Bruce Lee vs. Muhammad Ali who would win?

[Joab]

May sound like a silly question, one is dead and the other far into Parkinson's tragically, but back when both were alive and in their prime, who would win? I would say in the boxing ring, and with boxing style rules, Ali would win. He was incredibly quick and agile for a big man, almost a foot taller, close to 100 pounds heavier, and he would be in his element. In a no holds barred street fight, I think Lee would win with an incredibly quick kick to Ali's knee. Certainly it would be a fascinating contest, to see who would win, would have been a good scene in "Game of Death" to be sure...

[mozzandherb]

Tough question to answer and I dont think there's a correct answer, the only way to find out is if it would have happened, but with that being said I would go with Bruce Lee.

[Gordon Nore]

Actually, we all know the answer. Either Don King or Dana White would win. Big friggin' dollars.

[Andy Moynihan]

Right now? Ali.

(surprised no one got to that one sooner.....)

[seasoned]

Although I have a lot of respect for Muhammad Ali, I would say 2 hands and 2 feet are better then 2 hands alone. With gloves on, weight makes a difference, but bare fists and there is no contest.

[terryl965]

I will take Bruce in there prime and Ali today for the obvious reasons.

[arnisador]

Boxing rules? Easy answer.

Other rules/no rules? Who knows. Muhammad Ali had a lot of experience hitting people. But Bruce Lee had more tools at his disposal.

I don't think either would have been disrespectful of the other's abilities and knowledge.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

May sound like a silly question, one is dead and the other far into Parkinson's tragically, but back when both were alive and in their prime, who would win? I would say in the boxing ring, and with boxing style rules, Ali would win. He was incredibly quick and agile for a big man, almost a foot taller, close to 100 pounds heavier, and he would be in his element. In a no holds barred street fight, I think Lee would win with an incredibly quick kick to Ali's knee. Certainly it would be a fascinating contest, to see who would win, would have been a good scene in "Game of Death" to be sure...

I think it would depend on which gun each had, and how much training they put in at the range before opening fire on each other. I think Ali prolly coulda done it iff'n he could hild the shotgun up well enough. Lees little poodle-popping 9 wouldv'e been hard to aim worth a crap...lousy foreign craftsmanship, plus he didn't use high-quality ammo.

[Cirdan]

I think they would be quite evenly matched until Bruce brings his Lightsaber into play and Ali summons the Power of Greyskull. Then whoever landed the first hit would win.

[KempoGuy06]

im gonna go with Ali. Being a Louisville native myself I grew watching all the Ali fights. For some his size he moved like someone half is weight. He was amazing in his prime. So was Lee though we all know that, but i will still back a hometown boy

B

[myusername]

My money is on Bruce because when the proverbial hits the fan he can bend over and harness the full power of the sun that shines out of his arse. Not even Ali could cope with that heat!

[Brian R. VanCise]

You know Ali was a fighter and a professional one at that who was also the best at what he did. Bruce was a great movie star, very charismatic, had lots of rumors about his street prowess but........ no documented fights.

Okay Ali being the bigger, stronger, awesome fight history, over all more athletic man I think I will take him on that basis.

Now having said that anything can happen and Bruce was good so who knows as this is all conjecture! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[exile]

Bruce was a great movie star, very charismatic, had lots of rumors about his street prowess but........ no documented fights.


This is key, I think.

Lee was very careful to cultivate his persona as an effective street fighter, but there really is no evidence that would stand up in court about how good he was in an actual fight. And are we talking boxing rules, sparring rules from various TMAs, all-in no-rules streetfighting... ?

I'm inclined to keep my money in my pocket on this one.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ugh. Shakes head. Why do people suddenly lose touch with reality when Bruce Lee is discussed?

I'm not an Ali fan nor a Lee fan, though I respect both men. I'll answer based on what is factually known, not based on fantasy, conjecture, or fanboy-ism.

Ali in his prime: professional fighter. All he did was fight. He spend a lot of time taking hits from a lot of guys a lot bigger and a lot stronger than Bruce ever thought about being. And Bruce thought about being pretty darned strong. When Ali wasn't fighting he was training to fight. He studied and knew every fighter he went up against. He had the finest trainers and coaches who's entire life revolved around making Ali win. Also, most boxers have their own share of undocumented 'street fights' under their belt.

Bruce in his prime: professional actor. No documented fights. Hard trainer, no question. Superb martial artist, no question. Great innovator no question. When Lee wasn't making movies he was training, innovating, and experimenting. But he wasn't training exclusively to fight and he wasn't fighting on a regular basis. He put out seven movies in a fairly short period of time, so chances are, when he wasn't making, a good amount of his personal time was spent preparing for... making movies.

Lastly, regarding the comment that "Lee had more tools," Ali was the very man that Bruce Lee, by his own words, feared. "I don't fear the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks, but the man who has practiced one kick ten thousand times." Ali had practiced a small number of punches thousands of times over against the heavy back, live training partners, and against opponents in the ring. 61 fights, 56 wins, 37 knock outs. Ali also had more range on his punches than Lee had on his kicks, so it isn't like Lee could pick him off at a distance.

These guys weren't creampuffs either. Ali beat George Foreman, whos record of 81 fights, seventy six wins, keeps him to only five losses, same as Ali, and with 68 wins by knockout. I very seriously doubt that Lee could have stood up to Foreman. In fact, I doubt that Lee in his prime could have stood up to Foreman when Foreman wasn't in his prime.

So to answer the OP, Ali by a longshot.

That is no disrespect to Lee. Lee was a fantastic man and brought about a great deal of innovation in the martial arts and did much to promote the martial arts in very positive ways. His early death is tragic, but just because he died young and has a legend about him doesn't change the statistics or reality.

Daniel

[Xue Sheng]

sheesh what a silly question... didn't you see Bruce Lee vs. Kareem Abdul Jabbar in Game of Death :D

[Daniel Sullivan]

sheesh what a silly question... didn't you see Bruce Lee vs. Kareem Abdul Jabbar in Game of Death :D
Fight was fixed: Jabbar was deprived of his most practiced tool: a basketball to bounce off of Lee's head from twelve feet away.

Daniel

[CoryKS]

The answer is obviously c) Chuck Norris.

[Xue Sheng]

Fight was fixed: Jabbar was deprived of his most practiced tool: a basketball to bounce off of Lee's head from twelve feet away.

Daniel

OK then what about Bruce Lee vs Chuck Norris in the Way of the dragon. I mean Bruce did ACTUALLY beat Chuck and it is just not thought possible these days for ANYONE to beat Chuck :D

[Daniel Sullivan]

OK then what about Bruce Lee vs Chuck Norris in the Way of the dragon. I mean Bruce did ACTUALLY beat Chuck and it is just not thought possible these days for ANYONE to beat Chuck :D
Great movie fight! But just a movie fight. And movie fights are like WWF: fake.

Now between Chuck and Lee, I'd say that it could go either way, though again, Chuck has documented fights.

Daniel

[Xue Sheng]

Great movie fight! But just a movie fight. And movie fights are like WWF: fake.

Now between Chuck and Lee, I'd say that it could go either way, though again, Chuck has documented fights.

Daniel

Well then the obvious answer to the question "Bruce Lee vs. Muhammad Ali who would win?" was already given by Cory


The answer is obviously c) Chuck Norris.

:D

And there have been people claiming to have seen a few fights between Bruce and challengers during the filming of The Big Boss and allegedly they were filmed since these challenges happened during filming. But the Hong Kong Film industry of the time felt they were of little use to the movie so they either lost them or destroyed them.... allegedly

But that does not change my answer to the question "Chuck Norris" :D

[stickarts]

With boxing rules I would give it to Ali, with no rules I would give it to Bruce Lee, but I also would never necessarily consider that a given. Ali was bigger and could also be very surprising. Interesting to consider but we will never know.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why does everyone assume that a guy with no verifiable documentation of any fights would somehow magically win if there were no rules? Several people have made this comment in this thread, and I'm sorry, but the logic doesn't hold up.

Didn't some pro karate league have to change the rules to force more kicks at one point because because boxers were going in and cleaning people clocks?

I hate to say it but this mentality is one of the reasons that TMA's get knocked.

It is the same mentality that I've seen in kendo when a guy lost a match to someone else and then spouted off all this crap about Musashi and how if targets weren't limited then he would have done thus and so. The guy is an idiot. No rules mean that the other guy can do the exact same thing.

Pro boxers train at a level far and above that of a movie martial artist. So do pro MMA competitors. Now, Lee probably trained harder than every other movie martial artist of his day, and maybe of any day, but he was still a movie martial artist who's profession was making movies. All that flashy stuff he did was for looking cool in a movie.

I have seen numerous XMA threads where the entire board goes off about how the flashy stuff in XMA isn't applicable in an actual fight, be it tournament or otherwise. How is it that everyone somehow forgets this when Bruce Lee comes up?

Oh yes! He beat up a movie extra who ran his mouth on the set of one of his movies! Now it all makes sense.

Ali was full of bravado and he put it on the line and proved it in what was the biggest, most visible venue of the day.

Lee supposedly said that he could beat any man alive in a real fight. If he said this, he never did anything to prove.

But what was Bruce Lee really?

He has tons of rumor and legend, but the only actual fight mentioned was an unverifiable boxing match on Wikipedia against some guy named Gary Elms, a supposed three time champion (no federation or organization mentioned; big red flag). I sure can't find anything on the fight or even the man himself exept on pages that brag about Lee and read pretty much like the bio given in Wiki and in tributes in MA mags.

Admittedly, I didn't look that hard, but he doesn't even rate a Wikipedia page of his own, so I honestly can't take the claim seriously, nor that of three supposed knockouts in the first round against unnamed opponents.

So what is he? He's a guy who studied Wing Chun for five years, did some tai chi, some boxing and some fencing, then went off to create a style of his own, start a movie career, and train a cadre of loyal disciples. He contributed greatly to the promulgation of martial arts and made some fantastic movies and developed a fantastic system who's merits are accepted as tried and true by many accomplished fighters and martial artists. And he died at 33. That is a serious accomplishment! I sure can't claim that kind of accomplishment, and very few people in any field can claim that kind of accomplishment.

Look, I'm probably sounding like a Bruce Lee hater at this point, but I assure you that I am not. But for Heaven's sake, can't discussions about the man not sound like comic fanboys debating whether or not Wolverine could beat Spiderman?

Daniel

[exile]

...for Heaven's sake, can't discussions about the man not sound like comic fanboys debating whether or not Wolverine could beat Spiderman?

Daniel

Really, really well-put, Daniel. This is what I was trying to get at. Bruce Lee's greatest triumph, his real legacy, is the Bruce Lee in our minds, our image of him as this sinewy, whipcord-tough fighter who simply could not be defeated, almost a force of nature. And that's the image he worked very hard to craft for us. He succeeded, absolutely. But the truth is, we really don't know what his down-and-dirty fighting skills were. With Ali, we have a totally clear picture—it's all there, televised, against radically non-compliant opponents, in match after match. Ali wasn't shy about defending his title. And we know pretty much just how strong his oppo's were as well, because their records were out in public view in just the same way.

And Ali, great as he was, fast, skillful and fearsomely powerful with his punches... did lose, sometimes, to other highly skilled boxers. Joe Lewis lost, Rocky Marciano lost...it can happen to the very best. So no one should be too certain that on the day, someone whose knowledge of real-world violent combat we have only the murkiest idea of might have lost to one of the greatest boxers of all time, if not the very greatest. That's why I said that I'd prefer not to bet on this one. And I think the plain fact is, there's very little objective reason for anyone to feel particularly sure that Lee would have won, no matter how much they may admire him for his many world-class accomplishments, along the lines Daniel listed...

[terryl965]

Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1121503#post1121503)
...for Heaven's sake, can't discussions about the man not sound like comic fanboys debating whether or not Wolverine could beat Spiderman?

Daniel

Daniel that one is easy Wolverine with stoppage during the second round do to multiple cuts.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Daniel Sullivan]

And Ali, great as he was, fast, skillful and fearsomely powerful with his punches... did lose, sometimes, to other highly skilled boxers. Joe Lewis lost, Rocky Marciano lost...it can happen to the very best. So no one should be too certain that on the day, someone whose knowledge of real-world violent combat we have only the murkiest idea of might have lost to one of the greatest boxers of all time, if not the very greatest. That's why I said that I'd prefer not to bet on this one.
Absolutely. The only reason I picked one is because the OP asked and, of course, there's nothing on the line.

Daniel

[Xue Sheng]

OK who would win in a fight?


Attila the Hun or Genghis Khan in a knock down bare knuckled brawl

Or maybe better

Batman vs Jessie the Body Ventura following the Marquess of Queensberry rules

I'm sorry guys but these questions and ensuing debated and occasional arguments are just plain silly to me, but then maybe it is just me

Who would win in a fight, Bruce Lee who studied Wing Chun a for a bit and developed JKD and may or may not have been in several fights and is dead or Muhammad Ali who was a great fighter and is currently a Parkinson's sufferer.

Frankly I have never seen my Sanda Sifu in a fight but I am betting he could stand up pretty well against either and it proves nothing

I don't really care if Ali could beat Bruce or Bruce could beat Ali. I am guessing if both were alive and healthy that this would never have been an issue and Bruce may have studied Ali to improve JKD, who knows. Both men have done their share of good things and both have made their mistakes the rest is pure speculation


Sorry I just had to say something, I leave you to your debate

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that such debates can be beneficial. When discussed honestly, they force us to look a little closer at the people in question. We're on Martial Talk, so it is a given that we've all studied Bruce Lee to some extent or another, some even studying his system.

But how much do most people, particularly young people, who aren't boxers actually study Ali?

How many martial artists have an inkling of Ali's record? We all probably know Chuck Norris' record or at least have a good idea of it.

We all know that Lee studied boxing and fencing, but how many knew that Ali studied taekeondo under Jhoon Rhee? I did, but I live in the DC area and went to a Jhoon Rhee school when I was a kid.

That sure puts a different spin on the quantity of tools in Ali's box, though.

There's a lot of cool facts about Ali, and Xue, I'm sure that had he lived longer, Lee would have studied with Ali. Now that's a training session that would have been historical.

The wonderful thing about Lee was his openness to the effectiveness of styles outside of his base. He studied western boxing and he even studied fencing and applied its mechanics to his system. He also trained with Jhoon Rhee.

What Lee did was the basis for modern MMA. He also made the martial arts movie a viable choice for a western audience with Enter the Dragon.

Kept in the light of learning about people that we may not normally think about, such debates can be healthy.

Daniel.

[Xue Sheng]

I think that such debates can be beneficial. When discussed honestly, they force us to look a little closer at the people in question. We're on Martial Talk, so it is a given that we've all studied Bruce Lee to some extent or another, some even studying his system.

But how much do most people, particularly young people, who aren't boxers actually study Ali?

How many martial artists have an inkling of Ali's record? We all probably know Chuck Norris' record or at least have a good idea of it.

We all know that Lee studied boxing and fencing, but how many knew that Ali studied taekeondo under Jhoon Rhee? I did, but I live in the DC area and went to a Jhoon Rhee school when I was a kid.

That sure puts a different spin on the quantity of tools in Ali's box, though.

There's a lot of cool facts about Ali, and Xue, I'm sure that had he lived longer, Lee would have studied with Ali. Now that's a training session that would have been historical.

The wonderful thing about Lee was his openness to the effectiveness of styles outside of his base. He studied western boxing and he even studied fencing and applied its mechanics to his system. He also trained with Jhoon Rhee.

What Lee did was the basis for modern MMA. He also made the martial arts movie a viable choice for a western audience with Enter the Dragon.

Kept in the light of learning about people that we may not normally think about, such debates can be healthy.

Daniel.

Now that post I liked much better than who could beat who in a fight and why because, IMO, those Person X vs. Person Y debates in the long run tend to end up belittle one or the other.

Thanks. :asian:

[sjansen]

Boxing rules? Easy answer.

Other rules/no rules? Who knows. Muhammad Ali had a lot of experience hitting people. But Bruce Lee had more tools at his disposal.

I don't think either would have been disrespectful of the other's abilities and knowledge.

I don't seem to remember Ali ever being respectful of anyone he fought. He would have trash talked about Bruce's abilities and knowledge just like everyone else he fought.

I'd take Ali in a no holds barred over Lee. By the way, Ali kicks like a freight train. Does anyone know that he doesn't? If he has that many fast twitch muscles for punching he probably has the same in his legs.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ali's trash talking was also a part of gaining a psychological edge over other boxers whom he would be fighting. I'm not a fan of that, but I understand the principle behind it.

I don't know that he trash talked outside of that context (maybe he did, but I haven't dug that deeply into Ali's behavior outside of the ring).

Edit: he probably would have been respectful of Lee's abilities until a match was scheduled, then he'd have taken the time to trash talk right up to moment of stepping into the ring.

Daniel

[myusername]

Why does everyone assume that a guy with no verifiable documentation of any fights would somehow magically win if there were no rules? Several people have made this comment in this thread, and I'm sorry, but the logic doesn't hold up.

Didn't some pro karate league have to change the rules to force more kicks at one point because because boxers were going in and cleaning people clocks?

I hate to say it but this mentality is one of the reasons that TMA's get knocked.

It is the same mentality that I've seen in kendo when a guy lost a match to someone else and then spouted off all this crap about Musashi and how if targets weren't limited then he would have done thus and so. The guy is an idiot. No rules mean that the other guy can do the exact same thing.

Pro boxers train at a level far and above that of a movie martial artist. So do pro MMA competitors. Now, Lee probably trained harder than every other movie martial artist of his day, and maybe of any day, but he was still a movie martial artist who's profession was making movies. All that flashy stuff he did was for looking cool in a movie.

I have seen numerous XMA threads where the entire board goes off about how the flashy stuff in XMA isn't applicable in an actual fight, be it tournament or otherwise. How is it that everyone somehow forgets this when Bruce Lee comes up?

Oh yes! He beat up a movie extra who ran his mouth on the set of one of his movies! Now it all makes sense.

Ali was full of bravado and he put it on the line and proved it in what was the biggest, most visible venue of the day.

Lee supposedly said that he could beat any man alive in a real fight. If he said this, he never did anything to prove.

But what was Bruce Lee really?

He has tons of rumor and legend, but the only actual fight mentioned was an unverifiable boxing match on Wikipedia against some guy named Gary Elms, a supposed three time champion (no federation or organization mentioned; big red flag). I sure can't find anything on the fight or even the man himself exept on pages that brag about Lee and read pretty much like the bio given in Wiki and in tributes in MA mags.

Admittedly, I didn't look that hard, but he doesn't even rate a Wikipedia page of his own, so I honestly can't take the claim seriously, nor that of three supposed knockouts in the first round against unnamed opponents.

So what is he? He's a guy who studied Wing Chun for five years, did some tai chi, some boxing and some fencing, then went off to create a style of his own, start a movie career, and train a cadre of loyal disciples. He contributed greatly to the promulgation of martial arts and made some fantastic movies and developed a fantastic system who's merits are accepted as tried and true by many accomplished fighters and martial artists. And he died at 33. That is a serious accomplishment! I sure can't claim that kind of accomplishment, and very few people in any field can claim that kind of accomplishment.

Look, I'm probably sounding like a Bruce Lee hater at this point, but I assure you that I am not. But for Heaven's sake, can't discussions about the man not sound like comic fanboys debating whether or not Wolverine could beat Spiderman?

Daniel

Well said Daniel! That is exactly the point I was making in this thread when I referred to him using the power of the sun up his backside! LOL :)

[stickarts]

The way that the two trained were dramatically different. Training in a sport where you can only use your hands is very different than training to use everything as a potential weapon. Hearing the way people Like Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris talk about the skills of Bruce Lee are pretty good testimonials. I only met Ali once (although I watched countless hours of tapes of his fights) and I never met Bruce Lee so I can't have a qualified opinion.Only a guess. Either way, it would have been great to see a fight like that. Both men were very remarkable.

[Joab]

The way that the two trained were dramatically different. Training in a sport where you can only use your hands is very different than training to use everything as a potential weapon. Hearing the way people Like Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris talk about the skills of Bruce Lee are pretty good testimonials. I only met Ali once (although I watched countless hours of tapes of his fights) and I never met Bruce Lee so I can't have a qualified opinion.Only a guess. Either way, it would have been great to see a fight like that. Both men were very remarkable.

Well, we will never know, but I think it can be fun to conjecture about who would win this fantasy fight. I'm pro fun. With Lee's speed you have to respect his ability, in a no holds barred fight I still think Lee would win, in the boxing ring, Ali.

[stickarts]

Well, we will never know, but I think it can be fun to conjecture about who would win this fantasy fight. I'm pro fun. With Lee's speed you have to respect his ability, in a no holds barred fight I still think Lee would win, in the boxing ring, Ali.

I agree. I don't think most boxers are well prepared to deal with fast kicks as well as many of the other weapons that can be used. I am a huge Ali fan, however, realistically he did try fighting people outside of boxing at times and I read it didn't go well for Ali. Ali could be surprising though so I don't count him out 100%. :)

[Daniel Sullivan]

The only recorded fight that Ali had outside of boxing was with Antonio Inoki. The rules were such that Ali was not allowed to do anything but box and Inoki had to keep on hand on the ground. Thus Inoki spent all of his time kicking at Ali's legs and Ali spent most of his time dodging kicks. Ali did not fare particularly well and should never have agreed to such an idiotic rule set, exhibition or no.

The rules that were agreed upon were set up to specifically keep Inoki from grappling and Ali from doing anything but punching. In a no holds barred fight, Ali could have kicked, and he did know how.

I stand by what I said earlier: Lee has no documented fight history and all of his cool stunts were either movie fights or with compliant partners at exhibitions. And no, beating up a mouthy movie extra off camera doesn't count.

The big problem I see with this is that Ali must be evaluated on a technical level while all rules and logic are somehow dismissed with Lee. And everyone also assumes that Ali would just stick with queensbury rules outside of the ring.

Using that logic, Lee would always fight as if he were on a movie set with partners who are paid to lose. Anyone can be blindingly fast in exhibitions and movies. In a real fight with extremely noncompliant parterns, some level of technique is generally lost due to adrenaline and body reactions. Lee has no background to train around this. Ali does. Many years of it.

Also, Lee was never subjected to the kind of punnishment that Ali and his contemporaries proved that they could both withstand and deliver. After all, using Lee's own words, boards don't hit back. Neither do compliant partners. And movie fights don't count.

And if you don't think that being in the ring with George Foreman or Joe Frazier counts, then you'd be mistaken.

Another technical comment; Ali in his prime had well over a decade to hone his reflexes, timing and distance, to work an opponent's angles, and to set up and finish an opponent. This is not an advantage that Lee is documented to have developed to the same degree.

So for, nobody has gone into any sort of comparison of Lee's particular style and how it would compare to Ali's outside of the ring (accounting for Ali having skills greater than just his boxing skills). That would be an interesting discussion, but if it could have been done, it would have.

Since Lee never tested his style against anyone in any documented fight, we have no clear picture of how he would have fared against an opponent like Ali. Likewise, while we know that Ali could kick we have no documented fight in which he displayed the skills.

But I think that it would be fair to say that Lee would have been able to apply his style in an actual fight and Ali would have been able to apply his ability to kick in a fight (either by kicking or using his famiarity with kicks to defend against an opponent's kicks).


Daniel

[Tom Bleecker]

I think the major problem here is that many of those responding never met Bruce Lee and are overlooking his incredibly small stature compared to Muhammad Ali. When Bruce died, he weighed about 125 pounds at a height of 5' 7". Most of our girlfriends are bigger. Does anyone really think that he would have a chance against a man who is arguably the greatest boxer of all time and was nearly twice the size of Bruce -- not to mention the incredible advantage in arm reach and power?

[kaizasosei]

I agree with the above post, But i would add that i think that if Bruce pulled a fast slick move at the right time, with his skill and spirit wailing he could probably have taken Ali out but if they squared off most likely, Bruce could be overpowered. But if he managed to use his kicks effectively, surely that would be an advantage. Also, a spirit like Lee's could defeat anyone if given the opportunity however chances are, at the level Bruce was at, he'd have been facing problems although his striking was quite precise and strong, Ali being heavyset and larger as well as very quick and responsive would not be so easy to really hit with great effect.

[72ronin]

Both men in their prime,

Boxing ring - Ali

Octagon - Ali, but it would be close

Street - B.Lee no dought at all

[Tom Bleecker]

I posted this earlier, but it didn't post. Anyway, I think many who have answered this question overlook the very real difference in the size of these men. At the time of his death, Bruce weighed about 125 pounds with a height of 5' 7". Compare this to Ali's massive size -- not to mention his huge advange in reach. This fight would have ended very quickly.

[JWLuiza]

This is why weight classes exist!

[72ronin]

Mike Tyson doesnt have a massive reach either.
Surely outide the ring ie; in the street you could give the smaller man half a chance LOL

Thai fighters arent monsters either, good thigh/knee kick does wonders to bring the tall timber down.

If you wanna bring down a tree you start with the trunk :) (or the balls, eyes etc etc etc)

[Bruno@MT]

I honestly wouldn't know enough to be able to make an educated guess. Ali might win because he was a great boxer, but Lee might win because Ali would be inexperienced at handling kicks to the knees.

We'll never know.
It's like asking who would win: Tyson or Ali.

[72ronin]

Mike Tyson, next question?

if tyson get inside, game over Ali.

Hmm, wonder if Lee could get inside?

(besides, i think Frazier would have killed Ali if they let him have that last round. He certainly knocked the sense right out of him. If you know what anticks Ali got up to pre-fight against Frazier, you wouldnt have as much respect for Ali..)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NANLS0tn14M

[Brian Jones]

Seriously? Ali. Lee was a phenominal speciman and Martial Artist. Very powerful, for a guy 5 7 and under 150 pounds. But, and I mean no disrespect, but Lee wwas a teacher and an actor. Ali was a professional fighter. Not I had a few fights with an 18 year old punk on a Hong Kong Roof top or an extra in my movie. He fought, and beat people like Liston, Frazier, Norton, George Foreman, and others. He had a great chin and in his prime incredible skills.
We don't need to wrap Lee in a shroud of invincibility to respect his skills.

Brian Jones <><

[punisher73]

I posted this earlier, but it didn't post. Anyway, I think many who have answered this question overlook the very real difference in the size of these men. At the time of his death, Bruce weighed about 125 pounds with a height of 5' 7". Compare this to Ali's massive size -- not to mention his huge advange in reach. This fight would have ended very quickly.

Agreed, many people overlook Lee's actual size because he was so ripped.

Ali trained with George Dillman, so I'm sure he would not be totally unfamiliar with how to deal with kicks.

As to Lee's undocumented fights. Here is a clip shown on the History Channel that is supposed to be one of Lee's Hong Kong rooftop fights. They have always been discussed as how viscious they were, so even if this clip is NOT Bruce, you will see that these fights are not what they were made out to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTXtQogCNh4

BTW: Ali, skill and size are too much for Bruce to overcome.

[chaos1551]

Come on! Lee's chi would melt Ali's brain before they even left home to go to the ring!

[Touch Of Death]

OK then what about Bruce Lee vs Chuck Norris in the Way of the dragon. I mean Bruce did ACTUALLY beat Chuck and it is just not thought possible these days for ANYONE to beat Chuck :DWay off Topic, but Why was that Movie called "Return Of The Dragon" when I watched it on cable as a kid.
Sean

[Xue Sheng]

Way off Topic, but Why was that Movie called "Return Of The Dragon" when I watched it on cable as a kid.
Sean

I had to look that one up to make sure and I can tell you beyond any shadow of doubt that I was absolutely 100%...wrong

It was the "Game of Death" where Bruce fought Chuck (and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) and it was released after Bruce Lee had died

[72ronin]

You know, conversations like this, it suprises me the limit to peoples thinking..

Lets say the question was any Gracie vs Ali, You would all prob be saying Gracie!! Why?

You see, you would all take it for granted that a Gracie could get inside to grappling range, what, no one else could get to grappling range??

No ropes for Ali to use, no rules for Gracies to use.. Then the fight changes yes? Think about it, eyes are not of limits hell ya can bite if ya wanna lol, Now who would win.. Lots of variables to consider, like not just nice thigh kicks, attempted knee breaks - street fight for keeps. Still think Ali's hands would save him, then why are you bothering taining M/Arts then?
;)

Weight classes eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zd2YBeIJ_k


Ye of little faith :)


Hey, lets make it interesting; Ali vs Oyama....

[72ronin]

Nah, bored already, Oyama would walk through Ali's little slapping flurries lol.


Its; M.TYSON VS M.OYAMA !!

[repz]

Way off Topic, but Why was that Movie called "Return Of The Dragon" when I watched it on cable as a kid.
Sean

Way of the Dragon was the name of the movie in Chinese release. In the USA, Enter the Dragon was the first released movie of Bruce Lee (or first popular release), they released Way of the Dragon as Return of the Dragon, since it was Bruce Lee's second film release in the USA and was released directly after Enter the Dragon.

Fists of Fury also has a different title, I believed its called Chinese Connection.

[72ronin]

Fist of fury, possibly the best movie of all time.
The remake of fists of fury with jet li was pretty good too

[JWLuiza]

You know, conversations like this, it suprises me the limit to peoples thinking..

Lets say the question was any Gracie vs Ali, You would all prob be saying Gracie!! Why?

You see, you would all take it for granted that a Gracie could get inside to grappling range, what, no one else could get to grappling range??

No ropes for Ali to use, no rules for Gracies to use.. Then the fight changes yes? Think about it, eyes are not of limits hell ya can bite if ya wanna lol, Now who would win.. Lots of variables to consider, like not just nice thigh kicks, attempted knee breaks - street fight for keeps. Still think Ali's hands would save him, then why are you bothering taining M/Arts then?
;)

Weight classes eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zd2YBeIJ_k


Ye of little faith :)


Hey, lets make it interesting; Ali vs Oyama....

Hmmm. Blocked it.

With his head.

Are you saying size gives NO advantage? Do you think Gracie would fare as well as he did given the current UFC education?

Let's look at it from a probability stand point. Over an infinite amount of fights, I would say that Ali would win at least a 60-40 split.

[repz]

I never liked Bruce Lee technically, atleast from what i seen from his training videos. He was a big advocate of mixing gung fu with boxing, looking through his notes shows this, so obviously he appreciated the skill and power of boxing, and for him to say JKD training is superior is to say boxing is the ultimate system to create a superior formula. Well, this is comparing him to one of the ultimate boxers of the sport, the ultimate representative of what he chose to mix his art with. I have yet to be impressed with any training or fighting by Bruce, and I think a lot of people mix his amazing acting ability, and martial arts action scenes and choregraphy with real life.

I havent seen proof to any fighting accomplishments of Lee. And there are countless videos and firsthand accounts, and obviously world titles under Alis waist. He was untouchable, he was Bruce Lee in his movies, except he was doing that in real life with real people.

Bruce trained with Norris, Lewis, and many other martial artists. How come there are no records of him beating them? Lewis was a heavyweight pro karate champion (kickboxing), why didnt Lee jump at the chance to test his abilities on Lewis? How about when he met Judo Gene Lebell, a man that was known to take on any fighters at any time? Or any of the other champions that he met and trained with? Being such a strong supporter of testing abilities and sparring and breaking tradition you would imagine he would have leapt at the chance, but he never did (or if someone has proof, please share, I never found anything except more hilarious rumours that were proven untrue).

So, considering Ali is a fighter who fought world champions, and proved he is, and Lee didnt despite the chances he could have had with fighting martial artists and rumours (even the most out-of-this-world rumour about him cant compete with Alis real accomplishments) and lack of sparring or fights in his training history (but a ton of footage of him doing movie workouts), Ali would floor Lee in the first few seconds of a match.

[kaizasosei]

Did you see the movie Ipman yet? I know it's only a movie and i don't know to what degree it is accurate, but Ipman was Bruces teacher. Aside from his immaturity bruce was one of the most talented students.

In his movies, you can see the real aspect to his fighting. In the fight with Norris, they actually made contact.
Ask Norris or any martial artist that dealt with Lee, most everyone came away with some kind of feeling of learning stuff. Lee was the real deal. Just that he was terribly immature, vain/insecure and did not trust traditional ways enough and thought to cheat with the most modern technology and freely mixed styles-which can be both good or bad.
There is stuff that Bruce did that he himself did not understand at the time but it is something else. A genius is someone where you have the feeling, the talent is coming from somewhere outside of their natural realm of capability.
With that i am reffering to Bruce's movements in general. Distancing timing etc.

Bruce was not enough of an actor-and even if he didn't have that much vicious fighting experience in lifethreatening situations, his movements were generally pure reality-especially with timing and distance. Not choreographed always, but like a free dance. Only a real fighter is ready and eager to spar with anyone he can.

It does make me sad that he was such an out of control punk but i know that there are few that are carved of the same wood he was to such a degree. It's priceless. Too bad he started teaching and acting all allknowing before he was ready to show.
i believe, if Lee were to have developed his mind more and kept up what he was doing(or went to shaolin), i trust that if armed in mortal combat he just may well be able pull off a win against one hundred.






j

[punisher73]

Did you see the movie Ipman yet? I know it's only a movie and i don't know to what degree it is accurate, but Ipman was Bruces teacher. Aside from his immaturity bruce was one of the most talented students.



Bruce was not one of Ip Man's top students. He didn't learn the complete system from him and only spent about 5 yrs with him. As always, when students leave to create their own thing it is always they were one of the top students, never "they were alright, but lost to alot of the other students in chi sao" as was the case.

[Gordon Nore]

Way of the Dragon was the name of the movie in Chinese release. In the USA, Enter the Dragon was the first released movie of Bruce Lee (or first popular release), they released Way of the Dragon as Return of the Dragon, since it was Bruce Lee's second film release in the USA and was released directly after Enter the Dragon.

Fists of Fury also has a different title, I believed its called Chinese Connection.

Correct. Re-titling the film The Chinese Connection was a ploy to capitalize on the popularity of The French Connection with Gene Hackman -- that was a blockbuster film that featured one of Hollywood's most memorable car chases.

Back to the OP. Generally, I'd give it to Ali. I was watching the film Facing Ali on Spike the other night. One of the fighters talked about Ali going into the ring "prepared to die." Ali came from a tradition of fighters who were trained to go fifteen three-minute rounds. That's a lot of punishment on the body.

I doubt Lee, as disciplined as he was, ever had to contend with that kind of fighter.

[Sandwich]

This might sound harsh, but frankly I'd be surprised if Bruce Lee made it through the first round with Ali.

[72ronin]

This might sound harsh, but frankly I'd be surprised if Bruce Lee made it through the first round with Ali.


Nah, thats cool, most agree with that for the boxing ring.

How about Octagon? or the street?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Nah, thats cool, most agree with that for the boxing ring.

How about Octagon? or the street?
Octagon against Ali? Same result. Ali's ability to kick in a fight is as well documented as Lee's ability to do anything at all in a fight. Might be worse than in the boxing ring for Lee.

Against Ali outside of the ring? Bare knuckle? Lee is dead in half a round, and that is being generous.

There is no logic or rational thought in giving the nod to Lee. Only fanboyism.

Quite frankly, it is insulting to Ali to even make the comparison. Ali was a professional fighter. Lee was a B-movie actor and the equivalent of a second dan student who ran off to do his own thing. No fight record and no documented "street fights" to support his puffed up legend.

Keep in mind that Lee died in his relative prime and that is the way that we think of him. On the other hand, we have seen Ali age and decline, first as a fighter, then on a personal level. Lee's image will never endure him aging and losing his athletic prowess. The early death combined with Lee's larger than life movie persona served to create a legend, while Ali's real life record and personal struggles must stand on their own with no help from a movie career or an early death.

Also, it is in a way insulting to Lee. Every time these questions are posed (Lee vs. fill in the blank), they always pit Lee against guys with fight records who do or did nothing but fight.

Lee was not a professional fighter and I seriously doubt that he spent much time, if any, in street fights. That is not to say that he didn't ever fight or defend himself effectively, but he wasn't out there picking fights in the bar. I have been in fights and have defended myself effectively. I do not consider myself a street fighter and would never think of fantasy matching myself against a pro fighter, or even an amateur fighter.

These scenarios completely ignore Lee's accomplishments, and the were many.

For starters, Lee opened up martial arts themed movies to a mainstream audience. Lee was like the Elvis Presley of MA movies. Were there MA movies before Lee? Sure. But they were not widely viewed or accepted in mainstream culture. Lee made that possible. The same way that Presley made rock and roll acceptable in mainstream culture. No Elvis as a commercially viable act, no Beatles as a commercially viable act. Likewise, no Lee movies, no Li movies.

Lee had the uncanny gift of being able to distill the principles of martial technique into their essence and develop a means of teaching others to apply them in a way that was most suitable for them. Some people are much better suited to soft, circular stuff and others better suited to hard, linear stuff. Some are natural strikers, others natural grapplers. Lee recognized that.

And the results speak for themselves. JKD as a system has been proven effective by people who have learned it and applied to what they did and then made use of it, either in competition or in SD. If it was lame and pathetic, it would have died out. Lee was an innovator and he was good at seeing things for what they were and not for what they were presented as. In other words, he saw various kicks, punches, blocks, and ways of moving rather than 'Wing Chun' or 'Karate' or 'Boxing.' This definitely set the stage for modern MMA, but also changed the way that martial arts could be taught.

Lee's accomplishments should not be diminished by reducing him to a comic character in a fanboy versus argument. Ali's accomplishments should not be diminished by being fantasy matched against people who are neither professional nor amateur fighters (Ali was successful as both).

There is nothing wrong with fantasy match ups. They are a lot of fun and can get us thinking about the people in question in a different light. But matching Lee against Ali is like doing a fantasy match between the Saints and the top rugby team. Both sets of players are tough guys, but the game they play is very different.

If you really want to make a good comparison for Lee and Ali, try this:

Lee vs. Steven Seagal and Ali vs. Dolph Lundgren.

Daniel

[Xue Sheng]

Champions aren't made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them.They have late minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and will. the will must be stronger than the skill
- Muhammed Ali

Only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated can reach down to the bottom of his soul and come up with the extra ounce of power it takes to win when the match is even.
- Muhammad Ali

The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights.
- Muhammad Ali




All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns.
- Bruce Lee

Take no thought of who is right or wrong or who is better than. Be not for or against.
- Bruce Lee

Take things as they are. Punch when you have to punch. Kick when you have to kick.
- Bruce Lee

The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be.
- Bruce Lee

You just wait. I'm going to be the biggest Chinese Star in the world.
- Bruce Lee

[Joab]

I lived in Seattle for over twenty years and met many who were taught by Bruce Lee while he was in Seattle, my Sifu in Wing Chun was taught by James DeMille who was taught by Bruce Lee. All say he was a phenomenal fighter, and they couldn't do anything against him. Just because he was an actor doesn't mean he wasn't a great fighter.

I really don't appreciate the responses that belittle the topic. If you don't like the topic don't post, ignore it. Let those who want to have a little fun with a fantasy match have their fun, don't be a downer to the rest of us.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I lived in Seattle for over twenty years and met many who were taught by Bruce Lee while he was in Seattle, my Sifu in Wing Chun was taught by James DeMille who was taught by Bruce Lee.
From what I understand, Lee was a good teacher and put together an excellent system. His students who went on to become great teachers are a testament to Lee's success in this area.


All say he was a phenomenal fighter, and they couldn't do anything against him. Just because he was an actor doesn't mean he wasn't a great fighter.
Absolutely it does not mean that he wasn't a great fighter. But just because he made some cool movies doesn't mean that he was either. It is very apparent from seeing him on screen that he was incredibly athletic and certainly had the tools to fight a mean fight. Certainly his peers in the industry spoke very highly of him in this.

Was he a great fighter? Probably.

But aside from hearsay and anecdotes, there is no documentation of this. Though I personally do agree that Lee likely was a great fighter. Was he on Ali's level? Not likely.

But whether or not Lee was a great fighter wasn't the question posed. You asked whether Lee or Ali would win if they fought. The facts favor Ali. That does not lessen Lee's abilities in any way. Ali was one of the greatest fighters and arguably the greatest boxer of the twentieth century. Lots of great fighters couldn't beat him. They were still great fighters though.


I really don't appreciate the responses that belittle the topic. If you don't like the topic don't post, ignore it. Let those who want to have a little fun with a fantasy match have their fun, don't be a downer to the rest of us.
You posed a question on a public forum and got answers. You don't have to like them, but so long as you are posting on a public forum, and so long as the responses are on point and do not violate the site rules, asking people not to post is a bit unreasonable.

Daniel

[repz]

You can look up Joe Lewis comments on Bruce Lee being a fighter. In his own words he said Bruce Lee was not a fighter, never offered to spar him, nor did he ever saw bruce lee spar. He trained with him for 2 years I believe. You can google his interview.

he said many positive things about Lee though, but not about his fighting ability.

[Xue Sheng]

You can look up Joe Lewis comments on Bruce Lee being a fighter. In his own words he said Bruce Lee was not a fighter, never offered to spar him, nor did he ever saw bruce lee spar. He trained with him for 2 years I believe. You can google his interview.

he said many positive things about Lee though, but not about his fighting ability.

Interviews \ Joe Lewis – Bruce Lee (http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/joelewis.html)




DW Forum - You have said on numerous occassions that Bruce was not a fighter, but at the same time you say that Bruce was the first Ph.D in martial arts fighting? And you have also written about how when you first met Bruce you were really prejudice in those days, especially of little guys as fighters, what changed your mind? You also write that in those days you didn't care much for talkers, you say, "don't tell me how to fight if you never fought", you go on to say "I was a doer in those days, and I didn't care much for talkers. In other words, don't tell me how great you are, how great your style is, or weather your stuff works or not. Let's simply get in the ring and I'll find out within a matter of seconds". What was it that changed your mind and become one of Bruce's students? Why were your classes private, and were Chuck Norris, or Mike Stone taught privatly also?

Joe Lewis - Bruce told me he did not care about competing. He had no interest in it, and he said he felt there was nothing to gain by him doing so. Little guys, in my opinion, have always been the best trainers. This is because tactically very early in their careers they figure out how to conquer larger opponents. Mike Stone, who I respect, convinced me to study with Bruce. Martial arts does not have a long history as does boxing. Bruce Lee was a wealth of knowledge. No one knew what he had. Bruce Lee was proud to be the instructor of three world champions, Norris, Stone, and myself. With private lessons, he could customize each lesson to fit and compliment the attributes of the individual. I teach this way also.

[LuckyKBoxer]

May sound like a silly question, one is dead and the other far into Parkinson's tragically, but back when both were alive and in their prime, who would win? I would say in the boxing ring, and with boxing style rules, Ali would win. He was incredibly quick and agile for a big man, almost a foot taller, close to 100 pounds heavier, and he would be in his element. In a no holds barred street fight, I think Lee would win with an incredibly quick kick to Ali's knee. Certainly it would be a fascinating contest, to see who would win, would have been a good scene in "Game of Death" to be sure...

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Ali would have beaten Lee in a fight with the only rules being no weapons..

The weight difference was tremendous, the reach advantage was tremendous, Ali was a great athlete as well, I could see Lee leaving to avoid fighting, but I do not see any scenario where Lee wins that fight. I absolutely hate Boxing, but I realize its strengths, Lees knowledge would not have been enough to overcome Alis knowledge and advantage in virtually every other physical aspect. Just my 2 cents.

[repz]

Interviews \ Joe Lewis – Bruce Lee (http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/joelewis.html)

Plus theres also,


DW Forum - Could you answer me on one simple question concerning JKD? What exactly was Bruce teaching? I mean did he have specific way of treining his students or maybe he just said "well, we're gonna learn this from wing chun, that from boxing and those kicks from taekwondo"?Were there any specifics only for jeet kune do?So, have you sparred with Bruce Lee (because I've heard many versions of your fighting-relation ship with him).

Joe Lewis - Bruce and I would only do drills related to combat. We did not give them names, such as Wing Chun etc. If it worked we used it and I have always trained that way. I do not care about names or styles, that is all garbage---and I mean garbage. Either your kick or choke worked or it didn't: the style did not carry any super magic or extra powers.

----------------
Joe Lewis - I learn fast. I made black belt in one year in Okinawa in three different styles. I am a fast learning. I can get all your stuff in a matter of weeks, and I mean anybody who can fight. I worked with Bruce less than two years before we grew apart. We used to work together for 6 to 8 hours at a time. I would be at his house at one in the afternoon, and not leave until maybe ten that night. Is that one lesson? Bruce was not a fighter. He was an actor and a teacher. He was a great teacher.

[CoryKS]

Who would you take between all the guys mentioned in this thread... and Ditka? http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[72ronin]

Pfff, Ali was too pretty LOL to scrap outside the ring, without gloves and a mouthpiece i dought his will to fight. He a draft dodging racist, posted a link to it earlier..

I repeat, if Frazier was allowed out for that last round, Ali would have died in the ring.

Mike Tyson is the best in boxing history full stop.

If you think that all the best fighters in the world have stepped inside the ring or octagon your wrong, some train others etc.

As for weight and reach sealing the deal, thats ridiculous. Take another look, the more compact left hook of Tyson for egsample has WAAAY more power than Ali could ever muster..

Am i saying this in favour of Lee, no, becouse he chose not to compete. Why do you think Lewis spent 2 yrs with him if he wasnt a great fighter? In his own words Lewis says he dont waste time with pretenders, and he learnt so much from Lee for his own fight career!! Fight records are there for those who choose to fight, they tell you themselves that dont make them the best. It just makes them the best in that division/Association is all..

Are you saying we should all drop some sterries and head for the boxing gym LMAO

edit; no ones heard of "thumb in the eye" stopping boxing matches immediatly?, low blows needing recovery time?? Look at the variables again, this surely was not a question of Lee stepping in the ring was it!!
Lee could kick Ali in the nuts before Ali could say "im the prettiest" LOL

[punisher73]

Pfff, Ali was too pretty LOL to scrap outside the ring, without gloves and a mouthpiece i dought his will to fight. He a draft dodging racist, posted a link to it earlier..

I repeat, if Frazier was allowed out for that last round, Ali would have died in the ring.

Mike Tyson is the best in boxing history full stop.

If you think that all the best fighters in the world have stepped inside the ring or octagon your wrong, some train others etc.

As for weight and reach sealing the deal, thats ridiculous. Take another look, the more compact left hook of Tyson for egsample has WAAAY more power than Ali could ever muster..

Am i saying this in favour of Lee, no, becouse he chose not to compete. Why do you think Lewis spent 2 yrs with him if he wasnt a great fighter? In his own words Lewis says he dont waste time with pretenders, and he learnt so much from Lee for his own fight career!! Fight records are there for those who choose to fight, they tell you themselves that dont make them the best. It just makes them the best in that division/Association is all..



Tyson (in his prime) was a force to be reckoned with for sure, but he is/was not the greatest. Tyson never fought anybody who was good and in their prime during his reign. There were alot of other guys who fought lots of good fighters in the ring to prove they were the best.

Tyson was a HW, just as Ali was. He might have been shorter, but he was bigger than Ali in muscle mass not sure where you were going with that. Tyson was 5'11 and weighed 220, Ali was 6'3 and 230. Lee was only 125 lbs, still not going to be generating as much power as a HW.

Lewis stated that Bruce was not a fighter and didn't compete. Lewis said that Lee was a good coach. Lots of guys are, doesn't mean that they are good fighters as well.

I'm not an Ali fan, but realistically I don't see Bruce Lee winning the fight.

[kaizasosei]

Mike Tyson is the best Boxer i've ever seen. I hope he keeps in shape and stretches his legs so that he can still prove how good he is.

j

[Daniel Sullivan]

Now Tyson and Ali in their primes would be an interesting match-up.

Daniel

[kaizasosei]

yeah, that would be real interesting. Don't know if Tyson has changed his style some, but Mike's energy against Ali's economic movement...would be a sight to see, for sure


j

[Daniel Sullivan]

While I'm not a fan of Tyson, I would like to see him get his life back together and be a successful boxer again. From what I recall, his style changed a bit after Cus passed away, and not really for the better.

Daniel

[Omar B]

What I want more than Mike returning to the ring is I would love to see him open up a gym. I would beat a path to whatever door it is so I could learn from Tyson, and I'm sure many would too.

[repz]

Mike style under Cus was something called Peekaboo boxing. Its good for small fighters, especially Tyson since he was short in the heavyweight division, but still had power. Peekaboo is duck and slip and work close, hence the name "Peekaboo", where they hid and pop back out.

When Tyson stopped training with Cus, he stopped using Peekaboo. I remember a black belt article where they compared peekaboo boxing with wing chun. It was an interesting read, though i dont remember much.

[DeLamar.J]

May sound like a silly question, one is dead and the other far into Parkinson's tragically, but back when both were alive and in their prime, who would win? I would say in the boxing ring, and with boxing style rules, Ali would win. He was incredibly quick and agile for a big man, almost a foot taller, close to 100 pounds heavier, and he would be in his element. In a no holds barred street fight, I think Lee would win with an incredibly quick kick to Ali's knee. Certainly it would be a fascinating contest, to see who would win, would have been a good scene in "Game of Death" to be sure...
Who would win in a real fight? Bruce Lee all the way. Boxing is a sport with many rules, and boxers train to win by those rules. Kung Fu has no rules, and they train every part of the body to be a weapon. Boxing is way to limited to stand a chance. Put Bruce Lee in the ring and put rules on him like no kicking, no elbows, ect, and you have just turned the fight into a joke. Real fighting has no rules, the closest thing to real fighting in a safe way is MMA. Put Ali in a MMA match and he would be destroyed. Ali was a master of Boxing and the rules of Boxing.
Boxers only use there arms, and dont even use elbows, backfists, knife hands. Boxing is so limited.

[blindsage]

Pfff, Ali was too pretty LOL to scrap outside the ring, without gloves and a mouthpiece i dought his will to fight. He a draft dodging racist, posted a link to it earlier..
Funny how the last part has nothing to do with his fighting ability and yet seems to color your whole opinion.


I repeat, if Frazier was allowed out for that last round, Ali would have died in the ring.
Into hyperbole much?


Mike Tyson is the best in boxing history full stop.
Your perception of 'best' in boxing terms is confused.


If you think that all the best fighters in the world have stepped inside the ring or octagon your wrong, some train others etc.
Nobody stated that. You're assuming.


As for weight and reach sealing the deal, thats ridiculous. Take another look, the more compact left hook of Tyson for egsample has WAAAY more power than Ali could ever muster..
Nobody said weight, and reach were all that mattered, you're reading things into statements that aren't there.


Am i saying this in favour of Lee, no, becouse he chose not to compete. Why do you think Lewis spent 2 yrs with him if he wasnt a great fighter? In his own words Lewis says he dont waste time with pretenders, and he learnt so much from Lee for his own fight career!! Fight records are there for those who choose to fight, they tell you themselves that dont make them the best. It just makes them the best in that division/Association is all..
In his own words Lewis said Bruce wasn't a fighter, you're arguing with Lewis, not anyone here.


Are you saying we should all drop some sterries and head for the boxing gym LMAO
Again, this has nothing to do with what anybody said. You're reading what isn't there.


edit; no ones heard of "thumb in the eye" stopping boxing matches immediatly?, low blows needing recovery time?? Look at the variables again, this surely was not a question of Lee stepping in the ring was it!!
Lee could kick Ali in the nuts before Ali could say "im the prettiest" LOL
Prove it. Exactly, that's the point.

[blindsage]

Boxing is so limited.
Until you get your ass beat by it.

[Xue Sheng]

Until you get your ass beat by it.

I'm with you, lLimited or not it sure has great potential for beating someone up.

I have to say I watched the Tyson vs. James "Bonecrusher" Smith fight and I saw James "Bonecrusher" Smith throw a punch that appeared to come from the floor and had all his weight behind it and it hit Tyson right in the head and it did not phase him a bit. My first thought was "that punch would have killed me". If there is one thing many boxers can do really well it is punch. And if they are a real good boxer they can also take a punch.

I saw Ali Shadow boxing for fun once on a TV show and that man was fast and you could tell strong. And it was a relaxed type of strong I see in a good Xingyi sifu. I have no doubt he could hit like a truck. Bruce Lee was incredibly fast and also rather powerful and his basic idea was if you can hit me you can hurt me... but you have to hit me first.

Could Ali beat Bruce Lee or could Bruce beat Ali.... I have know idea and I truly don't care.. Both men tend to impress me with their skill.

[punisher73]

Who would win in a real fight? Bruce Lee all the way. Boxing is a sport with many rules, and boxers train to win by those rules. Kung Fu has no rules, and they train every part of the body to be a weapon. Boxing is way to limited to stand a chance. Put Bruce Lee in the ring and put rules on him like no kicking, no elbows, ect, and you have just turned the fight into a joke. Real fighting has no rules, the closest thing to real fighting in a safe way is MMA. Put Ali in a MMA match and he would be destroyed. Ali was a master of Boxing and the rules of Boxing.
Boxers only use there arms, and dont even use elbows, backfists, knife hands. Boxing is so limited.

Shows your limited knowledge of boxing. You are right, if you are only talking about legal shots in the boxing ring. But, most fighters know how to add in dirty tricks while in the ring. Some of those include eye strikes, turning a hook punch into an elbow, stepping on an opponent's foot to pin him on the floor, forearm strikes off a missed punch, hammerfists and backfists.

NOW, throw in the old school bareknuckle techniques and you have kicks and throws.

[Xinglu]

Boxers are great fighters. The idea that they are a fish out of water on the street is erroneous at best. I have witnessed first hand what a boxer of moderate skill can do to a TMAist of considerable skill. This particular boxer used the "peek-a-boo" method and demolished his opponent and did so quite effectively.

Boxers use a small amount of motions, perfect them, and use them in a wide variety of combinations. Just like Xingyiquan... To call that limited shows a fundamental flaw in understanding movement, or is it a prejudice of sorts?

[kaizasosei]

Because of Lee's immaturity lippiness and moral compass spinning out of controll, i can envision a host of situations in life where he could get his ass handed to him by a great deal of people. From the enraged old man to just another tough guy off the streets. Even if his kung fu is great and he's fast and strong at certain times, when one doesn't stand firmly believing in own actions, one tends to become unaware and the dumbness is expressed in all sorts of misunderstandings, harshness and rudeness sometimes accompanied with physical confrontation. Hubris, the quality that angers the Gods.

After all, if martial artists or warriors are seekers, isn't one thing that most seek the fight, or the ability to controll the fight. Well, I think the world is full of fighting, it's all about managing it in a constructive way. Most fights being nonphysical. Also the most dangerous fights are not always physical but spiritual or psychological. The police being spiritual and the looney bin the latter.


Ali was a great boxer. He also practiced karate. So in the case of matching lee and ali, one can see that it would depend on the conditions of the fight because both fighters are very flexible in style.
My dad has always preached to me about Ali and how great he is. Ali would kid around and write poetry about himself and his opponents, apparently with the effect of psyching them out he would be controlling the whole encounter on a mental level.
This is just what i heard so i don't know how true it is and all, but i have seen and heard some of those scences where Ali spouts off all the poetry and i can believe it. However, i dare to say that somehow in that playfull way there may be something similar to how lee was, but much much smarter.

With all this said, somehow i still think that in a given situation if ready, lee was such a demon that he could indeed hurt or conquer many opponents believed to be large or strong, etc.
However, i don't think lee was at the level of being able to dose that well,be able to win without hurting much, and if, as said, his own spirit doesn't stop the effectiveness of his techniques, then he would be extremely brutal maybe cruel but most likely destructive. I also don't think lee would have had the ability to lose happily or lose for the sake of avoiding a greater evil-like ****ing someone up for unjust reasons or in an excessively cruel way.
It's a great skill to be able to handle a situation without hurting. Like with jujutsu or aiki and not breaking or snapping. Playfighting? For real, One on one, the fight starts anywhere over some problem stupid or serious, and escalates to hits, back and forth. One hits, then the other wants to hit back,blablabla bla and can escalate further to brutality.

One thing that helps in a real situation is to have a pure heart. When you too much imagine messing people up and build up such negativity, when the fight happens, you'll lock up, freeze and not know your enemy.

So was Lee really acting in those movies? Acting like a fool for sure.


j

[72ronin]

Hey blindsage, you'll have to explain the meaning of hyperbole to me, im sure you know what it means.

And its fact, that Ali said to his corner that it was the closest he's come to death (vs Frazier), now, one more round Ali :)..
So there you have it, if Frazier was allowed out for that last round, it very possibly could have been the end of Ali..

How about Oyama vs Ali everyone :)

[Xinglu]

Hey blindsage, you'll have to explain the meaning of hyperbole to me, im sure you know what it means.

And its fact, that Ali said to his corner that it was the closest he's come to death (vs Frazier), now, one more round Ali :)..
So there you have it, if Frazier was allowed out for that last round, it very possibly could have been the end of Ali..

How about Oyama vs Ali everyone :)

Hyperbole (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hyperbole), and click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole) for an extended explanation.

[72ronin]

Thanks Xinglu :)




Blindsage i have a saying for you-

"Confucious say, Man with hole in pocky,
Feel cocky all day".

[repz]

Thanks Xinglu :)




Blindsage i have a saying for you-

"Confucious say, Man with hole in pocky,
Feel cocky all day".

Lol, this is hilarious!

[Omar B]

How about Oyama vs Ali

Oyama gets the nod from me, and not just because I'm from his linage.

[DeLamar.J]

Shows your limited knowledge of boxing. You are right, if you are only talking about legal shots in the boxing ring. But, most fighters know how to add in dirty tricks while in the ring. Some of those include eye strikes, turning a hook punch into an elbow, stepping on an opponent's foot to pin him on the floor, forearm strikes off a missed punch, hammerfists and backfists.

NOW, throw in the old school bareknuckle techniques and you have kicks and throws.
Yes I'm talking about boxing by the rules. We are talking about Ali, a pro boxer. Now if we are talking about a street fighter/dirty boxer, well then things change a bit.

[Xinglu]

Yes I'm talking about boxing by the rules. We are talking about Ali, a pro boxer. Now if we are talking about a street fighter/dirty boxer, well then things change a bit.

Ah, but Ali trained in TMA too. Furthermore, what makes you assume he would be limited to fighting by the rules of the ring while on the street?

[repz]

It might be limited in their range of techniques, but with what little they have is a lot. Evidence of how effective boxng is is a youtube search away. You got a boxer taking on a large group of people, a boxer taking on two guys, enough first hand accounts of many pro boxers beating people up in the streets, and even a boxer beating a cop who was obviously armed (yes, he was an idiot).

[Daniel Sullivan]

Who would win in a real fight? Bruce Lee all the way. Boxing is a sport with many rules, and boxers train to win by those rules. Kung Fu has no rules, and they train every part of the body to be a weapon.
And we see this tested how? You yourself stated that MMA is as close to a real fight as possible. WC and kung fu styles do not fare particularly well in that environment. WC is treated with derision by a goodly amount of MMA fans. What makes you think that Lee would somehow be the exception to this? Too-deadly-for-the-cage moves is not a viable answer.


Boxing is way to limited to stand a chance. Put Bruce Lee in the ring and put rules on him like no kicking, no elbows, ect, and you have just turned the fight into a joke.
Ali had training in things outside of boxing. He is documented to have trained with Jhoon Rhee, so it isn't as if kicks are foreign to him. No fight record in any of it, so I suppose it doesn't count. But then Lee has no fight record in anything and no documented fights of any kind outside of the movies.


Real fighting has no rules, the closest thing to real fighting in a safe way is MMA. Put Ali in a MMA match and he would be destroyed.
Now he would be. The man has Parkinsons. Had MMA in its current form been around at the time Ali was in his prime, however, he would certainly have trained for it before entering. Lee would have likely struggled more than Ali, not having any documented fights, in or out of competition. It is unlikely that he could have withstood the punishment the way that Ali in his prime is factually documented to have been able to.

Also, boxers have historically fared quite well against multifaceted strikers of other arts. The real question would be how Ali would handle grappling, which is not something that Lee was particularly known for (though I am sure that he had some level of grappling training under his belt, it certainly was not on the level of modern MMA fighters). It is also something that Lee would have to contend with as well.


Ali was a master of Boxing and the rules of Boxing.
Boxers only use there arms, and dont even use elbows, backfists, knife hands. Boxing is so limited.
This is kind of a tired argument and a flawed argument as well. This is really the only argument that anyone can make on Lee's behalf. Criticize Ali and the sport that he competed in because there really is nothing factual to base Lee's performance in a real fight upon. Ali outmatched Lee in every conceivable way in terms of a fight. Consider also that Ali was the kind of fighter that Lee specifically stated that he feared: the man who had practiced a limited few techniques thousands upon thousands of times.
"I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks, but the man who has practiced one kick ten thousand times"

Before you ask if Lee could beat Ali in a fight, you must first ask yourself if he could beat George Foreman or Joe Frazier. Foreman in particular, who was, and likely still is, insanely durable and and insanely powerful. I question whether Lee in his prime could beat Foreman as his is now, let alone in Foreman's prime. Frazier and Ali in their prime would be out of the question.

Keep in mind that Lee set out to do something other than, and in my opinion, bigger than, just being a great fighter. Lee set out to be a star (and he succeeded) and to develop a system that would create great fighters (likewise, he succeeded). Had Lee lived, he likely would have continued to raise the bar on fight choreography and on production quality of MA movies in cinema, two bars that he set higher than anyone else at the time. More importantly, he likely would have been regarded as a trainer of fighters and the father of a very advanced and effective hybrid system and for his philosophy in MA (the latter two he has in fact achieved), which really were his true strengths.

Just to clarify, yes, I believe that Lee was certainly capable of fighting and defending himself. In no way do I mean to imply that he was some kind of paper tiger. Certainly, effective MA and what makes MA great goes well beyond fight records. Both Lee and Ali demonstrated this.

Now here is a question: How would Ali in his prime fare in modern MMA with Lee as his trainer and Lee fully versed in the rules of modern MMA? Now that would be a trainer/fighter combination that would have serious potential.

Daniel

[Joab]

From what I understand, Lee was a good teacher and put together an excellent system. His students who went on to become great teachers are a testament to Lee's success in this area.

What you understand is wrong. They told me he wasn't a very good teacher, and in fact used his students as punching bags. But he was a phenomenal fighter.

Absolutely it does not mean that he wasn't a great fighter. But just because he made some cool movies doesn't mean that he was either. It is very apparent from seeing him on screen that he was incredibly athletic and certainly had the tools to fight a mean fight. Certainly his peers in the industry spoke very highly of him in this.

Was he a great fighter? Probably.

But aside from hearsay and anecdotes, there is no documentation of this. Though I personally do agree that Lee likely was a great fighter. Was he on Ali's level? Not likely.

But whether or not Lee was a great fighter wasn't the question posed. You asked whether Lee or Ali would win if they fought. The facts favor Ali. That does not lessen Lee's abilities in any way. Ali was one of the greatest fighters and arguably the greatest boxer of the twentieth century. Lots of great fighters couldn't beat him. They were still great fighters though.


You posed a question on a public forum and got answers. You don't have to like them, but so long as you are posting on a public forum, and so long as the responses are on point and do not violate the site rules, asking people not to post is a bit unreasonable.

I think if you don't like a post ignore it. Let those who want to have a little fun speculate. It reminds of a guy who goes to party and does everything he can to spoil everybody's fun. And I will repeat, if you don't like the post ignore it, I think it is very rude and party pooping. If you don't like what I'm writing-tough!

Daniel

Daniel, have a nice day.

[Daniel Sullivan]

What you understand is wrong. They told me he wasn't a very good teacher, and in fact used his students as punching bags.
So you say that he was a lousy teacher, abusive to his students and has a rep based on nothing but anecdotes and hearsay. I was trying to say say something positive about the man, but if it is unwarranted then so be it.


But he was a phenomenal fighter.
I already stated that I had no doubts about his ability in this area, though whether or not he was phenomenal (as opposed to simply quite good or great) will never truly be known due to lack of documentation. He certainly was a phenomenal athlete. No debate there.

Of course that was not the premise of your thread. You asked whether or not he could beat Ali in his prime. Which is an entirely different subject. A lot of phenomenal fighters couldn't beat Ali in his prime. That did not make them any less phenomenal. The fact that you cannot see that is really your issue, not mine.


I think if you don't like a post ignore it. Let those who want to have a little fun speculate.
I'm not stopping them in any way. I'm even participating. I'm simply speculating in Ali's favor and can give factual reasons as to why without having to resort to anecdotes and hearsay. That is, by the way, positively contributing to your thread. Whether or not you can see that is your own affair.


It reminds of a guy who goes to party and does everything he can to spoil everybody's fun. And I will repeat, if you don't like the post ignore it,
Same to you, minus the preceding editorial comment.


I think it is very rude and party pooping. If you don't like what I'm writing-tough!
Rude to be involved in a public discussion? Or rude because I complicate the issue with facts? As for ignoring your posts, I will do so if I choose. Or I will respond if I choose, as this is a public forum. If you do not want responses that disagree with you or dispute you, then write a blog or don't post on a public forum. So long as you post on a public forum, you have the potential for responses that disagree with your POV. Just as I do.


Daniel, have a nice day.
You too.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

Now if we are talking about a street fighter/dirty boxer, well then things change a bit.
Of which Lee was neither.

Ali's training in MA outside of boxing has already been addressed multiple times. Neither he nor Lee has any documented record of using any MA training in street fights.

Both had the training to deliver and defend against kicks. Only one (Ali) has a record of fighting resisting opponents of exceeding ability outside of the gym and movie set and being so successful at doing so that he is considered to be one of the greatest of all time.

You still have one opponent with a substantial reach, weight, and power advantage who may have also been the equal of the other in terms of speed.

So what changes?

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

How about Oyama vs Ali everyone :)In the boxing ring? Ali. In the no holds barred street fight that people keep mentioning, tough call there. Both men proved their mettle against resisting opponents and both were extremely tough.

Really it would depend upon who was able to control the fight in terms of pace and particularly distance.

If I had to pick one, it would still be Ali, mainly due to size reach and the speed he had for his size and his demonstrated ability to manage fights against a wide range of opponents. If Oyama controlled the fight, however, Ali would be in serious trouble. Then there is the question of grappling coming into play. I have no idea how good either man was in that area.

Daniel

[Xue Sheng]

But what if Lee showed up with a wooden bench and a nine section whip and Ali brought a folding steel chair and a trident ;)

We all do realize that Bruce Lee is dead and Ali has Parkinson's disease right.

I doubt if Ali and Lee would have taken this discussion as seriously back in their prime... or when Lee was alive

[repz]

Oyama had blackbelts in karate and judo, so he had many ranges. And low kicks have been known to destroy boxers, i started as a boxer/american kickboxer, and low kicks really screwed me up back then. Its such an alien concept when you arent used to it, youd be surprised how easy it is to get koed with leg kicks on an untrained unconditioned figher.

Theres a video of Muay Thia vs boxing, and the boxer was koed on leg kicks alone, it should still be on youtube.

[Joab]

So you say that he was a lousy teacher, abusive to his students and has a rep based on nothing but anecdotes and hearsay. I was trying to say say something positive about the man, but if it is unwarranted then so be it.

One student of Lee's said he used his students as punching bags, and was not a good teacher and I want to make it clear it was not James Demille. I should have clarified that earlier.


I already stated that I had no doubts about his ability in this area, though whether or not he was phenomenal (as opposed to simply quite good or great) will never truly be known due to lack of documentation. He certainly was a phenomenal athlete. No debate there.

I'm convinced he was a phenomenal fighter and your not. End of discussion.

Of course that was not the premise of your thread. You asked whether or not he could beat Ali in his prime. Which is an entirely different subject. A lot of phenomenal fighters couldn't beat Ali in his prime. That did not make them any less phenomenal. The fact that you cannot see that is really your issue, not mine.

I conceded that I believed Ali would beat him in a boxing match, I do believe Lee would take out Ali in a no holds barred street fight in his prime, but we will never know.

I'm not stopping them in any way. I'm even participating. I'm simply speculating in Ali's favor and can give factual reasons as to why without having to resort to anecdotes and hearsay. That is, by the way, positively contributing to your thread. Whether or not you can see that is your own affair.

I didn't have any problems with you doing that. It was more "why do people lose touch with reality when discussing Bruce Lee" that bothered me, in reality he was incredibly fast with outstanding power and technique. I thought you had written worse than that actually, challenging the very premise of the thread, must have been a different poster.


Same to you, minus the preceding editorial comment.


Rude to be involved in a public discussion? Or rude because I complicate the issue with facts? As for ignoring your posts, I will do so if I choose. Or I will respond if I choose, as this is a public forum. If you do not want responses that disagree with you or dispute you, then write a blog or don't post on a public forum. So long as you post on a public forum, you have the potential for responses that disagree with your POV. Just as I do.

I liked most of what you wrote, I think it was a different poster I had in mind after reading your initial post. I don't have any problem with you believing Ali would defeat Lee. Those who believe there is no point in writing such a post in the first place should simply ignore it, as I do when I see posts that I think are really ridiculous.


You too.

Daniel

It was a different poster I was referring to by and large. Live long and prosper Daniel.

[Joab]

sheesh what a silly question... didn't you see Bruce Lee vs. Kareem Abdul Jabbar in Game of Death :D

If its a silly question ignore it, although I appreciate the humor in your response. I did admit it might sound like a silly question in my original post, but it can be fun to conjecture a fantasy fight even if it can never happen. The question was originally posted in a "Human Weapon" discussion forum some time back by someone other than me and elicited good discussion, some of the posts in this thread were good as well, including most of what came from Daniel Sullivan.

[Joab]

But what if Lee showed up with a wooden bench and a nine section whip and Ali brought a folding steel chair and a trident ;)

We all do realize that Bruce Lee is dead and Ali has Parkinson's disease right.

I doubt if Ali and Lee would have taken this discussion as seriously back in their prime... or when Lee was alive

It would have been an interesting exhibition fight, although the only way Bruce could win is if there were no rules at all in my opinion and I don't think Ali would risk the ability to walk for months, years or perhaps the rest of his life. Ali would have nothing to gain and everything to lose, as would Bruce, it likely would never have happened.

It is true that they say a good big man will win over a good small man, but with Lee's speed I think he would win in a no holds barred street fight. In a fight with rules that prohibit low kicks Ali would win big time in my opinion. They actually had to slow down the film when filming one kick Lee made in "Enter the Dragon" because the kick was so quick in live motion it looked fake.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm convinced he was a phenomenal fighter and your not. End of discussion.
It isn't a question of being unconvinced. I am open to the idea that he was, and he certainly had all of the tools to be. It is only the lack of documented fights that keeps me from saying yes, he was. Likewise, lack of documentation does not mean that he wasn't.

I will say that he was a phenomenal martial artist. I generally do not like the term, but there are a few people who actually and legitimately embody the term and Lee was one of them.


I conceded that I believed Ali would beat him in a boxing match, I do believe Lee would take out Ali in a no holds barred street fight in his prime, but we will never know.
No, we won't ever know for sure. I would enjoy a reasonably technical explanation from any of those who pick Lee as to why. A technical analysis that does not sandbag Ali. Unfortunately, I am not sure that enough hard information about Lee as a fighter exists to make such a comparison. Ali, of course, is a statistician's dream.


I didn't have any problems with you doing that. It was more "why do people lose touch with reality when discussing Bruce Lee" that bothered me, in reality he was incredibly fast with outstanding power and technique.
I can see where that would bother you. It was meant as a generality. Most often, people saying that Lee could beat fill-in-blank have no basis for the statement. That Lee was incredibly fast and had outstanding power and technique is a given. But the leap to him beating Ali in a no holds barred fight is nearly always made with the assumption that Ali couldn't do anything but box, which is false. The other issue is that people are holding up a man who has no fight record or been in any documented fights and making the statement that he could have or would have beaten champion level fighters, which in my opinion, is generally (not always) absurd.

Thus the comparisons frequently do not have a basis in reality because they generally confine the championship fighter to only what they could see of him in their chosen sport without taking the time to learn about what sort of training that fighter has (if any) in other areas.


I thought you had written worse than that actually, challenging the very premise of the thread, must have been a different poster.
Well, if it was me, then I probably said something less articulately than I could have or should have. Could have been a kneejerk reaction on my part. I reread some of my posts and I can see where I came across as a bit snarkey, over the top, or a bit of both.


I liked most of what you wrote, I think it was a different poster I had in mind after reading your initial post. I don't have any problem with you believing Ali would defeat Lee. Those who believe there is no point in writing such a post in the first place should simply ignore it, as I do when I see posts that I think are really ridiculous.
Just to be clear, I am not an Ali fan. There are fighters for whom I have a much greater affinity. Unfortunately, facts being what they are, Ali in his prime could probably have beaten many of them, both in and out of the ring. Heretical as it may sound, I'd pick Ali in his prime over Chuck Norris in his.

Daniel

[Joab]

Just to be clear, I am not an Ali fan. There are fighters for whom I have a much greater affinity. Unfortunately, facts being what they are, Ali in his prime could probably have beaten many of them, both in and out of the ring. Heretical as it may sound, I'd pick Ali in his prime over Chuck Norris in his.

Daniel[/quote]

Well, I have a lot of respect for Chuck Norris as a man. he has done a lot of good in the world with his kickstart programs, diverting at risk youth into martial arts training and helping them form self discipline and respect for themselves and others and helping them gain a work ethic and some good martial arts skills. I appreciate his courageous stand for Jesus Christ, it is good to see an Evangelical Christian who is also a celebrity who has not been tarnished by scandal. In a fight with Ali, Ali all the way in my opinion, but we will never know, while both were in their prime. Norris could defeat Ali quite easily now of course, as could a lot of old ladies, but that is of course the result of Parkinsons disease.

[Daniel Sullivan]

It would have been an interesting exhibition fight, although the only way Bruce could win is if there were no rules at all in my opinion and I don't think Ali would risk the ability to walk for months, years or perhaps the rest of his life. Ali would have nothing to gain and everything to lose, as would Bruce, it likely would never have happened.
Actually, Ali did engage in a fight that compromised his legs. You might find this article interesting. http://www.prophetsplace.com/aliinoki.shtml

The fight was a joke and was intended as a payday for both fighters. Ali spent the whole fight defending against kicks and Inoki spent the whole night trying to get Ali to come down and grapple with him. The rules that had been devised were pathetic to say the least and stacked against Inoki.

An interesting comment made by the author was that due to the Ali/Inoki fight, MMA in the US was set back substantially.


It is true that they say a good big man will win over a good small man, but with Lee's speed I think he would win in a no holds barred street fight. In a fight with rules that prohibit low kicks Ali would win big time in my opinion. They actually had to slow down the film when filming one kick Lee made in "Enter the Dragon" because the kick was so quick in live motion it looked fake.
Ultimately, the biggest factor would be whether or not Lee could overcome Ali's ability to control the fight. Ali in his prime was very, very fast, particularly for a man of his size, and Lee, documented fight or no, was lightning quick. If Ali controlled the distances and timing, his reach was enough that he could have picked Lee apart without ever allowing Lee close enough make use of his own attacks. Ali had made a career out of controlling the fight, which is really a major factor, more so in my experience than speed.

Now if Lee were able to keep Ali from controlling the fight, either in part or at all, then it would come down to who could land the decisive blows first.

Daniel

[Xue Sheng]

Bruce Lee vs. Muhammad Ali

Then

http://images.easyart.com/i/prints/rw/lg/3/3/Celebrity-Image-Muhammad-Ali--Pose--331397.jpg

VS

http://www.hybridmartialart.com/Instructors/images/Bruce%20Lee-JKD.jpg

And Now

http://www.historylink.org/db_images/ACF190D.JPG

VS

http://topnews.in/light/files/Muhammad%20Ali.jpg

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just to be clear, I am not an Ali fan. There are fighters for whom I have a much greater affinity. Unfortunately, facts being what they are, Ali in his prime could probably have beaten many of them, both in and out of the ring. Heretical as it may sound, I'd pick Ali in his prime over Chuck Norris in his.

Daniel

Well, I have a lot of respect for Chuck Norris as a man. he has done a lot of good in the world with his kickstart programs, diverting at risk youth into martial arts training and helping them form self discipline and respect for themselves and others and helping them gain a work ethic and some good martial arts skills. I appreciate his courageous stand for Jesus Christ, it is good to see an Evangelical Christian who is also a celebrity who has not been tarnished by scandal. In a fight with Ali, Ali all the way in my opinion, but we will never know, while both were in their prime. Norris could defeat Ali quite easily now of course, as could a lot of old ladies, but that is of course the result of Parkinsons disease.
Chuck is a good man, and one of those fighters for whom I have a much greater affinity. My money would be on Ali, but I'd be rooting for Chuck.

Daniel

[celtic_crippler]

Chuck Norris was a ...5 time I believe... champion at the IKC's.

He's not just an "action star."

[Daniel Sullivan]

Absolutely. Which is why I refer to him as a fighter. His movie career was what he became famous for later on.

Daniel

[repz]

Chuck Norris also has a black belt in bjj under machado, so he, as well as Oyama, have the grappling game covered. I would tip my hat to them a bit.

[Xinglu]

Chuck Norris also has a black belt in bjj under machado, so he, as well as Oyama, have the grappling game covered. I would tip my hat to them a bit.

So I did some looking, every source I found indicates he has a brown belt under Machado family. While this is a huge accomplishment, it is most definitely not a BB.

[Xue Sheng]

:uhohh: Listen guys

You want to have a nice little thread about who would win Ali or Bruce that’s fine... But don’t be dissing Chuck… he won’t like it :anic:, experience and TV commercials tells me that just CAN’T be good :erg:

:D

[blindsage]

True. I mean how do you hit a guy in the chin, when it's all fist under that beard? And the force from just one of his kicks, even if it misses, would be so utterly destructive, and that's not even mentioning the EMP and the radiation fallout.

[repz]

So I did some looking, every source I found indicates he has a brown belt under Machado family. While this is a huge accomplishment, it is most definitely not a BB.

On renzos site he put a link to wikepedia where it lists chuck norris as a black belt http://www.renzogracie.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,75/func,view/catid,21/id,1158/
But its possible he can be brown,but hes been training in bjj before royce ever entered ufc. Only source i found was wikepidia pages, and outdated links that claim he was brown in years before 2007, so i dont know if hes still brown. A brown belt in bjj is still an accomplishments, theres mma fighters at brown belt winning titles, but thats if he earned his rank.

[Xinglu]

On renzos site he put a link to wikepedia where it lists chuck norris as a black belt http://www.renzogracie.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,75/func,view/catid,21/id,1158/
But its possible he can be brown,but hes been training in bjj before royce ever entered ufc. Only source i found was wikepidia pages, and outdated links that claim he was brown in years before 2007, so i dont know if hes still brown. A brown belt in bjj is still an accomplishments, theres mma fighters at brown belt winning titles, but thats if he earned his rank.

Oh, I'm not trying to take anything away from him at all. Brown belt is a huge accomplishment in BJJ. There are guys with no more than a blue belt in BJJ winning matches in MMA. Add to the fact that Norris is a monster in the stand up game (remember he beat Joe Lewis TWICE!), I think he would fair pretty well against Ali in a NHB fight, he might even beat him if he could get inside and take him to the ground.

My thoughts on Lee: I think that with out a doubt he would have embraced BJJ and if he was still alive today, it would be added to the JKD mix. I also think he would have trained some of the best MMA fighter to grace the octagon.

[Joab]

Oh, I'm not trying to take anything away from him at all. Brown belt is a huge accomplishment in BJJ. There are guys with no more than a blue belt in BJJ winning matches in MMA. Add to the fact that Norris is a monster in the stand up game (remember he beat Joe Lewis TWICE!), I think he would fair pretty well against Ali in a NHB fight, he might even beat him if he could get inside and take him to the ground.

Yeah, beating Joe Lewis twice is no mean feat. I really don't think Chuck would have a chance against Ali, Ali weighed a lot more, was a lot taller, and had great foot work. Professional karate fighters don't normally beat boxers in the ring, I think Ali would be good at defeating high kicks. I don't think Chuck was ever quick enough to defeat Ali IMHO.

My thoughts on Lee: I think that with out a doubt he would have embraced BJJ and if he was still alive today, it would be added to the JKD mix. I also think he would have trained some of the best MMA fighter to grace the octagon.

Well, we will never know. He really didn't seem to be interested in ground fighting at all, but its possible he would have studied BJJ. I don't think he was really into training fighters so much as making a lot of movies and making a lot of money. I think he would have made a lot of really outstanding martial arts movies and be extremely wealthy.

[repz]

Oh, I'm not trying to take anything away from him at all. Brown belt is a huge accomplishment in BJJ. There are guys with no more than a blue belt in BJJ winning matches in MMA. Add to the fact that Norris is a monster in the stand up game (remember he beat Joe Lewis TWICE!), I think he would fair pretty well against Ali in a NHB fight, he might even beat him if he could get inside and take him to the ground.

My thoughts on Lee: I think that with out a doubt he would have embraced BJJ and if he was still alive today, it would be added to the JKD mix. I also think he would have trained some of the best MMA fighter to grace the octagon.

Definetly, Dan Insanto, Lees right hand man and jkd head instructor (or whatever title he has) has a black belt in bjj (well, again, i didnt bother to verify, but its on machados bio and its listed 2 years ago). And Lee did train with Judo Gene Lebell, so he was feeling the ground game.