My Dojo Is Becoming Infected

[Sensei Payne]

You know, someone else once made people of a certain faith wear a patch on there sleeve to indicate there faith...

Talk to your instructor.

The voice unspoken is the one that goes unheard

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, interesting way to Godwin the thread.... For the record, though, that's really not a good comparison in the least. On the one hand, you have a group (the dojo being discussed) which has changed it's focus, and altered it's patch accordingly, while introducing a more Christian ethic and flavour to the school. Then, your example, is a case of someone (heading a rather extreme group) singling out members of another ethnic group for prejudiced treatment (again, extreme).

In short, this situation is nothing like Nazi Germany. I'm concerned for anyone who would see it that way, honestly.

[Daniel Sullivan]

To those who are of a Christian persuasion, since Bible verses have been brought into the mix, I'd like to offer the following verses:

1 Corinthians 10:23-31:

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience.
29I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience?
30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God—
33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

This passage addresses the idea that Christians can eat with non believers and eat the food that is offered, even if it has been offered in sacrifice; its just food. But some Christians who are not as strong in their faith will judge this as sinful. Paul advises to, in their presence, refrain from doing such so as not to be a stumbling block to them.

The 'them' are the Christians who most often will seek out a Christian themed studio. Like the food in question, martial arts are physical skills. I am capable of learning them without converting to Buddhism, Shintoism, Muism, or any other 'ism' that I do not personally subscribe to. But not all Christians can attend a class with what they consider overt "eastern mysticism" involved.

My own feeling is, and this has Biblical support, that Christians are supposed to be in the world but not of the world. In the world means that we are not shielded from the things in the world, but we do not internalize these things or make them our own. I may participate in an Aikido class, but should the sensei have a moment of meditation as part of the class, even if he is theming it as something to do with a non-Christian religious practice, its just meditation. I can meditate on scripture or take some time for silent prayer. The rest of the class may meditate on whatever they feel like meditating on. And that is fine. If I'm in the class, I'm there to learn the skill that the sensei can impart and I will just accept that he is of a religion that is different from mine. Hopefully, I will conduct myself in a way that is praiseworthy, and should the subject of my faith come up, because I have conducted myself in a praiseworhty way, I will not have prejudiced others against it through bad behavior.

In that way, Christ is represented in a positive way before non-believers. As for any 'eastern mysticism' in the class, I won't channel any demons (or anything else) by accident.

Many of our Christian holy days coinside with what were non-Christian festivals. Aligning Christmas with the yuletide doesn't seem to have caused the celebration of Christmas to turn into a pagan ritual or Christans to turn into pagans. If anything, our own buying into rampant commercialism at Christmas time has done far more damage than any simultaneous non Christian religious practices could ever do.

Now, what I do find humorous is that Christians are expected to go to a dojo and if the beliefs are different from their own to just suck it up. But then some (not all by any means) non Christians will whine like the dickens if they are put in a position where they need to do the same.

Daniel

[Himura Kenshin]

Was Payne really referencing Nazi's? I for one didn't pick up on whatever it was he was talking about.

And Daniel, I'd give you a +1 but apparently it's too soon, which is a darn shame because I feel that it was quite intelligent and should be recognized as such.

[Daniel Sullivan]

Was Payne really referencing Nazi's? I for one didn't pick up on whatever it was he was talking about.
He was referring the Nazi practice of forcing the Jews to wear a star of David.

Either that, or he is refering to the swastika on the sleeve, though I suspect that he was referring to the above, as Nazis were not really forced against their will to will to wear swastikas.

Daniel

[Balrog]

To those who are of a Christian persuasion, since Bible verses have been brought into the mix, I'd like to offer the following verses:

1 Corinthians 10:23-31:

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience.
29I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience?
30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God—
33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

This passage addresses the idea that Christians can eat with non believers and eat the food that is offered, even if it has been offered in sacrifice; its just food. But some Christians who are not as strong in their faith will judge this as sinful. Paul advises to, in their presence, refrain from doing such so as not to be a stumbling block to them.
There's another point of view. Bringing Christianity into a school directly violates the teachings of Jesus. It puts the school owner on a par with the hypocrites as mentioned here:


Matt.6

[1] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
[2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
[4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
[5] And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

There it is. In no uncertain terms, no one should know what your religious beliefs are. Period.

[Sensei Payne]

My example was from Nazi Germany...but the atrocities they committed is not the point.

I believe that Martial Arts classes should remain secular...not because I'm not Christian, because I am...but its from a Politically correct, business stand point.

For example...

What if a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc. does join your school...and its aginst their beliefs to wear a cross. IMO to avoid singling any one person out Religion should be kept separate from Martial Arts classes.

Now please don't misunderstand me. If you run your class out of a church or have a church funded class, I completely respect that, and if your running a class and making a living doing it, more power to ya. but from a business owners stand point, I wouldn't want to turn away a good student, or potentially lose one due to my religious convictions.

[Chris Parker]

Your example was still diametrically opposed to the point of this thread, though.

When it comes to religious concepts in martial arts, or at least some aspect of a spiritual aspect, to me, there has to be one. Absolutely. And, so we all know, that's coming from a confirmed agnostic (hmm, does that make sense?).

In martial arts, especially the older ones, you are training to seriously injure or kill an opponent, another human being, and that comes with a realisation of the likelihood of your own possible death or serious injury, which naturally leads to thoughts of what happens after mortality is achieved, both for yourself and for those you cut down in their lives. This thinking on such things leads many martial artists over the centuries to a spiritual awakening in their lives, with many Samurai becoming monks later in life, and such individual accounts as Yagyu Munenori conversing with the Zen priest Takuan Soto, Musashi Miyamoto taking on the Buddhist teachings in later life (to the point where the Gorin no Sho is said to be only understood if you also know the Buddhist sutras), many martial artists who develop their understanding into a new expression of a martial art base them around particular shrines (such as Katori Shinto Ryu, and Kashima Shinryu, and more), and so on. It's natural that if you are concerned with killing, you are concerned with what that means for your enemies, as it will most likely mean the same thing for you.

With all this said, it does not necessarily mean that there should be a particular religious aspect. For instance, in the Gyokko Ryu Kamae aspects I mentioned earlier coming from very definate Shinto origins, you have no need to follow Shinto teachings for the kamae to work/make sense. But knowing where they come from is quite beneficial to understand them. It's what Daniel was talking about when he mentioned being "in the world, but not of the world". But what is needed is a spiritual morality, and religion is just one way of gaining that. Others are just instilling in people when to use or not use it.

Without it, you're just teaching people to be violent thugs.

[Carol]

Now please don't misunderstand me. If you run your class out of a church or have a church funded class, I completely respect that, and if your running a class and making a living doing it, more power to ya. but from a business owners stand point, I wouldn't want to turn away a good student, or potentially lose one due to my religious convictions.

Most folks don't...whether they have a profitable storefront school, or whether they are small club that meets in the instructor's garage.

MA is a blind item. You don't know what you are getting in to, yet you are expected to make significant investments of time, effort, and often money, to reach a long term goal. Words such as "loyalty", "respect", and "courtesy" are liberally passed around.

What I find to be rather insidious about this situation is that the instructor -- the person of power -- was bringing students along in a particular way, but then changed the rules midstream....knowing that the students were in for the long haul. People change, I understand that...but this person apparently did it with little warning and no transition plan.

Near me is a private law school in Massachusetts that is not accredited by the American Bar Association. This makes it more affordable than accredited law schools. The downside is that its graduates can only sit for the Mass. bar (and firms do not see them as valuable as grads from accredited schools).

So...what would happen if a student making their way through this school...and then midstream the school announces they are changing their curriculum? Its not like the student can simply transfer to another school. The student has some knowledge, but not enough to reach a point of matriculation.

This would spark outrage, and possibly even a state investigation. Yet for a martial arts school to do essentially the same thing, its considered OK? That, meh, students just need to suck it up and deal?

If an instructor wants to change direction, at least have the loyalty to one's students, not to mention the respect and courtesy, to work a succession plan so the students that don't want to go in that direction can continue on with their investment.

[Daniel Sullivan]

There's another point of view. Bringing Christianity into a school directly violates the teachings of Jesus. It puts the school owner on a par with the hypocrites as mentioned here:




[1] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
[2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
[4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
[5] And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

There it is. In no uncertain terms, no one should know what your religious beliefs are. Period.
Keeping your belief secret is not at all what that passage addresses. That was addressing using religious trappings in a public way to gain esteem for one's self. In other words, do your charitable giving without advertising it. Don't try to let everyone know how pious you are by praying loudly and repetitiously in public. When you fast, don't try to let everyone know how holy you are by walking around dressed in an uncharacteristic way and looking like you're dying of hunger.

Given that Jesus commanded his disciples to spread the good news, It is a definite misinterpretation of the passage to say that he mandated that nobody should know what your beliefs are. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that one should keep their faith secret, as not only does this passage not address that, the rest of the NT is themed around the spreading of the gospel. The only time that secrecy was ever brought up was when the apostles where hiding from the aurthorities.

Daniel

[Daniel Sullivan]

My example was from Nazi Germany...but the atrocities they committed is not the point.
For a man who referrences political correctness below, you sure are selective about it. It is very politically incorrect to compare things to Nazi Germany. If the comparison were valid, that would be one thing, but it isn't. Not even close.

The only reason that anyone compares people or practices to Nazi Germany is to create ill will towards them, marginalize them, or sidetrack a debate. That's why politicians do it; their opponent now has to waste his or her time explaining why they're not a Nazi and the one who first made the remark no longer has to win the debate by making a better case.


I believe that Martial Arts classes should remain secular...not because I'm not Christian, because I am...but its from a Politically correct, business stand point.

For example...

What if a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc. does join your school...and its aginst their beliefs to wear a cross. IMO to avoid singling any one person out Religion should be kept separate from Martial Arts classes.
Your arguement falls flat. Suppose it is agains someone's beliefs to have eastern spiritual symbols on their uniform? School patch has a yin/yang. Person of an Abrahamic faith says, 'I am not wearing that.' Sensei says, 'this is our organization's patch and all students' uniforms have it. Its just a patch.'

People are too hypersensitive. Is that same person going to not use the first aid kit because it has a big honkin red cross on it? Or turn away the red cross in a disaster? Or if they're in a Muslim country, tell the doctor 'no thanks' because he has a crescent moon on his jacket? I seriously doubt it.

Political correctness is not really a valid reason to say that all MA classes should be secular. The vast majority of them are anyway, so I don't know why people whine about the few that are. That is your preference. If you prefer a secular class, the world is awash in schools that offer them.


Now please don't misunderstand me. If you run your class out of a church or have a church funded class, I completely respect that, and if your running a class and making a living doing it, more power to ya. but from a business owners stand point, I wouldn't want to turn away a good student, or potentially lose one due to my religious convictions.
Obviously, you don't respect it: you just stated above that you "believe that Martial Arts classes should remain secular" and compared Christian themed MA schools to the Nazis. That is not a demonstration of respect.

As for the business standpoint, some businesses do very well by becoming highly specialized. Porsche doesn't make family cars, economy cars, pickup trucks, or station wagons. They make performance cars period. Even their one sedan looks like a 911 with an extra set of doors wedged in, costs a ton, and drives like a race car. Porsche has effectively shut out 90% of the market. Ferrari has shut out even more. Their cars are more expensive, they don't even have a sedan or SUV, their cars get even lousier mileage, and you need to do gymnastics to get in and out of them.

Part of good business is knowing who your customer is and taking the necesary steps to reach that customer, bring them in, and keep them coming in. That is essentially what a religiouly themed MA school is doing, whether they know it or not. Some do it well, others do it poorly.

Daniel

[Himura Kenshin]

Yes, Balrog, you don't seem to understand the meaning of that passage. It's about hypocritical people appearing to be righteous to make themselves look good in the eyes of others. Believers are encouraged and in fact commanded to incorportate their beliefs into everything they do and speak openly about their beliefs.

Payne, I agree having a religious theme in a dojo could be a poor business model, but I think the majority of religious MA groups are more like private clubs and couldn't care less about the business aspect.

[Daniel Sullivan]

What I find to be rather insidious about this situation is that the instructor -- the person of power -- was bringing students along in a particular way, but then changed the rules midstream....knowing that the students were in for the long haul. People change, I understand that...but this person apparently did it with little warning and no transition plan.
I agree with you, though in this situation only tentatively, mainly because I suspect that we are not getting the entire picture, either from the OP or Lionsroar.

If an instructor wants to change direction, at least have the loyalty to one's students, not to mention the respect and courtesy, to work a succession plan so the students that don't want to go in that direction can continue on with their investment.
I agree. Also, I'd like to add that if the school changes direction, the school should waive any contracts (if any) to allow those that do not like the new direction to leave and find another school. If a school owner decides to make his school Christian and then tells those that don't like the direction that they have to fulfill their two year contract that still has a year to go, well, that aint exactly in line with those new found Christian values.

Daniel

[Lionsroar]

I agree with you, though in this situation only tentatively, mainly because I suspect that we are not getting the entire picture, either from the OP or Lionsroar.

I agree. Also, I'd like to add that if the school changes direction, the school should waive any contracts (if any) to allow those that do not like the new direction to leave and find another school. If a school owner decides to make his school Christian and then tells those that don't like the direction that they have to fulfill their two year contract that still has a year to go, well, that aint exactly in line with those new found Christian values.

Daniel

I have given you guys the entire picture as to what occured in this situation 2 or 3 times now on this thread. The problem is the OP never gave the entire picture. He came on here and tried to express his frustration with the situation. The truth is like I have said multiple times now, is that when the OP was accepted into training and began classes Sensei had already began making the changes. The transition period was over a course of probably a good year or so. The OP never had any real exposure to the Bujinkan system. And lets be honest here, anyone that trains in the Bujinkan system should know that at a 10 or 9th kyu what real exposure to the system have you had other than basic postures and sanshin no kata....

He like all students that come in to seek training are made well aware of the differences between our dojo and other "bujinkan" schools. Infact we even have it pointed out on our Dojo websites. Another point that he failed to make was that while training with us he was constantly seeking out training in other arts and schools. This may not be an issue to some but to us and members of the Bujinkan it is looked down on. Infact before he left he had already spent several months training in a "mixed martial arts" school here in town.

This shouldn't be a Chrisitan issue. Yes the instructors at our dojo are Christian as are a good portion of our students, but not all are, and non of those that aren't seem to have any issues. What this really boils down to is the fact that the OP was a nice kid but in the long run wasn't really fully committed to learning budo taijutsu but wanted to dable in multiple styles. It was obvious to the instructors the last few months he was with us his heart really wasn't in it especially since he was constantly missing classes and when he was training talked a lot about other arts he wanted to pursue.

He left by sending us an email stating like I've said before that he had financial issues and couldn't pay for training any longer and also that his new class schedule (high school classes) would prohibit him from making most classes for the next few semesters. He never once expressed any of his concerns about "patches" or "christian" themes to any student or teacher. Had he have, we certainly would have tried to come to an agreement.

We wished him the best, but in truth we knew that he had already been training at a local kagukenbo (spell?) school for sometime before leaving us.

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have given you guys the entire picture as to what occured in this situation 2 or 3 times now on this thread. The problem is the OP never gave the entire picture. He came on here and tried to express his frustration with the situation. The truth is like I have said multiple times now, is that when the OP was accepted into training and began classes Sensei had already began making the changes. The transition period was over a course of probably a good year or so.
With due respect, rarely is the full story ever really conveyed on a forum. Not due to intentional obscurement, but because it is the nature of things. You post your perspective, he posted his, and the sensei involved is not a part of this discussion. But that is neither here nor there. No real judgement can be made on an internet forum because it is an internet forum. None of us train with you, so everything from either you or he is second hand knowledge at best.

The rest of my post was meant in generalities, as this discussion has long since moved away from being about the OP's particular situation. Most of this thread has been about the place of religion in dojos and how it should be handled in general , as the OP ceased posting some time ago.


The OP never had any real exposure to the Bujinkan system. And lets be honest here, anyone that trains in the Bujinkan system should know that at a 10 or 9th kyu what real exposure to the system have you had other than basic postures and sanshin no kata....

He like all students that come in to seek training are made well aware of the differences between our dojo and other "bujinkan" schools. Infact we even have it pointed out on our Dojo websites.
Given his relatively low rank (green belt, if I recall), I would take that as a given.


Another point that he failed to make was that while training with us he was constantly seeking out training in other arts and schools. This may not be an issue to some but to us and members of the Bujinkan it is looked down on. Infact before he left he had already spent several months training in a "mixed martial arts" school here in town.
In my opinion, unless one is already established in an art and is looking to simply crosstrain, they should stick with one place and one system, so I can see why you might look down on it.


This shouldn't be a Chrisitan issue. Yes the instructors at our dojo are Christian as are a good portion of our students, but not all are, and non of those that aren't seem to have any issues. What this really boils down to is the fact that the OP was a nice kid but in the long run wasn't really fully committed to learning budo taijutsu but wanted to dable in multiple styles. It was obvious to the instructors the last few months he was with us his heart really wasn't in it especially since he was constantly missing classes and when he was training talked a lot about other arts he wanted to pursue.

He left by sending us an email stating like I've said before that he had financial issues and couldn't pay for training any longer and also that his new class schedule (high school classes) would prohibit him from making most classes for the next few semesters. He never once expressed any of his concerns about "patches" or "christian" themes to any student or teacher. Had he have, we certainly would have tried to come to an agreement.

We wished him the best, but in truth we knew that he had already been training at a local kagukenbo (spell?) school for sometime before leaving us.
I'd gathered that from your previous posts. Its all academic at this point: he's left your dojo and he's long since bowed out of this thread, so the majority of the discussion here has become one regarding the role (if any) of religion in a dojo. Feel free to jump in.:)

Daniel

[Chris Parker]

Hi Lionsroar,

Out of interest, do you have a responce to my points in post 207, page 14 of this thread? I'm asking mainly as you seem to have come back to argue a point that we aren't and hoped that you may take the time to clear a few things up. Thanks.

Oh, and it's Kajukembo/Kajukenbo, by the way.

[FriedRice]

I'll agree, Christian values can be good, and that in theory, a martial art should drive you to become a better person, but this should be the martial art itself, the discipline you get as you rise through your ranks, not by being told stories out of an old book.

What's the difference between this and some White guy with a huge Asian fetish implementing Asian influences in philosophy, mannerism, etc. within his MA class? I personally don't care to learn various Asian terms for an armbar, when it can just be called an armbar.

If your sensei gave you a patch with some Chinese characters right out of a Chinese restaurant menu or Buddhist prayer books, I bet you'd have no problems with it....but a cross, oh my, the world is going to end. This is just his style. If you don't like it, then you should leave. Just like if you don't like to fight in pajamas, leave also. What about if there are Buddhist statues, goddess statues, etc in the dojo? What if he tells you to wear a Yin & Yang patch?

How about bowing? Kung-Fu has a whole routine. Muay Thai has the prayer hands thingy. TKD is a continuous "Sir Yes Sir" for the whole class. Again, it's just his style to implement Biblical teachings into his class. Just like Kobrai Kai dojo where it's about killed or be killed. If you don't like it, stop paying them money and leave.