Taken from : http://www.brown.edu/Students/Tang_Soo_Do/FAQ.htm
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What is Tang Soo Do?

Tang Soo Do, a traditional Korean Martial Art, is the art of open hand and foot self defense. Tang Soo Do was developed from traditional Korean martial arts dating back over two thousand years. Tang Soo Do is taught as an art rather than as a sport.

Tang Soo Do training allows the body to gain the ultimate use of its faculties through intensive physical and mental training. It's methods of instruction are designed to help an individual develop character, integrity, self-confidence, concentration and a respect for others.

Therefore, the element of competition against an opponent is not a part of Tang Soo Do's tradition. Students are taught mastery over their own bodies and minds and to develop their individual potential to its fullest. Even in sparring, the goal of Tang Soo Do instruction is not to vanquish an opponent. In Tang Soo Do, sparring is used as a means for students to help one another achieve a perfection of their techniques.

This is my understanding--that Tang Soo Do is oriented towards self-defense and is not a sport. I know it still shows a strong Japanese influence and in particular many of its forms are all but interchangeable with karate forms.

A 2nd Degree Tang Soo Do BB I know described the system as more 'traditional' than TKD, meaning geared less for sport. TSD stances need to be strong and deep, unlike the very upright stance of most modern TKD practitioners. There is a lot of emphasis on self-defense techniques through choreographed drills, like one-step sparring or Okinawa-te waza.

In short, it is very close to Japanese karate in many aspects. Their forms are a mixture of Japanese and Korean forms, similar to pre-WTF TKD.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu
[B]A 2nd Degree Tang Soo Do BB I know described the system as more 'traditional' than TKD, meaning geared less for sport./B]

The use of traditional here must indeed be qualified, for while Tang Soo Do (http://www.wtsda.com/index2.asp) claims, like all the Korean martial arts, a 2000 year history, it is indeed a relatively recent creation that was drawn in large measure from Japanese karate. I am not familiar with the history of Soo Bahk Do.

By traditional, I mean less sport-oriented and more budo-like, if you will. Emphasis is placed on proper discipline and form. Techniques are trained to help master them to the most minute detail. From what I've seen from the few TSD people I've known, particularly the 2nd degree BB I know, it offers a lot more by way of character development than modern TKD, which is why I say it is more budo-like.

Did any of this make sense? If so, please explain it to me :D

Cthulhu

Is there a TSD official position on sport fighting? I assume that TSD players will compete in open tournaments and that they perhaps have their own? Or might they try to separate themselves from TKD by discouraging sport competetion?

i originally studied japanese shotokan karate and i was very surprised to find out how much the 2 arts were similar.

the techniques and forms are almost identical. there must be some sort of cross over from these 2 japanese and korean styles.

it is a very useful style to learn and the arts itself is full of knowledge and depth. i would recommend it to anyone you is interested in taking up the martial arts.

as far as sport fighting goes, tsd tends to shy away from that. yes we do compete in competitions but itis hardly considered a sport karate.

I had heard that the individuals who developed both systems spent considerable time together at one point, hense the similarities. Don't recall if it was a training or school thing. Memory is -very- vague at the moment.

that would make the understanding of both similar styles easier.

i was very happy to find a similar style because when i moved to PA there were no shotokan schools available. i would have started over if i had no choice, but i am glad i came across tang soo do.

my eyes are more opened to different systems and styles now and it is amazing to see how much of everything is incorporated into other arts.

im not sure if we will ever truly know where each sytle originated, but we should be greatful for the masters of the past that enable us to continue to practice and preserve these "ARTS"

TANG SOO! :asian:

Tang Soo Do is taught as an art rather than as a sport.

I beg to differ ;) Every Tang Soo school that I've ever been around is as much TKD as anything. TKD was created as an umbrella incompassing many different Korean martial arts. Unfortunately....well....we've seen what happened with that.

TSD also seems to be very "anti-TKD" in their writings and words, yet from my experiances, it's all the same boat. Slightly different mechanics, but trophy winning as the primary goal, none-the-less.

On a side note..."TRADITIONAL TKD" was developed during the Korean war....not 2000 years ago. Korea didn't exist 2000 years ago. Anything to add "history" to an art, eh?

In my life, I've only ever found two teachers of Taekwondo that ever taught as they learned in Korea...which was very hard and effective. The others that I dealt with seem to be Tae-bo with false claims of self-defense and real combat effectiveness.*

*Note...I'm not hammering TKD stylists. The TKD dojang that I've visited talk about real combat effectiveness, self-defense and the like, yet when you watch them train it's anything but. A determined attacker would appreciate them having studied from the dojang they did....making their persuit that much more effective.

http://www.ili.net/~frey/karate/home/history.html (http://)


this has some interesting information..


Jay bell,
you obvisiously have a very wrong idea about TSD,
maybe you should pay another visit....

Hi Shin,

Like I said, these opinions are based on my experiances....and I've visited many different TSD dojang in Sierra Vista, Tucson and Phoenix, Arizona...all with the same result. Very little in the realms of combat know-how and a lot of trophy decorations everywhere.

i'm not big on the trophy thing. they are nice and the competition experience is good for all students. skill is a big part of competition also.

it all depends on where you train. my instructor has alot of knowledge about hand to hand combat and self defense which i like. i like the practical moves for everday situations.

some instructors love to compete and show off their school also. this is great as long as the students you teach can seperate competition and reality.

i dont think you can judge any style by checking out a few schools and classes. everyone is different. everyone has its benefits and negetive points. like every other martial art style.

The only TSD instrcutor I know teaches entirely self-defense and recognizes the similarity of his art to Okinawan karate.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I had heard that the individuals who developed both systems spent considerable time together at one point, hense the similarities. Don't recall if it was a training or school thing. Memory is -very- vague at the moment.

;) You are indeed so right!(well almost):asian:
Master Hwang Kee , the founder off Tang Soo Do and Masaatoshi Nakayama , who was later to become the cheif instruktor of the Japan Karate Association , did spendt some time training together in the late thirties/ early forties in China .
When they left to go back to their own countries , Hwang Kee took the Shotokan forms - At that point in time they were still showing signs of the Okinawan Shorin-ryu form that they originated from - and Nakayama took some of the high kicks that were later to become a trademark off Tang Soo Do . They were upon his return to Japan added to the arsenal of Shotokan Karate.
Take care
Zeke
:cool:

Are users of this forum happy with its description?


Tang Soo Do is a Korean martial art which teaches empty hand and foot fighting, fighting forms, self-defense, and weapons. Tang Soo Do also teaches people to live a healthy and harmonious life. This ancient martial art traces its lineage back 2,000 years to the Korean peninsula.

Originally posted by arnisador

Are users of this forum happy with its description?


Well both yes and no:shrug: It do fit the style , ain't wrong in any major way (The 2000 year old-thing simply HAS to be there when we are dealing with a Korean style :rolleyes: ) and it match their ovn description and understanding of the art . On the other hand it dosn't tell anything about TSD since it would also fit a lot of other styles so.....?:shrug:
Take care
Zeke

Someone else has posted (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2775) that the founder, Hwang Kee, has passed away. Can anyone confirm this?

Greetings all,

For some good research on Korean Martial Arts and their origin, please visit these sites. The research is done by David Beck, a 5th degree Hapkido and 4th degree TKD stylist.

http://www.beckmartialarts.com/ctkdfaq.html

http://www.beckmartialarts.com/chkdfaq.html

Respectfully,
:asian:

:) Great sites! You can tell he really knows his stuff:asian:
Respectfully
Zeke

Those faqs are essential reading, excellent history supplement.:asian:

another great site for TSD is www.traditionaltangsoodo.com

excellent info and background facts. i would have to agree, this is what TSD really is!

Any other comments on the description of TSD for this forum?

unfortunately with the passing of GM hwang kee, there will be many changes to TSD. the history will always remain the same but the future will be uncertain.

Grandmaster Hwang Kee wrote his history about 7 years before his death. The book is titled "The History of Moo Duk Kwan", it described the martial arts training Grandmaster Hwang Kee had when he first opened the Moo Duk Kwan. He states he had only 2 years of training with a Mr. Yang in Dam Toi (Tan Tui) and Tai Chi Chuan when he opened the Moo Duk Kwan the first time in 1945 teaching Hwa Soo Do.

By 1950 he added Shaolin Long Fist and many Okinawan techniques. He added the Okinawan techniques from books of Okinwan martial arts where he ran the Moo Duk Kwan.

For many years he taught the So Rim Jang Kwan and Tai Chi Chuan forms and later included them in his books on Tang Soo Do and then removed them in later books.

He did not claim to training with any Japanese or Okinawan practitioners during his travels to China.

Because Grandmaster Hwang Kee never earned a Black Belt in any Okinawan or Japanese styles like the other early kwan founders, he may have taught a more regionally authentic martial arts of the early Kwan founders in Hwa Soo Do.



These books included the Pyung Ahn (Pinan in Okinawan), Passai, Chinto, Ship Sum, etc.

Tai Chi was once taught as part of TSD, you mean?

This is all interesting!

He didn't teach tai chi, he taught the Tai Chi Chuan hyung known as Tae Kuek Kwon (Tai Chi Chuan), which is equivelent to teaching Tai Chi Chuan. In Kung Fu students learn "sets" which are roughly equivilent to the series of movement we use on the "corners" of our hyungs. The sets students learn are eventually combined to form one long hyung of the school. There are many more sets available today that are conbined to form a Tai Chi Chuan hyung which means there are many more Tai Chi Chuan forms than in the 1930's and 1940's.

This may be true for the So Rim Jang Kwon hyung (Shaolin Long Fist). There were a few major lines in the Shaolin Long Fist, with many offshoots. Loosely speaking, Grandmaster Hwang Kee was also teaching Shaolin Long Fist when he was teaching the So Rim Jang Kwan hyung.

Originally posted by llosik
He didn't teach tai chi, he taught the Tai Chi Chuan hyung known as Tae Kuek Kwon (Tai Chi Chuan), which is equivelent to teaching Tai Chi Chuan.

I can't be certain, but I don't think teaching a from called 'Tai Chi Chuan' can be equivalent to teaching Tai Chi. The above quoted segment contradicts itself.

Cthulhu

75 years ago, if a person was teaching the tai chi chuan form, the person would be teaching tai chi chuan. In order to learn the tai chi chuan form, one would have learned the sets required first.

Today, there is more variety available for instructors to choose from to add to the style such tan tui or springing legs for the lower body.

Todya there are far more tai chi chuan forms because there have been more sets made in which to create the final tai chi chuan form.

TKD and Tang Soo Do are not the same thing. Tang Soo Do is truely been (generaly) more traditional and self defence based system. Even in the names we can see the difference:


Tae Kwon Do = Way of the hand and Feet

Tang Soo Do = Way of the Empty Hand/Virtious Hand/China Hand

Michael Tabone

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Hi Shin,

Like I said, these opinions are based on my experiances....and I've visited many different TSD dojang in Sierra Vista, Tucson and Phoenix, Arizona...all with the same result. Very little in the realms of combat know-how and a lot of trophy decorations everywhere.

It would be interesting to know if those particular schools were independents or affiliated with a larger Tang Soo Do organization.

In the particular Tang Soo Do system I'm in we have one tournament per year, which is open only to students of our organization. It is the ONLY tournament our students are encouraged (but not required) to participate in.
They are free to participate in TKD/open tournaments all they want, but they do so on their own, case in point one of our TSD Masters is on the AAU National TKD team.

:)

i hear tsd is almost all kicking is that true?

no way.. we do all the srtikes,blocks, and other techniques found in karate.

it is very similar to japanese karate.

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Hi Shin,
Like I said, these opinions are based on my experiances....and I've visited many different TSD dojang in Sierra Vista, Tucson and Phoenix, Arizona...all with the same result. Very little in the realms of combat know-how and a lot of trophy decorations everywhere.

.. And you know that TSD is ineffective because of your singular visit to each dojang. :shrug: One visit to a school and your an expert on the art ? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by blackcrow
.. And you know that TSD is ineffective because of your singular visit to each dojang. :shrug: One visit to a school and your an expert on the art ? :rolleyes:

Ummmm...I believe you are a bit "quick on the draw" here. Jay merely mentioned HIS experience and did not CLAIM to be an expert. Plus given Jay's experience in MA, I respect his observations.

It is responses like this that keep people from posting anything worthwhile. You need to learn to take criticism a bit dude! Every art in the world has it's pros and cons. It is the debate of the century...! Just train!


nuff said!

it is true that different schools will do things different. no matter what the style is. that is why you have to choose which one is best for you.

im sure there are plenty of tae kwon do schools that are more into training than winning trophies also.

Originally posted by Deaf
Ummmm...I believe you are a bit "quick on the draw" here. Jay merely mentioned HIS experience and did not CLAIM to be an expert. Plus given Jay's experience in MA, I respect his observations.

It is responses like this that keep people from posting anything worthwhile. You need to learn to take criticism a bit dude! Every art in the world has it's pros and cons. It is the debate of the century...! Just train!
nuff said!

I would never go to the Russian MA section of this site and say ANYTHING negative about it out of respect for that martial art. Every martial art has something valuable to offer just like every person has something to offer. Jay doesnt have enough TSD experience to make an educated comment, especially not a negative one. You both need to learn more about respect.

Perhaps I may be able to help here. I do not claim to be an expert on Tang Soo Do; however, I do hold a yuk dan in TSD. I have also served as the US Representative for the Korea TangSooDo MooDukKwan Society, and am a current member of the Board of Masters of the Tang Soo Do Society.

That being said... TangSooDo can be a highly effective art; however, the growth and skill of any individual is dependent upon the sacrifices that individual is willing to make. To be honest with you, to compare an entire art based on obsevations at one or two schools is absolutely ludicrous. For example: people fail out of Purdue and there are those who succeed, but stink as Engineers... and Purdue is famous for having an excellent engineering program. Using the logic presviously indicated, that would make Purdue an awful school.

Martial arts today are geared and produced for the masses. All arts have things in them which are effective and ineffective. As a strategic caution, I would caution against any such preconceived notions... they cause dumb mistakes in self defense.

Originally posted by blackcrow
I would never go to the Russian MA section of this site and say ANYTHING negative about it out of respect for that martial art. Every martial art has something valuable to offer just like every person has something to offer. Jay doesnt have enough TSD experience to make an educated comment, especially not a negative one. You both need to learn more about respect.

Learn more about respect? What the heck? How was I disrespectful? Plus you seemed to have contradicted yourself in that post.

Originally posted by blackcrow
Every martial art has something valuable to offer just like every person has something to offer. Jay doesnt have enough TSD experience to make an educated comment, especially not a negative one. You both need to learn more about respect.

You just stated that every person has something to offer but when Jay "offered" his opinion on some TSD dojangs near his area...what you do?

Just out of curiousity here. How LONG have you been involved in MA? How LONG have you been involved in TSD?

All I mentioned was the fact that you seemed to have jumped the gun in your assumption towards Jay's comments and that all arts have their pros and cons. So I am quite confused as to WHY you would THINK that was disrespectful.

I'm not looking to start a flame war, however I do NOT take it kindly when someone tells me that I need to learn respect! Especially after being in the MA for well over 18 years! So if you wish to continue this thread feel free to send me a personal message.

~Deaf~

I understand how irritating that can be; however, you have to let it go. Anyone who is a senior teaches more by example, than by any other action. Besides, after my few short years, I have learned that I'm not getting younger, and I can't change the world. So I try to do the best I can to be at harmony with the world (which for a type "A" personality does pose a daily challenge).

Remember the principle of the Weeping Willow...

Which is stronger a willow or an oak? Most will say the oak, yet in a hurricane the true strength of the willow is revealed in its ability to yield, rather than the fragile strength of the oak, which can not yield so it must break.

I resort to my Confucius inspired philosophy:

What difference does it make? If you spent your time practicing rather than trying do define or discern the difference you would be beyond the need to know! :D

Frank, people are going to hate me here...:rolleyes:

LOL.

I didn't know you were into Confucianist thought. I thought you limited yourself to Quietist? I learned smething new.

The essence of the "Do" as taught by martial art is an action philosophy. Though it is essentially quietist, it is a search for self perfection as a method of perfecting society. One lays the foundation by first setting in place the form, not be laying bricks in a haphazard fashion.

Are you kidding? The Ru school sums up so much of what is wrong with Western Society... How can I not be a confucian thinker?

I suppose I see your point. I must admit, I am not as well versed in confucianism as I would like. Decent resources for self-edification would be appreciated.

The Book by my former professor On Confucius by Peimin Ni Ph.D.
Its a short book but very insightful.
Then I would reccommend the Four Books

The Great Learning
The Doctrine of the Mean
The Analects of Confucius
The Book of Mencius

If you can get the translation by James Legge you will get the original classical Chinese in addition to a no nonsense literal English Translation. It's not as easy to understand as some of the more modern translations but I promise you, if any scholarly types see that volume on your shelf they will be impressed! It is the quintessential translation of the Ru texts.

Hard to find tho, out of print in the US.

Originally posted by Shinzu
that would make the understanding of both similar styles easier.

i was very happy to find a similar style because when i moved to PA there were no shotokan schools available. i would have started over if i had no choice, but i am glad i came across tang soo do.

my eyes are more opened to different systems and styles now and it is amazing to see how much of everything is incorporated into other arts.

im not sure if we will ever truly know where each sytle originated, but we should be greatful for the masters of the past that enable us to continue to practice and preserve these "ARTS"

TANG SOO! :asian:

Well maybe Korea was known as Silla in that time?

actually it was broken up into 3 kingdoms at the time and china ruled the land. Silla was one of the kingdoms.

ah ok What are the two kingdoms then?

the other 2 were Paekche & Koguryo. here is a pic.

Is it the rule of Tang Dynasty in China when this happened?

TangSooDo does not date back that far. It uses the same basic forms as modern Karate. The thing is that there are no records as to what the Hwarang , Songja or others may have used at that time, and assuming that they existed, they would have been destroyed at the close of the Yi dynasty when the Occupation took place.

I hope this helps a tad.

Originally posted by yentao
Is it the rule of Tang Dynasty in China when this happened?
yes it is

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
TangSooDo does not date back that far. It uses the same basic forms as modern Karate. The thing is that there are no records as to what the Hwarang , Songja or others may have used at that time, and assuming that they existed, they would have been destroyed at the close of the Yi dynasty when the Occupation took place.

I hope this helps a tad.

i need to correct myself. japan was in control of korea at this time.

the silla kingdom deafeated the other two kingdoms with the help of china. when korea was united martial arts began to be practiced again. tang soo do gives respect to china for helping them.

thus tang soo do was born, so i believe that it did infact date back that far.

Shinzu,

Sorry sir, but you are in error. After the occupation Native Korea arts such as SipPalGi, Sado MuSool, etc. and Sino-Korea arts such as SorimJangKwan and Sorim, were banned. The first school identifying itself as TangSooDo, which is a Modern term according to linguists, opened up in 1944 under the direction of Yi, Won Kuk. (Which was also approved and overseen by Govornor Abe, leading to the conclusion that Master YI was a Japanese sympathizer and causing him to leave the country. This is why there was a president of the CDK and a succession before he passed away.) This was the ChungDoKwan. Kwon Bup and the like all came about, and there is some dissention here, around the same time. Bear in mind that Kwan Bup means the same thing as Ch'uan fa, so it may be a Korean art, which exemplified the characteristics of Ch'uan fa and was so named in its honor, or it could be an actual Sino originated art.

1. Yi, Won-Kuk openly admitted that his art was originally Okinawa-te, and if you look at Duk, Son-Song's technique who teaches in NYC and was the second head of the CDK, you still see this.

2. Hwang Kee, whom most people consider the founder of Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan, openly admitted in his history about studying books on Japanese Kata.

3.TangSooDo is a literal translation of the original Karate-Do and further KongSooDo, used be a kwan or two, is the transliteration of the newer Zen influenced name.

4. TangSooDo bears no resemblance to arts such as Taekyun, which is still taught today by the Korea Taekyun Association, which in my mind, as I have seen it but decided not to try it, reminds me somewhere between a dance and hackey-sack. It appears to be VERY fluid.

5. With the exception of the Chil Sung hyung, Hwa Sung, Hwa Rang and the Yuk Ro, the remainder of the hyung typically practiced in TangSooDo are from the Okinawan/Japanese traditions, and further in some cases bear names almost identicial and in fact are simple transliterations: Pinan, Pyung Ahn, Bassai, Passai and so forth. This was also the driving force behind the development of the ChungHan Hyung and later the Palgwe, which are officially replaced by the Taegeuk. The actualy reason given by the Koreans at the time was that they were too Japanese and wanted to better typify Korean thought and martial culture.

Shinzu, these are facts which I have learned over the last couple of decades and are readily available to anyone. I ahve personally, as a TangSooDo Kodanja been to a Shotokan school in Richmond, VA (Dai Ichi Shotokan) and fit in perfectly save the fact I have a midnight blue belt and they wore black. What you are proposing has already been argued and been found to be untrue. I myself 15 years ag had a similar position and thourhg research found that position to be erroneous. I'm sorry but it is true. TangSooDo was originally Japanese, or atleast what we have in Korean arts was. Now there are legends about various forms being taken to Japan by the chinese, Kong San Kun (Kusanku) being one of them. The Kicho however are purely Japanese as they evolved from Itosu's teaching.

i too studied shotokan so i do know more about that then TSD. i am always eager to learn new things. thanx for the info.

although your facts are in depth it is truly hard to discover the actual truth since we were not there. everyone has their opinions and my facts come directly from a grandmaster that studied under hwang kee himself.

Shinzu,

I have learned through experience not to believe 90% of what I am told about Korena martial arts. There is several histories written by Americans which cite sources. Not to mention, you cannot refute the information from the Koreans themselves. Don't accept anything they, or I, tell you at face value. Research it. Just remember one thing, don't let yourself get disenchanted... I let that happen to me, and once you travel down that road, it is a long hard path back.

Lee,Won Kuk founded the Chung Do Kwan in 1944 and called his style Tang Soo Do (CDK is the name of his school) From what i can see he was also the first to call it Tang Soo Do. Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan(school) in 45 and called the style Hwa Soo Do Till around 47 then changed it to the more popular Tang Soo Do name. Also Lee,Won Kuk trained directly under Ginchin Funagoshi, founder of the Shotokan school. MITHIOS

Mithios,

For some reason I was thinking that he went TSD than HwaSooDo then back to TSD before finally settling on SooBahkDo. I can pull out the text and look it out, but I was wondering if off the top of your head if I am just mistaken or the first TSD was left out of your post. Considering I just moved, finding the text may present certain challenges.

Thanks.

Mr. Clay, I agree there is a lot of crap to dig through in the history's of korean martial art's. National pride take's it's toll on history. From my point of view Lee,won Kuk got into hot water because he did not hide the fact that most of what he learned and taught was from Japan ! Most of the other masters hid that fact and they grew when Lee had to leave. Just my 2 cent's MITHIOS

As far as i know it was Hwa Soo Do first but i could be mistaken. I don't have my research in front of me. I will check it later and see. I do think Hwang Kee was trying to get away from all thing's japanese. And that incluced Lee,Won Kuk and his TSD-CHD. MITHIOS

Mithos,

You are correct - Hwang Kee first called his are "Hwa Soo Do", later changing it to the more popular "Tang Soo Do" and finally to "Soo Bahk Do".

Thanks. Appreciate it. Since I just unpacked my TSD textbook by Hwang Kee, I think I'll re-read it. (lol).

"Master Hwang Kee , the founder off Tang Soo Do and Masaatoshi Nakayama , who was later to become the cheif instruktor of the Japan Karate Association , did spendt some time training together in the late thirties/ early forties in China .
When they left to go back to their own countries , Hwang Kee took the Shotokan forms - At that point in time they were still showing signs of the Okinawan Shorin-ryu form that they originated from - and Nakayama took some of the high kicks that were later to become a trademark off Tang Soo Do . They were upon his return to Japan added to the arsenal of Shotokan Karate.
Take care
Zeke"

I heard a version of what you said being told by Darrell Khalid's group out in Phoenix, AZ. This same story circulated through California as well.

I'd like to know who told this to you and what information you have to support it.

Personally...I think it is a load of Pillsbury Doughboy dropping!

JH

I have to agree with John on this. Even according to Hwang Kee's writings this never took place.