Breaking contact if grappled

[Deaf Smith]

Guys,

If you are in a fight and a grappler lunges at you, connects, and both of you start to go to the ground. How would you force the grappler off you and break contact so you could get back up (and get up FAST.) I don't mean get him in a hold, just get him off you asap before HE gets started on getting you in a hold.

Thanks,

Deaf

[Blindside]

Is this a tackle? Single leg? Double Leg?

And are you asking about how to do this BEFORE you hit the ground? You say "start to go to the ground" but you also say "get back up."

If you are "starting to go to the ground" he already has hold of some kind, unless he just bumped you and you are both falling over. For a good answer, you will need a pretty specific question, this one is very very general.

[exile]

Is this a tackle? Single leg? Double Leg?

And are you asking about how to do this BEFORE you hit the ground? You say "start to go to the ground" but you also say "get back up."

If you are "starting to go to the ground" he already has hold of some kind, unless he just bumped you and you are both falling over. For a good answer, you will need a pretty specific question, this one is very very general.

Yeah—I think we need a few detailed scenarios here, Deaf. My own first instinct would be an attack on his eyes or on his neck vertebra, but it all depends on just what he's trying to do...

[jarrod]

speaking very generally:

push his face away & off center. your other (we'll say right hand) posts on the floor, & you slide your right foot towards that hand so you can get up while retreating. this assumes that he hasn't established a position or a pin on you, & that extending your arm isn't making you too vulnerable to a lock.

these are nessecarily very vague, general instructions.

jf

[Aikicomp]

Guys,

If you are in a fight and a grappler lunges at you, connects, and both of you start to go to the ground. How would you force the grappler off you and break contact so you could get back up (and get up FAST.) I don't mean get him in a hold, just get him off you asap before HE gets started on getting you in a hold.

Thanks,

Deaf

As said before VERY vague indeed however I will offer a solution:

From your desciption of events it seems that he has a hold on you and you are going to get taken down, if this is the case and you have no Judo or BJJ or wrestling back round......it's only a matter of time............. your done, all you can do is hope he or she (yes, I said she, I have girls who have beat men with their Judo skills) doesn't hurt you too bad so you can get some sort of grappling training.

Seriously, People with Judo, BJJ, wrestling, grappling experience are very skilled and if they get a hold on you it's very difficult to get out of it, even with proper training..... without proper training your chances of victory are very slim.

Yours in Budo
Michael

[Sandstorm]

Generally....


.....I'd sprawl. Keep your hips tight and put pressure on the back of their head, or grab their head and twistin a downward motion to the left or right. If he's in a full clinch, drive elbows into the colar area and push away. Keep moving but nothing flamboyant. Keep movement minimal and consistant, but also keep it random so he can't find your rhythm for his sweep/takedown.

This is a very general question and these are a miniscule selection of basic answers. I hope they help

Kind regards
John

[Andrew Green]

Guys,

If you are in a fight and a grappler lunges at you, connects, and both of you start to go to the ground. How would you force the grappler off you and break contact so you could get back up (and get up FAST.) I don't mean get him in a hold, just get him off you asap before HE gets started on getting you in a hold.

Thanks,

Deaf


No offence, but your approach to the puzzle is completely wrong.

If you want to learn to deal with wrestling, you need to incorporate wrestling, and people that no how to wrestle into your training. Otherwise what you end up doing will be ineffective and likely not work against someone that actually has those skills.

Flip it around, suppose a wrestler with no striking experience asked you, "If a kickboxer tried to hit me, what should I do?" It's a very broad question, and not one that can be answered. If you give them something they go back and try to mimic kickboxing techniques and defend against them. But the techniques they are using, and as a result training against are extremely poor and the counters would fail against a person with fairly limited kickboxing.

Standing up when you have a superior wrestler on top of you is very difficult. If you watch some pro fights you should notice one trend, the guys that are able to get back up fairly consistantly when taken down are also very accomplished wrestlers.

[Himura Kenshin]

well yeah, but on the other hand you don't want to play his game.

There are always vunerable targets, the temple, the carteriod (sp?) artery in the neck, the solar plexas,inside of the theigh (sp again? I'm awful at this) and everyone's favorite the groin. Strike these targets while being grappled, but don't just go for one, go for multiple targets high and low.

[MJS]

Guys,

If you are in a fight and a grappler lunges at you, connects, and both of you start to go to the ground. How would you force the grappler off you and break contact so you could get back up (and get up FAST.) I don't mean get him in a hold, just get him off you asap before HE gets started on getting you in a hold.

Thanks,

Deaf

My suggestion...have grappling in your toolbox. IMHO, if you really want to defend against something, you need to understand what it is you're trying to defend against.

I think to better answer your question, we need to know how the grappler is connecting with you.

[just2kicku]

In a fight if you're not a grappler I would think you don't want to play his game.
I'm a big guy(6'4" 250lbs) and I would do whatever it takes not to go to the ground. There's usually something you can reach. Whether it be raining elbows to his spine, gouging an eye( and I mean getting your finger in there and trying to rip it out) grabbing hold of his junk and squeezing till it pops, or grabbing his throat and squeezing till he runs out of air. There's always something. If your close to him there's always biting. Popping an ear drum, but I wouldn't try to grapple with him

[bowser666]

Let's make some assumptions here, chances are you are not going to be tackled by a BJJ black belt in a random street encounter. Second, if it is a street encounter then anything goes. If you are asking if it is Joe Tough Guy with no MA training and tackles you to the ground then how do you get out of it ?

Sounds like there are lots of assumptions being made that the person is going to be trained in some ground fighting art. Chances of that are slim actually. I would suggest taking it from there.


My suggestion would be to use reasonable force. If you feel your life is in danger than use lethal force. You have to make that judgement.

[thetruth]

well yeah, but on the other hand you don't want to play his game.

There are always vunerable targets, the temple, the carteriod (sp?) artery in the neck, the solar plexas,inside of the theigh (sp again? I'm awful at this) and everyone's favorite the groin. Strike these targets while being grappled, but don't just go for one, go for multiple targets high and low.

If you didn't sprawl and are on the ground you are in troubled if they are skilled. It's easy to say go for the eyes or the groin but when you do you are putting your limbs at risk by reaching for these targets and as soon as you do chances are you will be caught in a lock of some sort. You would have to be extremely lucky to have this work.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

[Deaf Smith]

Guys,

Sorry if it was vauge.

Say you are being tackled. They might be going for your legs or hips. And say they made contact and you are falling with them but he does not yet have a solid hold.

The idea is, once they dive for you and make contact, how to keep them from getting in. And yes, break contact with them.

Eye gouge? Kick them off you. Windpipe grab? Hair grab?

Alot of people are not strong enough to grapple against a fit young man who knows. So they need a strategy to stop the other guy from getting them into a lock and get off the ground.

Thanks,

Deaf

[LuckyKBoxer]

Guys,

If you are in a fight and a grappler lunges at you, connects, and both of you start to go to the ground. How would you force the grappler off you and break contact so you could get back up (and get up FAST.) I don't mean get him in a hold, just get him off you asap before HE gets started on getting you in a hold.

Thanks,

Deaf

As someone who has been a stand up fighter for almost 2 decades, with 16 years being spent in Kenpo I was curious how I would fare against the grapplers, other then the ones I had faced already. I took some BJJ classes to test myself and fell in love with the SPORT aspect of BJJ.
Please note that SPORT is capitalized for a reason. I feel that regardless of who is coming at me, the weapons I was taught in kenpo are more then adequate to deal with them. Finger strikes, soft tissue attacks, pinches small joint manipulation, etc.
Now I have been training for going on 4 years and am a purple belt in BJJ, and I advocate it to any stand up artist, but I think the vast majority of grapplers, even the higher level grapplers are simply studying a sport version of the art, they train constantly for the RULES, and find a hard time compensating for the lack of them in a street fight. That being said a grappler intent on hurting you can probably move past a fairly major eye injury or groin shot, or throat shot or broken finger and try to apply a submission, or ground and pound. Which is a big reason I advocate training on the ground for any stand up artist. I personally feel that a combination of environmental awareness, a good sprawl, and training in the ground game will give a stand up fighter all the tools he needs to avoid going to the ground to begin with, and the dirty self defense skills will help get off the ground if it happens.

[searcher]

I love the idea of an eye gouge, if life and limb hang in the balance. You also have the option of popping an eardrum or you could pull the ear off(yes it is that easy).


I am fairly confident on the ground, but I like to dictate when the fight goes to the ground. For this reason, I work with my students who are also high school wrestlers on sprawling and avoiding the takedown. If you don't have one or two of them around, I suggest you seek out a wrestling program to start working with.

[geezer]

Alot of people are not strong enough to grapple against a fit young man who knows. So they need a strategy to stop the other guy from getting them into a lock and get off the ground.

Deaf

There are a lot of "anti-grappling" approaches that have been developed to help the stand-up fighter deal with a grappler and not have to play his game. But, if that's the way you want to play it, you better train those techniques with some decent grapplers or you'll never know if they'll work.

Personally, I've seen some decent "anti-grappling" techniques, but learning basic BJJ is high on my "to-do" list. My older brother was a state champion wrestler, and years of getting whaled on by him showed me that when a good grappler has you off balance, it's awful hard to land good punches. In fact I learned that after a certain point, it was usually better to go to the ground on purpose than to struggle to stay upright and then get slammed down. Now I'm in my mid fifties, and grappling may not seem like the safest art to get involved in, but it's got to be better than the alternative--being totally ignorant of how to deal with it!

[MJS]

Guys,

Sorry if it was vauge.

Say you are being tackled. They might be going for your legs or hips. And say they made contact and you are falling with them but he does not yet have a solid hold.

The idea is, once they dive for you and make contact, how to keep them from getting in. And yes, break contact with them.

Eye gouge? Kick them off you. Windpipe grab? Hair grab?

Alot of people are not strong enough to grapple against a fit young man who knows. So they need a strategy to stop the other guy from getting them into a lock and get off the ground.

Thanks,

Deaf

Many people will say go for the eyes, groin, etc., and thats all fine, however, IMO, I feel that if someone only has those tools to rely on, they're going to be in trouble, if those tools fail. That is why I'm an advocate of back up plans. If A doesn't work, go to B. If that doesn't work, then C, etc., etc.

To expand on the question though...my first thought would be to say sprawl. If that is successful, then from that position, you should be able to fire off some knees and possibly a kick. If that fails, and you end up going to the ground, then I would say do your best to recover and get into the best position possible. What do I mean by this? If the guy starts to mount you, do your best to not let him get too high up on you, otherwise, if he makes it up under your arms, it'll be twice and hard to bridge him off.

If you can get him into guard, then do so. From there, you should be able to control him somewhat.

I know from past threads, some feel that going to the ground is akin to having to look for a submission. Not the case at all. That won't be on the top of my list...getting back up will be. Of course, if a sub. presents itself and it'll aid in my escape, of course I'd take it. :)

[Andy Moynihan]

Here's the deal.

If you are on the ground, and it turns out the person has ground skills, and you try to play their game, you're toast unless yours are better.

Even on those occasions when they ARE better, the amount of time involved in playing choke chess reckons without the possibility of his having friends who will walk up and kick your brains out, or him discovering your weapons, or simply him getting lucky by having more time to fight you.

This isn't to say they don't have their place: if a relative or friend has had too many to drink and decides to take on the world, you have a way to contain them until they lose interest or see reason.

Where strictly self defense scenarios are concerned, you will be much better off if you keep it simpler.

Let's say you're in someone's mount, you haven't put your guard round them in time.( that's usually how it goes even amongst untrained people, it's a common way to end up so we'll use it as the main example).

at this point, anytime you extend an arm towards them to try anything, you run the risk of an arm lock.

Keep your arms too tight to your body too long to ward off strikes and do nothing else, you run the risk of a choke.

Trying to turn one way or another to avoid blows, he may be sensitive enough to allow this and now without intending to or realizing it, you've given them your back and are now at risk for a rear naked choke which is an absolute ***** to escape from once sunk in.

On the street, I don't think it wise to assume his sporting habits are ingrained and you can trick him into releasing by tapping out( but it HAS happened so give it a shot if you feel there's time or a chance to).

But here's the thing, is, in order for him to effect anything HE wants to do, he first much reach his hands toward you.

when this happens, grab hold of a finger/thumb before he can close his grip, and snap it back till it comes off.

He'll let go.

[Andrew Green]

easy as that then? Just grab a finger?

Sorry Andy, but it won't work. When someone is mounted on you, and pounding your head into the ground, grabbing at fingers is a very bad idea.

I agree with the "don't play the other guys game" idea, but it doesn't always work like that. If you are mounted, you are playing that game. If you want to learn how to get out the best place to look is at what the people that end up in that position every time they train do, they do it for a reason.

There is no easy way out, you are in trouble if you are mounted by a superior grappler.

But suggesting you should not do any of the things other grapplers do to get out is like suggesting that if you are in a sword fight with a swordsman you should drop the your sword and try to punch him, otherwise you are "playing his game". You already are, and chances are you will lose at that point, but don't throw out what is your best shot, even if it is a long shot given the skill difference for something with even less of a chance.

[Andy Moynihan]

easy as that then? Just grab a finger?

Sorry Andy, but it won't work. When someone is mounted on you, and pounding your head into the ground, grabbing at fingers is a very bad idea.

I agree with the "don't play the other guys game" idea, but it doesn't always work like that. If you are mounted, you are playing that game. If you want to learn how to get out the best place to look is at what the people that end up in that position every time they train do, they do it for a reason.

There is no easy way out, you are in trouble if you are mounted by a superior grappler.

But suggesting you should not do any of the things other grapplers do to get out is like suggesting that if you are in a sword fight with a swordsman you should drop the your sword and try to punch him, otherwise you are "playing his game". You already are, and chances are you will lose at that point, but don't throw out what is your best shot, even if it is a long shot given the skill difference for something with even less of a chance.

Boy, I wish I would've known that when I got mounted and got him off me with a finger lock into a wrist lock and rolled out.

Granted, this wasn't in the street for blood, and granted I didn't actually break his thumb, and granted he was no BJJ black belt, but to say out right it "won't work" is kind of on par with saying outright "Don't do what grapplers do"( which, BTW, I agree with, that learning some is a very good idea) is it not?

[Sandstorm]

Guys,

Sorry if it was vauge.

Say you are being tackled. They might be going for your legs or hips. And say they made contact and you are falling with them but he does not yet have a solid hold.

The idea is, once they dive for you and make contact, how to keep them from getting in. And yes, break contact with them.

Eye gouge? Kick them off you. Windpipe grab? Hair grab?

Alot of people are not strong enough to grapple against a fit young man who knows. So they need a strategy to stop the other guy from getting them into a lock and get off the ground.

Thanks,

Deaf

I still suggest the sprawl.

At the end of the day, as has been mentioned by many, you really need to get to some grappling schools and train/learn with experienced grapplers. The experienced grapplers will not leave themselves open to attacks from you when they clinch or go for the takedown, unlike a novice rugby tackle (for example).
All the theories in the world sound good, but application and drilling techs is the best way to see what will and won't work for you. Everyone is different and will respond differently to your defence, be it an eye gouge, elbow strike, whatever.
To keep from going down in the first place, learn the sprawl and learn it well. Then learn the next step as plan B. and so on.

Hope this helps

[Himura Kenshin]

If you didn't sprawl and are on the ground you are in troubled if they are skilled. It's easy to say go for the eyes or the groin but when you do you are putting your limbs at risk by reaching for these targets and as soon as you do chances are you will be caught in a lock of some sort. You would have to be extremely lucky to have this work.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

Turn as he touches you. If you are in close then these targets are very easy to reach without risking injury to the self. If he is concerned with hurting you he won't be concerned with protecting himself. Sprawling is only one way to avoid being taken down. Certain throws like tomoe nage (the wheel throw) are good ways to avoid being on the wrong end of a fight that is going to the ground. I'd be striking him after he grabbed me. It's quite easy.

[Wishbone]

Let's make some assumptions here, chances are you are not going to be tackled by a BJJ black belt in a random street encounter. Second, if it is a street encounter then anything goes. If you are asking if it is Joe Tough Guy with no MA training and tackles you to the ground then how do you get out of it ?

Sounds like there are lots of assumptions being made that the person is going to be trained in some ground fighting art. Chances of that are slim actually. I would suggest taking it from there.


My suggestion would be to use reasonable force. If you feel your life is in danger than use lethal force. You have to make that judgement.

Having the attitude of training against a less skilled opponent is training to fail. You should always presume your adversary will be better than you.

[thetruth]

Turn as he touches you. If you are in close then these targets are very easy to reach without risking injury to the self. If he is concerned with hurting you he won't be concerned with protecting himself. Sprawling is only one way to avoid being taken down. Certain throws like tomoe nage (the wheel throw) are good ways to avoid being on the wrong end of a fight that is going to the ground. I'd be striking him after he grabbed me. It's quite easy.

I'd learn to grapple well before trying tomoe nage. For starters you have to assume your partner is relatively upright and pushing for this to work. You clearly have not been taken down by a grappler only by class members. Any half reasonable grappler won't be tackling you like this they will be going after the legs or going after underhooks which will not allow you to do such techniques. Everything sounds easy in theory until you are on the receiving end. By this I mean go to a grappling school or get someone in to yours and try your techniques on an more uncompliant attacker.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

[kaizasosei]

I would if it were a real fight or selfdefense situation, knee,punch, pinch, tear and push at vitals with no mercy in almost random order. Plus i for one would either go down relatively softly or land on top of him, chances are. Practically no way for me to go down except if rushed or in bad situation to begin with, falling on my own maybe.
Also against stronger partner in grappling training, i am forced to go down to the ground, but i am fairly resistant to takedowns. Last time i was floored was by a judoka blackbelt level and he could only get me down with a udegarami-kimura standing to drop back....still i fell out of it fairly decently-he sortof bragged that if he hadn't let go it would have been hardcore bad for me, but im quite certain i started to flip in the air anyhow(and land on him)....whatever, aside from that the guy couldnt get me down, and not knowing he being a judoka, i didnt even breakout my real takedowns because i wondered if they be too rough.....-
no such thing in mma, that what is effective is generally permitted... especially when it comes to takedowns and holds..

i did use that move hisaku that time...that move works like a charm, if done right, it's hard to counter-possibly with a pickup and slam, but part of the move is not telegraphing the jump at all and focusing on the neck even choping it like a double clinch, which induces a counteraction,which...and so forth.

j

[Himura Kenshin]

I'd learn to grapple well before trying tomoe nage. For starters you have to assume your partner is relatively upright and pushing for this to work. You clearly have not been taken down by a grappler only by class members. Any half reasonable grappler won't be tackling you like this they will be going after the legs or going after underhooks which will not allow you to do such techniques. Everything sounds easy in theory until you are on the receiving end. By this I mean go to a grappling school or get someone in to yours and try your techniques on an more uncompliant attacker.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

ummm actually I almost killed a man who was well trained in BJJ when he attacked me, he was not being compliant. Any "half reasonable grappler" should know that it is not efficient to grapple with a person without including strikes into their tactics. Of course Tomoe nage doesn't work as well when the legs are being tackled instead of the hips, in which case sprawling would likely be the best was to go or even a simple aiki piviot if your timing is good enough.

Comments like this: "You clearly have not been taken down by a grappler only by class members." are insulting, so please don't make assumptions about the way I train when you don't know anything about me.

[thetruth]

ummm actually I almost killed a man who was well trained in BJJ when he attacked me, he was not being compliant. Any "half reasonable grappler" should know that it is not efficient to grapple with a person without including strikes into their tactics. Of course Tomoe nage doesn't work as well when the legs are being tackled instead of the hips, in which case sprawling would likely be the best was to go or even a simple aiki piviot if your timing is good enough.

Comments like this: "You clearly have not been taken down by a grappler only by class members." are insulting, so please don't make assumptions about the way I train when you don't know anything about me.
I'm just asking but how was your attacker trying to kill you just using bjj. You said he wasn't including strikes. I'm just curious. I'm sure a good neck crank or choke can kill, you hit your head being taken down but how were you almost killed?

I don't like sacrifice throws full stop. Maybe that's just me.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

[kaizasosei]

I think he said that HE almost killed the bjj guy..?not certain however,




j

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Say you are being tackled. They might be going for your legs or hips. And say they made contact and you are falling with them but he does not yet have a solid hold.

If you are both falling I am assuming he is on top. If he is on top sitting high you can do an Upa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sH7fF_Rcss
Or one of its varations.



The idea is, once they dive for you and make contact, how to keep them from getting in. And yes, break contact with them.
Sprawl. This is actually a cool drill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdxqN6pTVgQ


Eye gouge? Kick them off you. Windpipe grab? Hair grab? You could use a Guillotine or reverse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNA0hvJXN_0&feature=PlayList&p=B8DDBCB62D2EA623&playnext=1&index=38



Alot of people are not strong enough to grapple against a fit young man who knows. So they need a strategy to stop the other guy from getting them into a lock and get off the ground. It deals more with leverage than actual strength.

[Sandstorm]

Sprawl. This is actually a cool drill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdxqN6pTVgQ



Lee Johnstone is the head coach of Medway Submissions school. He is a great guy and very well schooled in the ground game. I would urge anyone in the UK to get down and train with him.

Just wanted to throw some props out there. thanks for the links

[Himura Kenshin]

I'm just asking but how was your attacker trying to kill you just using bjj. You said he wasn't including strikes. I'm just curious. I'm sure a good neck crank or choke can kill, you hit your head being taken down but how were you almost killed?

I don't like sacrifice throws full stop. Maybe that's just me.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

What happened was when I was a senior in high school this kid I knew who was a brown belt in BJJ began to exchange rude comments with me until he flew off the handle and tried to tackle my hips. I had sufficient time to execute the throw because he gave me all of his momentum and so I dropped back, put my foot in his hip and threw him over me. He landed in a wall fell to the ground and barely moved. I thought he was dead for a minute, and thought of litigation crossed my mind and I thought my life was over, but his friends helped him up and wobbled over to class and was fine after about 10 minutes or so.

I'm glad I didn't get expelled for that.

[Deaf Smith]

JadecloudAlchemist,

Not bad!

Sprawl. I like the drill. It looks like a good one in case you don't have time to knee him as he comes. Do the sprawl and then roll away as fast as you can.

Guillotine and Reverse Guillotine. Ok, but might be tought for a much lighter person to exeute. Here they make contact but you are not down yet.

Upa looks good to. This is incase you fail and they do get on top of you. Just add a head butt to get his mind off you if you can.

Then once you get them off you, roll away and pop up ASAP.

Remember gang, he might have friends with him!

Thanks,

Deaf

[thetruth]

I think he said that HE almost killed the bjj guy..?not certain however,




j
you are correct, my bad

[thetruth]

What happened was when I was a senior in high school this kid I knew who was a brown belt in BJJ began to exchange rude comments with me until he flew off the handle and tried to tackle my hips. I had sufficient time to execute the throw because he gave me all of his momentum and so I dropped back, put my foot in his hip and threw him over me. He landed in a wall fell to the ground and barely moved. I thought he was dead for a minute, and thought of litigation crossed my mind and I thought my life was over, but his friends helped him up and wobbled over to class and was fine after about 10 minutes or so.

I'm glad I didn't get expelled for that.

You thought you nearly killed a guy you didn't nearly kill a guy. Props to you for being able to execute a throw he obviously gave you the space and had the momentum. It would have to be a ludicrously telegraphed technique to pull of a tomow nage though which is a risky technique ina crowded environment anyway. Also a bjj takedown done well with an element of surprise can be quite effective even with out the use of strikes

Cheers
Sam:asian:

[Uchinanchu]

Well, for those of you who are familiar with Goju Ryu forms, I would have to say one of my favorite applications against an agressive low (leg level) to medium (waist level) grab would have to be some of the applications worked from the very end portion of Sepai kata. Extremely nasty and effective, if you know how to work it.
I especially like the 'bell clap' at the end, where leverage and gravity work against the oppenent, and his own body weight works against him.

[Himura Kenshin]

You thought you nearly killed a guy you didn't nearly kill a guy. Props to you for being able to execute a throw he obviously gave you the space and had the momentum. It would have to be a ludicrously telegraphed technique to pull of a tomow nage though which is a risky technique ina crowded environment anyway.

He didn't like run at me from across the room or anything he was in my face and just started taking me down. As I was falling my foot ended up in his hip and a threw him as I went back.


Also a bjj takedown done well with an element of surprise can be quite effective even with out the use of strikes

Cheers
Sam:asian:
well yeah, any one can do anything if they are trained well enough. I just think you should add strikes to your take downs because it is like icing on the cake.

and who doesn't like icing?

[Woodbutcher]

Sever his/her head with knife hand strike. They generally put up little resistance after this.

[chinto]

I am not sure i understand the question.
that said, i would look for the most nasty destructive thing i can do.

Okinawan Karate has grappling in it. so we have some understanding of it, but we are not like say a judoka or a western wrestler or a BJJ type. but i can grantee if my friends are there they will kick any grappler who goes to the grounds head in.. I will tell you that I do not fight for fun, I do not fallow rules, and I will do what I have to to survive.

if you think that a fight for survival is like the UFC, you are mistaken. they are forbiden small joint manipulation and a lot of other things. so, remember there are no rules when its for survival.

the other thing to remember is : If You Fight You May Die! so avoid it if you can!

[Cirdan]

Headbutt, bite (REALLY bite, tear his throat out!), crush eyes/testicles/throat.

[chav buster]

the best ways to get back to your feet from grappling is to get an under hook and use it stand back up, this is good from the side mount guard and half guard and also from a shoot. from the mount you want to bridge as soon as possible and from just about every other position you want to get to guard or half guard and use the under hook escape. the problem with most grappling arts from a self defence point of veiw is that your trained to stay on the deck which is fine if thats where you want to be and is a very good tactic if the situation calls for it ut most of the time it dosnt.

i spend most of the time im rolling trying to get back to my feet and it works much better for me then trying to sub better grapplers.

[bowser666]

Having the attitude of training against a less skilled opponent is training to fail. You should always presume your adversary will be better than you.

Its not training to fail, I am just stating the obvious that it is a very small % of the population that is formerly training in any fighting art. It sounded liek he was expecting to go up against Royce Gracie or something. I never said lessen the quality of your training. Just my opinion anyways.

[bowser666]

Sorry for not adding to my original post. My reason for saying that you shouldn't expect to be grappled by a BJJ Black belt is this. The average person fights in a different way than someone who is trained. A skilled fighter is going to have a better approach then the average brawler with no training. Training expecting to fight a highly skilled black belt who si gonig to approach a fight differently than a street brawler with no training are two different approaches. That is what i meant if that makes any sense. Granted you are pretty much going to go off of instinct when attacked but anyways. I am probably not explaining myself right :P Oh well , brain fart I guess.

[MJS]

Sorry for not adding to my original post. My reason for saying that you shouldn't expect to be grappled by a BJJ Black belt is this. The average person fights in a different way than someone who is trained. A skilled fighter is going to have a better approach then the average brawler with no training. Training expecting to fight a highly skilled black belt who si gonig to approach a fight differently than a street brawler with no training are two different approaches. That is what i meant if that makes any sense. Granted you are pretty much going to go off of instinct when attacked but anyways. I am probably not explaining myself right :P Oh well , brain fart I guess.

No, you're making sense. :) I agree, and actually, I've said similar things in the past, that its not too likely that we'll be attacked by someone on the same level as a Royce or Mike Tyson. Of course, with the MMA craze, it could be possible that more people than we think, could be exposed to wrestling, grappling, etc. Again, don't want to sound paranoid and think that a 3rd degree BJJ BB is going to jump out and mug me at the ATM.

For myself, I'd rather be over prepared than under. I'd rather have the skills and not need them, than to need them and not have them. :)

[bowser666]

No, you're making sense. :) I agree, and actually, I've said similar things in the past, that its not too likely that we'll be attacked by someone on the same level as a Royce or Mike Tyson. Of course, with the MMA craze, it could be possible that more people than we think, could be exposed to wrestling, grappling, etc. Again, don't want to sound paranoid and think that a 3rd degree BJJ BB is going to jump out and mug me at the ATM.

For myself, I'd rather be over prepared than under. I'd rather have the skills and not need them, than to need them and not have them. :)

True , the average street fighter will usually tackle you the same way. A trained fighter knows the right way and wrong way. or something liek that. That was my whole point. You have to train in preparation for the response. Go with gut instinct and with what works is what it all boils down to I guess.

[jeff5]

As someone who has been a stand up fighter for almost 2 decades, with 16 years being spent in Kenpo I was curious how I would fare against the grapplers, other then the ones I had faced already. I took some BJJ classes to test myself and fell in love with the SPORT aspect of BJJ.
Please note that SPORT is capitalized for a reason. I feel that regardless of who is coming at me, the weapons I was taught in kenpo are more then adequate to deal with them. Finger strikes, soft tissue attacks, pinches small joint manipulation, etc.
Now I have been training for going on 4 years and am a purple belt in BJJ, and I advocate it to any stand up artist, but I think the vast majority of grapplers, even the higher level grapplers are simply studying a sport version of the art, they train constantly for the RULES, and find a hard time compensating for the lack of them in a street fight. That being said a grappler intent on hurting you can probably move past a fairly major eye injury or groin shot, or throat shot or broken finger and try to apply a submission, or ground and pound. Which is a big reason I advocate training on the ground for any stand up artist. I personally feel that a combination of environmental awareness, a good sprawl, and training in the ground game will give a stand up fighter all the tools he needs to avoid going to the ground to begin with, and the dirty self defense skills will help get off the ground if it happens.

Best post in this thread.

And I understand what your all saying about less skilled opponents. But imo you always train to beat someone who is more skilled than you.

[chav buster]

watch chuck lidell or bj penn, as soon as you hit the ground use the hip out escape or pull guard then pull his head down to try and getr him to posture up and use his upward force to help you get the hip out escape. the problem with grappling arts from a self defence point of view is thay train you to say on the floor when you should be focussing all your training on getting back to your feet.

[chinto]

watch chuck lidell or bj penn, as soon as you hit the ground use the hip out escape or pull guard then pull his head down to try and getr him to posture up and use his upward force to help you get the hip out escape. the problem with grappling arts from a self defence point of view is thay train you to say on the floor when you should be focussing all your training on getting back to your feet.


yep, and remember most attackers in real self defense situations come in groups of 2 and more. I would suggest that in a real SD situation that you consider using any and all force and techniques to not only not go to the ground but get up fast. this is to include Deadly Force. If attacked on the street I would say it is only reasonable and prudent to assume that they are seeking to take your life till it is shown other wise.