What is a mcdojo?

[bjonson]

My new to martial talk and I hear a lot about mcdojos and I was just wandering what a mcdojo is?

[Xue Sheng]

A dojo run by this guy (http://hissweetheart.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/ronald_mcdonald_jumping1.jpg) :D

[Steve]

My new to martial talk and I hear a lot about mcdojos and I was just wandering what a mcdojo is?There are different definitions, but the short answer is that it's a school which focuses more on making money than on teaching quality martial arts.

There are McDojos out there with very good instruction, but the general implication is that the quality is often questionable.

Some symptoms of a mcdojo are contracts, excessive fees, compulsory belt testings and/or "seminars", automatic promotions, black belt clubs and other things along these lines.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Mcdojo-A place in which a dojo becomes commercial like Mcdonalds in which everything is done as a cookie cut fashion for profit over material taught.

Mcdojo's are popular forms of awarding rank based on pay rather skill demostrated giving rise to the famous 8yr old black belts.

[Bill Mattocks]

My new to martial talk and I hear a lot about mcdojos and I was just wandering what a mcdojo is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDojo

Wikipedia knows everything! I was amazed to find this there!

[bjonson]

Thank you all for your input.

[terryl965]

A Mc dojo is a place where you can get a black belt in a year with only two classes a week.

[Guardian]

My new to martial talk and I hear a lot about mcdojos and I was just wandering what a mcdojo is?

It's a name given to a School or Place of Practice by those who either don't like what they see or don't want that type of place around. While it may not be the most acceptable or most honorable type of training establishment to learn a Martial Art, it's still a place to learn and that's the most basic essense of the whole thing.

Mcdojo's service a purpose, it might not be what some perceive as the truest form of the MAs or Schools, but they do serve a purpose to those who can't find anything else in their areas.

Stevebjj gave a decent description of a Mcdojo that one can get without being overally negative about it.

[geezer]

It's a name given to a School or Place of Practice by those who either don't like what they see...

Stevebjj gave a decent description of a Mcdojo that one can get without being overally negative about it.

Excuse me, but the term is inherently negative. Nobody proudly calls their own school a McDojo. Some might argue that a standardised, franchised school can still offer a quality product. They might even admire the McDonald's Corp. business model... but they aren't going to embrace the term Mc Dojo! It implies an over-priced, poor quality, pre-packaged MA "product" watered down for mass consumption by kiddies and undiscriminating adults. And if that's all you can find, well OK. Like you said it's a start. You can survive by eating at McDonald's too. I just wouldn't make it my core diet.

[Flying Crane]

Excuse me, but the term is inherently negative. Nobody proudly calls their own school a McDojo. Some might argue that a standardised, franchised school can still offer a quality product. They might even admire the McDonald's Corp. business model... but they aren't going to embrace the term Mc Dojo! It implies an over-priced, poor quality, pre-packaged MA "product" watered down for mass consumption by kiddies and undiscriminating adults. And if that's all you can find, well OK. Like you said it's a start. You can survive by eating at McDonald's too. I just wouldn't make it my core diet.


Well, I've seen it said by seniors in the various Kenpo methods that trace back to Ed Parker, that Mr. Parker embraced the idea of a "McDonalds-like" standardized and consistent system where everything was taught the same way in every related and connected school. There is even some acknowledgement, at least by some, that the product being taught was arguably of a poorer quality, or at least the METHODS of training and teaching that allowed for the standardization lead ultimately to a martial artist with skills and knowledge of less high quality. Apparently Mr. Parker felt this was an acceptable tradeoff to be able to make training available to a wider public. I don't know if he actually embraced the word "McDojo", however.

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

So, in a way, it depends on what you're looking for, according to Ed Parker, top notch knowledge from a rare school, or anything you want to learn from a less efficient school. For lack of better words, that is.

[just2kicku]

When you say "supersize" me at sign up and get your black belt on the first day. Might be a McDojo. :erg:

[Flying Crane]

well, it does become something of a slippery slope.

Once you decide that it's "OK" to teach something inferior to make it more widely accessible, where do you draw the line? How widely accessible to you want it to be, and how low are you willing to make the standards in order to reach that goal?

And is this decision driven primarily (or entirely) by money, and the desire for lots of said same?

Personally, I don't like the idea.

[geezer]

...how low are you willing to make the standards in order to reach that goal? And is this decision driven primarily (or entirely) by money, and the desire for lots of said same?

Personally, I don't like the idea.

How low??? OK, Here's something I just came across. The local Mc Dojo in my neighborhood strip mall was suddenly vacant, its store front empty. No mats, no posters, no more five-foot tall plastic trophies, and no more hoards of kiddie black belts swarming into the sandwich shop next door when I'm trying to have a nice quiet lunch. And not even a note in the window explaining what had happened. Broke? Moved? Busted for dealing drugs? Who knows! So I went on line and checked out their web site. Sorry, I got no answers as to why they were closed, but I did find this.

Apparently they specialized in birthday, holiday and special occasion parties, including sleep-overs. The magician is out of town? Can't book a clown for your kiddie's party? Well, you can hire one of their crack team of blackbelts to fill the occasion!!! And kids think clowns are scary.

Personally, I can't think of a better way to dignify the considerable time many of us have spent developing our skills than to host kiddie parties and entertain a couple of dozen screaming tykes all juiced up on cake and ice cream. Good Lord! Maybe the school didn't go broke. Maybe all the instructors just killed themselves.

[Bruno@MT]

And kids think clowns are scary.


And they are right of course. Clowns are downright evil. They are worse than zombies, and should be treated thus.

[Daniel Sullivan]

My new to martial talk and I hear a lot about mcdojos and I was just wandering what a mcdojo is?
The term McDojo refers to a business model that is similar to that of McDonalds.

The business model is used by a lot of schools and is fairly formulaic, which is its main resemblence to McDonalds.

A McDojo business model is good for three things: turning profits, bringing in young students, and standardizing curriculum.

None of those things are, in and of themselves bad, though it does represent a level of commercialism. Often, the training of the students is secondary to profitability, thus the training is often likened to McDonalds' foot; looks good and tastey, but of little nutritional value. Note that I say often, not always.

Typical McDojo features are:

*Monthly dues in excess of a hundred dollars
*Lengthy (a year or more) binding contracts
*Direct debit of monthly fees
*Requirements to purchase all gear from the school
*Various clubs and programs that cost extra
*Ascending fees for promotions and a lot of belts.
*Automatic promotion up to and including black belt, regardless of skill
*Rapid ascent to blackbelt
*Seminars, either required or strongly suggested

None of these things by itself makes a school a McDojo. If a school is a McDojo, please keep in mind what I said earlier: McDojo is a business model and reflects a level of commercialism, not quality or lack of quality in training. Some McDojo schools have very good instruction.

Of course, some have lousy instruction, but so too do some "traditional" schools. Lousy schools have existed long before the McDojo model existed. No matter how traditional the trappings of a school are, if the instruction is lousy, the school is lousy. No matter how commercial the trappings of a school are, if the instruction is good, then the school is good.

Look at the cost vs. quality. If the school delivers excellent instruction and you feel that you are getting your money's worth, then is that bad? If your kids are in a McDojo and the instruction is good and all those little programs keep them from quitting when class gets hard, is that bad?

Best thing to do is to evaluate a school based on what it delivers as a whole rather than on the trappings.

Daniel

[Flying Crane]

Apparently they specialized in birthday, holiday and special occasion parties, including sleep-overs. The magician is out of town? Can't book a clown for your kiddie's party? Well, you can hire one of their crack team of blackbelts to fill the occasion!!! And kids think clowns are scary.

Personally, I can't think of a better way to dignify the considerable time many of us have spent developing our skills than to host kiddie parties and entertain a couple of dozen screaming tykes all juiced up on cake and ice cream. Good Lord! Maybe the school didn't go broke. Maybe all the instructors just killed themselves.

Well, this isn't even a matter of how low were they willing to lower their standards. In this case, it sounds like they weren't even teaching martial arts at all. Instead, they had simply become a daycare and entertainment center where the kids dress in funny pijamas with a colored belt holding it together. Arguably, this is a different animal altogether.

I was once offered a position in a school that was much like this, complete with kiddie krotty birthday parties. I didn't accept the position. I most certainly would have killed myself, if I had.

[Em MacIntosh]

A McDojo waters down the standards of proficiency in order to cater to a larger market for the purposes of profit. Not everyone is cut out to be a martial artist. You need to have the willpower to put in the effort, not to mention the time. With 24 hours in a day and maybe 80 years to live you can't do everything so sacrifices have to be made. If you're unwilling or unable to sacrifice what you need to in order to invest adequately in your MA training, you'll probably find your performance unsatisfactory and get discouraged, not a low confidence thing but perhaps a bit of cautious cynicism. This creates a market in which McDojo's depend on the "acceptance-for-the-sake-of-convenience" or naivete of the practitioner. Some who've put the blood sweat and tears into their training might resent those who take karate for 6 months and buy a black belt for $1000. Normally I have no problem with people deluding themselves as it's their prerogative but I find the McDojo's dependancy on naivete to be predatory.

I resent when people call my business a McDojo. I run a respectable two week internet correspondance course that caters to busy lifestyles for people who want a black belt but understandably don't want to put in the effort or don't have the time. The course is $200, plus a $14 testing fee, $40 for the black belt, $25 for the certificate plus shipping and handling. For those who are interested in a more in depth course I offer a 3 month Menkyo Kaiden accellerated course for $2000, $40 for the black belt, $5 per dan ($50), and $50 for the menkyo kaiden certificate (ooooh, lamenated...)

If you're interested I also do IQ testing. It really works. I scored 167 on a test I made myself, and with an IQ like mine you know it's well designed and accurate.

[searcher]

The thing that seperates most schools from the McDojo is the level of skill that the student gains through training at that location.

Our local McDojo has many a student that have some very lofty rank with little to no skill(this is no stretch). I have had some of them come to my school and state they are _____ rank and then when they show their skills they can't even perform a front kick or reverse punch. When questioned about what they learned there, they state that the ranks were about a positive attitude and showing up to class. All I can do is shake my head. Many of them leave when they see they will not get to wear their previous rank and that they have to work hard to gain rank. So sad.

[Twin Fist]

any school that uses hogu......



KIDDING


just kidding Daniel.

got ya

[Xue Sheng]

Also if you see this guy (http://www.geocities.com/pezheaded/MayorMcCheese3.jpg) hanging around...or this guy (http://garotasquedizemni.ig.com.br/archives/grimace.jpg)...it's a McDojos

[searcher]

Also if you see this guy (http://www.geocities.com/pezheaded/MayorMcCheese3.jpg) hanging around...or this guy (http://garotasquedizemni.ig.com.br/archives/grimace.jpg)...it's a McDojos


Those guys scare me to death. They have killed more Americans then any other person in history.

[Guardian]

Excuse me, but the term is inherently negative. Nobody proudly calls their own school a McDojo. Some might argue that a standardised, franchised school can still offer a quality product. They might even admire the McDonald's Corp. business model... but they aren't going to embrace the term Mc Dojo! It implies an over-priced, poor quality, pre-packaged MA "product" watered down for mass consumption by kiddies and undiscriminating adults. And if that's all you can find, well OK. Like you said it's a start. You can survive by eating at McDonald's too. I just wouldn't make it my core diet.

LOL, have it your way Geezer "Inherently it is".

See Bjonson, the list of what a Mcdojo is can be long and every persons view will differ. You'll just have to judge for yourself when it comes right down to it.

[Steve]

Excuse me, but the term is inherently negative. Nobody proudly calls their own school a McDojo. Some might argue that a standardised, franchised school can still offer a quality product. They might even admire the McDonald's Corp. business model... but they aren't going to embrace the term Mc Dojo! It implies an over-priced, poor quality, pre-packaged MA "product" watered down for mass consumption by kiddies and undiscriminating adults. And if that's all you can find, well OK. Like you said it's a start. You can survive by eating at McDonald's too. I just wouldn't make it my core diet.
There are, I'm sure, excellent martial artists who run their business in such a way that it is a McDojo. The term McDojo is intended to be pejorative by the people who use it and often implies that the instructor is unfit or unskilled in addition to being little more than a con artist. It's both a term used to identify certain characteristics in a MA school and at the same time to make a negative judgement. But it's important to remember that the term IS inherently a negative judgement. In other words, it is an opinion of the person using the term. If you asked.

I guess, though, speaking just about the schools, I differentiate between McDojo and Bullshido (as commonly used). The former term focuses more on selling out and cashing in. The latter refers more to the quality of the instruction.

[Bill Mattocks]

Look at it this way.

If you go to a local restaurant, you might get a great meal, and you might not. It might be great while a certain chef works there, and go downhill after he or she leaves. It might have a great reputation that it lives up to, and it might not. It might have many awards and great reviews from food critics, and have declined in the years since then. YOU JUST NEVER KNOW.

If you go to a chain restaurant, like McDonalds, or more upscale, like Olive Garden, you pretty much know what you're going to get. The menu is the same no matter where you are. The prices are similar. The food is pretty good - maybe not world-class, but it tastes good and it is familiar, probably won't make you sick. The chefs or cooks probably are not world-class, but they're probably trained and tested to a minimum standard - they may not be "A" students, but at least they're no lower than "C" students.

Restaurants know - they can be the former or the latter. They can be great and local, or they can be national and average-to-slightly-above-average. Those are pretty much their choices.

A dojo is a business like any other. Certainly many get into it for the love of martial arts, or the love of teaching, etc, etc; but most do it to make money, earn a living, get ahead, run a profitable business. Those who are business people have to decide what kind of dojo they will have. A chain of OK dojos or a single one or maybe two high-end dojo's.

So the way I think of it, a McDojo is not necessarily bad. It's not going to be great, most likely, but it should at least conform to a minimum standard.

[Touch Of Death]

The term McDojo refers to a business model that is similar to that of McDonalds.

The business model is used by a lot of schools and is fairly formulaic, which is its main resemblence to McDonalds.

A McDojo business model is good for three things: turning profits, bringing in young students, and standardizing curriculum.

None of those things are, in and of themselves bad, though it does represent a level of commercialism. Often, the training of the students is secondary to profitability, thus the training is often likened to McDonalds' foot; looks good and tastey, but of little nutritional value. Note that I say often, not always.

Typical McDojo features are:

*Monthly dues in excess of a hundred dollars
*Lengthy (a year or more) binding contracts
*Direct debit of monthly fees
*Requirements to purchase all gear from the school
*Various clubs and programs that cost extra
*Ascending fees for promotions and a lot of belts.
*Automatic promotion up to and including black belt, regardless of skill
*Rapid ascent to blackbelt
*Seminars, either required or strongly suggested

None of these things by itself makes a school a McDojo. If a school is a McDojo, please keep in mind what I said earlier: McDojo is a business model and reflects a level of commercialism, not quality or lack of quality in training. Some McDojo schools have very good instruction.

Of course, some have lousy instruction, but so too do some "traditional" schools. Lousy schools have existed long before the McDojo model existed. No matter how traditional the trappings of a school are, if the instruction is lousy, the school is lousy. No matter how commercial the trappings of a school are, if the instruction is good, then the school is good.

Look at the cost vs. quality. If the school delivers excellent instruction and you feel that you are getting your money's worth, then is that bad? If your kids are in a McDojo and the instruction is good and all those little programs keep them from quitting when class gets hard, is that bad?

Best thing to do is to evaluate a school based on what it delivers as a whole rather than on the trappings.

DanielYou just described all the martial arts schools that are open. The non comercial ones based purly on principle are closed.
Sean

[Bill Mattocks]

You just described all the martial arts schools that are open. The non comercial ones based purly on principle are closed.
Sean

Not mine.

[Daniel Sullivan]

You just described all the martial arts schools that are open.
Unless you're speaking in hyperbole, you would have a very hard time supporting this statement.


The non comercial ones based purly on principle are closed.
Sean
And just what principle are these ideal schools based purely upon?

Why does noncommercial automatically mean "based purely on principle?" I find that noncommercial is often elevated in ways that it should not be.

A non-commercial can be just as lousy as a commercial school.

Yes, it could be wonderful and offer superior instruction, but it could also be staffed by unqualified instructors and run by an egomaniac who has enough money that he can afford to run a dojo at a loss.

Not trying to nitpick you, Sean, but not even all of the commercial schools adhere to the description of a McDojo that I furnished. Some adhere to all of them and do things that I missed in my description (the aforementioned birthday parties), but some adhere to very little of what I described.

Let me ask you this: do you feel that any commericial studio is automatically inferior to any non-commercial entity?

Are there not things about a commercial school that are of benefit to the students that a non commercial entity may not be able to offer?

Lastly, does commercial automatically mean McDojo?

Daniel

[MilkManX]

Commercial does not equal McDojo.

Bad instruction,no care for students techniques,high fees,auto debit,year contracts,quick promotions,no live sparring at all...those are what I think of when I think McDojo.

[Touch Of Death]

Unless you're speaking in hyperbole, you would have a very hard time supporting this statement.


And just what principle are these ideal schools based purely upon?

Why does noncommercial automatically mean "based purely on principle?" I find that noncommercial is often elevated in ways that it should not be.

A non-commercial can be just as lousy as a commercial school.

Yes, it could be wonderful and offer superior instruction, but it could also be staffed by unqualified instructors and run by an egomaniac who has enough money that he can afford to run a dojo at a loss.

Not trying to nitpick you, Sean, but not even all of the commercial schools adhere to the description of a McDojo that I furnished. Some adhere to all of them and do things that I missed in my description (the aforementioned birthday parties), but some adhere to very little of what I described.

Let me ask you this: do you feel that any commericial studio is automatically inferior to any non-commercial entity?

Are there not things about a commercial school that are of benefit to the students that a non commercial entity may not be able to offer?

Lastly, does commercial automatically mean McDojo?

DanielIn some ways the money apsect directly effects the way students are taught. You want to keep as many students as you can for as long as you can while constantly bringing in new students to not only replace the ones that leave but allow your school to grow. If money were not an issue and the students weren't allowed to quit, then things would be a lot different.
Sean

[searcher]

Look at it in terms of McDonalds. They are schools with a "value menu." They will give you anything you want and it seems that you are getting a deal until they add "fries," a "drink," and an "apple pie." Next thing you know, you are fat and you are still not satisfied with what you have consumed.

It has to do more with the level of instruction and wat they are producing. If you walk in and the instructor is wearing a +4th Dan rank and is 19YO, it is a McDojo. Look at the students and how they perform in comparison to the rank they hold. Is it to the standard one would/should expect?

JMHO.

[fangjian]

A McDojo is a school where the instruction is fraudulent, either purposely(the teacher is knowingly lying to their students about whatever;techniques, lineage etc.) or by accident(the teacher himself was lied to about that stuff and is now continuing the vicious cycle of sucking).

Live sparring, forms, weapons, ........

None of these things are absolutely necessary to be a martial art. Live sparring, form,.....could mean many things to different people.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Look at it in terms of McDonalds. They are schools with a "value menu." They will give you anything you want and it seems that you are getting a deal until they add "fries," a "drink," and an "apple pie." Next thing you know, you are fat and you are still not satisfied with what you have consumed.

It has to do more with the level of instruction and wat they are producing. If you walk in and the instructor is wearing a +4th Dan rank and is 19YO, it is a McDojo. Look at the students and how they perform in comparison to the rank they hold. Is it to the standard one would/should expect?

JMHO.
This is the inherent weakness of the McDojo. Because it is a business model that is focused on collecting a myriad of fees, each item that has a fee associated with it is seen in terms of capturing sales dolars. Thus a two year student is now "ready" to test for his black belt.

Statisitcally, after about two years, most students will drop off if they have not received the coveted belt, and most who stay after receiving it drop off shortly afterward.

Thus to insure capture of the customer's dollars, he, she, or their child is promoted to blackbelt with everyone else. Now the lure is the second dan. Remember, there are no colored belt testings anymore, so it is usually at this point that weapon forms are introduced, with their own accompanying certifications. Then second dan.

If the school can keep a kid around long enough, they will wind up fifth dan before their twentieth birthday. From a financial standpoint, it is a good model. It makes money and keeps the school in business. Unfortunately, the art suffers.

Much in the same way that corporate involvement in music produces a lot of revenue but very little in the way of quality musicians.

Daniel

[Touch Of Death]

A McDojo is a school where the instruction is fraudulent, either purposely(the teacher is knowingly lying to their students about whatever;techniques, lineage etc.) or by accident(the teacher himself was lied to about that stuff and is now continuing the vicious cycle of sucking).

Live sparring, forms, weapons, ........

None of these things are absolutely necessary to be a martial art. Live sparring, form,.....could mean many things to different people.The truth is closer to the instructors not having a full understanding of the material. Its not like theres a group of instructors that are just like the villian in Karate Kid ll.
Sean

[Balrog]

Contracts and debits are not signs of being a McDojo, they are simply good business practice. And make no bones about it - the vast majority of schools are a business. They have to make money to pay the rent and utilities and salaries.

Now I firmly abhor the MASS business model. It's used-car salesmanship and I'm sorrier than hell that I ever attended the seminar. It really is about gouging every cent you can out of your customer and I think it's unethical. But that's just me.

[Dave Leverich]

Commercial does not equal McDojo.

Bad instruction,no care for students techniques,high fees,auto debit,year contracts,quick promotions,no live sparring at all...those are what I think of when I think McDojo.

Actually no, commercial IS McDojo, but do NOT think that McDojo means that the students aren't learning real martial arts and can kick someones skull in... BS and McDojo aren't mutually exclusive.

Commercial schools that expect to survive, will have some kind of billing service, different programs, proshop etc etc.

[Dave Leverich]

A McDojo is a school where the instruction is fraudulent, either purposely(the teacher is knowingly lying to their students about whatever;techniques, lineage etc.) or by accident(the teacher himself was lied to about that stuff and is now continuing the vicious cycle of sucking).

Live sparring, forms, weapons, ........

None of these things are absolutely necessary to be a martial art. Live sparring, form,.....could mean many things to different people.
You're mistaking McDojo for Bullshido (see also the site with the .net at the end of it for more info on those) schools.

Google it, there's a difference. Not all McDojo's are Bullshido. By most people's definition of McDojo, a certain BJJ line classifies, but I can guarantee they're teaching real martial arts. They simply charge a premium price for said instruction.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well said, Dave. McDojo is a business model. Nothing more and nothing less.

Daniel