick with the low basic kicks in a real situation.

I'm a firm believer that "fancy kicking" is for agility and flexability, and that in a fight the kicks would be used under the belt.

But I've taken out an attacker using a high mawashigeri. I didn't even thin about it. The opening was there, and it just happened. So since I was flexible i could use it. If I wasn't I'd probably have used somthing else.

/Yari

Not sure about this one, they are great fun to do and they look great which I think are good enough reasons to train in them. But as for the practicalities as it stands at the moment I might use them in competition (that's a big maybe though) but I would never even think about using them in a real life situation.

But..... is that more to do with the fact that I'm not very good at them. I've seen martial artists do these techniques with devestating speed and power, would they use them in real life?

Personally I like a good head kick. Bend your opponent over and kick them in the head or better yet, Knock them to the ground and kick them. :D

Frankly I admire fancy athletic spinning and flying kicks. I don't believe they would be much good on the street (too much risk) but in the safe enviroment of the studio they are fun to watch. I'm sure they're good exercise and great coordination practice but I'm too old and need to keep my injuries to a minimum.

Jeff :boing2:

I'm with Chufeng and KenpoDoc.

I once saw Video of a TaiKai (or maybe it was Just a seminar) where a TaeKwondo Blackbelt did some fancy jump spinning kick and the Bujinkan Blackbelt standing there just sort of pulled him out of the air and slammed him onto the ground.

In the air with no foundation with the earth seems like a bad place to be in a fight. I think it looks good if you are doing some fancy Kata to a Musical number for points... If that's the focus of your training in those techniques, Go for it!

Originally posted by Technopunk
I once saw Video of a TaiKai (or maybe it was Just a seminar) where a TaeKwondo Blackbelt did some fancy jump spinning kick and the Bujinkan Blackbelt standing there just sort of pulled him out of the air and slammed him onto the ground.

In the air with no foundation with the earth seems like a bad place to be in a fight. I think it looks good if you are doing some fancy Kata to a Musical number for points... If that's the focus of your training in those techniques, Go for it!

No NO NO NO!

That is NOT the way things are as far as flying/jumping kicks are concerned. The momentum is already in force when you are airborne. You don't need the feet planted on the ground by then.

Just because that particular TKD Blackbelt got intercepted, does not in itself rebutts the utility of spinning kick.

It is mostly those who CANNOT perform such technique that tend to poo-poo the technique.

A spinning kick is a very powerful strike. One shot to the head and you are down for the count. Just like any other technique, you tend to use a combination of strikes to create a setup or entry then allow you to execute the "drive home" strike. You seldom just throw a jumping spining kick for the heck of it.

Originally posted by Kope ..... Front kick followed by a spinning side kick, for example, has gotten me more than few sparring matches. ...

What's a spinning side kick?

With the exception of a good stretch and great aerobic conditioning. Useles impo in a real fight.

:asian:

Originally posted by Zepp
Are they a completely impractical waste of time?

No, the kicks are good for a lot of various reasons and make a well rounded practictioner.

Are they usable in a confrontation outside the dojo or ring?

Most likely not. You must face your work and while jump/spinning you'd better hope you don't get caught in mid air.

Would you use them in a tournament?

Yes I have, and have scored from time to time. They can only be used 2 maybe 3 times and then you had better find something else.

Is there some value to practicing them?

Of course, Timing, and appreciating the power that comes with each kick should be learned.

Have you tried them, Sam I Am?

Yes, and I've stated my position on them.

The reason I hold that they are of little use in most real confrontations is personal observation. In all the uses-of-force I've had on-duty I have never once used any type of kick. I have however, used numerous knee spikes.

:asian:

"Training in them is good for agility and timing"

Voted for that one.

To ob2c, no, I can't think of any other way to improve agility and timing. The jumping kicks also develop power. Look at how other athletes in different sports. They consist of ballet, plyometrics, power and Olympic lifting, tai chi (just the exercises), and guess what... A lot of hip movement.

Chances of using a super jumping high kick in a real fight is slim. Very slim. I have used it a couple of times and it worked, but the only reason I even did that was I saw a huge opening and the both of us were very tired anyway. But again, in a fight, simplicity. Simplicity is the height of cultivation. But my motto goes, if you can kick high fast, you can kick low faster.

Using a jumping or fancy maneuver in fighting is like someone with the ball jumping in the air in football. You jump in the air, you have no force behind you. Then crack, you're on your back, wondering what happened. A lot of fumbles happen when the guy is in the air and gets drilled. The time comes where you do have to jump or hop, especially over those pesky defensive backs but all in all, it's rare. However, with fighting, the chances of using a jumping kick is even less than someone with the ball jumping in the air. Maybe as a touchdown dance you can jump around all you want, but jumping around after a victory in a street fight... Not a very smart or moral thing to do.

The only reason I even teach the people at the club high kicks is mainly for those reasons, for indirect training. It not only helps in combat, but in regular athletics as well. Correct plyometric training could shave .2 off your 40 yd. dash, make you be able to cut better, jump higher and explode in the air faster. Makes you explode off the blocks, it helps your balance, it helps your coordination.

Oh yeah, they look cool, but that's not the main reason. It's kinda a thing you can do just to forget about everything. For instance, almost all college and NBA basketball teams have a "fun" practice once in a while, maybe after a big win, or for the first practice of the season. When I lived in Chicago (when the Bulls were good), they would have fancy slam dunk contests, full-court buzzer shot contests, etc. How many times do you see anyone doing a double-pump, between the legs, reverse dunk near the key in a game? Or a desperation shot from full court? But any sane teacher will make one thing obvious = Not for combat

in a street fight there is absolutely no use for high kicks, in a tournament situation thats another story

thanks

terry

I am reading a lot of crap in this thread.

If high kicks and flying kicks can be successfully used in the ring, against well trained, well experienced opponents who are definitely better at defending against such attacks, HOW THE HELL they can't be used on the street against Joe Budlight 6-pack?

If you can't kick to the head and take someone down, then just speak for yourself. ;)

Uh huh :rolleyes:

And your firsthand, realworld applications would be....

Many of us have been in harm's way, seen the white elephant and been involved in realworld altercations. This is why we know that Hollywood and the street are two different animals. 'Pretty' doesn't cut it.

But I digress...what were your realworld examples of flashy kicks working against street thugs, violent felons......

:asian:

instead of kicking to the head, I'd rather kick to the knee and make damn sure he can't follow me.

The problem with teaching people high kicks is that often times its done in a self defense format rather than a purely sport format. You can't teach people that its acceptable to attempt to use kicks like this in the street. You're way too easy to take down. Its a pointless risk.

I see no harm in teaching people the kicks as "exercises to develop speed and timing" or "just because they look cool." However, they're not good for self defense. A streetfight is a down and dirty place where you want both feet on the ground.

Originally posted by Tigertron
I am reading a lot of crap in this thread.

If high kicks and flying kicks can be successfully used in the ring, against well trained, well experienced opponents who are definitely better at defending against such attacks, HOW THE HELL they can't be used on the street against Joe Budlight 6-pack?

If you can't kick to the head and take someone down, then just speak for yourself. ;)
Well, the difference is because of the conditions.

In relatively "safe" conditions compared to a street fight, you have a lot more leniency to try moves that people aren't expecting. In a street fight... Another story. Fighting in the ring is different than fighting on the street and it always will be, pure and simple. Ring fighters can without a doubt defend themselves on the streets, but their tactical momentum will be a bit different, see what I'm getting at? Like running. Running for sport, and running to actually get away from something. The same thing, but a bit different.

Originally posted by MartialArtist
To ob2c, no, I can't think of any other way to improve agility and timing. The jumping kicks also develop power. Look at how other athletes in different sports. They consist of ballet, plyometrics, power and Olympic lifting, tai chi (just the exercises), and guess what... A lot of hip movement.

MA, while I respect your opinion, and don't argue that fancy high kicks develope timeing and agility, I still have to disagree.

I study Tai Chi Chuan fa, and it does develope both. It also teaches me to only move my hips a lot when I want something else to move a lot. But aside from that, there are a lot of drills that teach power, agility and timeing in the things that matter- defending against attacks, bridging and entries, footwork, etc. Sparing, or doing techniques at street force and speed (but with control) also develope these. Why waste time training something you say (and I agree) is too dangerous and unreliable in a real fight?

I have no problem with those who do martial arts for sport, or who think they look cool, useing these kicks. But the question of whether they are practical is a resounding NO!

By the way, I didn't say they can't work. I work out regularly with a bunch of TKD folks (notorious kickers, the rotters!). I've taken enough boots to the head to develope a grudging respect for them. But, more often by far, they go down in flames when they try it.

Ok, time for my 1.5 cents:

Holy crap! Someone actually used a jumping or spiinign kick in a street fight?! I just put that "Saved my life" choice on the poll as a joke! :rofl: Yari, just what exactly is a high mawashigeri?

As for the usefulness of jumping and/or spinning kicks, I agree with most of you that they are taught as a means of improving one's agility (coordination and balance included) and sense of timing. I also liked Kope's post. The word "art" was added to martial for a reason.

As far as using them in a tournament: I think of them as sucker kicks. If your timing is off, or your opponent sees it coming, you're the sucker.

In a real fight, I think you'd have to be pretty delusional to try jumping or spinning at all.

I think I need to add that this doesn't mean simply kicking to the head. We're talking about fancy kicks here: spinning hooks, jumping front kicks, tornado kicks, etc. Throwing a simple front kick or sidekick to the head is a great way to end a fight quickly if you've been trained to do it and your opponent isn't ready.

But in the interests of staying on topic, we're talking about the complex stuff. Some good posts so far- keep 'em comin'.

In any given situation, look at what is useful, unuseful, and useless. Make the base of your art (ie what you practice the most) those things which you find most useful. In some situations, a jumping-spinning-outward-cresent kick may be useful. However, in most situations it probably wont be so allocate the time you work on them accordingly.

Originally posted by ob2c
MA, while I respect your opinion, and don't argue that fancy high kicks develope timeing and agility, I still have to disagree.

I study Tai Chi Chuan fa, and it does develope both. It also teaches me to only move my hips a lot when I want something else to move a lot. But aside from that, there are a lot of drills that teach power, agility and timeing in the things that matter- defending against attacks, bridging and entries, footwork, etc. Sparing, or doing techniques at street force and speed (but with control) also develope these. Why waste time training something you say (and I agree) is too dangerous and unreliable in a real fight?

I have no problem with those who do martial arts for sport, or who think they look cool, useing these kicks. But the question of whether they are practical is a resounding NO!

By the way, I didn't say they can't work. I work out regularly with a bunch of TKD folks (notorious kickers, the rotters!). I've taken enough boots to the head to develope a grudging respect for them. But, more often by far, they go down in flames when they try it.
Why train in things that are dangerous? Because it helps you reach a newer level.

Your strength will improve by doing bodyweight exercises, but if you want to get stronger, faster, you have to hit the weights. Same with fighting speed. You can get faster by doing things at full speed, but sooner or later, you'll have to have some sort of plyometric program added if you want to be a bit faster. Boxers just don't practice at full speed to be able to punch faster and just do drills. They have a lot of scientific processes they go through, with just the right amount of rest and training for their individual bodies. Same thing.

Another example? You can gain power from bag training. But you'll have to supplement it with learning perfect technique, some strength training, speed training, and plyometric training again to achieve maximum power.

Another example? Jumping. NBA basketball players just don't jump as high as they can. They have resistance and power training to supplement it.

How do they relate to speed in real life? Doing a lot of high kicks makes you more proficient in high kicks. Being fast with high kicks means you are even faster with low kicks. Why the jumping around? That's obvious. If you find any way to improve running speed, jumping ability, and the other athletic qualities dealing with power or speed other than plyometric training, CNS training, strength and power training, etc., then I'm all ears. Again, we're just talking about the physical aspect of speed and power.

Originally posted by Zepp
Ok, time for my 1.5 cents:

Holy crap! Someone actually used a jumping or spiinign kick in a street fight?! I just put that "Saved my life" choice on the poll as a joke! :rofl: Yari, just what exactly is a high mawashigeri?

As for the usefulness of jumping and/or spinning kicks, I agree with most of you that they are taught as a means of improving one's agility (coordination and balance included) and sense of timing. I also liked Kope's post. The word "art" was added to martial for a reason.

As far as using them in a tournament: I think of them as sucker kicks. If your timing is off, or your opponent sees it coming, you're the sucker.

In a real fight, I think you'd have to be pretty delusional to try jumping or spinning at all.

I think I need to add that this doesn't mean simply kicking to the head. We're talking about fancy kicks here: spinning hooks, jumping front kicks, tornado kicks, etc. Throwing a simple front kick or sidekick to the head is a great way to end a fight quickly if you've been trained to do it and your opponent isn't ready.

But in the interests of staying on topic, we're talking about the complex stuff. Some good posts so far- keep 'em comin'.
Well, if you were fighting in 0 gravity, maybe those spining kicks will help :rofl:

In the 1950's, Olympic lifters (Olympic lifts being the clean, snatch, etc.) were able to beat Olympic sprinters in the 30-50m? dash. The 1950's was before the time sprinters did not do any supplemental training... They just sprinted. Might have done a few things here and there, but nothing like today's sprinters. Nowadays, Olympic lifters will get killed by sprinters in a race of any distance, as the sprinters now do a lot of explosive training, strength and resistance training, and a whole arsenal of things to do.


drsquat.com - Read the articles on Olympic lifting


You don't get to be a sprinter by jogging around a track. You sprint. But to reach a higher level, you must add to it. You have to run at a short decline to develop your nervous system/muscle memory, box jump, depth jump, lunge jump, squat... You get the picture. To be more agile and faster, one must not only do the moves at full speed while mantaining flexibility and the other aspects of fitness, but you do have to jump around.

One thing sprinters do is jump, and lots of it. Jumping has nothing to do with sprinting directly, you can't win a race by jumping around. That's not the point. You can say it's dangerous (in terms of your results) to jump in a race, just as it's dangerous to try to do a lot of high kicks in a fight. But the sprinter and the fighter should know, and they are responsible for knowing it if their instructor tells them repeatedly, to not use high fancy kicks. Most of it is logic.

i'll add my 2 cents ok if you are standing at a bar and this person comes up and ( for what ever reason) he wants to punch you in the face, now mine you he's standing right next to you, i tell you it will be hard to kick this person anywhere ie: ax kick,front kick,
sidekick,WHY? because he's to close to you.
i'm not saying i don't like kicks, i think they have there place as to when to use a kick.
i never kick to the face it's useless if it's a street fight( real world)
the only way i would kick to the face is when the person is on his hands and knees, ED PARKER.:asian:

yours in kenpo

MA, fair enough. I think we'll just have to leave it at a disagreement that isn't worth an argument. If you enjoy training it and it benifits you, which seems to be the case, then I say good on you. I prefer a more pragmatic approach. We do agree in the main area of concern. That is that they are dangerous to the kicker in a real fight. That, by the way, is what the TKD school I work out with teaches as well. They do the high stuff for tournaments and exhibitions. But they also teach a 'Freestyle TKD' which, at times, starts looking more like a predominantly hard Kenpo than TKD. Their problem is, being TKDers, they just can't resist an occasional purty high kick...:D .

Originally posted by lonekimono
if you are standing at a bar and this person comes up and ( for what ever reason) he wants to punch you in the face, now mine you he's standing right next to you, i tell you it will be hard to kick this person anywhere ie: ax kick,front kick,
sidekick,WHY? because he's to close to you.

lonekimono, are you forgeting about kicks to his base? Knee strikes can be thought of as short kicks, or the first part of a kick. Scoop kicks to his groin. Shovel kicks. Heel hooks to his kidneys or, more likely, as a sweep. And a good kicker can deliver a full power side kick from so close in you wouldn't believe it. And in close kicks are hidden moves as well. Don't short your in close arsenal by discounting kicks. In close, AK is extremely effective with its' kicks.

well ob2c i know about the kicks you are talking about , but you have got to show me HOW you will do a kick to the midsection
while standing at a bar while other people are standing next to you? now i know you can kick to the leg but why?
this is KENPO and this is all i know kenpo is my MOTHER ART
for the last 38 years, but i still can learn from anyone.
:p we are all on the same path;) .


yours in kenpo:asian:

i have seen and been involved in over 50 street fights and have never seen high kicks to the head or arms...... also even when sparring against taekwondo guys and kickboxers in a mma stting they have never kicked high but this is from my own personal experience


thanks

terry

way to go TERRY

yours in kenpo:D

that was thanks (no thanks) to bouncing in my first 3 years of university

Originally posted by Zepp
Ok, time for my 1.5 cents:

Yari, just what exactly is a high mawashigeri?




Roundhouse kick would probably be the correct term. And I kicked my own headhight, which is 1.92 cm. He went rollong across the ground after that. I hope he ate soup for the next three months after that.


/Yari

if you train correctly there should be no way he can get a head kick to land on ya

Originally posted by MartialArtist
In the 1950's, Olympic lifters (Olympic lifts being the clean, snatch, etc.) were able to beat Olympic sprinters in the 30-50m? dash. The 1950's was before the time sprinters did not do any supplemental training... They just sprinted. Might have done a few things here and there, but nothing like today's sprinters. Nowadays, Olympic lifters will get killed by sprinters in a race of any distance, as the sprinters now do a lot of explosive training, strength and resistance training, and a whole arsenal of things to do.

Do you have any articles or vids on this? It sounds interesting.

lonekimono, after 38 years in Kenpo, you should be showing me! Maybe I'm not understanding you here, but a couple of statements lead me to think that you are saying no kicks will work in close.

Originally posted by lonekimono
if you are standing at a bar and this person comes up and ( for what ever reason) he wants to punch you in the face, now mine you he's standing right next to you, i tell you it will be hard to kick this person anywhere.

now i know you can kick to the leg but why?

Am I misreading what you said? AK trains not only in close kicks, but leg checks as well as stances used as weapons. It's an awesome in close art, due in large part to its' lower body attacks. Are you saying you prefer these other attacks, or that kicks will not work in close?

As for side kicking the guy at the bar who's in your face, you should be able to position yourself at 45' to him even if you can't move back. I wouldn't stand nose to nose with anyone under those circumstances. If, say, his hands come up and you know it's on, make your block a simultaneous finger strike to his eyes. This should get his attention above your kick. (This is just an example. Point is to set him up.) As the hands go up, bring the lead knee to a high chamber. Then execute a thrusting side kick , pivoting the base foot and getting plenty of hip into it. Of course, you are going to anger a lot of people as he makes a large hole in the crowd. I'm not saying this is a good thing to do in this situation. I'm just answering your question- how would I sidekick someone in a crowded bar. A thrusting side kick can be delivered to the midsection at full extension and power from extremely close. The purpose is more to move him either out of your way or into something as it's more of a powerful push. I originally learned this from a couple of TKD guys who could put you through a wall with it if they wanted. But it is in Kenpo as well.

But yeah, although rare, I've seen quite a few kicks to the head. From sport MA tourneys, to NHB tourneys, to street fights. Although rare, if you see a huge opening as in the guy's arms are down, the guy's drunk or dizzy, etc. And most of the time, the guy was leaning forward as if he was about to fall over and was snooping down, making the execution a lot easier to perform since his elevation is lower. A solid kick to the head is enough for a KO. That is if you solidly land it. I don't suggest you trying to do KO kicks, that's not the point. The point is that some people might be able to pull it off, but that some people is not the majority. And the kick was non-telegraphed, the kick was very fast and swift, and was followed by a feint and some footwork at 30-45 degree angles or so and or hopping forward or backwards to get into the right position, distance, and using good footwork can make it so the person has a less of a chance of defending himself since his angle is bad in comparison to the opponents.

Again, they were rare, and I've only did it once or twice in a fight where the guy was prepared (as in not intoxicated, not tired, or anything) and they were due to luck. That was way back then. After that, I just couldn't risk it.

ok lets try this KENPO is like playing pool,
#1: if you are standing at a bar with alot of people around and this guy comes up to you and wants to fight, if he is looking right into your eyes and he puts his hands up to do something? you DO NOT have to kick this man remember the last movment in STAR BLOCK? the palm block right? was is that used for?
well we know that it can be used for a knee stirke.
so now we take your own knee and right into the old bongos, with that he will bend over and the rest you can work it out.
but what i did was set him up for the next shot.
and i will say this again "i think kicks have there place"
i hope you understand this:asian:

yours in kenpo

yeah i guess it could happen but that depends on the skill of the victim (the person yr kicking)

Originally posted by ob2c
.I'm not saying this is a good thing to do in this situation. I'm just answering your question- how would I sidekick someone in a crowded bar.

lonekimono, I think we agree on whether or not you should use this in a crowded bar. I suppose if you wanted to quickly put him into a booth on top of his friends, maybe. There are still better options though. I was just working off your example to illustrate how you *could* execute an in close side kick.

GOT IT:D

you guys have been watching to many of JCVD movies

I agree way to much T.V.!!!!!:asian:


I do practice some so called fancy kick's once in a while they help me with balance, coordination, depth perception and its also a great cardio workout.

For competition such as sparring and forms i could see its use but for street fight its pretty much useless. :asian:


:goop:

I think they are good for learning timing, and deveoping power. If you can correctly deliver a high kick to a moving target, then it should be much easier to deliver a low, penetrating kick to disable the other guy.

We give them eyes, but they do not see.:( time is the best teacher.

I am not one for fancy kicks...and I would definitely NOT use any on the streets in a real conflict. However, in the ring/octagon, I have seen them pay off. When I was managing some NHB fighters a while back, one of them landed a spinning sidekick, SOLIDLY, on his opponent. This was against the local superstar and in his first pro match! So yeah, they can work, but don't risk it in the street.

i like what you had to say:D it's people like you that DON'T make my head hurt:shrug: :cool:

When I was managing some NHB fighters a while back, one of them landed a spinning sidekick, SOLIDLY, on his opponent.

who was your fighter

what division? and which tournament was this?

His name is Donald Comely. I believe it was a Pankration style bout. It was in Indiana. You might be able to track his name down on an old Dangerzone archive. He fought there in 2000, I believe.

i dont mind doing them, and actually enjoy learning them but as far as real combat goes i would not perform them. usually a fight will last 30 seconds or so. you need to perform the moves that work fast and the best for you. who has time for a jump 360 degree back spinning double hook kick????

hi geoff

how did donald go in the tournament?

do you still train mma fighters??

thanks

terry

Terry,

If you're asking how Donald did in the tournament, he lost the fight in which he threw that kick, eliminating him. As I mentioned, it was his first pro fight and he was sort of thrust into going pro that night.
If you were asking how he got in the tournament, the MMA and NHB scene is easy to break into and you can fight on the circuit relatively unknown for years, even if you are winning.
This is probably not the thread to discuss this on, however, so PM or email me if you have anymore questions.

P.S. I haven't even trained in over two years, let alone training or managing any fighters. The management thing was short-lived anyhow. It took up a lot of my time....time better spent with my family.


geoffrey

thanks geoff

yes we have those mma circuits here in australia,

what, no training in two years you must be itching to come back to training.....

but family does come first


thanks man

terry

Originally posted by moromoro
thanks geoff

yes we have those mma circuits here in australia,

what, no training in two years you must be itching to come back to training.....

but family does come first


thanks man

terry


Itching isn't the word. I am downright crawling out of my skin to get back to training. Unfortunately, I have burned out my son and wife on the whole martial arts thing, so they won't train with me.:wah:

I think I may have tracked down a local guy that can play once a week, but we haven't been able to get our schedules to jive yet.

geoffrey

The flash kicks are fantastic for teaching younger students the reasons for the base kicks...... side step and hard block two or three times and the stop the flash in the pan and gor for the solidly grounded instead!

Good for excercise, yetthe amount of people I've flattened in pubs or clubs that have tried a Van Dam on me...! You see them atleast 1 whole second before impact, plenty of time!
(though when they do land one on you - ouch! LOADS OF PAIN!)

Oops - forgot..... we found that if you pactice your kicks high, you get better excercise and thus improve your lower kicks, (anything above the waist is flashy to me! LOL)... I train so my Kin Geri is to head height, Keage and kekomi (yoko and mea) are both to the chest.... when sparring or fighting, I go for the hips and knees! Lots more power and flow since I started training for the higher kicks! As for all the jumping stuff... I found they are brilliant for one thing... sore ankles! LOL

Still, good to practice, naff for use!

My opinion:

Not my style, though I am sure that they have a use for some.

No offense, but if you ask Kenpo people if high, jumping, or spinning kicks work outside, what do you think the answer will be?
They don't really practice them, and it is not a major part of their style. If you practice them on a consistant basis, you will eventually understand how to do them well, how you can apply them, and their limitations.
I am not saying high kicks always are the way to go, but they can and do work IF you practice them correctly.
Personally, I would rather do a middle or high kick than a knee kick any day. Reason being the torso and head contain numerous vital spots that can cause serious injury or death. You just have to when and how to attack them. The knee contains no vital spots, other than having to attack it at the right angle. It can be used in a checking technique (a la Koryo). But as far as doing damage, I'll stick with middle and high kicks.
Anyway, if I'm close enough to do a knee kick, I'm close enough to use an elbow strike or some other hand technique.

No offense, but if you ask Kenpo people if high, jumping, or spinning kicks work outside, what do you think the answer will be?
They don't really practice them, and it is not a major part of their style. If you practice them on a consistant basis, you will eventually understand how to do them well, how you can apply them, and their limitations.
I am not saying high kicks always are the way to go, but they can and do work IF you practice them correctly.
Personally, I would rather do a middle or high kick than a knee kick any day. Reason being the torso and head contain numerous vital spots that can cause serious injury or death. You just have to when and how to attack them. The knee contains no vital spots, other than having to attack it at the right angle. It can be used in a checking technique (a la Koryo). But as far as doing damage, I'll stick with middle and high kicks.
Anyway, if I'm close enough to do a knee kick, I'm close enough to use an elbow strike or some other hand technique.

First off, being a Kenpo guy, no offense taken! Aside from that...good post! As I've said before, all kicks, strikes, etc. have their time and place. It all comes down to knowing when that time and place is.

Mike

I haven’t read this whole thread, but here are my thoughts.

On occasion we train fancy, jumping, spinning, flying kicks etc....we don’t really train them in a real life sense, just for fun really. As well as agility etc, I find it works wonders on my confidence. I’m only a beginner and when we play around with fancy kicks, you will often see most people in the class start off slow and cautious, small jumps, not kicking to hard, afraid of falling over etc....then after a while, we're jumping, twisting, flying, kicking hard, with big dumb smiles on our faces...lol....its a lot of fun, and can be quite a work out too.

Only when i am showing off to my little brother and sister or friends and family I will do "fancy" techniques, but in a real fight.....not my cup o' tea

Showing off = Playing around

I never show off saying, "Oh I'am the best there ever was" Because there are people that can beat me and I respect those that can as well as the ones that can not. Respect and honor is what I am all about, I only show off/play around when its with little kids showing them a spinning jump kick or something. Or with my friends with a Twi-Te or something like that. When they ask me what i have been learning in MA class I show them something thats a little flashy and they enjoy it. now if i broke down the way I do m stances and told them about it. I don't think they will ejoy it very much.

Not my style, but I know 3 guys who they work well for, but only 1 really uses them a lot. I never cared for fancy kicks, most of the time maybe you can get 1 off, but after that they are easy to read. High kicks have never been my style either, I don't trust them. The way I see it, is there is too much distance for the foot to travel from the ground to the head, when my fists are much closer. My kicks stay from the mid section down, I mostly use kicks to keep people at bay.

Not my style, but I know 3 guys who they work well for, but only 1 really uses them a lot. I never cared for fancy kicks, most of the time maybe you can get 1 off, but after that they are easy to read. High kicks have never been my style either, I don't trust them. The way I see it, is there is too much distance for the foot to travel from the ground to the head, when my fists are much closer. My kicks stay from the mid section down, I mostly use kicks to keep people at bay.
I am in agreement with you there, I read a story about a person from a Korean art (not knocking Korean arts by the way) who challenged Mister Parker to kick him in the head, whereby he swept his feet out from under him and put his foot on his face...
My take on this is why try to get my foot up to someones head, when his groin is closer, and will in turn bring his head down to my foot...

My opinion of the higher level Korean-style kicks is this: aside from the fact that, under the right conditions, they do have uses and do work, we practice these kicks for another reason. One of the hallmarks of Tae Kwon Do and Korean arts is to constantly test yourself and see what the body is capable of. If all you focus on is low or mid level kicks because you perceive high kicks as being useless, you will never see what you are capable of. Tae Kwon Do is more than just being concerned with self defense. We practice jumping, flying, spinning, jump-spinning, and other kicks to to see if we can do them, regardless of whether or not we will ever be able to use them in a self defense situation.
This is one reason why I consider RBSD so limiting. It only concerns itself with one narrow aspect of martial arts training, instead of being a total package. The human body and mind are beautiful things, and traditional martial arts gives us a chance to see exactly what this wonderful machine is capable of. Kind of like bying a car strictly to get you from point A to point B. You get this stripped down model that is strictly utilitarian that is no fun to own.
If you only focus on low and middle kicks, or only kicking to the knee for self defense, you are severely limiting yourself.

I think it's funny calling high kicks "fancy". In Taekwondo, anything to the chest and up is normal and that includes spinning and jumping. It's the flying triple kick over three people, the rebound breaks like a double front rebound then jump spin heel, the throw up three boards and hit/break them all one at a time or all at once, those are the fancy kicks to us. Taekwondo, in my opinion raises the bar to what the body can do..like Mich.TKD said. We normally kick over the head, those are not "fancy" except to people who don't practice them and don't have the capability.

BTW I didn't vote, 'cause none of those applied. TW

So forgive me if I'm repeating something.. these high, jumping, spinning kicks kicks were developed in early Northern China so that warriors on foot could counter Mongol horsemen. I don't see too many of those around today so I don't train in these kicks. In fact excepting the explosive shuffling flat footwork for forward moving attack kicks (low line) and a few scissor kicks, my off-foot is generally planted when I kick, and they do not go higher than the ribs or heart area (Savate) Usually much lower, like the knee or groin (Pananjakman, Wing Chun) I have only sparred with one guy who I could not trap every time (using Praying Mantis concepts, Aikido can work here also) He managed to get two good head kicks in..out of many tried that I trapped. He was blazingly fast and very powerful. And I always put these kickers on the ground when they tried the high kicks, they leave you wide open and vulnerable. Won't work on the street against most seasoned attackers.

The knee contains no vital spots, other than having to attack it at the right angle.


MJS, dude.. if I oblique kick http://www.bruceleecentral.com/jeetkunedomasterclass1.htm someone in the knee, head on you will most likely hear first a "crack" or Crunch" followed by screaming and them going down on the spot. I target the knee if possible, not the shin. I've had my knee taken out if a sparring ring and it was the end of any chance to continue fighting. I was not able to run again for a year and it could have been worse. I needed a cane for a month. Knees are a top target for JKD folks (and other pure arts) because it's a serious destruction and disabler. In addition if you want to escape this will be your chance.. they won't chase you with a seriously damaged knee, I could barely stand, my leg felt like rubber!

So forgive me if I'm repeating something.. these high, jumping, spinning kicks kicks were developed in early Northern China so that warriors on foot could counter Mongol horsemen. I don't see too many of those around today so I don't train in these kicks..
Perhaps originally, but I think many of the fancy kicks practiced today in many TKD dojang are of relatively recent origin. Also, the Mike Chats of the world are always looking to improve on what they can do-pretty inspiring stuff. If you are simply training for self-defense, why not just carry a gun?

And I always put these kickers on the ground when they tried the high kicks, they leave you wide open and vulnerable. Won't work on the street against most seasoned attackers.
Most fully-committed attacks or defenses, will mean that you are wide open and vulnerable. For example, in football, if the defense is blitzing the quarterback, it generally means they either sack him or suffer a completed pass (Go Pats!). Whether you are kicking someone in the head or the groin means your own groin is open.

Miles

OK, a few points: Not every self defense situation allows for lethal force! In fact most do not. I don't want to end up in prison with the bad guys, thank you.. hence I train in real world combative arts, including restraint and energy control-channeling arts, like Dumog for instance. I do carry at least one handgun, and sometimes two or three, (backups) depending. But that's no indication that I will use them, the situation is what warrants the measured response. Have I used less lethal techniques when armed? yes, several times.

The way we JKD folks get around the vulnerability aspect you mention? Well, there are numerous ways to do this but one way that works nicely in many encounters is the high-low-high of Praying Mantis (and a few other arts have this concept, like Panantukman) this confuses the attacker as to what's next and overwhelms them, theoretically. it gets them thinking more about defense and why the heck did I get into this? mentality. When you seek to enter trapping range ...

(where we want to fight because no other arts train to fight there, here's more info: http://www.icmaua.com/Journal2005.htm (http://www.icmaua.com/Journal2005.htm) )
Excerpt:
Jeet Kune Do teaches you to be comfortable in all ranges. One learns to accommodate to the situation. Lee says “Be like water. It is insubstantial. It assumes the shape of the bowl.” Thus the JKD man fights and adapts to Long weapons range, Kicking, Punching, Knee-Elbow-Trapping, Grappling & Groundwork ranges. He also is the master of entry & Exit into & from all ranges




and we then get a "destruction" (could be a good eye jab, gunting muscle and/or nerve destruction, etc..) then with that reaction and disabling shot we can enter trapping range, maybe straight blast them backwards with the flurry of vertical fists, and then is when we deliver something like an oblique kick as a finishing shot. You don't start out with it, it's part of a progressive attack (either direct or indirect)

MJS, dude.. if I oblique kick http://www.bruceleecentral.com/jeetkunedomasterclass1.htm someone in the knee, head on you will most likely hear first a "crack" or Crunch" followed by screaming and them going down on the spot. I target the knee if possible, not the shin. I've had my knee taken out if a sparring ring and it was the end of any chance to continue fighting. I was not able to run again for a year and it could have been worse. I needed a cane for a month. Knees are a top target for JKD folks (and other pure arts) because it's a serious destruction and disabler. In addition if you want to escape this will be your chance.. they won't chase you with a seriously damaged knee, I could barely stand, my leg felt like rubber!

AC- I think you misunderstood a post. The quote that you have here was not from me, but from MichTKD. Check out post #62.

As for the low kicks... you and I are thinking the same here. Personally speaking, I'm more of a low line kicker. I have a few guys that I workout with who are into JKD. I definately can see the value of the lower kicks.

Mike

Sorry if I quoted you wrongly, bro.. Fred is quoting Sam, who is quoting Amy in this thread! :idunno: peace, Steve :asian:

Not a problem my friend. :asian: :ultracool

Mike

It's good to see this thread revived again. I just want to clarify one thing however. When I used the term "fancy kicks" in the initial post of this thread, I didn't mean high kicks. I intended this thread to be about kicks that involved jumping, spinning, or some combination of the two. :) Just in case anyone was wondering.