I have always wondered what AK folks do when somebody with a black belt rating in a different striking art walks in to an American Kenpo school and wants to sign up. Does the student wear a white, black or something in between?

Does your answer vary with the art the person studied and how compatible it is with American Kenpo?

In the school where I earned my bb, when shotokan and other traditional types came in they were allowed to wear the black belt and could jump into sparring class right away. However in technique time they had to work out with the beginners and earn their American Kenpo rank.

On the other hand, I've worn the white belt at several alternative schools over the years, and it often makes sense.

What policy do you recommend for American Kenpoists?

I used to let people who had earned their Black Belt in another style wear their Balck Belt in classes. They still did whatever the beginners did. They would have to earn their way up through the ranks in the kenpo system but I would permit them to wear their Balck Belt. I would not allow them to wear an embroidered Balck Belt that had another school name on it, I found it disrectful fro them to be wearing an advertisement for another school. The same thing went for uniforms, you could wear a plain black uniform, no one wore white. It their was a crest for another school it had to be removed, silk screened logos were not allowed either.

Usually whenever I have started with another instructor/school I went back to white belt and wore it until I got to whatever rank I was at.

Which explains why I have crappy rank. Ah ha ha ha!!!

But I never wore rank that I never worked for and I had no problem wearing a white belt again. In fact, sometimes I think Jaybacca ranked me just to stop me from wearing my white belt.

Luckily the school I have just started going to is owned by a friend of Jaybacca's and they let me wear the rank that Jaybacca gave me.

That's right. I have found a school that will let me work out there! YAY! I'm also gonna be polite and respectful and nice and everything! Really, I just don't think my fragile mental state can handle having to move to yet another school.

I just realized I never answered the question.

As for other BB's walking on the floor I have no problem with whatever they wear. The belt shows nothing. You can tell by the way they move where they are at.

I agree with you GouRonin. Besides, it is better to be a white belt that moves like a black belt, rather than be a black belt that moves like a white belt.

Originally posted by shine
I have always wondered what AK folks do when somebody with a black belt rating in a different striking art walks in to an American Kenpo school and wants to sign up. Does the student wear a white, black or something in between?

Does your answer vary with the art the person studied and how compatible it is with American Kenpo?

In the school where I earned my bb, when shotokan and other traditional types came in they were allowed to wear the black belt and could jump into sparring class right away. However in technique time they had to work out with the beginners and earn their American Kenpo rank.

On the other hand, I've worn the white belt at several alternative schools over the years, and it often makes sense.

What policy do you recommend for American Kenpoists?


hehe.. I have a few of those running around in my school. Let me put it the way I put it to them (and well those addicted to stripes);

The belt wrapped around your waste is yours. You earned it and it is you who will have to live up to it, not me. If you want to constantly have old baggage with you wherever you go then act accordingly. If you realize that it is merely a peice of cloth that holds up your pants then act accordingly as well :)

None of them ever show up for class wearing their dans (well ok, one used too but eventually came to his own conclusions when he earned a brown in house) and usually opt to start over. If they want to wear them its fine with me. I don't even usually wear a belt (nevermind the stripes) so I could really care less.

Kids (ie jr blacks) on the other hand start over. I won't have others schools jr black belt trajedies walk into my jr black class as they usually aren't ready for the intensity that our jr blacks are.

just my two centavos.

Peace,
Sandor

Originally posted by GouRonin


That's right. I have found a school that will let me work out there! YAY! I'm also gonna be polite and respectful and nice and everything!

Dare I ask about these other schools you've trained at?!?

Really, I just don't think my fragile mental state can handle having to move to yet another school.

Never mind that now...

...what are you wearing?

=)

:wink:

Originally posted by shine

Never mind that now...
...what are you wearing?


I'm wearing a nice little cotton number that makes me look a lot like Ralph Machio.

I have a black belt in another art, and I'm allowed to wear it in class. I was told it would just confuse the beginners if I were to wear a white belt. I just line up at the end like a white belt would. So I would say, you earned it and should be allowed to wear it, just expect to be treated more like a white belt.

But what about the kenpo rank you'd earn? I have no problem
with someone wearing the rank they've earned, wherever
they've earned it, but where's the kenpo rank, once one is
earned? How is it displayed? Is it typically more important
for a student to display his black, and not even give respect
to his OWN kenpo rank? I'd say at least colored tabs or
something on the black he/she is wearing.

Back about ten years or so ago when I was studying A K I went in with a white belt on after my first class the instructor asked the person I came in with where I had studyed befor and what my rank was. When told that I had a black belt he approched me and insisted that I where it.
I felt out of place in that class for a long time because people would see me in that belt and ask questins i could not answer. It was a great motivator to learn quickly but I never felt right till I earned my first blak for real in that class.
In my own school if a person just wants towork out (on vacation, visiting a friend,ect) I insist they wear there rank belt no matter what color it is( they earned it they wear it) however if they want to study for real put on the white until learning enough to wear the black

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
In my own school if a person just wants towork out (on vacation, visiting a friend,ect) I insist they wear there rank belt no matter what color it is( they earned it they wear it) however if they want to study for real put on the white until learning enough to wear the black

I like this approach for exactly the reasons you mention. I might make an exception in a class I was teaching for someone who studied a FMA so simlar to Modern Arnis that they could provide help; but whenever it's me going into a new class--as I just started doing--I where white. I'm there to learn and I'm trying to empty my cup as best I can.

Back when I was teaching Kenpo, this was a pretty common thing. (Why do people even ask such things?) My take...was that people would absolutely *not* wear a dan grade obi from another style.

Other styles, even within the Kenpo community do things different. Different techniques, modification of basics and whatnot. We would often have people from Shotokan come in, check out class, then storm out when I explained that they couldn't wear their black obi.

Are people so arrogant that the idea of being a beginner again is too hard to grasp?

In our Bujinkan Taijutsu Dojo, we had a former "Koga ryu-ite" (it was pretty comical) who asked our instructor if he could throw on his black belt...his response to "no" was less then favorable.

to most of the instructors I know prefer that the black belt be worn so as not to confuse the lower belts, white, orange etc.
As a black belt it really doesn't matter what style, your going to be much better at the basics, so if your wearing a white belt it could discourage other white belts because you would be doing them easier. But, if the instructor tells you not to wear the black belt you shouldn't take it personal. this is why no matter what rank I am at in Kenpo, I'm at the end of the line, humility. It makes me a better student as well as a better instructor.

As a black belt it really doesn't matter what style, your going to be much better at the basics

I don't agree with that at all. Taking a black belt ranked person from one art doesn't mean they'll pick anything up faster in another art....unless it's another type of the same art (IE -- Kenpo)

Now I've seen people that seem to believe they'll just surpass the rest of the group within weeks because they are dan graded in another art, but they soon find out pretty quick that their ego needs to find their place in things.

Depends on the black belt. If your a new black belt, you might be right. If you have been one for a while you will pick things up quicker than a beginner. Notice the key word, "beginner".
If you limit yourself to just the one art, then again you might have trouble picking stuff up. If there is an ego problem, then they don't need to be there cause they know it all then and won't learn a thing. I've been a black belt since jan. 1987 and after putting it off for so long, I want to become a "certified" black belt in American Kenpo. I do not expect any special treatment cause I'm a black belt either, but I also don't expect it take as long as a "beginner" would. Again, the key word "beginner".

Just tossing in my two yen, and I believe others have already expressed something similar:

If you're training just for fun, informally, etc., and don't plan on ever testing in the new system, by all means, where whatever rank you earned previously.

However, if you plan on actually learning the system and testing for rank in said system, you'd better dig in that closet for your white belt. In my mind, it shows respect to the new instructor and your fellow students that you are willing to start as a beginner and are also willing to 'empty your cup'.

Cthulhu

shows respect to the new instructor and your fellow students that you are willing to start as a beginner and are also willing to 'empty your cup'.

I agree with this 110%. You go to the school to learn, not show off. My GF gladly wears a white belt in our Arnis class, even though she's a 2nd Brown in Kenpo. Why? She respects the system enough to start at the beginning, and will happily work her way up. She even refused to wear her Kenpo gi and got a seperate uniform for training Arnis. Said "Its not right".

She's farther ahead than me, as she sees the similarities in the techniques and can keep track of them better than me.

I think thats it though....while you may be "good" at Art 1, in Art 2 you are a beginner. There are enough differences to keep them seperate arts, so you should treat them as such....until you're a black belt in both, and have made both systems 'yours'.

Just my opinion, certified white belt that I am. :D

:asian:

'empty your cup'.

The witty comeback is: "I'll just get a big American sized cup!"
:p


Does somebody have the original 'empty your cup' story on file we can post here? It's somewhat relevant to the discussion.

I don't care much for the saying myself. The only instructor(s) who used it on me really were incompetant and hiding behind the wise sayings of the East. These instructors were from another martial art, btw.

There is value in the story behind the saying but the way I take it this:

"Show respect in another instructor's school or you will soon find yourself unwanted."

And I think we've all seen it happen ;)

Originally posted by shine


Does somebody have the original 'empty your cup' story on file we can post here? It's somewhat relevant to the discussion.



Oh boy. I'll try to do it from memory, so bear with me...

One day, a professor of philosophy visited a Zen master to discuss philosophy. After talking for a bit over tea, the Zen master realized that the professor was less interested in hearing what he had to say and more interested in spouting his own beliefs. After some time, the master offered to refill the professor's tea.

He poured and poured into the professor's cup until it began overflowing. The professor watched for a moment and spoke up, "Enough! No more will go in." To which the master replied, "To share my tea, you must first empty your cup of your own preconceptions".

...or something to that extent. If I could find my copy of Zen in the Martial Arts, I could do a much better job. Hope this made some sense.

Cthulhu
breaking my brain trying to remember shtuff

Thanks Cthulhu. I did a google and found another version. It wouldn't surprise me if there are several variants of this thing floating around.

My version comes from: http://martialarts.about.com/library/weekly/aa060899.htm

It is attributed to Bruce Lee's BB magazine article Free Yourself From Classical Karate


A learned man once went to a Zen teacher to inquire about Zen. As the Zen teacher explained, the learned man would frequently interrupt him with remarks like, "Oh, yes, we have that too...." and so on.

Finally the Zen teacher stopped talking and began to serve tea to the learned man. He poured the cup full, and then kept pouring until the cup overflowed.

"Enough!" the learned man once more interrupted. "No more can go into the cup!"

"Indeed, I see," answered the Zen teacher. "If you do not first empty the cup, how can you taste my cup of tea?"

I guess if Bruce liked the story I must be wrong to dislike it.:confused:

Just kidding.

So here are 2 interpretations:

1. This is an important jewel of wisdom from the East.

2. This is an example of how you use passive-aggressive tactics to intimidate someone.

Take your pick.

No prob, shine. I just wish I had a better memory. The version you put up sounds a lot like what was in Hyams's Zen in the Martial Arts, which, incidentally, was related to Hyams from Bruce Lee.

Cthulhu

I always thought a killer belt would be one knitted from the pannies of all the girls I've been with- but then again, it may not be long enough to get around me!! BWAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!

"Whoa- watch out for that guy, anyone who is bad enough to have lace edges and bunnyrabbits and flowers on his belt must be one bad mutha!!!"

BWWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!:rofl: :rofl:

Well here is my two yens worth.

When a new student comes in to our school we respect that he/she has learned another art. But when it comes right down to it he is learning a new art, different basics,different terminology, different stances, and comepletly different forms. Sometimes even within the same style. Because of this he/she is to wear the appropriate rank that being white. He/she tests the same as everyone else.
Now it is almost certain that because he/she has had previous experience in other arts whatever that may be, he/she will test sooner than those with less or no experience. For example they do not have to learn balance, coordination, or endurance,as those that have had little or no experience.

Ok we love the what if questions..... so here it goes.

What if:

I were a new student and for some odd reason I decided to take TKD and the teacher seeing my ability allowed me to wear my rank from American Kenpo. I happen to be a black belt in a white belt class. My kicks look better but they are not right, my form is correct for Kenpo but not TKD. The other students may look at me and my rank and say to themselves, 'wow his kicks look really good'. So they start doing them like me. They confuse themselves by color of rank, not by who the real teacher is. I feel it is not fair to the instructor(s).

Thats a little more than 2 yen I do expect some change from this.

:rofl: Michael

Originally posted by vincefuess
I always thought a killer belt would be one knitted from the pannies of all the girls I've been with- but then again, it may not be long enough to get around me!! BWAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!



I guess it depends on the size of the girls...........:eek:

Michael

Originally posted by vincefuess
I always thought a killer belt would be one knitted from the pannies of all the girls I've been with- but then again, it may not be long enough to get around me!! BWAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!

"Whoa- watch out for that guy, anyone who is bad enough to have lace edges and bunnyrabbits and flowers on his belt must be one bad mutha!!!"

BWWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!:rofl: :rofl:

That is all fine and dandy when the ladies are young and slender, when they get a older and the waists expand it isn't pretty.

Legendary singer Tom Jones once said in the late 90's, "the beautiful young ladies who came to see me in the 60 and threw their panties on stage at me, it was a splendid time. Now those same ladies still come to see and still throw their panties. there have been times when I thought the light s went out because of the rushing darkness"

I know this was off topic but I had to put my 2 cents in.

There have been ONE OR TWO whose underthings could get around me TWICE. Just one or two, mind you....:rofl:

That's one or two too many! lol
:eek:

Since I posted the Tom Jones story, I have been having nightmares on a daily basis about being buried alive in granny panties. What horrid dreams.

Ewwwwwwwwwwww now Im gonna have nightmares!

:rpo:

Then it is true, I am the bringer of all things evil.

I bet Ashida Kim could hide in one of those sets of panties or maybe even turn himself into a set of oversized granny panties.

Gross! LOL Did Gou see them?
:rofl:

Only in my nightmares, but that is close enough.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I have known a few REALLY HOT babes who liked grannie pannies cuz they were comfortable... you can learn an appreciation for them in the right circumstances!!

If Jennifer Aniston were stripping down, getting ready to "get funky" with you, and she peeled off her jeans to reveal a big honking set of grannie pannies, would that make Mr. Johnson drive south?

Didn't think so... :D

Alright, guys...back on topic.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I agree with this 110%. You go to the school to learn, not show off. My GF gladly wears a white belt in our Arnis class, even though she's a 2nd Brown in Kenpo. Why? She respects the system enough to start at the beginning, and will happily work her way up. She even refused to wear her Kenpo gi and got a seperate uniform for training Arnis. Said "Its not right".


This is similar to my way of thinking. When I first began Ryukyu training, I was a senior green belt in Parker Kenpo, preparing for brown. My new instructor told me I could wear my Kenpo uniform and belt if I so desired. I felt that it would have been extremely pretentious to do so.

Besides which, it would not have been seen for what it is by the other students, or instructors, because in Ryukyu Kempo, the green belt and the purple belts are reversed, so my perceived rank would have been lower than my actual.

Of course one the bigger advantages is when someone who doesn't know your background decides to play a little harder than normal, you just take it in your stride, drop a few American Kenpo techniques on them, and just leave them laying there wondering what hit them.:rofl:

--Dave

:asian:

I'm big in my organization on uniformity and also within each studio.

Nothing distracts more than a variety of different uniform styles and belts that are from various other diciplines.

It confuses everybody and looks like hell!

If you are at a samuri studio then look like one! If you are at a Kenpo studio then look like one!
If you are at a Kali studio then look like one!

Be consistant and uniform with the system you are in at the time.

But that's just my opinion.

:asian:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I'm big in my organization on uniformity and also within each studio.

Forget it bub. I am not replacing my logo with the universal symbol on my left arm.
:cuss:

I don't mind one armed students one bit. They need and have the right to learn just as everyone else does.

:asian:

You can call me the "One-armed-bandit" then!
:iws:

And what a good right hand it is! Doggone it.
:rofl:

I had started my MA training with EPAK through blue belt and then my teacher move and the only thing around was AK so I recieve my 1st BB in that. However, a littel over 2 years ago I started back in kenpo and I was told that I should not wear my AK rank but I did not go back to white belt. I started at blue and progressed on through the ranks and Sat I take my BB exam again. I must say that this was a VERY difficult thing to do in manny ways but in the long run it made me grow as a person and made me a even more detailed kenpoist.

So if I pass my exam this weekend can I add my 2 1st dan ranks and call myself a 2nd dan?

hehehehehe
Great post!

it makes sense to me......
:D

Mr C, does that mean I can add up my dan ranks too?:D

Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo
I started at blue and progressed on through the ranks and Sat I take my BB exam again.

Good luck on your exam!

Originally posted by Atlanta-Kenpo
I had started my MA training with EPAK through blue belt and then my teacher move and the only thing around was AK so I recieve my 1st BB in that.

Now I'm confused. I learned EPAK here on this board. I thought it was Ed Parkers American Kenpo.

Somehow I also thought that AK was American Kenpo. These two should be identical, but I don't think that Atlanta-Kenpo sees it that way.

So what is EPAK and what is AK?

Thanks in advance. :asian:

P.S. I guess I need Atlanta-Kenpo to answer that for it to make sense but after that if anyone else has another interpretation that may also be interesting. Is there a Glossary on Martial Talk? Could there be? If everyone didn't follow it, I don't guess it would work. :eek:

I was thrown by that at first too ... but I assumed at that point
that it's "American Karate"

Originally posted by Seig
Mr C, does that mean I can add up my dan ranks too?:D

Of course, but then you have to explain to people the stripes then they may look at you like they look at that Steve Spry character.:rofl:

Then everybody would then think you joined some association from California that promotes similar to that!

:rofl:

Originally posted by shine
I have always wondered what AK folks do when somebody with a black belt rating in a different striking art walks in to an American Kenpo school and wants to sign up. Does the student wear a white, black or something in between?

Does your answer vary with the art the person studied and how compatible it is with American Kenpo?

In the school where I earned my bb, when shotokan and other traditional types came in they were allowed to wear the black belt and could jump into sparring class right away. However in technique time they had to work out with the beginners and earn their American Kenpo rank.

On the other hand, I've worn the white belt at several alternative schools over the years, and it often makes sense.

What policy do you recommend for American Kenpoists?
We have a simple policy. Everybody starts as a beginner. Although some have balked, after a session they realize that is what they need to do if they intend to stay. It terms of what they wear around their waist, it doesn't matter. If I didn't give it, I can't take it away. Everyone must decide for themselves if they deserve to wear what they have and if they fit in with what's going on around them. It has no impact on what they will learn and when they will learn it.

I also have everyone who walks in "Start Over", because it is about Principles, Concepts, Theories of Motion ... as well as specific knowledge of anatomy, physiology, techniques, forms, sets, etc.

HOWEVER, I do not require them to take off their belt, the way I was required to do when I started in Kenpo. After a decade of other Martial Arts, boy, was that hard to do ... but worth it. I am a little more liberal, in that the advanced student can wear the belt that they walk in the door with, but they have to put the appropriate "tip" on it, a yellow tab, or orange, purple, etc. Oddly enough, (Doc maybe you can speak to this), the darker belts come off within a few months or so. They, every one of them so far, has opted to wear the belt I present them with following their tests. Some of these guys were from Traco or Tracy Kenpo Systems, others from Kung-Fu or Taekwondo.

My lattitude has resulted in the same humbling experience that schools who require the advanced student to put aside the belt earned in another Art. I understand if you use an educational model, that you have new material, but as was said somewhere else, a kick is a kick and a punch is a punch, I can work on modifying or Tailoring to a more KENPO type of pattern of movement.

Just the way I want to do it! Not better or worse than anyone else. But if you get an Associates Degree in another college, don't some of the hours transfer over? They do in my school, and that is how I like to approach it. I also do not preclude learning something new from my students, and it is good giving my other students exposure to other Arts, so I might have them run basics or shadow box, or whatever kind of drills they bring with them ... alas, they lose lots of them after a half year with me, even when I encourage them to keep the old and just add my "stuff" to their repetoire.

Oss

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Of course, but then you have to explain to people the stripes then they may look at you like they look at that Steve Spry character.:rofl: Darn:disgust:

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Then everybody would then think you joined some association from California that promotes similar to that!

:rofl:
Wouldn't want that......

After training 10 years in the korean arts I started in Kenpo as a white belt. Now in my 40's and 11 years in Kenpo (Tracy/EPAK blend) I have moved and have visited various kenpo schools. I do admit that I feel more comfortable removing my stripes and just wearing a plain black belt. I have not been asked to wear a white belt. I do understand that I will be starting to learn from the beginning.

Of course, but then you have to explain to people the stripes then they may look at you like they look at that Steve Spry character.:rofl:one of my friends told me that Steve Spry is a founder of his own art now. In fact, he was recognized for his *foundership* by martial art board sometimes this year. I went to this kenpo forum and found this. I guess I will post it here so that his former students / friends can share their stories about Steve Spry.

http://www.kenpothoughts.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49

GM Steve Spry's web site is www.stevespry.com (http://www.stevespry.com)

Oh No, i'm not his student or associate with him in any way or form.

I took a look at his site through the link you posted. It is very misleading at least it is to me. He starts by talking about AK then somehow it switches to say his curriculum is hawaiian kenpo with a bunch of other stuff in mixed in it. The reverse belt thing just has to go! I looked at his black belt family tree and noticed a few names on there I recognized. He may be a good guy, knowledgeable, and good competitor but I can't say as I don't know the man. All I will say is somethin' just ain't right.
:asian:

I have studied in different schools a few times. I go in and sign up and I try to change the topic when I feel its coming to my rank if I can. I usually get about two classes before I am cornered. I tell them my rank and I have had some of the the instructors tell to wear my BB, they say you've earned it. I tell them that I am uncomfortable doing that and would like it if I could wear a white belt. I usually get the response of "thats OK, if you want to wear it you can" and its dropped. I have come across instructors stressing to me that they want me to wear my belt. I have found that these are the instructors with few or none BB in house. I pack up and find a new school, I don't like being a selling tool.

I took a look at his site through the link you posted. It is very misleading at least it is to me. He starts by talking about AK then somehow it switches to say his curriculum is hawaiian kenpo with a bunch of other stuff in mixed in it. The reverse belt thing just has to go! I looked at his black belt family tree and noticed a few names on there I recognized. He may be a good guy, knowledgeable, and good competitor but I can't say as I don't know the man. All I will say is somethin' just ain't right.
:asian:i agree with you on this. I find it very confusing. In the end, i honestly don't know what he's teaching. Perhaps, he doesn't want people to know he's teaching AK.???? I hope I'm wrong on this.

*he* is also the one who invited Grandmaster Kuoha (Prof Chow Karaho's successor) to his Hall of Fame this year and gave Grandmaster Kuoha's students and daughter "Hall of Fame" 2004 award for their contribution in MA.

You can find this information in his "Master hall of fame" link.

I will quote your quote again "He may be a good guy, knowledgeable, and good competitor.but I can't say as I don't know the man ". I will leave it that way with no further comment.

He can do what he likes. It makes no difference to me. Being here in Ohio is hard enough to get "any" of the 1st generation students of Mr. Parker for seminar's and whatnot. On this one I'm glad that I'm far enough away from the west coast not to feel the backlash of certain individuals and self proclaimed this or that. What they do is their business and until if directly affects me I don't care. :)

I started TKD just after I left kenpo with a junior black belt rank (I was 18, had the junior BB for 2 years, just hadn't done the senior test yet) and I never wore my black belt outside of a kenpo class. I wouldn't have felt right walking into a TKD class wearing the rank of another style.

I've never met a student who got through the screening process who had the guts to wear a black from another style in our schools.