How bad does not sparring effect you in a real street fight situation ?

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[exile]

What kind of sparring are you talking about?

Are you talking about sport style sparring, kumite, where the fighting ranges have nothing to do with where street conflicts actually begin? If you train hard-simulation street attack scenarios, then I suspect not doing that kind sparring won't hurt you at all.

But since you apparently prefer exploring the pirate smiley menu to actually making your intentions clear in posing the question, it's very difficult to know just what you're getting at.

[suicide]

for instance a guy that just trains techniques and katas and really keeps his health and fitness up - but doesnt spar , kumite , etc etc etc maybe in his mind he spars but thats about it :flame:

[searcher]

Not sparring hard will not prepare you for getting hit. I know, you think you won't get hit. Thats a nice thought, but it is not a reality. If you want to be prepared for the street, you need to have some hard sparring against a variety of opponents. I don't let my students spar with people of similar heighth or weight very often. I want them to experience a bunch of different body types and skill levels. And to make it as realistic as possible, we allow almost all techniques when they spar. You will fight like to train.

IMO, fitness and kata are important, just like SD techniques and basics, but you need to spar. And not tippy-tappy point style.

[Sukerkin]

To my aging mind, this type of question is symptomatic of the schizophrenic society we seem to live in today, where physical violence is something that young people often see in media but very rarely are allowed to experience (at a non-lethal level).

When I was young {and no it's not all that long ago :lol:}, people did not need sparring in their martial arts training to know what taking and giving a 'hit' in the real world felt like. We got an awful lot of that from schoolyard fights and the punishments that usually devolved from same :eek:.

It would appear that our youth are now so wrapped up in cotton wool that the only violence they encounter in daily life is shooting each other; not a lot of help in unarmed martial arts :(.

Sparring in any empty-hand art is a quick way of getting students to appreciate timing and distance so that their 'solo' training visualisation has something to found itself upon. Other than that it's just plain fun - or at least it was for me in my empty-hand days.

[dnovice]

for instance a guy that just trains techniques and katas and really keeps his health and fitness up - but doesnt spar , kumite , etc etc etc maybe in his mind he spars but thats about it :flame:


He might do fine. However, what is likely to happen is he will freeze up or not be be able to take hits since he's not conditioned for it.

[seasoned]

I am a very plain and simple kind of guy. You throw something at me and I block, and hit back. Sparring has some value, and I have done it for the better part of 40 years. But, please don’t tell me I have to spare to prepare for street battle. I would take any pro football player that is retired, and put him up against a high school jock and he will shine. I don’t have to get hit to see what it feels like, or if I can take it. I have been hit, and don’t need to reinforce it over and over again. If you are a newbie, than take your lumps, and survive the best you can, and after many years, work your strikes, do your drills with a partner for timing, and stay in shape. That is it, plain and simple.

[Aniela13]

I've never been in a street fight, so my comments are coming from that perspective...I do, however, know that I put great value in my time spent sparring. When I'm doing my techniques/katas/drills, my mind works differently than it does when I'm sparring an instructor or fellow student. During techniques/etc, my mind is focused on practicing and making sure I'm doing things correctly. During sparring, I'm focused on not getting hit, and putting forth my best effort to "win" the match (we do free sparring, so there are no points, but most matches end with us knowing who would have won in a real fight!)

~Ani

[seasoned]

I've never been in a street fight, so my comments are coming from that perspective...I do, however, know that I put great value in my time spent sparring. When I'm doing my techniques/katas/drills, my mind works differently than it does when I'm sparring an instructor or fellow student. During techniques/etc, my mind is focused on practicing and making sure I'm doing things correctly. During sparring, I'm focused on not getting hit, and putting forth my best effort to "win" the match (we do free sparring, so there are no points, but most matches end with us knowing who would have won in a real fight!)

~Ani

Sounds like a winner, this type of training will more then prepare you for a confrontation.

[rhn_kenpo]

No question that for me, practice in freestyle sparring would come in handy if I ever found myself in a 'real street fight'.

When we train techniques under real world conditions, i.e., no awareness of which attack is coming, things get a bit messy. I do my best to react quickly and respond, but my form is always less than ideal and I improvise a lot.

A bigger question for me is which is more valuable, SD techniques practiced under real world conditions, or sparring to be ready for a 'real street fight'. By far the SD training. I'm not looking to fight anyone and the odds of me squaring off against an opponent are very very low unless I know that is the only way to escape safely. Much more likely that if I'm challenged, I'll just walk/run away. But if I'm attacked, that is another story and there will be a response.

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

I think Exile was right on when he asked what type of sparring you are refering to. Let's take this apart a bit, shall we?

Sparring can be a great benefit, or a great hindrance. On the benefit side, you get used to the pace, speed, aggression, distance, and timing af a real person in front of you trying to hit/kick/throw/choke/arm-bar you (or hit with a weapon even, eg kendo, naginatado, arnis/kali, AMOK knife skills etc). You get a feel for the way you need to respond to an opponent, and can improve your speed, reflexes, and ability to "read" an opponents body and predict what they may come in with.

But there is a downside which can actually harm your ability to defend yourself. Sparring is a controlled way to experience a free-form of training, often with particular rules and restrictions. These rules and restrictions can develop into very dangerous habits which can leave you in (unsuspectingly) open to previously unconsidered attacks.

For example, I know of a particular karate system which has as part of it's rules the requirement of the combatants to "allow" their opponent the chance to answer any strike they throw, rather than get in, hit, and get out. As I'm sure you can understand, if you develop the habit of "I hit you, you hit me", eventually, you will find someone who hits harder than you. This same system also teaches the habit that if you get knocked down, the opponent will let you get up. That doesn't really happen too often in real violent encounters.

You also have the idea of non- or light-contact sparring. To highlight this issue, and to counter those who will say "yes, but if it's real, I won't worry about the rules....", under stress, you will respond the way you have trained, and the way you believe (unconsciously) generates the most success. If you train for non-contact tournaments, and engage in non-contact tournaments, and experience success in such tournaments (even if you don't win the trophy), that will create a belief that it is powerful. Then, when you need it, you will do exactly as you have trained, and react in a non-contact manner. One of the wierdest things I have seen in the Martial Arts is a non-contact karate tournament (in France, if memory serves), in which a number of the participating groups had some bad blood between them. The tension erupted into a nearly 10 minute long brawl, in which there were almost no injuries at all. All the non-contact tournament fighters, very fast and accurate in their techniques, also trained ot pull their strikes. So, under pressure, they were very fast and accurate, and pulled their strikes. Try that when someone is attacking, and see how long it stops them.

That said, sparring in systems such as boxing, kick-boxing, muay thai, and others, can certainly help get you prepared for two of the most uncomfortable experiences for a martial artist: getting hit, and being able to give a hit. For that reason, if I am asked to recommend something to someone in order to get prepared to defend themselves in a hurry, I will often recommend boxing over pretty much anything else.

The last thing to remember in regard to sparring is that in sparring, you have no clear-cut attacker and defender, instead you have two aggressive opponents both trying to attack each other at the same time. You also have only one opponent, who is in front of you, and who will attack with recognizable, familiar techniques, rhythms, and combinations. There are constraints (referees, strikes with no grappling, grappling with no kicks, all-in unarmed [MMA] with no weapons etc). This is completely different to a real attack, where there is a clear attacker and defender, there may be more than one, they may attack from any side or direction, they may attack with anything from any range, they may or may not have a weapon, and there is no referee to stop anything. In fact those watching may be the opponents friends, watching to see if you are gaining the upper hand, and may join in if you do. Very different from sparring in most ways.

There are some training methods that cover this ground, though. Go along to most Krav Maga schools, and a lot of RBSD seminars, and you will see it. Check out Geoff Thompsons DVDs, especially Animal Day. But really, it is just another expression of traditional martial art free-expression training, randori as seen in arts like Aikido, Classical Jujutsu, and Ninjutsu schools around the world (note, not randori as understood by Judoka, nor rolling as understood by BJJ practitioners, which is essentially the same thing).

So how much does it help, and how much does it hinder? It does both, and it is up to the schools, art, instructor, and student as to whether you want it as part of your training.

[jks9199]

Sparring is ONE method of practicing the learned techniques against an opponent. It's not the only -- and it's not the most realistic or essential. There are inherent flaws in any training method, or we'd run out of training partners real fast. Sparring can build a "duel" mentality which can serve you poorly in the real deal. But sparring does teach you to hit & get hit, to keep going when someone's coming at you, and is a way to develop the senses of rhythm and timing, and to develop a feel for some of the unpredictability of the opponent's movement.

Remember, also, that there are different ways to spar. Free sparring, where you and your partner face off and move back and forth whatever the level of force, is only one. One-steps are another form of sparring, when done properly. They're a way to focus on the principle of a movement or reaction, with control. Done with the proper focus and intensity, one-steps and similar movements or two person kata practice is another form of sparring practice. All of them play a role -- and you should do all of them.

[Grendel308]

I am a very plain and simple kind of guy. You throw something at me and I block, and hit back. Sparring has some value, and I have done it for the better part of 40 years. But, please don’t tell me I have to spare to prepare for street battle. I would take any pro football player that is retired, and put him up against a high school jock and he will shine. I don’t have to get hit to see what it feels like, or if I can take it. I have been hit, and don’t need to reinforce it over and over again. If you are a newbie, than take your lumps, and survive the best you can, and after many years, work your strikes, do your drills with a partner for timing, and stay in shape. That is it, plain and simple.



Well said. I could never quite come up with the right way to convey just that info. Somehow it came across as fear, and that needed to be "knocked" out of me. Perhaps because I am a woman?
Because of how and where I grew up I can still tell the difference between sparing and fighting. In sparing I am Not trying to do lasting damage.
lori

[kidswarrior]

Because of how and where I grew up I can still tell the difference between sparing and fighting. In sparing I am Not trying to do lasting damage.
loriThis, too, is well said. The little club where I train seems to attract people with quite a bit of real-world experience. Dueling-type sparring would actually be a step back for most, since it would reinforce an inherent safety which is not present in those real SD situations.

That doesn't mean the guys 'n gals don't go hard. To paraphrase one of our MA icons, Class doesn't start till the bruises begin to form. :D

[terryl965]

Sparring allows you to see your reaction time and also gets you prepare to take a hit. Not sparring is fine but alot of people will wait until they get hit before they feel the need to defend, this is wrong a threat is when you feel damage and know how to avoid it.

[Bruno@MT]

I understand both sides of the argument. I have been hit full contact before, during light sparring. 't was an accident. Sensei hit at exactly the same moment I stepped in to do the same. Lights nearly went out.

In those years I got hit / kicked hard by accident. I know what it feels like.
Full contact sparring would perhaps insensitize me some more, just like boxers are able to take more and stay upright.

But the downside to full contact blows to the head is that they cause brain damage. Even at amateur levels, this has been measured. Apparently this can be measured by various markers in the blood / bone marrow.
So it's not like the ability to take headshots doesn't come at a price.

I don't underestimate the usefullness of full contact sparring. And I don't mind it for wrestling and grapling. But I am not going to let myself beat in the head full contact.

[Haze]

You need to fight to see what fighting is really all about. It is not sparring, it is not controled kumite in the dojo. I'm not saying to go out and get in a fight but your training needs to address the realities of an attack. You need to experience what I refer to as "Controled Chaos". As close to the real deal with out full violent intent. All ranges need to be explored. Stand up to clinch to ground and everything in between

[searcher]

So let me ask this. If you don't think you need to spar to better prepare for a street altercation, then what do you all think you need to do?

I guess that I should get out the Wii and use it for my preparation for potential street fights. I will just throw in some training on basics and then I am prepared.

[jks9199]

So let me ask this. If you don't think you need to spar to better prepare for a street altercation, then what do you all think you need to do?

I guess that I should get out the Wii and use it for my preparation for potential street fights. I will just throw in some training on basics and then I am prepared.
That's not what anyone's suggesting, I don't think.

Sparring can be an important tool in preparing for self defense, but it's not the ONLY tool.

One/two/three steps or two person kata practice are easy examples of other tools that can be used to develop functional skills, with the proper methods of training and emphasis. Lots of people don't have that emphasis; they simply take turns "doing the technique" and never face real resistance or unexpected timing. They stay at the first stage of this sort of training, where the attack is all but static, and the "attacker" simply permits the defender to do their thing. Too often, the attackers are never even really in range or give lackadaisical grabs/holds that take no resistance to escape. Instead -- after the basic technique is understood, the attacker needs to vary the pace, actually be in range and actually put the defender in danger of being hit. Finally, the attack itself should be varied, so that the defense can be tried against a range of attacks. For example, if the initial technique is a defense against a lunge punch... it should be tried against the opposite hand, against a punch from the same side as the step (more like a jab), kicks, and anything else you can think of. Some things won't work; some will. Try it in training so that you are prepared for things that aren't quite the same.

[blindsage]

You can talk all you want about sparring not being the same as a 'street fight', but those who spar defend themselves better on the street than those who don't, period. Now, if you want to throw in some uncontrolled 'street' defense scenarios to round out your practice as well, that's ideal, but if you aren't sparring or haven't sparred, you are missing out on skill refinement that you don't get any other way. There's a reason boxers do well for themselves on the street.

[K-man]

About 25 years ago we had a big issue with sports insurance. Karate had to change to limited contact to enable any form of indemnity insurance. Boxing, kickboxing and other such full contact styles had to pay excessive premiums. As such we had to limit our full on sparring to a much more controlled form of softer sparring. As you become more proficient the sparring does tend to become harder and faster and many strikes do hit the body at close to full force. Although we don't strike hard to the unprotected head, the occassional unexpected contact does occur. We tend to think of such blows as 'conditioning'. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif
Other training we do is based on what I have seen with systema training. That is to work with a partner, punching to the body and gradually increasing the power of the strikes depending on the partner's ability to absorb the strike. This training also involves controlling the breathing and relaxing. What in means in the long term is the fear of being hit hard diminishes and the likelihood of remaining in control after being attacked is increased.
I suppose what I am saying is, you may not need to spar as long as you undertake some other form of conditioning but you will still be at a disadvantage unless there is some training to help you to recognise and take advantage of any openings in your attacker's defence. :asian:

[chinto]

I guess my question is .. are you talking about a real street attack? or some kind of stupidity that is prearranged in the street?
real self defense situations are over in seconds. the winner is alive and the looser may or may not be. the main thing is that it is over in seconds and usually some one is badly injured or even dead in that less then 15 seconds it took. ( often less then 10 seconds.)

That said, sparring and yakosoku kumite are good for timing and distance and such, but kata really does teach you most all you need to know.

Free style sparring is a technique and practice that is less then 120 years old as I understand it. I can Guarantee that men and women trained in kata and prevailed in situations where to loose was to die before free sparring came to be!

[Chris Parker]

You can talk all you want about sparring not being the same as a 'street fight', but those who spar defend themselves better on the street than those who don't, period. Now, if you want to throw in some uncontrolled 'street' defense scenarios to round out your practice as well, that's ideal, but if you aren't sparring or haven't sparred, you are missing out on skill refinement that you don't get any other way. There's a reason boxers do well for themselves on the street.

I've said this already, but it seems to bear repeating.

Sparring has as many issues for real self defence skill development as it has benefits. We, for instance, don't "spar" in the sense that you are infering here, but we are very focused on getting our students prepared for any potential street confrontation. We do this by incorporating adrenaline response training, constant drilling of principles and techniques under pressure and against resistance, and always staying up-to-date with modern assaults.

We also utilise a traditional Japanese style free-form style of training. In this form, there is a nominated defender, and one or more nominated attackers, who can come in with definite, pre-arranged attacks from pre-arranged directions, all the way through to unnominated, random attacks from any direction at any time, with any style of attack (up to and including weapons). The defender responds with unnominated responses to the attack, from slow all the way through to full speed.

The idea of this type of training is that you have the opportunity to experience your art against a variety of attacks, with the addition of adrenaline (in most cases), and this is the traditional form of sparring. It gives many of the same benefits as the more typical sparring, with the added benefits of being far closer related to a real encounter. But, as with all things, it is how you train it that really matters.

[sgtmac_46]

Not sparring hard will not prepare you for getting hit. I know, you think you won't get hit. Thats a nice thought, but it is not a reality. If you want to be prepared for the street, you need to have some hard sparring against a variety of opponents. I don't let my students spar with people of similar heighth or weight very often. I want them to experience a bunch of different body types and skill levels. And to make it as realistic as possible, we allow almost all techniques when they spar. You will fight like to train.

IMO, fitness and kata are important, just like SD techniques and basics, but you need to spar. And not tippy-tappy point style.


'Everybody has a plan....until they get punched in the face!' -Mike Tyson

[sgtmac_46]

You can talk all you want about sparring not being the same as a 'street fight', but those who spar defend themselves better on the street than those who don't, period. Now, if you want to throw in some uncontrolled 'street' defense scenarios to round out your practice as well, that's ideal, but if you aren't sparring or haven't sparred, you are missing out on skill refinement that you don't get any other way. There's a reason boxers do well for themselves on the street. Yes there is........because they can take a punch and they can throw a punch, because they practice taking and throwing them all the time against someone who is really trying to hurt them back.

Most folks in the street don't actually get knocked out by an opponent, but they get dazed enough and put in an alien situation to the point where they become unable to react. Getting punched in the nose/head/jaw for the first time is disorienting, it's a sensation that if all you've ever done is imagine it, there isn't an imaging it.......the bizarre smell sensation of your nose being punched to the point of bleeding, the odd way that you can actually 'smell' being punched in the head.......the throbbing numbness of being punched in the face, the feeling of blood running out of your nose.

Those are things that can overwhelm people experiencing them for the first time.........overwhelm to the point of distraction.

[chav buster]

theres 2 sides to my answer the first is dancing around probing for openings has very little to no actuel use in a street attack. there are 3 main types of attack 1, the interview type were theres a bit of banter and argy bargy, this is the most common and happens from talking range sparring largely want help. you can do full force drills from this range but thats nothing like sparring more like a few strikes and some grappling. pre emptive striking, awerness is what will help here. the second most common type of attack is the ambush, awerness again is your main weapon and again sparring want help you here. you can have someone randomly attack students at any time during class but thats nothing like sparring. the 3rd type of attack is the match fight whihc 99% of ma solely deal with and sparring will help here but you never have to actuelly get into this type of fight as you can and should just decline the offer to come and have a strieghner.

after saying all that the 1 thing that is good about sparring is it will get you used to taking a punch as if you dont do anything were your taking a punch it will freak you out if you ever do get into a fight.

if you want to learn use your skills properly then use them properly, how much time do you spend practicing getting out of front chokes, bear hugs headlocks ect? and then you sparr which has no coralation to the techniques you have learned? if you want to learn how to use your skills then get a neck brace gum shield groin guard and full face head gear and practice your ecapes multiple oponents ambush fighting from talking range full force and then tell me its anything like sparring!

[sgtmac_46]

That said, sparring and yakosoku kumite are good for timing and distance and such, but kata really does teach you most all you need to know.

Well, here's the issue I have.......if I took two groups of similar people, and taught one for six months boxing techniques using a kata-esque method of teaching, I basically taught them the motions and movements of boxing, but no sparring.

And I taught the other group using the methods of boxing instruction commonly taught, which includes extensive boxing.

At the end of six months my boxers who sparred would outfight the non-sparrers........ring, street, it wouldn't matter.......all other things being equal, those who sparred would beat those who didn't.

Now, the Non-Sparrers would likely defeat a third similar group who didn't do any kind of training.......which supports the thinking that you only need to be as prepared as you need to be prepared to be. Sparring isn't for everyone.


As i've long maintained........learning to fight without getting hit, is like learning to play football.....without getting hit!




Free style sparring is a technique and practice that is less then 120 years old as I understand it. I can Guarantee that men and women trained in kata and prevailed in situations where to loose was to die before free sparring came to be! Free sparring might be less than 120 years in the TAMA's standards........but it's been apart of the western tradition for thousands of years.

[MJS]

for instance a guy that just trains techniques and katas and really keeps his health and fitness up - but doesnt spar , kumite , etc etc etc maybe in his mind he spars but thats about it :flame:

I would say that how you spar is what really matters. Nothing wrong with point sparring, but people condition themselves to stop after they score a hit, or they're used to nothing except light to med contact, just doing body shots, etc. may effect what you fall back on.

I gear my sparring to be more continuous. I throw more boxing type punches vs. the quick backfist. My footwork is different. Depending on what the training is for that day, clinch work, low line kicks, knees, elbows, and ground work will all be added in. The contact is hard.

For me, this suits my needs of what I want to get out of sparring.

[blindsage]

theres 2 sides to my answer the first is dancing around probing for openings has very little to no actuel use in a street attack. there are 3 main types of attack 1, the interview type were theres a bit of banter and argy bargy, this is the most common and happens from talking range sparring largely want help. you can do full force drills from this range but thats nothing like sparring more like a few strikes and some grappling. pre emptive striking, awerness is what will help here. the second most common type of attack is the ambush, awerness again is your main weapon and again sparring want help you here. you can have someone randomly attack students at any time during class but thats nothing like sparring. the 3rd type of attack is the match fight whihc 99% of ma solely deal with and sparring will help here but you never have to actuelly get into this type of fight as you can and should just decline the offer to come and have a strieghner.

after saying all that the 1 thing that is good about sparring is it will get you used to taking a punch as if you dont do anything were your taking a punch it will freak you out if you ever do get into a fight.

if you want to learn use your skills properly then use them properly, how much time do you spend practicing getting out of front chokes, bear hugs headlocks ect? and then you sparr which has no coralation to the techniques you have learned? if you want to learn how to use your skills then get a neck brace gum shield groin guard and full face head gear and practice your ecapes multiple oponents ambush fighting from talking range full force and then tell me its anything like sparring!

If some form of grappling (standing and/or ground work) is included in your sparring, then plenty. There is also a possible miscommunication here. I'm all for situational defense scenarios for training as well, but in many schools they call it realistic but that's about where the realism ends. For instance in many so-called SD demos and classes the application of technique is taught, but the resistance level of the opponent ends at the application of the technique with way to much opponent compliance. But if you have a serious scenario, with a fully resistent opponent or opponents then that's great, I agree this is a great skill builder.

But again, I also say if you're not doing sparring you are missing out on important skills. Not just learning how to hit or get hit, but timing, learning how to read an opponent, speed, and control. If you talk about sparring in just a strictly one on one fight context, superficially you are correct, but in actuality the skills you learn do translate to street reality, and those who spar generally do better on the street than those who don't.


Free style sparring is a technique and practice that is less then 120 years old as I understand it. I can Guarantee that men and women trained in kata and prevailed in situations where to loose was to die before free sparring came to be!

Really? Nobody every practiced actual fighting before 120 years ago? They just used kata and that was it, and they were deadly? You can Guarantee that? I'd love to see your research that shows this was the case. :cool:

[Zero]

Free style sparring is a technique and practice that is less then 120 years old as I understand it. I can Guarantee that men and women trained in kata and prevailed in situations where to loose was to die before free sparring came to be!

Personally I think it is a mistake to condition and train for SD situations as if they will always only be over in seconds/split seconds and that there is no possibility of you ending up in an altercation or even being "jumped" by an aggressor on the street who is actually also a good fighter (be it from street/school of hard knocks or dojo trained to a high level). There may be a time when you are attacked, you do your SD move only to have the aggressor disengage, square off and come back for more.

Without your sparring and hopefully some competition/full contact fights on top of your SD application training, I think you are only half way there. And that's fine if half way keeps you alive. But what happens when you find yourself confronted by a fighter who can evade your wrist lock, eye gouge, back of the knee stomp and is reigning some jheavy blows on you at the same time? You loose, game over.

I just don't see kata alone getting you home.

Those who have commented on the advantage that conditioning from sparring and fights (both of body and mind) brings are correct. I have had friends attacked on the street and who have been hit, only to freeze up in shock - not even hit by a debilitaing strike. One of them had done martial arts for a couple of years also - so the concept of hitting and being hit was at least not new to him! On being punched in the face, he froze while his friend then got a real beating. It's only after you have had a broken rib, black eye, smashed nose or torn lip that you realise a lot of surface damage and even some internal damage is to some degree superficial and that you can actually go on. If you have the right mind set you can fight pretty much 'til you're dead. Again, I don't see kata getting you to this place.

[Twin Fist]

real simple, as I am a simple man.

if you aint used to getting hit, it's gonna be ugly when you do get hit.

and you WILL get hit on the street.

[Gordon Nore]

I think it depends on the authenticity of the sparring. If all sparring is point sparring with combatants automatically pausing when the instructor calls a point or calls stop, then I think the effectiveness of the sparring is limited beyond the student learning some combinations. One of the problems with light-contact point sparring is that fighters can develop a bad habit of anticipating a judge's call. For self-defense purposes,
there also has to be heavier-contact, free-style sparring in order for people to get used to getting hit and to keep on hitting.

I've recently started Systema. We were doing some sparring the other day at a very slow, relaxed pace. It was interesting to take the time to spot openings that didn't reveal themselves to me previously. At the same time, though, while we were moving at a relaxed pace, we were hitting with some force -- more than is necessary in point sparring. I think varied levels of combat and aggression are helpful in self-defence.

[shihansmurf]

Training to fight by perofrming kata without sparring is like learning to play guitar by jamming on Guitar Hero. You might be good at punching buttons but you can't actually play a song.

If you want to be a good fighter you have to fight. We improve that skills we practice. Its the point of practice, after all. If we train Kata then we get good at doing kata. If we traing fighting, then we improve our ability to fight. Getting good at kata is fine, but it isn't the same as being good at fighting. On a similar note, punching the air is great fun but it won't make you better at hitting an object.

Its important to understand one's goals in training. If you are training to develope fighting ability then you have to train as a fighter. If you are training for some other reason, then you have to train accordingly. Taking a short cut like not sparring will leave you without the ability to engage a resisting oppponent.


Mark

[Himura Kenshin]

The truth of the matter is that you will do as you train yourself to do. I realize that in some martial arts solo kata practice is the essence of the art. The secrets are in the kata and it is up to the warrior to discover what they are himself. I do think that without training with other people who put up resistance there is really no way to see if your techniques will work out the way you think they are going to work.

I asked my teacher's teacher during a personal interview of him "Does a martial artists have to obtain actual experience in a real life fight to know that he is skilled enough to protect himself?"

he responded, "To know? Yes. Without actual combat experience all we can really do is form a good guess. That is why we must train as realistically as possible."

[seasoned]

I will try to explain this, as best as I can. When I was a white belt, to be very honest, it was understood that we were the sparring dummies. Sound harsh, well it was very harsh. Mind you we didn’t start sparring right away, that was held off until we had a good grasp on basic blocks, punches, and kicks. But we all knew, that by the time you made it to purple belt, that you better have your act together. White belt sparring was 3 times a week with instructional matches, with colored belts. 2 nights a week, it was by invitation only, not mandatory, but expected if you wanted to advance. These 2 nights, were hard core, and if you were there, it was because you wanted to be, as long as you were invited. Once there, you were there for the whole class, with no exceptions. Nothing instructional that night, just survival, no coddling, if you got hit it was because you didn’t block it. The hitter never got blamed for contact, unless it was malicious, in which case, everyone came down on you, even Sensei. I’ll tell you this, from the time you bowed in, until the time you bowed out, it was war. If you got hurt, you didn’t show it, and if you could walk, you could spar. We did round robin style, where there was two lines facing off, and we would rotate to the left or right so we would end up sparring everyone there many times. The survivors of this training over years became warriors. Our dojo in those days was “old” CNY Karate. We did many tournaments from Binghamton, NY to Buffalo, NY, and were well known. The best thing that came out of all this is even though we kicked the hell out of each other, we were always friends afterwards. To this day most of the DoJo in Syracuse NY are made up of these old time warriors. These days, there is more sparring gear worn, but man do we have fun talking about the “good old days” . J

[Sukerkin]

Sparring is useful for getting you used to making do with imperfect technique due to circumstance and, as I said before, is a shortcut for students to 'get' the concept of distance and timing.

I don't think that anyone, in any of the many {many :sigh:} threads we've had along these lines has said that sparring is useless. It does, however, have downsides and "trains in" bad habits becase it can never be close to real. The limitations required to make it 'safe' are what make it a poor way to train technique.

Given the choice between only kata or only sparring then I'd take kata but both is better as long as the emphasis is on the former.

Now clearly others are going to disagree. All I can say is that I had more than a decade of experience with 'empty hand' and found hard sparring useful but not as useful as kata training. I now have my third dan in my sword art and have not missed sparring as a training method at all - kata is fine for me thanks :D.

[Chris Parker]

There have been a few comments about the old systems only utilising kata and no sparring, and that working well enough for them. Rather predictibly, a number of members have called this type of comment out, and asked for evidence (I think the timeline of "only the last 120 years or so" for sparring was used). Personnally, I feel that there may be a little confusion over exactly what is meant by "sparring" and "kata" in this sense.

The way I have read the OPs concept (pirate smiley and all...), is in reference to the modern training tool as used in karate dojo, tae kwon do dojang etc., primarily point based, bouncing back and forth, two individuals trying to "tag" each other. Some organisations do teach this as a full-contact version, but the rest is the same, with the same habits, benefits, and dangerous tendancies as previously mentioned. This form of training is, in the main, a modern occurance, however, it came out of duelling training, where rules would be enforced, and strict parameters would be in effect.

Most people here, it seems, are from this type of background, training in these modern systems, with modern training methods allowed by modern protective equipment. There doesn't seem to be too many of the more "old school" systems, although those that are, you may notice, are not advocating the necessity of sparring as it is understood. This is because it is rarely used in these older schools. But those that train the newer systems are familiar with the term "kata", as it forms a part of their classes as well. And if we take kata as the form found in karate arts (and related methods, such as Tae Kwon Do's hyung), then I completely agree. It is not enough to truly prepare for violent encounter, as it is designed to instill the fundamental tactics and strategies of the particular art.

But kata is not always what has previously been described. In classical (Japanese) arts, martial and otherwise, kata is the primary form of training/teaching. In martial arts, it is often a paired exercise, and involves an attacker and a defender. The two practitioners then go through a pre-arranged sequence of movements, which could be as simple as: Attacker punches; Defender evades and blocks, then counter strikes, and applies a throw and pin. It could also be much more complex, as in the (much!) longer sword kata of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, which may be made up of around 20 or so exchanges as described above, with the idea of attacker and defender often switching.

This version of kata training is often performed (at high levels) at full speed and power, which gives you a very good sense of distance, timing, accuracy, control etc. In the weapon systems, real weapons could be used, which certainly brings the reality of the situation to the forefront (I heartily recommend you try going completely free-form sparring with real weapons, and see if you may want to try a different approach). This is often combined with the traditional form of free-response training as I have described in my previous posts, giving you the ability to work on your reflexes and other aspects.

The closest to the more modern sparring in classical systems is what is known as shiai, essentially a form of duelling competition. A number of old arts have this as part of their curriculuum, with the Owari Kan Ryu actually starting with shiai before kata. Other than that, many older schools (in Japan and China, at least) would often go out to challenge other arts/practitioners, and would have fights to determine the best (the Japanese term was Taryu Jiai). This practice was outlawed in the mid 20th Century, though.

So, sparring as we seem to be discussing it is a modern thing, however, it has it's roots in older training practices. And kata as it is commonly recognised today (a long solo routine) is not going to give a complete set of skills, however the older version of kata is quite different and much more applicable to the realities of combat. So everyone is right! Well done!

[Ninja_in_training]

Sparring helps, but does not prepare you to fight either. Countless hours of sparring will still not give you the exp of going 100%. Repitition of the techniques will be what helps you win a real fight, so when the real life fight comes, its instinct on how to react and you dont have time to let nerves get in the way. First fight is always the hardest.. gets easier after that !!!

[ap Oweyn]

I know this is an old thread (April of this year) and has been resurrected. But just in case the same question comes up again, I'll throw my two cents in: There have been some really well considered answers about training methods, types of sparring, mental rehearsal, etc. But the first question that leaps to my mind is "why would you set out not to do such a major component of martial arts training?"

Are you afraid of sparring? (And I'm asking this of everyone, not just the OP.) Why? What scares you? I ask this because it seems to me that overcoming that fear or trepidation is both an important personal goal and a useful exercise in coming to grips with the effect of adrenaline and intimidation.

The fact that it scares some people is fine. It's useful. Learn to work through it and you'll have put sparring to one of its most basic uses.

Try to skirt around it and you'll just have short changed yourself.


Stuart

[masterfinger]

At the risk of sounding repetative (and/or stupid), I went ahead and decided to post based only on the Title and didn't bother reading a single reply: Easy, it effects you 110%. You have to know 3 simple "effects of the individuals technique" that you can only gain through sparring;
1. Does my "Technique/ Fighting skill" work against a resisting opponent?
2. Can I "Take a shot or do I have a glass jaw?"
3. Who runs out of gas 1st, me or my opponent?

IMO, sparring helps to answers these questions so that your answers can be something like (in order of question)....
1. Some did and some didn't, so I will work towards fixing or dispose of what didn't work as well as solidifying what did work.
2. One major rule is to "Always protect yourself" / "Always keep your hands up" so your "glass jaw" if you do have one, isn't compromised. If you have a glass jaw, sparring will tell you soon enough.
3. Sparring equals cardivascular conditioning. In a street fight, whoever runs out of gas 1st, usually gets his ass handed to him. That is a simple fact.

Franco

[Bruno@MT]

But the first question that leaps to my mind is "why would you set out not to do such a major component of martial arts training?"


The reason is that unless both fighters have very good technique, a sparring session becomes about 'winning' and not about improving technique. Randori within Genbukan is only done at higher levels that have proven they have good technique.



Are you afraid of sparring? (And I'm asking this of everyone, not just the OP.) Why? What scares you? I ask this because it seems to me that overcoming that fear or trepidation is both an important personal goal and a useful exercise in coming to grips with the effect of adrenaline and intimidation.
The fact that it scares some people is fine. It's useful. Learn to work through it and you'll have put sparring to one of its most basic uses.
Try to skirt around it and you'll just have short changed yourself.
Stuart

I am not afraid of randori, but I flat out refuse to fight full contact.
I am a software developer / systems engineer. I need my brain. I am not going to let people pound me in the head for no good reason. I had a severe concussion once in my life, and that was enough. Accidents happen during partner drill and resistance training as well, and I accept that. I am just not going to invite it.

And if some people label that as fear: whatever. Being able to sit behind a computer screen 12 hours per day without a headache and providing an income is higher on my priorities list than being a tough full contact fighter.

[Chris Parker]

At the risk of repeating myself, I will endeavour to answer the questions posed in these later posts...

ap Oweyn (Stuart), you asked "But the first question that leaps to my mind is "why would you set out not to do such a major component of martial arts training?"

Are you afraid of sparring? (And I'm asking this of everyone, not just the OP.) Why? What scares you? I ask this because it seems to me that overcoming that fear or trepidation is both an important personal goal and a useful exercise in coming to grips with the effect of adrenaline and intimidation.

The fact that it scares some people is fine. It's useful. Learn to work through it and you'll have put sparring to one of its most basic uses.

Try to skirt around it and you'll just have short changed yourself."

Well, in Ninjutsu circles, sparring as understood in karate-style systems is not a part of the training. This does not mean we do not train against resisting opponents, nor that we are fearful of anything you are mentioning. It just means that we recognise that sparring as understood in those arts has some very inherrent weakness's that do not actually add to your ablity to survive, in fact they can take away from them. So I would here go back to one of my previous posts and show what we understand as "sparring", or resistance training; randori as Bruno mentioned.

Masterfinger (Franco), you stated: "At the risk of sounding repetative (and/or stupid), I went ahead and decided to post based only on the Title and didn't bother reading a single reply: Easy, it effects you 110%. You have to know 3 simple "effects of the individuals technique" that you can only gain through sparring;
1. Does my "Technique/ Fighting skill" work against a resisting opponent?
2. Can I "Take a shot or do I have a glass jaw?"
3. Who runs out of gas 1st, me or my opponent?

IMO, sparring helps to answers these questions so that your answers can be something like (in order of question)....
1. Some did and some didn't, so I will work towards fixing or dispose of what didn't work as well as solidifying what did work.
2. One major rule is to "Always protect yourself" / "Always keep your hands up" so your "glass jaw" if you do have one, isn't compromised. If you have a glass jaw, sparring will tell you soon enough.
3. Sparring equals cardivascular conditioning. In a street fight, whoever runs out of gas 1st, usually gets his ass handed to him. That is a simple fact."

Well, at the risk of sounding repetitive myself, I would ask that you do go back and read through some of the posts previously made, as these questions are covered. But in short,
1: A "sparring" match is against a similarly trained opponent (or at least trained in a similar style/method), and as such is no real indication of effectiveness of technique against anyone but someone trained in the same methodology as yourself, and usually under restrictive rules.
2:Well, this can be done in any number of ways. And it isn't covered at all in no-contact sparring, so while I thoroughly agree with you that it is a vital (and often under-emphasised) aspect of martial art training to be able to take a hit as well as deliver one, you cannot take sparring as the way to find out. There are just too many other methods which can be used as drills in a much more effective way, and there are too many variants on the concept of sparring that do not include contact for it to be particularly viable here.
3: As for who runs out of gas first, this is absolutely essential... for a competition. If you are training for survival, most fights last 3 to 10 seconds, so endurance isn't so much of an issue. However, the ability to handle the adrenaline dump and it's after-effects is vital.

So, in essence (once again), it depends entirely on why you are training, how you train in your system, and how you art your art define "sparring". And finally, if anyone feels that the traditional Japanese form of free-form training (randori) is less scary than the more competitive versions of sparring, I invite you to recognise that the traditional is far closer to a fight in that there is an attacker who is commited to attacking when the defender doesn't know hwo they are coming at them, and the defender is responding in ways the attacker doesn't know to prepare for. As in most fights, there is an attacker and a defender, as opposed to sparring in which there are 2 aggressors (which is not actually realistic at all).

[ap Oweyn]

The last two replies sound as though I was accusing people of being afraid of sparring. You missed my point. It wasn't a rhetorical question. If someone rejects sparring because they've got particular medical concerns, they've found tools that work better for them, or they haven't developed and/or found a sparring format that addresses their concerns, that's one thing. I was asking, genuinely, whether the original poster was afraid of the idea of sparring. IF they were, I was suggesting that confronting that fear was a benefit to him or her. I was NOT suggesting that everyone who rejects sparring is afraid of it. Dig?

[ap Oweyn]

The reason is that unless both fighters have very good technique, a sparring session becomes about 'winning' and not about improving technique. Randori within Genbukan is only done at higher levels that have proven they have good technique.
I don't believe that. Sparring is about whatever a teacher reinforces in his students. If he touts it as a tool to develop technique, that's how it will be viewed.

In fact, I think that idea is actually undermined by this policy of only having higher ranks spar. Because, by then, two things have happened: 1) the person has developed a reputation as a skilled proponent of his system; a reputation that stands to be tarnished in sparring (because, let's face it, everyone looks bad in sparring at one time or another) and 2) people develop a sense of technique based on more ideal circumstances; a sense that comes crumbling down once sparring is finally introduced.

To my mind, the sooner sparring is introduced, the better it serves as a learning tool. I believe a lot of the bad sparring I see stems from the mental hiccup people get when their technique doesn't look and feel the way it did in line practice, pad work, or kata. The earlier they get to grips with that sense of dissonance, the sooner they start to internalize a sense of how it will actually feel in its less-idealized state.

Also, by using sparring as a learning tool early on, you establish that sparring is the laboratory. Not the showcase. Less ego involved when everyone in the match understands that they're still in the process of developing the tools.


I am not afraid of randori, but I flat out refuse to fight full contact.
I am a software developer / systems engineer. I need my brain. I am not going to let people pound me in the head for no good reason. I had a severe concussion once in my life, and that was enough. Accidents happen during partner drill and resistance training as well, and I accept that. I am just not going to invite it.

Who said anything about full contact? I'm a former writer/editor, former counselor, and current stay-at-home dad. You don't think I need a brain?

First of all, people have the option of wearing headgear and gloves. I sparred in boxing and can still form a coherent sentence. I competed in full-contact stick sparring under the WEKAF format and can still walk a straight line.

But the OP never even mentioned full contact. They just said sparring. I personally was intimidated by sparring, even the comparatively light contact sparring we did in taekwondo. It was simply the feeling of being in direct physical conflict with someone else that bothered me. Level of contact was inconsequential. Being matched up against someone else was enough to make me very uncomfortable at that age.

Conflict often makes people uncomfortable, even without the threat of physical harm.


And if some people label that as fear: whatever. Being able to sit behind a computer screen 12 hours per day without a headache and providing an income is higher on my priorities list than being a tough full contact fighter.

I'm not a tough full-contact fighter. I spend my days changing diapers and steaming carrots. So there's no need to be defensive about this. As I said in my previous post, you've misunderstood my point here. Okay?

I don't think we're actually in nearly as much disagreement as you seem to think. Cool?


Stuart

[Chris Parker]

Yes, but this is a direct quote from your post...


There have been some really well considered answers about training methods, types of sparring, mental rehearsal, etc. But the first question that leaps to my mind is "why would you set out not to do such a major component of martial arts training?"

Are you afraid of sparring? (And I'm asking this of everyone, not just the OP.) Why? What scares you? I ask this because it seems to me that overcoming that fear or trepidation is both an important personal goal and a useful exercise in coming to grips with the effect of adrenaline and intimidation.

Try to skirt around it and you'll just have short changed yourself.

Now, to me, phrases such as "I'm asking this of everyone, not just the OP" does imply everyone who doesn't spar. Did we mis-read? You also have a direct link in thought process between "Why wouldn't you..." and "Are you afraid?". Whether deliberate or not, having one question follow directly from another creates a link between the two concepts, giving the impression that you feel that if you don't spar, then you are afraid. I'm sure you can understand how we came to that conclusion, yes?

I personally didn't see anything in your post which alluded any other reason for not sparring, other than fear. And we didn't treat it as rhetorical, you may notice. We answered.

That said, I do agree that if you are experiencing fear, confronting it is a very important, and powerful action. It is to be recommended to each and every person, in as many forms as possible, whether that is sparring, or diving out of a plane, or trying a new food for the first time! So if we did mis-read your statement, I for one apologise, but I was simply following the words you posted.

[ap Oweyn]

Now, to me, phrases such as "I'm asking this of everyone, not just the OP" does imply everyone who doesn't spar. Did we mis-read? You also have a direct link in thought process between "Why wouldn't you..." and "Are you afraid?". Whether deliberate or not, having one question follow directly from another creates a link between the two concepts, giving the impression that you feel that if you don't spar, then you are afraid. I'm sure you can understand how we came to that conclusion, yes?

Sure I can. But only if you assumed it was rhetorical. I suppose I could've taken the time to provide other possible reasons. But 1) it was late and 2) I thought that other reasons had already been thoughtfully and thoroughly covered by previous posters. A fact that I believe I acknowledged in my very first sentence.


I personally didn't see anything in your post which alluded any other reason for not sparring, other than fear. And we didn't treat it as rhetorical, you may notice. We answered.

As I say, I thought the other reasons had already been sufficiently covered. And people answer rhetorical questions all the time. The nature of the answers suggests a foregone conclusion on my part (which wasn't true).


That said, I do agree that if you are experiencing fear, confronting it is a very important, and powerful action. It is to be recommended to each and every person, in as many forms as possible, whether that is sparring, or diving out of a plane, or trying a new food for the first time! So if we did mis-read your statement, I for one apologise, but I was simply following the words you posted.

Hey, as a writer, I know that things can always be worded better. I'm used to posting on a different forum. Perhaps if you knew me better, as they do over there, it wouldn't have come off that way. I'll have to remember to start over from scratch here.

No need to apologize, in any event.


Stuart

[Chris Parker]

Cool. I can certainly understand posting late at night, and that affecting your posting... and, yes, you did reference other answers in your post, but then continued with "the first thing that comes to my mind", so I took that as your primary argument. Thanks for the clarification.

[ap Oweyn]

Cool. I can certainly understand posting late at night, and that affecting your posting... and, yes, you did reference other answers in your post, but then continued with "the first thing that comes to my mind", so I took that as your primary argument. Thanks for the clarification.
Next time, I'll include my standard (and exhaustive) list of disclaimers. Remember, you brought this on yourselves. :)

[Bruno@MT]

Ok let me put it differently: My current system does not contain sparring. I like it very much and I am going to stick with it for the foreseeable future. That is why I don't do randori. I like (love) groundfighting but as I mentioned it is not part of my training. I was explained the reason for not sparring, and to me they make sense. If you disagree, then we can agree to disagree.

If a system would demand full contact sparring, I would not do it for the reasons I already mentioned. You mention head gear and gloves. When I was doing modern JJ I sometimes sparred like that. When I accidentally stepped into my sensei's punch, my lights went out. I felt sick all day.
Even with gloves and gear, the statistics about headtrauma with boxers are shocking. Boxers still die from blunt force trauma. There is a thread running in the boxing forum right now about a death after a title fight. No matter how much protection you use, getting pound in the head -will- cause a level of brain damage.

[ap Oweyn]

Even with gloves and gear, the statistics about headtrauma with boxers are shocking. Boxers still die from blunt force trauma. There is a thread running in the boxing forum right now about a death after a title fight. No matter how much protection you use, getting pound in the head -will- cause a level of brain damage.

I don't train that way any longer. I want to use a level of contact that forces people to address the mental reaction to getting hit, without dealing with the physiological damage. Believe me, I don't want any life-altering sparring sessions either. My kids need me thinking straight.



Stuart

[BLACK LION]

you do what you train... you train what you do...

you are either trained or untrained...


You could have been punching a human drawing on a brick wall for 10 years and it can still translate into real life situation... most people who survive violence had the same thing in common... the unwaivering will to live so much that they forged thier own reality...

[sgtmac_46]

There is a thread running in the boxing forum right now about a death after a title fight. No matter how much protection you use, getting pound in the head -will- cause a level of brain damage. Is fighting......is not safe.

[sgtmac_46]

real simple, as I am a simple man.

if you aint used to getting hit, it's gonna be ugly when you do get hit.

and you WILL get hit on the street. True, that........nothing like getting punched in the nose hard by someone who means it........you don't want the first time to be someone who means you ultimate ill.

[sgtmac_46]

Real, hard sparring is where you strip away what you KNOW from what you THINK you know.......it's not about gaining a truth, it's about losing an illusion and subsequently training accordingly.

[nelsonkari]

How bad?

Life and death bad.

I believe the late BL once said:

"A fighter must be hurt occasionally and stung often in order to keep cool in a kill or get killed situation."

I agree with Bruce. Learing the latest dance steps won't save you butt on the street. If you've never felt the pain of a KO it is hard to learn how important it is to learn your basic blocks.

Just one man's opinion.

Nelson Kari

[BLACK LION]

How bad?

Life and death bad.

I believe the late BL once said:

"A fighter must be hurt occasionally and stung often in order to keep cool in a kill or get killed situation."

I agree with Bruce. Learing the latest dance steps won't save you butt on the street. If you've never felt the pain of a KO it is hard to learn how important it is to learn your basic blocks.

Just one man's opinion.

Nelson Kari

Pain is the teacher.... it has been since we were born... its a language all man and animals understand. You can tell a child 100 times not to touch the stove becuase its hot... buit they never seem to learn until after they get burned... this reciprocates throughout the duration of our lives and if we understand it and harness it we can separate the truth from fiction in your training real quick.... this is why force on force is covering so much ground.... we normally train with and against dry guns but found the truth once we inserted pellets into the chamber and put some gas behind them... once you get shot point blank with a 500fps pellet you learn quick whats right and what will get you mortally wounded...

[Big Don]

To my aging mind, this type of question is symptomatic of the schizophrenic society we seem to live in today, where physical violence is something that young people often see in media but very rarely are allowed to experience (at a non-lethal level).You allow them to experience lethal levels? You are bad ass... ;)


When I was young {and no it's not all that long ago :lol:}, people did not need sparring in their martial arts training to know what taking and giving a 'hit' in the real world felt like. We got an awful lot of that from schoolyard fights and the punishments that usually devolved from same :eek:. I couldn't agree with you more.


It would appear that our youth are now so wrapped up in cotton wool that the only violence they encounter in daily life is shooting each other; not a lot of help in unarmed martial arts :(.

Sparring in any empty-hand art is a quick way of getting students to appreciate timing and distance so that their 'solo' training visualisation has something to found itself upon. Other than that it's just plain fun - or at least it was for me in my empty-hand days.
IMO, learning Katas/forms, Sets, techniques are precursors to sparring. Sparring, a controlled form of fighting, is the fun part, and the GOAL of martial arts is to be a good fighter, at least to me.

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

My instructor has just started incorporating sparring into our curriculum (At the end of classes), and I love it.

The way I see it, sparring is good if you allow full contact, but in a controlled environment. You know the person you spar with and you know when to pull out of the fight, and you have people that can help to tell you when the match is over. Sparring is good because it conditions your endurance and shows you what you're good at, what you're bad at, and what your favorite techniques are.

I think we should view sparring as a tool for our training, in the sense that it helps our form and technique, not that it better prepares us for that street fight that we all seem to crave or fear.

Granted, all forms of martial art will, in one way or another, help prepare you for a real fight, but our ultimate goal should be simply to perfect ourselves through our training, not to be able to best any for. I used to train because I was always afraid that one day I'd be walking down the street and someone would pull a gun on me, then I realized that, even if I train for 20 years, if someone pulls a gun on me, the odds are slim that I'll walk away from it. That said, the chances of that happening are pretty slim as well, depending on where you are. That's when I realized that I should train just to train, to clear my mind, to stay healthy, and to have fun.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to spar to prepare for a street fight, we should spar just to better ourselves. ALL of our training should help us in a street fight, as there are people who do nothing but kata all day and can defend themselves pretty well, I've seen it.

[masterfinger]

1: A "sparring" match is against a similarly trained opponent (or at least trained in a similar style/method), and as such is no real indication of effectiveness of technique against anyone but someone trained in the same methodology as yourself, and usually under restrictive rules.
And who sets these rules of matching skill levels? Your school may, but not mine, so please don't place the limitations of your training as a comparison, cuz they're not even close.
2:Well, this can be done in any number of ways. And it isn't covered at all in no-contact sparring, so while I thoroughly agree with you that it is a vital (and often under-emphasised) aspect of martial art training to be able to take a hit as well as deliver one, you cannot take sparring as the way to find out. There are just too many other methods which can be used as drills in a much more effective way, and there are too many variants on the concept of sparring that do not include contact for it to be particularly viable here.
OK, I can see your view, but for the benefit of others, explain to me and the others who are reading this, the "other" methods of how one is to measure whether or nor not you can take the hits. Do we stand still and see how hard a shot we can take?

3: As for who runs out of gas first, this is absolutely essential... for a competition. If you are training for survival, most fights last 3 to 10 seconds, so endurance isn't so much of an issue. However, the ability to handle the adrenaline dump and it's after-effects is vital.
So you can fully predict that a street confrontation will last you 3 to 10 seconds? If we all had the gift of determining/guessing how long a confrontation will last, wouldn't we all train towards acheiving that? Sorry but thats a limitation. I do however agree that controlling the adrenalin dump is important.

So, in essence (once again), it depends entirely on why you are training, how you train in your system, and how you art your art define "sparring". And finally, if anyone feels that the traditional Japanese form of free-form training (randori) is less scary than the more competitive versions of sparring, I invite you to recognise that the traditional is far closer to a fight in that there is an attacker who is commited to attacking when the defender doesn't know hwo they are coming at them, and the defender is responding in ways the attacker doesn't know to prepare for. As in most fights, there is an attacker and a defender, as opposed to sparring in which there are 2 aggressors (which is not actually realistic at all).
OK my friend, this is something we agree upon. Part of our training is what we call D/A Sparring (Defender'Aggressor Sparring) which is basically learning to react against the sucker punch/direct attack. This where the elements of what we were talking about comes in to play. This is what separates "sparring' from "reactive defenses". The prior (sparring) helps to develope skill sets such as the jab, combos and the ability to take a hit. DA works on the more immediate apps. Kinda see the diff?

Franco

[/quote]

[Bruno@MT]

Real, hard sparring is where you strip away what you KNOW from what you THINK you know.......it's not about gaining a truth, it's about losing an illusion and subsequently training accordingly.

To know whether a technique works, you can also use partner drill (1, 2, 3, ...) step training against a resisting partner. The more experienced you get, the more you can add variations etc. This is how traditional martial arts have always been practised, and that seems to work too.


Is fighting......is not safe.

There is always risk with MA.
I have practised my basic tai sabaki enough that my sensei knows that I know what I am doing ( I am by no means at a high level though), and that I should be able to evade hard attacks and not just the slow 'see the bokken coming what am I supposed to do' attacks.

If I don't move or do the wrong thing, I will get hit pretty hard and possibly end up with a concussion if I am unlucky. I accept that.

I am currently practising zenpo tenkai (handstand flip), and preparing to learn koho tenkai (handstand backflip) even though they are not mandatory. I've already fallen hundreds of time, and I will fall some more. If I fall the wrong way, I can break my collarbone, arms, wrist, or worst case my neck.
And I accept that too.

If I practise blocks with my sensei and he tells me that he will hit to get me, I had better do something to prevent that from happening. Fine, no problem.

But setting out like a boxer, knowing that it is not a risk but a certainty that I will get hit in the head time and time again, and that I am guaranteed to have measureable brain damage... -that- is the part I object to.

To me, the risk of getting injured in full contact sparring (the consequences of head blows) outweighs the risk of not doing full contact sparring and being less prepared for full contact hits on the street.

My head sensei seems to be able to handle himself very well without full contact sparring, as do other senior ninjutsu practisioner. Even if full contact would prepare them better still, they are better prepared for conforntation than 99% of the people. So absence of full contact does not make a system inherently worthless imo.

[Chris Parker]

Hi Franco,

I'm the one you're quoting, by the way, so we'll get any confusion about that out of the way first. On to your points:



1: A "sparring" match is against a similarly trained opponent (or at least trained in a similar style/method), and as such is no real indication of effectiveness of technique against anyone but someone trained in the same methodology as yourself, and usually under restrictive rules.
And who sets these rules of matching skill levels? Your school may, but not mine, so please don't place the limitations of your training as a comparison, cuz they're not even close.

The "rules" are often dictated by the system and it's Instructors, but can also include implied rules as well. And, if you haven't noticed by each of my posts here, I do not indulge in sparring as described here, but the majority of "mainstream" arts do (and those I have been involved in in the past as well, just so we're sure). These implied rules include single opponents, referees, only certain tools being utilised (hands and feet, but no takedowns; throws, chokes and grappling with no striking; each different range, but no weapons and a time limit). These are only examples, and each may be included or not, or variations thereof. As we have established that this is the form of sparring accepted as the pmise of this thread, if you are not indulging in competitive-type sparring, then I would say you come down on the side of sparring not being essential. But that's just my interpretation.

2:Well, this can be done in any number of ways. And it isn't covered at all in no-contact sparring, so while I thoroughly agree with you that it is a vital (and often under-emphasised) aspect of martial art training to be able to take a hit as well as deliver one, you cannot take sparring as the way to find out. There are just too many other methods which can be used as drills in a much more effective way, and there are too many variants on the concept of sparring that do not include contact for it to be particularly viable here.
OK, I can see your view, but for the benefit of others, explain to me and the others who are reading this, the "other" methods of how one is to measure whether or nor not you can take the hits. Do we stand still and see how hard a shot we can take?

Sure. Geoff Thompson's Animal Day training is probably a very good example. Putting on protective armour, and training techniques that way is also quite good. We have often put on head gear, been hit very solidly in the head (more than enough to rattle you), then had to immediately hit a target, or defend against an incoming attacker. There are more, but these should suffice for now, I think.

3: As for who runs out of gas first, this is absolutely essential... for a competition. If you are training for survival, most fights last 3 to 10 seconds, so endurance isn't so much of an issue. However, the ability to handle the adrenaline dump and it's after-effects is vital.
So you can fully predict that a street confrontation will last you 3 to 10 seconds? If we all had the gift of determining/guessing how long a confrontation will last, wouldn't we all train towards acheiving that? Sorry but thats a limitation. I do however agree that controlling the adrenalin dump is important.

Check out the stats. Check with any RBSD group or trainer. This is, statistically, the length of time for most fights. Oh, and for the record, you may notice that I use the qualifier "most" fights. I by no means can predict any chaotic situation with perfect clarity, but I can look at the evidence and use it to best tailor my training and the training of my students for their (and my) needs. And that is not competition. This is not MMA. And as for it being a limitation, I always advise our students to get to a gym, aerobic and anaerobic fitness is not to be underestimated. But the reality is that a "typical" fight simply won't last for minutes, it'll just feel like it.

So, in essence (once again), it depends entirely on why you are training, how you train in your system, and how you art your art define "sparring". And finally, if anyone feels that the traditional Japanese form of free-form training (randori) is less scary than the more competitive versions of sparring, I invite you to recognise that the traditional is far closer to a fight in that there is an attacker who is commited to attacking when the defender doesn't know hwo they are coming at them, and the defender is responding in ways the attacker doesn't know to prepare for. As in most fights, there is an attacker and a defender, as opposed to sparring in which there are 2 aggressors (which is not actually realistic at all).
OK my friend, this is something we agree upon. Part of our training is what we call D/A Sparring (Defender'Aggressor Sparring) which is basically learning to react against the sucker punch/direct attack. This where the elements of what we were talking about comes in to play. This is what separates "sparring' from "reactive defenses". The prior (sparring) helps to develope skill sets such as the jab, combos and the ability to take a hit. DA works on the more immediate apps. Kinda see the diff?

Yeah, I see that you are finding a difference. And I'm glad that you are getting results out of your version of sparring. But for the main, and the most common interpretation of the term sparring, I feel my comments stand. Anyone who differs is more than welcome to ask any questions, I always prefer a lively debate. So my thanks to you for helping me clarify my position.
[/quote]

[JadecloudAlchemist]

To me it is not about sparring or not sparing it is about can you apply said technique in a realisitic manner.

Sparring implies 2 people agree to meet with said amount of precautions,rules and use of power.

A fight does not meet these requirements for there are no rules,no precautions.

There of course needs to be a level of resistance be that in sparring and practicing without sparing because it is the resistance that is the key and not so much sparring or not sparring.

But these topics have been discussed even in old times I remember a story concerning sword Kata vs sparring the students felt that sparring was more efficent the master showed them by parring every block during sparring and saying which part of Kata he was using. The point was he felt that Kata contained all the essential movements needed and if practiced long enough will provide success in real encounters.

[jks9199]

Without careful structure and planning, sparring is preparation for dueling. Even the roughest free sparring has some mutually agreed on rules. The Dog Brothers Gatherings allow the fighters to choose the rules -- and they mutually limit the damage they do to each other.

A duelist may do well in an actual encounter; after all, they have practiced and put their tactics into use in a more real environment. But a duelist may also be overwhelmed by the facts of real violence, outside the ring. It's not according to the "script." They may not play by the rules; they might attack with illegal or unorthodox techniques, or before they're supposed to. Or just really hit!

But kata (solo or two person), step-sparring, and other partner work can be equally bad at preparing you. They lend themselves even more to developing habits of expecting the attack -- even responding before the actual attack happens!

Scenario training, done properly is fantastic preparation for the real deal; it's as close as you can get without actually getting jumped. But to do it right is NOT easy and most people who think they know what they are doing are actually doing a pretty awful job. There's more to it than making up a scenario and seeing what you can do...

The best training balances all of these in a way that's appropriate to the student's goals. If they're preparing for competition, sparring may take priority over scenarios and partner work. If they're cops preparing to go on the street -- scenario training is key. You just have to focus YOUR training for YOUR goals.

[BLACK LION]

Without careful structure and planning, sparring is preparation for dueling. Even the roughest free sparring has some mutually agreed on rules. The Dog Brothers Gatherings allow the fighters to choose the rules -- and they mutually limit the damage they do to each other.

A duelist may do well in an actual encounter; after all, they have practiced and put their tactics into use in a more real environment. But a duelist may also be overwhelmed by the facts of real violence, outside the ring. It's not according to the "script." They may not play by the rules; they might attack with illegal or unorthodox techniques, or before they're supposed to. Or just really hit!

But kata (solo or two person), step-sparring, and other partner work can be equally bad at preparing you. They lend themselves even more to developing habits of expecting the attack -- even responding before the actual attack happens!

Scenario training, done properly is fantastic preparation for the real deal; it's as close as you can get without actually getting jumped. But to do it right is NOT easy and most people who think they know what they are doing are actually doing a pretty awful job. There's more to it than making up a scenario and seeing what you can do...

The best training balances all of these in a way that's appropriate to the student's goals. If they're preparing for competition, sparring may take priority over scenarios and partner work. If they're cops preparing to go on the street -- scenario training is key. You just have to focus YOUR training for YOUR goals.

That was a well articulated post... thanks

[AnglingBoi]

Its good to spar, Keeps your wits on end.

[Em MacIntosh]

Remebering how it feels when your fist strikes meat and bone will make you less reluctant to strike.

[sgtmac_46]

Remebering how it feels when your fist strikes meat and bone will make you less reluctant to strike.

That's why you do your bag work at the local slaughter house.....ROCKY STYLE! ;)

[shihansmurf]

Real, hard sparring is where you strip away what you KNOW from what you THINK you know.......it's not about gaining a truth, it's about losing an illusion and subsequently training accordingly.

Unvarnished truth for the taking right there. Well said. All the kata and step sparring in the world amounts to simply a well rehersed op-plan, and as Mr. Murphy points out, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy"!

Heavy contact sparring is the proving ground for the techniques that populate your arsenal for real world fighting. Now, others may be comfortable with trusting themselves to material that they haven't pressure tested against a resisting opponent that is activly striking them with enough force to elicit appropriate stress responses, but I sure wouldn't. If your goal in training in the martial arts is the development of actual fighting skills, then there simply isn't any way that is remotely as effective as heavy contact sparring. If you have other reasons for training, then go for it, but results vary accordingly.

Mark