Are there in fact martial arts native to Laos and Cambodia? I know that the current Vietnamese arts are largely based on modern Chinese and Japanese arts and that many Indochinese and Indonesian and Filipino systems are heavily influenced by kung fu (the "kuntao" systems)--as is karate of course. But I don't believe I have ever heard reference to a Laotian or Kampuchean native system. I imagine they exist.

i read recently the cambodians kicking up a stink saying that muay thai was their art and that the thais learnt it from them

Originally posted by thaiboxer
i read recently the cambodians kicking up a stink saying that muay thai was their art and that the thais learnt it from them

I hadn't heard that! I wonder if kickboxing is as popular there as it is in Thailand?

Originally posted by arnisador


I hadn't heard that! I wonder if kickboxing is as popular there as it is in Thailand?
yeah dont know too much else sorry, just read that statement basically, apparently they have a similar system, or whether the other claimed it from wherever who knows.

Do you know the name of the Cambodian system?

Perhaps this is the article to which you refer:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2001/0607/sp28-1.html

See also:
http://www.khmer.cc/community/t.c?b=11&t=78
They suggest possible names:
badai serei
Khmer kickboxing

Originally posted by arnisador

Do you know the name of the Cambodian system?

Perhaps this is the article to which you refer:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2001/0607/sp28-1.html

See also:
http://www.khmer.cc/community/t.c?b=11&t=78
They suggest possible names:
badai serei
Khmer kickboxing

Its a hard call really i think. whos to say the other is right or wrong?
The real facts are probably that they are a closely related peoples, probably migrated from china initially (i dont know the history of the cambodians by the way im assuming here its the same as the thais) and had those ways of fighting from the very beginning, which were probably similar, same as the burmese are similar.
I just think the thais probably have marketed themselves better over the years, perhaps they have put more effort into developing their particular style of kickboxing moreso than the others and this is why it is becoming so popular and marketable now?
Its just strange that the art could dissapear altogether in cambodia and forgotten about by so many. They are blaming the war in recent history(khmer rouge regime) for their arts demise, but if the art was so deeply rooted within their society and a national pasttime, why would it be lost, there would still be a strong underground presence in my opinion(just as the thais have, its a strength in their country). So hence my hesitance to believe the cambodians and their story that it was their art first. perhaps they did something similar, but to make big claims like that. Having etchings on a stone wall doesnt prove anything really. It proves they may have fought using some sort of kickboxing, but it doesnt prove they taught it to the thais, or the thais stole it from them.
Also its hard when the thais old archives were destroyed as well to say where muay thai originally came from, or how it was practised thousands of years ago, when they migrated down to siam.
All i know is, is that muay thai causes some serious damage when required too, whether its the same as its neighbouring countries arts is irrelevant really, just so long as im learning it.
But it would be interesting to see the intricacies of bando and the cambodians style, thats for sure. Really its all a bit too late to say muay thai isnt really thai now isnt it.
thanks for the links, they were similar to what ive read.

I agree with you--it's hard to believe that it could have been so completely lost in Cambodia, and etchings are scant proof; but as close as the countries are it's easy to believe that there has been some cross-fertilization.

Are there any other Cambodian systems I wonder, or Laotian?

Originally posted by arnisador

I agree with you--it's hard to believe that it could have been so completely lost in Cambodia, and etchings are scant proof; but as close as the countries are it's easy to believe that there has been some cross-fertilization.

Are there any other Cambodian systems I wonder, or Laotian?

mate i dont know unfortunately, im sorry im not much help here, itd be interesting though. id really like to see some full on krabi krabong. im saving up to go to thailand later this year hopefully, so i hope to train over there and perhaps learn some really traditional stuff.

Originally posted by thaiboxer

id really like to see some full on krabi krabong. im saving up to go to thailand later this year hopefully

That sounds great! I suppose you're starting closer to Thailand than those of us in America are.

There has been some discussion of Krabi Kabong here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=534

Other links:
http://muaythai.freeservers.com/vidclips.htm
http://www.thailife.de/tl_culture/thai-sportarten/krabi-krabong.htm
http://142.58.12.77:8080/FMA/Features/KKsticks/
http://www.francisfongacademy.com/Images/SEC%204_01/guru%20dan/danseminar.html
http://www.grandmaster.cc/history/MuayThai.php3
http://www.jkdberlin.de/seminars/seminars.htm (Search for Kabong)

Originally posted by arnisador



That sounds great! I suppose you're starting closer to Thailand than those of us in America are.

There has been some discussion of Krabi Kabong here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=534

Other links:
http://muaythai.freeservers.com/vidclips.htm
http://www.thailife.de/tl_culture/thai-sportarten/krabi-krabong.htm
http://142.58.12.77:8080/FMA/Features/KKsticks/
http://www.francisfongacademy.com/Images/SEC%204_01/guru%20dan/danseminar.html
http://www.grandmaster.cc/history/MuayThai.php3
http://www.jkdberlin.de/seminars/seminars.htm (Search for Kabong)

cheers. yeah a little closer to thailand than you guys. Ill check these out now.
:asian:

i don't have alot of informations on the following styles, but i came across these names while searching some sites:

LAOS:


Jeet Ki Do
Muay Lailao
Sha-Fut-Fan:
Vo Lag Hong Dao
We Dao Kan



KAMPUCHEA:

Badai Sarai
Brodal Borann Khmer
Kun Dambang

Thanks! Badai Sarai is the only one that looks familiar (as badai serei). I'll try to turn up some web sites about these.

I Found some information on laotian martial arts here (http://216.239.35.120/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://site.wanadoo.fr/ffjkda/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dvo%2Blag%2Bhong%2Bdao%26hl%3Den%26lr% 3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF8) . Note: The text is kind of weird because it was translated from French.:asian:

Badai serei means Freestyle Fighting in Khmer and is (I think) The traditional martial art of Cambodia
:asian:

Originally posted by Hu Ren Qianzai Long

I Found some information on laotian martial arts here (http://216.239.35.120/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://site.wanadoo.fr/ffjkda/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dvo%2Blag%2Bhong%2Bdao%26hl%3Den%26lr% 3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF8) . Note: The text is kind of weird because it was translated from French.:asian:


My friend you are the man, I did came across that site time ago and it was taking me forever to translate it from french to english.
thank you

No problem, Kickingdago
Maybe Laotian and Cambodian Martial arts Derived from other Indochinese or Chinese Martial Arts. Because, at the laotian link I Just Gave you, They Mentioned Something About Schools, Jeet-Ki-Do, and Vo Lag Hong Dao (Note: That text was REALLY screwed up :soapbox: :eek: :confused: ) Anyways, I'll do some more research on that.

I have an upcoming book that will go into detail on the bare knuckle fighting

(Message above truncated...)I have an upcoming book on the older bare knuckle fighting arts of the region entitled, The Vanishing Flame: The Bare Knuckle Fighting Arts of India, Cambodia, Burma, Thailand and Laos.Many of the surrounding countries in the region had indigenous military/combative systems both armed and unarmed that bled down into martial sports such as weapons fighting, wrestling and bare knuckle fighting, etc. Some of the lineages were lost in Cambodia due to war and turmoil specifically Pol Pots attempt to destroy the country's past. Many older masters still remain there luckily and they are attempting to propogate their arts into the future. I have a forthcoming article in Black Belt entitled Khmer Kickboxing: Fighting For Survival on the current state of the ring sport and the controversies with their history.Laos has much martial diversity which survives including sword fighting, ring sport, bare knuckle fighting. It seems the wrestling died away or is still practiced in small unknown pockets.Anyone interested in the book can email me at blackdiamondcobra@yahoo.com and I will add you to my email newsletter list which will keep you updated on current projects including the upcoming International Burmese Lethwae tournament in Yangon and new articles.

Please do post here when the book is ready.

I don't think I know any Laotian arts.

hmm.. mauy thai became very popular as a sport in thailand it has been incredably popular for a long time, I could see arts fading away without that popular intrest.

many Indochinese and Indonesian and Filipino systems are heavily influenced by kung fu (the "kuntao" systems)


Hello Arnisador, I would not say many Filipino systems were influenced by chinese martial arts.... there are some kuntao styles, but these arts are more cma influenced by silat....
and there also are some local wushu styles that were influenced by escrima.


Returning to the question of the thread there is silat in Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam...

I once met a skilled cambodian who learned a style called "lobok tao" (forgive my spelling), it was a local form of sylat using clawing techniques.....

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

Clawing techniques? Like Tiger-style?

I don't know about tiger style, this cambodian was actually learning setia hati with me (very good pesilat).
He showed me some jumping motions associated with strikes using claw like fingers.
There were lots squeezes.
Once he also used some movements of a crocodile.....

This guy learned another system with famous cambodian cattle rustler :knive,stick and sword but I forgot the name......

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.

Does anyone know any other Laotian or Cambodian martial arts?

I don't know much about Laos. I've been there many times but have never seen any sort of martial arts gym or school. I have also been to Cambodia many, many times (about 30) and have watched some fights there.

Cambodian's call their art Traditional Khmer Boxing or Muay Boran. They take great offense at having their art referred to as Muay Thai. The Thai's and the Cambodian's don't like each other very much and quite frankly I don't know who to believe. I will call it Muay Thai while in Thailand and Muay Boran while in Cambodia, simple.

I just came back from Cambodia a few days ago and was one of three Barang (foreigners) allowed into a Cambodian TV station to watch a show there. It was free, we got to sit ringside and I took some pictures and also got some video clips. All are shown below...
Clip 1 (http://www.thaiboxiggear.com/personal/a.AVI)
Clip 2 (http://www.thaiboxiggear.com/personal/b.AVI)
Clip 3 (http://www.thaiboxiggear.com/personal/c.AVI)

http://www.thaiboxinggear.com/personal/2.JPG
http://www.thaiboxinggear.com/personal/38.JPG
http://www.thaiboxinggear.com/personal/bc.jpg
http://www.thaiboxinggear.com/personal/42.JPG
http://www.thaiboxinggear.com/personal/43.JPG
http://www.thaiboxinggear.com/personal/32.JPG
http://www.thaiboxinggear.com/personal/36.JPG

Yes, I had heard that they called it Khmer Boxing and were sensitive about the issue!

I left out the N in boxing.

The links should be:

CLIP 1 (http://www.thaiboxinggear.com/personal/a.AVI)

CLIP 2 (http://www.thaiboxinggear.com/personal/b.AVI)

CLIP 3 (http://www.thaiboxinggear.com/personal/c.AVI)

Cambodian kickboxing would never be referred to as Muay Boran(which means old or ancient boxing in Thai and mostly refers to bare knuckle arts). Alot of people are used to the way the thais call these arts like Muay Pama(Burmese boxing), Muay Lai Lao(Laotian Boxing), Muay Khmer(Khmer boxing) and call them by these thai names. You will hear the Cambodians call it Pradal Serei or free boxing(Khmer free boxing). The official Khmer name is Kbach Kun Pradal Khmer. I spent alot of time training in Cambodia and this is the way they were always called in my presence.

In regards to the tiger style of fighting, there are variants of this in southern laos, cambodia and burma. In southern burma and southern laos, there are certain tiger styles that go into deep trances and become impervious to pain,etc. The tiger work in the older styles like bare knuckle is subtler. Lets say you have a one hand neck tie up and the other on the bicep controlling the free arm, the hand on the bicep will literally claw right into it. Its a sudden explosive, unexpected move as they simultaneously begin kneeing you. They work the clawing and ripping within the fundamental bare knuckle fighitng structure as well as changing elevation quickly.

I have only ever heard it referred to as Muay Khmer, Muay Boran and Khmer Boxing in all my times there. Perhaps the people who I have spoken with were not as knowledgable as those you were training with but I do know that I've heard all of the terms I stated as well as Cambodian Kickboxing.

It's puzzling to me why they would use Muay Boran. But nonetheless I take your word for it if you indeed heard it. I went and videotaped and photographed alot of the weekend fights as a guest of the sports authority there and the people in the audience had alot to say about everything under the sun so I imagine virtually anything could up name wise.

I forgot to mention that silat itself is taught in burma, cambodia, thailand. I met at least one teacher in each place.

I saw silat in Thailand and heard about in Cambodia, what kind of silat was it in Burma? Local silat?

One silat system I saw in Burma was malay silat. The other was a more of a mix with indigenous systems and that was in the south. The third I saw was the government sponsored form of silat which has the generic training format country to country and that was in the main training compound where they taught many different styles from japanese to chinese wu shu. Likewise I saw a couple of different variants like above in Vietnam.

There's an article in this month's Journal of Asian Martial Arts on Leth Wei (Burma) and Khun Khmer Boran (Cambodia).

One silat system I saw in Burma was malay silat. The other was a more of a mix with indigenous systems and that was in the south. The third I saw was the government sponsored form of silat which has the generic training format country to country and that was in the main training compound where they taught many different styles from japanese to chinese wu shu. Likewise I saw a couple of different variants like above in Vietnam.


could you tell us a bit about some lesser known indigenous systems in Myanmar? I heard something like "arakan", does it ring a bell?

Donn Draeger informed me that he'd seen some very strong silat in the Kra Penninsula of Thailand in the 1970's.

Ellis Amdur

The Rakhine state also known as Arakan is a coastal area of Burma and has their fighters have and indigenous flavor but I have only heard of a system called Arakan in refering to a group in Australia and not in Burma itself

Yes, it would be an arakanese system from arakan but what system is it thaing, lethwei, naban....it would be named more distinctly beyond arakan or arakanese.

Vinny this is the link for the Arakan guys in Australia I really don't kow anything about them other than the contact I had with one of them had my BS meter going crazy

http://www.arakan.com.au/

Hope all is well with you how is the book coming

I hear a lot about chinese system transplanted in other countries such as in indonesia, malaysia, borneo and the filippines with kuntaw/or kuntao and in Viet-nam with sino-viet styles, did anything of that sort evolved in countries like Thailand, Burma, Laos and Cambodia? Does anybody have any specifics to either chinese or indian influenced styles in those countries?

thanx,
Mauro