Sinking you Chi in WC? [Archive] - MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Yoshiyahu

02-06-2009, 02:52 PM

Here are some Theories from

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Yee_Jee_Kim_Yeung_Ma

Below are some phrases dealing with Chi in Dan Tien. What do you think about it...any comments? Real the bold words!

questions?

1.How do you fill the Dan Tien with Chi?

2.How do you control the Dan Tien?

3.How do you release Chi from the Dan Tien?

Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma
- Pull in the chest, push out the upper back, and bring in the tail bone.
- Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.
- Point the knees and toes inward.
- Form a pyramid with the center of gravity in the center.
- Fists are placed by the side of the ribs but not touching the body.
- Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist.
- Hold the head and neck straight and keep the spirit alert.
- Eyes are level, looking straight ahead, and watching all directions.
- The mind is free of distractions and the mood is bright.
- There is no fear when facing the opponent.
- Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma is the main stance.
- Develop a good foundation for advanced techniques.

Siu Lim Tau
- Siu Lim Tau comes first; Do not force progress in training.
- A weak body must start with strength improvement.
- Do not keep any bad habit.
- Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.
- To maintain good balance of strength, grip the ground with the toes.
- To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.
- Sink the elbow and drop the shoulders; Guarding the centerline to protect both flanks.
- There are one hundred and eight moves, all practical and real; Thousands of variations can be used, aiming for practical use and not beauty.
- Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.
- Taun Sau, Bong Sau, Fok Sau, Wu Sau, and Huen Sau; their wonder grows with practice.
- Each movement must be clear and crisp. Timing must be observed.
- Practice once a day, more will cause no harm.

Xue Sheng

02-06-2009, 03:21 PM

questions?

1.How do you fill the Dan Tien with Chi?

2.How do you control the Dan Tien?

3.How do you release Chi from the Dan Tien?

The Root of Chinese Qigong
(http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/qigong/the_root_of_chinese_qigong)
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon2.gifQigong Meditation- Small Circulation
(http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/internal/qigong_meditation_small_circulation)
Eight Simple Qigong Exercises for Health (http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/books/qigong/eight_simple_qigong)

Qigong (http://www.answers.com/topic/qigong)

Dantian (http://www.answers.com/topic/dantian)

JadecloudAlchemist

02-06-2009, 05:24 PM

Heres a question which dan tian are you talking about?

You got Lower,middle,upper.

Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

When the lower Dan tian(Qi hai CV6) is full then the Qi will go flow into the meridians and Extraordinary vessels thus giving strength.

Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien. Keep the mind at Dan tian to build up the Qi. Also by using the motion of the waist the Qi travels smoothly thru the arms and legs.

To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.
Same answer above. When the body moves correctly then Fa jin will manifest IMO.

Yoshiyahu

02-06-2009, 05:29 PM

Excellent response...I don't know how many WC guys would responed to this...it seems many WC people don't teach about the three dan tiens...Oh i was speaking of the lower Dan Tien...

Any who...I cant remember if it Xue Shen who studied a little WC or not...Did the WC sifu talk about the Dan Tien at all?

Heres a question which dan tian are you talking about?

You got Lower,middle,upper.

When the lower Dan tian(Qi hai CV6) is full then the Qi will go flow into the meridians and Extraordinary vessels thus giving strength.

Keep the mind at Dan tian to build up the Qi. Also by using the motion of the waist the Qi travels smoothly thru the arms and legs.

Same answer above. When the body moves correctly then Fa jin will manifest IMO.

Xue Sheng

02-06-2009, 05:42 PM

Any who...I cant remember if it Xue Shen who studied a little WC or not...Did the WC sifu talk about the Dan Tien at all?

Yes I did but I never got past Siu Lim Tau and I do not remember if he did or not

Yoshiyahu

02-06-2009, 05:45 PM

Did you learn the entire SLT?

What version was it Yip Man's?

Also do you still remember it?

Yes I did but I never got past Siu Lim Tau and I do not remember if he did or not

Xue Sheng

02-06-2009, 05:57 PM

Did you learn the entire SLT?

Yes

What version was it Yip Man's?

Yes, but to be more precise Ip Ching

Also do you still remember it?

No

mook jong man

02-06-2009, 07:56 PM

We were taught to try and relax every muscle in the body as we sink down into our stance .
We straighten the spine as though an imaginary string is pulling your head up .

When we feel that every muscle is suitably relaxed we then do what is called Tei Gong which is a slight internal contraction of the anal sphincter muscle. This is thought to lock the upper and lower half of the body together as one unit .

It also helps to concentrate the mind and cause the spine to be filled with the spirit of Nim Lik which can be sent to any limb to generate power with your techniques .

It is an internal energy , but Sigung Tsui doesn't call it Chi he calls it Nim Lik which roughly translates to thought force . Nim Lik is cultivated by practicing the Sil Lim Tau correctly by using the mind to drive out your techniques , not by using muscular force , any tension except for the internal contraction is a hinderance to the proper usage and cultivation of Nim Lik power .

skinters

02-08-2009, 08:26 AM

to me all this dan tian,chi etc is just another name for proper relaxation and body mechanics .

a good book worth reading is the inteligent warrior by steve jones,he talks a lot about the use of centre,and chi.

one of the things i picked up on is where to you keep the mind focus etc,some believe to keep the lower part of the abdomen just below the navel .this is fair enough and not a bad idea,but if you try to keep the mind inprisoned in the lower region of the abdomen,the idea of keeping it there will prevent the mind from operating anywhere else,and will result in the opposite to what is originaly intended.

when you put your mind and focus in a particular area say the arm the arm then becomes imprisoned and the rest of the body feels inconvenienced.the thing is to let the mind completly fill up the whole body,let it flow through your entire being.the localization of the mind on one particular area means it is frozen.

i could go on,but to me your body is one unit each part relying on the other to complete an action with good balance and form,martial art or otherwise.

JadecloudAlchemist

02-08-2009, 09:19 AM

to me all this dan tian,chi etc is just another name for proper relaxation and body mechanics . The lower Dan tien(Qi hai CV6) I personally can not find a Western medicine explanation for it.

However the Middle Dan tien(Jiu wei CV15) is considered to be the Solar Plexus area. The upper Dan tien is considered to be where the Pineal and Pituitary glands are located.

Qi is considered energy and depending on the type it is the Mitochondria and so on.

skinters

02-08-2009, 09:42 AM

The lower Dan tien(Qi hai CV6) I personally can not find a Western medicine explanation for it.

However the Middle Dan tien(Jiu wei CV15) is considered to be the Solar Plexus area. The upper Dan tien is considered to be where the Pineal and Pituitary glands are located.

Qi is considered energy and depending on the type it is the Mitochondria and so on.

sorry,you flogging a dead horse.

the fact you cannot find anything a western explanation for dan tien etc should tell you something,and if you read my post thats as far as my logic can take it.if your chinese etc and use that terminolgy as everyday,fare enough,but id much rather use western terms,such as focus, good body mechanics etc as just doing them is hard enough with out any other terms which with all respect completly go over my head.

after reading that i suspect you may feel slightly annoyed or maybe challenged in some way about what you obviously believe,but i hope you understand im not in anyway trying to start a discussion on what you beleive and what i do,as i have seen and been invloved in to many of those in forums like these,and is pointless.

ever heard of gordon ramsey?,i remeber he was teaching this guy how to cook,who had a few lessons.gordon said ok what do you know? the guy said oh i can chop veg Julienning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julienning), a technique of shredding vegetables or other food into long, thin strips.gordon swore at him called him a pompous so and so and told him to go wash some dishes .if you take that story and swap julienning with dan tein etc,you might get what i trying to say.

Xue Sheng

02-08-2009, 10:45 AM

sorry,you flogging a dead horse.

the fact you cannot find anything a western explanation for dan tien etc should tell you something,and if you read my post thats as far as my logic can take it.if your chinese etc and use that terminolgy as everyday,fare enough,but id much rather use western terms,such as focus, good body mechanics etc as just doing them is hard enough with out any other terms which with all respect completly go over my head.

after reading that i suspect you may feel slightly annoyed or maybe challenged in some way about what you obviously believe,but i hope you understand im not in anyway trying to start a discussion on what you beleive and what i do,as i have seen and been invloved in to many of those in forums like these,and is pointless.

ever heard of gordon ramsey?,i remeber he was teaching this guy how to cook,who had a few lessons.gordon said ok what do you know? the guy said oh i can chop veg Julienning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julienning), a technique of shredding vegetables or other food into long, thin strips.gordon swore at him called him a pompous so and so and told him to go wash some dishes .if you take that story and swap julienning with dan tein etc,you might get what i trying to say.

Just a note here

Wing Chun is a CMA meaning Chinese Martial Art

Dantien is used in Chinese Martial Arts, Chinese Culture and Chinese Medicine and the western view of things is not the be all end all of things. If you whish to discuss things like Qi using western thinking and exclude any discussion of the dantien then you are already way off base since there is no such thing as Qi in western thinking.

Just wanted to mention that.

JadecloudAlchemist

02-08-2009, 11:05 AM

What I mean is I can not find a Western location for the lower Dan tien as I find with the Middle Dan tien and Upper Dan tien. But if you want to get technical on the Lower Dan tien location Qi hai(Cv6) is not the real lower dan tien. The real lower Dan tien is located in Western terms the intestines. The Lower false Dan tien is located on the Conception vessel and the Real lower Dan tien is located "inner more" hence why I can not find a good Western equivalent. However it may be said that Qi hai (CV6) or false lower Dan tien western equivalent is the Adominal area in the actual location in the Acupunture text list is 1.5 inches below Umbilicus.

I have no desire to change your beliefs I only want to explain things better so others(maybe yourself) understand Qi and the topics around it. It's fine if you can only see or get to a certain point in your understanding of Qi.

As for your Ramsey analogy I am not sure if you alluding to me being Pompous or not?:idunno:

This is a piece from my blog it might help explain Ancient Chinese thought within Qi and its connection with modern science.

Demystifying Qi

There is alot of confusion of what Qi is and isn't.
Some say Qi is a mystical energy in Chinese.
I want to present my opinion on Qi.
Looking at the literal defination of the Hanzi for Qi we are presented with the characters Yun(steam) Mi(cooking rice) Chih(Pot) So the idea of the vapors coming from cooked rice.
When we look at Jing we see the same character Mi(uncooked rice) among the other characters. We can conclude that the refining or cooking does the release of Qi come into being.
The idea in our modern western translation is best as energy. Because the cooking generates the energy. Also if we look into other characters with the Qi such as Tian Qi (Heaven's Qi" we know that it is Heaven's energy. In modern times the best way to describe "Heaven's energy" is the Atmosphere. The many gases would best describe the Qi or energy of "Heaven" The same could be said of Di Qi (Earth's Qi) Which is Geothermal. When we speak of Qi in general we are mostly speaking of Ren Qi or human Qi.
Even then so is there many catagories of Qi within the human body.
Kong Qi is the air we breathe. This is known as Oxygen.
Yuan Qi is the orginal energy we are born with. Some may say this comes from Yuan Jing(orginal essence) which would apply are genetics and DNA.
Ying Qi is the Qi from the food we eat that is use to nourish the body. We can say it is the carbs,proteins,vitamins,minerals and so on use to nuture the body.
Wei Qi is the defensive Qi this is the immune system both inside with the white blood cells and the outer layer of skin use to protect the body.
The organs each have their own type of Qi.
The organs Qi is the balance of energy within the organ to perform its function correctly.
This means for example the Lungs ability to inhale Oxygen and exhale Carbon dioxide free from stagnation.
Qi is also related to the blood known as Xue.
It is the Mitochondria that is the prime source of Qi which releases into ATP. Similar to the Hanzi for Jing uncooked rice becoming the steam found in the character for Qi.

Those this is not a complete write up on Qi it is a small bridge of Qi and modern Western medicine.

skinters

02-08-2009, 11:13 AM

Just a note here

Wing Chun is a CMA meaning Chinese Martial Art

Dantien is used in Chinese Martial Arts, Chinese Culture and Chinese Medicine and the western view of things is not the be all end all of things. If you whish to discuss things like Qi using western thinking and exclude any discussion of the dantien then you are already way off base since there is no such thing as Qi in western thinking.

Just wanted to mention that.

quite the opposite in a way i only want to de mystify the original concept of chi dan tien etc, so it could maybe be more easy to digest,as far as i am aware dan tein, chi etc started as chinese mythical folklore.it is also founded in Chinese traditional religion,which any questioning of that can arouse deep feelings like all religion can.

you say there is no thing as qi in western thinking which is fair enough,but that is quite a broad generalization,in the way that more and more people are becoming more knowlegable of other cultures .

To be truly open-minded, one must be willing to step beyond the boundaries and limitations that have been inherited. To pursue the truth, you must be willing to consider the teachings that cultures have to offer, but you must also hold those teachings up to careful examination.

i think there can be a succesfull blending of both asian and western cultures and if the present is anything to go by there is no reason that the future cannot continue to de mystify both ways of thinking and take it to another level.

skinters

02-08-2009, 11:32 AM

Eru Ilúvatar

02-08-2009, 11:37 AM

Thanks for that great post Jadecloud!

JadecloudAlchemist

02-08-2009, 11:57 AM

quite the opposite in a way i only want to de mystify the original concept of chi dan tien etc, so it could maybe be more easy to digest,as far as i am aware dan tein, chi etc started as chinese mythical folklore.it is also founded in Chinese traditional religion,which any questioning of that can arouse deep feelings like all religion can. I Think my post and the piece from my blog help demystify Qi and Tan tien. I don't think anyone as of yet can pin point the idea of when and where the Dan tien's come from. It may have started or transformed from the Shangqing sect which specialized in internal visions of "monsters" and protective deities. From there it may have resided into the 3 Dan tiens this is in Chin dynasty 265-420 C.E.. Also in each of the 3 Dan tiens there lived Monsters known as 3 worms. If we look at the location Intestines,Brains we may understand how the early Taoist came into that idea.
I don't think we see the Dan tien's before the Chin Dynasty when there was a heavy influence of Shamanism and magic and external alchemy being used. We can see clearly the evolution of Deity with the internal Dan tien with the Shangqing sect.

i think there can be a succesfull blending of both asian and western cultures and if the present is anything to go by there is no reason that the future cannot continue to de mystify both ways of thinking and take it to another level. Working on it. :wavey: Though I do not talk much about the religious,magic usuage of Qi such as Talisman and so on because I can not find a western science rationalization for it so I simply leave that as religious.

JadecloudAlchemist

02-08-2009, 12:01 PM

well like i said to me the presumed dan tien etc ,is just good focus being able to find good balance through centering . i was more interested in the way focus is attached more in that area excluding the body as a whole,more than where ever it exists or not.

as far as i can see you have a very good understanding of its concepts .
and no i was not alluding to you being pompous.

I think we can all agree with that.

Thank you in no way is it my intent to be pompous. Actually I should be thanking you because some of these topics I really have to think about and research to make sure I have the right understanding of what I am talking about sometimes I am wrong about things!!

Xue Sheng

02-08-2009, 12:10 PM

quite the opposite in a way i only want to de mystify the original concept of chi dan tien etc, so it could maybe be more easy to digest,as far as i am aware dan tein, chi etc started as chinese mythical folklore.it is also founded in Chinese traditional religion,which any questioning of that can arouse deep feelings like all religion can.

you say there is no thing as qi in western thinking which is fair enough,but that is quite a broad generalization,in the way that more and more people are becoming more knowlegable of other cultures .

To be truly open-minded, one must be willing to step beyond the boundaries and limitations that have been inherited. To pursue the truth, you must be willing to consider the teachings that cultures have to offer, but you must also hold those teachings up to careful examination.

i think there can be a succesfull blending of both asian and western cultures and if the present is anything to go by there is no reason that the future cannot continue to de mystify both ways of thinking and take it to another level.

To be truly open minded you need to also understand Chinese culture and not force western thought on it. If you understand Chinese culture dantien and qi are not religious at all. Taking this to religion is a western misunderstanding of things Chinese much the same way many westerners take Shen which translates as spirit to be religious when in fact it is just talking about the mind from a Chinese POV. And if you talk to many Chinese there is nothing mystical about any of it, again this is a lack of understanding form a western POV.

To a TCM Doc it is not religious at all actually. It is no more religious than Anatomy and Physiology are to a western MD. To a CMA person it is just part of the training and again no more religious than pushups are to a western boxer.

You will find dantien and qi in eastern religions and philosophy but you will also find chairs and pillows there as well and they are not religious either just something that the religion uses.

JadecloudAlchemist

02-08-2009, 12:47 PM

To be truly open minded you need to also understand Chinese culture and not force western thought on it. If you understand Chinese culture dantien and qi are not religious at all. Taking this to religion is a western misunderstanding of things Chinese much the same way many westerners take Shen which translates as spirit to be religious when in fact it is just talking about the mind from a Chinese POV. And if you talk to many Chinese there is nothing mystical about any of it, again this is a lack of understanding form a western POV.

To a TCM Doc it is not religious at all actually. It is no more religious than Anatomy and Physiology are to a western MD. To a CMA person it is just part of the training and again no more religious than pushups are to a western boxer.

You will find dantien and qi in eastern religions and philosophy but you will also find chairs and pillows there as well and they are not religious either just something that the religion uses. I think that is the main problem is the classification. Holmes Welch in his 1957 work Taoism:Parting of the way spoke about Taoism and medicine and the close realtionship that existed which of couse many scholars in the West IMO easily can get the two mixed up. I am going to talk about a Japanese word for a second because me and my wife and the Electroic Kanji translator dictonary were discussing. The Kanji:Shu 修. I read it more as asceticism she reads it more as special training(she does not know the word ascetic) the Dictionary reads it more as training(but what type?)

So the idea of going from one cultures defination into another and then by actual writing of the word and a dictionary can lead to all sorts of confusion. On top of that the whole structure of ancient writing with its cryptical mess who knows what the real message is.

I think as you say Xue Shen just means spirit as well. In Japanese it is Shin(interesting note that Ki=Qi but Chi=Blood in Japanese)IMO I think depending on who you are talking to the concept changes. Example of my Shu 修 I think if I spoke with a monk about it he would think oh ya asceticism but average person would think the training like a sushi chef goes thru(special training ala asceticism) Anyway I am sure we are way off topic.

skinters

02-08-2009, 01:17 PM

To be truly open minded you need to also understand Chinese culture and not force western thought on it. If you understand Chinese culture dantien and qi are not religious at all. Taking this to religion is a western misunderstanding of things Chinese much the same way many westerners take Shen which translates as spirit to be religious when in fact it is just talking about the mind from a Chinese POV. And if you talk to many Chinese there is nothing mystical about any of it, again this is a lack of understanding form a western POV.

To a TCM Doc it is not religious at all actually. It is no more religious than Anatomy and Physiology are to a western MD. To a CMA person it is just part of the training and again no more religious than pushups are to a western boxer.

You will find dantien and qi in eastern religions and philosophy but you will also find chairs and pillows there as well and they are not religious either just something that the religion uses.

ok not a religion in the true sense of the word.

The earliest texts that speak of chi give some indications of how the concept developed. The philosopher modi (also known as Mo Zi or "Master Mo") used the word chi to refer to noxious vapors that would in due time arise from a corpse were it not buried at a sufficient depth.its strange how interpretations can and did in those times like a lot of things change from person to person and time to time,even Confucius spoke of chi and it can be combined with the Chinese word for blood (xue-qi, blood and breath) and that concept can be used to account for motivational characteristics. ie open to interpretation.

when you study the historical record, its interesting to see that there was indeed no universal explanation for chi,amongst the chinese,(again im only refering to the historical record not my interpretation) and word chi was even used to describe steam rising off boiled rise.it can also be assumed that there are many chinese who question others interpretations or exsistance of what chi is,much like some westerners might do.

JadecloudAlchemist

02-08-2009, 02:09 PM

There are diffent types of Qi. So the Qi Mo tzu spoke about coming from the dead may be different from the Qi used in another wording. You wrote noxious gas and I am sure the ideogram Qi may be there. But if there is another ideogram before it or after it that could change the meaning of the word. I have seen the word Qi translated as Vapor but IMO because of the many different types of Qi I don't think it justify the meaning as energy does. The orginal Hanzi does have the vapors coming off cooked rice but IMO it is not so much the product ending with vapor but the actual action(energy) needed to produce the vapor that is Qi. So it is the actual cooking IMO that makes the Hanzi for Qi because IMO Qi=energy.

It is also My opinion that the majorityof Qi inside the body is mitrochondria. The ideogram for breath is a different Qi then this one 氣 (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%B0%A3)

The earliest way of writing qi consisted of three wavy lines, used to represent one's breath seen on a cold day-Wiki Yes we can see this in 气 (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%B0%94) Steam(Yun) But I don't know what reference this Ideogram was used in and what ancient books if any.

profesormental

02-08-2009, 07:13 PM

Greetings.

The problem is the models of the world used.

Accupunture, Qi and Daoist phisiology and anatomy work on different assumptions and rules than Medical Sciences.

Interestingly enough, they both have great success and results. Yet the basic assumptions are not very compatible, and they need not be, since they work on different aspects of the Human Being.

One mainly biochemical, and the other in more subtle, neurostimulant, "energetic" way.

"Sinking Qi" might mean a lot of things, like focus of intent, which has definite and significant effect on physical execution;

lowering of the stance as to increase alignment of forces and friction as to tranfer more mechanical kinetic energy into the target of a strike;

increase in structure and stability as to generate more power; etc.

There are definite methods to increase each, yet calling it Sinking Qi is ambigous way to describe what, and doesn't really describe how.

Hope that helps.

Juan M. Mercado

Yoshiyahu

02-08-2009, 08:12 PM

Actually if you focus on dan tien you feel and notice results. Including more energy. Tingling sensation going through your body. Hands tingling an after awhile it will feel like a wave or analog wave pulsationg through your hands and feet. The use of Dan Tians have different purposes...the lower dan tian in my opinion is where you distribute the power.

As for western thought lets make it simple.

Can you explain what air is? what does it look or taste like. Surely you can feel the air...But is it really there. I mean you can see it. You may see dirt or dust particles carried in the air but you can not see actual air. You may say water vapor being carried by the air. But you never see the air. So one can say the air can be felt but not seen. So the Chi can be felt but not see.

According to KJV Bible the Spirit is the wind air and breath. With out the spirit you dont have life. Also you can not see the spirit. No one has ever seen the spirit in all of history. But the average Westerner still believes they have a spirit. The spirit is Methaphyiscal not western science. Wester Science can not tell you what the spirit feels like,what color it is,what it looks like. Does the spirit have a taste. What about the soul can you tell me what the soul is? what about emotions what do they look like? What color are the emotions? Do they have a form or taste. What about your thoughts. Were do they come from? How is it possible for the human body to think talk and move?

Can science prove these things...no they have theories for the soul,spirit,thoughts,energy.

The Chi is consider energy. With out energy we do not have life. How do your cells get energy. From the air and sunlight we get energy. Thats why some Tai Chi people always say to do forms in a park with lots of trees to take in all that oxygen and chi. Also we get energy from certain foods. So in eating you also obtain energy. Certain movements also help cultivate chi as well..

When you do push ups you cultivate chi. When you meditate and breath your cultivating chi. When you run an breath you are cultivating chi.

As for the heaven gate or Third Dan Tien. We know in the west that the peniel or optic nerve is attributed to many things that have been unexplained. In many Western Cultures they speak of Pitutary Gland behind the skull. Its known as the Third Eye.

If you doubt the lower Dan Tien it doesn't mean it doesnt exist. Like many people deny the existence of Yahweh but he still exist. Our western view of the soul and spirit comes from a eastern religion of the hebrews. The hebrew word for Soul is Nefesh and the Hebrew word for spirit is Ruach.

TheActually proper english translation for nefesh is Seat of emotions,loins,thoughts etc.

The Actual proper english translation for Ruach is Wind, Breath or Air!

So in the west we translates words an loose the actual meaning of them. We need to keep the original meaning an stop trying to hellenize everything or make it into western ideology. Westerns have alot to learn from less develop societies. This whole Superior Western view is wrong. In fact Science doesnt have all the answers. If it did there would be an answer to what the Spirit is!

So if there is no such thing as Chi because science can not explain it then that must mean you do not have Ruach and Nefesh?

Do you agree skinters?

to me all this dan tian,chi etc is just another name for proper relaxation and body mechanics .

a good book worth reading is the inteligent warrior by steve jones,he talks a lot about the use of centre,and chi.

one of the things i picked up on is where to you keep the mind focus etc,some believe to keep the lower part of the abdomen just below the navel .this is fair enough and not a bad idea,but if you try to keep the mind inprisoned in the lower region of the abdomen,the idea of keeping it there will prevent the mind from operating anywhere else,and will result in the opposite to what is originaly intended.

when you put your mind and focus in a particular area say the arm the arm then becomes imprisoned and the rest of the body feels inconvenienced.the thing is to let the mind completly fill up the whole body,let it flow through your entire being.the localization of the mind on one particular area means it is frozen.

i could go on,but to me your body is one unit each part relying on the other to complete an action with good balance and form,martial art or otherwise.

skinters

02-08-2009, 08:44 PM

Can you explain what air is? what does it look or taste like. Surely you can feel the air...But is it really there. I mean you can see it. You may see dirt or dust particles carried in the air but you can not see actual air. You may say water vapor being carried by the air. But you never see the air. So one can say the air can be felt but not seen. So the Chi can be felt but not see.

can i explain what air is ? ill give it a shot we cant see air partly because it is a gas, clean air reflects so little light that it seems transparent over short distances such as a mile or two. Even relatively clean, thin air like that in the high mountains will look hazy at distances of 20 miles or more.
The molecules that make up air (nitrogen, oxygen, water vapor, carbondioxide, argon) just don't happen to absorb light in the wavelengths our eyes can see. Infrared light is absorbed quite well by water vapor, and most of the gases in air strongly absorb short-wave ultraviolet.

as for the rest you use a lot of religious overtones,and feel your touching on quite a touchy subject.you make a connection with chi etc and religion,and just further raises my scepticism.

do i agree? not really the point,im not trying to debunk what your saying either way just responding .

Xue Sheng

02-09-2009, 11:47 AM

ok not a religion in the true sense of the word.

The earliest texts that speak of chi give some indications of how the concept developed. The philosopher modi (also known as Mo Zi or "Master Mo") used the word chi to refer to noxious vapors that would in due time arise from a corpse were it not buried at a sufficient depth.its strange how interpretations can and did in those times like a lot of things change from person to person and time to time,even Confucius spoke of chi and it can be combined with the Chinese word for blood (xue-qi, blood and breath) and that concept can be used to account for motivational characteristics. ie open to interpretation.

when you study the historical record, its interesting to see that there was indeed no universal explanation for chi,amongst the chinese,(again im only refering to the historical record not my interpretation) and word chi was even used to describe steam rising off boiled rise.it can also be assumed that there are many chinese who question others interpretations or exsistance of what chi is,much like some westerners might do.

Qi and dantien are not a religion period. Actually to Chinese Culture and the Chinese of the 21st century is about as religious as the kidney and although most priest and parishioners do have kidneys it does not make the kidney religious.

However it is interesting that you picked Mo Zi and Kong Fuzi (Confucius) since Mo Zi argued against Confucianism pretty strongly. But then there are multiple Historical Chinese texts that deal with Qi take a look at the Dragon Tiger classic sometime.

A rather good book on the topic (to bring it close to the 21st century) that is approaching it from the view of Western science since Dr Yang is an Engineer as well as looking at it from the view of Chinese culture since Dr yang is in fact Chinese. Not necessarily the be all end all of things Qi but a good book to read.

The Root of Chinese Qigong
By Yang Jwing Ming

And if you want a much more universal explanation for qi amongst the Chinese you need to come forward a bit in History (about 1000 years or so) and look to Traditional Chinese Medicine for definitions of qi and the dantien, and possibly, since we are looking at this from a Martial arts perspective you might want to look at it from a CMA perspective and not historical based on Mo Zi and Confucius. You can learn a lot form them but I would not use that in a discussion about Qi as proof or disproof. But you were also taking issue with the use of Dantien and you may also want to look to Traditional Chinese Medicine for that as well.

And you may assume that there are many Chinese question others interpretations or existence of what qi based on Mo Zi and Kong Fuzi but then you are assuming that there has been absolutely no study, thought or change in the last 2000 years in China and that would be a very bad and false assumption. Look to more modern sources and look more into the topic and don’t get partial or old explanations and run with them.

You see I come across this all the time and many years ago I was guilty of it myself but we (westerners) tend to feel that we know it all and we tend to get partial or old definitions, views or thoughts on things Chinese and run with them (my previous example of Shen for instance) and we do not look deeper. Or worse yet we don’t understand it so we try and change it to something we understand and we miss the target completely on both counts. Another example would be the vast number of Chinese metaphors that are used in definitions are enough to throw one off the trail but you need to look to the meaning behind them to get to what the heck they are talking about. But if you stop at the metaphor you might thing you have it but you likely don’t

But this is going waaaaaaay off topic so I will stop here

JadecloudAlchemist

02-09-2009, 12:23 PM

Qi and dantien are not a religion period.

That is something I have been trying to do is show the difference between th religious use of Qi and Dan tien and the more modern TCM science use of it.

I think Dr. Yang was one of the first to present Qigong in a more western science meaning. It greatly influenced my views of Qigong.

IMO the term of Qi has evolved same as the practice of Qigong. We can see how it evolved from the shamans to the fang shih who mixed docturine to the external alchemy schools to the internal schools all in the mean time merging with medical,martial,scholary,and religious usuage of Qi.
I think a problem also is we have the older definations that are written into English and writers keep using the reference. Example is James Ware translates Hsien or Xian as Fairy or God when a more modern approach is immortal. But anyway back on topic..

Sinking Qi. I posted an explaination of it based on my understanding at this time(which is limited I think) Yoshiyahu care to explain it now to get the thread back on track?

Later I will share more of what my Sifu teaches about Sinking the Chi.

Yoshiyahu

02-09-2009, 01:15 PM

Okay I have to asked again what is Air? you gave me a bunch scientific jargon I do not understand. Can you explain what air is in layman terms. I am not a scientist...so please explain it to me simple or with Chinese terms or with hebrew terms. These are the only ways I will be able to grasp what you mean. I do not understand the Scientific talk about argon wavelengths infrared light all this molecular stuff means nothing to me...

What is Air. How was it created? What is its purpose?
What does Air smell like? Can you really see air or is just dust and dirt particles you see? What is a gas? What does gas look like? What is a Molecule...what does it look like? how do molecules feel, smell and taste?

What is infrared? what is wavelength?

lol...

can i explain what air is ? ill give it a shot we cant see air partly because it is a gas, clean air reflects so little light that it seems transparent over short distances such as a mile or two. Even relatively clean, thin air like that in the high mountains will look hazy at distances of 20 miles or more.

The molecules that make up air (nitrogen, oxygen, water vapor, carbondioxide, argon) just don't happen to absorb light in the wavelengths our eyes can see. Infrared light is absorbed quite well by water vapor, and most of the gases in air strongly absorb short-wave ultraviolet.

as for the rest you use a lot of religious overtones,and feel your touching on quite a touchy subject.you make a connection with chi etc and religion,and just further raises my scepticism.

do i agree? not really the point,im not trying to debunk what your saying either way just responding .

Yoshiyahu

02-09-2009, 01:23 PM

i THINK THE PROBLEM IS some people have no idea what the Dan Tien or Chi is...So the idea of sinking the chi is alien to them,Therefore the post criticism instead of sharing their personal knowledge or sharing they have no idea what sinking the chi is. I enjoyed your post along with Xue and Mook Jong.

You guys are all on point.

I am also looking forward to any more WC guys sharing there thoughts of Sinking the Chi...

Does your Sifu teach it...is it apart of curriculm? Does you Sifu say Sinking the Chi is useless?

Please share more about your WC background and sinking the Chi.

That is something I have been trying to do is show the difference between th religious use of Qi and Dan tien and the more modern TCM science use of it.

I think Dr. Yang was one of the first to present Qigong in a more western science meaning. It greatly influenced my views of Qigong.

IMO the term of Qi has evolved same as the practice of Qigong. We can see how it evolved from the shamans to the fang shih who mixed docturine to the external alchemy schools to the internal schools all in the mean time merging with medical,martial,scholary,and religious usuage of Qi.
I think a problem also is we have the older definations that are written into English and writers keep using the reference. Example is James Ware translates Hsien or Xian as Fairy or God when a more modern approach is immortal. But anyway back on topic..

Sinking Qi. I posted an explaination of it based on my understanding at this time(which is limited I think) Yoshiyahu care to explain it now to get the thread back on track?

Eru Ilúvatar

02-09-2009, 01:33 PM

Sinking Qi. I posted an explaination of it based on my understanding at this time(which is limited I think) Yoshiyahu care to explain it now to get the thread back on track?

I too would love to hear what you know on the subject. I get the feeling that you know more about alot of stuff than you lead to believe. I also think that you ask alot of questiones you allready know the answers to. Please share too.

Yoshiyahu

02-09-2009, 03:15 PM

Well mostly what Jade and Xue have mention before on the forums concerning sinking the Chi. But as for my belief. I was fortunate to have a WC sifu who is very indepth in the internal arts. He practices has internal arts such as Baguazhang and Yang Tai Chi. So I was woundering if other Sifu's of Wing Chun teach about the Dan Tien,Chi, and sinking the chi?

I wanted to know the differences. If there any. Many People with Internal Backgrounds incorporate parts from other arts into WC. But in my research over the years I have found other Wing Chun lineages speak of Chi and Chi Gung and the Dan Tien. So I was curious to how things are all around.

I have no view point that is different really. I agree with the Three Dan Tiens. I think the heaven or third Dan Tien is attributed to many historical teachings of piturary gland or third eye. I believe its really simple really. The Kidneys and Heart play a big part in Chi distribution through the blood. I don't think the Chi is the blood. But I believe in my opinion Chi is carried through the blood. I believe the heart has alot to do with this. An Chi is stored in various parts of the body. The Chi is ciruclated through out the body.

My belief is through Exercise and Meditation one can use their thoughts to control the movements of the Chi. What I mean by Exercise is Nei Gong and Wai Gong. But this is my opinion in short.

As for sinking the Chi i believe its a combination of stance work and visualization. I believe that one should seek to root themselves into the floor/ground as to be unmovable and envision the Chi Cycling in the Dan Tien. Practice focusing on the Chi in the Dan Tien while holding Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma for thirty minutes are more. An later you begin to mentally send the Chi to different parts of your body like the hands,arms,wrist,legs, and feet.

But this is a brief summary of some of things I have been taught and studied concerning Chi and Sinking. There is much more but I have to refer to my notes. Anyway feel free to chime in anytime?

I too would love to hear what you know on the subject. I get the feeling that you know more about alot of stuff than you lead to believe. I also think that you ask alot of questiones you allready know the answers to. Please share too.

Eru Ilúvatar

02-09-2009, 03:37 PM

I think I said pretty much everything I know on the subject on the "Internal thread". About the sinking of Chi; I allwas got the impression that ment lowering your breathing(I hope you know what I mean becouse otherwise it would be realy hard to explain for me). Besides that I know little on the subject of Chi. As I mentioned I was never realy that into it at the time and I "filtered" most which was not purely martial. But my instructor(who had some knowledge in the area) used to say that WC forms do a pretty good job at QI gung and qi circulation...

Yoshiyahu

02-09-2009, 10:31 PM

Thank you for your honesty and also opinion...thats what it is about sharing opinions...I am glad you had some exposure great. Any way I am still learning my self. still growing I have a long way to go.

Okay very interesting I am curious to verbiage of other WC guys since terms and wording always seem to change depending on lineage...very interesting..

I think I said pretty much everything I know on the subject on the "Internal thread". About the sinking of Chi; I allwas got the impression that ment lowering your breathing(I hope you know what I mean becouse otherwise it would be realy hard to explain for me). Besides that I know little on the subject of Chi. As I mentioned I was never realy that into it at the time and I "filtered" most which was not purely martial. But my instructor(who had some knowledge in the area) used to say that WC forms do a pretty good job at QI gung and qi circulation...