Agendas, Kenpo Associations, & Grandmasters

[Michael Billings]

I wanted to express an unpopular opinion. Normally I tend to try to calm the waters, but after this weekend, I wanted to make a political comment regarding the numerous Associations and 10th Degree Black Belts.

First and formost, I attended John Sepulveda's 1st Annual Spirit Camp. It rocked! The thing that made it so good for me, was the lack of political agendas evidenced. Everyone was there to learn regardless of belt rank or affiliation. The bad mouthing other martial artists, their associations, history, or personal agendas was not there. In the course of my years in Kenpo, 24 this July, the nature of Associations, Kenpo, and Black Belts have changed. I was glad to be back at a camp where it genuinly felt like "family" again, and not just paying lip service to the "Kenpo Family." Kudos to John Sepulveda and his students for organizing an event that let go of some of the petty bickering that goes on behind the scenes.

Secondly, the new American Kenpo Training System (AKTS) allows dual affiliation. Geez man, I had no idea how nice this is. It removes a lot of the reason for contention. I am opting to be AKTS member only, but the door remains open to study where and with whoever else I want, up to and including affiliating with other organizations. This latitude is extraordinary.

And lastly, in my conversations with many other Black Belts, I think there were about 34 or 36 of us, one thing came out. To remain a student of Kenpo you always keep learning, following Mr. Parker's example to the end. He used to say that every day he learned one thing new about Kenpo. When you tout yourself as a Grandmaster, you cease being a student (yes, I know this is contraversial and argueable.) As a 10th Black GRANDMASTER you are the person that other's come looking to you ... for all the answers. It is what this rank implies. I was there when we collectively as a group decided the rank of 10th would be reserved for Mr. Parker. I realize that once the line broke, after all, not everyone attended that Pasadena camp the year after Mr. Parker's death, that more would have to follow. I would ask "Do you think you are a 10th Degree Black?" Would you be one if Mr. Parker was still alive? I am willing to make a strong guess that most would not.

I am not trying to besmirch anyone who is a Senior in the Art or a 10th degree, rather question the entire process and structure of upper ranks. Why do you have to be a 10th, what is left to work for, (Associations, students, etc.) that could not be done at 9th? Ah well, tis a brave new world in the 21st Century.

Respect to All, and thanks to John Sepulveda for creating an environment where I can continue to feel at home and grow,

-Michael Billings

[Rob_Broad]

Mr. Billings, excellent post. I hat is off to you for having the courage to make such a great post. I could not agree more with you.

P.S. if the heat gets really bad you can come up to Canada and hide in my bunker with me.

[jeffkyle]

Got to give you credit for the courage! That is for sure.

[Iron Dog]

Mr. Billings: Let me join the others in congratulating you on your post. Some will condemn you for it, that's fine I feel your shoulders are large enough to carry all that. Others, will learn from it and attempt to replicate the camp that Mr. Sepulveda gave. To hear that 35+ Black Belts came to learn and not to politic is heartwarming and proves that there are continuing students out there regardless of rank and affiliation. My original teacher has passed on, but left me and others with the permanent mark of "train forever". His teacher still lives and drilled it into him and still speaks of the honesty of working hard at something worthwhile.
I hope that those who reply with a contrasting opinion will at least give in to the need to be a student forever!
I.D.

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I wanted to express an unpopular opinion. Normally I tend to try to calm the waters, but after this weekend, I wanted to make a political comment regarding the numerous Associations and 10th Degree Black Belts.

First and formost, I attended John Sepulveda's 1st Annual Spirit Camp. It rocked! The thing that made it so good for me, was the lack of political agendas evidenced. Everyone was there to learn regardless of belt rank or affiliation. The bad mouthing other martial artists, their associations, history, or personal agendas was not there. In the course of my years in Kenpo, 24 this July, the nature of Associations, Kenpo, and Black Belts have changed. I was glad to be back at a camp where it genuinly felt like "family" again, and not just paying lip service to the "Kenpo Family." Kudos to John Sepulveda and his students for organizing an event that let go of some of the petty bickering that goes on behind the scenes.

Secondly, the new American Kenpo Training System (AKTS) allows dual affiliation. Geez man, I had no idea how nice this is. It removes a lot of the reason for contention. I am opting to be AKTS member only, but the door remains open to study where and with whoever else I want, up to and including affiliating with other organizations. This latitude is extraordinary.

And lastly, in my conversations with many other Black Belts, I think there were about 34 or 36 of us, one thing came out. To remain a student of Kenpo you always keep learning, following Mr. Parker's example to the end. He used to say that every day he learned one thing new about Kenpo. When you tout yourself as a Grandmaster, you cease being a student (yes, I know this is contraversial and argueable.) As a 10th Black GRANDMASTER you are the person that other's come looking to you ... for all the answers. It is what this rank implies. I was there when we collectively as a group decided the rank of 10th would be reserved for Mr. Parker. I realize that once the line broke, after all, not everyone attended that Pasadena camp the year after Mr. Parker's death, that more would have to follow. I would ask "Do you think you are a 10th Degree Black?" Would you be one if Mr. Parker was still alive? I am willing to make a strong guess that most would not.

I am not trying to besmirch anyone who is a Senior in the Art or a 10th degree, rather question the entire process and structure of upper ranks. Why do you have to be a 10th, what is left to work for, (Associations, students, etc.) that could not be done at 9th? Ah well, tis a brave new world in the 21st Century.

Respect to All, and thanks to John Sepulveda for creating an environment where I can continue to feel at home and grow,

-Michael Billings

Excellent post sir! However the AKTS is not the only association that allows you dual affiliation. It also allows you to as you said...


Everyone was there to learn regardless of belt rank or affiliation. The bad mouthing other martial artists, their associations, history, or personal agendas was not there. In the course of my years in Kenpo, 24 this July, the nature of Associations, Kenpo, and Black Belts have changed. I was glad to be back at a camp where it genuinly felt like "family" again, and not just paying lip service to the "Kenpo Family."

It is the Chinese Karate Federation, led by Sean Kelley.

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

I am glad to hear other's also allow this. I think it removes one source of dissention from within and sends a strong message to the members.

Oss,
-Michael

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I wanted to express an unpopular opinion. Normally I tend to try to calm the waters, but after this weekend, I wanted to make a political comment regarding the numerous Associations and 10th Degree Black Belts.

Secondly, the new American Kenpo Training System (AKTS) allows dual affiliation. Geez man, I had no idea how nice this is. It removes a lot of the reason for contention. I am opting to be AKTS member only, but the door remains open to study where and with whoever else I want, up to and including affiliating with other organizations. This latitude is extraordinary.


-Michael Billings

I've had this latitude of associations since I started with Larry in 1990, it's nothing new to me. I was a member of 2 other Kenpo organizations at the time. I've gone strictly to the LTKKA because I've found no better place to get the Kenpo I want and choose not to spend the money to be in another. We have studios that are multi-affiliated with us as well.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Greggers69]

That was a great post Mr. Billings. I am new to American Kenpo I never knew that there was so much anger twards the different associations. It somwhat discourages some students who are really new their journey. Thanks again :asian:

[Michael Billings]

This was the least part of my post. It was just one area of what I feel like is a systemic problem. I am aware of the "Homecoming" of the Gathering of Eagles, etc., but what remedies have they brought to Kenpo as a whole. Maybe a lowering of some of the territorial issues that were so rife in the '90's, but I am not certain of that. I was not slamming the LTKKA nor soliciting an opinion of anyone's choice of Associations. Don't get defensive Clyde. Yours was the second post saying "mine lets me do that too" or "mine is better than yours is." To heck with that!!! That just goes to prove my point regarding the factions within Kenpo itself.

It may be a weakness, or it may turn out to be our greatest strength. I am looking for a little more in depth analysis and opinions regarding why people try to assert things that keep the Kenpo cauldron stirred. Examples could be Wes Idol's resolute defense of Mr. Pick and his promotion, in the face of mass contradictions (note: Mr. Pick's Kenpo has never been the issue), or the recent Kanzen Kenpo threads and issues. Not to mention the 10th Degree Black Belt threads in every forum.

Everyone has a right to their opinion and a right to express that opinion; to stand in the face of adversity or public opinion. Likewise people can argue until their silly little heads pop! But why raise your blood pressure? What is the secondary gain? Assuming the primary gain is to win the argument, which seldom happens in a forum venue.

I would never bring this thread up in KenpoNet, due to the hostile or adverse reactions I would get. Here however, I would like to see some opinions, if not overt actions that have been taken to resolve some of the issues I see as primary to keeping Kenpo fractured and apart.

Just some thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em, but don't expect me to argue specifics. I am expressing a well thought out concern that has been voiced by some of the highest ranking belts I know, and debated hotly over coffee and doughnuts ... well, maybe no doughnuts given my diet.

Respect to All,
-Michael

[sumdumguy]

EXCELLENT POST!!! Mr. Billings.
No longer being affiliated with any organization, I would have to say that the reason that people defend their Instructor or organization with such hostility is that often times they are afraid of being wrong. So is the case with some of the people who have gone to 10th I would imagine? But what are they gonna do, take it back? Well so now they are trapped in the messy little world that they created. When Mr. Parker died there was a huge organizational push to be in "my" org. or "we" are continuing the Parker way on and on and on.... Your right though, Mr. Sepulveda is a very Humble man, having just attended one of his classes at the Northwest Gathering. Which was not, I might add, any one association but actually had many reps from many different organizations all under one roof. Sorry I got lost, where was I? This was very refreshing for me to see after the sour taste I have in my mouth. Kudos to you Mr. Billings for such a bold and brave post.

[Rob_Broad]

After reading the first post by Mr Billings earlier I tried to go mending dome fences earlier tonight, and all I can say id Damn! if more people ran oragnizations the way Mr. Billings thought there wouldn't be much politics in Kenpo.

Mr Billings, I may be nothing more than a glorified white belr but my hat is still off to you,

Rob Broad

[Billy Lear]

Dear Mr. Billings,

I'd like to offer the following observation... I don't think there are many on this forum that would disagree with you on this topic, and I am certainly one of them to a point.

I totally agree with you on the fact that there does seem to be too many chiefs and not enough indians in American Kenpo these days. I also think that the political infighting within American Kenpo has to stop. The thing is, how do you measure weather or not somebody should be a tenth degree black belt?

I'm going to step out onto a limb here, and talk a little bit about my own instructor's promotion to tenth (Frank Trejo).

Mr. Trejo has been at the art for over 35 years. He lives, breathes, eats, craps, and pees Kenpo. The man was champion at the I.K.C. 19 times, the first and only man to win grand champion in both forms and sparring in one year at the I.K.C. (in 1984), 21 & 0 Pro Amatuer Kick Boxing Champion, and 14 & 1 Professional Kick Boxing Champion. He held his own Internationals Martial Arts Championships twice in the last two years (with very little to invest into the project), and continues to travel and teach seminars INTERNATIONALLY.

In my opinion Mr. Trejo is one of the few that should hold the rank of Senior Master in our art right now. Who else do you think should be on that list?

Just Curious... :asian:

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
This was the least part of my post. It was just one area of what I feel like is a systemic problem. I am aware of the "Homecoming" of the Gathering of Eagles, etc., but what remedies have they brought to Kenpo as a whole. Maybe a lowering of some of the territorial issues that were so rife in the '90's, but I am not certain of that. I was not slamming the LTKKA nor soliciting an opinion of anyone's choice of Associations. Don't get defensive Clyde. Yours was the second post saying "mine lets me do that too" or "mine is better than yours is." To heck with that!!! That just goes to prove my point regarding the factions within Kenpo itself.

It may be a weakness, or it may turn out to be our greatest strength. I am looking for a little more in depth analysis and opinions regarding why people try to assert things that keep the Kenpo cauldron stirred. Examples could be Wes Idol's resolute defense of Mr. Pick and his promotion, in the face of mass contradictions (note: Mr. Pick's Kenpo has never been the issue), or the recent Kanzen Kenpo threads and issues. Not to mention the 10th Degree Black Belt threads in every forum.

Respect to All,
-Michael

Dude, get over yourself, I wasn't being self-righteous or playing one upmanship, just thought I'd drop a not to say there are other like minded Associations. If you've been repressed in your associations and it's left you bitter, damn your bad luck, not mine. I happen to have a very liberal minded instructor when it come to these issues, which is why I choose to stay with him. I've never had to do pushups in a resturaunt, or airplane because I said something to displease my instructor or didn't follow proper protocol. I've heard some of the horror stories.

Second) I go out of my way to promote harmony within the orgs. I don't go out and recruit, nor do I hound them to bring me or Larry in for seminars. I go out to see what everyone else is doing, maybe I can learn something, maybe I can teach something, either way, I'm good. Ask Andre Sims when I visited his studio, he was kind enough to let me teach class one night when he couldn't make it, I just happened to be there.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Clyde

[Michael Billings]

Clyde said:
Dude, get over yourself, I wasn't being self-righteous or playing one upmanship,

That has never been my issue Clyde, nor is it now. Talk to Andre about me if you have any doubts. Nor is that the point of my post. I have been in some very good associations. I am not slamming those either. Read just a little deeper here. I am still addressing the Kenpo World, not the individual associations.

-Michael

[Michael Billings]

Glad to hear you are still around Billy, and congrats on being on of Frank Trejo's students. That is awesome.

Nope, I did not say too many Chiefs and not enough Indians, although I have seen that said elsewhere ... and in not quite so polite terms. Nor did I mean to slam Clyde, or his assertion about how good or not he is as an instructor. That just is not my point, nor did it occur to me to question, until he brought it up as his issue in reading this.

Nor will I comment on whether Mr. Trejo deserves 10th. If anyone "deserves?" 10th, he is at the top of the heap. What I am asking is whether the frenzied scramble of the '90's, establishing organizations did more harm than good?

Your point is extremely good. What are they gonna do? Take it back?


Billy Lear said:
I totally agree with you on the fact that there does seem to be too many chiefs and not enough indians in American Kenpo these days. I also think that the political infighting within American Kenpo has to stop. The thing is, how do you measure weather or not somebody should be a tenth degree black belt?

I personally don't think anyone needs to be a "Senior Grandmaster," I just think it is saying I am Mr. Parker's equal. They may or may not think that, so where do we go from here? How do "Grandmasters" which is what 10th is, not "Senior Grandmaster" (Hopefully still reserved for Mr. Parker) put the issues aside and work together? They have not for years, why should they now?

A supposition could be, "it is worth it when your students and members of the various associations want it." But then we are back to secondary gains ... what reason do heads of associations have for working together and uniting the Art more? Is it money out of their pockets ... Maybe! Is it a loss of prestige ... unlikely? How about ego conflicts, etc. ... no telling? But we saw how the American Kenpo Senior Counsel went, and various other organizations.

This is intended as food for thought and a referendum for some ideas regarding the current state of Kenpo's Associations. How does this affect the Art? Individual Practitioners? Schools? etc.

Respect to All,
-Michael

[brianhunter]

I have a few questions I hope some of you guys who have been around awhile can hopefully answer......

1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?

2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and impliment his own system of kenpo?

3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?

These have probably been beat to death, but this would definately put some things in perspective for me :)

Thanks
Brian

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
That has never been my issue Clyde, nor is it now.

God help me, I'm coming to Clyde's defense. Sirs, I just want to say that from my perspective at the bottom of the well, it did not read to me like Clyde was attacking you in any way Mr. Billings. I actually read his post just like he later went on to explain it. Just more info.
:)

[Michael Billings]

Clyde has no problem defending himself, nor was I trying to attack, but rather to keep focused. It seemed like he was going the way of, "but mine lets me do it" or "I promote harmony within the art." Not to be insulting, but neither Clyde or I are "Seniors," I also try to promote harmony. That just was not my point. I am talking about higher than us, those who were 6th and 7ths at the time of Mr. Parker's death ... or who have their own organizations now.


Clyde said:
"Dude, get over yourself, I wasn't being self-righteous or playing one upmanship, just thought I'd drop a not to say there are other like minded Associations. If you've been repressed in your associations and it's left you bitter, damn your bad luck, not mine."

I responded to the "get over yourself" remark and the supposition that I was ever repressed. Humorous at best, if you know me. Although I have never been one of the "elite" in Kenpo, I do know where I stand generally, with my teachers, and those senior to me in the Art. I try never to be disrespectful of others, or appear arrogant or demeaning. Example, I would never tell anyone to "get over yourself."

Doug, see my point? I don't want this to get off on what I do as an individual practitioner to "promote harmony", because that is not the problem as I see it. Rather what has to shift intrensically to change the nature of the Kenpo community as it exist now.

An example is the increased seminars, people learning from seminars instead of teachers (yes I know unavoidable at times, but most still had "a teacher" in the past), the unwillingness of anyone to "give" a little bit in terms of Associations, etc. What do you think?

Oss,
-Michael

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Clyde has no problem defending himself,
Roger that!


What do you think?

Sir,

I'm at work so I'm hoping to wait and post a considered post tonight perhaps but I think that Mr. Parker's death/lack of a "successor" was like the fall of the Shaolin Temple. It could not be undone. Everyone spread to the winds. It may not have been good for "Shaolin Kung Fu" but it was probably good for "martial arts" in the long run.

Roughly, although I'm not sure that I yet fully understand your question particularly as it applies to me, I think that the cream will rise to the top.

There are a few guys out there who are 10ths that no one takes seriously, and there are a few 6ths and such that are in high demand on the seminar circuit. As Mr. Parker, Jr. said "People would not bring me back if I did not have something to offer." Or something like that. So the good instructors, who are not afraid to go out and be seen, will become known and people will gravitate to them. I think if Mr. Parker had stayed in Pasadena and not had the IKC or gone all over the world doing demos, that we'd all be here speculating about that "Magician of Motion" guy who taught Nick Adams and had a school in California somewhere. But Mr. Parker went out and others, many of which were skilled Black Belts, gravitated to him. Something like that may be happening now.

I'm going to go over this thread carefully and post something else later I think.

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Why is it that Mr. Parker can be the only person to ever wear a 10th?

Essentially the highest goal of a teacher is to get his/her student to a level where their understanding, knowledge, and ability will surpass that of the teacher; It is an idea akin to stewardship.

Now if what you are saying is true, that no other person has the ability of a 10th, then essentially what you are saying is that Mr. Parker failed as a teacher.

Just my opinion

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Why is it that Mr. Parker can be the only person to ever wear a 10th?

Essentially the highest goal of a teacher is to get his/her student to a level where their understanding, knowledge, and ability will surpass that of the teacher; It is an idea akin to stewardship.

Now if what you are saying is true, that no other person has the ability of a 10th, then essentially what you are saying is that Mr. Parker failed as a teacher.

Just my opinion

I don't know, but in other arts there is such a thing as posthumous rank. Maybe that should be done in this case? Then nobody would "out rank" or claim the same rank as Mr. Parker. :asian:

[Bardiche]

Mr. Billings, thanks for posting such a spirited topic. This particular subject will always be touchy and incite endless debate. For some reason human beings have a need to place one person or thing at the top to try to define whatever "it" is someone is trying to achieve.

Too a certain extent this debate is a matter of semantics. It comes down to what does the individual believe the 10th degree means to them. If one asks 10 different kenpoists, there will be 10 different answers, some similiar and some wildly different. My personal view is this: Mr. Parker is the FOUNDER, no one will ever take that title (if they did it would be their own system, changed (85-90% from the system they learned). If there are kenpo seniors who want to take on the headaches and outside BS of claiming a 10th, then good luck to them. Over the last decade, the quality instructors have shown their skills and students have sought out those with whom they want to train.

I no longer care about what rank my instructor is. I care about the material that I am learning (and want to learn). Ultimately, the skill and quality will show on the mat.

But, it is fun to mix it up with others about the "hierarchy of kenpo".

Bardiche

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
why people try to assert things that keep the Kenpo cauldron stirred. Examples could be Wes Idol's resolute defense of Mr. Pick and his promotion, in the face of mass contradictions

My only assertions are that Pick is Ed Parker's premiere Kenpo Knife student, is one of Parker's oldest students, and one of the only AK seniors that actually started with Parker as a white belt...remaining with him to Parker's death.

As an honor I am allowed the opportunity to train under him as a student and share time as a friend.

Finally, this wonderous assertion that this AKTS is your first experience with being allowed to affiliate or train with other organizations is simply falsehood and incorrect on your part. While in the UKS you were afforded the very same opportunity...as I have. Bryan Hawkins has never made an issue of me training with, or traveling to, anyone I have chosen.

I appreciate your desire to post your passion, but you shouldn't do it at the expense of what is the truth.

WI, HI
UKS

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by brianhunter
I have a few questions I hope some of you guys who have been around awhile can hopefully answer......

1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?

2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and impliment his own system of kenpo?

3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?

These have probably been beat to death, but this would definately put some things in perspective for me :)

Thanks
Brian

Anyone??

[Michael Billings]

I was not besmirching the UKS, and do not appreciate your putting those words in my mouth, or post as the case may be. I never said the AKTS was my:


"Wes Idol said:
Finally, this wonderous assertion that this AKTS is your first experience with being allowed to affiliate or train with other organizations is simply falsehood and incorrect on your part."

I would not demean Bryan Hawkins, the UKS, or Mr. Pick. If this is what you read into my post, then the issues may need either clarification or interpretation. Feel free to chime in, you have lots of experience in the Kenpo World and are associated with lots of the Seniors or instructors I know and respect. My split with the UKS was strictly what I said in my letter of resignation. I harbored no ill feelings what so ever. Any who think that I stated otherwise, feel free to contact me via PM, email, or phone. That includes you Wes!

Once again, I am not attacking any individual or Association, but rather trying to approach a topic that is hard to discuss without some concrete examples. I said nothing derogatory about Mr. Pick or your defense of him, not that he needs that, rather I used the "process" that you have had to go through on forums as an example of a contentious serpent's nest of feelings and opinions. I am glad you are his student. I have nothing but respect for you or the only other Mr. Pick student I know, Marcus Bonfigliano.

That does not invalidate my perception or point. 10th huh? What is it about this rank that puts everyone on the defensive? This reaction itself exemplifies part of the problem. I personally think if you deserve it, wear it proudly. Heck, I am not judging who does or does not deserve it. I reserve the right to my own opinion, but what does "bother" or perhaps "concern" me, is the Kenpo World we exist in. Conflictual, argumentative, some egotistical stances, that actually serves to further frission the incendiary relationships already fragmented.

Solutions, perceptions, analysis, etc. is what I am looking for. Don't read something in that was not intended Wes. I heard about the other thread regarding you and Mr. Pick, but have not even read it yet as I was out of town since last Wednesday.

Hope this clarifies, if not feel free to call. Don't assume I do not know who my friends are, or that I would attack you, the UKS, Mr. Pick, or Bryan Hawkins. I WAS NOT. Your reaction concerns me however. Sorry if you felt like I was making something personal out of it. I have lots of other experiences outside the UKS "family", and remember, I was way out here in Texas, supporting the UKS as much as I could, while still being a "distant relative" of the family, at best.

Yours in Kenpo,
-Michael Billings

[Wes Idol]

Your "mass contridictions" is based on what? Dennis claiming his one conversation with one or two people? It is quite clear that many were going to be promoted to 8th by Parker in 1991. Tom Bleeker heard many of The Journey honorees speak of the happenings (all of which is on tape). Once again you should get some of your facts together before you start character assasinating others.

WI, HI
UKS

[Michael Billings]

Some of your questions have been answered on other threads. I recommend going to the Q & A where Mr. Conatser is graciously attempting to answer any relevant, and some irreverant, questions. He can clear up any history questions you have.

Oss,
-Michael

[Michael Billings]

Regarding your second post, and assertion I am engaging in character assasination.
-Michael

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Regarding your second post, and assertion I am engaging in character assasination.
-Michael

You are? :confused:

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I was glad to be back at a camp where it genuinly felt like "family" again, and not just paying lip service to the "Kenpo Family." Kudos to John Sepulveda and his students for organizing an event that let go of some of the petty bickering that goes on behind the scenes.[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael Billings [B]

Up until just recently, you were a regular at annual UKS camps for years...an association that you acquired your 4th degree at. This quote reads like you have been experiencing this "just paying lip service" for some time. Can you see how I might be "reading into this," as you put it?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael Billings
[B]Secondly, the new American Kenpo Training System (AKTS) allows dual affiliation. Geez man, I had no idea how nice this is. It removes a lot of the reason for contention. I am opting to be AKTS member only, but the door remains open to study where and with whoever else I want, up to and including affiliating with other organizations. This latitude is extraordinary.

Did you have contention for the UKS? How else should this be taken...with regard to where you trained for more than a few years prior to this new experience?

Michael, you and I have always put together shared time that I have enjoyed very much. That day we tested together will always stick out in my mind as sacred time. I know you were way out in Texas, supporting as much as you could. And to finalize your credit, Bryan Hawkins has always (and still does) hold you in high regard. I simply think you were a little careless with your wording here.

WI, HI
UKS

[Billy Lear]

WHOOPS... NEVER MIND... I THOUGHT YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE ENGAGING IN CHARACTER ASSASSINATION... MY BAD. :D

[sumdumguy]

Wow!!! this is getting interesting! As an observation, I believe that most of you missunderstood what Mr. Billings was looking for? But hopefully through friction can come some resolution. I personally did not see any attacks on any Individuals or Organizations? But maybe I missed something. I am curious to know though, Do you think that if the Kenpo world came together under one HEAD that the people within the Organization (for lack of better terms) would truly be happy? I believe that (like in life) there are too many INDIVIDUALS as we can see from the responses to this post, to have a large Organization again. The whole 10th degree thing comes back to the same problem, The individuals that are, all have a different reason or logic for being such. Since there was never any mandate set by MR. Parker himself, there will never (I'm afraid) be a resolution, for this particular (problem?) phenomenon. I do however think that in the future the NOW Seniors will probably have some sort of mandate for this to avoid further confusion and problems in the future with their students.
This is just my observation, most of you don't know me, but feel free to attack at will.
:asian: :asian:
Have a Nice Day!!!

[Michael Billings]

... but Wes, whether or not I was referring to the UKS or not ... and I was not, it was still not a personal attack or attempt to assasinate anyone's character. You have read enough of those kind of posts to know the flavor of them. Should I have a problem with someone, I take it to them, like I did just now with you.

I think maybe you assume the UKS was all the input or info I have heard over the years, or the only organization or association that I was referring to, it was not. This post is a result of years of observation, experiences, friends ... and sometimes not friends ... complaints or frustrations. Not to mention the MartialTalk and KenpoNet forums, which I just barely scratch the surface of.

Yes, I do see how you could read it as a criticism of the UKS. But I was not laying that at your or Bryan's door, or I would have laid it directly in front of you. I am concerned you took it so personally and aggressively responded, rather than asking the questions of me. This is an example of how a lot of people react to cross-association disagreements. I almost prefer it to a campaign of innuendo and rumors, but neither is an approach that leads to solutions, but rather continues to increase the friction.

Oss,
-Michael

[lonekimono]

Hey mike i thought i had it bad this weekend after the kenpo camp i was at, anyway i feel better lol.
and i want to say hello to an old friend (kenpo prof)
hope all is well.

yours in kenpo:asian:

[lonekimono]

one more thing FIGHT NICE:D




yours in kenpo
hand sword ,karate chop, pork chop. they all hurt,,,you do the math

[D_Brady]

Lonekimono, People didn't play nice at camp?

[lonekimono]

the camp was not bad at all, it was this one person that was a pain in the a@# other than that i had a great time,



yours in kenpo



ps i could tell you more but not on the this post.:mad:

[Dun Ringill]

Is anybody else getting tired of listening to Wes Idol? Mr. Idol maybe you should go back to the kenponet. I read the way you treated Mr. Conatser and now Mr. Billings and your lack of protocol and respect makes me sick.

oss

[RCastillo]

Let's not venure out of Texas, Billy Lear's waiting for us, along with the Masta of Disasta Trejo!:anic:

As long as we stay in bounds, we're safe!

[Michael Billings]

Given the responses to my post, they may actually make an effort to come and get me. If so I am heading South to the coast.

Did you notice that within 24 hours this thread got over 600 "Views" - not 600 people, but looked at over 600 times. But only 36 responses (at that time.) Lots of interest apparently, but some hesitancy about jumping in the water. I would say the water is fine, but you can see for yourself, sometimes it gets a little chilly. Other times it is great for swimming.

Oss All,
-Michael

[kenpo3631]

I don't belong to any associations and I train where and with whomever I so wish.

[JD_Nelson]

I have only been in martial arts for about 1.5 years.

I had always wanted kenpo to be the art I studied becasue i my own philosophies in self defense. I almost went another direction when I started reading the forums and saw such political BS. I joined a kenpo school and have been happy since, but I have been reluctant to post or engage in any lenghthy discussions just to avoid conflict.

One of the gentleman that had me skeptical of the kenpo communty in the beginning, made a lasting impression on me the other night. On April 15 2003 I had a brief discussion with a next generation Sr. This man made me feel very welcome to the entire kenpo community and invited me to come learn from him, at least in a seminar. I am now planning to be there. His generosity seemed genuine and straight forward.

This is the type of Kenpo Brotherhood I wish was displayed more often. I am glad you had a great experience. It is tough to try to express any type of feeling about an positive experience on this or any board if you make comparisons of any kind. Someone will always feel like they are being put down when compared.

Salute.

JD

[Kirk]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson
I have only been in martial arts for about 1.5 years.

I had always wanted kenpo to be the art I studied becasue i my own philosophies in self defense. I almost went another direction when I started reading the forums and saw such political BS. I joined a kenpo school and have been happy since, but I have been reluctant to post or engage in any lenghthy discussions just to avoid conflict.

One of the gentleman that had me skeptical of the kenpo communty in the beginning, made a lasting impression on me the other night. On April 15 2003 I had a brief discussion with a next generation Sr. This man made me feel very welcome to the entire kenpo community and invited me to come learn from him, at least in a seminar. I am now planning to be there. His generosity seemed genuine and straight forward.

This is the type of Kenpo Brotherhood I wish was displayed more often. I am glad you had a great experience. It is tough to try to express any type of feeling about an positive experience on this or any board if you make comparisons of any kind. Someone will always feel like they are being put down when compared.

Salute.

JD

You should see the sense of community and family among the
IKCA. And call Vic LeRoux on the phone. It's unbelievable.

[Wes Idol]

Vic has been a long time friend. Even since my own beginings (in the mid 1980's), both him and Chuck Sullivan have been nothing short of approachable and generous. Absolutely good people!

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Dun Ringill
Is anybody else getting tired of listening to Wes Idol? Mr. Idol maybe you should go back to the kenponet. I read the way you treated Mr. Conatser and now Mr. Billings and your lack of protocol and respect makes me sick.

In an attempt to honor your feelings and position, I will say that it has never been my intention to support the promotion of disrespect on these public forums, or on any forums. And finally, my apology for playing apart in your opinion.

With that said, it saddens me that you have only seen it in my posts. With Michael Billings, clearly he posted something, and meant not entirely what I read into...he sees it that way as well. Regarding Dennis Connatser, I invite you to re-read his post. Although he believes he has all the facts, he uses sarcasm to support his dialogue and then takes no credit for communicating that way. In this instance, I don't let people off the hook.

With my willingness to call people on their B.S., I too try to keep myself in check. I am very available, should someone desire to keep me accountable...which is why I always use my real name and share my school's address.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Given the responses to my post, they may actually make an effort to come and get me. If so I am heading South to the coast.

Did you notice that within 24 hours this thread got over 600 "Views" - not 600 people, but looked at over 600 times. But only 36 responses (at that time.) Lots of interest apparently, but some hesitancy about jumping in the water. I would say the water is fine, but you can see for yourself, sometimes it gets a little chilly. Other times it is great for swimming.

Oss All,
-Michael

If you come, you'll be safe here. I don't even think the Goldendragon will come here, he hates the humidity!

Yep, I'm very hesitant to get into these conversations, though I'm just a 21 year rookie, so I have lots to learn yet. It's safer on the side lines waiting for the coach to put me in!

Well, watch out for sharks when swimming!:eek:

[Michael Billings]

I need to visit friends in Corpus anyway. I owe them big.

-Michael

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by brianhunter
I have a few questions I hope some of you guys who have been around awhile can hopefully answer......

1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?

2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and impliment his own system of kenpo?

3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?

These have probably been beat to death, but this would definately put some things in perspective for me :)

Thanks
Brian

Hi folks!
Brian asked me these questions this morning so I thought i'd answer them here as well...

1.Mr. Parker did indeed receive his black belt from Prof. Chow and the actual certificate he received is featured in the "Memories of Ed Parker" book. I'm in the process of relocating my studio so if someone would be so kind as to look and place the date on this thread?
2.Mr. Parker on several occasions tried to get Prof. Chow to come to the mainland with no sucess. He would also look at certain techniques and from his past experience on the streets of the kalihi district and see that some of the movements were not practical ,per se, in modern encounters. As far as offically when it happened, I'd probably say the 1960's where the actual "parting of the ways" occured.
3.The approximate date that Mr. Parker donned the tenth Degree Black Belt was subsiquent to the creation and completion of what was originally titled "Advanced Kenpo". However, Jay T. Will had recently published a book with that titile, So, Mr. Parker used "infinite insights into kenpo". That was his "masterpiece".

I think what Brian is trying to get to is that Ed Parker had a logical progression in regards to his rank promotions and agenda for the requirements he had for his ranks.
at one point some of his students got together and said to Mr. Parker "Mr. Parker, we feel that you should wear the Tenth Degree Black Belt." He got very offended and said to the person "I'LL tell YOU when i'm ready to wear a tenth!"
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[molson]

Michael,

I wanted to thank you for your recommendation to train with Mr. Burks. I have attended several of his classes although very sporatic due to my location and work schedule. It is a pleasure to train where the only goal is to learn. Mr. Burks does not criticize my style or techniques, abilities, only offers great instruction for me to take or leave. I must say great stick material.

Thanks again

Jeff Nelson

[lonekimono]

Guys i got to tell you this is better than tv,it's like i can't wait to come back and see who's going to get it next(lol)?
but look keep it going,than AFTER everything is done,everything is said, take a step back and look at it,than look at yourself.
you know 10 years from now who cares? hey guys lets put the power you have in this bullsh@# and put it to something better.



yours in kenpo::confused:

[Michael Billings]

Very good sir. That is exactly what I want.

-Michael

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by lonekimono
Guys i got to tell you this is better than tv,it's like i can't wait to come back and see who's going to get it next(lol)?
but look keep it going,than AFTER everything is done,everything is said, take a step back and look at it,than look at yourself.
you know 10 years from now who cares? hey guys lets put the power you have in this bullsh@# and put it to something better.



yours in kenpo::confused:

The power of B.S. is great indeed... hell cow farts are killing the ozone layer... maybe we could learn something from environmentalists after all... TO MUCH B.S. CAN KILL A PLANET!!! Put down the beans, and step away from the chilli guys. The atmosphere is gettin' bad in here. :shrug:

[lonekimono]

and the singer going sing a song,so let me introduce to you
the one and only Billy Lears of sgt.peppers ,,wait ,wait oh Sh#@
i'm sorry that Billy Spears (lol) well with a name like that you can't all be bad.:D


yours in kenpo

[Billy Lear]

The longer you shovel crap you start to smell like it. If you want to sling B.S. around at every one, and cause fights... then that is what you'll be famous for. If you want to be constructive and look past someone's faults (and not exploit them or make a big deal out of them) you might learn something.

In the last year I've developed a different prespective on this... Mostly, because I was wearing quite a bit of what I was shoveling...

All in all I believe we as martial artists should be open minded toward one another... and listen to what they are actually saying...

Mr. Conatser says he only knows of Mike Pick being promoted to tenth. That's a valid point, and is his experience (neither wrong or right, it just is). On the other hand Mr. Idol says that he has heard from many that Mr. Pick was a seventh degree black belt when Mr. Parker died (His expereince is as valid as Mr. Conatser's).

I called a couple of people about this, one of them being Mr. Trejo, and Mr. Trejo says the Mr. Parker introduced Mike Pick as being one of his seventh degree black belts at an instructors camp held at Barbara Hale's school in the late eighties.

Does that mean that Mr. Conatser is wong?
No. It just means that to his prior knowlege, Mr. Pick was not a seventh.

Does that mean that he must accept Mr. Trejo's recollection as the truth?
No. I don't think he does, that's between him, Mr. Trejo, and other various members of the Kenpo community.

I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I do have my own veresion of the truth as it relates to this topic... and the truth is: Frank Trejo told me that Mike Pick was a seventh before Mr. Parker died.

Does that mean he was?
I don't know I wasn't there, but I am definately compelled to believe my instructor. He hasn't lied to me yet. :asian:

[Rob_Broad]

Billy

Great post, I love the fact that you have that loyalty to your instructor. Mr. Trejo is by far one of the top guys in Kenpo today and he must be for you to be so loyal to him when it is the trend of the day for people to be stabbing people in the back.

You are lucky to have Mr. Trejo as your instructor, and I think is lucky to have you as a student.

[lonekimono]

hey Mr Billy i have to say this, IS ALL THIS SH#@ GOING TO CHANGE YOU OR ANYONE? LIKE MY LATE GRANDFATHER USE TO SAY "WHO CARES" you yourself and other's and myself must keep the flame burning, but enough is enough,
the only buning i got is in my chest from reading all this bullsh#@.

do you remember this?

KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW ,KNOW WHY IT'S SO.

YOURS IN KENPO:asian:

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by lonekimono
hey Mr Billy i have to say this, IS ALL THIS SH#@ GOING TO CHANGE YOU OR ANYONE? LIKE MY LATE GRANDFATHER USE TO SAY "WHO CARES" you yourself and other's and myself must keep the flame burning, but enough is enough,
the only buning i got is in my chest from reading all this bullsh#@.

do you remember this?

KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW ,KNOW WHY IT'S SO.

YOURS IN KENPO:asian:

Mr. Kimono :D ,

All of this crap, is just that brother man. Why fight over something that nobody can really be right about? It doesn't matter who's right, but who's left, anyways...

peace,
Billy

[cdhall]

Lonekimono,

As I once Pointed out on a thread somewhere, this is Martial TALK. Nothing else. If you are Talking about Martial matters then you are doing it right.

As to the merit of all this BS, it depends on which BS you are referring to. But I will tell you this- if there had been an internet in 1985 and I saw on there that Mr. Parker was teaching seminars in my area even though my instructor never publicized this and some of his instructors said that Mr. Parker only taught private lessons in his house in LA, then I would have been off to see for myself in a HEARTBEAT and instead of joining the IKKA in 1991 after Mr. Parker's death, I would have found a way to get more involved with Mr. Parker back then.

So there very well may be information on here that will change someone's life. That what all this information sharing is about.

I use MartialTalk for research and to confirm/deny rumors and what not. Others like to jump on here and cause or perpetuate trouble. Several of the latter persons have "left."

So while I appreciate that you think there may be some mudslinging going on, Billy made some excellent points earlier about people knowing only what they know.

Mr. Parker said that he gained much insight when considering a 3rd point of view. I think there are considerably more than 3 points of view on MartialTalk and I for one learn something even when someone slings mud. If nothing else, I learn that they like to sling mud. And has Billy has also pointed out, sometimes when you spread stuff around, some of it sticks on you.

I personally favor giving people all the rope they want. Some of them will take it and run. Some of them will make a noose and hang themselves.

You make a valid point about there being better things to do. But right now it is 12am, I am not in much condition to work on belt material right now but I might learn something here on MartialTalk. I just want to point out there there is merit in everything. Even bad food tells you that you don't want anymore. I appreciate you may be telling us that you don't want anymore, but no one is forcing you to read this stuff.

And by the way. I'm not commenting on any specific truth or rumors on this thread only that I hope no one becomes afraid to post here. While I have personally held some stuff back from posting (only to have Billy share it later in some cases) I would prefer everyone to ask and answer questions freely. That is all I'm saying.
:asian:

[Billy Lear]

You understood exactly what I meant. Thanks for the supportive post!

On the other hand... I won't share anymore e-mails, your secret about being the first 10th Degree Brown Belt is safe with me. :D

[lonekimono]

the only thing i could say is WOW, i don't know what you did before 1984 ? but let me say it like this.
Doug i had this problem a long time ago and when i told Mr Parker about it he said to me " George some people have a cup and they want to fill it up with water but it has a whole in the bottom,but they are to closed mined to know to put there thumb in the whole " it took me a long time to know what that meant?
you know if what i said on martial talk is "overkill" than i will take my leave and bow out and let the YOU my kenpo brother have the floor,because i'm to old for this as you say mud.



yours in kenpo:asian:
a rose is a rose,or is it? you do the math

[cdhall]

Originally posted by lonekimono
the only thing i could say is WOW, i don't know what you did before 1984 ? but let me say it like this.
Doug i had this problem a long time ago and when i told Mr Parker about it he said to me " George some people have a cup and they want to fill it up with water but it has a whole in the bottom,but they are to closed mined to know to put there thumb in the whole " it took me a long time to know what that meant?
you know if what i said on martial talk is "overkill" than i will take my leave and bow out and let the YOU my kenpo brother have the floor,because i'm to old for this as you say mud.
yours in kenpo:asian:

Lonekimono,

I confess I don't know what this means and I was not sure what your original post meant. But I did Kenpo in 1984 and even though we had pictures of Mr. Parker and even though Mr. Parker taught my teacher's teacher, and even though we didn't wear Mr. Parker's patch... we were studying Mr. Parker's Kenpo. And when I asked whey we didn't wear his patch... no one replied very directly to me and some of the teachers of my classes said "I think he only teaches private lessons at his house" which I knew to be in "California."

I don't know if I want to say that you did "overkill." I will try to go back and read your posts again. I also don't think you were slinging any mud. Just that you were pointing out that you didn't want to "hear it" anymore. I don't mean to be disrespectful. Apparently Billy thinks I "caught his drift" pretty well. I'll go back and see if I can figure out what you were saying.

I like to see what everyone has to say and I hope they feel free to say it. Even if they say they don't like it. If you felt I was too hard on you, or disrespectful, then I apologize because all I meant was that you seemed to have missed the point of Billy's post.
:asian:

[lonekimono]

I don;t know whats going on here? but the only thing i did was replay to the post, doug it's ok i'm just like all the other people in here,a grain of sand on the beach,
but i wiil say i don't know what Mr Bill meant about a 10th brown?
i think the post should be TO WEAR THE CREST OR NOT TO WEAR THE CREST. as far as Mr Parker teaching at his home? or whatever
does it matter NOW? look at it doug you do kenpo,i do kenpo and everyone in here does kenpo( i hope).
if you really want to know all about what Mr Parker did while he was with us? you could ask KENPOJOE or better yet call ED JR.
doug like i said before i think there is to much going into this,put the power to better use because 100 years from now who is going care? like the GRASSROOT'S sang back in the 60's
LET'S LIVE FOR TODAY.
with much respect
yours in kenpo
:asian: :asian:
if you look at the sun make sure it's not there,because you might not look again

[Michael Billings]

Mr. Elmer,
Oss Sir:

I am not sure the 100-year perspective is the one to take necessarily. You are correct in that nobody will care about the specifics, but it is what we do today that shapes our children's tomorrow.

The other point I have, is that even if nobody cares in the future, I do care NOW. This is the Kenpo World I have to live, train, and teach in. Albeit my world, the intent of the thread was not to besmirch, ridicule, or sling any mud. Yes, I knew some of this would happen, and perhaps I would be the target. That is ok so long as there is a positive outcome, or if even a few students or teachers take a deep breath and say "OK, the politics basically stink", or they choose to pursue the high ground by actively helping resolve and mold a Kenpo Society that is less fragmented, hmm.... wrong word here, "fragmented" may be ok, but less adversarial and contentious than the one we have to live in now. Even if only one or two instructors "get", that talking behind peoples backs, inferring or actually stating the negatives, leads to more of the same behavior, not incrementally, but exponentially, then this thread is worth it to me.

Overall, you are right! It don't matter a hill of beans, but if each of us is a bean, it can matter ... we can make it matter.

I will make sure and pass your regards on to "The Professor" my next conversation. Sorry I forgot to mention that I did read and planned on doing it first opportunity.

:asian:
Respect to All,
-Michael

[RCastillo]

The "Real Enemy" is the idiot / animal in the street, not each other!

Can't stress it enough.............:asian:

Thank You.

[lonekimono]

ok you are right about the 100 year thing (lol) you know the bad thing about this is i'm on the east cost,it's time like this that i wish i can meet you guys and then we could get that kenpo camp together ( in a perfect world) but i do understand what you mean
oh mike watch out for how many beans you eat,i'm in New Jersey and the wind blows this way (lol)


yours in kenpo
keep the flag HIGH,only the flag,not the person :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by lonekimono
I don;t know whets going on here?
but i will say i don't know what Mr. Bill meant about a 10th brown?


George, George, come on calm down :) .......lol after all this IS a public forum (where people can chat about many topics.....LOL) now don't come in and condemn these young guys for talking about Kenpo soup to nuts......... lol...... we have a variety of topics here.... (some I like some I don't) so if you come across one that is "not to your liking.... well hey chill .... have a glass of milk with me and an Oreo. We can watch and be entertained.:rofl:
But don't get upset. This is just the modern "venting" tool. lol


Originally posted by lonekimono
If you really want to know all about what Mr. Parker did while he was with us? you could ask KENPOJOE


Wait a minute..... Who died and left "Kenpo:eek:Joe" the Ed Parker spokesperson? grumble....... grumble.... :confused:


Originally posted by lonekimono
Doug, like i said before I think there is to much going into this,put the power to better use because 100 years from now who is going care? LET'S LIVE FOR TODAY. with much respect
yours in kenpo :asian


You are right ......no one will care 100 years from now.... but at least we can forge and keep alive much "positive material" that is also posted here. (Yin and Yang George.....LOL) got to take the good with the bad sometimes...

:asian:

ps we gotta get you a spell checker :rofl: or slower fingers.... :D

[cdhall]

I wanted to say somewhere that I still have not deciphered lonekimono's posts, but I think Mr. C. may have a handle on what got lonekimono's attention.

But more importantly, I want to coing a new phrase that struck me earlier.

I'm just a weed in the Kenpo jungle!

Maybe the first 10th Brown Weed, but still just a weed.
:rofl:

I love that phrase, so it is mine. Copyright 2003, C. Douglas Hall.
:soapbox:

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
George, George, come on calm down :) .......lol after all this IS a public forum (where people can chat about many topics.....LOL) now don't come in and condemn these young guys for talking about Kenpo soup to nuts......... lol...... we have a variety of topics here.... (some I like some I don't) so if you come across one that is "not to your liking.... well hey chill .... have a glass of milk with me and an Oreo. We can watch and be entertained.:rofl:
But don't get upset. This is just the modern "venting" tool. lol



Wait a minute..... Who died and left "Kenpo:eek:Joe" the Ed Parker spokesperson? grumble....... grumble.... :confused:



You are right ......no one will care 100 years from now.... but at least we can forge and keep alive much "positive material" that is also posted here. (Yin and Yang George.....LOL) got to take the good with the bad sometimes...

:asian:

ps we gotta get you a spell checker :rofl: or slower fingers.... :D

Dear Dennis,
First things first! how come you've never offered me a glass of milk and an oreo? I like milk and cookies and oreos are one of my favs! Are you predjudiced against me because you know that I like oreos too? ROFLMAO!!!
:rofl:
Second of all, The only person who died was Mr. Parker more than 12 years ago and he certainly didn't make me the Parker spokesman! I'm just a guy who trained in the system and got to meet Mr. Parker on several occasions and was fortunate enough to be able to ask him questions on several occasions over the years. I followed him around like a groupie to amost all his seminars over the last 7 years of his life. I was going to purchase the first "Ed Parker Karate Studio" franchises in new England in 1985, but due to my backers "backing out", that did not occur. I also was a "pain in the ...." because I would "haunt" mr parker about the smallest detail of how HE Himself did certain things and got some "insight" out of it! Then, I would cross reference it with his written materials to confirm the fact and see where he first mentioned it in print. Dennis, you no like me no more??? :waah:
Dennis is just miffed because someone asked me AND Dennis a question on the same line in Kenpo "Q&A" (major sacrilige in kenpo forums]
I know george personally and I was just at his home this week after attending and teaching at the WCAF Kenpo camp and i am the "Technical Advisor" for the American Chinese Kenpo Karate System [ACKKS] so, that's why i got mentioned by him.
Please take George's posts as a good spirited joke and laugh at all the "Kenpolitics" (TM) that go on in the art!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Dennis, you no like me no more??? :waah:
BEGOOD,KENPOJOE


LOL, no no no....... hee hee:rofl:

Just giving 'Ole Georgie a hard time... that's all

:rofl:

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
LOL, no no no....... hee hee:rofl:

Just giving 'Ole Georgie a hard time... that's all

:rofl:

:::sniffling::: ok, just checking!
:D
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
"Kenpolitics" (TM) that go on in the art!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

You didn't really trademark this term did you? :confused:

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Billy Lear
You didn't really trademark this term did you? :confused:
Hi Billy!
Just messing with you!
But, I DID create and coin that term!!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

KENPOLITICS: WHEN YOU ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY HAVE TO ARGUE ABOUT NOTHING IN PARTICULAR! :rofl:

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Hi Billy!
Just messing with you!
But, I DID create and coin that term!!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

KENPOLITICS: WHEN YOU ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY HAVE TO ARGUE ABOUT NOTHING IN PARTICULAR! :rofl:

No problem brudda...

[Rob_Broad]

I thought that first 10th degree brown belt was going to me. I have been putting my pennies aside all week. Does that mean doug got to wear the pink speedo too?

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad
I thought that first 10th degree brown belt was going to me. I have been putting my pennies aside all week. Does that mean doug got to wear the pink speedo too?

You know, the 10th Brown thing is pretty serious. We don't just give info away, you will have to sign up with Billy or me before we can divulge any supersecret stuff like the decoder ring or show you the handshake.
:rofl:

[Billy Lear]

Originally posted by cdhall
You know, the 10th Brown thing is pretty serious. We don't just give info away, you will have to sign up with Billy or me before we can divulge any supersecret stuff like the decoder ring or show you the handshake.
:rofl:

And that's just the start of it... sheesh... Keep your mouth shut about our plan to take over the world Doug... We don't want that getting out either. ;)

[lonekimono]

Hi Dennis you know i LOVE you like a kenpo bother(lol)
but i hate eating that stuff the black gets in your teeth.
anyway i just got back from K-MART with the wife and she brought
me this cool shirt, it has black stripes and white stripes,so i'll put it on and sit back and watch whats going on. LOL
oh! i'm sorry Dennis i did forget to put your name in here also when it came to MR PARKER .:uhohh: :uhohh: :uhohh:

yours in kenpo
i like dreaming cause dreaming will make you fly

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by cdhall
...you will have to sign up with Billy or me before we can divulge any supersecret stuff like the decoder ring or show you the handshake.

Man, I always miss out on the cool stuff.:o

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Billy Lear
The longer you shovel crap you start to smell like it. If you want to sling B.S. around at every one, and cause fights... then that is what you'll be famous for. If you want to be constructive ...


If that is the case, then why at several AKSC meetings when we were ALL disussing .........

ahhhhhhhh never mind.

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
If that is the case, then why at several AKSC meetings when we were ALL disussing .........

ahhhhhhhh never mind.

:asian:

I knew it. You guys were assasinating me again!:mad:

[Michael Billings]

... just so long as you don't say I was inferring what was talked about at any meeting was a load-o-stuff.

Ricardo, I thought you were used to being popular?

OK, so now I am off topic. Seriously, how do you perceive the upcoming reorganization of the IKKA and "Homecoming" in relation to the topic of this thread? (just stirring the pot)

Oss,
-Michael

[lonekimono]

Hey mile don't use salt, i can't have salt:mad:
but keep that pot going:rofl:

[lonekimono]

sorry thats mike:rolleyes:

[KENPOJOE]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... just so long as you don't say I was inferring what was talked about at any meeting was a load-o-stuff.

Ricardo, I thought you were used to being popular?

OK, so now I am off topic. Seriously, how do you perceive the upcoming reorganization of the IKKA and "Homecoming" in relation to the topic of this thread? (just stirring the pot)

Oss,
-Michael

This is actually my second response but i hit the wrong button and deleted the first answer:vu: so here we go again!

As a long standing member of the IKKA, I am all in all happy with the new direction the IKKA is heading in regards to reorganization and the more "open mindedness" that is fortold towards membership in other kenpo organizations as well as ideas that will bring the IKKA proudly into the 21st century!
Furthermore, I am looking forward to the upcoming "homecoming" at the Pasadena Studio with many of the "old guard" that created much of the history of that legendary location. It's a great opportunity for all members of the multitude of the kenpo organizations members to see many of the top instructors and heads of those different groups to see many of the people that they had only read or heard about and get on the floor with them and study from them! I've seen many individuals not attend or avoid/boycott certain events in the past to their own detriment when those event were never held again,when certain individuals who were there succumbed to the grim reaper,never to teach again...
I always like to quote the rock opera, "Jesus Christ,Superstar" where Jesus says to his apostles "Move while you still see me, because you'll be so sorry when i'm gone."
So, let us put the "Kenpolitics"(TM) and enjoy this rare opportunity!
:::GETTING OFF MY SOAPBX NOW:soapbox:
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... just so long as you don't say I was inferring what was talked about at any meeting was a load-o-stuff.

Ricardo, I thought you were used to being popular?

OK, so now I am off topic. Seriously, how do you perceive the upcoming reorganization of the IKKA and "Homecoming" in relation to the topic of this thread? (just stirring the pot)

Oss,
-Michael

I hope it works, but there is scarce info on the IKKA site except a flier for the Pasadena Homecoming and an IKC flier for 2004.
:ubercool:

They need a PR guy or section or a News page with less broken graphics on it.
http://www.ikka.us/IKC/IKCEvents.htm

I don't know what else is going on, but it looks like "almost" everyone who was at Mr. Duffy's camp in 1994 will be in Pasadena this summer.
http://www.akfkenpo.com/homecoming.htm

I'd like to go myself but I need to sell a lot of Legal Plans (shameless plug for the School Management Sponsor) before I can go. :(

[Michael Billings]

I love that term. I have heard it called a lot of things, most of them you would hesitate to say in polite society, but this just caught me at the right time in the right way.

"Kenpolitics" (TM) may not be able to be put aside, although it is a nice thought. I understand part of the event is to explore the possibility of including some of the attendees as members and representatives for the new IKKA. Lots has changed in the decade since everyone resigned ... well not everyone, but lots of Regional Directors and members quit circa 1992-1994, and new Associations and ranks never seen are out here now. We can always hope for the best and expect the worst.

I think the event will be great - the outcome for the Association, well, I can only hope for the best. It would go a long way toward addressing and remedying the very issues that prompted me to start this post. AND IT IS AN ANSWER, or at least an attempt to answer, a problem - rather than point out why it is so hopeless to try to get back together, or why one Association or instructor is better than another, etc. I truly do hope for the best and hope everyone is open to trying to bring some unity back to American Kenpo.

Although lots of good has come from the "Scattering," The Journey was a starting point for Kenpoists everywhere to identify with a core group of Seniors. It certainly did not include everyone, but maybe it opened the door for some people to get back together. They are coming home now, and possibly there can be a reintegration to some extent. We can only wait and see what is offered to whom, and whether they will accept in their hearts, and try for a more united KenpoPlanet.

Oss,
-Michael

[cdhall]

This is a Tangent but I think it may fit in here.

As I did the Homecoming Video 7 years before The Journey was published I have been wondering why these guys don't get together more often.

So here is are my questions.

How many Black Belts are there on Earth?
How many of these guys are Black Belts in EPAK and trace their lineage back to SGM Parker?

If we took all the EPAK Black Belt on Earth and all the "other" Black Belts on Earth and lined the 2 groups up across from each other what would happen?

If such a "gathering" took place, how many EPAK people would "cross the line" to go put someone in their Rolodex and how many would turn to their right or left and make some plans to get together or start talking about Kenpo and Mr. Parker?

Or would that just cause them to break up again?

It just seems to me that it is hard enough to find an EPAK School and then when you do find one it doesn't take long to see that several of them don't seem to want to mix with any others. What's up with that?

How hard is it to study Mr. Parker's system? Who is helping and who is not? It may be more accurate to ask "Who is trying and who is not?"

If I just learned about Mr. Parker today and went out to go find a studio to study in based on what I know now it would take me a year or more of research to find one that taught "his system" as it is presented in Book 5 (since this would be the only real way to find out what to look for) and I would have at least half a dozen people telling me that one Kenpo studio or another is either not good or does not teach the system properly and I might end up studying some other art that "has grappling, weapons, and chi/energy training." Is this what Mr. Parker wanted to happen?
:(

[lonekimono]

doug you make sense and i agree, what was it that MR PARKER
said
" the mine is like a paraehute, it works best when it's open":asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by lonekimono
What was it that MR PARKER said " the mine is like a paraehute, it works best when it's open":asian:


What he didn't say was.... "You must also have it strapped on for it to work for you".

:asian:

:rofl: dude, we gotta get you a spell checker! New Jersey is not an award winning scholastic system........ :rofl:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
What he didn't say was.... "You must also have it strapped on for it to work for you".

:asian:

:rofl: dude, we gotta get you a spell checker! New Jersey is not an award winning scholastic system........ :rofl:

Good, at least you're not picking on Texas anymore!;)

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
What he didn't say was.... "You must also have it strapped on for it to work for you".

:asian:

Thanks George. Mr. C. makes a good point though so I wonder what was in the water when Mr. Parker taught so many private lessons that made everyone think that they were the only ones who got the goods?

Mr. Parker, Jr. has a good perspective on this. He says he'd see a guy leave the house after his lesson and his dad may or may not roll his eyes or something but the guy would think he was "it" a lot of times and then someone that guy never met would come in for a lesson right after him and now these guys are all arguing about who studied with Mr. Parker and who learned what but all they really know for sure is that Mr. Parker taught private lessons in his house, at the airport, in the kitchen, and God only knows where else and he did it All Over the World. Who knows what he taught who? Did he "tailor" his lessons to his student's "gifts?" Does that sound like a Kenpo idea...?

I don't get any of that KenpoliticsTM (Joe Rebelo I believe) stuff. If someone shows me something that does not violate a concept or principle then I say it is "right" and that if they can defend themselves using the Gaseous state and not violate a principle, then they know Kenpo. I've seen people who can do this more or less better than others but none of these guys are "wrong."

I just want to learn as much Kenpo as I can the way Mr. Parker put it out there so I can be assured of building from a solid foundation. I've also seen enough people to know that I am NOT Ever going to be one of the elite Kenpoists on Earth so that is not my goal either. I'll probably never know what or how Mr. Speakman does some of his stuff and I've heard that Mr. Liles is incredible and of course Mr. Trejo was unmatched during his competitive era. I think I can fend off an attacker or 3 pretty well (as long as it is not one of these guys!) and I can teach this stuff and maybe produce some students better than I am but all I want is the proper Kenpo Tools (thanks Mr. C.) to work with so I know I can get the job done.

Telling me that someone is not doing it right does not help me. As I told someone once, this is Kenpo, a Martial Art, not a Philosophy class, so get on the mat and prove it. That is where I check my facts. Does it work or not?

Thanks George. I don't know if this relates to your post, I'm probably just "venting" and I mean nothing ill toward you whatever. Thanks for the compliment. I think you are one of those guys that could show me a lot as well.
:asian:

[lonekimono]

hey DENNIS OK I SPELLED mind wrong :mad:
SORRY,SORRY ,SORRY:eek: :eek: :eek:
what can i say:rofl:
come out you can stay with me at my home wait or is that hom?
no wait i know it's homie, watt ever no wait it's whatever well you know what i mean:D

[Brother John]

To remain a student of Kenpo you always keep learning, following Mr. Parker's example to the end. He used to say that every day he learned one thing new about Kenpo. When you tout yourself as a Grandmaster, you cease being a student

How in the world do you arive at this conclusion?? A Grandmaster ceases being a student??? why's that? Mr. Parker was the Senior Grandmaster, but was a student to the day he died.

I don't mean to sound offensive, but I just don't see the logic trail leading to your conclusion Mr. Billings.

Your Brother
John

PS: ALSO, WHO agreed to never don a tenth. Where/When was this? What purpose does this serve? Honoring & remembering our Dear founder has nothing to do with making the number of stripes on his belt sacrosanct.
Besides, it's his title of SENIOR GrandMaster that sets him aside as the founder right? Why is more than that needed ?

[Michael Billings]

I agree Mr. Elmer.

Doug, that is a lot of the attitude that I see as the problem in Kenpo now. It is accurate, and realistic unfortunaty. But can't we change it? Is that the KenpoWorld you want to live in, or have your kid's live in, should they follow in your footsteps?

We can all stand back and throw tomatoes, we can all take pot shots at what does not work and why. But, can we all challenge ourselves to be part of a solution? I can only hope.

The old joke "How many Kenpo Black Belts does it take to change a lightbulb? Answer: 100; one to change the light bulb and 99 to say "that's not the way Mr. Parker showed me" is the reality of our Kenpo World right now. But some Seniors, New Seniors, and students are trying to make it better. There are lots of issues now contributing to "the Scattering" (to borrow a phrase from Frank Herbert), including new Associations, different requirements for belts, different techniques, lack of consistancy in rank proficiency, ego's, belts, money, etc. We all know the problems, so what is the answer? That is what I am looking for Doug. You are either part of the answer or part of the problem. CHOOSE!!!!

Oss,
-Michael
(P.S. - Doug, I hope it is obvious that this post was not directed at you personally. It was not. You merely provided the impetus and forum for my expressing yet another of my unpopular positions.)

[Brother John]

NICE quote from a Great Author!

DUNE rules!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your Brother
John

[Michael Billings]

John,

Just got your PM, back with you in a minute. The 10th decision was made at the Pasadena seminar following Mr. Parker's death. It was also when the title was adopted. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I was there, but it was 12 years ago.

I thought this was reaffirmed when the AKSC was formed and Mr. LaBounty and Kelly were bumped up to 9th. Which they still are today, out of respect for SGM Parker.

No sweat, I know Mr. Parker learned something every day about his Kenpo, and never ever stopped. He was increadable. Nope, I just object to the poitics of who, how, why, 10ths are grown and promoted. This is not a personal judgment regarding who deserve the 10th, but rather what a mess it causes at times and with who. See the thread a little earlier on.

Glad you are here John, and never a problem with disagreements, well maybe sometimes ... but I get over it and admit I am wrong.

Oss,
-Michael

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Brother John
How in the world do you arive at this conclusion?? A Grandmaster ceases being a student??? why's that? Mr. Parker was the Senior Grandmaster, but was a student to the day he died.
I don't mean to sound offensive, but I just don't see the logic trail leading to your conclusion Mr. Billings.

Your Brother, John


Ya' know for a brown belt you're pretty smart! LOL

What I think Mr. Billings was referring to was that many of "today's Grandmasters" "seem" to cease being a student, since they have the coveted 2 bars.


Originally posted by Brother John
Besides, it's his title of "SENIOR" GrandMaster that sets him aside as the founder right?


Wrong, Let's just say it "SHOULD BE AS YOU SAY". I agree wholeheartedly. But if you look close........ the title of "Senior" Grandmaster is being used by several. In my opinion (and yours) it should be ONLY for Mr. Parker, but you need to tell those that are using it that they shouldn't (somehow you and I as well as many others got that message but it obviously missed others somehow?:().

:asian:

[lonekimono]

Thank you doug, you know something? i never stop learning
and as Mr C ( my buddy Dennis) :D said i have the chute on all the time and i make sure I PUT IT ON.
but doug i want to say one thing NEVER sell yourself short
it will not matter who it is on the street when you have to defend yourself.
so if it's someone like Frank, jeff,or BoB why would that matter
is it because you know what they can do? yes it is
i'm going tell you like i tell my students",if you have to then it's done"
there is no time to think about it.
and the other thing is when it dout,don't ( did i spell that right?):asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
(P.S. - Doug, I hope it is obvious that this post was not directed at you personally. It was not. You merely provided the impetus and forum for my expressing yet another of my unpopular positions.)

Sir,

I must have missed something. I was not offended by you or anything and I think you make excellent points. One of the restaurant managers I worked for said the same thing about being part of the solution.

But I think I was part of a solution with the video I did (no, I'm not running for office and don't send any money or ask to join me or anything :) ) but besides that, I think all the flavors of Kenpo are just someone showing how they tailored the art to themselves. So as long as someone is not insisting that they know the "only way" I think there can be hundreds of correct ways to do "Delayed Sword" for example depending on whether you are fighting your Evil Identical Twin or Hulk Hogan or a Lollypop Guild member etc.
:)

I would have to know what exactly the problem is before I proposed a solution. If it is the problem I pointed out above about choosing a Kenpo school I think the solution is obvious:

1. Codify a Base for American Kenpo that everyone can refer to (including the underlying Principles and Concepts) which I think Mr. Parker did.
2. Admit that What If's allow for a near infinite number of ways to modify said Base, which I think Mr. Parker said.
3. Admit that 1. and 2. above are the case and that there is no One Way to do something. This is clearly contradicted by Mr. Parker's tailoring concept in my opinion.
4. Agree that no one exists who knows everything Mr. Parker knew and can do what Mr. Parker did or get together and tell the rest of us who this is.
5. Reserve the title of SGM for Mr. Parker and maybe even outline some requirements for promotion to 5th-10th. I think Mr. Parker said in the Blue Belt manual that there could be any number of 10ths.
6. Maybe make some attempt to weed out the obvious Charlatans defaming EPAK.
7. Do unto to others.... as I think some Jewish guy said before he was hung out to dry 2000 years ago. Someone who I also think Mr. Parker held in high regard.

I think Mr. Parker showed everyone what to do...
:asian:

[Michael Billings]

If only the world were a simple place, not complex, sophisticated to the point of simplicity.

I think 1 - 5 of your posts were done. I can only wish 6 was. And we should all live #7.

That is all for tonight guys,
Respect to All,
Oss,
-Michael

[lonekimono]

you sure know how to HURT a guy:(

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Wrong, Let's just say it "SHOULD BE AS YOU SAY". I agree wholeheartedly. But if you look close........ the title of "Senior" Grandmaster is being used by several. In my opinion (and yours) it should be ONLY for Mr. Parker, but you need to tell those that are using it that they shouldn't (somehow you and I as well as many others got that message but it obviously missed others somehow?:().

:asian:

I frequently let others know about the SGM title being reserved for Mr. Parker and have taken quite a bit of heat for it, nevertheless, I will continue to do so.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[lonekimono]

Hello Clyde Been waiting for you to say hi,:p
it's been a long time since we talked it's good to heard from you;)
and unlike what Dennis said i DO know how to spell lol
but living in New Jersey might have something to do with ( u think):D talk to you soon

[Brother John]

Ya' know for a brown belt you're pretty smart! LOL

:asian:
Thank you Mr. Conaster.
A fine compliment from you.

Your Brother
John

PS: In your years of experience do you find most Browns to be dunderheads???

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Brother John
In your years of experience do you find most Browns to be dunderheads?


LOL........ NO, not the ones that have a strong lineage. In fact, some browns have more horse sense than many black belts.....lol.

:asian:

[cdhall]

I really like Mr. C.

He's pretty sharp.

;)

[roryneil]

I only see all this division when I read posts here on the internet. But I remember people coming to Mr. Duffy's school and camp and I saw nothing but brotherhood. I remember going out to dinner with Mr. Burks and more recently Mr. Speakman after a seminar. I remember hearing all the great stories from Mr. C. I remember training with Mr. Billings (he probably doesn't remember but he was at Mr. Duffy's school polishing up for 2nd Black I believe). I love going to camp and meeting all these other students of Kenpo. I don't ever meet another Kenpo student/instructor and the first thing to ask is "What is your Association?". I generally see nothing but brotherhood when I come here to Martialtalk. Maybe I just wear rose colored glasses. If I'm wrong I still prefer it that way.

[Michael Billings]

... I just wish mine had not gotten run over when they fell off the Harley.



Originally posted by royneil:
I generally see nothing but brotherhood when I come here to Martialtalk. Maybe I just wear rose colored glasses. If I'm wrong I still prefer it that way.
We would ALL prefer it that way.

Oss,
-Michael

[cdhall]

Originally posted by roryneil
I only see all this division when I read posts here on the internet.

I confess I don't get out much but I don't recall meeting anyone in person who was anything but very nice.

And I made several friends selling out the Homecoming Video so I really have not met any KenpozosTM (Hey, if Joe can do it, I can too. Kenpo+Bozo=Kenpozo).
:D

I have met some people who were clueless but I'll save that. Met one yesterday.
:asian: