The historical origins of the Koryo hyung?

[exile]

I'm trying to put together an article on the 'handshake' between KMA history on the one hand and TKD technique, and its practical applications, on the other. In thinking about this stuff, I've been considering a link between the old, old kata Empi and the very modern TKD hyung Koryo. What I'm curious about is whether anyone has an 'inside track' on the thinking that went into Koryo. This hyung was one of the very early 'strictly Korean' advanced forms introduced by the KTA at the beginning of the 1970s, as part of the deliberate, public and very non-amicable divorce of the TKD forms from the Japanese avatars that the former had been quite transparently based on up to that point. It seems clear though that some of the Eunbi hyung movements (derived from the Okinawan Empi kata) were adopted for Koryo, and that the mid/high front snap kicks in the first half mirror the Eunbi reinterpretation of Empi knee strikes as high(er) kicks, incongruously interposed between close-in grabbing moves.

It looks to me as though Koryo was put together by a committee, and I'm pretty sure that's literally true. But does anyone have any sense of the details here...?

[rmclain]

As I'm sure you know, the 1970's Koryo Hyung that includes the double side-kicks near the beginning is the second Koryo. This newer version was created the same time as the Palgue forms. Lee Jong-woo pushed for the replacement of the original, which was only created by the KTA committee in 1967.

I can't add anything to this post on the technical content of the 1970's Koryo, as I don't study it, though I study EmPi. Lee Jong-woo was from the Jido-Kwan originally and I'm sure studied Empi.

R. McLain




I'm trying to put together an article on the 'handshake' between KMA history on the one hand and TKD technique, and its practical applications, on the other. In thinking about this stuff, I've been considering a link between the old, old kata Empi and the very modern TKD hyung Koryo. What I'm curious about is whether anyone has an 'inside track' on the thinking that went into Koryo. This hyung was one of the very early 'strictly Korean' advanced forms introduced by the KTA at the beginning of the 1970s, as part of the deliberate, public and very non-amicable divorce of the TKD forms from the Japanese avatars that the former had been quite transparently based on up to that point. It seems clear though that some of the Eunbi hyung movements (derived from the Okinawan Empi kata) were adopted for Koryo, and that the mid/high front snap kicks in the first half mirror the Eunbi reinterpretation of Empi knee strikes as high(er) kicks, incongruously interposed between close-in grabbing moves.

It looks to me as though Koryo was put together by a committee, and I'm pretty sure that's literally true. But does anyone have any sense of the details here...?

[exile]

As I'm sure you know, the 1970's Koryo Hyung that includes the double side-kicks near the beginning is the second Koryo. This newer version was created the same time as the Palgue forms. Lee Jong-woo pushed for the replacement of the original, which was only created by the KTA committee in 1967.

Yes, this I knew, and I know some of the nasty background to that whole business, thanks to your excellent background posts about Gm. Kim Soo and the KTA suppression of the Palgwes, Rob.


I can't add anything to this post on the technical content of the 1970's Koryo, as I don't study it, though I study EmPi. Lee Jong-woo was from the Jido-Kwan originally and I'm sure studied Empi.

R. McLain

It's going to be hard, without a time machine, to get back to the thinking in '67 about Koryo, that's clear. Few of those people are with us any more, I'd imagine. I was just hoping maybe someone had a lead on some documentation somewhere that hasn't surfaced...

[Miles]

The same committee members who produced the Taeguek series also produced the yudanja poomsae.

This is a thread about the Taeguek series in which I identified the commitee members:
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=449290&postcount=1

I don't know any of the original commitee members except GM Park though GM Kim, Soon Bae was at the Kukkiwon when I was there.

I hope to host GM Park, Hae Man again this year and you are welcome to come and train and ask him any question you wish.

[exile]

The same committee members who produced the Taeguek series also produced the yudanja poomsae.

This is a thread about the Taeguek series in which I identified the commitee members:
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=449290&postcount=1

I don't know any of the original commitee members except GM Park though GM Kim, Soon Bae was at the Kukkiwon when I was there.

I hope to host GM Park, Hae Man again this year and you are welcome to come and train and ask him any question you wish.

Thanks for your generous offer, Miles. :asian:

Gm. Park is a link to an all but lost part of our art's history. I hope some of his knowledge of those crucial formative years can be preserved. We have little enough that's reliable to go on even in our comparatively recently history, alas....

TKD needs to get some kind of massive, international oral history project going in the very near future, methinks. There aren't many years left in which to capture some of the key information about the art's childhood and youth...

[DarkPhoenix]

TKD needs to get some kind of massive, international oral history project going in the very near future, methinks. There aren't many years left in which to capture some of the key information about the art's childhood and youth...

Your mouth to KJM Choi's ears. :-)

[dortiz]

"I hope to host GM Park, Hae Man again this year and you are welcome to come and train and ask him any question you wish."

Always a good time. I have some Certs from special trainings with him in the mid 90s. He has great stories.

Dave O.

[astrobiologist]

Though I am a TSD practitioner, I know Koryo Hyung (or at least one of the versions of it). I haven't run through it in a while. Maybe I should and maybe break it down to see what applications I can find. Anyone out there have any advice for Koryo applications?

[exile]

Your mouth to KJM Choi's ears. :-)

More the other way round, I'd think!

I'm actually a bit surprised that more of this isn't done. Rob McLain's interview with Gm. Kim Soo (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43720) in our own MA magazine is the kind of thing we need much, much more of.


Though I am a TSD practitioner, I know Koryo Hyung (or at least one of the versions of it). I haven't run through it in a while. Maybe I should and maybe break it down to see what applications I can find. Anyone out there have any advice for Koryo applications?

One place to begin: I'd start by taking those front snap kicks in the first 15 moves to be knee strikes to a close-in controlled attacker's groin or abdomen...

[DarkPhoenix]

Exile,

Is this the Koryo Hyung you are talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek-2vo_wh4E

I think RMClain was the first comment on this particular vid on YT.

I am going to get video of the Koryo Hyung that we do. We do the WTF style, but it looks a little different in the beginning.

[exile]

Exile,

Is this the Koryo Hyung you are talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek-2vo_wh4E

I think RMClain was the first comment on this particular vid on YT.

I am going to get video of the Koryo Hyung that we do. We do the WTF style, but it looks a little different in the beginning.

No, wow—that's way different from the Koryo I meant. I was thinking of standard WTF Koryo, probably exactly the same one you do.

This one.... it has a number of elements of the KKW/WTF Koryo, but it's not at all the same.

Could this be the first, original one—the one that was was changed by the KTA a year or so after it was introduced?

Added in edit: OK, I just read the commentary on the right side of the screen—apparently that's exactly what this version is. Thanks for the link, DPhx!

[dortiz]

"Could this be the first, original one—the one that was was changed by the KTA a year or so after it was introduced? "

Yes.

[IcemanSK]

I have only seen this version one other time (in another Youtube video) but this one is done much better. I'm glad we have this available to us.

I'm sure the history behind why it was changed (in favor of a more "modern" TKD version) is interesting.

[SJON]

That's great. I've been looking for a video of that version for ages. It would be good to find another or to speak to someone who has actually studied it, just to contrast its authenticity.

There's a video of another version of Koryo here http://www.sungshilkwan.com/TangSooDo/forms.htm (the second of the two links), in which the form is the newer one but with a few interesting differences.

It would be interesting to find a resource showing the original versions of all the patterns. Over the last couple of decades I have seen forms changed quite a lot, not necessarily in the "end positions" but the "preparatory" and "in-between" bits. I'm sure this is true of the Taegeuks, Palgwes and KKW-BB forms, perhaps less so of the Chang Hon set.

[terryl965]

Exile,

Is this the Koryo Hyung you are talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek-2vo_wh4E

I think RMClain was the first comment on this particular vid on YT.

I am going to get video of the Koryo Hyung that we do. We do the WTF style, but it looks a little different in the beginning.


This is the first Koryo and was well before the WTF style Koryo. The problem we really have in the facts about this is, people have changed there minds on what really happened over the years for whatever reason that maybe.

[terryl965]

No, wow—that's way different from the Koryo I meant. I was thinking of standard WTF Koryo, probably exactly the same one you do.

This one.... it has a number of elements of the KKW/WTF Koryo, but it's not at all the same.

Could this be the first, original one—the one that was was changed by the KTA a year or so after it was introduced?

Added in edit: OK, I just read the commentary on the right side of the screen—apparently that's exactly what this version is. Thanks for the link, DPhx!

Yes this is pre 1970 alot of the old people lIke Roy Kurban and his group still teach this perticular version, I do as well.

[SJON]

So Terry, is this version exactly like the one you teach? If so, and assuming you have no connection with the people who demonstrate it in the clip, then we could pretty much take it as original.

[Aefibird]

VERY interesting to see the differences in that video of Koryo and the one I practice (the bog-standard WTF version). If indeed it is the "original" Koryo then it is a valuable link to the past.

I can see me watching that vid several more times before this afternoon is out! I always enjoy watching well-done video of hyungs, especially when they present a different version of the form to the one I know or am familliar with seeing. Thanks for the link. :)

[terryl965]

So Terry, is this version exactly like the one you teach? If so, and assuming you have no connection with the people who demonstrate it in the clip, then we could pretty much take it as original.

All the movement are the same Yes and I have no connection with those people in the clip what so ever. I would say this is the original the way I was tought way back then.

[exile]

Maybe it's just me... but this version seems much more Shotokan-ish than the KKW version that I learned. Does anyone else have that impression?

[SJON]

It's the long-lost Pinan 6 ;).

[exile]

It's the long-lost Pinan 6 ;).

You know... I could almost believe that!

[rmclain]

The version in the youtube video (where I made the comment) is a little changed from the original, but is clearly the same form. It is different near the end. Perhaps their instructor changed it. We've had this form in our system (as a 4th Gup purple belt requirement) since it's creation in 1967, though it was intended as a 1st Dan form.

I also have a copy of the original Karate Illustrated Magazine article (around 1969) where this form was introduced in print in America for the first time. It was around this time that Roy Kurban and others sent their black belts to learn these forms from GM Kim Soo.

I'll post a scanned copy of the article soon.

R. McLain



So Terry, is this version exactly like the one you teach? If so, and assuming you have no connection with the people who demonstrate it in the clip, then we could pretty much take it as original.

[terryl965]

The version in the youtube video (where I made the comment) is a little changed from the original, but is clearly the same form. It is different near the end. Perhaps their instructor changed it. We've had this form in our system (as a 4th Gup purple belt requirement) since it's creation in 1967, though it was intended as a 1st Dan form.

I also have a copy of the original Karate Illustrated Magazine article (around 1969) where this form was introduced in print in America for the first time. It was around this time that Roy Kurban and others sent their black belts to learn these forms from GM Kim Soo.

I'll post a scanned copy of the article soon.

R. McLain

I knew Roy Kurban was tought this by him but I a sure the ending is the same and yes exile it is very Shotokanish. Remember alot of the older forms-poomsae;'s are that way. Robert looking forward to the article.

[rmclain]

I knew Roy Kurban was tought this by him but I a sure the ending is the same and yes exile it is very Shotokanish. Remember alot of the older forms-poomsae;'s are that way. Robert looking forward to the article.

It may have actually been Roy Kurban's students traveling to learn these from GM Kim Soo and bringing the forms back to teach GM Kurban. I never actually heard of GM Kurban learning directly from GM Kim Soo, just his students, such as Michael Ward.

R. McLain

[Aefibird]

but this version seems much more Shotokan-ish than the KKW version that I learned. Does anyone else have that impression?


Yup, me too. I'm an ex (sadly!) Shotokaner as well as a TKD practitioner and that version of Koryo looks like it could be performed in a Shotokan dojo without attracting attention for being something different.

Very easy to see the links between Karate and Tae Kwon Do through that hyung.

[exile]

I knew Roy Kurban was tought this by him but I a sure the ending is the same and yes exile it is very Shotokanish. Remember alot of the older forms-poomsae;'s are that way. Robert looking forward to the article.


Yup, me too. I'm an ex (sadly!) Shotokaner as well as a TKD practitioner and that version of Koryo looks like it could be performed in a Shotokan dojo without attracting attention for being something different.

Very easy to see the links between Karate and Tae Kwon Do through that hyung.

Thanks very much, guys. I think it's extremely interesting how much divergence there is in the stylistic impression created by this original Koryo, created at a time when the 'de-Japanification' of TKD was only just beginning to pick up traction technically, and what the story was seven years later, when the new Koryo was adopted. Clearly, certain sequences of the former were appropriated for the latter, but were embedded within sequences which as totalities look way, way less like the karate sources of TKD hyungs up to that point than the original Koryo did. You can really see the drive for separation between the two arts beginning to take effective form...

[IcemanSK]

Thanks very much, guys. I think it's extremely interesting how much divergence there is in the stylistic impression created by this original Koryo, created at a time when the 'de-Japanification' of TKD was only just beginning to pick up traction technically, and what the story was seven years later, when the new Koryo was adopted. Clearly, certain sequences of the former were appropriated for the latter, but were embedded within sequences which as totalities look way, way less like the karate sources of TKD hyungs up to that point than the original Koryo did. You can really see the drive for separation between the two arts beginning to take effective form...


I was going to note that the older version seems "less Korean" than the current "more Korean" version. In post-Kwan era TKD, a "less Korean" just won't do. I'm glad there are still some folks who do this, as well as Pal Gwe forms.

[DarkPhoenix]

I am trying to figure out how to get the video I have on my crackberry to convert and upload to youtube.

The Koryo that we do is different from both of them. There are a few more techniques added in the beginning that I do not see in either one that I had seen on Youtube, or at a WTF school for that matter.


EDIT: Here's the video I took on my Crackberry on Tuesday night. It has the Kumgung Hyung we do as well as our rendition of Koryo Hyung.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKSZfsguJpc

[SJON]

They look pretty much like the standard Kukki forms to me, except that (a) our Keumgang has no kicks, just a couple of stamps, and (b) our Koryo doesn't have that hands-on-hips moment before the side kicks, and the downward palm block is in high walking stance, (c) we perform ours with generally smaller, tauter movements, and much more explosively.

[DarkPhoenix]

They look pretty much like the standard Kukki forms to me, except that (a) our Keumgang has no kicks, just a couple of stamps, and (b) our Koryo doesn't have that hands-on-hips moment before the side kicks, and the downward palm block is in high walking stance, (c) we perform ours with generally smaller, tauter movements, and much more explosively.


The hands on hips movement I haven't been able to find in any rendition of Koryo.

[exile]

The hands on hips movement I haven't been able to find in any rendition of Koryo.

Me neither... looks a little like something out of Palgwe Pal Jang, actually. All those body twists... but even there, the hands aren't on the hips... wonder where that came from!?

[Master K]

The version in the youtube video (where I made the comment) is a little changed from the original, but is clearly the same form. It is different near the end. Perhaps their instructor changed it. We've had this form in our system (as a 4th Gup purple belt requirement) since it's creation in 1967, though it was intended as a 1st Dan form.

I also have a copy of the original Karate Illustrated Magazine article (around 1969) where this form was introduced in print in America for the first time. It was around this time that Roy Kurban and others sent their black belts to learn these forms from GM Kim Soo.

I'll post a scanned copy of the article soon.

R. McLain

Master McLain is correct. This version is very similar to the original, but there are movements that have been changed.

[TKDHermit]

pardon my comment but i think the original koryo looks ugly compared to the newer one >_>

[exile]

pardon my comment but i think the original koryo looks ugly compared to the newer one >_>

Combat effectiveness has very little to do with appearance. Ballet, gymnastics... yes. Forms encoding effective bunkai... not so much. Since MA forms weren't originally intended to be choreographed dance performances, but rather summaries of strategic principles and tactical applications of actual fighting techniques, fidelity to some æsthetic canon seems a bit, uh, beside the point?

[TKDHermit]

Oook, you're entitled to your own opinion. ;)

[terryl965]

The problem with the New Koryo is the way it is tougth, like the double sidekicks going to the foot and then the cieling please, it is suppose to be knee and lower rib cage for SD purpose. When was the last time you ever seen anybody kick straightto the cielingfor SD? All in all we all have an opinion but the prooblem is opinion does not out wiegh the facts and application of said forms.

[Cirdan]

I`ll take the beauty of a functional form over showing off any day.

[exile]

Oook, you're entitled to your own opinion. ;)

Indeed I am. :)

And that opinion includes the view that once fighting techniques start being evaluated in terms of how pretty they look (in the judgment of whoever happens to be looking), rather than how effective they are, the art is well on its way to losing its combat content and becoming a martial version of figure skating, to be judged in the same essentially arbitrary way as figure skating is, with little more connection to unarmed self-defense than figure skating has.

And when we look at contemporary TKD, what do we see?... :rolleyes:

[DarkPhoenix]

The problem with the New Koryo is the way it is though, like the double sidekicks going to the foot and then the ceiling please, it is suppose to be knee and lower rib cage for SD purpose. When was the last time you ever seen anybody kick straight to the ceiling for SD? All in all we all have an opinion but the problem is opinion does not outweigh the facts and application of said forms.

That is one of the things that sabumnim stresses in our Koryo Hyung. The second side kick should NEVER go above chest level. The whole point of that side kick is to cave the chest in, not tap your opponent's head.

I have always been a much bigger fan of kata/poomsae that have an actual application. What is the point of the gynamstics and flips when it is something that will not be used in an SD sitution?

[terryl965]

Well can we see if we can make a difference and bring back proper forms to the Art of a poomsae?

[DarkPhoenix]

I'll be more than happy to be in on that action. I would love to learn all of the forms that the KMAs have to offer as well as the Japanese Kata which some have spawned from.

[Ninjamom]

The problem with the New Koryo is the way it is tougth, like the double sidekicks going to the foot and then the cieling please, it is suppose to be knee and lower rib cage for SD purpose. When was the last time you ever seen anybody kick straightto the cielingfor SD? All in all we all have an opinion but the prooblem is opinion does not out wiegh the facts and application of said forms.As far as bringing back practical applications, it would be easy, and this form makes an excellent case-in-point. Since we (the TKD instructors and students at various schools) decide what gets emphasized in a form through our judging and our individual practice, why not judge and practice as if the form is supposed to be done with a low and a mid-level kick? In fact, that is the way the form is supposed to be done, and I make a point of judging and teaching that way, whenever I have the opportunity.


Combat effectiveness has very little to do with appearance. ..... fidelity to some æsthetic canon seems a bit, uh, beside the point?This is not repeated for content, just that I had to ask.... how did you get the thread responder to print the little a/e character in 'aesthetic'?

[exile]

This is not repeated for content, just that I had to ask.... how did you get the thread responder to print the little a/e character in 'aesthetic'?

Well, on my Mac laptop, you would hold the 'option/alt' key down and hit the ' key, the one right next to the return key. That will give you æ. If you're not on a Mac, I don't know—any of you PC users out there figured out how to do this on your machines?

[Red Menace]

The problem with the New Koryo is the way it is tougth, like the double sidekicks going to the foot and then the cieling please, it is suppose to be knee and lower rib cage for SD purpose. When was the last time you ever seen anybody kick straightto the cielingfor SD? All in all we all have an opinion but the prooblem is opinion does not out wiegh the facts and application of said forms.

At my school we do Koryo with the kicks going to the middle and then upper. Which is not realistic for self defense because if you kick someone hard in the stomach their head will likely lower as they bend over. However, we are taught that we practice upper kicks to make our middle and lower kicks stronger. If you can kick hard to the head then obviously you can kick hard to lower targets in a self defense application. We are taught that you do not (normally) do high kicks in real life self defense. Just a thought.

[IcemanSK]

The 2006 Kukkiwon textbook makes the clear point that the side kicks in the current Koryo are to the knee & then solar plexus. In the dvd of the "details" of the poomsae they make it clear that the knee & then solar plexus are the proper targets for SD.

It's good to see these types of explanations of poomsae from the Kukkiwon.

[DarkPhoenix]

BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!

I found out a little bit about the version of Koryo Hyung that is taught at our dojang, and it seems that was the way my KJN learned Koryo KJN Lee. I haven't had a chance to talk to KJN deeper about it yet because of all the testing that is going on at the dojang. I'll keep you guys up to date once I get more info.

[IcemanSK]

The 2006 Kukkiwon textbook makes the clear point that the side kicks in the current Koryo are to the knee & then solar plexus. In the dvd of the "details" of the poomsae they make it clear that the knee & then solar plexus are the proper targets for SD.

It's good to see these types of explanations of poomsae from the Kukkiwon.

Here in another thread, I just said the other day that the textbook & dvd say that the targets are knee & head. I'm confusing myself, now. Knee & solar plexus make sense to me, but the textbook & dvd both say knee and head (chin to be exact). :idunno:

[exile]

Here in another thread, I just said the other day that the textbook & dvd say that the targets are knee & head. I'm confusing myself, now. Knee & solar plexus make sense to me, but the textbook & dvd both say knee and head (chin to be exact). :idunno:

And in the context of a supposed strike to the head, the follow-up cross-body knifehand strike makes very little sense, eh? Because if you've successfully delivered a kick to the head (a very risky move, IMO, but let's assume for the sake of argument it worked), the guy is going to have been knocked way back or onto the ground, leaving you performing a close-quarters range strike into the air... what gives?? On the other hand, a short, sharp strike to the knee, especially if you've got a grip on the attacker, will almost automatically bring his upper body forward head first—and there, a knifehand strike followup makes absolutely perfect sense. So the flashy second kick in the Koryo opening sequence doesn't seem to me to fit well with the surrounding techs, all of which assume a close-quarters context. The high side kick definitely seems the odd man out, in that company. This makes it especially plausible that it was parachuted into that particular sequence, so to speak, for reasons having little connection with whatever the combat logic of the original version of Koryo (which only has the one kick) was...

[dortiz]

Side kick to knee drops person lower and sidekick to solar drops front arm guard down..not knocking back since dropped arm fell on foot trying to catch or block. This exposes the neck/face.
Besides in real life any one strike would end most fights so we have to allow for some suspended belief here in order to string together the moves.

Dave O.

[exile]

Side kick to knee drops person lower and sidekick to solar drops front arm guard down..not knocking back since dropped arm fell on foot trying to catch or block. This exposes the neck/face.
Besides in real life any one strike would end most fights so we have to allow for some suspended belief here in order to string together the moves.

Dave O.

Right, but what Ice was talking about was the fact that in the KKW textbook, they are taking that second kick to be a kick to the face... like, a seriously high kick, not a mid-level strike to the solar p. It's the high kick in particular, the head height kick, that doesn't seem to make sense in the context of the other moves...

[dortiz]

Oops I misread. Well I guess the suspended belief portion takes over at this point ; )


Dave O.

[exile]

:lol:

[IcemanSK]

Here is an older version (a few years) from YOUTUBE of the official KKW textbook video. The current dvd has the kicks in the same places. The new dvd clearly says "face."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTU0jnGs4G0