Skip Dan promotions, when is it ok?

[Twin Fist]

under what circumstances would you say it is ok to promote someone and to skip them over a rank.

For example, they are a 2nd, testing for 3rd and you promote them to 4th

when is this ok?

[dortiz]

I would hope its when they have completed the same time it would have been anyway and know the material.
I would also never test for my 5th unless I was running a school. Its just my opinion but I believe everything over 4th Dan should be about being a Master in the sense of growing the art.

Dave O.

[terryl965]

As long as they have the proper time in and the expertise for the skip, I do not have a problem with it. It is only when someone takes the shortcut to get ahead that it bothers me.

[mozzandherb]

I think it would be o.k to skip a colored belt, but not a black belt or dan of any kind. The reason is because I there are a lot of people who quit an art and then go back to white belt, but they remember a lot of what they had learned. In that case I would see it o.k to skip let's say from green stripe to green or blue to red stripe, but once you're a BB I dont think skipping a dan should be allowed

[HM2PAC]

Don't worry about skipping a belt.

In the ATA skipping a color belt happens all the time.

In the ATA no one would be allowed to skip a Black in rank though. That would be unheard of.

[Twin Fist]

no way they would lose a testing fee....


Don't worry about skipping a belt.

In the ATA skipping a color belt happens all the time.

In the ATA no one would be allowed to skip a Black in rank though. That would be unheard of.

[elder999]

under what circumstances would you say it is ok to promote someone and to skip them over a rank.

For example, they are a 2nd, testing for 3rd and you promote them to 4th

when is this ok?

1) Time in grade and content requirements covered-especially when "time in grade" winds up equating to the time required to say, go from 2nd to 4th dan, and the person has learned the requirements to 4th dan.

2) Epsecially after 4th or 5th dan, or whenever the organizations ranks begin having less to do with content and ability, and more to do with how the person is conducting themselves-say the content for the style ends at 4th dan, and the requirements thereafter are less tangible-"honor, spirit, committment, contributions to the ryu, etc." Under these circumstances, a promotion to 6th dan might be called for for an exceptional individual.

3) This one is a little weird, but many teachers bestow rank with the intention that the person grow into it. It's not quite an indication of ability and knowledge as much as it is potential. I've seen this a lot with people returning from overseas, even when the organization had representation in the U.S.-not necessarily a bad thing, as long as the person involved recognizes it for what it is.

4) When the testing authority says so.- some combination of all of the above, perhaps?

5) Never. I've been a karate 3rd dan for 15 years now. I don't know that I'll ever test for 4th dan, and if I do, I certainly would feel odd about skipping to 5th-not that I have to worry about it happening. I earned a tae kwon do 2nd dan more than 20 years ago-I have no intention of receiving further grading in that art, and would feel more than odd about doing so-especially if grade skipping were involved......


no way they would lose a testing fee....

What he said. :lfao:

[ArmorOfGod]

Don't worry about skipping a belt.

In the ATA skipping a color belt happens all the time.

In the ATA no one would be allowed to skip a Black in rank though. That would be unheard of.

Nah, no point in having a 5 year old 1st dan skip to 3rd dan. Just wait until they are 7 or 8 and let them test like the rest of the group.
;-)

AoG

[HM2PAC]

Sorry.

I've seen a young boy skip a color belt.

That's the way it it was.

Go ahead, skip that Dan ranking. It won't cheapen anything.

[HM2PAC]

You haven't seen your instructor in 6 years.

You are learning multiple forms in 6-8 weeks for testing.

Your instructor is testing you because of time in rank rather than personal evaluation of your readiness.

You are wanting to know if it is OK to skip a Dan.

Even the ATA does not have that much laxity in their standards. Put a camo stripe on that Black Belt of yours.

Listen up. I am in the ATA because there is nothing closer for 1+ hours drive in good weather. I am not a fan of the way things are done in the ATA, but, even they would not do these things.

You seem to have a good foundation in TKD. Do not cheapen it.

[Twin Fist]

uh, dude?

I created the thread because skip dan'ing was mentioned in terry's thread about the USAT test.

it has nothing to do with me.

in point of fact, I dont have a problem with skipping Dan ranks, my instructor was skip dan'ed from 3rd to 5th.

under certain conditions, like those outlined by Elder, i think it is ok. That being said, i would be very uncomfortable taking one. And would do so only under protest, and I would insist that I did test, even if it was after the fact.

And BTW- o have time in rank and i am a SCHOOL OWNER.

As for you getting all defensive about the ATA, deal with it, they have earned every bit of scorn they get

so back up off me.

[IcemanSK]

In my case, I was a 2nd Dan for 19 years (& actively training) simply because I trusted the wrong person. There's a guy who's 1st gup testing board I sat on in 1990 who is now a 6th Dan (in two Arts!)....but that's another story.

I didn't skip dan when I tested last year, but I can imagine the idea was designed around folks in my type of situation.

[Kwan Jang]

Under normal circumstances, I am opposed to the skip dan being available. Unfortunately, there are some people out there who were led to believe that they were testing for rank that was KKW certified and they passed the test they were given, but nothing was forwarded to Korea (including the fees). For these people and a few others that may have not gotten the recognition they should due to politics, racism, ect. I feel that the option can be a good one. However, I feel it should be very closely monitiored and controlled against the possible abuses that could too easily occur. IMO, it should NEVER be used for the "my student/child/ spouse is SO awesome that they should be skipped up a level and I am a master/GM with enough clout to make it happen" reason.

[HM2PAC]

TF wrote:

I created the thread because skip dan'ing was mentioned in terry's thread about the USAT test. It has nothing to do with me.

I hadn't read Terry's thread and your original post said nothing about being a follow-up to a different thread.


And BTW- o have time in rank and i am a SCHOOL OWNER.


Immaterial to the discussion.

So,
uh, dude
I'll give my opinion whether or not I'm defensive about the ATA or not. You like to harp on the ATA, but when you do things that they do and get chided for it you want me to "Back Off".

Sorry, it's my opinion that skipping a rank, ANY RANK, is cheap.

[Aefibird]

Personally, I think that skipping a Dan rank should only be used in exceptional circumstances and even then only if a person proves that they know the requirements inside-out for the rank they are skipping to.

[jarrod]

Sorry, it's my opinion that skipping a rank, ANY RANK, is cheap.


i dunno, i skipped a couple kyu ranks in jujitsu based on previous experience. somehow i sleep at night.

i do think skipping dan ranks should only be in exceptional cases though.

jf

[searcher]

It is one thing to skip kyu/gup ranks, but what is the real purpose of skipping Dan ranks? IMO, it serves no purpose. My 1st Dan and 4th Dan were more important to me then my 5th or 6th Dan. A BB should be a BB, it should not really matter what your Dan rank is. Unless it is part of some peeing match.

[bushidomartialarts]

I really, really disapprove, but that doesn't mean it does any actual harm.

On paper, I rate 3rd dan in Judo and Jiu Jutsu because the master of a system rolled with me for a couple of weekends. I've never formally trained in either, outside of those weekend seminars...but I wrestled in high school and college. Based on my performance on the ground, he just gave them to me.

I'm uncomfortable about it, but was I gonna shout him down in front of him and all his students? I only ever mention it on resumes, but then the modern resume is really a genre of historical fiction....

[Grenadier]

It depends on the circumstance.

My statement is from a Karate point of view, but maybe it can shed some light into this matter.

In some cases, such as the USA-NKF rankings, you're testing for a more "universal ranking," and I see no reason why someone who is, say, a 6th dan in a particular style of Karate, should have to test for 1st dan, under the USA-NKF guidelines.

If I were testing for a USA-NKF ranking, I'm would be shooting for at least sandan.

However, this is for an organization whose rankings are meant to supplement, and not replace, your school's actual ranking.

Within a given school, I firmly believe that people testing for dan rankings should go through each level. If someone is that exceptional of a student, that they should be of a higher ranking than what they just tested for, then let them test again at a later date, but at a sooner time than they normally would. In those cases, it's not the earliness of the next test they would take that bugs me; it's more like the lateness of the current test.

[Twin Fist]

TF wrote:
I hadn't read Terry's thread and your original post said nothing about being a follow-up to a different thread.

Immaterial to the discussion. you attacked me, my integrity, and my intentions when you didnt have a clue what you were talking about. I will take your apology, please tender it.



So, I'll give my opinion whether or not I'm defensive about the ATA or not. You like to harp on the ATA, but when you do things that they do and get chided for it you want me to "Back Off".

All I did was ask people's opinions, and I dont do ANYTHING that the ATA does. I dont skip kyu ranks, i dont invent belts like camo to get extra test fees, i dont promote 7 year olds to BB, I dont charge 5000 for an instructors cert, i dont promote BB's that cant fight, do I need to go on?

Hey, i get it, i would be defensive too if i was part of the ATA, thier sins are well known, and beyond defense

Skipping Kyu ranks? thats bad, each one is an important step in the students knowledge. Dan ranks not so much. Read your history, Dan ranks have always been about senority, not skill.

IF you had any Dan rank, you would know that.



Sorry, it's my opinion that skipping a rank, ANY RANK, is cheap.

well, it is certainly cheaper than the way the ATA does things......for the student that is

[dortiz]

"
Skipping Kyu ranks? thats bad, each one is an important step in the students knowledge. Dan ranks not so much. Read your history, Dan ranks have always been about senority, not skill."

I am saving this one for my feel better line. I have gone white to Bo black 4 times completely in order to learn each schools system properly with no skipping. Thats just in TKD : )

[exile]

Folks—it would be better for everyone to keep the personal confrontations and reactions to a minimum, eh? No need to get hot under the collar; let's just assume no one is insulting anyone else, and try to phrase things so that that's clear. Ideas, organizations and practices often merit criticism (and praise, as well), and that's fine; so is defending those things. As long as it stays there, no one need get his or her back up.

[StuartA]

under what circumstances would you say it is ok to promote someone and to skip them over a rank.

For example, they are a 2nd, testing for 3rd and you promote them to 4th

when is this ok?
Without reading the whole thread (I'll do that after posting lol).. my answer... never!

Stuart

[StuartA]

Read the whole thread and with the exception of someone falling under an unscrupulous instructor... I still say never!

Stuart

[dortiz]

Well I agree. I also got screamed at by a Korean G.M. thinking I was a spy or something pretending to be a low belt. I explained that I just never pursued testing due to job relocation's and that I really wanted to earn his BBelts in order and to get his help with Kukkiwon recognition. After watching me for a while and seeing that I knew all the forms he threw me out.

So I get what some folks are talking about. At the same time that I think cool a chance to earn what may help me should I need that recognition later.
I think in the end those of us that fell out of the systems or like here in the states that got teacher certs but never Kukkiwons will never be able to validate it in this setting. truth is if its crap who cares...how emberrasing to have a rank and look like fool on the floor. I have always been happy to wear any belt and hang with the highest rank I can find on the floor. Heck, for years I had a plain BBelt I wore so I could go to the BBelt level sparring. Thats all I cared about.

I hope if the Kukkiwon keeps them that they are strict and earned and if not please make it go away.

Dave O.

[chrispillertkd]

Skipping dan levels? Never. I have seen gup ranks test and do such a good job that a very few of them were double promoted (going from 6th to 4th gup, for example). They still had to learn the material for the rank they had skipped, of course, and their next promotion took longer than usual so they eventually ended up taking about the same amount of time as students who didn't double promote to reach I dan.

Heck, I know of one woman who tested from 10th or 9th gup to 4th gup! In her situation her husband was her instructor and he just never tested her for promotion so people wouldn't think she was just having it awarded to her. He had a visiting examiner in who tested her and she did such an excellent job that he promoted her to blue belt. She is phenomenal and I have no doubt that she was beating opponents in sparring who were much her senior during her test! But she trained for a loooong time before even being tested in the first place.

As for dan skipping, some people have mentioned being under and unscrupulous instructor. But if time in rank isn't the only requirement, but being taught the material for the rank that is to be skipped (as some people have stated) then I have to ask why they'd be testing in the first place? If you're under an unscrupulous instructor who isn't going to test you when you think you're ready why is he going to teach you the required material in the first place? I tested for V dan last year after being a IV dan for 8 years (under a fine and ethical instructor!). But I didn't know So-San or Se-Jong (V dan patterns in the ITF) before I tested. If one's instructor is unscrupulous shouldn't there be more to it than simply taking a long time between degrees (especially if you're being taught advanced technique anyway)?

I guess I understand the argument in theory, but I just don't see the need for it in practice.

Pax,

Chris

[Twin Fist]

As my instructor pointed out, there is one time when you might NEED to.

if, as my lineage does, you follow the rule that only a 3rd can promote someone to 1st, then you might NEED to.

But that is pretty rare.

like i said, I dont have aproblem with it, under certain circumstances, but those are rare indeed.

Stuart,
you should never say never, it may come back to bite ya. Fate is funny that way.

[Twin Fist]

Exile,
I was personaly brought into the discussion, me, my life, my circumstances. So I answered from that perspective.


As long as it stays there, no one need get his or her back up.

[StuartA]

Stuart,
you should never say never, it may come back to bite ya. Fate is funny that way.

I revised my post remember.. I said, with 1 exception*.. still never! So its not really never say never :)

I never got double promotions/skip grades anyway.. no matter how good they are. how can someone be promoted without knowng the required material... can i become a doctor if I play nurses well and promise to learn it all afterwards.. of course not!

If you want to recognise someones hard work, give them an A grade or something!

Stuart

* By exceptions I do mean those who have been mislead etc. BUT the offshoot of this is that its abused.. people who havnt trained for 10 yeasr suddenly turning up again and are jumping grades and all that! TBH.. I dont give a fig either way, it lacks integrity to me and means little when judged against the 'behind the belt' knowledge.. as ultimatly, thats what counts and thats how I personally see people!

[StuartA]

Please delete

[Carol]

Terry's USAT thread...someone getting bumped up two dan levels for paying several thousand dollars and working fervently on material for two days...that also sounds like an abuse of a system.

However, someone like IcemanSK...I've never worked out with him but I hear him talk about his training and his teaching and he seems very competent and mature. To hear someone like him being at 2nd dan for 19 years for trusting the wrong person...that to me sounds like an abuse of a system.

There can be an abuse if one skips a dan rank, there can be abuse if one doesn't skip a dan rank.

There are different ways to correct abuses to a system. Skipping a dan rank is not necessarily the only solution nor is it the best solution to a given problem. But, even though the overall idea makes me a bit queasy, I think there are some legitimate, logical, and rare occasions when it is a good choice to make. :asian:

[SFC JeffJ]

I was skipped a lot. But then again I was 10th kyu for about six years before my first testing. Then I was 1st kyu. Another seven years went by and I was testing for my first Dan and was awarded 2nd Dan because of knowledge and application of the material.

I do still feel kinda funny about that Dan testing, but then again the people who got their 1st Dan at the same time (not trying to sound arrogant here) were way behind me in technique and understanding.

So, I can see it happening, but not very often.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that Elder summed it up pretty well.

To answer for myself, I think it very much depends upon the circumstances.

If the person has the time in grade, tested, received his 'belt' and a 'cert', but the school pocked the money, never registed him with the Kukkiwon, ITF, or other org, then he finds out his cert and rank(s) are bogus, then provided he knows the material for the rank he seeks, has a level of skill appropriate of the rank that he seeks, and has the maturity for such rank, then I'd say that its a no brainer.

If the person has had the time in grade but missed the test...
1. Why did they miss the test or tests?
2. Have they been training continually?
3. Does their current level of ability, maturity, and conduct warrant such a skip.

If they do not have the time in grade...
1. Why are they seeking the skip?
2. Have responsibilities been placed upon them that require the increased rank, such as grading students?
3. Does their current level of ability, maturity, and conduct warrant such a skip.

If someone else is recommending the person for the skip, i.e. they are not seeking it themselves....
1. Did the person do some extraordinary service for the organization?
2. Have responsibilities been placed upon them that require the increased rank, such as grading students?
3. Does their current level of ability, maturity, and conduct warrant such a skip.

Regarding a comment made on the last page regarding testing for fifth dan and up and that only school owners really need to, I'd like to reword the statement: any ranks for which there is no material to test for are only needed for school owners or organizational administrators.

If there is material to test for, you have the time in grade, and there is new material to learn in the new rank, then I do feel that it is beneficial to anyone, though I do agree that unless you're a school owner, it is usually not necesarilly.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sorry.

I've seen a young boy skip a color belt.

That's the way it it was.

Our school does not skip colored belts, but I have seen it done at other places.

Personally, I don't see any belt skip, colored or not, as cheapening the practitioner provided they know the material required for a practitioner of that rank and that they can execute the material at a level appropriate to the rank.

I'm more concerned about skipping material.

So, you being ATA, lets say someone is skipped to camo from two belts below (skiping over one belt to camo). If this person knows the material and can execute the material at a camo belt level for all of the preceeding ranks, not just the material required for the camo belt test, then I don't see skipping them as cheapening anything, though I do feel that they should be tested for the material required for the rank that they're skipping.

From what I understand, the ATA does a block teaching format, so if I understand it correctly, a student really can learn the forms and material that is ahead of him or her.

If the student has the time in grade and simply missed the one test but knows the material up to and including the material needed to test for camo, then it isn't cheapening anything.

Incidentally, change the belt color and my comment applies to any organization. I only referenced the ATA because you're a member.


Go ahead, skip that Dan ranking. It won't cheapen anything.
I disagree here. Inflated dan rank is one of the biggest problems in taekwondo, regardless of organization. Skipping a dan should be only for very, very specific circumstances and should never be one lightly.

While a skip in dan rank won't automatically cheapen anything, it has the potential to cheapen everything. It also has the potential to be another stepping stone for an underskilled and immature instructor who not only never becomes properly trained or mature, but then attains the rank to promote people without having the ability to properly evaluate those he promotes. This is likewise, a huge problem in taekwondo today, regardless of organization.

Daniel

[exile]

Exile,
I was personaly brought into the discussion, me, my life, my circumstances. So I answered from that perspective.

Understood, TF. The danger is that you get 'reverb'. One thing that I've found very useful is the sweet one-liner: 'Suppose we just leave personalities out of this, OK?'

Amazing how fast that makes the point. Sometimes people go over that boundary line without thinking, and all that's needed is a kind of sharp pull on their chain to get them back in 'civil' territory.

[jim777]

Well, I can't imagine anyone every considering skipping me a grade ;) but I would have to think if a Master I was studying under thought someone in my school deserved to be skipped a belt, I wouldn't second guess that decision. In Seido I train under the 9th Dan founder directly, and I would never dream of questioning any decision or action of his. So, I suppose while I wouldn't expect to see it myself, I would have to view 'the skip' in context of who exactly was shipping the student, not the context of the particular student. Hope that makes sense.

To lowly me, the ways of high dans are mysterious and subtle, and generally not to be questioned by the rank and file. Why ask the question when you know you haven't the insight to understand the answer? :asian:

[Sukerkin]

That's good advice, Exile :tup:.

When we communicate on the web we must perforce adjust to an extent the way we convey our opinons because the only thing people have to go on are 'bald' words on the screen.

However, it is perfectly possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

TF and me are, I think {hope :eek:}, examples of this. We don't have matched opinions on many aspects of politics, quite opposite in some ways, in fact; yet we manage to have perfectly reasonable explorations of what we think by the simple auspice of still treating each other with respect.

That last is such an important thing to remember when we post. It can even lead to the situation I am in now, after a considerable number of discourses with TF, wherein I find myself wondering what he thinks on a matter. If you don't maintain that sense of respect then you lose the opportunity to learn and understand other viewpoints.

Probably a bit too deep for early eveing on a martial arts forum but it's still a valid point. Anyhow, back to the actual point of the thread, chaps :lol:.

[Twin Fist]

wait, i just realized something

All this time, I was not talking about someone ASKING to skip a rank.

THAT would be bogus. pretty much always, not ALWAYS, but pretty much

I was referring to when a persons instructor just does it to them.

I couldnt think of ever asking for that to happen, but what if my instructor just up and does it?

thats what happened to my instructor. She tested for 4th, and they promoted her to 5th.

in that case, I would not disrespect my instructor by turning it down, but I wouldnt feel totally ok with it either.

[jim777]

wait, i just realized something

All this time, I was not talking about someone ASKING to skip a rank.

THAT would be bogus. pretty much always, not ALWAYS, but pretty much

I was referring to when a persons instructor just does it to them.

I couldnt think of ever asking for that to happen, but what if my instructor just up and does it?

thats what happened to my instructor. She tested for 4th, and they promoted her to 5th.

in that case, I would not disrespect my instructor by turning it down, but I wouldnt feel totally ok with it either.

I don't really see how any good martial artist whose head and heart are in the right place could feel good about that. Well, right off the bat (for the first few moths), anyway ;)
You're absolutely right, you couldn't turn it down, you'd simply have to do whatever your heart told you to to make yourself feel worthy of that promotion. It might be a very good thing in the end.

[Marginal]

thats what happened to my instructor. She tested for 4th, and they promoted her to 5th.

in that case, I would not disrespect my instructor by turning it down, but I wouldnt feel totally ok with it either.
Makes sense. I'd figure they saw something to merit it, but I'd be working my butt off to get to where I think the bar's now set.

[Twin Fist]

good eay to look at it Marginal

[StuartA]

Personally, I don't see any belt skip, colored or not, as cheapening the practitioner provided they know the material required for a practitioner of that rank and that they can execute the material at a level appropriate to the rank.
Okay.. my system has never had 'skipped' dans, so Im writting this as a reference to 'double promotions', which i think are similar, but there may be differences, Im not sure!

Daniel has hit the nail on the head: Regarding 'double promotions' it usually (usually as in EVERY case Ive ever hard of) means the students is promoted merit (whether deserved or not) and most definatly does not know the required material - therefore it shoudnt IMO be issued.

Now, if someone DID know the material, I'd still question it as grades in MA serve as stepping stones, experience at various levels is invaluable, plus of course theres knowing it to show at a grading and really knowing it properly, which only comes from training it for a while!

- Should they be issued due to merit (ie. a good grading) - No IMO
- Should they be issued due to someone knowing all the material for say 2 grades - again, No IMO - serve your time properly
- Should they be issued based on time and knowledge - again No, unless the student can give very valid reasons why he/she has not been able to follow the standard grading structure - which i think is the basic standard that needs to be applied for this and from what I hear/read, its simply not!

Stuart

[granfire]

Hmm, make me appreciate the ITA system. You just don't skip rank.

And having plenty of testing chances through out he year for lower belts and at least once every year for the high ranking Black belts, there is no real excuse to not step up the rank ladder one by one. (and the tests don't cost an arm and a leg either).


it's a lot of politics involved other wise, do I or do I not recommend student X to test, do I keep him/her from doing so.

There are a lot of things that play into it, just owning a rank for x number of years is not the prime criteria, or rather should be.

[terryl965]

I guess the best answer is this for everybody do what you feel is right for you. This way if you can look yourself in the mirror and say I deserve this than you do.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[HM2PAC]

I'm just not getting why anyone would believe that skipping any rank (color or Dan) would be acceptable.

Physicians can't skip a year of school/residency/fellowship.

Electricians can't skip ahead in their apprenticeship.

No one would want a pilot that had been promoted on time in rank status to a position to fly a new plane they had not sufficient knowledge of.

Why would anyone respect someone who has not spent time in rank?

[elder999]

I'm just not getting why anyone would believe that skipping any rank (color or Dan) would be acceptableof.

Well, I posted a variety of reasons why it has happened, and they've all occurred over a fairly long period of time. I think Steven Seagal was promoted from 5th dan to 7th dan in aikido, by the Honbu. There are others. Most Japanese systems don't have content requirements for ranks above 5th dan, though......


Why would anyone respect someone who has not spent time in rank?

I'd respect anyone who didn't want to spend time in "camo belt" rank. :lfao:

[Twin Fist]

As I have already said, untill recently, there was NO material for any rank past BB, in any system that uses a belt system.

we have have that?

there was NO new material above 1st Dan

after BB, the ranks were so everyone would know who was senior, and were granted based on time in grade, and skill as a teacher.

and thats all.

In texas, where TKD in america started, in the 60's and early 70's, NO ONE tested (in the sense of new material being judged)for anything past 1st anyway. Hell, GM Rhee was in Washington DC after 1962. You think Steen or Burleson went to DC to test? pfffft

They were promoted by Rhee because they were producing students. You still had to test, which were demonstrations at BEST, but there was so few people reaching that level that it wasnt a problem

Pretty much the same thing in Japan

For that matter, Jhoon Rhee never tested in the sense you guys are talking about after 1st Dan.

they had to create material to be required for ranks after 1st dan in the mid 70's, before that there was none.

Hell, for that matter, I knew a school in the 70's that their test for 2nd was to get a 1st Dan in a second art, and X hours teaching art #1

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm just not getting why anyone would believe that skipping any rank (color or Dan) would be acceptable.

Physicians can't skip a year of school/residency/fellowship.

Electricians can't skip ahead in their apprenticeship.

No one would want a pilot that had been promoted on time in rank status to a position to fly a new plane they had not sufficient knowledge of.

Why would anyone respect someone who has not spent time in rank?
Taekwondo is not comparable to any of those things. Taekwondo is comparatively simple. Eight forms, four basic kicks, four basic blocks, four basic hand strikes and three basic stances. The rest is all variations of these basic techniques. Those basic techniques and lots and lots of repetition make you good. Colored cloth is only meant to reflect the skills you already have. If you have the skills of a red belt, you should be wearing one. The pomp and ceremony that go with belts are nice confidence builders and good money makers for the school. Nothing more. The only rank that matters are the dan ranks. The rest of it has all been added without any expansion of the curriculum. In fact in some cases (KKW) one could argue that there has been a reduction of curriculum.

People don't respect your rank. They respect your skills.

Take an eight year old blackbelt to an adult blackbelt class and see how much respect he gets. The other yudanja may think he's cute, and they may even cheer him on, but he won't get the respect of an adult blackbelt. Even if the adult started at eighteen and the kid started at six and both got their belt in two years. They respect the twenty year old because the twenty year old can knock them around. The eight year old just looks cute in a dobok.

I will say this, H2: I do not favor skipping ranks. If the rank is there, and if each rank has different material to learn, then each rank should be gone through.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'd respect anyone who didn't want to spend time in "camo belt" rank. :lfao:
Technically the rank is not the belt, but some geub rank (I don't know which geub gets the camo belt in ATA).

Frankly, I don't care if the belt is hot pink; if the school's instructors have the chops and they turn out exceptional blackbelts, I'd be okay if they told us we had to wear tutus.

Daniel

[Twin Fist]

true, but camo is still .............whats the word.....used to mean "happy" or "joyfull".......someone help me out here.....

[HM2PAC]

The word you are alluding to is "GAY".

Don't beat around the bush, it's juvenile.

elder999 wrote:

I'd respect anyone who didn't want to spend time in "camo belt" rank. :lfao:


Hey, I resemble that remark. I have a camo, my wife does, my daughter does. My son is still a yellow belt. He didn't know his material well enough to advance at the testing. his thread is about skipping rank right? I won't allow my children to advance if they do not know the material. I definitely will never allow them to skip a belt. Even if it means we all have to wear a GAY camo belt.

[Twin Fist]

actually i was going for "chipper".............

[HM2PAC]

No you weren't.

Now your being coy.

Man up.

[Sukerkin]

It does noone any credit to bicker about such trivialities. If you can't get along then, literally, Ignore each other. Or better still, allow your sense of humour to overcome the ire you may feel at any chiding remarks.

If you are unable to do that then it's not exactly a secret what steps come next if the fractiousness continues to build.

[HM2PAC]

Sukerkin,

You are correct. I will change my tone.

[Twin Fist]

No you weren't.

Now your being coy.

Man up.


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e62/BEERNICENGOOD123/pancake20bunny3gu.jpg?t=1235092878

[jarrod]

i have no idea what the history is between twin fist & hm2pac, but reading this as a tkd outsider i have to say that it is pretty funny.

jf

[jim777]

Love that rabbit :)

[dortiz]

Can you imagine? Its so ready for eating. A little cream sauce and that pancake and its gone....


Dave O.

[dancingalone]

How would you feel if someone skilled in a similar art like karate or tang soo do joined your school and quickly promoted to black belt based on his prior experience? He would obviously have to learn the local curriculum but most TKD schools have more or less the same the stuff: forms, self-defense, one-steps, & free sparring.

[Twin Fist]

i would be ok with it, sure they dont know the material, but it is about skill level.

Hell, i have done it, when i started kenpo, i was TOLD to wear my brown belt (from TKD) so everyone would know my skill level, despite learning the white belt stuff.

[HM2PAC]

Dancingalone asked:

How would you feel if someone skilled in a similar art like karate or tang soo do joined your school and quickly promoted to black belt based on his prior experience?

I honestly didn't think that happened outside of the ATA. When we joined, they wanted to promote me based on prior experience, but I declined and started at white.

Since then we have had 2 practitioners of Okinawan Karate join at different times. They are both still taking classes, but they also chose to start at white.

Toughest white belts we have at this time. Sparring with them is always a nice surprise.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that a lot depends on the nature of one's prior experience. A first dan in, say, Shotokan would have a very easy time picking up the KKW curriculum. In fact, I witnessed that first hand at our school when a shotokan yudansha joined our dojang.

He insisted on starting off at white belt, but he was promoted very quickly because really, all he had to do was learn forms and adjust his technique very, very slightly.

On the other hand, a judo yudansha (with only judo experience) or similar BJJ blackbelt would have no comparable experience to the taekwondo curriculum. Although both would undoubtedly be in good condition, particluarly if they hadn't take any time off from training, but they'd need to learn the strikes, blocks, stances, sparring style and forms, and should start at the beginning.

Daniel

[Twin Fist]

funny thing, I wore my Brown belt in class, but whenever I would test for kenpo rank, I showed up in a white belt, and just added a color stripe when i would pass the test.

it always cracked up Mr Spry when I would come out wearing it.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Honestly, TF, given the availablility of attachable colored stripes, I don't see any reason why a bunch of different belts are even necessary.

Just a white belt to which the student attaches a stripe when they pass the test. Those little stripes cost a whole lot less than belts too.

Daniel

[Twin Fist]

Daniel,
I have actually thought about doing that, just a white belt, and adding a new color stripe for each rank.

but man, that would be one DIRTY white belt by the time someone is ready to test for black.

[HM2PAC]

Isn't there some history to the black belt actually being the soiled and dirty white belt of the advanced students?

That the longer the student had been practicing, the dirtier the belt got?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Isn't there some history to the black belt actually being the soiled and dirty white belt of the advanced students?

That the longer the student had been practicing, the dirtier the belt got?
That is what would now be called an old wives' tale. It is an attempt at explaining the logic behind all those colors in the belt system. To paraphrase:

In ancient times, the practitioner's obi would be white, and as he practiced it would slowly darken until he had a black belt. That is why the belts get darker as the modern practitioner progresses.

In reality, Kano used a white and black belt because they contrast. One denoted the advanced students and the other not- advanced students.

Anyhow, soiled white belts only get more yellowed, but they don't eventually turn black.

Funny thing is that if you practice a lot, after years of wear, a black belt actually begins to show white.

Daniel

[dancingalone]

Isn't there some history to the black belt actually being the soiled and dirty white belt of the advanced students?

That the longer the student had been practicing, the dirtier the belt got?

That's likely an apocryphal story invented to mystify the martial arts in impressive fashion to lay people. The black belt/dan ranking system was invented by Jigaro Kano of judo fame. I believe he started out with white, brown, and black belts only, but over the years the entire rainbow of colors have been added as karate and taekwondo adopted Kano's idea.

[HM2PAC]

Glad I asked.

I keep our stuff pretty clean. I'd have been a perpetual white belt under that system.

[Marginal]

Anyhow, soiled white belts only get more yellowed, but they don't eventually turn black.

Sure they do. All that blood and motor oil anyone training in a real art is likely to land in will surely turn a white belt black in exactly three years.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sure they do. All that blood and motor oil anyone training in a real art is likely to land in will surely turn a white belt black in exactly three years.
Not completely black. You'd have black spots, light and dark green spots (grass stains) brown spots, and even some white spots and .... oh... my... it isn't a black belt, now its a .... camo belt?:p

Daniel