Kenpo Weapons

[Chicago Green Dragon]

What are all the weapons that are a part of Kenpo ?


Chicago Green
Dragon :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Chicago Green Dragon
What are all the weapons that are a part of Kenpo ?Chicago Green Dragon :asian:


Any that you can put in your hands.

:D

[Elfan]

Your environment is everything in, on, an around you. It would seem best to use all of that to your best advantage.

[Kalicombat]

Your mind is the most reliable weapon. Besides that, everything and anything from spit to dirt, everything in your immediate area.

[Zoran]

Originally posted by Chicago Green Dragon
What are all the weapons that are a part of Kenpo ?


Chicago Green
Dragon :asian:

Well the point everyone is making is Kenpoists are taught to use what ever is at hand.

But, your question may be more geared towards what weapons are required or traditionally taught. Well that would depend on who's school you are at. Probably the two most common weapons taught are knife and Kenpo sticks (or Escrima sticks). Some Kenpo schools incorporate modified Filipino weapons training. We do tend towards the weapons that are practicle. So traditional weapons like nunchaku, sword, or other are not common.

By my black belt test, I was required to know knife, yawara (basically anything you can close your fist around and sticks out of both sides of your hand), club (heavier than an escrima stick), kenpo sticks, and handgun.

Hope that answers your question.

[Elfan]

Traditional Kenpo weapons: sitck, staff, knife, cane, nanchuku(sp)

[stacks]

the weapons in the Tracy Kenpo system that I teach are staff, spear, cane, butterfly swords and samurai sword aside from the the hand and foot (you have these weapons at your side at all times)

stacks :samurai:

[satans.barber]

With kenpo being designed primarily as a street applicable art, I suppose it's worth questioning the merits of spending time learning to use exotic weapons...isn't it?

Certainly there's nothing wrong with learning them for the sheer enjoyment of it, I love playing with weapons and I guess most of us do, but I'd rather concentrate on learning to use something that I could actually carry about my person, and then use to defend myself.

In England, you can't really carry anything that can be used seriously as a weapon (legally), which is why I concentrate on hand to hand and don't give much time at all over to weapons. I do think the traditional escrima sticks are worth getting to know though, because you can use loads of things in the same style (umbrella, rolled up newspaper, broken pool cue etc.). I'd like to learn those, but unfortunately we don't get taught them. I asked Mr. Cawood about it once, and he said 'they're just an extension of your hands', beat the crap out of a punch bag with a couple of sticks for half a minute, then carried on with what he was doing.

I can't make this 'extension of my hands' link at all though, and so I'm pretty clumsy with them! No FMA schools round here either :(

Ian.

[Kenpodoc]

satans.barber

I agree that more stickwork would be of benefit. I find that stickwork helps my empty hands and I'd fook around for a partner and at least an occasional seminar in FMA.

As to other weapons I realize that it's hard to carry a knife in England but in my experience every kitchen has multiple potential weapns available, so I'd think more knife work would be extremely valuable. I'd think that supplimenting your training with some Cane work would work in an English enviroment also.

Respectfully,

Jeff

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Since man's first implementation of tools and weapons ( around two thousand years ago ) in the quest for survival, two such tools/weapons have remained constant in their use, production and significance: the stick ( club ), and the knife.

We have a multitude of various tools and weapons of destruction ( along with a variety of legalities to address the carry and use of these ), yet these two will always remain the simplest, and therefore, most practical for personal defense ( self-preservation ).

First off, a stick can be found within a greater number of everyday objects. A knife is a bit harder to improvise, yet the chances of having a stick or improvised knife nearby is far greater than having a handgun near.

Or, in short ( without my soapbox episode :cool: ), simply the stick and the knife.

:soapbox:

[Kenpo Yahoo]

The reason people learned how to use the nunchukus, Kamas, Bo's, swords, and sai's is because they were the everyday tools that they had around. Nunchukus were used to beat the rice and grains to seperate the stalks or something like this. Kama's were used in a reaping fashion during the harvest. The bo was nothing more than a stick that the farmers put buckets on (one on each end) to help them carry things.

Since most of us don't use these types of tools on a day to day basis why learn them? Other than the joy of learning a TRADITIONAL weapon, this type of training doesn't offer us much in the way of self defense

I'm a big fan of the AKKI's weapons system, of which the two main weapons taught are the knife and club. Seeing as how these two weapons are readily available in most environments it would make sense to learn how to use them. Things like car antennas, metal hangers, kitchen knives, pvc pipe, clip knives, beer bottles, pool cues, etc. Heck even a half empty 20 oz plastic coke bottle will do some damage if you shake it up, the expanding gas will make the bottle solid as a rock and voila.... instant whacking stick. If you really get desperate you can take off your belt and use it like a whip (with the buckle being the tip). I saw a guy get thrashed with this at a bar one night.

If you are truly interested in self defense than these are the things you should be learning. If you are merely studying the art, then have fun with the traditional weapons.

[jfarnsworth]

that basic knowledge of martial arts weapons should be implemented. At least to know a little something about various weapons and how to use them. Of course I'm not talking about being able to carry around a Sai everywhere you go to defend yourself but just an idea on how to manuever it is nice.:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

In EPAK, in the Self Defense Division of our art... you will discover that there are 4 methods of attack {Infinite Insights Book 1, page 46}.

1) Unarmed (You) vs. Unarmed
2) Unarmed " vs. Armed
=======================
3) Armed " vs. Unarmed
4) Armed " vs. Armed
:rolleyes:

Most of the beginning curriculums contain the first two categories, but to be a "complete" Kenpoist...... you also need "Armed" skills as well {which is usually at the advanced levels for obvious reasons}.

The choice of "Arms" of course is up to you........ but I personally encourage every thing from the Yarawa stick to the gun, with swords, staffs, spears, knives, clubs, throwing stars, kamas, nunchaku, ash trays, chairs, forks and on and on........ thrown in-between.

Not only could you learn and use weapons...... You NEED to. There are many lessons learned ..... distance is one.

:asian:

[Blindside]

EXTREMEJ_AKKI posted: Since man's first implementation of tools and weapons ( around two thousand years ago ) in the quest for survival, two such tools/weapons have remained constant in their use, production and significance: the stick ( club ), and the knife.

That's funny, I was pretty dang sure that at the dawn of the first millenium AD, the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Chinese, oh and EVERYBODY else had figured out tool and weapon use. 2000 BP is already the iron age, you better start looking well before that.

Maybe you meant two HUNDRED thousand years ago?

Homo erectus was walking around making hand-axes and controlling fire, but that form of human has been kicking around since 1.5 MILLION years BP.

Regardless, your point is true regarding weapon/tool use, though your dates are way way off.

Lamont

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Regardless, your point is true regarding weapon/tool use, though your dates are way way off.

Lamont [/B]

Ack!!! You're absoluely right....ug....my mind was stuck on JC's birthday for some reason.....

I suppose that's what I get for posting with a raging headache. :shrug:

Thanks for the correction! :toilclaw:

[theletch1]

I have always loved training with weapons of any sort and I've always tried to justify my use of the time to train with them by telling myself that I can use the basic techniques with the weapons to augment my open hand techs and to feel more comfortable with weapons of opportunity (i.e pool cue, tire iron, cheater bar on a flatbed, broken chair leg as a tonfa). I also believe that working with traditional weapons helps to instill discipline and a sense of "completeness" to your training.

[roryneil]

Aren't we mainly training not how to use these weapons but rather how do defend against them?

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by roryneil
Aren't we mainly training not how to use these weapons but rather how do defend against them?

Both. Why shouldn't we train to use such weapons? Kenpo is many things, yet it is built on the need for survival; this is the very reason I tell new students that I don't teach self-defense, I teach self-preservation.

I've heard many Kenpoists refer to the knife as the ' equalizer. ' And I'll be honest, against 3 or more guys who have every intention of taking my head off, I've no qualms or hesitations about pulling my SpyderCo and putting some folks down. It's a terrible thing to say, yet it's all about survival.

As I said, American Kenpo can be many things; however, the root of it's implementation and development is survival.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by roryneil
Aren't we mainly training how to "defend" against these weapons -not how to use them ourselves?


At the lower levels (beginning stages) of the art YES. As we advance however, we should become aware and enhance our skills also to be able to "use" weapons that our hands may carry. :samurai: Keep in mind, they do not have to be used in offense but rather can be used defensively as well. You also can gain skill with something and be prepared to use it and never have to.
"Failing to prepare is preparing to fail".

Here we have yet another example of the saying: To thoroughly understand the effects of motion,you need to examine opposites and reverses.

:asian:

[pineapple head]

I always carry a large buch of keys around with me with one large key if i want to swing it.
Useful weapon i think.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by pineapple head
I always carry a large buch of keys around with me with one large key if i want to swing it. Useful weapon i think.


Kinda like a Marikigusari (Spike & Chain) a popular Japanese weapon.

:asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by theletch1
...and to feel more comfortable with weapons of opportunity (i.e pool cue, tire iron, cheater bar on a flatbed, broken chair leg as a tonfa)....

Right on. I don't know which movie it was but a year or two ago I saw one with Jet Li I think where he used his belt Very effectively.

Later a Goju instructor I know said that you can use a belt like nunchaku. That got me thinking.

Another more experienced friend of mine also said that "flexible weapons are very cool."

Crossover skills would be my primary interest in learning a "traditional weapon."

Although, I was about to learn the Sabre when I switched schools and I still sort of want to learn that, but I doubt that I will.

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by cdhall
Later a Goju instructor I know said that you can use a belt like nunchaku

I tried that once, and I couldn't really pull it off. Problem is a belt's only weighted at one end, so if you change grip you just end up swinging a bit of leather that doesn't have a whole lof of momentum.

Personally, if I was going to resort to that, I'd keep it in one hand and use ot more like a flail, so the buckle was always at the end.

While we're on the topic of belts, how would people go about defending against someone trying to hit you with one? With a small weight at the end, it's not going to be a very committed attack like somthing heavier such as a baseball bat would be, they're goign to be able to bring it right back at you pretty quick....ideas?

Ian.

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
The choice of "Arms" of course is up to you........ but I personally encourage every thing...

Not only could you learn and use weapons...... You NEED to. There are many lessons learned ..... distance is one.

In Parker's American Kenpo there are techniques and/or sets for the staff, sticks (not Filipino application), nunchaku and the knife. Although these particular weapons have official placement in Parker's system, an American Kenpoist should be able to "Kenpoize" their use of any weapon they can hold in their hands. I have personally feel it to be a benefit to pick up anything...from a wrench to an umbrella...and experiment.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

[Blindside]

While we're on the topic of belts, how would people go about defending against someone trying to hit you with one? With a small weight at the end, it's not going to be a very committed attack like somthing heavier such as a baseball bat would be, they're goign to be able to bring it right back at you pretty quick....ideas?

Charge him, get to punching range and pound on him. The belt can be using to entangle, but that usually requires two hands, so use your two hands/elbows/knees etc to take him apart. The offensive abilities of a belt are pretty limited, even a big-a$$ belt buckle isn't going to kill you (and I see plenty of those out here in cowboy country.) Just cover your head as you enter, you can take most shots to the body or arms. Flexible weapons are slower on initiation since the weapon needs to be pulled into action. Their advantage is that they are difficult to block since they wrap around, but that isn't that important on a belt. On a flail maybe, not a belt.

Lamont

[Michael Billings]

I like the belt as a weapon:

Defensively against a knife, not only do you have a longer reaching strike, but wrapped around the arm, like an old European Buckler, it can protect the forearm, fist and hand.

I like to use is as a "wrap" entangling arms and actually tying hands to throat or using the belt to restrain or immobilize.

It is not one of my favorites, but Kenpoist cannot discount any environmental advantage.

Oss,
-Michael

[Michael Billings]

Kenpo stick application is definitly not Fillipeno in application, and totally cool. Levers, fulcrums, controls, and immobilizations.

Oss,
-Michael

[Blindside]

I spent a day (yeah, thats right, a whole day. :D ) working with a noted knife instructor on flexible weapon defenses against the knife. Belt, hankerchief, t-shirt, whatever. Cool lessons on how to "load" a hanky for self defense, or how sew in a pocket ahead of time to make it easier. Against a knife I I sort of like it, but then I'll take any help I can get against a knife. I don't really like it in a unarmed situation though, I'm much more confident in my own hands in a case like that.

Interestingly, the Tracy curriculum contains several belt techs against knives in their curriculum. We wound up modifying a couple after getting info from the FMA guys, but some of the base techs aren't too bad.

Lamont

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Blindside
I spent a day (yeah, thats right, a whole day. :D ) working with a noted knife instructor on flexible weapon defenses against the knife. Hankerchief, lessons on how to "load" a hanky for self defense, or how sew in a pocket ahead of time to make it easier. Against a knife I I sort of like it, but then I'll take any help I can get against a knife. Lamont


wow, sounds like you enjoyed the day........ but c'mon..... a hanky against a knife...........?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Blindside]

Hey, take it up with Edgar Sulite :), of course that would be rather difficult at this point.... Anyway, you wrap/twist the bandanna so that you can use it to entangle and disarm your opponent.

Jim suggests loading the bandanna with a weight and using like a whip at the opponents face to keep them back and wary. When the opponent comes in they hopefully dedicate an attack to close the gap, and that increases the opportunity to avoid and control the attacking arm. Personally, I'd rather have a knife/gun/stick in my hand than a bandanna, but you can take a bandanna and 6 quarters just about anywhere.

Lamont

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Blindside
You wrap/twist the bandanna so that you can use it to entangle and disarm your opponent.

Jim suggests loading the bandanna with a weight and using like a whip at the opponents face to keep them back and wary. When the opponent comes in they hopefully dedicate an attack to close the gap, and that increases the opportunity to avoid and control the attacking arm. Also, you can take a bandanna and 6 quarters just about anywhere. Lamont


Indeed!
:asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Blindside
...but you can take a bandanna and 6 quarters just about anywhere.

Excellent point. I quit carrying my really neat Kubotan keychain thing because I didn't have a purse to keep it in :rolleyes: but a roll of quarters and a bandana might be easier to keep around...

:idea:

[Blindside]

Well its not a roll of quarters, it is just enough to load one of the bandanna tips (tie it into a fold in the corner). I've practiced on cardboard boxes and I can consistently penetrate 2-ply of cardboard sheets using 4-6 quarters. Any larger and the mass becomes a bit to big to accellerate and recover quickly.

Anyway, if you want more information on this material James Keating has some videos on it. I don't know how these videos are, as I don't own them, but I did learn this material from him.
Remember that the flexible weapon is a concept, it could be a belt, rope, bandana, or one of those stupid chains that people attach their wallets to. People earlier on this thread have talked about kenpoizing anything you have in your hand, and I agree, but go ahead and look around at some of the material already out there from other arts. It may cut your learning curve down.

Oh yeah, Jim's tapes aren't cheap, but they are gold. See here (http://www.jamesakeating.com/Catalg3.html)

Lamont

[satans.barber]

Can't help thinking a someone's going to end up very dead one of these days, thinking they can take on a knife with a hanky...!

We often get the rubber knives out, and try and defend against them, and I know for a fact I would have ended up dead every time.

RUN AWAY! :)

Ian.

[Blindside]

Gee really???

Yes I would like to run away too, I don't have the delusion that going against a knife is any kind of picnic. (That incidentally is why I have sought out experts in the field to train me, and no one has said that going against a knife is the best course of action.) I train like this for the cases when I can't run away, when I'm backed into a corner, or when I'm with people who can't run away as fast as I can (Grandma, mother, father, wife, sister, etc.)

I DON'T want to face a knife unarmed or ever for that matter, but just in case I also use and carry a knife.... just in case. If running away was the solution to all my problems I wouldn't be in martial arts, I'd be training for track matches.

Lamont

[pineapple head]

Quite agree with Blindside here.
If we are going to run away all the time , why the hell train so hard .
I know you are facing a knife , but even then by the time it takes you to turn around or whatever and accelerate into a run the guy would have probably stuck you by then.OR even may throw the knife at you , yeah i know its not easy to throw but the options there.
Bandanna is a good weapon....pretend you go to get your money then whip this thing out hard , you may just catch him enough to distract for a moment , then you have a chance to run like hell.
Anyway going to work now ,7.00 am here. I will make sure all my doors are locked you have scared me now..haha:D

[Wes Idol]

Try this with your training partners. Get about ten to fifteen feet away from one another, face to face. Tell your partner to try and stab you as you attempt to turn and run in the opposite direction...you might be quite surprised at how quickly they are able to get to you as you are turning and exposing your back.

One time I heard Richard Planas once say, "You should always face your work." That piece of advice is not bad.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

[Kenpodoc]

When archeologist/anthropologists evaluate medievil (and other) battle sites it becomes clear that a very large percentage of fatal wounds are sustained from the back while running. This is probably why Alexander the Great, the romans, etc were able to conquer such wide areas with relatively few men and casualties. I've never heard anyone say that you should try to get in a knife fight. Zack Whitson talks about training in Pekiti to run from an opponent in a controlled manner. Kenpo itself has multiple examples of how to get behind an opponent (Kenpo teaches us to turn and fight but this is an opportunity to run while your opponent has to turn and accelerate.) Learn how to deal with weapons not because you are likely to win but because it might be your only chance, and learn how to set yourself up to run successfully from a weapon yielding sadist, because your money won't be enough to stop the SOB.

[KanoLives]

I just concluded a few weeks of knife training at my dojo. My instructor advises to run if the opportunity presents itself. Because like many have said all it takes is one good slash with a knife to any part of the body and that could spell bad news for you. For instance someone has a knife on you and you make a move to attempt a disarm tech. Next thing you know your forearm or bicep is cut, blood is pouring and you can see right to the muscle that was cut as the fibers of the muscle begin to tear. What are you gonna do now as you start to loose consiousness from loss of blood. Lights out. Fights over. And I'm not sayinig this will always happen. You could sucessfully disarm the guy. But if all he wants is money or something that can be replaced I say give it to him. Your life can't be replaced. Most of the techs we learned were a quick couple of strikes and then an opportunity to run away right after. It definitely depends on the situation though, like someone pointed out being trapped in a corner and being attacked well in that case you have no choice but to defend your self. Here's an idea.....Take a training knife or any object to simulate a knife and have it rubbed in a bright colored chalk. Now have your training partner really simulate knife situations. I bet you find it suprising how much chalk will be on your clothes after the practice situations. And notice where the chalk marks are. It only takes one artery or vein to hit before you start loosing enough blood for the fight to be over.

As for weapons training. Why not? Anything to expand your knowledge of an art. Just my 2 cents though.

Later

[Goldendragon7]

That many are addressing the "knife defenses" and working on this category of Kenpo. This is one of the most needed areas (due in part to the advanced nature of the beast) of practice that I feel is necessary. We don't put too much into the "knife defenses" at the lower ranks other than to teach a few "ideal" starter ideas about them.

Real knowledge comes when you actually start to work thru the defenses and become aware that one small mis-judgment can be fatal. This is not so much so with the empty handed techniques (but can be).

Keep up exploring any and all avenues to expand your awareness on this topic...... !

One drill I like..............
I like to "knife fight" with white T-Shirts and magic markers. This can be with one or both having markers (knives). If you want to work on SD Techniques then a solo knife is good, if you want to actual "spar" then arm both with markers. You will have a lot of fun, get in some good physical training, get some great new ideas and insights, and get a big dose of reality about the knife.

:asian:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
One drill I like..............
I like to "knife fight" with white T-Shirts and magic markers.

Hey, great idea!

You are going to put some guys out of business when this gets out. I know someone makes a "marking knife" but I also like this idea because since the marker is not "shaped" like a knife it can increase awareness of the danger of boxcutters, screwdrivers, pieces of glass and other stuff that can readily be substituted for a knife.

I will bring this up at the studio ASAP. I know Crayola makes Washable Markers and I think you can buy a set of 6 or 8 for a few dollars. Then you could use your White Gi as well.
:idea:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by cdhall
Hey, great idea! I will bring this up at the studio ASAP. I know Crayola makes Washable Markers and I think you can buy a set of 6 or 8 for a few dollars.


Oh noooooooooooooooooo I've created a Monster.....

:borg:

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by cdhall

I will bring this up at the studio ASAP. I know Crayola makes Washable Markers and I think you can buy a set of 6 or 8 for a few dollars. Then you could use your White Gi as well.
:idea:

Orrr take your shirt off and train with nothing on your top, then you can wash the marker of in the bath, AND see how many cuts accross vital organs and blood vessals you got...hehe :)

With regards to running away, obviously you can't do this all the time, and I wasn't trying to say that's the only option. But, if you can, then it's probably a good idea!

Ian.

[pineapple head]

Could we not try wearing a cows carcus aover our heads and use real knives to cut into the flesh.:roflmao:

[satans.barber]

Wow, I'd pay to see that! hehe

Ian.

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by pineapple head
Could we not try wearing a cows carcus aover our heads and use real knives to cut into the flesh.:roflmao:


EWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

:anic:

[Kenpomachine]

Now, that could be SMELLY :rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Now, that could be SMELLY :rofl:


DOUBLE EWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww !!

:anic:
:barf:

[KanoLives]

Definitely :barf:

[Wes Idol]

I invite everyone to get their hands on real flesh. I've spent time in slaughter houses (refered to as processing plants for the industry), and I've skinned animals and cut meat as a butcher. Cutting into someone is not as easy as one might think. Also, just because you've cut someone, doesn't stop them from putting a hole in your head with a fire arm, or sticking their edged weapon into you before they feel the effects of "bleeding out."

Trying markers on one another is a powerful lesson about speed and range, but I think there is more to the subject than just that.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

[Kenpomachine]

The marker also teaches precission on the attaker's side :D

[Wes Idol]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
The marker also teaches precission on the attaker's side :D

Good additional point.

WI, HI
UKS

[Les]

Originally posted by pineapple head
Could we not try wearing a cows carcus aover our heads and use real knives to cut into the flesh.:roflmao:

It's all right for you guys.....

But I have to train with him three times a week.

If he turns up with a cow under his arn, he's OUT :)

Les

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Les
If he turns up with a cow under his arn, he's OUT :) Les


:rofl:

[cdhall]

On the topic of Running...

Mr. Swan taught me Early, like maybe in my first month, that your best technique is to avoid the confrontation altogether. So he said something like

1. If you see a place that could be dangerous, avoid it;
2. If you encounter danger, leave. Run if you have to;
3. If someone attacks you violently, defend yourself.

So the underlying principle here I think is that we are training for 3 which may come in many forms at any time.
:asian:

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by cdhall
Mr. Swan taught me Early, like maybe in my first month, that your best technique is to avoid the confrontation altogether. So he said something like

1. If you see a place that could be dangerous, avoid it;
2. If you encounter danger, leave. Run if you have to;
3. If someone attacks you violently, defend yourself.

So the underlying principle here I think is that we are training for 3 which may come in many forms at any time.
:asian:

Actually, we are in effect training for all three. #1 is where our mental and perceptual training comes in. #2 is where our spiritual training comes in, the mindset of the dragon. And of course, #3 is where the physical training comes in.

Just a thought. :asian:

[pineapple head]

LOL!

Cow under my arm..mmmm. She would struggle too much, plus she baths the kids training nights!:D

[cdhall]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
Actually, we are in effect training for all three.

Right on. The Prepatory Considerations, etc. I agree with you.
:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

What are the top 20 weapons we should have in Kenpo? and why?

:confused:

[satans.barber]

10 finger and 10 toes, because they're legal and you can't misplace or forget them ;)

Ian.