Krabi Krabong USA

[BigWilliam]

Hi folks, new to the forum and thought I might start here for my first official post. I'm not finding a lot of information here about Krabi Krabong (not surprising due to it's limited availability) and thought I might start with listing some of the known instructors here in the states.

From the information that I have:

Arjarn Steve Wilson (in Wash/Oregon)
Arjarn Michael DeLio
Arjarn Vincent Giordarno (NYC)
Arjarn Jason Webster (TX)
Arjarn Arlan Sanford (New Mexico?)
Arjarn Pedro Villalobos (I believe currently in Thailand)

Please ad to the list if I'm missing anyone.


Thanks,
William

[blackdiamondcobra]

There are more than that I believe such as alfonso tamez, anthony james, rabinowitz, allessandri off the top of my head. Many unknown of which I have a list but not with me as I am traveling

Also that is one line only of krabi krabong, the buddhai sawan line you are representing with that list, there are alot other systems that have instructors as well here in the US. The late headmaster Thonglor of the sitarait school's son lives in the US as well, so I assume for his age, he would clearly be one of the highest graded traditional thai masters if not highest in the US simply by virtue of age, succession, pure knowledge and years of training in that system. Many dont want to teach openly or commercially, so they are not on any lists nor want to be. Some are part of multiple lines or schools of kk.

Other systems maintain traditional school grading after years of training and not by the same sash, color ranking as the buddhai sawan. also what form of kk, physical education, combative, etc.

So this list is only one side as is any list i saw compiled in the US and doesnt represent the total picture or really highest ranks in terms of school or schools, continuous years of training, ranking etc and all that needs to be taken into account for an accurate picture.

Vincent

[BigWilliam]

Hi Vincent, thanks for responding.
You know, I was just thinking the other day that it’s about time for me to send you my annual e-mail to check in and see how you’re doing on your projects and travels.

As far as the beginnings of my list, yes, it naturally represents/starts with the Buddhai Sawan line since that is where my exposure and training in KK comes from. My point in starting the thread was an effort to elicit responses pointing to other sources as well within the United States. I haven’t seen a listing anywhere that lists all sources and their geographic locations which would be beneficial in getting the systems and instructors a bit more exposure to a wider audience. I have no interest in starting a political debate (and I’m not saying you are) as to which lineage is more skilled, higher ranked, closer to the original source, etc… I try to steer clear of politics and focus on realistic training.


Best regards,
William

[blackdiamondcobra]

Hi william,

As you know I am free and clear of all politics and political agendas but unfortunately that is what is what has bogged down the flow of correct or vital information because people want certain control and that has hindered kk for some time whether we like to admit that or not.

I am also in the non commercial sector and have been my entire martial arts career and my specific agenda and training personally is combatics and realism and most of my work was with the military in thailand and throughout se asia as you well know and my research and findings focus on the same pragmatic doctrine which most people shy away from and refuse to accept. I continue to train in se asia year after year to further my training and refine my research.

My point is kk was alway bogged down by agendas even in thailand where incorrect information stopped the flow of essential information because it was believed to be the end point of it. That is slowly changing.

There are different eras even in the buddhai sawan school, where early people like allessandri, tamez, james, webster contributed a lot to its early growth and now might be forgotten. Buddhai sawan method changed over time so their link to the early training is important to understanding the flow and subtle changes of that system as well as ranking structure. Some like rabinowitz despite his high rank now are totally missed.

Its important to acknowledge the different schools and different ways of training so people can get a taste finally of what the system is in all its colors if the system is to grow since it has been generally stagnant and sort of one dimensional up to this point. I think the lists that exclude many others also closes a lot of doors and is viewed very negatively in thailand and with many others so i think if we have a chance to extend that and re open doors and show a willingness to construct open resources will lift the situation out of the quagmire it is in. Sorry to say but compiling lists is often viewed as political and with agenda unless they are open and full resources. That is only my personal point of view on it.

My point was also if lists where to be made then it would also be very beneficial at this point for them to constructively be very focused as to what school and what specifically is taught by each individual. I think this would be an important contribution to a resource to just open up the avenue not to get into this is better than that or who is higher ranked but simply here are other ways to do it and where you can train it. I used as illustration that a very highly ranked kk master lives in the US and in the future might be a resource if he feels he wants to come out and teach and in a compilation of instructors or headmasters he would certainly have to be acknowledged whether he wants to be listed as not teaching or whatever. This will help alot.

You can email me when I get home to add to your list also I would guess to see who is active vs inactive some like myself dont teach openly at all and contact info for all those want to teach or who accept students. I know jason webster is teaching again and arlan had a small backyard class. I know also there are students at this point of some of the instructors who are quite capable of teaching as well who should be added. Many who also come in from thailand especially military contact me and sometimes they are here and can teach people, so updates like that can be added as well to the resource.

I feel your posting is a constructive one and I will contribute to it when I can. I just wanted to air certain grievances I had about past attempts at lists which fell very short of being an open resource. I certainly feel complimented that my name is always acknowledged although personally rank means very little to me but I feel many others are more than worthy as well despite their affilitation to other schools or teachers which in the end is just Krabi Krabong to me in all its flavors. Hopefully others will contribute as well. I will try and email others to get info in when I have time.

Lets keep this thread up and active.

Be well
Vincent

[BigWilliam]

Hi Vincent,

I appreciate your willingness to consider the thought of starting a KK resource. I would agree that any such source should be all inclusive and free from political agendas. I personally would love to see Krabi Krabong become more prominent here in the States and that will need to start with openness to all lineages that are represented. I agree with you in that it should include recognition of those who do not teach publicly as well. At least in this way anyone interested in learning KK could see an unbiased listing and find the closest active instructor, and/or give them choices if they happen to be in an area that may have more than one.

Up to this point, over the years I’ve come across a number of people (mostly on-line) who expressed interest in KK but had no clue as to where an instructor could be found. I would point them in the direction of the sources I was aware of but I always figured there had to be more out there. At least in this way, we give recognition to those who have put in the blood, sweat, and years, and make available sources for those who express interest and will eventually help KK grow and carry on.

I’m reminded of the Aesop/Patrick Henry quote here: “United we stand, divided we fall”. In the event we can’t all come together, at least we can strive to have KK flourish (as you stated) in all its flavors.



Best regards,
William

[blackdiamondcobra]

Thanks for your insights, William.

Understand KK fell in the America because of political agenda in my view having tracked it since the early days. Its unfortunate and all in the past so its water under the bridge. But what can we learn from that so its not repeated? I myself extracted myself from it and simply devoted myself to training and researching year after year so I am literally speaking as a person on the inside though watching very clearly on the outside.

My own teaching and training is modern but I felt late in the my martial arts career that a careful step back in time to clearly explore the se asian arts was in order and I devoted myself to that as my own personal project and continue to do so. It was startling to say the least what I uncovered and the labyrinth is still spiralling in front of me.

If people want in depth information then opening the well so to speak and accepting others will provide that not only a reservoir of information but an amount that will exceed any expectation. There will be more instructors, more schools and with that of course, I am this or I am better, but it goes with the terrain and any expansion.

Most importantly like kali, arnis and escrima, there are many different ways, regional styles, formats kk falls into. Just because someone writes on the internet or youtube that they took twenty trips to thailand or whatever and didnt find anything doesnt mean it doesnt exist. It means their skills of investigation are sorely lacking.

KK fell into the grip of the ministry of education, and the physical education department which was a way of domination and control in thailand as well as frankly financial exploitation. If you want a clear example of this, look at what they are doing with "muay boran", its simply a grade school adapted program for cultural preservation for school children, a safe format for purposes of history and physical education preservation--not a method of fighting or an active method of learning fighting or competing--thus the system minus teeth and soul. It is not the authentic systems such as muay chaiya, muay korat, muay lanna, etc so in time the ministry of education wants to dominate and control and spread their doctrine at the expense of the actual systems, lineage, removing fighting and actual battle techniques, thus rewriting it to the point that all else might vanish as their work overwrites everything and becomes truth. What is more popular at this stage a few years into this charade: muay boran or any authentic system? If you look at the numbers of practitioners, instructors and schools--its muay boran right now. So in the future who will be imprinting this as the final truth--authentic knowledge or a fabrication and reinvention of the past? This process has already taken hold with kk. And there is not one american or foreigner or anyone who understands this or accepts this or at least no one i ever read or spoke to but its what has happened and what is happening. I know my views have never been accepted by anyone in america or europe for that matter based on the daily negative nonsense I get but let one of them take even a second to do some scholarly research, put their own body in the line of fire, translate hundreds of pages of ancient texts, walk every inch north, east, south and west, train with the last survivors of these systems and they would change their views in a second and go screaming the other way like they "discovered" something.

By example, you look at kk, which has undergone that transformation already and you can only imagine what is lost and misinterpreted. Physical education kk for grade school and college is not the same as combative kk. So if people want the fighting: live sharpened steel work, footwork patterns, mental preparation, fighting on different terrain, multiple opponents-- for that then they need the schools or teachers who propagate that and those schools and teachers are slowly vanishing because either neglect or a run to create systems that the ministry of education/physical education will accept and help them financially survive. If they want a cross section or a phys ed format which has dominated the teaching then they can learn that easily. The needs and systems are there for those who want them. Physical education at the college level, had contact kk fights throughout the early period in college then they went to padding, but they complained people were getting hurt and they took it out, so even then at the phys ed level it was rough. So then it was cut down another level again, taking away the heart and teeth or what was left of it which wasnt much to begin with. I personally dont want to be a phys ed teacher, i want the actual ancient combative system of knowledge known as krabi krabong, that is the thrust of my training and knowledge. Others might pursue the kk phys ed modality and the thing is its there for those who want it and fits their particular needs. But understand both exist and live and are defined by different doctrine and training and end purpose.

So first we need to accept that, put that into perspective and allow that to sink in, understand the truth here has no agenda, it simply is what has happened to martial arts in thailand and how do we navigate those waters successfully and gain a full understanding against cultural bridges. We need to understand culturally why this happened so we just dont explode and burn it down since it is now an integral and effective way for them to teach it and they feel a great way to teach the youth about the thai past while using a popular thai martial art as a base for its physical root. But also how do we survive and extend that the way the phillipine martial arts survived and extended themselves for example? There is still growth to be had.

My own research and training is always combative and functional. Also because it would be considered the old way vs the new way(phys ed, new systems of kk). In combat,we deal with death, blood, multiple opponents and a variety of weapons. Also it means sharp steel and how to train to use it realistically or for the battlefield in this case. It is also hardwoven into a buddhist methodology often dispensed by monks and top fighters and generals of the period. So it is an interesting matrix highly woven over time. It survives only in pockets. In burma, it is slowly being lost as the burmese government uses the methodology of the chinese in control and domination by overwriting a generic wu shu type of methodolgy to it--they dont want you training with old masters or the useless past as one general put it to me bluntly. Cambodia survives the best for the time being but the current bokator phenomena(read muay boran from thailand to understand this) starts to send people away from actual masters living in the countryside some in their eighties who dont have tv or radio or much contact surviving very ancient systems intact and as the sands of the hourglass push through we see it being lost because people are led astray to something they believe is true.

People might say this really has nothing to do with creating a simple list of instructors but it does. It is the vital history and an indepth look at what I see as an inherent problem that has been overlooked for some time. But it in the end it affects and bleeds heavily into ranking structure and instructor understanding of what is taught and how. How does that ranking work and why and where does it come from.

I am sure others can add to this. But this is the very beginning hopefully of a base understanding if these concepts cant be accepted then forward movement will always jerk back to the beginning, just like someone without good basics will always falter back to the beginning and redo things that should have be solid in the first place.

Vincent

[Fede]

Hello Vincent,

that's a lot to think of actually but that's because a lot of lies and nonsense have been spread for a long time. So I understand why it could be difficult to go back and start again for some.
As far as KK is concerned I didn't know where to go when I started since there is a lot of (mis)information I am lucky I ended with a good teacher who isn't making any claims and politics at all while most of his Thai and non-Thai 'colleagues' seem to be concerned with that in the first place.
As an Italian I cannot help thinking about the Sritrairat KK school situation.
I am happy Ajarn John will take care of the Sritrairat school in the US because in Italy things have been distorted by the wrong people, another proof that public claims of this and that are to be taken lightly.
It was like if that school and that teacher were the only real depositaries
of real KK and Thai bareknuckle-and that went on for years.
My teacher in Thailand doesn't give ranks and such, he is a traditional teacher and he hasn't received ranks either. His teachers knew when he was ready and that was it, that was enough. So I will continue being a student until he says I am able to teach, and then keep evolving on my own because this is what you do in the end. Ranking makes little sense to me, I think that knowing what a student has done under this or that teacher and is authorized to teach are enough. That's how it works really, my knife teacher learned in the streets of Naples when younger, he has no belts or ranks but I will never question his skills or his words. His actions speak so who needs belts and ranks.

It is true that the Chinese government has turned Chinese MA into exhibition and athletics, I am waiting for the day when Wu Shu will be included in the Olympics. I am not sure but I think old teachers had to flee to Taiwan and to the US in order to escape that nonsense and do their job. And they have been replaced by others who teach Wu Shu and so on-when I look at Wu Shu, the art of war, I canot picture it being used in ancient battlefields, it just a little common sense. Muay Boran and "mainstream" KK are the same unfortunately.
There are already too many who are the first to do this and that and to be this and that it makes no sense in itself. On the other hand you have those who teach their circle of students, people know who they are and that is enough. So it is very good that there are people searching deeper and bringing the real material out, or it would be slowly erased and forgotten.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Fede:
Yes, the problem doesnt just exist as I stated in american alone but even in thailand so it permeates everything and Italy has been a battleground for some time. But if one truly looks beneath the surface its just a battle of ego and supremacy over skill and understanding in Italy. For people of such high "reputed" skill you would imagine the volume of concise information, tactics and translation would be staggering but its not. Its just bashing and me oriented slander.

The sitarait situation is a sad one since the late grandmaster thonglor was one of the last of the great masters and there are only a few left now. He was a true buddhist and as close to an ego less man that i ever met, he never charged a penny for his instruction his entire life. But again in time, the truth will win out despite the endless propaganda campaigns and it will show everything in a correct light because it is staggering and clearly documented. In this specific situation, it already has happily begun.

The fact that very little information is out in the open causes this actually but in time like I said within the next two years will be a lot of very well researched, trained and documented information that will come to light and it should be taken positively and openly since it will expose a wide body of knowledge for those who seek it.

These are not easy systems of knowledge to truly embody, a lot of research and translation is needed to fully complement the techniques and progressions so it springs alive in three dimensions not only for the students but the teachers.

Also as i alluded to previously the structure of the system one is taught is equally important since some were created for specific purposes like phys ed, others for a combination, some of cultural preservation through performance or theatrics, some of fighting or combatics, some are direct lineage systems to the past warriors like phra pichai, king naresuan, etc. Each is defined by the modality they were created for and propagated as its important for any instructor especially a foreign instructor to make sure you understand that part of history and development of their chosen system so he doesn't do any further distortion but contributes positively to its growth without having to back step into having to clarify mistakes or misinterpertations.

I was always very specific in what i was looking for in terms of kk as one should be in any endeavor to train in a given system and most teachers would be honest and say no its not what i teach and i think this is more important for kk or I do it because of this or that reason and they would elaborate very kindly as what they taught and why they taught it. One teacher a master of staggering ability said right out I crafted this system from my own training from my father and from those threads I went back and traced all the ancient texts and teachers to further build on the system so his honesty was a bit startling since one would ever question his ability with weapon. Only a few carried on endless subterfuge but in the light of looking back on it there was certainly reasons for them to carry on as such.

Many teachers in thailand as you said are simple in their instruction and progression towards building instructors and most are very humble and honest. The simple term kru means a lot to them and they pass their knowledge along as it was passed to them if one is humble enough to accept that. If you are lucky to find that stick with it for the long term.

Ranking along with the why and how it permeated thailand and certain teachers is another long topic for another time and something too large to tackle right now. But important all the same.

[destructautomaton]

man,nothing excited me more than kabi krabong when i was young. i ran out this afternoon and pulled out all my old magazine articles onit. i actually have the tamez issues of old inside kung fu and inside karate, re reading them it sounds exactly like the same situation we are reading about now.he talks about how people are resistant to what he wants to show and talk about. it seems there was always a revolving door of people claiming to be the head one after another but nothingmuch in terms of explaining the art or really showing it more than what was already there. i recently bought the book by pedro but it was pretty generic and not much in detail or explanation. hopefully things will turn around for this amazing art. i would love to know about the other teachers and ssytems so anything like thst would be great.

[Fede]

Vincent it's very true, I couldn't see what was what in KK at the beginning I was only interested in the techniques but as time went by I simply had to know the other aspects as well - philosophical/spiritual and historical because it's all closely related and one naturally leads to the other. Yet another reason for me now to learn the true system and keep learning.
I also think that if a teacher is bad or egotist he will influence his students who will just copy that behaviour if they aren't mentally strong, and so it spreads. I had that attitude and firmly believed that a Chinese system was the best simply because I was told so and I didn't even question it or search for info from outside.

destructautomaton I saw that Ajarn Alphonso Tamez is the oldest foreign student in the Buddhai Sawan US, I remember that I was looking for info and he was said to be teaching in the early 80's if I remember well. It's nice you kept the old issues of those magazines. Too bad history repeats itself, man never learns from that.

[tellner]

Greg Nelson in St. Paul, Minnesota really deserves to be mentioned. He was one of the first. When he had health problems some years back Steve Wilson did a benefit seminar for him.

[BigWilliam]

Vincent,

Unfortunately it’s not surprising, I think you can find a lot of this going on to varying degrees in many different martial arts systems. The human ego is something that everyone has to varying degrees, it’s just that there are some out there who can’t control it, or are so insecure that they have to put down other people and other systems to prop themselves up. The other side is the fact that the system is so hard to come by, and so little information is available that there are people who will make stuff up and/or make all kinds of claims that the average person will have a hard time verifying…and as Fede mentioned, some students take what their instructor tells them as gospel and will spread it with fervor. I can admit that I was guilty of that early in my combative arts training.

As others have mentioned, I personally find ranks meaningless and have never really cared much about them. My personal mantra, and one that I try to impart to my students is exploring and testing the combative elements. Making sure that after we drill certain principles and mechanics that we test them in as realistic manner that is possible (realizing we have to find that balance between real as possible and still safe). Can we make it work in real time with an opponent trying to take our head off? Discover which tools you can work, and which ones you can’t…or have difficulty pulling off. I think it goes a long way in removing presumptions of how things “should work” and gets closer to how things “actually” work. I personally find the spiritual and historical aspects a little harder, especially since I moved a continent away from my instructor. That is something I’ll work through and is also part of the reason I thought it was time to try and start trying to pull things together. Again, I’ll be honest and say the other reason is my children. A while back I started teaching them the aspects of KK that I had learned and they really love it. It has really rekindled that fire for the system in me. Also, when I first moved out here I kept the KK to myself and concentrated on teaching Muay Thai and Filipino systems. Once the fire was burning again I started working with a core group of my guys and they are really digging it as well. Looking back in, there isn’t much out there readily available and I think it’s time to start really trying to pull things together and shine a light on a system that we all know deep down is great.

As far as the actual mechanics of a KK resource, I’m open to suggestions. I think it’s great that Vincent feels it’s a worthy idea and has outlined pointers and possible pitfalls in doing something like this. As far as a listing goes (just to throw something out there) maybe a start could be…

Geographic Location - Name - System/Lineage - Teacher - Active (Y/N) - Public/Private - Contact Information


Again, just a start but let’s keep this going.

Best regards,
William

[BigWilliam]

Greg Nelson in St. Paul, Minnesota really deserves to be mentioned. He was one of the first. When he had health problems some years back Steve Wilson did a benefit seminar for him.


Thanks Todd. Will do.

Long time no converse. I hope you are doing well.





William

[blackdiamondcobra]

I think this thread has a lot of great input and ideas. Full expression for all is the most important in any growth process and everyone should rightly contribute both pro and con.

Greg Nelson should definitely be in there, didnt Mike walrath also go with them on the first trip? I think it was mike, greg and steven. Glenn boodry as well. Steve would have further input probably on all that.

William:

I think what combatic/realistic training taught me was the mind set to cut through through the clutter and I was able to arrive at some sort of conclusion that rapidly brought out certain truths. For me and my journey, it was always a matter of finding the teachers and systems that were developed as a functional system with a primary focus on combatic techniques rather than athletic and aesthetic approaches which I developed primarily in my youth. Function begins to have common lines across cultural barriers and the lines on the horizon suddenly become clear. The rigorous testing is also something we do in research.

In that light I explored all the realms of each system, I did take time in se asia to go to any class or visit any teacher and I took endless phys ed classes from grade school to college as well as any other method or approach to see how and why they were constructed and their structure and progression were always well thought out with a solid theory behind them. I left no stone unturned. It was not for me as I dont want to be a phys ed teacher but there was a lot to be learned about well thought structure and other applications for a system. But for children it is a wonderful format that can be expanded up into combatics. The phys ed systems of kk were specifically aimed at children giving them the full disciplined approach spiritual, ceremonial and phys ed aspects minus the violent, killing, ending material and mindset. KK has a very deep philosophy to it as does all of the se asian systems. There are some great architects of the phys ed systems of thailand who definitely deserve enormous credit and respect for their lifelong dedication to doing what they felt was important in preserving the old arts in a new format.

In the true essence of training, ego is slowly reduced and self esteem is brought up and fortified. That was something important in the doctrine especially with the younger children.

The confusion that has clouded krabi krabong for some time needs to be cleared up and not in a negative way but in a progressive way so it can extend and open up. As you can see, there are alot of avenues and paths within it. One can teach it in a myriad of ways, for the most part in the US, we have only one pathway that has been incorrectly identified and has led to enormous confusion both here and in thailand. Once the clarity takes shape people will respond to it. In the end, the survival of the older systems of knowledge are in severe jeopardy of dying out in their native land, so interest aboard usually brings interest from within.

Ranking structure in thailand is another story and I will go into that another time, but also if you look and see, kru is the old term and the highest expression of respect for a teacher.

But your ideas about the listing are quite good and your honest approach very admirable.

I just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge that literally everyone from the beginning has and continues to be an enormous benefit and support to my training and research from, alphonso, jason, tony moore, anthony, steven, arlan and the countless teachers, professors and students in thailand that continue to help me out. It would have been virtually impossible for me to come as far I have without them all. I am the sum product of their help, training and generosity.

V

[Fede]

I agree with you William you tend to believe your first instructors without questioning them as they are the figures you look up to and you haven't reached a proficiency level so you don't feel you can even question them. But if an instructor is all about ego and does not truly know what he teaches, it will slowly come out and affect him and some people will start to leave. It's not the style that makes the difference it's the same pattern everywhere. So yes the "Geographic Location - Name - System/Lineage - Teacher - Active (Y/N) - Public/Private - Contact Information" does make sense because as you said it can take a long time to find the true teachers and you do get lost with all the falsity and people there are in the martial world, there are so many !
I remember when I first started I didn't have a clue about styles/sifus/ajarns/guros and so on....at all, an easy prey for almost everyone and I did lose lots of time and money with people who said they were what they were not.
With KK it's difficult since as Vincent said there are problems and confusion both in Thailand and abroad, there isn't much clarity hence the utility of the last post and of the whole thread.

As Vincent said muay is muay or chuan is chuan, and muay is chuan and chuan is muay when you have to go at it. there are of course some differences but that's the bottom line. It's difficult to grasp (I still haven't grasped that) but it slowly becomes more and more apparent with time if one just pays attention and isn't biased by styles and teachers. Quoting Bruce Lee now would be an obvious thing to do so I don't even need to do that.

[destructautomaton]

look forward to the new instructors lists when they become available. Thanks to william and to vincent for answering my emails. i finally read through a good deal of vincents vanishingflame reports and i really look forward to the great info coming up on krabi krabong and the thai martial arts. its something i was looking forward to for a long time. i am hoping to get some training in and i am working on that now. thanks to all.

[BigWilliam]

I'm happy to be a part of this. I'm working on getting the structure set down, then it's a matter of gathering information. I'm hoping to eventually have an instructor listing, articles submitted by practitioners and instructors, as well as a gallery section. But, baby steps to begin with.


Best regards,
William

[BigWilliam]

Vincent,

Would you mind e-mailing me? We switched over to a new computer about a month ago and the transfer of information didn't go as well as it was supposed to. I don't have your contact info anymore.

Thank you!
William

william at mongrelcombativearts dot com

[destructautomaton]

Had long kabikrabong weekend. watched krabikrabong:thebuddhaisawanpath dvds and reread everything i had and just got, definitely alot of info and alot to ponder and think about. had so many questions and got alot of answers from vincent and others just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to answer me. i really enjoyed this thread alot.

[BigWilliam]

Just an FYI, I have a URL reserved and I am working on it as I can. If anyone would like to submit contact information for themselves, their instructors, or anyone around the globe teaching Krabi Krabong please PM or e-mail me.

The goal of this site is to remain neutral and present all facets of KK.

For the instructor/school listing, please submit the information in the following format:

Geographic Location - Name - System/Lineage - Teacher - Active (Y/N) - Public/Private - Contact Information



Best regards,
William

[destructautomaton]

i bought a perfect copy of the old black belt with hardy stockmans kabikabong article in it and on the cover probably the earliest intro to the art Got it on ebayif anyone is interested also i think black belt has an digital archive available of back issues.

[destructautomaton]

William,any updates on the site or any developments? I am interested in keeping up with this.

[destructautomaton]

vincent:
i just watched again the krabikrabong dvd. Will there be second volume or further looks at the system or systems? I am interested in finding out some more on the different outlooks.....How long did it take to film the dvd, it seems like there was alotof footage.

[blackdiamondcobra]

DA:
There was originally going to be two - two volume sets on krabi krabong focusing on the buddhai sawan method(which was the more popular method in the west and thus a decent starting point). The first dvd set was what I call "laying the base" providing an overview, in this case, directly from the late ajarn samai and not putting myself in it or trying to toy with the footage too much or add too much. The second two were to be on the double swords in complete spectrum with me and jason going through it all. To show how I trained it and how I express it especially in the full contact realm which we have been doing and recording since 1991 and how jason truly embodies it. Our original plan would have been to use the additional footage, explainations and footage of ajarn samai to round it out which was not included in the earlier dvds as well as further archived footage from jason and our full contact footage. There is still alot of footage there but some of it is only for my direct students and people in the legacy and will never see the light of day beyond that and the other half can be used at various points to highlight the writing and further investigations in the future. I doubt at this point the second volume will be made. I would rather move on to the other systems in krabi krabong and begin presenting them and opening up that vista. But we'll see. Alot of footage for the other dvds are shot and ready to go. But I am tentative at this point about any further dvds really.

The original footage was shot over a long period of time and the original 20-30 hours of raw footage was shot analog and needed to be completely transferred to digital for archive and editing. I hadnt used or viewed the original footage since it was shot and it was deteriorating, so it was weeks of careful transfer to try to survive it all and we did lose some footage here and there. The second half of the footage another 10 hours or so was on digital and already archived and saved. Luckily, I completely kept a training log notebook while i was training and shooting when I returned home I relogged the footage, so I have every explanation and date and why we recorded in written detail to go back to which helped enormously get through the footage and create the final version.

All my projects take time because its like peeling an onion, you have to get through the layers to arrive at the core. It also involves alot of translations and interviews to get a bit closer to the teacher and their methods. Its hard and its time consuming. But mostly its all about the training, I dont write about or do anything I dont train. In essence I try to work from the inside out and training is the key, getting to a level of understanding through the training where the questions start to answer themselves and everything becomes clear.

I collected also alot of comments and reviews from many people since the dvds release from practitioners, instructors and people well versed in the systems, so I feel i gained alot in terms of what i could have done better and been clearer on. And thats another part of the growth cycle for me, working with others and expanding my own knowledge and depth.

Some people of course abused certain parts like the italians because i said ajarn thonglor, ajarn samais comtemporary, had one of the best "physical education" systems which was a true statement, since his system continued to grow and expand at once through the military and through the school system, becoming as popular in thailand as any method. It wasnt meant any personal endorsement but a simple fact on how the landscape changed and evolved.

Some people tried to validate their own training time and views but one needs to understand, a training method undergoes changes over time, the earlier students to the later might have seen things change, but the overriding philosophy, structure and methodology usually comes through the core of what each one of them learned. Understanding what the teacher in this case ajarn samai along with ajarn arimetta and others sought to originally create and how ajarn samai carried on and further developed it is important as anything. I felt i was true to his own words and I let him express it as he saw fit regardless if it was not as polished or pristine as one would like(and many complained about). I translated many interviews from as early as the 60s down to his final months since I did the last interview and training literally a few months before his death. I also interviewed many of the old to new students to round it out. I felt alot of accurate information especially about who trained ajarn samai, who developed it and what it was, was of paramount importance to the dvd since most of it was very shady and incorrect, because it allows us to understand it accurately as he saw it and expressed it.

There is alot more i want to express at some point probably in print in the books I will go into more detail.

The most important thing is to understand that there are many viable krabi krabong systems and teachers, not just one method or just one road, regardless of what has been told, written about or preached. Its my hope that that not only will the other sides especially the military/combative(especially in light of people using that krabi krabong is the father of muay thai or the military forerunner to muay thai, which right now doesnt correlate well to what is out there and expressed and left alot of people scratching their heads to the linkage) but the ancient texts as the pichai songkram and the great theories of the system will shed light on a deeply diverse system that engulfs a great deal of knowledge and skill.

[destructautomaton]

Thanks for your reply. I am picking up some of the other dvds so i might have some further questions if you dont mind. iam enjoying this alot.

[doc D]

Great Thread! I trained a bit with Jason Webster in Muay Thai back in early 90's and studied a small ( very small) smattering of Krabi Krabong from him. He eventually moved off to bigger and better things and I focused on my Pencak Silat training. Anyone know if he is still teaching Krabi Krabong and where ? Is he still in Texas??
Regards ,
Doc D

[blackdiamondcobra]

Hi Doc,
Jason is still in texas but I think austin now. if you pm or email, I will try and get his most recent info to you. Jason is a great guy and a wonderful instructor. I think also he is back to teaching.

[destructautomaton]

jason wrote a couple of interesting articles way back that i am searching for. alot were mostly on muay thai

[Fede]

Hi Vincent,

I particularly liked the first dvd with all the different systems and history, it can be expanded greatly but I know it would take a lot of time and dedication.
As far as the Sritrairat school is concerned, too much has been said about it in Italy. I remember one of the instructors there bad mouthing you and your work on their forum and then backing off without proving anything, so it's good there's a neutral and objective view on the Sritrairat and other Thai sword methods. Each deserves attention and respect and each has something worthy, it's in the West that you see distinctions and scales-with the exeption of one or two teachers in THailand who adopted this bad Western way and claim to be grandmasters of this and that when in reality they just pose for money and fame and to satisfy their ego.

Destructo, you are lucky to have the old Black Belt issues and Hardy Stockman's articles, these were written before the KK and Muay nonsense started so they are genuine and must be interesting. I will check the Black Belt digital archive.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Fede:
Thanks for your insights. They can say what they want in Italy, time and the truth will win out that argument. They dont train in reality or work in a space that has any definition. People just learn something and remain in a void without working deeper. Its the students that suffer the most because they are lead to believe in these empty promises of techniques that are bent to whatever definition they want and that really serve a specific purpose but is never used that way. It mostly commercial enterprise and ego jacking and not uncommon. When they are caught in the lies, they spin, re align and try to change things, re align with other people, new approaches, its just an image without a core. The most important thing is to have the core, the strong center, the principles that open and flower into the different avenues. In the end, the trail of deceit and subterfuge, is always exposed and defeated.

[destructautomaton]

when i was in europe, i met with some of the kabikrabong people there and was very excited to meet them and possibly train but they seemed very over fanatical and all about this rank and that. it really turned me away and now looking back i can see how lucky i was to have steered myself freeof alotof all that. i never mentioned or even thought about it until reading all this stuff.

[Fede]

Thanks for the answer Vincent,
I see what you mean with having a core structure. I am tempted by Burmese sword methods since I just saw videos of them and I could see similarities with the Thai system I have learned so far. Other Thai sword systems would surely blend in just fine, I am sure. And I think it would go beyond just the technical aspects and be a matter of historical and spiritual aspects which would also blend in very well.

These guys in Italy seem to wander into their own circle and thus preclude themselves other ways of understanding and learning, I mean they shut the door by themselves and as you said it is not uncommon since I experienced it first hand with muay boran and wing chun, where it was mostly about ranking and fanaticism, as Destructo said. Luckily there are exeptions but they are few.

[blackdiamondcobra]

I had a long discussion with an old krabi krabong master about ten years ago in the north on the unique and common aspects of the burmese and thai methods. He was interested in exploring and understanding the burmese weapons art even at his advanced age.

The northern methods of krabi krabong have the unique footwork grid on the ground and the more rounded circular movements and subtle footwork patterns we see in some of the burmese methods of weapons work.

Its important to note the work of King Naresuan who was taken hostage by the Burmese in his youth and trained by them, in the evolution of the war or battlefield thai martial systems. He eventually gained his freedom and went back to Thailand to reinvigorate and re establish the thai military with his own methods based upon his knowledge of both the best of the burmese and thai systems. He later established strong training centers for the spread of these systems to fortify the kingdoms military. As well he was an advocate of the bare knuckle systems which were used in additional contexts different from war and battle.

I feel for my own research, training and depth of understanding, training in the burmese and cambodian systems have lended great a deal to understanding the thai martial systems especially when you run across the oldest practiced systems which are generally purely combative in nature.

In the north, we practiced with live sharpened steel swords and we did practice cuts against various thin trees, stumps, thick rope as well as large trees. We see the art of the live steel sharpened sword almost a lost art now but its vital to understanding the combative thai sword work and it must be taught and understood.

The methods as well of King nareusans original systems are still alive as well, and you can see right away, the extensive footwork patterns and movement is distinctly different from what is commonly practiced in phys ed krabi krabong. The use of elevation and continuous cut and move is stressed right from the beginning.

[Fede]

Thanks again for your explanations, Vincent, I didn't know that King Naresuan was also trained by the Burmese.

The practice with trees and stumps is interesting, I sometimes practice among trees too and it is excellent to practice the movements and hits/cuts as if the trees were real enemies, there I could have a glimpse on how the footwork and round movements work. Sure it needs to be enlarged and made alive but it was good for practicing the different movements.

I remember my teacher corrected me many times at the beginning when we practiced with woodden swords since I just hit, it looked a bit awkward at first but once you think about the live blade it becomes clear.

[BigWilliam]

William,any updates on the site or any developments? I am interested in keeping up with this.

Thank you for asking!

I'm still working at it slowly but surely. Unfortunately some folks seem a little leery about contributing which is understandable according to the history as I've recently been informed. But, I'll keep plugging at it and hopefully things will come around. I'm just interested in seeing all aspects of KK getting covered.

It's great to see this thread continue with excellent information. Vincent, something coming your way...sorry for the delay.


Best regards,
William

[BigWilliam]

I remember my teacher corrected me many times at the beginning when we practiced with woodden swords since I just hit, it looked a bit awkward at first but once you think about the live blade it becomes clear.


Very true. Blade orientation and differences between striking with an impact weapon vs a bladed weapon is one aspect I try to constantly drive home. The majority of the time people train with wooden training blades/sticks and it's easy to get into the habit/mechanic of striking instead of cutting. Blade shaped wooden swords will help with the blade orientation, but there's nothing like working with real steel.


Best regards,
William

[destructautomaton]

Thanks for the update william. i guess some people have different focus and things they want to do that is importnat to them but hopefully things will happen in time.

loved the info on the different sword training and the ideas of the burmese arts. great stuff.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Fede:

The reason for the live steel training is also to learn how to deal with the weight of the weapon and how to utilize the difference aspects of it. Its different from a blunt object or stick. Utilizing the stick likewise you want to work it at its highest function with speed and power.

Lets saying cutting into something might yield an outcome when the blade becomes stuck into bone or an object, which is a reality sometimes in the heat of the moment. So learning how to deal with things like that through various target training really enhances your skill set.

Cutting through, as in slicing through the target needs development and practice and again the target training helps that through repetition and practice.

Some of the teachers as william alluded to crafted very well made KK sword replicas in hard work with a nice edge on them to practice with as well. Soft swords were custom made for practice into soft targets or vulnerable areas like throat or eyes so you could practice some of the combat techs relatively safely with googles, etc. This was all done in thailand but the various teachers, in each case, I found they all came up with interesting ways to work.

We discussed also in emails the heavier kom faeq stickwork and that is an interesting addition for heavy weapon work and as an overall training tool.

There is a massive toolbox available for training the weapons in more realistic and flexible pathways and alot of that innovation and technology was already in place from the old masters who stressed function.

[Fede]

Hi Vincent,

it's true, I trained with different Thai swords, different weights, shapes, length and so on and each calls for a different usage. I couldn't always do the same things with all the swords, it called for a change of movement and for a different training. Maybe it could be the same difference there is between using a light gun and a heavy rifle.

Again in the Buddhai Sawan Path there are many kinds of swords and these are just a fraction of all the swords there are in SE Asia.
My teacher once showed me an old and very light sword, with a very narrow blade. it could almost be used as if it was a knife and I loved that, very tricky and fast. He also told me they were still used by the Thai Yai (don't know the spelling for that) tribes alongside guns in the north of Thailand as the border with Burma isn't safe.

Kom Faeq is interesting as it is very simple and direct (from what I have seen) I saw school kids practicing that in Thailand, that must have been the Phys Ed. version of it but still I could see the economy of movements.

There is so much to learn which is great.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Fede:

Yes, you are correct, there is alot of different and unique swords in the SE Asia arsenal. I tried to expand past what was commonly used and shown in the DVD to show alot of the different variations or as much as I had access to.It was important to go beyond just the commonly seen and used.

Like you said, some blades are lighter and faster. I have one I got in Burma and I just love it, its got the power and weight to do damage but its light enough to move fast, the blade is not as thick and the handle not as long as the tradition swords. Its one of my personal favorites.

Kon Faeq is simple and direct, its a compact and concise weapon that can learned in a short space of time but also provides other attributes that can add alot to your weapons training.

The kids do use it in their phys ed programs as another part of their krabi krabong and muay boran classes.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Just needed to make a clarification, the kom faeq is not specifically a heavy weapon but usually we make heavy sticks to practice then when using the lighter and faster kom faeq it gives some extra attribute development. As Fede pointed out to me, originally we talked about the type used by children in their phys ed classes, while my post was more referring to the heavier police/military/security kom faeq weaponry usage which is heavier with the tip for the combative training.

[destructautomaton]

There seems to be alot of good information coming forward and slowly filling the gaps between alot of the early writing and now.

[blackdiamondcobra]

DA:
There has been a huge resistance to new and vital information for a long time. I mean even to get people to understand and agree that there are several different systems of krabi krabong both new and old was close to impossible and still to do this day meets heavy resistance though its a well researched, trained and understood fact. People say they want the information but how they want it dispensed and controlled is another matter. The most important thing is the vitality and understanding of the system be reinstated in a new vibrant way with great depth not only in the factual writing but the actual application and training of the techniques solidified by understanding the roots theories and principles that govern it. We will see if that comes to be.

[Stickgrappler]

hello:

*bows deeply to all*

THANK YOU for an informative and enjoyable read one and all!

for the record, the Hardy Stockman article is:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HtcDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA9&source=gbs_toc_pages&cad=0_1#PPA14,M1

i had ebayed for this, won it, and about a week after i received it in the mail, i found out about google books and its archives of black belt magazine lol

my sincerest thanks once again to one and all.

very truly yours in the MA,

~sg

[destructautomaton]

Thanks for the article link!

[Fede]

Thank you very much for the article.

I enjoyed reading it and looking at the pictures. This is the best descrtiption of phis ed. Krabi Krabong I have read, it did look more dangerous and serious than it has been for the past 15 years or so.
Big difference with the descriptions of KK I had read before.
Ther's no mention of lineage, of people being the first to do this and that and so on which was the first thing that struck me. No politics and no ego, they were clearly absent in the Thai martial arts of the seventies, just think about what's been happening in the recent years and you get the picture.
This aticle should be enough to prove some people and their claims wrong, and it beats all the KK articles I have read so far and older articles by Ajarn Tamez or Ajarn Webster must be equally interesting.

[blackdiamondcobra]

The late Hardy stockman who was the editor of the Bangkok Post did a tremendous amount of the early writing and research in english on Muay Thai and Krabi Krabong. His early book the first in english on muay thai is still one of the best for me because he captures it at that time and provides a lot of interesting details. He was very direct and blunt and always concise which merged well with my own temperament.

The late Ajarn Khetr, the great master of Muay Chaiya, a noted writer himself wrote the introduction for the Muay Thai book which was translated to english. Hardy was close friends with Khetr and Ajarn Thonglor and my direct introduction to the late Ajarn Thonglor came directly from him. I would not have been able to go and train with ajarn thonglor without his intercession and we did an interview together with him so I learned directly how to navigate the sometime rough waters of dealing with the various thai masters and teachers. He gave me an understanding of a period of muay chaiya that I wasnt present for and that was the era of Ajarn Khetr. So I got endless insight and knowledge from him every step of the way.

Before Hardy died, he gave me a tremendous amount of information from his library. He wanted to update and expand the original Muay Thai book and we discussed possibly working together on that. The project is still not dead because Hardy's widow and i might carry on the project. I was always proud of the fact that when people came to research or train muay thai, he would call me and have me take the people to the camps to introduce them to the art.

The Krabi Krabong articles does show the earlier era krabi krabong where it was actually flourishing through the universities and grade schools. It actually had a progression because as a college course it got rougher, the full contact matches were excellent at that level. You got to train really hard at the phys ed new form of krabi krabong, it was the balance between the dancing or forms and the two man drills. After the slow elimination or lessening of the sparring, the balance began to be skewered. Some of the rougher styles of Krabi kabong like chao phraya which is not phys ed, use full contact throughout their training and its one of the toughest systems out there and shows that contact is vital and an integral part of kk.

It seems after that period there was a stress on dancing or weapons forms and rigorous discipline and training of the basics with less sparring. Dancing or forms competition became popular with medals awarded for solo, partner and other displays at the yearly competition. This became more or less the modern template we see today in the buddhai sawan, sitarait and other schools who play a major part in the phys ed matrix.

[BigWilliam]

Thank you for posting the link. I had not seen this article before.




William


hello:

*bows deeply to all*

THANK YOU for an informative and enjoyable read one and all!

for the record, the Hardy Stockman article is:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HtcDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA9&source=gbs_toc_pages&cad=0_1#PPA14,M1

i had ebayed for this, won it, and about a week after i received it in the mail, i found out about google books and its archives of black belt magazine lol

my sincerest thanks once again to one and all.

very truly yours in the MA,

~sg

[Fede]

It is great info on Muay Chaiya, it was clearly a different world back then.
No emails, no websites and very few articles and books on the subject so you really had to search and dig things out and prove your integrity.

It's good you were good friends with Hardy Stockman and had access to his material, there is a direct bridge linking the past and the present under which there is the sea of chayia madness and politics. Also having access to the late Ajarn Thonglor was a lucky thing indeed I can only imagine where I and others could have ended with all the bad info of a foreign student of his.

I think it still is like this today, but there are many people and false info so you have to move more carefully and avoid that, I am aware of the fact there are still true masters of Chaiya, Korat, but unless I am personally introduced by someone who knows me well enough I will never have access to the true material.
Even when I started learning sword I wasn't taught the real usage until my teacher knew me well enough. He even told me he had nothing more to teach me which was not possible !
It looks like 70's movies situation but it's really like that and I understand why.

The Chao Praya KK must be tremendous, I read it was kept alive and upgraded to real world confrontations. Quite unheard of in the Thai KK landscape and it's the phys ed. guys who get all the publicity and fame telling the world that they hold the truth and the original and unique system !!

[blackdiamondcobra]

Hardy's early work is a solid link and a bridge to the early writings on the thai martial arts. I am going to try and compile a large body of his work possibly when i return to thailand soon.

Even with the chao praya system, the master died and all his students dispersed. So although known to the thais, the system could easily vanish unless properly documented and demonstrated. Equally we see alot of the bare knuckle systems vanishing equally over time. Two or three of the major fighting systems have slowly died away with only a few people who even remember them or can demonstrate them accurately still alive today. Left in the modern landscape with alot of bad recreations through texts from the phys ed department. We see also with the buddhai sawan, once ajarn samai died, the buddhai sawan closed, interest waned and luckily he had enough written about him, his system absorbed by the phys ed department and more than enough instructors including his sons to maintain its existence into the future.

If like all the current bare knuckle teachers say that the interest was there all along which is not an accurate statement and make me wonder when and if they trained, why did these systems just vanish? It was only after the sort of rebirth and resurgence due to the films, media and the physical education department did people run back to sort of try to desperately save anything they could find more to exploit than perserve it? Its really staggering to me the huge body of knowledge that is simply left behind only to watch at some point someone give it some validity and the desperate attempts to piece it back together again. Even more I watch it happening in my own lifetime.

[Fede]

Hi Vincent,

very true, I think modern muay boran is the perfect example. I took classes of that and I just had to leave. It did look like a patchwork, there was no continuity and consintency in the teaching I found it was rubbish.

It's true it all escalated after Ong Bak, I saw it happen and it was funny to watch as different foreign teachers put pictures of Tony Jaa and say this is what we teach, the true old Thai martial arts, and they were even backed by the Phys. Ed department of Thailand. A good way to impress foreigners and Thais alike and I bought into that as well.

I look at boxing and I see better answers, I look at pugilism and I see beter anwsers too. Thailand had a great past of many confrontations and wars, how could one just think that the current "mainstream" KK or muay boran would have worked in actual wars ? It's an easy thing to do, you have not much time to think and prepareyourself/check your foorwork/your stance and so on, I mean it's war the ground isn't even soldiers are running all around willing to kill there's not much time to think and I see these clean patterns that are suppposed to work ?
It doesn't make much sense to me, and the training you mentioned previously kind of sets the bar, there's no such thing around these days and it's enough to prove the validity of some modern systems.
Another reason why the Chao Praya system is very interesting and valuable, I hope it won't die out and stay alive with the teaching of some instructors and I hope to see it one day.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Fede:
I honestly don't know what will happen in the years to come but judging on what has happened in the last two decades as indicators of the future, I think we will see the final erosion and disappearance of the true older systems. It seems if someone feels they can exploit an aspect of the art then they run with it or else it seems like too much work for too little a return. We can also write about it, expose it in a positive light, encourage people to train, but we also need the teachers to be able to go to and send prospective students to. In the case of chao praya, it will remain to be seen if it will survive into the future.

The problem is resistence, even internally within thailand and other countries, if the agenda is opposite of their own, they will fight it down. We see in the US, the continual fight against opening the vista, exposing the other sides to things.

We've covered a lot of ground on this thread and we have focused on many important issues. I don't want to keep running over the same ground. As people said they want the information and they want teachings, the well is deep and the information and training is there, lets see who goes to get it.

[Fede]

Vincent:
I see this problem, something's definitely wrong with some people.
You say they will fight down what is opposite their agenda, but the
way they fight it down is not honorable and doesn't prove anyhing worthy in my opinion.

As far as this thread is concerned, I would really like to ask more info especially about the Chao Praya KK, the way I see it it's the ideal continuation of the primal usage of KK adapted to more modern situations-but I think I should take this elsewhere or wait for your book.

This Thai picture is looking more and more like a cultural and physical preservation of old paintings and monuments, and these are the systems that would be more alive and valuable in a fairer society.

[destructautomaton]

fede: it seems most of the interest for the other krabikrabong methods came from outsiders meaning europeans or americans that bring these things back out. i am hoping for the best in the future for the other methods to come back alive someone through the work of all these greatpeople on this thread doing amazing work.

[Fede]

Hi DA.
I totally agree with that. My teacher knows Chinese and Thai martial arts, and when I first met him he told me I was his first muay Lanna student despite the fact that he's had many students. That is because in Thailand, taekwon do, karate and kung fu rule the scene of martial arts and Thaiboxing is (dis)regarded as a thing for poor, low class people, which I think it is. And guess what, it was an American who did lots of research who luckily sent me to my teacher. As you said, the interest is mostly from America and then Europe, and thanks God there are serious people among them who inject some truth and balance out all the ancient muay nonsense we see today.

[destructautomaton]

Fede:thats an incredible story! you are truly lucky, i am hoping for more info to open up because its fascinating and it seem the stories of meeting and finding out about these teachers is equally interesting. it looks like because of popular movies like ongbak everyone went toward the bare hand fighting so maybe something with weapons will open that end up inthe future.

[Fede]

Hi Destructo,

doors can open up but I agree it's difficult to see the light for some Thai sword systems. I guess you are in the US so maybe there are still active teachers who can teach them as we mentioned in earlier posts, or who bring back what they learned in a positive light. They are a rare thing but they exist! My teacher has an American instructor but I don't think he will be back in the US at least for now.

[blackdiamondcobra]

Its going to come down to more open minded people who are very serious who can not only learn but teach and write about the systems to expand the base of understanding. That has been thwarted so far also by the very distortion of presentation and lack of understanding. You can see a thai military man as i recently witnessed doing a demo but doing the full phys ed techniques. So you might say a military person doing combat kk but it wasnt at all. One must remember alot of military endorse the phys ed way of doing it because they believe it is the "superior" way to teach the masses and the easiest way to communicate it to foreigners. As I said there is nothing wrong with this but if one would define the teaching methodology and what it is then it becomes clearer and easily understood by the public.

There needs to be more clarity and definition because so far kk has thrived on haziness, distortion and a lack of clarity not only in the different histories but in the presentation of the physical system and techniques. Its true that learning in another culture, in another language compounds many of these things. I call it "the accordian" and something I tell my students who go to train in SE Asia, no matter how long you learn there, when you come home, you have to expand the accordian and then compress it and expand it for the music to start to flow. I feel when you learn its so much to absorb, then you have to perfect it for yourself, translate material, correspond it to what you know, formulate questions, then work on it. Its a continual process. So at first its all this material compressed in your head, then you release it, absorb it ,question it, train it, make it your own, then open the accordian as the flow happens, then compress it by really defining it and making it your own, then you open it and it starts to breath. I only really breath it and see it after the years of going back, year after year, translating more, training more--- that things become clear and I can write about it, teach it, debate it and make it live in any way that i need it to.

But there is no rapid solution to this because essentially people ascribe to a certain theory, a certain rank structure and they wont let it go because it becomes their very identity and the truth often times threatens that. If one is a true student and a true master, you always will go for the higher ground, to keep evolving, keep learning, peeling away at the layers until you get to the fruit, the higher essence.

In the long run, I think its going to be with the smaller more serious groups of people like it has here in the US that the other systems will move forward both here and abroad. And thats ok, because its forward momentum and its survival of the systems. There are alot of serious, very gifted KK people here and abroad but they work out of the commercial spectrum or limelight but they are more than willing to teach and help. Their work as well as mine will constantly evolve and continue regardless of what is going on around us. That is what we might have to accept for now.

[Fede]

Hi Vincent,

I liked the accordian example. It's not about learning new things and new techniques, it's just small things, small nuances that ultimately make a difference for you. The more I practice, the more I see this. And the more I go back to learn with my teacher, the more (the less!) I bring back to myself. I haven't done that for a long period, but it does start to show little by little.
The last time I saw my teacher he left me with a "practice until you understand" and this says a lot to me. I cannot wait to be back there and show him what I understand,I'll se what happens.
It sounds like mystical zen stuff but in the end it's just this.

I am happy to hear there are groups who teach and evolve outside the publicity and claims, that is the way I would like to follow as well, my choice.

[blackdiamondcobra]

The accordion principle was something i used when trying to teach someone in a rapid manner, meaning in compressed time as one usually does when training in a foreign country. In my early travels, i was working within several months of training time then I would come home and try to decompress it and work on it bit by bit, later on when i stayed for a full year or more, the training was slower and time was given for it to sink it, to make it your own then to refine it and contour it to your own self.

[destructautomaton]

going through everything it seems there is a difference between going through the system as a combative vehicle and as a phys ed type of route what would be some of the things one would look for because its hard to see since one system seems to prevail and the other forgotten or lost or hidden........

[Fede]

Thank you for the explanation, Vincent. I understand this principle better now.

Yes there are many sword systems in Thailand, the risk to see one forgotten over the other is always there. These systems were passed on because it meant survival at the time. Now what is being passed on is Phys Ed because....it is education for the schools and universities. A good thing, but far and different from the old systems which have the original survival/combative aspects integrated in them.

I think old sword systems will stay in the shade unless Tony Jaa decides to make a new Ong Bak focusing on Thai swords. I can guarantee that if he did that, masters would pop up all around out of nowhere and for the usual trivial purposes.

[destructautomaton]

great point, fede,its always some film or something that sends the interest soaring, a film by tony jaa on weapons not only would be amazing but would spark interest like crazy......lets hope that actually happens

[blackdiamondcobra]

Deciphering the different forms of kk, as destructautomaton asks, you look first at the overall structure of the teaching syllabus. You will see a great amount of combative utility stripped away in the phys ed courses(although the veneer or presentation might be rough and tumble or tough, taught by a military person or done in a temple or whatever). There will be a general focus on "forms" or dancing the weapon and doing repetitive two man drills(and you will see competitions for that throughout the year as well). Presentation and accuracy of presentation is paramount along with aesthetics. You will have a great structure and progressive learning map well laid out for teaching and training. We sometimes refer to this new format of training krabi krabong as new kk, as opposed to old or functional combative kk, to help distinguish it further.

In the phys ed format as well, the live steel, especially sharpened steel are generally not stressed and there will be a exchange of using wood mostly then steel later (as well as for demos), no actual test cutting or learning to cut into, through and at a person and how to develop and those shots along with dealing with blood and killing will be discussed or demonstrated. In combative kk, forms are much later in the training and are used for presentation at special events but mostly for centering(meditative), footwork and the many footwork patterns are stressed, stance and guardwork, high to low patterns, learning to deal and handle a real steel sword, drilling on developing speed and power, generally targeting right away is to disable or kill the opponent, the mind set and meditations that lead one to survive a combative situation, two man is less what i call "riding the rails" where two people face off and go back and forth and striking into a sword is rarely seen, the combative footwork patterns are stressed within those drills and they tend to be shorter and more explosive.

Thats a general overview of course there are different systems and training evolutions for each. Some phys ed might incorporate a bit more of the contact side especially in the college courses where they will actually spar like in the combative form. Likewise you might see the use of "soft" swords or wood covered with form, in combative forms to teach the eye shots and various other sensitive target shots, and any other shots that cant realistically be practiced into the target with wood or steel.

Its impossible to condense all this down into something overly simplistic since the role and evolution of phys ed-- what it means and how it is interpreted by the Thais and the thai teaching system is important to understand as much as the training itself and why combative has been pushed out and away much like the earlier bare knuckle systems were generally abandoned in the face of the new evolution toward ring Muay Thai. We see this new format of old muay forms known as muay boran in the same light, where aesthetics and presentation are paramount over fighting, understanding utility or function preparations. Even within the authentic systems or surviving systems like muay chaiya, we see they have abandoned any type of function or competing to strangely fight over aesthetics, hierarchy of teachers, and exact replicas of movements without any life or force thus antiquing the system. I mention this only because these are recent things in muay and muay boran and its something that has already happened to kk and the old weapons systems so much so that one cant even tell anymore whats real.

We would have to go into a system by system analysis to show the very intricate differences which once shown in detail will produce an enormous amount of clarity and understanding.

[destructautomaton]

I see how its really difficult to get the insight needed to see this without being involved from sort of the inside I do appreciate the insights because it does help alot to look at things in a different light so to speak. thanks for taking the time to answer my question!

[blackdiamondcobra]

Yes, its very twisted, you want to go with the modality that emphasizes what you are doing. if you want to fight with it, spar and use it for function then you need to stress the combative systems, if you try to bend the phys ed systems you are twisting it so outside the realm because its targeting and two man drills and its structure are so different that you are just trying to validate a point that doesnt match the intention and creation of the very system(which is what you see alot these days). Thats another point to watch for, someone saying they fight with it, then not using any of it because essentially they really cant. Once i saw the functional side of things it became easier to use it, not only to use but to see the links between the older bare hand tactics and the principles that lead and bled into muay thai. You cant see those dimensions and those links anymore from phys ed, its too blurred and moved away from the primal source and teachings. Theres nothing wrong with either method or doing both or just doing phys ed but i learned both and thats how i came to these ideas, not from conjecture, or my teacher told me or whatever, from experience so you can extract from that what you will and hope it helps you on your journey.

[destructautomaton]

thanks again for taking the time to write, you definitely provided a tremendous amount of food for thought on the topic for me as i want togo to thailand to train in a few months and want to experience the different ways myself. i think your experience shows in the clearness of your work and your passions for it, i reread the vanishingflame reports as much as i can and the various dvds, it shows a staggering amount of training and research over many years, do you think in the end people will be open to understanding the different ways or is it just too much politics involved at this point/

fede--i know you train and live in thailand from time to time, do you feel in your training you are getting the deeper methodstoo from your teachers since i feel they are teaching you all this or at least understand this better than me

[Fede]

Hi DA,

that's cool you want to go to Thailand, good luck with that!

I have one teacher in Thailand, and yes I feel I have known more and more. I never learned dances, first the grid to learn the solid steps. Then techniques, the movements. and the last time I was there I learned what to do with a sword, the real usage or one way of using it in that aspect. I "died" many times, it never lasted long!

But when I look at Vincent's posts I can see how much more there still is to learn, I do not know if my teacher knows that combative taining but I wouldn't be surprised if he does since he learned the true material with old masters among the hills.

Thanks a lot for your posts Vincent, there is a gulf between the two ways of training. I see what you say with the bending of a system and trying to make it fit, it's like trying to open a lock with the wrong key.

[destructautomaton]

Hi fede, i always wanted to go but this thread definitely sparked the need in me to do it now! So much of this information is just so hard to obtain and here its clear sighted and much easier to understand, i can at least begin the journey with a great deal of insight than i had before.

[Fede]

Well, you have more insights than what I had the time I first went to train in Thailand. Not that I didn't have good info, but it wasn't as much as it has been given here on the forum.

I am glad I can contribute with some info of my own experience, it's just a little thing but it's a lot compared to where I was when I first started learning. I want to learn and learn, that's always an ongoing process!

[destructautomaton]

Thanks, Fede I appreciate your help as well as the others. I am hoping to go in december so i am working on my options. i think also some of the threads went missing or else its just me? Was hoping for some more updates on the krabi krabong usa etc.

[Fede]

No, the forum had some problems and some threads have been lost.

Good luck for your trip to Thailand.

[BigWilliam]

Thank you, I really appreciate reading everyone’s contributions to this thread. The interest in, and knowledge of KK in its various forms is very refreshing.

I just wanted to share a few picts of one of our sparring sessions but since I apparently can’t post photos here I’ll add a link to another forum where they are posted. Since there may be differing thoughts on what we do, make of them what you will.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/thaiboxing-kickboxing/33845-krabi-krabong-sparring.html

DA, wishing you the best of luck and safe travels if you are able to go.

Thanks,
William

[destructautomaton]

Thanks for the photos. Its like old school krabikrabong and what the dog brothers developed in their system with krabikrabong,they trailblazed that. unfortunately i dont see any interest on the various threads here or on other forums sadly for krabikrabong, even though the info is tremendously deep.

[sungkit]

Though I am not a practitioner of Krabi Krabong and do not live in the USA, I have found the information provided on this thread to be informative, interesting and helpful.

I am a practitioner of FMA having trained in Australia as well as the Philippines. However my housemate lived in Thailand for over a decade working and training in Muay Thai. Since I will be travelling there with him in April 2010 I would like to undertake some intensive training in an authentic combative system of Krabi Krabong and I would very much appreciate it if I could be pointed in the right direction to where this kind of training can be undertaken.

Thanks and Happy New Year to all!

Regards,

david

[BigWilliam]

Though I am not a practitioner of Krabi Krabong and do not live in the USA, I have found the information provided on this thread to be informative, interesting and helpful.

I am a practitioner of FMA having trained in Australia as well as the Philippines. However my housemate lived in Thailand for over a decade working and training in Muay Thai. Since I will be travelling there with him in April 2010 I would like to undertake some intensive training in an authentic combative system of Krabi Krabong and I would very much appreciate it if I could be pointed in the right direction to where this kind of training can be undertaken.

Thanks and Happy New Year to all!

Regards,

david


David,

Did you make it to train in Thailand? If you did, can you share your experiences with us?



Best regards,
William

[BigWilliam]

Well, I have finally got around to start building a Krabi Krabong resource page. If anyone has info about schools, instructors, videos, or articles about KK they would like to be included please email or PM me the details. I'm looking to add any and all resources from the U.S. and abroad.


Best regards,
William

[destructautomaton]

this was recently posted by steven wilson could you tell us what the heck it means??
Krabi-Krabong, unlike muay Thai, is a war art. As such, it is vitally important that no posers try to teach. Each licensed instructor will have certification signed by officials of the Ministry of Education and the representative of the Thai Army. It is too dangerous to allow anyone unlicensed to teach weapons, and quite possibly could be considered fraud or a 'bunko' scheme by state attorneys general.
is this serious or some kind of a joke? i mean if unity is the key why would somebody bother when this stuff is being circulated and sent around? also who is he calling a poser? appreciate the convo here but am confused about all of what is happening

[Fede]

I believe it is all phys ed stuff with the military signing certificates.... I mean, why would they sign them if it wasn't phys ed??

I also read of people saying that this or that teacher is the last remaining master
of KK....first of all, there are many indigenous systems in Thailand, and there are teachers who are still active including some old masters. So how come did I read about "last remaining masters" of "lost heritage"? There are specific lineages so there is no mistake about who is who and who learned what with whom, and I believe-I didn't do my homework on it-that these teachers would be recognized as true and legit even by the military, without needing their certificates.

[BigWilliam]

this was recently posted by steven wilson could you tell us what the heck it means??
Krabi-Krabong, unlike muay Thai, is a war art. As such, it is vitally important that no posers try to teach. Each licensed instructor will have certification signed by officials of the Ministry of Education and the representative of the Thai Army. It is too dangerous to allow anyone unlicensed to teach weapons, and quite possibly could be considered fraud or a 'bunko' scheme by state attorneys general.
is this serious or some kind of a joke? i mean if unity is the key why would somebody bother when this stuff is being circulated and sent around? also who is he calling a poser? appreciate the convo here but am confused about all of what is happening


Where and when was this posted? I'm curious, Steve has never said anything like this to me. In my experience he has always been very open and inclusive.


Best regards,
William

[destructautomaton]

came directly from his facebook page posted in the last couple of days.
its kind of frightening in its delusion-dont you think?
he said this too this was earlier and the above post is second they roll hand in hand"""Saturday, 5 March is the birthday of the last GreatGrandmaster of Krabi-Krabong, Samai Masamarn. Anyone with true respect for Thai National Martial Arts should honor his memory with honesty and humility, and not be afraid to show their papers to anyone who asks."""
nice tribute post but what does show their papers to anyone who asks mean? again sort of ego ranting.if a person does have the papers what does it mean? sort of opposite of honesty and humity open and inclusive--

just checked to make sure both posts are still up!

[BigWilliam]

Can you pm me or post the link? I'm not finding it.


Thanks,
William

[destructautomaton]

go to facebook,com, log on or join, look for steven wilson or go to this link
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000550021550

if not these are the posts with the date time and responses from his friends

Steven Wilson
Krabi-Krabong, unlike muay Thai, is a war art. As such, it is vitally important that no posers try to teach. Each licensed instructor will have certification signed by officials of the Ministry of Education and the representative of the Thai Army. It is too dangerous to allow anyone unlicensed to teach weapons, and quite possibly could be considered fraud or a 'bunko' scheme by state attorneys general.
Saturday at 2:40pm · Like ·

Steven Wilson
Saturday, 5 March is the birthday of the last GreatGrandmaster of Krabi-Krabong, Samai Masamarn. Anyone with true respect for Thai National Martial Arts should honor his memory with honesty and humility, and not be afraid to show their papers to anyone who asks.
March 3 at 4:13pm · Like ·
3 people like this.
Alex Bay Early Happy Teacher's Day to you, Ajarn Steve.
March 3 at 4:40pm · Like
Gabi Maxwell I agree

[BigWilliam]

go to facebook,com, log on or join, look for steven wilson or go to this link
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000550021550

if not these are the posts with the date time and responses from his friends

Steven Wilson
Krabi-Krabong, unlike muay Thai, is a war art. As such, it is vitally important that no posers try to teach. Each licensed instructor will have certification signed by officials of the Ministry of Education and the representative of the Thai Army. It is too dangerous to allow anyone unlicensed to teach weapons, and quite possibly could be considered fraud or a 'bunko' scheme by state attorneys general.
Saturday at 2:40pm · Like ·

Steven Wilson
Saturday, 5 March is the birthday of the last GreatGrandmaster of Krabi-Krabong, Samai Masamarn. Anyone with true respect for Thai National Martial Arts should honor his memory with honesty and humility, and not be afraid to show their papers to anyone who asks.
March 3 at 4:13pm · Like ·
3 people like this.
Alex Bay Early Happy Teacher's Day to you, Ajarn Steve.
March 3 at 4:40pm · Like
Gabi Maxwell I agree


Thank you for posting the link.

I can't answer for Ajarn Wilson. My first thought would be that it is directed at individuals who claim Buddhai Sawan lineage who haven't trained it. I will ask the next time I speak with him. I would also suggest that if you are looking for clarification to ask him directly.

As far as what I am trying to do....I'm open to any and all people to be included, even if it's only a mention without direct contact info.



Best regards,
William

[destructautomaton]

well thats YOUR teacher and if thats where the info comes form i cant see how you can have an impartial org just my two cents. certainly turned my stomachreading that and im gungho for krabikrabong

[BigWilliam]

well thats YOUR teacher and if thats where the info comes form i cant see how you can have an impartial org just my two cents. certainly turned my stomachreading that and im gungho for krabikrabong

Yes, he is one of my teachers. Without knowing the context of the the thoughts behind the statement, there is nothing for me to comment on. It is out of the ordinary in my experience.....That is what I can say at this point.

Now, if you were to go back and look at my numerous online posts in the last 12 years or so, you won't find me getting into the politics of martial arts. I was black balled by a former instructor many years ago and it took some time for me to come out of that and for others to realize that what that person was saying was bullshirt. Since that time I steer clear of the politics, rank worship, and paper tigers. All that is important to me is honesty and being able to walk the walk. That is what drives me and that is what I would build an organization on. At this point, I'm just talking about an all inclusive resource page, nothing more.

Best regards,
William

[destructautomaton]

who else did you learn krabikrabong from?since you said you want to do an org later did you go to thailand

[BigWilliam]

I spoke with Steve and as I suspected, those posts were directed at a certain individual running a school and claiming to have a certificate (or "papers") from Ajarn Wilson. He was in no way inferring that all Krabi Krabong practitioners should be showing "papers" to be considered legit.

My comment about an organization was an "if", not a "when". Meaning IF I were to build an organization, it would be built on honesty, respect, and skill, not papers, licensing, or rank fees. At this time I have no plans to build a large organization and I haven't said that anywhere in this thread. What I would like to do is build an unbiased resource to help more people get exposed to KK. I have started one and as Vincent pointed out earlier in the thread, it is weighted toward one lineage at this time. That is because that is the line I know. I will add others as I find them, or as others submit information or point me in the right direction. All I want this to be is a resource where interested people can look to find information and then make their own decisions.


Best regards,
William

[VASI]

kk is cool i finally did a few classes and i dug it, interesting stuff. thai dudes in class were talkin bout stuff liek the early stuff in this thread
different styles and stuff didnt have time to continue but will go back when i jet back to thailand.

[BigWilliam]

Hey folks,

I've been trying to put together a Krabi Krabong Resource page and this is what I've come up with so far...

http://www.mongrelcombativearts.com/krabi_resources_74.html

If you know of any other sources I don't have listed and you would like to share please let me know. It would be much appreciated.


Best regards,
William

Mongrel Combative Arts
Eight Limbs Muay Thai Studios

[blackdiamondcobra]

Please remove my name from that page. Thank you.

[destructautomaton]

not this thread again........