Has there ever been showdowns between the tracey system & epk system ?

[suicide]

im sure both systems have very great disciplined martial artist.

[Flying Crane]

are you of the belief that they are somehow at odds with each other?

[JadeDragon3]

Everyone that I have met with the Al Tracy system has been very nice. Al Tracy's main headquarters is located right here in my home town of Lexington, Kentucky. And no I don't practice Tracy Kenpo.

[suicide]

naw crane just wondering , you know human nature tends to be that way sometimes its like i always hear kenpo guys saying there better than taekwon do guys and muay thai guys saying there better than kickboxing guys thats all , just wondering if they some kind of friendly competition ever ... along the line of that.

[Touch Of Death]

As reason for a rivalry in tournament, of course! Why not?
Sean

[tellner]

What exactly do you mean by "showdowns"?

Do you mean old-style dojo-busting?
The Denver Dojo Wars revisited?
Trash-talking?
An excuse for a big tournament?

If you mean 1 or 2 let's hope not. The martial arts already have a bad enough reputation. That sort of thing leads to people being stupid and innocents getting very seriously dead.

#3? It already happens too much in the MA world.

#4? Sounds good to me! Healthy rivalry between clubs means people will train harder for the tournament and have more fun in their bouts. And it gives everyone an excuse to get together for a beer afterwards, pat each other on the back and say "Good job! Just wait 'til next year!"

[suicide]

yeah thats what i meant - like if they had competed against each other before in a tournament or underground - theres always gonna be rivalrys i know that - from looking around here pretty much i see that everyone has alot of respect for one another and ones art ... cool

[Empty Hands]

I'd be more impressed with such a showdown if more than one fighter in a hundred fought like the actual techniques. Anyway, individual variation and conditioning as a fighter will make more difference than any differences in the systems in your average confrontation. Such posturing over which stylist "wins" is meaningless.

[KenpoDave]

I once had an EPAK black belt visit my school. We went out on the mat and began to exchange techniques. Basically, he would attack, I would defend. Then he would show me the closest "Parker version" of whatever technique I had just done. Then we would talk about it and try each other's version. Then we would switch.

After several hours, we were bruised, sweating, smiling, and hungry. That's the closest thing to a showdown I've ever been involved in.

[suicide]

how about back in the day when the traceys went off and started doing there thing was there ever a time when they felt like let me show my teacher what my students look like ?

[Spartan]

Techniques and philosophies aside, are there any serious contrasts between the two different types of practitioners?

[JadeDragon3]

Techniques and philosophies aside, are there any serious contrasts between the two different types of practitioners?

Philosophy & technique......thats quite a bit of difference right there wouldn't you say?

[Blindside]

Philosophy & technique......thats quite a bit of difference right there wouldn't you say?

I wouldn't say philosophy, both systems feature explicit self-defense oriented vital area striking in a rapid action. Its hard to get too far apart when you share at least 50% of your motion templates and all of your core forms (Short 1 through Long 5).

The difference is that AK teaching methodology is a more conceptual approach where the Tracy's use a repitition approach.

I have worked with several AK instructors (my background is mostly Tracy) and we really didn't have any conflicts in technique.

Lamont

[JadeDragon3]

I'm not really that familiar with Kenpo even though I believe Al Tracy's headquarters is right here in my home town of Lexington, Kentucky. I have met one of his senior instructors before, a guy named Steve Finn I think was his name. I know Finn was his last name, I might be wrong on the first name. Ever here of him?

[suicide]

basically aside from the forms ' what tracey dont got in theres ak got it and vice versa

[Blindside]

I'm not really that familiar with Kenpo even though I believe Al Tracy's headquarters is right here in my home town of Lexington, Kentucky. I have met one of his senior instructors before, a guy named Steve Finn I think was his name. I know Finn was his last name, I might be wrong on the first name. Ever here of him?

Unless I'm completely mistaken, at one point he was KenpoDave's instructor.

[LuckyKBoxer]

I once had an EPAK black belt visit my school. We went out on the mat and began to exchange techniques. Basically, he would attack, I would defend. Then he would show me the closest "Parker version" of whatever technique I had just done. Then we would talk about it and try each other's version. Then we would switch.

After several hours, we were bruised, sweating, smiling, and hungry. That's the closest thing to a showdown I've ever been involved in.

AHHH now thats a great thing right there. There is nothing better then meeting new martial artists, getting on the mat, putting some spirited friendly competition, theory testing, sharing out there, and walking away with a genuine respect for the other individual.
I like it!

[Spartan]

I guess what I was trying to ask was, is there anything that, if you saw one of these types of kenpo stylists sparring or fighting, you'd be able to say "Ah, that guy's a Tracy's guy" or "That one's an EPAK guy." See what I'm getting at?

[girlbug2]

I think somebody with a reasonably experienced eye should be able to tell the difference. Or, if one was trained in one style and watched somebody from the other style doing techniques, it would look "off". I trained in EPAK up to green belt and even in EPAK there are slight variations between one school and the next, we had some students come in from other EPAK schools from time to time and there were small differences in their techniques that became obvious to anybody familiar with them.

[Blindside]

I guess what I was trying to ask was, is there anything that, if you saw one of these types of kenpo stylists sparring or fighting, you'd be able to say "Ah, that guy's a Tracy's guy" or "That one's an EPAK guy." See what I'm getting at?

No, I don't think you would be able to look at someone, well someone good, sparring and say "oh that guy is X." Good fighters are good fighters, and tend to have similar efficiency to their movement, also individual variation in fighting styles will swamp the differences between inter-school or inter-AK/Tracy stylistic differences.

[Spartan]

Thanks for the feedback on that girlbug2 & Blindside.

[KenpoDave]

No, I don't think you would be able to look at someone, well someone good, sparring and say "oh that guy is X." Good fighters are good fighters, and tend to have similar efficiency to their movement, also individual variation in fighting styles will swamp the differences between inter-school or inter-AK/Tracy stylistic differences.

Yes, Steve Finn is my instructor.

As far as visible differences during technique practice, I can tell the difference based on some affectations present in American Kenpo such as large cover out movements. I think that during free-sparring or actual combat, probably not.

[suicide]

both systems got techniques i love :ultracool

[hongkongfooey]

Why would the Parker guys want to fight with the Tracy's guys, when the Parker guys, have more than enough desire to fight amongst themselves.

[KenpoDave]

Why would the Parker guys want to fight with the Tracy's guys, when the Parker guys, have more than enough desire to fight amongst themselves.

Ouch...

[suicide]

Ouch...


double ouch :shooter:

[Henry D. Childers]

Started in Martial Arts in 1964, in the early 1970's I started with Tracy's in Louisville Ky. Had the pleasure of meeting and chatting with Ed Parker in 1978 or 79 been along time . Point is He new my background and we had no problem at all. He was a gentleman and of course so was I. We all come from similar roots. The Kenpo Family is large and from what I've seen is very good and respectful of each other.
Regards Henry

[Omar B]

Showdowns! LOL.

I remember when I was a kid of about 12 or 13 when all the kids in the area did karate and on Saturdays we used to get together after arriving home from class all keyed up from sparring and beat the crap out of each other. After a while you learn how dumb an idea that is and how many bumps and bruises you get for being stupid.

Then it became a nice exchange of ideas and techniques. That's what we should be focusing on, not who or what's better, but what makes us all better.

[KENPOJOE]

I once had an EPAK black belt visit my school. We went out on the mat and began to exchange techniques. Basically, he would attack, I would defend. Then he would show me the closest "Parker version" of whatever technique I had just done. Then we would talk about it and try each other's version. Then we would switch.

After several hours, we were bruised, sweating, smiling, and hungry. That's the closest thing to a showdown I've ever been involved in.
Hi folks!
Dear Dave,
I had a similar experience with John Deluca at my studio in Massachusetts years ago and it was a wonderful experience! That and my interviewing Mr. Tracy years ago for my TV show opened many doors for me with the tracys. It led to my attending the gathering of the eagles [where we met!] and being inducted into the kenpo hall of fame & the Yudanshakai [Black Belt Society]. I've also been honored to teach at the event and i'm presently researching the tracy system as well. Mr. Tracy always mentions that the foundation for tracy kenpo is Mr. Parker's system [circa 1950s/60's]and both styles have merit.
Thanks to "suicide" [you play the TNA wrestling video game?], I now have ELO's "Showdown" running through my head like a rampant earworm!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[Doc]

No, I don't think you would be able to look at someone, well someone good, sparring and say "oh that guy is X." Good fighters are good fighters, and tend to have similar efficiency to their movement, also individual variation in fighting styles will swamp the differences between inter-school or inter-AK/Tracy stylistic differences.

Depends upon what you call, "fighting." Most mean sparring which is governed by a set of rules that determine "what" participants may do and be scored for, and as a byproduct, "what" they look like. In fighting, there are distinct differences to most.

[Danjo]

Depends upon what you call, "fighting." Most mean sparring which is governed by a set of rules that determine "what" participants may do and be scored for, and as a byproduct, "what" they look like. In fighting, there are distinct differences to most.

Yep. Most sparring is either "kickboxing" or "Karate-tag" and it all starts to look the same after a while. Actual fights are going to look a lot different depending on how you've trained.

[searcher]

Yep. Most sparring is either "kickboxing" or "Karate-tag" and it all starts to look the same after a while. Actual fights are going to look a lot different depending on how you've trained.


Amen to that brother!!!! I am trying like crazy to bring back some type of "nastiness" to the sparring in my region, beginning with my own school. I have grown tired of to many weaklings muddying up the MA. Time for a change.

[Spartan]

Fascinating! I had absolutely no idea that there could be that much of a gap between hard-core sparring and real fighting. Maybe in a real fight is where a particular art/ style comes alive?

[Danjo]

Fascinating! I had absolutely no idea that there could be that much of a gap between hard-core sparring and real fighting. Maybe in a real fight is where a particular art/ style comes alive?

Yep.

[patfromlogan]

Yep. Most sparring is either "kickboxing" or "Karate-tag" and it all starts to look the same after a while. Actual fights are going to look a lot different depending on how you've trained.

Point tag kukai aside, good karate or ke?po to me means that in self-defense (I can't imagine "fighting") it gets kinda quiet and slow while I'm moving my body my brain and I watch and make appropriate comments on what I'm doing, I mean the conscious brain watches the action like it's a movie and realizes that it isn't running the show. The show for me, in the couple of times it seemed to matter, was over in second or two, with the other guy down. It's more of a matter of limiting the damage and violence.

Once in a bar a redneck wanted to fight and I said that if we were fighting I'd already have broken my glass and shoved in into his eyes. He looked confused so I offered to buy him a beer and talk about fighting.

[Hudson69]

Denver Dojo wars? Tell me more, never heard of this.

[gardawamtu1]

Point tag kukai aside, good karate or ke?po to me means that in self-defense (I can't imagine "fighting") it gets kinda quiet and slow while I'm moving my body my brain and I watch and make appropriate comments on what I'm doing, I mean the conscious brain watches the action like it's a movie and realizes that it isn't running the show. The show for me, in the couple of times it seemed to matter, was over in second or two, with the other guy down. It's more of a matter of limiting the damage and violence.

Once in a bar a redneck wanted to fight and I said that if we were fighting I'd already have broken my glass and shoved in into his eyes. He looked confused so I offered to buy him a beer and talk about fighting.

As Bruce would say, "the art of fighting without fighting."

[dianhsuhe]

Yep.


2nd what Danjo said...

[seninoniwashi]

Amen to that brother!!!! I am trying like crazy to bring back some type of "nastiness" to the sparring in my region, beginning with my own school. I have grown tired of to many weaklings muddying up the MA. Time for a change.

Well, you could always hold a tournament and encourage people to spar naked… that’d be pretty nasty!
:uhohh:

[Danjo]

Well, you could always hold a tournament and encourage people to spar naked… that’d be pretty nasty!
:uhohh:

Well, that's a little too "Ancient Greece" for my taste. I mean, I know that Pancrase supposedly went from there to India and from India to China etc., but if that's "Old School" then I'll pass.

[Flying Crane]

Well, that's a little too "Ancient Greece" for my taste. I mena, I know that Pancrase supposedly went from there to India and from India to China etc., but if that's "Old School" then I'll pass.


not if it's co-ed...

[Gary Crawford]

Ya'll might find this interesting. When I started Kenpo(early 70's) in San Jose, I learned from a couple of Philipino brothers who learned from their Dad and ended up training with Al Tracy after coming to the states. At some point in time(before my walking in) they opened their own little independent school. When we went to tournaments,the Tracy schools absolutely dominated. They were awsome, but I must say they were the majority of the referees as well. That was a very LONG time ago,but I do remember a few matches getting quite ugly with everyone in the place getting mad. We were definatly out numbered,so we bowed out a couple of times to keep the peace. I know the trouble makers were only two or three people,but there are always a few of those no matter where and when.