BJJ vs Wing Chun (joke joke!)

[KamonGuy2]

Just wanted to say thankyou to Bob ubbard for shutting the BJJ wing chun thread

I hope no-one was offended by anything that was posted within that thread. It was all done in humour and I am sure I speak for everyone when we say that we are all brotehrs and sisters of the martial arts world

Ultimately there will be many posts on related subjects (wing chun and Muay Thai, wing chun and karate etc)

It is really down to the individual and their character as to whether they cross train or not

My only (and last) bit of advice on the subject is get out there and have a look for yourselves. I was a die hard wing chun purist for a long time, until I went to a wrestling gym and was thrown on my butt

It is essential for any martial rtist not to get too bogged down in one martial art. I love wing chun and believe that out of all the martial arts out there, it offers the most to an enthusiastic practitioner

But it is like when you eat food. If you stick to just the one dish that you like, you might never know other delicious flavours

[seasoned]

Just wanted to say thankyou to Bob ubbard for shutting the BJJ wing chun thread

I hope no-one was offended by anything that was posted within that thread. It was all done in humour and I am sure I speak for everyone when we say that we are all brotehrs and sisters of the martial arts world

Ultimately there will be many posts on related subjects (wing chun and Muay Thai, wing chun and karate etc)

It is really down to the individual and their character as to whether they cross train or not

My only (and last) bit of advice on the subject is get out there and have a look for yourselves. I was a die hard wing chun purist for a long time, until I went to a wrestling gym and was thrown on my butt

It is essential for any martial rtist not to get too bogged down in one martial art. I love wing chun and believe that out of all the martial arts out there, it offers the most to an enthusiastic practitioner

But it is like when you eat food. If you stick to just the one dish that you like, you might never know other delicious flavours
Just as a side note, then I will rest. I study and teach GoJu, and have for many years. If I was to cross train, say in boxing, or any other MA, I would expect to take some lumps. The same holds true within my own dojo. I would expect to get hit or taken down, it’s what happens after that, that counts. Case closed.

[Steve]

The original intent of the thread was interesting to me. The idea of identifying those areas where seemingly very different styles actually overlap, like on a venn diagram.

For my part, I apologize for losing my temper. If anyone ever wants to spar with a mediocre jiu-jitiero who has no stand up game at all, I'd love to goof around, and maybe have a beer or two after. :)

[JadecloudAlchemist]

That thread was a train wreck 30 pages pileup.

There was some good discussion from both sides but some of the ugliest comments were on that thread.

I am glad Bob closed the thread it was just becoming a mud slinging mess.

Thanks Bob for restoring order.

[Seeker]

Thanks Kamon,

That thread was a train wreck and an eye-opener as well.

We have those that praise WC unrealistically as the ultimate and then we have those who debase the art and cast it aside as junk. It's rare to find the middle ground on any MA forum where people are being pragmatic about the art... until now, and thanks to guys like you and many others who offer sound advice and a realistic view of what WC is and is not.

Thank you all who keep things real and rooted in reality.

[profesormental]

Greetings.

I still think it is important to note the overlaps in principles and concepts, as well as in training methods and execution of martial skills.

This last week, in memory of Gran Maestre Helio Gracie, all we trained was Gracie Jiu jitsu, and at the end of every class, we did not time limit bouts where the objective was to get to the mount or back and finish with strikes (low contact... but if the guy was controlled and pinned and just ate strikes, he lost) or with submission, prefferably a choke.

We train San Da here also, so we fought, took it to the gound as we normally do, controlled the action and hada lot of fun, with people puking from 7 to 10 minute fights, beautiful takedowns, controlled contact and artful escapes that ended up in rear naked chokes that had me scrceaming as if watching MMA fights on TV.

Everyone had fun and learned a lot.

So in the end, what matters is the instructors and training partners that you have. So that you learn a lot and have lots of fun.

I've trained great Wing Chun, and trained Wing Chun with people that I learned not much from. Same with Kenpo, BJJ and MMA.

The idea of Continuing Education in our Area of Study (Physical Education of Martial Arts, Sciences and Sports) should include exposition to different methods of training, so that we can learn to better ourselves faster and more efficiently.

In my case, Wing Chun train me in HOW to do movements and timing for Destructive Sequences,

American Kenpo trains me in Practice Combat Scenarios for Self Defense and Destructive Sequences (the WHAT),

Sl-4 Kenpo gives me the WHY and HOW for Self Defense and Martial Application of Movement in general,

San Da and Jiu Jitsu give me a rule structure to train sports and at higher levels, self defense in a high intensity, yet safe way.

So I guess I'm kind of a Martial Mutt. Which can be seen as a good thing by some, or a bad thing by others. It has worked out beautifully form me and me and my students get what they want from the training.

What more do I need or should strive for?

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

[geezer]

So I guess I'm kind of a Martial Mutt. Which can be seen as a good thing by some, or a bad thing by others. It has worked out beautifully for me, and me and my students get what they want from the training.

What more do I need or should strive for?

Sincerely,
Juan M. Mercado

What more? Nothing. I'd say you've found what we are all looking for... a balance that suits our needs!

[profesormental]

Thanks!

Actually, I'm striving for Optimization of Movement for Martial Applications... yet in the training methods department, I think I got it covered! :)

Interestingly enough, I'm really into going to as many seminars as possible, and get a taste for what is out there. Continuing Education, baby!!

[Yoshiyahu]

So what are some good Striking techniques that work well against the BJJ Artist?



Thanks!

Actually, I'm striving for Optimization of Movement for Martial Applications... yet in the training methods department, I think I got it covered! :)

Interestingly enough, I'm really into going to as many seminars as possible, and get a taste for what is out there. Continuing Education, baby!!

[skinters]

lock down alert lol

[Mystic Wolf]

:-popcorn:

[Steve]

:bazook::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[jarrod]

RARARARARAR bjj RARARARARARARAR wing chun RARARARARARARARARA between their legs RARARARARA chi balls.

please copy & paste the above over the next 30 pages, thank you.

jf

[MJS]

I said it before, and I'll say it again. If you want to cross train, fine, do it. If you don't, fine, then don't do it. IMO, we can learn something from every art, and no, you're not tainting yourself, you're improving your skills. I find it interesting how one of my posts in that locked thread went unanswered. It was the one about doctors, teachers, etc. Is a doctor bad if he goes on to specialize in something? What about a teacher? You have various teachers for each subject. What about a chef?

My point....those are people who specialize in something. Nothing wrong with that.

Whats really sad, is how people can run around, so blind to what else is on the table. To each their own I guess.

[skinters]

i wonder who it was that said style seperates us ? personaly i have got better things to do than protect my style like a crazy religion.

lock this thread before it creates more bad blood with children who cant control themselves.

[KamonGuy2]

Exactly. It's funny how you don't see other arts moaning about cross training. Indeed my karate instructor is very positive about it, (although most don't bother).

At the end of the day, a good chef will try every cuisine and understand different recipes and types of food. He will not make one dish that he thinks is perfect and stay with that

Expand, look around, get out there. Probe. Make sure your martial art is good - whatever style you do

Faith alone is nonsense. My best friend trained 5 years in an art (not going to mention which) and when he asked to spar with me, I tied him up, trapped him, took away his feet and sat on him. That was after two years in wing chun. He promptly realised that his teacher was full of cr*p and that because the teacher had forbidden him to visit other schools, he had never been able to judge his art or learn different ways of doing things

Let's not argue the same arguments. I would hope that people do enjoy and love wing chun, but also have a hunger to look at things 'outside the box'

We have many extremely talented martial artists on here, as well as those guys/gals who have just started but who have an excellent attitude towards training

Let's debate together using this wonderful resource and share the vast wealth of knowledge that it provides. Peace out

[skinters]

Exactly. It's funny how you don't see other arts moaning about cross training. Indeed my karate instructor is very positive about it, (although most don't bother).

At the end of the day, a good chef will try every cuisine and understand different recipes and types of food. He will not make one dish that he thinks is perfect and stay with that

Expand, look around, get out there. Probe. Make sure your martial art is good - whatever style you do

Faith alone is nonsense. My best friend trained 5 years in an art (not going to mention which) and when he asked to spar with me, I tied him up, trapped him, took away his feet and sat on him. That was after two years in wing chun. He promptly realised that his teacher was full of cr*p and that because the teacher had forbidden him to visit other schools, he had never been able to judge his art or learn different ways of doing things

Let's not argue the same arguments. I would hope that people do enjoy and love wing chun, but also have a hunger to look at things 'outside the box'

We have many extremely talented martial artists on here, as well as those guys/gals who have just started but who have an excellent attitude towards training

Let's debate together using this wonderful resource and share the vast wealth of knowledge that it provides. Peace out

what is it that brings the worse out of people when the my style against your style question comes up ?some can talk about the differences and similarities without reaching for the throat,and to some they style is like a religion.to be honest i think we all been there,where something is said about the thing you love and do and all hell breaks lose.

i think only when you address WHY things get heated when the style v style question comes up,can most people go past 2 minutes before throthing at the mouth.

kamon,lets all be brothers sounds great, people will argue the same arguments,and for years decades to come .

you have to realise,and please dont take this as being patronising,that people just wont accept other ways of doing things,not just in martial art.i think bjj is great and can be incorperated in to a wide range of styles.

people get angry when they cannot reply to a post where their style or technique is questioned,its a shock to the system to some to realise all you cherish and love maybe be wrong, and there is indeed a better way of doing something.

people defend they style like a religion,and we all know what the various religions think of each other,some can tolerate,others wont move an inch.

start a thread that states i hearby declare i will participate in this style v style thread,and talk about the similarites and differences with an open mind,and will at no time throw my toys out my pram.

[jarrod]

what is it that brings the worse out of people when the my style against your style question comes up ?some can talk about the differences and similarities without reaching for the throat,and to some they style is like a religion.to be honest i think we all been there,where something is said about the thing you love and do and all hell breaks lose.

i think only when you address WHY things get heated when the style v style question comes up,can most people go past 2 minutes before throthing at the mouth.

kamon,lets all be brothers sounds great, people will argue the same arguments,and for years decades to come .

you have to realise,and please dont take this as being patronising,that people just wont accept other ways of doing things,not just in martial art.i think bjj is great and can be incorperated in to a wide range of styles.

people get angry when they cannot reply to a post where their style or technique is questioned,its a shock to the system to some to realise all you cherish and love maybe be wrong, and there is indeed a better way of doing something.

people defend they style like a religion,and we all know what the various religions think of each other,some can tolerate,others wont move an inch.

start a thread that states i hearby declare i will participate in this style v style thread,and talk about the similarites and differences with an open mind,and will at no time throw my toys out my pram.

YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T UNDERSTAND JUJITSU & MY SENSEI CAN KICK YOUR SIFU'S...oh, wait, sorry i don't know what happend there. please forgive me.

i have no problem objectively comparing & contrasting styles. in fact there is something in almost every style of MA that appeals to me. i wish i could learn them all, or at least survey each for a couple months. this is probably because i tend to look for the similarities between styles rather than the differences. it is sad that it's so difficult to share knowledge without feathers getting ruffled.

the fact is, with the proper understanding of universal martial principles, you can acheive what you desire with most any style. fighting is fighting, the externals of technique just reflect the varieties of tactics. all MA that i'm familiar with support making your opponent's weakness your strength, using energy/angles/momentum to over come a larger opponent, ending conflict as soon as possible, & so on. how someone prefers to accomplish those things is really nothing more than a matter of taste. grappling feels natural to me so i do it. i have strong legs & i'm flexible so i like kicking. other ranges seem awkward to me no matter how much i train them, so i know where my weaknesses lie. it's all good, everyone's different.

jf

[MJS]

what is it that brings the worse out of people when the my style against your style question comes up ?some can talk about the differences and similarities without reaching for the throat,and to some they style is like a religion.to be honest i think we all been there,where something is said about the thing you love and do and all hell breaks lose.

i think only when you address WHY things get heated when the style v style question comes up,can most people go past 2 minutes before throthing at the mouth.

kamon,lets all be brothers sounds great, people will argue the same arguments,and for years decades to come .

you have to realise,and please dont take this as being patronising,that people just wont accept other ways of doing things,not just in martial art.i think bjj is great and can be incorperated in to a wide range of styles.

people get angry when they cannot reply to a post where their style or technique is questioned,its a shock to the system to some to realise all you cherish and love maybe be wrong, and there is indeed a better way of doing something.

people defend they style like a religion,and we all know what the various religions think of each other,some can tolerate,others wont move an inch.

start a thread that states i hearby declare i will participate in this style v style thread,and talk about the similarites and differences with an open mind,and will at no time throw my toys out my pram.

For the most part, I agree with what you're saying. Believe me when I say, I have dealt with the same type of people in the Kenpo world, as I'm dealing with here in the WC section. I've trained in Kenpo for a long time and yes, there're some that think its the ultimate, just like there're people who think WC is the ultimate. As I've said, there is no ultimate art.

I've never tried to convert someone, to try to steer them away from their base art, and join something else. I hold no grudge against WC. I've pointed to many examples to backup my posts, yet people still refuse to take those rose colored glasses and blinders off, and they will still argue with you.

People hear 'grappling' and assume that it means A and only A. If you've read thru any past posts/threads, you would see many examples.

Hey, if someone doesn't want to do it, don't, but just because someone does, does not mean that they're 'tainting' their base art.

[KamonGuy2]

I know black belts in BJJ who mention the need for striking

Even though in a real fight they would probably decimate their opponent, they are stilll very open minded and honest about how BJJ has limited striking. Some train in boxing, some go straight to MMA, some do muay thai, but more often than not, people have come from those arts into BJJ. There is no ego, so why is it different with wing chun?

It just gets frustrating that arts are so defensive about the reputation of the style. If a system works, whats the problem?

[Yoshiyahu]

I am sorry MJS I thought I answer your question?

MJS said "
Is a doctor bad if he goes on to specialize in something? What about a teacher? You have various teachers for each subject. What about a chef?



Well as for a doctor. There are doctors who specialize in animals like a Vet and doctors who specialize in certain field. You have general doctors who are trained in a little bit every thing. But I rather a skilled surgeon cut me open opposed to General Doctor or Nurse who has cross trained lets say in heart surgery.

I perfer a Brain surgeon to operate on my head than a doctor who has studied and practiced a little bit everything. Just my opinion.

An as for teachers. I work in the school system. So I suggest if you want a question about why E=MC square and theory of the Quadratic formula I perfer to go to person well versed in Mathematics. I wouldn't asked a Religion major or Journalist a Phyiscs question. If I had a choice subject from someone in college lets say Geometry. I would rather learn Geometry from someone who specializes in that. I had a Math teacher who specialized in History in junior high...She was an okay math teacher But she taught History way better than math. I work with a guy now who specializes in math. He is a better Math Teacher in my opinion than Reading or English teacher. Although he can teach both. If I was a parent I would have my son/daugther enroll in his math class and enroll English class across the hall. Because the other lady is better english teacher.

Some people are better at certain subjects,Arts, and practices than others. What they are good at they should stick too.


"
I said it before, and I'll say it again. If you want to cross train, fine, do it. If you don't, fine, then don't do it. IMO, we can learn something from every art, and no, you're not tainting yourself, you're improving your skills. I find it interesting how one of my posts in that locked thread went unanswered. It was the one about doctors, teachers, etc. Is a doctor bad if he goes on to specialize in something? What about a teacher? You have various teachers for each subject. What about a chef?

My point....those are people who specialize in something. Nothing wrong with that.

Whats really sad, is how people can run around, so blind to what else is on the table. To each their own I guess.

[elder999]

ISome people are better at certain subjects,Arts, and practices than others. What they are good at they should stick too.


"

And yet, some would have it, that while there is no groundfighting, per se, in traditional wing chun, that wing chun has everything one needs for all ranges of combat, including groundfighting. Which, to me, is rather like saying that one should look to judo, wrestling or BJJ for striking expertise-just plain silly.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well actually WC has some simple Judo techniques and Chin Na techniques. I mostly concentrate on striking. But if I wanted to know more Judo I would retake judo. I personally don't see the purpose of ground fighting unless I am going into the cage. Then learning a Ground game would be something I would definite want to do. But in streets I live by Ground fighting is not done. Unless its friendly. Most of the time people are trying to knock your head off or kick you in the Nutz. If you go to ground...They start pulling hair or biting an if they get off the ground before you hear comes to foot to your head...You get stomped in club going to the ground.


But personally I think its nothing wrong with BJJ per say. Its probably a great art. I did infact like Judo when i took it. But I like Kick boxing better than aikido and judo. I never really seen a use for that stuff except demostrating and playing around. But this is my opinion. I mean dont get me wrong. My WC Sidai was on the wrestling team. So with him i would wrestle. He was great wrestler. Very strong. If I did get him in submissive posistion it would be long before he got out an reversed it on me. But all the fights we had in school never went to ground. Even when we fought multiple attackers.



And yet, some would have it, that while there is no groundfighting, per se, in traditional wing chun, that wing chun has everything one needs for all ranges of combat, including groundfighting. Which, to me, is rather like saying that one should look to judo, wrestling or BJJ for striking expertise-just plain silly.

[kaizasosei]

totally!! Eating the same dish all the time is really bad for you. I heard about this student in japan that was trying to budget himself so he ate nothing but one ramen a day and within a year he died...****in A -way to go huh!?

j

[Yoshiyahu]

Well Wing Chun is not one food. Its one style of food. So we have many different dishes. Just all Chinese. I mean I could try a little japanese and little greek food from time to time. But I dont like greek and japanese food.

Now Wing Chun is like Lam's Garden Restarurant. Where you have numerous dishes of chinese food.

An JJJ is like Shinobi restaruant where you have sushi and many other dishes. I don't like anything on Shinobi menu so i will stick with Lam's Garden.

But I do try other restaruants. I try a little Tai Chi and from time to time Bagua. Just recently I tried some Xing Yi Quan. In the past I tried Tiger and Crane. They are all pretty good. But mostly I eat Wing Chun and from time to time I try some Tai Chi...So I am getting a varitey of Chinese dishes from different systems(Restaruants).


So I guess I do got some variety in there wouldnt you say?
totally!! Eating the same dish all the time is really bad for you. I heard about this student in japan that was trying to budget himself so he ate nothing but one ramen a day and within a year he died...****in A -way to go huh!?

j

[kaizasosei]

No doubt! eat to live..no?
How bout if you're really hungry, would you eat sushi or sashimi?...just make sure it be fresh?, i guess...plenty of good things to eat...just as long as one doesnt get eaten.??

j

[Yoshiyahu]

i dont eat raw fish...so more than likely not...if i was really hungry give me some lamb?

I have a realative that his half japanese. I never liked Japanese food. When I had it as a kid. But in High school I ate some authenic chinese food at friend of my Sidai's house. His friend was Chinese and the food they prepared was nothing like what you get at the chinese restaruants. It was alot healtheir. But it was good.



Japanese food taste a little wierd when I had it. Just my opinion though.



No doubt! eat to live..no?
How bout if you're really hungry, would you eat sushi or sashimi?...just make sure it be fresh?, i guess...plenty of good things to eat...just as long as one doesnt get eaten.??

j

[Si-Je]

Well Wing Chun is not one food. Its one style of food. So we have many different dishes. Just all Chinese. I mean I could try a little japanese and little greek food from time to time. But I dont like greek and japanese food.

Now Wing Chun is like Lam's Garden Restarurant. Where you have numerous dishes of chinese food.

An JJJ is like Shinobi restaruant where you have sushi and many other dishes. I don't like anything on Shinobi menu so i will stick with Lam's Garden.

But I do try other restaruants. I try a little Tai Chi and from time to time Bagua. Just recently I tried some Xing Yi Quan. In the past I tried Tiger and Crane. They are all pretty good. But mostly I eat Wing Chun and from time to time I try some Tai Chi...So I am getting a varitey of Chinese dishes from different systems(Restaruants).


So I guess I do got some variety in there wouldnt you say?


Oh my God! your funny! ROFL! Fighting styles like food... Specialization in Chinese food...
What if WC had Western influences? A little Spanish food? (nevermind, that's just a thing my other teacher rants on about.)

But, funny nevertheless. :p
So, would BJJ be a Brazilian Resturant or Japanese, or would it be an all you eat buffet with all different kinds of dishes mixed in? With Sushie, Feijoada, California Rolls, etc.?

Going to other resturants is fun too from time to time, but the old favorites do stick. I could go for some Greek food, Mexican food is a favorite with a dash of French cuisine (but Zapota hasn't opened a resturant in my neighborhood yet), I wonder what the Russians eat, would try that ;). Japanese food is good if you go to a resturant that makes it for you right there at the table. You can always pick what you want on the hotplate. :)
Funny, man. You rock.

[MJS]

I am sorry MJS I thought I answer your question?

MJS said "


Well as for a doctor. There are doctors who specialize in animals like a Vet and doctors who specialize in certain field. You have general doctors who are trained in a little bit every thing. But I rather a skilled surgeon cut me open opposed to General Doctor or Nurse who has cross trained lets say in heart surgery.

I perfer a Brain surgeon to operate on my head than a doctor who has studied and practiced a little bit everything. Just my opinion.

An as for teachers. I work in the school system. So I suggest if you want a question about why E=MC square and theory of the Quadratic formula I perfer to go to person well versed in Mathematics. I wouldn't asked a Religion major or Journalist a Phyiscs question. If I had a choice subject from someone in college lets say Geometry. I would rather learn Geometry from someone who specializes in that. I had a Math teacher who specialized in History in junior high...She was an okay math teacher But she taught History way better than math. I work with a guy now who specializes in math. He is a better Math Teacher in my opinion than Reading or English teacher. Although he can teach both. If I was a parent I would have my son/daugther enroll in his math class and enroll English class across the hall. Because the other lady is better english teacher.

Some people are better at certain subjects,Arts, and practices than others. What they are good at they should stick too.


"

I think you may be missing my point. You have martial artists, such as yourself and sije, who don't like the idea of crosstraining. You could be compared to the gen. pract. doctor. You have someone like myself who likes to crosstrain and goes to a specialist to improve on a certain area, instead of hoping that my base art will have the answers.

So, if you needed to be cut open, chances are, you'd be going to a specialist. You admit in your above post that you would rather have that. So instead of hoping your gen pract can help you, or instead of hoping that your base art can help you, in both cases, you see a specialist when you need to have surgery and when you need to improve in a certain area.

I have a feeling that this discussion will be about as productive as the last multi page one that is now locked.

[Hand Sword]

:erg:

This is ridiculous! Did I see the statement made that from their fights, even with multiple attackers fights NEVER went to the ground?
That's either serious:
:bs:

where it's now arguing for the sake of arguing or

It's a world called perfect, where I WISH Real fights went that way. Either way I question the validity of the argument, experience being given by the poster, and the purpose of taking part in this forum. I think it's just trolling for the sake of trolling. Every reply is met with a new question, or a scenario that tries to top the other in an endless game.

Either way, I think this topic has been killed, burned to ashes, and scattered to the 4 winds and everywhere in between.

:asian:

[KamonGuy2]

:erg:

This is ridiculous! Did I see the statement made that from their fights, even with multiple attackers fights NEVER went to the ground?
That's either serious:
:bs:

where it's now arguing for the sake of arguing or

It's a world called perfect, where I WISH Real fights went that way. Either way I question the validity of the argument, experience being given by the poster, and the purpose of taking part in this forum. I think it's just trolling for the sake of trolling. Every reply is met with a new question, or a scenario that tries to top the other in an endless game.

Either way, I think this topic has been killed, burned to ashes, and scattered to the 4 winds and everywhere in between.

:asian:
Have a look at Sijes posts. She insists that she will never be taken to the ground.
I can understand people who keep their feet well. If you youtube Kevin Chan at SENI in 2008 you will see him pretty much keeping his feet against another black belt in BJJ, but after a while even he goes to ground

I keep repeating the points, but I'm starting to think that I'm the only chunner posting who has had reall confrontations/fights. I'm a big guy and can hold my stance well, but I have been pushed up against cars, fallen over a bar stool during a tussle, been dragged to the floor by bouncers

I sound like a bit of a yob, but i'm not. I'm a nice guy that gets into bad situations!

[Steve]

Have a look at Sijes posts. She insists that she will never be taken to the ground.
I can understand people who keep their feet well. If you youtube Kevin Chan at SENI in 2008 you will see him pretty much keeping his feet against another black belt in BJJ, but after a while even he goes to ground

I keep repeating the points, but I'm starting to think that I'm the only chunner posting who has had reall confrontations/fights. I'm a big guy and can hold my stance well, but I have been pushed up against cars, fallen over a bar stool during a tussle, been dragged to the floor by bouncers

I sound like a bit of a yob, but i'm not. I'm a nice guy that gets into bad situations!In fairness to Si-Je, I don't think she ever said she wouldn't get taken to the ground. Rather, that her anti-grappling is sufficient to ensure that she can get back up. And that it's completely different from grappling. I don't necessarily agree with her position, but I don't think it's as extreme as to suggest that she's immune to being taken to the ground.

That said, I also think that this particular argument is pretty well finished. I'll point out that there are two terrific BJJ schools in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. One is a Rickson Gracie affiliate (IIRC) and the other is Coach Mohler's school. My coach trained with Mohler until he moved back to the PNW and I know he's a nice guy. So, if anyone in that area wants to find quality BJJ, it's there. Whether for a gong sau challenge match or just to cross train, although I'd recommend the latter. :)


I seen you walkin' down in Chinatown
I called you but you could not look around

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

[KamonGuy2]

In fairness to Si-Je, I don't think she ever said she wouldn't get taken to the ground. Rather, that her anti-grappling is sufficient to ensure that she can get back up. And that it's completely different from grappling. I don't necessarily agree with her position, but I don't think it's as extreme as to suggest that she's immune to being taken to the ground. :)
Nope she said SHE WOULDN'T EVER GET TAKEN TO THE GROUND in one of her earlier conversations with me (I'm not talking about the recent BJJ vs wing chun thread)
I had a very long argument with her, sparked because of that particular comment

I would try and find the post, but I really don't have the time or willpower - I'll let someone else hunt around for it

For me, anti grappling is just a poor phrase. There is grappling and clinchwork. Anti-grappling is basically saying you won't get into a grapple, but if you look at the anti grappling stuff - it is grappling! BJJ, throws (presumably from judo), takedowns

[dungeonworks]

Nope she said SHE WOULDN'T EVER GET TAKEN TO THE GROUND in one of her earlier conversations with me (I'm not talking about the recent BJJ vs wing chun thread)
I had a very long argument with her, sparked because of that particular comment

I would try and find the post, but I really don't have the time or willpower - I'll let someone else hunt around for it

For me, anti grappling is just a poor phrase. There is grappling and clinchwork. Anti-grappling is basically saying you won't get into a grapple, but if you look at the anti grappling stuff - it is grappling! BJJ, throws (presumably from judo), takedowns


For the record, it was "Wing Chun + Brazillian Jiujitsu=". It was derailed into the context of Wing Chun vs BJJ.

[Steve]

:) No problem, Kamon Guy. Between you and me, though, I'm willing to allow people to back off of an extreme position. Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, we overstate our case. I'm guilty of it, too, despite my best efforts.

Regarding anti-grappling, I agree with you completely, but would be open to working out with with an anti-grappler just for fun. I'm not interested in winning or losing, but if someone wants to get together in a friendly way, I'm all for it. I'd like to see what it's about, if anything.

On this note, I read a lot of blogs. One is a grappling tips blog by a credible black belt, Stephan Kesting, out of Vancouver BC. He concludes the blog post with the following statement:
Issac Newton once wrote "If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." I encourage you to accelerate your own progress by standing on the shoulders of giants too. Just keep in mind that some of these useful giants are outside the art of BJJ!
I've been saying this very thing! Original post can be found here (http://www.grapplearts.com/2009/02/incorporating-other-martial-arts-into.htm).

[MJS]

Nope she said SHE WOULDN'T EVER GET TAKEN TO THE GROUND in one of her earlier conversations with me (I'm not talking about the recent BJJ vs wing chun thread)
I had a very long argument with her, sparked because of that particular comment

Must be nice when people can predict what will/will not happen in a fight. *rolls eyes*


I would try and find the post, but I really don't have the time or willpower - I'll let someone else hunt around for it

I don't blame you at all. Its probably not worth rehashing that, as we all know where that'll end up.


For me, anti grappling is just a poor phrase. There is grappling and clinchwork. Anti-grappling is basically saying you won't get into a grapple, but if you look at the anti grappling stuff - it is grappling! BJJ, throws (presumably from judo), takedowns

Exactly!!!! Frankly, I find it odd the way the term is almost hinted that its just a WC thing, because if we stop and think about it, any time anyone attempts to defend against a grappling attack, its an attempt to avoid grappling.

[Yoshiyahu]

But the questions is sometimes you try new foods once or twice. But do really keep eating new foods. Are do we always fall back to the foods we are used to an like best?

I mean dont get me wrong I may have tried other styles of food in the past. But I perfer certain foods which I eat most of the time. Same with my training. Once a year I may try some new dish...But Then i return to good ole stuff I like most.



Oh my God! your funny! ROFL! Fighting styles like food... Specialization in Chinese food...
What if WC had Western influences? A little Spanish food? (nevermind, that's just a thing my other teacher rants on about.)

But, funny nevertheless. :p
So, would BJJ be a Brazilian Resturant or Japanese, or would it be an all you eat buffet with all different kinds of dishes mixed in? With Sushie, Feijoada, California Rolls, etc.?

Going to other resturants is fun too from time to time, but the old favorites do stick. I could go for some Greek food, Mexican food is a favorite with a dash of French cuisine (but Zapota hasn't opened a resturant in my neighborhood yet), I wonder what the Russians eat, would try that ;). Japanese food is good if you go to a resturant that makes it for you right there at the table. You can always pick what you want on the hotplate. :)
Funny, man. You rock.

[Yoshiyahu]

I think you got your idea all wrong. A specialist is someone who specializes in one art. A specialist is compared to purist. An non-specialist is someone who studies a little bit of everything. Specialist only do what they specialise in. While a General doctor may do a variety of different things in different areas. You have people who make all types of swords. An you have those who specialize in making one type Authenic Japanese Sword made for combat. The specialist only makes one type of sword. The Mixed Sword makers makes all kinds of swords. You have someone who specializes in boxing. An you have someone who practices Muay Thai,Boxing, and BJJ.


Remember the movie The five deadly Venoms.

There was sixth student who train in all five styles. But he was no match to fight one of the original Five Venoms because he didn't specialize in one their arts.



I think you may be missing my point. You have martial artists, such as yourself and sije, who don't like the idea of crosstraining. You could be compared to the gen. pract. doctor. You have someone like myself who likes to crosstrain and goes to a specialist to improve on a certain area, instead of hoping that my base art will have the answers.

So, if you needed to be cut open, chances are, you'd be going to a specialist. You admit in your above post that you would rather have that. So instead of hoping your gen pract can help you, or instead of hoping that your base art can help you, in both cases, you see a specialist when you need to have surgery and when you need to improve in a certain area.

I have a feeling that this discussion will be about as productive as the last multi page one that is now locked.

[Steve]

But the questions is sometimes you try new foods once or twice. But do really keep eating new foods. Are do we always fall back to the foods we are used to an like best?

I mean dont get me wrong I may have tried other styles of food in the past. But I perfer certain foods which I eat most of the time. Same with my training. Once a year I may try some new dish...But Then i return to good ole stuff I like most.It depends. I love trying new things and while I have favorites, I try new foods all the time.

Funny story (at least, funny to me). My 13 year old son came home from school one day, just a few weeks ago, and said, "Why didn't you ever make me eat tomato soup!??! I had tomato soup at school today and loved it! We never have tomato soup at home!" He was indignant, until I pointed out that we have tomato soup in the cupboard and I've tried to make it for him many times in the past. When I suggested it, though, it was always, "Yuck. I don't like tomato soup."

My point is that what's being said is often less important than who is saying it.

[skinters]

this is not my post below but sums up things like this for me.

Look many many people feel the need to find an identity for themselves in life. They need to look at something they deem to be larger/better than they are & to be part of a collective. They don't like to find out about themselves is a very honest and true way as an individual, so they look to something outside themselves to create an identity for them e.g. a national identity, religion, culture...

Martial arts can also fill this suppose void for many people. It gives them an identity e.g. "I'm a grappler" or "I'm a karate man" "Or I am TKD'er". It becomes personal because a lot of people seem to think that it is part of their identity.

So when a person says such and such MA is useless, many people, who look to MA to give them their identity, take it as a personal slight. It isn't about martial arts, it is about the people involved.

[MJS]

I think you got your idea all wrong. A specialist is someone who specializes in one art. A specialist is compared to purist. An non-specialist is someone who studies a little bit of everything. Specialist only do what they specialise in. While a General doctor may do a variety of different things in different areas. You have people who make all types of swords. An you have those who specialize in making one type Authenic Japanese Sword made for combat. The specialist only makes one type of sword. The Mixed Sword makers makes all kinds of swords. You have someone who specializes in boxing. An you have someone who practices Muay Thai,Boxing, and BJJ.


Remember the movie The five deadly Venoms.

There was sixth student who train in all five styles. But he was no match to fight one of the original Five Venoms because he didn't specialize in one their arts.

My God, I can't believe we're still talking about this. The whole idea is whether or not you can use WC and its grappling methods or if you need to go to someone who grapples. I said in another post, that pretty much every art has its methods of dealing with a grappler, BUT, if you want to improve on that area, you will need to go to a grappling based art.

If you want to crosstrain, do it. If you don't, then don't.

[bs10927]

My God, I can't believe we're still talking about this. The whole idea is whether or not you can use WC and its grappling methods or if you need to go to someone who grapples. I said in another post, that pretty much every art has its methods of dealing with a grappler, BUT, if you want to improve on that area, you will need to go to a grappling based art.

If you want to crosstrain, do it. If you don't, then don't.


Please explain...lol...just kiddin

[Yoshiyahu]

The question is do you try the new things as much as your favorites? Or do you eat your favorites more?



It depends. I love trying new things and while I have favorites, I try new foods all the time.

Funny story (at least, funny to me). My 13 year old son came home from school one day, just a few weeks ago, and said, "Why didn't you ever make me eat tomato soup!??! I had tomato soup at school today and loved it! We never have tomato soup at home!" He was indignant, until I pointed out that we have tomato soup in the cupboard and I've tried to make it for him many times in the past. When I suggested it, though, it was always, "Yuck. I don't like tomato soup."

My point is that what's being said is often less important than who is saying it.

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh but I am saying a specialist usually sticks with one Art. An he is more proficient at the one art than someone who practices five arts including the one he trains. But as for cross training because you enjoy it...or grappling because you like grappling...thats nothing wrong with it. But it all depends on your motives. Is it because you want to be a better fighter. Or a better Tournament fighter. If you want to fight in the cage or mma tournments. True you better get a ground game...But if you want to be able perfect your Gung Fu or Karate...then you need to specialize in it for decades. So that way you will be tough fighter not many can rival with!

Did you read my post...its nothing wrong with grappling. An if you were a good grappler before learning WC then you may be able to fuse the two...But you will be a better fighter on the ground than standing up in my opinion. Me personally I dont care for the ground. i never liked the idea of rolling around on the ground with another men trying to get him into a submissive posistion. But I know in the street it could be useful to use some of the techs for breaking limbs and neck breaks. But also one could study from a qualified Chin Na Specialist and have some of the same techniques standing. But as for Grappling and Wing Chun mixing. I dont think it would be wing chun anymore...in my opinion it would be something else. But if it works for you great. I personally never was good at grappling an since I dont know many grapplers right now I dont have sparring practice I need to advoid take downs and defeat standing with gloves on probably. Now in a street fight. I would because I would cheat. But in street there is no such thing as cheating.

But Like I said I never was good at ground fighting...So I never really invested in it. I never really seen the point of rolling on the ground. As a child I always loved Watching Kung Fu movies and Bruce lee movies. But I hated watching wrestling. So since I dislike wrestling that may be the reason why im not good at it. Because I dont practice it. But I would love to spar Wrestlers on regular basis. In about five years of sparring a wrestler on a regular basis then I would be able to advoid a take down from any grappler on my skill level or below. Now a grappler who is more skilled than I am...Welll any fighter with more skills and strength will probably win. Thats the name of game. The one with the most skills wins.

I dont expect to be able to defeat a WC guy who has been practicing WC for thirty years eight hours a day since he was five. But the same applies to someone who has been studing TKD for thirty years and is able to use his hands and feet in street fights successfully. Not just point sparring.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1122153#post1122153)
I think you got your idea all wrong. A specialist is someone who specializes in one art. A specialist is compared to purist. An non-specialist is someone who studies a little bit of everything. Specialist only do what they specialise in. While a General doctor may do a variety of different things in different areas. You have people who make all types of swords. An you have those who specialize in making one type Authenic Japanese Sword made for combat. The specialist only makes one type of sword. The Mixed Sword makers makes all kinds of swords. You have someone who specializes in boxing. An you have someone who practices Muay Thai,Boxing, and BJJ.


Remember the movie The five deadly Venoms.

There was sixth student who train in all five styles. But he was no match to fight one of the original Five Venoms because he didn't specialize in one their arts.


My God, I can't believe we're still talking about this. The whole idea is whether or not you can use WC and its grappling methods or if you need to go to someone who grapples. I said in another post, that pretty much every art has its methods of dealing with a grappler, BUT, if you want to improve on that area, you will need to go to a grappling based art.

If you want to crosstrain, do it. If you don't, then don't.

[Hand Sword]

Have a look at Sijes posts. She insists that she will never be taken to the ground.
I can understand people who keep their feet well. If you youtube Kevin Chan at SENI in 2008 you will see him pretty much keeping his feet against another black belt in BJJ, but after a while even he goes to ground

I keep repeating the points, but I'm starting to think that I'm the only chunner posting who has had reall confrontations/fights. I'm a big guy and can hold my stance well, but I have been pushed up against cars, fallen over a bar stool during a tussle, been dragged to the floor by bouncers

I sound like a bit of a yob, but i'm not. I'm a nice guy that gets into bad situations!
Exactly my point! These posters are trolling IMHO. They speak in absolutes, when in real life there is no such thing. It changes from 1/2 second to 1/2 second. There no such thing as "never" whether it's the ability to not being taken down (even against multiple attackers) or whatever. Having the mindset that they do, and posts they way that they do leads me to the same conclusion--NO REAL EXPERIENCE, in spite of claims of having it. So, it's just arguing to keep an argument going. It's a dead issue. Allow them to live in a perfect bubble world as they are not interested in the least of expanding knowledge or themselves. I think we all have indulged them enough, and beyond so!

[Eru Ilúvatar]

BJJ sucks and WC sucks even more! :redeme:

[Hand Sword]

That's right! We ALL know that Kempo rules. So, it's all a moot point! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Hagakure]

That's right! We ALL know that Kempo rules. So, it's all a moot point! http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif


Quite true, except, that MY WC is better than your Kempo. :P Because I say so. ;)

I cannot believe, that this, has happened again, SO SOON after the last one? I'm staggered. I'm sat here smiling, through bewilderment, that a group of people, with generally a like mind, have come together to argue about nothing again. However. Don't let me stop you, I'm watching the train wreck that this may become.

Hold on guys 'n' girls, just off to the kitchen to get the popcorn. :D Anyone fancies coming round to watch, you're more than welcome.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Hold on guys 'n' girls, just off to the kitchen to get the popcorn. :D Anyone fancies coming round to watch, you're more than welcome.

Me me me!

[KamonGuy2]

Yeah but who would win in a fight between Bruce Lee and Muhammed Ali...?

Just thought I'd randomly contribute something...

We're talking about BJJ and wing chun? Oh! Ok then...

As I have said before, just get along to a BJJ class, work out with some of the guys there and you'll start to see how useful BJJ can be to your art
Don't go in trying to analyze how you would 'beat up the BJJ instructor', just get some of the basics and you might understand what I'm saying

Thankyou MJS, stevebjj, etc for your useful posts. It is good to discuss these topics, even though they tend to derail or implode, because some chunners are so brainwashed by their champion sifu that they will not go and look around (or in some cases like Jim Fungs academy - forbidden to look around)

It is a testament to wing chun stubborness that the wc + BJJ thread was 20 something pages long

Good day to you all...

[Hagakure]

Me me me!

:D

Cool, my mobile is 079... no wait... bad idea.

PM me, we can arrange it then. ;) Lol.

KG, obviously, Bruce Lee would win. *rolls eyes*

[bs10927]

Yeah but who would win in a fight between Bruce Lee and Muhammed Ali...?

Just thought I'd randomly contribute something...

We're talking about BJJ and wing chun? Oh! Ok then...

As I have said before, just get along to a BJJ class, work out with some of the guys there and you'll start to see how useful BJJ can be to your art
Don't go in trying to analyze how you would 'beat up the BJJ instructor', just get some of the basics and you might understand what I'm saying

Thankyou MJS, stevebjj, etc for your useful posts. It is good to discuss these topics, even though they tend to derail or implode, because some chunners are so brainwashed by their champion sifu that they will not go and look around (or in some cases like Jim Fungs academy - forbidden to look around)

It is a testament to wing chun stubborness that the wc + BJJ thread was 20 something pages long

Good day to you all...

but....but....my sifu said not to fall down....lol :)

[skinters]

let the thread run,nobody has said anything out of order. its gone from arguing and bitching, to over the top politicly polite wise.

someone remind us all what the original thread was about,and go from there,its easy to look back on the thread to see why and who couldnt have an adult conversation.

cmon lets makes a bit of history and be the first to get somewhere with all this .you never know you might suprise yourselves.

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh hey...I am not brainwashed. I really just dislike Wrestling and Western Martial Arts. I never liked Western Fighting much. I dont think much of it. I am sure its really good. I just perfer not to train or watch western fighting. It bores me.

So for me I could not say BJJ is bad art. Even if it was the only undefeatable art in whole world. I still wouldn't care for it. Because I always disliked wrestling!



Yeah but who would win in a fight between Bruce Lee and Muhammed Ali...?



Just thought I'd randomly contribute something...

We're talking about BJJ and wing chun? Oh! Ok then...

As I have said before, just get along to a BJJ class, work out with some of the guys there and you'll start to see how useful BJJ can be to your art
Don't go in trying to analyze how you would 'beat up the BJJ instructor', just get some of the basics and you might understand what I'm saying

Thankyou MJS, stevebjj, etc for your useful posts. It is good to discuss these topics, even though they tend to derail or implode, because some chunners are so brainwashed by their champion sifu that they will not go and look around (or in some cases like Jim Fungs academy - forbidden to look around)

It is a testament to wing chun stubborness that the wc + BJJ thread was 20 something pages long

Good day to you all...

[Steve]

Oh hey...I am not brainwashed. I really just dislike Wrestling and Western Martial Arts. I never liked Western Fighting much. I dont think much of it. I am sure its really good. I just perfer not to train or watch western fighting. It bores me.

So for me I could not say BJJ is bad art. Even if it was the only undefeatable art in whole world. I still wouldn't care for it. Because I always disliked wrestling!For what it's worth, BJJ is neither Western nor Wrestling. Ask Josh Barnett and he'll tell you all about the differences between BJJ and Wrestling (specifically Catch as Catch Can Wrestling).

That's like saying, I hate boxing and I hate Western Arts. So, you'll never see me train Wing Chun. But no offense. ;)

[skinters]

Oh hey...I am not brainwashed. I really just dislike Wrestling and Western Martial Arts. I never liked Western Fighting much. I dont think much of it. I am sure its really good. I just perfer not to train or watch western fighting. It bores me.

So for me I could not say BJJ is bad art. Even if it was the only undefeatable art in whole world. I still wouldn't care for it. Because I always disliked wrestling!

yosh

shuai jiao is a chinese wrestling style orginating in china.which is about the earliest examples.it is also chinas first martial art.

you also have wrestling from almost every country in the world,greek roman, from the earliest.up to the present day wrestling is not BJJ .

the word wrestling is an old english word which means hand to hand combat.

dont mean to dish out a history lesson,but what you assume as being purely western is quite the opposite.

[Yoshiyahu]

What is BJJ but Brazilian Jitjiusu?

Is Brazil located in China or Africa? How is Brazil not western? Was it not Westerners or descendants of Westerners who reformed JJJ or AikiJuijitsu into Brazilian Jiujitsu? Wasn't Brazilian Jitjitsu refined and developed from the Gracie Famil via Maeda? Aren't the Gracies considered Westerners? What ethnicity and nationality is Gracie?


Isnt ground fighting another form of wrestling...or Ground grappling...Why isnt BJJ not wrestling...Is not BJJ a derivitive of Judo and Japanese Jujustu. Wasn't Maeda the one who taught Kano Jiu-Jitsu to Carlos Gracie. Isn't Carlos Gracie the founder of BJJ. His brothers along with him are co-founders They are: Helio Gracie who learn when he got older and healthier, Osvaldo, Gastão and Jorge.

The Gracice Family are the ones who Develop Their system. They refined their techniques for ground fighting. The idea behind the grappling on the ground is to give a smaller opponent an advantage against bigger stronger opponent who is more skilled in striking. A stronger foe has superior reach and more powerful strikes. On the ground a BJJ Specialist can use his techniques to out manuever a striker and gaining the dominant posistion. Then pass the foes guards to dominate from the top posistion. Or when on the bottom use the guard posistion to defend. Once you have a dominate posistion then manipulate your foe so you gain a choke hold,submission or joint lock. This is BJJ is it not? I Just don't care for it. It sounds like a great art...But realistically I wouldnt use it accept for sparring wrestlers.

I wouldnt use it in the streets. I would never feel comfortable using a ground game in the streets. But using Chang Quan against numerous attackers I would feel more comfortable. So I think to cross train I would choose something like Changquan or TKD or Hung Gar. Just my thoughts of course. Its my mere small inkling of an opinion. Don't mean to offend. Personally BJJ is not for me. My mind doesn't mesh well with BJJ.

My personal Opinion or Point of View of Brazilian Jujitsu:

I personally dislike Wrestling. I always have. I hated watching Wrestling on Television with Andre the Giant, Hulk Hogan and many others when I was a child. My Friends would be all into it. I never liked it. I even hung out with a wrestling clique when I was in Junior High. But I always went to striking to defeat other kids in the group. I never did like the whole ground thing. We did it for fun. But I never really was at any good at the ground thing because I don't like it. I started watching UFC until they started having a whole lot of ground fighting. When I started seeing the Gracies beating the karate guys all the time. Thats when i stop watching UFC. I enjoyed seeing other striking styles fight. But I never like to see guys on the ground wrestling and rolling. I can do it But I just don't enjoy it. I never cared for ground fighting. It may be a great art. But not for me!

So in my thoughts BJJ is just Wrestling or (Ground Fighting or Grappling).

I don't care for ground stuff. Its just me. If I did I would have stayed in Aikido and Judo. I never really liked that stuff. I asked my parents as a kid to get me into karate or kung fu. Instead I got Aikido for like six months. An then there was Judo for awhile. I hated that stuff. But it was cool it gave me something to do. I never liked it an found it utterly useless by it self. I mean maybe If I got a black belt in Aikido it may be useful. But With Striking arts its easier to prevail because everyone in the streets is a striker from birth where I come from. That way knowing a little something even at a white belt level will give you an edge if you already a striker.

You say BJJ is not Wrestling?


According to merriam webster wrestling is:

Wrestling = "a sport or contest in which two unarmed individuals struggle hand to hand with each attempting to subdue or unbalance the other "

Grappling = "transitive verb 1 : to seize with or as if with a grapple 2 : to come to grips with : wrestle (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wrestle) 3 : to bind closely"

www.m-w.com (http://www.m-w.com)


Please lighten up don't be so over critical of everything I say. No need to be offended because I dislike how an art looks!


For what it's worth, BJJ is neither Western nor Wrestling. Ask Josh Barnett and he'll tell you all about the differences between BJJ and Wrestling (specifically Catch as Catch Can Wrestling).

That's like saying, I hate boxing and I hate Western Arts. So, you'll never see me train Wing Chun. But no offense. ;)



I am familiar with Shuao Jiao. As for western fighters. Wrestling is what westerners are most noted for. Striking arts are more note worthy from easterners. I simply dislike Wrestling I just don't care for it. Never have. I always loved watching people flow in standing combat from one hand or foot technique to other. I love to see throws and joint locks from a standing posistion. Even sweeps and take downs are great to me. But in life threathen fluent flowing combat, My goal will be to break or unconscious my opponent. Not Submit or choke out my opponent. The only place I could phatom using BJJ is if I were to break into someones home an do something illegal or immoral to a person who is alone. But as for actual street encounters or someone breaking in to my home. I my main goal would be to hurt him them bad. If they wrestle me to ground. I will bite skin from their ankle,groin,thigh,nipple,eye,jaw bone,ear,adams apple. If I got one hand free an they are in the dominant posistion. I trying to pull off their lip,ear,poke their eyes,squeeze and rip the groin, squeeze the throat and or maybe break a limb if I have the leverage from on bottom.

Thats why I am fascinated with Tiger Claw. I have been reluctant to asked my Sifu to train me in Tiger Claw. Because I am not ready to start a whole nother style. But I would love the kung which is the crushing power. I heard some people have such strong crushing power they can crush a hard baseball. With that sorta of power in my hands. A wrestler adams apple, scrotums or even the sides of their kidneys would be my target on the bottom posistion. I am also fascinated with piercing fingers like for snake fighters. Because having two kungs like that would be useful to end ground fights quickly if they ever happen in the street. Simple crust or thrust your fingers through a soft spot...

But I know to do so would take alot of work an dedication and training to maintain and achieve. But it would be worth it an enhance ones Wing Chun Seven fold.

But I never cared for being on the ground. I dont really like it!


yosh

shuai jiao is a chinese wrestling style orginating in china.which is about the earliest examples.it is also chinas first martial art.

you also have wrestling from almost every country in the world,greek roman, from the earliest.up to the present day wrestling is not BJJ .

the word wrestling is an old english word which means hand to hand combat.

dont mean to dish out a history lesson,but what you assume as being purely western is quite the opposite.

[Hand Sword]

but....but....my sifu said not to fall down....lol :)



It's ok! Don't worry. You won't have to fall down. This is the world of "perfect" where there is no going down-ever! So, you're invincible! No worries! :)

[Steve]

Yoshi, you're entitled to your opinion. Mine is that BJJ is a nephew to traditional jujutsu and a cousin to judo. I also believe that it's as much wrestling as WC is western boxing. But if you want to over generalize, once again you're undermining the discussion. I will say, though, that since you admit you don't like grappling, can I suggest you take my word for this? I mean, since I, you know, am a grappler. In return, if the conversation turns to chain punching I'll defer to you.

Apologies for typos if any. Posting from phone.

[Carol]

Well ya know guys...

We all know that Force = Mass x Acceleration. FMA ;)

:redcaptur

[Hand Sword]

Yoshi, you're entitled to your opinion. Mine is that BJJ is a nephew to traditional jujutsu and a cousin to judo. I also believe that it's as much wrestling as WC is western boxing. But if you want to over generalize, once again you're undermining the discussion. I will say, though, that since you admit you don't like grappling, can I suggest you take my word for this? I mean, since I, you know, am a grappler. In return, if the conversation turns to chain punching I'll defer to you.

Apologies for typos if any. Posting from phone.

STEVE!!!!!!!!! EVERYONE!!! Please!!
:feedtroll

Just let it go and die dudes and dudettes.

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea you had a typo on on judo,Yoshiyahu,generalize BJJ Boxing and WC. But I edited it for you an mae the corrections...So I hope your happy...Did you see the definition i shared for wrestiling and grappling...But let me state I dont like ground grappling.



Yoshi, you're entitled to your opinion. Mine is that BJJ is a nephew to traditional jujutsu and a cousin to judo. I also believe that it's as much wrestling as WC is western boxing. But if you want to over generalize, once again you're undermining the discussion. I will say, though, that since you admit you don't like grappling, can I suggest you take my word for this? I mean, since I, you know, am a grappler. In return, if the conversation turns to chain punching I'll defer to you.Apologies for typos if any. Posting from phone.

You called me a troll how mean...I dont like being called a troll how mean!



Originally Posted by Hand Sword STEVE!!!!!!!!! EVERYONE!!! Please!!
:feedtroll

Just let it go and die dudes and dudettes.

[MJS]

Oh but I am saying a specialist usually sticks with one Art. An he is more proficient at the one art than someone who practices five arts including the one he trains. But as for cross training because you enjoy it...or grappling because you like grappling...thats nothing wrong with it. But it all depends on your motives. Is it because you want to be a better fighter. Or a better Tournament fighter. If you want to fight in the cage or mma tournments. True you better get a ground game...But if you want to be able perfect your Gung Fu or Karate...then you need to specialize in it for decades. So that way you will be tough fighter not many can rival with!

Did you read my post...its nothing wrong with grappling. An if you were a good grappler before learning WC then you may be able to fuse the two...But you will be a better fighter on the ground than standing up in my opinion. Me personally I dont care for the ground. i never liked the idea of rolling around on the ground with another men trying to get him into a submissive posistion. But I know in the street it could be useful to use some of the techs for breaking limbs and neck breaks. But also one could study from a qualified Chin Na Specialist and have some of the same techniques standing. But as for Grappling and Wing Chun mixing. I dont think it would be wing chun anymore...in my opinion it would be something else. But if it works for you great. I personally never was good at grappling an since I dont know many grapplers right now I dont have sparring practice I need to advoid take downs and defeat standing with gloves on probably. Now in a street fight. I would because I would cheat. But in street there is no such thing as cheating.

But Like I said I never was good at ground fighting...So I never really invested in it. I never really seen the point of rolling on the ground. As a child I always loved Watching Kung Fu movies and Bruce lee movies. But I hated watching wrestling. So since I dislike wrestling that may be the reason why im not good at it. Because I dont practice it. But I would love to spar Wrestlers on regular basis. In about five years of sparring a wrestler on a regular basis then I would be able to advoid a take down from any grappler on my skill level or below. Now a grappler who is more skilled than I am...Welll any fighter with more skills and strength will probably win. Thats the name of game. The one with the most skills wins.

I dont expect to be able to defeat a WC guy who has been practicing WC for thirty years eight hours a day since he was five. But the same applies to someone who has been studing TKD for thirty years and is able to use his hands and feet in street fights successfully. Not just point sparring.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1122153#post1122153)
I think you got your idea all wrong. A specialist is someone who specializes in one art. A specialist is compared to purist. An non-specialist is someone who studies a little bit of everything. Specialist only do what they specialise in. While a General doctor may do a variety of different things in different areas. You have people who make all types of swords. An you have those who specialize in making one type Authenic Japanese Sword made for combat. The specialist only makes one type of sword. The Mixed Sword makers makes all kinds of swords. You have someone who specializes in boxing. An you have someone who practices Muay Thai,Boxing, and BJJ.


Remember the movie The five deadly Venoms.

There was sixth student who train in all five styles. But he was no match to fight one of the original Five Venoms because he didn't specialize in one their arts.

See if you can follow this. Pretty much every art out there addresses certain areas of fighting. Kenpo has techs. to deal with weapons, grabs, chokes, punches, grappling attacks, etc. A wide assortment of things, but I would not say that it specializes in one particular thing. Now, lets take BJJ, where the main focus is on the ground. I have not seen much if any foucs at all on punching and kicking and this should be very apparent by watching Royce.

So, my point of this, while our arts focus on many things, if we wanted to improve on the weapons work, we'd need to go to a weapon based art, the same with the ground.

Just because someone trains in one art, does not mean that it always specializes in one thing.

[MJS]

What is BJJ but Brazilian Jitjiusu?

Is Brazil located in China or Africa? How is Brazil not western? Was it not Westerners or descendants of Westerners who reformed JJJ or AikiJuijitsu into Brazilian Jiujitsu? Wasn't Brazilian Jitjitsu refined and developed from the Gracie Famil via Maeda? Aren't the Gracies considered Westerners? What ethnicity and nationality is Gracie?


Isnt ground fighting another form of wrestling...or Ground grappling...Why isnt BJJ not wrestling...Is not BJJ a derivitive of Judo and Japanese Jujustu. Wasn't Maeda the one who taught Kano Jiu-Jitsu to Carlos Gracie. Isn't Carlos Gracie the founder of BJJ. His brothers along with him are co-founders They are: Helio Gracie who learn when he got older and healthier, Osvaldo, Gastão and Jorge.

The Gracice Family are the ones who Develop Their system. They refined their techniques for ground fighting. The idea behind the grappling on the ground is to give a smaller opponent an advantage against bigger stronger opponent who is more skilled in striking. A stronger foe has superior reach and more powerful strikes. On the ground a BJJ Specialist can use his techniques to out manuever a striker and gaining the dominant posistion. Then pass the foes guards to dominate from the top posistion. Or when on the bottom use the guard posistion to defend. Once you have a dominate posistion then manipulate your foe so you gain a choke hold,submission or joint lock. This is BJJ is it not? I Just don't care for it. It sounds like a great art...But realistically I wouldnt use it accept for sparring wrestlers.

I wouldnt use it in the streets. I would never feel comfortable using a ground game in the streets. But using Chang Quan against numerous attackers I would feel more comfortable. So I think to cross train I would choose something like Changquan or TKD or Hung Gar. Just my thoughts of course. Its my mere small inkling of an opinion. Don't mean to offend. Personally BJJ is not for me. My mind doesn't mesh well with BJJ.

My personal Opinion or Point of View of Brazilian Jujitsu:


So in my thoughts BJJ is just Wrestling or (Ground Fighting or Grappling).

I don't care for ground stuff. Its just me. If I did I would have stayed in Aikido and Judo. I never really liked that stuff. I asked my parents as a kid to get me into karate or kung fu. Instead I got Aikido for like six months. An then there was Judo for awhile. I hated that stuff. But it was cool it gave me something to do. I never liked it an found it utterly useless by it self. I mean maybe If I got a black belt in Aikido it may be useful. But With Striking arts its easier to prevail because everyone in the streets is a striker from birth where I come from. That way knowing a little something even at a white belt level will give you an edge if you already a striker.

You say BJJ is not Wrestling?


According to merriam webster wrestling is:

Wrestling = "a sport or contest in which two unarmed individuals struggle hand to hand with each attempting to subdue or unbalance the other "

Grappling = "transitive verb 1 : to seize with or as if with a grapple 2 : to come to grips with : wrestle (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wrestle) 3 : to bind closely"

www.m-w.com (http://www.m-w.com)


Please lighten up don't be so over critical of everything I say. No need to be offended because I dislike how an art looks!





I am familiar with Shuao Jiao. As for western fighters. Wrestling is what westerners are most noted for. Striking arts are more note worthy from easterners. I simply dislike Wrestling I just don't care for it. Never have. I always loved watching people flow in standing combat from one hand or foot technique to other. I love to see throws and joint locks from a standing posistion. Even sweeps and take downs are great to me. But in life threathen fluent flowing combat, My goal will be to break or unconscious my opponent. Not Submit or choke out my opponent. The only place I could phatom using BJJ is if I were to break into someones home an do something illegal or immoral to a person who is alone. But as for actual street encounters or someone breaking in to my home. I my main goal would be to hurt him them bad. If they wrestle me to ground. I will bite skin from their ankle,groin,thigh,nipple,eye,jaw bone,ear,adams apple. If I got one hand free an they are in the dominant posistion. I trying to pull off their lip,ear,poke their eyes,squeeze and rip the groin, squeeze the throat and or maybe break a limb if I have the leverage from on bottom.

Thats why I am fascinated with Tiger Claw. I have been reluctant to asked my Sifu to train me in Tiger Claw. Because I am not ready to start a whole nother style. But I would love the kung which is the crushing power. I heard some people have such strong crushing power they can crush a hard baseball. With that sorta of power in my hands. A wrestler adams apple, scrotums or even the sides of their kidneys would be my target on the bottom posistion. I am also fascinated with piercing fingers like for snake fighters. Because having two kungs like that would be useful to end ground fights quickly if they ever happen in the street. Simple crust or thrust your fingers through a soft spot...

But I know to do so would take alot of work an dedication and training to maintain and achieve. But it would be worth it an enhance ones Wing Chun Seven fold.

But I never cared for being on the ground. I dont really like it!

Changed my mind. I had a reply, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it was pointless to reply.

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay using BJJ whats the best defense against a Kwan Dao sword?



Also what arts do you study that specifically deals with weapons?




See if you can follow this. Pretty much every art out there addresses certain areas of fighting. Kenpo has techs. to deal with weapons, grabs, chokes, punches, grappling attacks, etc. A wide assortment of things, but I would not say that it specializes in one particular thing. Now, lets take BJJ, where the main focus is on the ground. I have not seen much if any foucs at all on punching and kicking and this should be very apparent by watching Royce.

So, my point of this, while our arts focus on many things, if we wanted to improve on the weapons work, we'd need to go to a weapon based art, the same with the ground.

Just because someone trains in one art, does not mean that it always specializes in one thing.

[Steve]

STEVE!!!!!!!!! EVERYONE!!! Please!!
:feedtroll

Just let it go and die dudes and dudettes.Of course you're right. I just can't help myself!

[profesormental]

Okay using BJJ whats the best defense against a Kwan Dao sword?


What kind of question is that?

I stopped posting, yet MAN! What is the point that you want to make?

What knowledge do you want to impart? What do you want to learn?

This is the path of pointless exploration. If you're just bored, then I would understand, because I could see the humor in messing around like this. But MAN! A frikin Kwan Dao?

Yet there are much more important questions, issues and discussions that we can invest our time in.

Man... a Kwan Dao...

[jarrod]

i like to enjoy a good grappling workout, then go to my favorite chinese restaurant & order a plate of General Kwon Dao's Chicken. hm-mm! that's i deal with a Kwon Dao attack.

jf

[MJS]

Okay using BJJ whats the best defense against a Kwan Dao sword?

Now if this isn't a fine example of you contradicting yourself, I dont know what is. Here you are again, with your style vs. style debates. Yet in this (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1123292&postcount=201) post, you said:

"But the whole idea of which style is better is nonsense...there are no unbeatable styles. Maybe an unbeatable fighter. But not style...WC is not even a style of Kung Fu...its a system."

You sure you're not trolling? You really need to stop posting such crazy stuff like that. Keep on violating those forum rules though.




Also what arts do you study that specifically deals with weapons?

The FMAs, such as Arnis, Kali, etc. While they contain some devastating empty hand stuff, they are primarily weapon based arts. My use and understanding of the blade and stick have grown tenfold, since I've been training in Arnis.

[skinters]

What kind of question is that?

I stopped posting, yet MAN! What is the point that you want to make?

What knowledge do you want to impart? What do you want to learn?

This is the path of pointless exploration. If you're just bored, then I would understand, because I could see the humor in messing around like this. But MAN! A frikin Kwan Dao?

Yet there are much more important questions, issues and discussions that we can invest our time in.

Man... a Kwan Dao...

this is exaclty why i have said the posts are aimless and confusing,there is so much understanding and depth to be debated over with the basics alone.

the whole wingchun board needs to be cleaned up,im looking at some of it trying to get my head around an answer to some of these random topics.

keep posting prof,i appreciate your input.

[qwksilver61]

If it's any consolation The EBMAS school is incorporating Wing Tzun into ground fighting....pretty good stuff...imagine mansau-wusau with your legs on the ground..there are also dismount techniques we were shown right off the bat at the last seminar...cool stuff...

[dungeonworks]

If it's any consolation The EBMAS school is incorporating Wing Tzun into ground fighting....pretty good stuff...imagine mansau-wusau with your legs on the ground..there are also dismount techniques we were shown right off the bat at the last seminar...cool stuff...

We've messed with those type of things on the ground too and I thought to myself, "Hey, this would mesh really well with BJJ!". I posted a thread about it and BAM!!! TRAINWRECK!!! :ultracool

Ah well, some people get it and some people never will, until they get beat up for real.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well I would like to learn from your experiences and opinions. Anyway as for freaking kwan dao. I here that you guys defend against weapons. I was thinking of investing in Kwan Dao knife. I want to know what possible defense against Kwand Dao knife would be please share?


AS for trolling...What we eat is humans...fee fi fo fum I spell the blood of English man. Feed me I am the troll that lies beneath the streets.


:dalek:


What kind of question is that?

I stopped posting, yet MAN! What is the point that you want to make?

What knowledge do you want to impart? What do you want to learn?

This is the path of pointless exploration. If you're just bored, then I would understand, because I could see the humor in messing around like this. But MAN! A frikin Kwan Dao?

Yet there are much more important questions, issues and discussions that we can invest our time in.

Man... a Kwan Dao...

[Hand Sword]

Well I would like to learn from your experiences and opinions. Anyway as for freaking kwan dao. I here that you guys defend against weapons. I was thinking of investing in Kwan Dao knife. I want to know what possible defense against Kwand Dao knife would be please share?
:lol: :lol: :lol: Now, that's Funny and a load of :bs:



AS for trolling...What we eat is humans...fee fi fo fum I spell the blood of English man. Feed me I am the troll that lies beneath the streets.


:dalek:
And you actually asked me why I called you a troll???????

[Yoshiyahu]

Handsword are there any arts that wouldnt mesh with WC well...

Are there any ground arts that would hinder a wing chun fighter in your opinion. Are do you believe all ground arts can mesh perfectly with wing chun?



:lol: :lol: :lol: Now, that's Funny and a load of :bs:


And you actually asked me why I called you a troll???????

[KamonGuy2]

Handsword are there any arts that wouldnt mesh with WC well...

Are there any ground arts that would hinder a wing chun fighter in your opinion. Are do you believe all ground arts can mesh perfectly with wing chun?

I go away for three days and a thread explodes… Guys, what is going on?
No art has the answer to everything
Yoshi – what an insanely stupid question about the sword. What if I came at you with a tank? (that’s rhetorical Yoshi, don’t spend the whole week coming up with an answer)
Stevebjj – don’t let people get to you. BJJ is a fantastic art, trained by humble guys
BJJ works, simple as that.
It is a great companion to wing chun. When you train it in a gym etc, of course you are going to be ‘rolling around on the floor’. But they also train in realism (no gi training etc)
But like everything, you take what works for you from an art. I’ll never be a black belt in BJJ or compete in tournaments, but I train enough of it so that if I am taking to the floor suddenly, I can get out of the situation or get into a better position to use my strikes.
Let’s all take a deep breath and relax. Chunners – go and practice some SLT…

[Yoshiyahu]

Thank you very much...with that i take it you guys feel the kwan dao has no defense against it even with another weapon...great. i am glad to hear that...i hope mostly other Wing Chunners and BJJ people think as you do. I will invest in a Kwan Dao as well with combat steel. So if i decide to attack people who think like you...there is no defense...thank you for your input...

As for trolling...i may not be on here much longer...i may be banned....many of you guys dont like me or my post...so i feel this forum is not the place for me. i look forward to wing chun forums being created by Wing Chun purist. but until then i will have to go to other forums...

my trolling is me coming truthfully with my thoughts and experiences.

you guys truly anger me.



I go away for three days and a thread explodes… Guys, what is going on?
No art has the answer to everything
Yoshi – what an insanely stupid question about the sword. What if I came at you with a tank? (that’s rhetorical Yoshi, don’t spend the whole week coming up with an answer)
Stevebjj – don’t let people get to you. BJJ is a fantastic art, trained by humble guys
BJJ works, simple as that.
It is a great companion to wing chun. When you train it in a gym etc, of course you are going to be ‘rolling around on the floor’. But they also train in realism (no gi training etc)
But like everything, you take what works for you from an art. I’ll never be a black belt in BJJ or compete in tournaments, but I train enough of it so that if I am taking to the floor suddenly, I can get out of the situation or get into a better position to use my strikes.
Let’s all take a deep breath and relax. Chunners – go and practice some SLT…

[elder999]

Thank you very much...with that i take it you guys feel the kwan dao has no defense against it even with another weapon...great. i am glad to hear that...i hope mostly other Wing Chunners and BJJ people think as you do. I will invest in a Kwan Dao as well with combat steel. So if i decide to attack people who think like you...there is no defense...thank you for your input...

.

Glock. :rolleyes: :lfao:




As for trolling...i may not be on here much longer...i may be banned
you guys truly anger me.

Okay, buh-bye, and take yer little red wagon with you, m'kay? :lfao:

[Yoshiyahu]

first real answer...wow...not too many people even wanna touch that subject. I was just woundering.




Glock. :rolleyes: :lfao:



Okay, buh-bye, and take yer little red wagon with you, m'kay? :lfao:

[Steve]

Thank you very much...with that i take it you guys feel the kwan dao has no defense against it even with another weapon...great. i am glad to hear that...i hope mostly other Wing Chunners and BJJ people think as you do. I will invest in a Kwan Dao as well with combat steel. So if i decide to attack people who think like you...there is no defense...thank you for your input...I have no idea what the hell a kwan dao is. Is that a style of kung fu?


As for trolling...i may not be on here much longer...i may be banned....many of you guys dont like me or my post...so i feel this forum is not the place for me. i look forward to wing chun forums being created by Wing Chun purist. but until then i will have to go to other forums...I sincerely hope you find what you're looking for in an online community. If not here, then somewhere else. Seriously.

[elder999]

I have no idea what the hell a kwan dao is. Is that a style of kung fu?.

It's a BFK (Big ***** Knife :lol: )

Not really a part of wing chun, either-since it's a northern shaolin weapon...:lfao:

[Yoshiyahu]

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:eDMbjE7FX9FzqM:http://www.ironmountainkungfu.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/kwandao.127165341_std.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ironmountainkungfu.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/kwandao.127165341_std.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ironmountainkungfu.com/weapons&usg=__FTNbRVjNI2Iq0WAxh_Bhp9qzr4M=&h=480&w=640&sz=38&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=eDMbjE7FX9FzqM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkwan%2Bdao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3D N)http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:1BEsde9TGWsPXM:http://www.wle.com/media/W063-C.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wle.com/media/W063-C.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wle.com/products/W063-C.html&usg=__JJxcvAusqsXdotEsWWygJXWK7fA=&h=550&w=264&sz=20&hl=en&start=11&um=1&tbnid=1BEsde9TGWsPXM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=64&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkwan%2Bdao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3D N)

here above is a kwan dao.


http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:yFXxaviI7_IvRM:http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/HW1012Close-dadao.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/HW1012Close-dadao.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/swords-hanwei-paul-chen-dao.html&usg=__h9QCdIQKnSBntF3Um4r23xcfecs=&h=600&w=406&sz=55&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=yFXxaviI7_IvRM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dda%2Bdao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den)http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:kWg26WWLAiLBKM:http://www.learn-chinese-martial-arts.com/images/dadao-sword.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.learn-chinese-martial-arts.com/images/dadao-sword.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php%3FCat%3D0%26Number%3D16008497%26an%3D 0%26page%3D0&usg=__QCz3W1y4oyS0sEb1975kGHWnyFk=&h=296&w=288&sz=10&hl=en&start=9&um=1&tbnid=kWg26WWLAiLBKM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dda%2Bdao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den)http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:r5USaxVMbvrHSM:http://ghosthand.org/DSCN0244DaDao.JPG (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ghosthand.org/DSCN0244DaDao.JPG&imgrefurl=http://ghosthand.org/AboutTheInstructors.html&usg=__WYX1khn2eaQrfbvifrsmARuY-dI=&h=1536&w=2048&sz=728&hl=en&start=6&um=1&tbnid=r5USaxVMbvrHSM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dda%2Bdao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den)http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:0QJqryxa7eJ7FM:http://www.superiormartialarts.com/images12/1012.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.superiormartialarts.com/images12/1012.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.superiormartialarts.com/cgi-bin/uniform/perlshop.cgi%3FACTION%3DENTER%26thispage%3Dbroadsw ord2.html%26ORDER_ID%3D!ORDERID!%26affiliate%3D889&usg=__yxNlxf-YjwCOM3q6W9ifX_NUFeE=&h=550&w=280&sz=12&hl=en&start=16&um=1&tbnid=0QJqryxa7eJ7FM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=68&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dda%2Bdao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den)

above is da dao


i think these weapons would greatly with Wing Chun...


Makes a great weapon for the house incase of intruders.

chase them off the front yard.



I have no idea what the hell a kwan dao is. Is that a style of kung fu?I sincerely hope you find what you're looking for in an online community. If not here, then somewhere else. Seriously.

[Tez3]

Yoshi, do you actually train? I ask this because the forum has loads of your threads entitled "How do you train against...." and asking how you do this technique and that technique. Also you've had the ground v standup thread as well. Many of your posts have been irate because other posters haven't answered the way you thought they should or haven't provided the information you wanted.
The information available on MT is amazing but annoying the hell out of other posters may not be the best way to access that information! :)

[JadecloudAlchemist]

If someone is coming at you with a long range weapon closing the gap example clinching would most likely make the Kwan do useless in a grappling situation and most likely the person using the Kwan do would be at a disadvantage grappling with it. However the person using the Kwan do would be at the greatest advantage at long range because that is what the weapon is designed for.

So yes BJJ and grappling would be useful against a Kwando at close range.

[dungeonworks]

Glock. :rolleyes: :lfao:



Okay, buh-bye, and take yer little red wagon with you, m'kay? :lfao:

That was pretty funny....but would not a Springfield XD, say the one with the 6" barrell in .40 cal. work as well? :shooter::lfao:

[dungeonworks]

Thank you very much...with that i take it you guys feel the kwan dao has no defense against it even with another weapon...great. i am glad to hear that...i hope mostly other Wing Chunners and BJJ people think as you do. I will invest in a Kwan Dao as well with combat steel. So if i decide to attack people who think like you...there is no defense...thank you for your input...

As for trolling...i may not be on here much longer...i may be banned....many of you guys dont like me or my post...so i feel this forum is not the place for me. i look forward to wing chun forums being created by Wing Chun purist. but until then i will have to go to other forums...

my trolling is me coming truthfully with my thoughts and experiences.

you guys truly anger me.

No, don't take it that nobody has a defense against it....take it as nobody knows what the hell a kwan dao is. Now that you posted a picture, I have seen these before in them wire-fu kung fu movies...Hidden Dragon, Crouching Tiger or whatever. Nobody can take that serious. Nobody carries those, and if they did, they'd be violating several laws in the process....heck, you couldn't even conceal it! LOL

So no, nobody I know of trains for or against this. Nobody I know even wants to....and how does a slashing weapon work along Wing Chun principles??? I could see if it were stabbing/piercing in natuture, but that behemoth is clearly a slashing weapon.

[dungeonworks]

I go away for three days and a thread explodes… Guys, what is going on?
No art has the answer to everything
Yoshi – what an insanely stupid question about the sword. What if I came at you with a tank? (that’s rhetorical Yoshi, don’t spend the whole week coming up with an answer)
Stevebjj – don’t let people get to you. BJJ is a fantastic art, trained by humble guys
BJJ works, simple as that.
It is a great companion to wing chun. When you train it in a gym etc, of course you are going to be ‘rolling around on the floor’. But they also train in realism (no gi training etc)
But like everything, you take what works for you from an art. I’ll never be a black belt in BJJ or compete in tournaments, but I train enough of it so that if I am taking to the floor suddenly, I can get out of the situation or get into a better position to use my strikes.
Let’s all take a deep breath and relax. Chunners – go and practice some SLT…

Haven't you noticed he does this to all threads started by others, especially if BJJ or wrestling are involved? He does get a little nasty when his threads are off-tracked though.

[bs10927]

STEVE!!!!!!!!! EVERYONE!!! Please!!
:feedtroll

Just let it go and die dudes and dudettes.


but...but...LOL....man, i'm just gonna huen sau out of this then palm strike it!!:D

[Yoshiyahu]

I am sorry you hate my threads and post. Many of you are not like minded...so my ideas and thoughts will not make you happy. I am fine with that. I am longer trying to kiss arse and act fake. But I am simply being me.

As for my questions these may things I have thought of or experience. Anyway If you don't like my question why do you read them an why you respond.

If you feel there is defense against Kwan Dao that is on you. One simple thing would be to learn the Kwan Dao and also have one for yourself. But this is a mere opinion. But I have been thinking about what weapons I might to add. I think Kwan Dao and Da Dao it is. So from you guys dont believe its defendable. That means It is good invest for me.

Dungeon works doesn't the short swords slash...What does Bart Cham Dao mean?


also what about this?

BJJ vs Wing Chun (joke joke!)

This is the thread...a joke joke joke..



Yoshi, do you actually train? I ask this because the forum has loads of your threads entitled "How do you train against...." and asking how you do this technique and that technique. Also you've had the ground v standup thread as well. Many of your posts have been irate because other posters haven't answered the way you thought they should or haven't provided the information you wanted.
The information available on MT is amazing but annoying the hell out of other posters may not be the best way to access that information! :)

[Steve]

It's a BFK (Big ***** Knife :lol: )

Not really a part of wing chun, either-since it's a northern shaolin weapon...:lfao:Is that a Kwan Dao in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? :)

[Yoshiyahu]

The main who could fit a kwan dao in his pocket is way to big to be fighting. Not even the Incredible Hulk can take him.
I am not sure if bullets would work on that fellow either. You better try a scud missle.



Is that a Kwan Dao in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? :)

[KamonGuy2]

Thank you very much...with that i take it you guys feel the kwan dao has no defense against it even with another weapon...great. i am glad to hear that...i hope mostly other Wing Chunners and BJJ people think as you do. I will invest in a Kwan Dao as well with combat steel. So if i decide to attack people who think like you...there is no defense...thank you for your input...

As for trolling...i may not be on here much longer...i may be banned....many of you guys dont like me or my post...so i feel this forum is not the place for me. i look forward to wing chun forums being created by Wing Chun purist. but until then i will have to go to other forums...

my trolling is me coming truthfully with my thoughts and experiences.

you guys truly anger me.

You are a valued member....
...of the troll community...

Trouble is Yoshi, you come up with idiotic questions (I bet it was you who started the 'Bruce Lee vs Mohammed Lee' debate in the first place) and then get offended by people who poke fun

If people insult your art, your style, your training, or you for no good reason, then yeah sure get angry.

But if you ask a stupid question you are going to get stupid answers

Carrying a knife or weapon down the street is likely to get you very hurt (either by the police or people who have bigger weapons)
If someone comes at me with a broadsword or huge weapon, I am going to go in hard and fast and get them before they get me. I am not going to worry about defence or a particular move

You remind me of an instructor who I fell out with not so long back. He was teaching kids how to defend against rubber knives. The defensive moves were so poor that the kids were getting caught but went away thinking they were heroes

[skinters]

If someone comes at me with a broadsword or huge weapon, I am going to go in hard and fast and get them before they get me. I am not going to worry about defence or a particular move



sorry m8 i cant ignore this one,you going to go in hard and fast with any sort of attack with a blade? this has been gone over so many times,and the consensus suggests that realisticly you lose against a knife,and all them knife self defence classes are imo incredibly dangerous and misleading.

http://rivrdog.typepad.com/paratus/2006/03/why_you_keep_sh.html take a look at this if you need more convincing.


sounds like you had a flush of blood there :wink2:

[dungeonworks]

...Dungeon works doesn't the short swords slash...What does Bart Cham Dao mean? ...


Good point, I didn't think of that. I'm nowhere near learning the Butterfly Knives let alone how they are used yet. Bart Cham Do....isn't that the Chinese term for Butterfly Swords?

[AceHBK]

Where do ya'll live that you train for someone attacking you with Butterfly swords/ broadswords, etc!?!?!? lol.

Whatever happened to running?????
There is no shame in running from a person with a big a$$ weapon like those mentioned.
I mean really now...

Come on....

[mook jong man]

Good point, I didn't think of that. I'm nowhere near learning the Butterfly Knives let alone how they are used yet. Bart Cham Do....isn't that the Chinese term for Butterfly Swords?

Yes you are correct , it roughly translates to 'Eight Chopping Knives'.

[skinters]

Where do ya'll live that you train for someone attacking you with Butterfly swords/ broadswords, etc!?!?!? lol.

Whatever happened to running?????
There is no shame in running from a person with a big a$$ weapon like those mentioned.
I mean really now...

Come on....

i agree.

but learning how to use them in a traditional way as part of your art,is worth striving for.

i feel that some here are thinking of their application in real life situations,ie whats the best defence against a butterfly sword attack.

jeezuz the entertainment value is worth its weight in gold .

[bs10927]

Where do ya'll live that you train for someone attacking you with Butterfly swords/ broadswords, etc!?!?!? lol.

Whatever happened to running?????
There is no shame in running from a person with a big a$$ weapon like those mentioned.
I mean really now...

Come on....

you mean i can't catch the sword between the palms of my hands? i call that the prayer sau. the i shift 45 degrees to the right and pak it out of the way. lol:D

[Steve]

How would a WC master defend against an attack by an 11th level paladin wielding a +5 Holy Defender?

http://mezqual.home.texas.net/images/c_paladin.jpg

[bs10927]

How would a WC master defend against an attack by an 11th level paladin wielding a +5 Holy Defender?

http://mezqual.home.texas.net/images/c_paladin.jpg

LOL. man, that s**t is funny. like that pic.

define Defend. thoughts anyone?
would you use close range, long range, gun range combat?
:)

[skinters]

he dont look that tough to me ,i mean hes using his sword as a crutch,seeing as he only got one leg

[Yoshiyahu]

Check it out on wikipedia...Type in Bart Cham Dao. It means something other than Butterfly swords...We call it that here in America. But thats not its term. Also another common english word would short swords. But the translation of Bart Cham Dao is niether of those...The definition of name reveal why I brought it up.



Good point, I didn't think of that. I'm nowhere near learning the Butterfly Knives let alone how they are used yet. Bart Cham Do....isn't that the Chinese term for Butterfly Swords?

[Yoshiyahu]

I would possibly use a Kwan Dao knife against this weapon. An stick to his sword and chop down his center line if possible. If I was strong enough I would try to invent a style using two Da Dao knives like short swords. But this is my mere opinion.



How would a WC master defend against an attack by an 11th level paladin wielding a +5 Holy Defender?

http://mezqual.home.texas.net/images/c_paladin.jpg

[Steve]

I would possibly use a Kwan Dao knife against this weapon. An stick to his sword and chop down his center line if possible. If I was strong enough I would try to invent a style using two Da Dao knives like short swords. But this is my mere opinion.
Well, that might work, unless he smites you and then rebukes you.

[skinters]

yosh

you cant possibly be serious about dealing with this guy.i aint got your back on this one .

[elder999]

How would a WC master defend against an attack by an 11th level paladin wielding a +5 Holy Defender?

http://mezqual.home.texas.net/images/c_paladin.jpg

Glock! :lfao::lfao: :lfao:

[bs10927]

yosh

you cant possibly be serious about dealing with this guy.i aint got your back on this one .


yup. the dudes wearing armor.

[elder999]

yup. the dudes wearing armor.


Good point.

Glock!-10mm AP.:wuguns::lfao::lfao: :lfao:

[Yoshiyahu]

What do you mean?


Please explain to me what you mean?

What guy?

How am dealing with him besides humor recently.


Please explain.


yosh

you cant possibly be serious about dealing with this guy.i aint got your back on this one .

[mook jong man]

How would a WC master defend against an attack by an 11th level paladin wielding a +5 Holy Defender?

http://mezqual.home.texas.net/images/c_paladin.jpg

Lok Dim Boon straight to the throat , bloke hasn't got a helmet on.

[Yoshiyahu]

His sword will cut your pole down to size before you can puncture his throat. I thought about that one Mook but I realize the long pole is wooden.





Lok Dim Boon straight to the throat , bloke hasn't got a helmet on.

[mook jong man]

His sword will cut your pole down to size before you can puncture his throat. I thought about that one Mook but I realize the long pole is wooden.

No worrys , you just grab the two pieces of the pole that have been cut in half and use them as two big fat kali sticks then start drumming on the dudes head like Lars Ulrich from Metallica lol.

[Tez3]

Very nasty having your pole cut down.

[Yoshiyahu]

ha ha i just got that joke...sick sense of humor...lol...



Very nasty having your pole cut down.

[mook jong man]

Very nasty having your pole cut down.

Sure is , just ask John Wayne Bobbit . :eye-popping:

[skinters]

What do you mean?


Please explain to me what you mean?

What guy?

How am dealing with him besides humor recently.


Please explain.

i talking about the holy defender with the questionable hairdo,the same guy you was going to and i quote use a Kwan Dao knife against this weapon. An stick to his sword and chop down his center line if possible. If I was strong enough I would try to invent a style using two Da Dao knives like short swords.

[skinters]

Sure is , just ask John Wayne Bobbit . :eye-popping:

did that guy have his pole rebuilt ,like a bionic knob ?

[bs10927]

What do you mean?


Please explain to me what you mean?

What guy?

How am dealing with him besides humor recently.


Please explain.

um...the dude in the big*ss picture with armor and sword.

[Steve]

um...the dude in the big*ss picture with armor and sword.
Ahem... he's an 11th level Paladin... and that sword is a +5 Holy Defender. Dude. This is a serious discussion about self defense. Let's try to be specific. :D

[skinters]

my paladin can beat the crap outta your offering anyday

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c73/OneWinged4ngel/paladin.gif

[elder999]

Ahem... he's an 11th level Paladin... and that sword is a +5 Holy Defender. Dude. This is a serious discussion about self defense. Let's try to be specific. :D


I was specific: :wuguns:

[Yoshiyahu]

Skinters we can take Mr.Crusader with the Canoe like sword. I will use my Steel Dragon Pole and you use the double Da Dao Swords. You low and I attack high aiming for his adams apple with my steel Luk Boon Gwan


i talking about the holy defender with the questionable hairdo,the same guy you was going to and i quote use a Kwan Dao knife against this weapon. An stick to his sword and chop down his center line if possible. If I was strong enough I would try to invent a style using two Da Dao knives like short swords.


Pictures of the Da Dao

http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:yFXxaviI7_IvRM:http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/HW1012Close-dadao.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/HW1012Close-dadao.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/swords-hanwei-paul-chen-dao.html&usg=__h9QCdIQKnSBntF3Um4r23xcfecs=&h=600&w=406&sz=55&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=yFXxaviI7_IvRM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDA%2BDao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1 T4ADBS_enUS281US289%26sa%3DN)http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:_bvIn_GInARZqM:http://www.derech.net/img/swords/chineseswords/sword_07.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.derech.net/img/swords/chineseswords/sword_07.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.derech.net/taichi_sword_10.htm&usg=__H5GWZTkpmAzi70fxhvwz15ykElU=&h=525&w=700&sz=130&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=_bvIn_GInARZqM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDA%2BDao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1 T4ADBS_enUS281US289%26sa%3DN)http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:kWg26WWLAiLBKM:http://www.learn-chinese-martial-arts.com/images/dadao-sword.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.learn-chinese-martial-arts.com/images/dadao-sword.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.learn-chinese-martial-arts.com/martial-arts-swords.html&usg=__7ZevMb2hkHUgNm8qFgmJl33hC6g=&h=296&w=288&sz=10&hl=en&start=8&um=1&tbnid=kWg26WWLAiLBKM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDA%2BDao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1 T4ADBS_enUS281US289%26sa%3DN)

Steel Luk Dim Boon Gwun

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:F_lcHhh_N-ZlfM:http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/Leung_tin.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/Leung_tin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://kungfu300training.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html&usg=__700laOzJp7VXrfcebRZjr8oqmaw=&h=395&w=250&sz=12&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=F_lcHhh_N-ZlfM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=78&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSteel%2BLuk%2BDim%2BBoon%2BGuan%26um% 3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBS_enUS281US289%26sa%3D X)

[elder999]

Skinters we can take Mr.Crusader with the Canoe like sword. I will use my Steel Dragon Pole and you use the double Da Dao Swords. You low and I attack high aiming for his adams apple with my steel Luk Boon Gwan

And I'll take you al-and the Paladin-with my Glock.:wuguns: :lfao:

[Yoshiyahu]

What does AL mean?



And I'll take you al-and the Paladin-with my Glock.:wuguns: :lfao:

[elder999]

What does AL mean?

That's was supposed to be "all"

[bs10927]

Check it out on wikipedia...Type in Bart Cham Dao. It means something other than Butterfly swords...We call it that here in America. But thats not its term. Also another common english word would short swords. But the translation of Bart Cham Dao is niether of those...The definition of name reveal why I brought it up.

did anybody look up the definition of the Eight cut Broadsword?

[skinters]

all i can say is this thread got a bit heated,but its turned out a good laugh just what was needed.

how about using this as somewhere we can poke fun at each other haha

[bs10927]

all i can say is this thread got a bit heated,but its turned out a good laugh just what was needed.

how about using this as somewhere we can poke fun at each other haha

alright....does anybody have a Kwan dao? lol

[skinters]

alright....does anybody have a Kwan dao? lol

you better go and see yosh,he tooled up to the neck.

[Xue Sheng]

alright....does anybody have a Kwan dao? lol

Does it count if I use to train with one (http://www.wle.com/media/W061-T.jpg) :D

[bs10927]

Does it count if I use to train with one (http://www.wle.com/media/W061-T.jpg) :D

haha....hmmm....how exactly can we defend against that? i may run into that on the subway..

[Yoshiyahu]

I plan on invested in a combat steel one...It may take me two years to get it. But in the meantime I plan on learning the form using a broom. So when I do get a kwan dao I am ready to go with that. No defense against my weapon yes...



alright....does anybody have a Kwan dao? lol

[mook jong man]

Skinters we can take Mr.Crusader with the Canoe like sword. I will use my Steel Dragon Pole and you use the double Da Dao Swords. You low and I attack high aiming for his adams apple with my steel Luk Boon Gwan




Pictures of the Da Dao

http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:yFXxaviI7_IvRM:http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/HW1012Close-dadao.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/HW1012Close-dadao.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/swords-hanwei-paul-chen-dao.html&usg=__h9QCdIQKnSBntF3Um4r23xcfecs=&h=600&w=406&sz=55&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=yFXxaviI7_IvRM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDA%2BDao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1 T4ADBS_enUS281US289%26sa%3DN)http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:_bvIn_GInARZqM:http://www.derech.net/img/swords/chineseswords/sword_07.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.derech.net/img/swords/chineseswords/sword_07.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.derech.net/taichi_sword_10.htm&usg=__H5GWZTkpmAzi70fxhvwz15ykElU=&h=525&w=700&sz=130&hl=en&start=3&um=1&tbnid=_bvIn_GInARZqM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDA%2BDao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1 T4ADBS_enUS281US289%26sa%3DN)http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:kWg26WWLAiLBKM:http://www.learn-chinese-martial-arts.com/images/dadao-sword.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.learn-chinese-martial-arts.com/images/dadao-sword.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.learn-chinese-martial-arts.com/martial-arts-swords.html&usg=__7ZevMb2hkHUgNm8qFgmJl33hC6g=&h=296&w=288&sz=10&hl=en&start=8&um=1&tbnid=kWg26WWLAiLBKM:&tbnh=116&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDA%2BDao%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1 T4ADBS_enUS281US289%26sa%3DN)

Steel Luk Dim Boon Gwun

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:F_lcHhh_N-ZlfM:http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/Leung_tin.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/Leung_tin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://kungfu300training.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html&usg=__700laOzJp7VXrfcebRZjr8oqmaw=&h=395&w=250&sz=12&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=F_lcHhh_N-ZlfM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=78&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSteel%2BLuk%2BDim%2BBoon%2BGuan%26um% 3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBS_enUS281US289%26sa%3D X)

Is that steel long pole for real ?
Jeez man you wouldn't want to be practicing outdoors with that in a thunderstorm , it would turn you into one big arse lightning conductor.
Either that or once you finished training it can also be hooked up to your tv to double as a nifty satelite tv antenna.

[Yoshiyahu]

Well I wouldn't use that weapon in thunderstorm...but if it was thunder storm then the guy with big sword would also get struck possibly.



Is that steel long pole for real ?
Jeez man you wouldn't want to be practicing outdoors with that in a thunderstorm , it would turn you into one big arse lightning conductor.
Either that or once you finished training it can also be hooked up to your tv to double as a nifty satelite tv antenna.

[jarrod]

alright....does anybody have a Kwan dao? lol

my kickboxing coach has one & knows a couple forms for it. it's pretty awesome, to be honest. i'm not a kung fu guy at all but i've toyed with the idea of getting one & learning a form for it. i mean, it's a giant chopping blade at the end of a big stick. the possibilities in the event of a zombie invasion are awesome.

jf

[Yoshiyahu]

Jarrod that sounds great...How do you think you would fair with a Kwan Dao against a knife fighter???



my kickboxing coach has one & knows a couple forms for it. it's pretty awesome, to be honest. i'm not a kung fu guy at all but i've toyed with the idea of getting one & learning a form for it. i mean, it's a giant chopping blade at the end of a big stick. the possibilities in the event of a zombie invasion are awesome.

jf

[jarrod]

well yoshi, i think just as with all fighting it's about controlling the range; putting yourself in your most advantageous range, & putting your opponent in his least advantageous range. if i could manage that i guess i could do pretty well.

jf

[Yoshiyahu]

Sounds like a great plan. You are so correct.



well yoshi, i think just as with all fighting it's about controlling the range; putting yourself in your most advantageous range, & putting your opponent in his least advantageous range. if i could manage that i guess i could do pretty well.

jf