Chunkin up

[Kroy]

No offense intended to anyone reading this post but I have noticed that many of the high ranking kenpo masters are a little thick around the waist. If you surf through all of the major kenpo sites you will see what I mean. This is not as prevalent in most other systems of martial arts. I understand that as you get older you tend to train less than you use to, but wow! It's almost the 5th degree spread. It doesnt seem to send a great example. I do realize that there are some pretty fit kenpo masters out there and I salute them. Just an observation and I stress no offense intended. :idunno:

[arnisador]

I hear this often as a joke--I wonder if it really is worse in Kenpo or is just the usual middle-age spread and that people have noticed it more in Kenpoka. Maybe the uniforms draw attention to the waist?

[tarabos]

i think this has been "addressed" various times on this forum and all over the net already.

i wouldn't want to mess with all that back-up mass.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Kroy
No offense intended to anyone reading this post but I have noticed that many of the high ranking kenpo masters are a little thick around the waist. If you surf through all of the major kenpo sites you will see what I mean. This is not as prevalent in most other systems of martial arts. I understand that as you get older you tend to train less than you use to, but wow! It's almost the 5th degree spread. It doesnt seem to send a great example. I do realize that there are some pretty fit kenpo masters out there and I salute them. Just an observation and I stress no offense intended. :idunno:

Hey now, don't lump us all in there LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Bob Hubbard]

I wondered something similar a year or so back.

One explaination that I heard which I do agree with to an extent is that the high ranks are often doing the following:

1- traveling to/from seminars. A diet high in fast food is v. fattening.

2- busy teaching / running a school/org = less time training. We have only so many hours per day, and you can't train while fielding phone calls, doing paperwork and accounting, and teaching.

3- injuries - many of the seniors are older, and have suffered various injuries from decades of training.

4- Age - as we age, our metabolisms slow down. Often times we dont modify our diet/excercize to compensate for that.


Those above seem to fit most of em to a greater or lesser extent. My question is, they may have a little (or alot) of extra mass, but, can they still move. So far, every senior that I've seen on the floor, can.

:asian:

[Brother John]

I think it's more systemic than that....
and I do mean 'system'.
Kenpo is an art that doesn't rely on athleticism, but on technical skills and knowledge/insight. Those reasons you listed are good, but I think it's that as these gents get older and their metabolism slows... they make their art work inspite of their physical condition. Which is a shame. No offense meant to any of the real 'Elder Dragons' of Kenpo, but I'd love to see how they'd fly if they weren't weighed down so.
Most other 'hard' or 'external' arts require at least a modicum of physical prowess to pull off what we can without as much exertion
...to Kenpo's credit, athleticism is at best a +, and at worst an hinderance.
So... those whom we look to for our high-falootin technical knowhow...do have a tendency to plump-up.
Unfortunately it also effects their heart & respiratory systems.

Guess it helps them 'anchor' all the better... ;)
We love'm just the same.

This isn't the only reason, the others you listed are in there two, but this IS in the picture I think.

Your Brother
John

[Kirk]

I jokingly say I have the gut for my 7th degree, now I just need
the knowledge and experience. I think a lot of the reasons
posted are great possibilities and can be any combination of
those. Also note that many of the ones that are wider in the
waists these days were strong sport fighters in their day. Just
like a lot of jocks that age in other sports, they've kept up the
eating regimen while they trained 8, 9, 10 hours a day, but have
cut out that intensive of training.

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Kirk
I jokingly say I have the gut for my 7th degree, now I just need
the knowledge and experience. I think a lot of the reasons
posted are great possibilities and can be any combination of
those. Also note that many of the ones that are wider in the
waists these days were strong sport fighters in their day. Just
like a lot of jocks that age in other sports, they've kept up the
eating regimen while they trained 8, 9, 10 hours a day, but have
cut out that intensive of training.

Hey Kirk, it's called Fork in Mouth Disease and it afflicts a large majority of people. It's usually a result of marriage LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

[Kirk]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Hey Kirk, it's called Fork in Mouth Disease and it afflicts a large majority of people. It's usually a result of marriage LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

LOL, I have no comment on the marriage line *cough*

I think I've finally come down to more of 6th degree now :p

Hoping to be down to 5th by the time I test for blue LOL

[Bob Hubbard]

Workin on a bit of a 'demotion' myself.... LOL

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I wondered something similar a year or so back.

One explaination that I heard which I do agree with to an extent is that the high ranks are often doing the following:

1- traveling to/from seminars. A diet high in fast food is v. fattening.

2- busy teaching / running a school/org = less time training. We have only so many hours per day, and you can't train while fielding phone calls, doing paperwork and accounting, and teaching.

3- injuries - many of the seniors are older, and have suffered various injuries from decades of training.

4- Age - as we age, our metabolisms slow down. Often times we dont modify our diet/excercize to compensate for that.


Those above seem to fit most of em to a greater or lesser extent. My question is, they may have a little (or alot) of extra mass, but, can they still move. So far, every senior that I've seen on the floor, can.

:asian:

Good points! I have to say though, in regards to always being on the go. Remy Presas (Modern Arnis) was on the go, doing more seminars than many others, and he did not seem nearly as big as some of the Kenpo guys. Regardless of whether its a different art or not, the fact of the matter is, is that he was constantly doing seminars. I dont think he sat down and ate a salad every night.

In regards to being able to move. This is another good point. I have no doubt that they can't move, but don't forget that every fight that you get into is going to be over after a few moves. And before I start to take too much of a beating here, I'm NOT talking about NHB events, where someone is on the ground for 20+ min. Makes no diff. if you are standing or on the ground. I'm referring to the stamina issue. The bigger you are, the more weight you have to move, the faster you will slow down.

MJS

[satans.barber]

According to the American Obesity Association's website, "Approximately 127 million adults in the U.S. are overweight, 60 million obese, and 9 million severely obese.".

That's near enough ~200 million of out ~250 million of you, which is 4/5 people. Hmm, that sounds like a ridiculously high figure to me, what measurements are they using!?

Anyway, Americans are often portrayed in the media (here at least) as being overweight in the majority, but while I was over there I just saw a normal spread of weights really, if a little bigger in general, same as in the UK. Sure, there are more Jerry-Springer-canididate-man/woman-mountains than there are over here, but still not that many (in three weeks I saw maybe 10 really big people, and I was out on foot all day for most of the time). Having said that, I suppose a lot of larger people spend more time at home if mobility is a problem, rather than out and about, you I don't suppose you'd see as many.

Anyway, the point seems to be that a fair proption of Americans as a whole as classed as overweight by some measure or description, so a sub-set of kenpo seniors are also likely to be overweight by proption aren't they, just like a group of golfers, or bridge players, or D&D enthusiasts...or any other group?

No offence intended, just musing really,

Ian.

[satans.barber]

Ah, they're running off BMI, which is a stupid way of calculating whether or not someone is overweight IMHO!

According to that thing I have a BMI of 28.1, which puts me half way between overweight and obese. That's completely ridiculous.

http://www.satansbarber.co.uk/files/grad1.jpg

Do I look half way obese to anyone on there?

Ignore statisitics in my previous post, I won't stand by anything running off BMI.

Ian.

[arnisador]

His weight did vary over the years.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Only 50 more pounds to gain...then I can reveal my true name and take my place among the Kenpo Grandmasters.

[MJS]

True, but I dont think he was nearly as big as some of the people that I saw in the pics. of the seminar.

Mike

[theletch1]

Have any of you ever thought that this may be the REAL reason behind the black gi? All the women I've ever seen that have gotten a little on the heavy side have initially tried to hide it with darker clothing .... until they finally give up the hiding and start wearing the hawaiian flower print moo-moo:rofl: :shrug:

[Seig]

Originally posted by theletch1
hawaiian flower print
Maybe we should make gis out of those and call it a tribute to Mr. Parker's homeland.....

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by MJS
the faster you will slow down.

MJS

?????

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by satans.barber
Ah, they're running off BMI, which is a stupid way of calculating whether or not someone is overweight IMHO!

According to that thing I have a BMI of 28.1, which puts me half way between overweight and obese. That's completely ridiculous.

http://www.satansbarber.co.uk/files/grad1.jpg

Do I look half way obese to anyone on there?

Ignore statisitics in my previous post, I won't stand by anything running off BMI.

Ian.

Boy! You are HUGE! LOL! Just messin with ya! :rofl:

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Only 50 more pounds to gain...then I can reveal my true name and take my place among the Kenpo Grandmasters.

Then you'd have to change your username to "Very Fat Kenpoka" or something like that. :D

[cdhall]

Originally posted by satans.barber
Ah, they're running off BMI, which is a stupid way of calculating whether or not someone is overweight IMHO!

Ignore statisitics in my previous post, I won't stand by anything running off BMI.

Ian.

Amen to that. According to one of the BMIs I am obese. My doctor said to ignore that BMI stuff as well but that I should not cross into their obese category.

Funny that even overweight I can still fight for 45mins after teaching class for an hour and a half and qualify for the State Championships in 3 categories...

I'm going to be dangerous when I lose 20 more pounds.

Right on, Ian.

However they do the BMI indexes, they are screwy. One told me that for 5'9" I needed to be down around 120lbs but then when I typed that into the calculator, it was not a valid measurement and they told me I was very below average, so they didn't even like their own numbers. How stupid.

Body Fat % is the way to calculate I think. I think Covert Bailey says men should be below 14%. It's in his New Fit or Fat book. I'm not sure what my % is, but it is over 14%. I will be looking into that more as I prepare for my next grading.

Oh, I also think that the contention that you don't have to be athletic to make Kenpo work is the crux of the issue. If we all had to do jump-spinning sidekicks and break a stack of boards that were held 5ft in the air for every black belt exam, or once a year or whatever, I think this would be less of an issue.

I've seen some of our big seniors and we used to have a big guy in my original studio, and this may be another thread but I don't know how some of these guys move so fast and are so coordinated.

We used to have a guy that was about 6ft, probably 250-300lbs, maybe a bit more, and he would fight from like a Reverse Bow and his Favorite technique was a Spinning Axe Kick off his Rear Leg! I could never figure this out. How could he shift all that weight and spin and hit you in the face with his foot and be that big?

He did this with impunity. He was no fun to spar because even if you hit him it was like throwing popcorn at a brick wall.

But anyway, I have seen some big guys who could still move and that surprises me.

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by cdhall

But anyway, I have seen some big guys who could still move and that surprises me.

Yeah! But can they catch me when I am running from them? LOL! Just kidding! :D

[Kalicombat]

I cant speak for any kenpo masters, seniors, or any other kenpo practitioner, but I can speak for myself and my experience about being an overweight kenpoist, but more importantly an overweight person. The one mistake alot of people make, including average built kenpoists, is that they verbalize their disapproval of people in general being overweight. Take this from a former 500 pounder, WE DONT CARE ABOUT YOUR OPINION. You are not offering any positivity when you post snide remarks, jokes, and comments. Ive lived with these for 34 of my 37 years, and have put alot of pain out there to those that have felt compelled to bring my obesity to my attention. Long before I knew what kenpo was or who SGM Ed Parker was, I was using a brick, bottle, or baseball bat to drive this point home.

People see a fat person and wonder how they can let themselves get that way, why they dont care, how can they disrespect themselves........Its not that way. Its a vicious cycle, at least for me, that compounds itself. It is not an easy task to overcome, but it is possible, and unless you've had to fight your way out of it, you have no idea what I am talking about. If you know an overweight person, and you think you want to help them, do it privately, and let them know that you'll help them with exercise, motivation, etc.... but dont post an idiotic put-down on a public forum and expect your friend to read it and automatically just say yeah, your right, and drop 100 pounds over night.

When I was over 500 pounds, people I didnt even know would find it necessary to let me know I was fat, stare, offer a joke, or some other form of negative put down, and it ALWAYS ended in a problem, usually for them. They saw a fat guy that let himself go, made their comment and then expected to go about their business. I saw an idiot, looking at me as a mark, and when I heard what they had to say, I heard the echoes of an entire lifetime of the same sort of thing, from classmates, parents, coaches, etc... and I fought back. The funny thing about all of this is alot of the idiots would have ear rings, or long hair, a new car they were proud of, or some other vulnerable point that a person with no restraint could manipulate. People in general have a limit to which they will go to, with out crossing, to drive home a point. Not all of us do.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman

[Michael Billings]

Very scary indeed! The only thing more impressive than a little guy who can explode, move, kick and whip with focus power and decisive conviction, is seeing a big man who can do the same thing. Guess which one generally hits harder.

I like to think of something I have mentioned earlier, and that is the Concept of Critical Mass, as it applies to Body Momentum or Gravitational Marriage. It is less applicable in Rotation, the width dimension, except that even rotating, the size of the weapon (your arm) and it's actual mass, lends weight to your strike.

Smaller guys can hit hard, penetrate, and like my ex-instructor, have awfully bony elbows and knees, making Surface Concentration something felt, not just talked about. Mobility or physical speed may, or may not be superior, I think this is on a case by case basis and contingent on your training. None-the-less, what occurs to me, as I have struggled with my weight my whole life, is "Who really wants a fat Karate Teacher?" "How is this marketing yourself?" "Is it really good for my health, self-image, and self-esteem, to be obese?"

You can only answer these questions yourself, and yes, I know it is extremely difficult to lose weight when it has been there a lifetime. You will see pictures on my webpage where I was a nice 170-180, then the past decade 210-230, and now holding around 198. It has, and is tough. None the less I feel better for it.

I know a bunch of big Seniors. I know an equal number who are not big. The middle age spread hits us all, and exercise is not sufficient to control it as we get older. We naturally lose muscle mass, which is what burns the calories. The more fat, the less efficient the engine runs and the more calories are stored as fat, hence the circle of gaining weight.

It don't mean you can't kick butt and rip, tear, rend and explode when you are larger, but it does take more effort unless you have ALWAYS done it that way. And in fact you learn more economical ways of moving to compensate yet keep the techniques true to themselves.

Sorry for the rant, but a subject close to my heart ... well stomach anyway. :soapbox:

[MJS]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
?????

I'll take that as you having no idea as to what I'm talking about! If someone weighs 300 lbs, is overweight, out of shape, no stamina, how long do you honestly think that this person is going to last before they run out of gas??? The bigger you are, the more weight you have to move. If they are up against a person who is in better shape, more stamina, etc. it will only be a matter of wearing down the bigger guy. Then the one who is more in shape, moves in for the kill!

MJS

[Turner]

MJS, or perhaps you have no idea what you are talking about?

I'm 296 pounds. I am out of shape and can't walk up a flight of stairs without huffing and puffing as if my lungs want to jump out of my body and beat me to death for overexerting myself. In a sparring match it takes all of 30 seconds for me to run out of gas and want to collapse. Hey, it sounds like I'm the proof that you are right. WRONG!

I can still run 10 miles non-stop if I push myself. I may go slow and I may feel like I'm ready to pass out and I may puke a few times along the way but I can still make it. It doesn't matter that I have arthritis in every joint in my body.. yeah, my legs give out under the stress but I crawl back to my feet and keep running.

I still can grapple two hours straight being tag teamed by fresh guys. I may not have the explosiveness and may take a little longer to sink the choke or lock but I still can do it if I push myself.

I can still do 30 minutes straight on the heavy bag, going full force the whole time. In the end my knees will literally buckle after being so tired and I'll fall and sometimes I'll crawl back to my feet and keep kicking.

I've been in plenty of actual fights too. Not a single one of them lasted for more than 5 minutes, whether I was the victor or loser. Believe me, everyone was gassed and it wasn't being gassed that determined who the winner was. The winner is always the one with the most heart, the most desire to win, the person who had the most riding on the fight. Mind over matter. If you just refuse to lose or quit and are always willing to crawl back to your feet no matter how much it hurts there is a good chance that you'll be the victor.

The example that you provide is true when you look at sporting events such as the UFC or pride fights when both fighters are there and they both are fighting for a prize but will still earn some money if they lose. However, it isn't a good example of real life where the stakes are either much lower or are much higher.

NEVER assume that your being in shape will make you the victor over a guy who isn't. You don't know how hard that big guy might be willing to push back.

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
People see a fat person and wonder how they can let themselves get that way, why they dont care, how can they disrespect themselves........Its not that way.

Mr. Catherman:

For what it is worth here is what I do.

When I see someone who is 20-30lbs, maybe 50lbs overweight, it is hard to tell by looking, but I hope you see where I'm going. Someone like myself who looks OK but seems to be carrying to much weight, I tend to think like you posted above. That they "let themselves slide" as I have done gaining 30lbs myself. After I quit being a Waiter I gained a lot of weight quickly. I guess "powerwallking" a few miles a day is good exercise.

But what I want to get across is that if I see someone who is Really overweight. Where they move slow, where it is obvious that they are not just "carrying" a bit too much weight but that it is interfering with them, then I think that there may be genetic issues, injuries may be involved, maybe they were even brought up on a poor diet. But I do not stare at them or think ill of them or criticize them.

I have 2 children. When they see someone like this or make a comment about a really large person, I usually tell them that they probably have such a problem and that they probably need help. I don't tell them "Yeah, they need to take care of themselves." But I usually do tell them that diet and exercise are important but in some cases that may not be enough; and again, in the case of Thyroid problems, slow metabolisms (same thing?), injuries that prohibit working out, they may be doing quite a lot but just can't do enough. I know that if money were not an issue, there are enough clinics and experts and medications that we could help anyone. Richard Simmons has done it on TV a few times, but not everyone can afford to have someone like that work with them every day. And for all I know medication may still be necessary to permanently correct an underlying biological malfunction.

I'm sure you don't think that everyone jeers at obese people. But I thought putting my thoughts up here might do some good. I hope so.

And I think I remember you from one of Mr. Duffy's camp by the way and if I recall you carved me up pretty good during knife fighting. :eek:

Like the good book says, "Judge not." Particularly if, like me, you need to lose some weight yourself. I know most of my weight problem is diet and exercise, there is nothing wrong with me. My priorities just need realigning. I've been making progress since my recent surgery. It was a good time to go on a diet. :asian:

[MJS]

Originally posted by Turner
MJS, or perhaps you have no idea what you are talking about?

I'm 296 pounds. I am out of shape and can't walk up a flight of stairs without huffing and puffing as if my lungs want to jump out of my body and beat me to death for overexerting myself. In a sparring match it takes all of 30 seconds for me to run out of gas and want to collapse. Hey, it sounds like I'm the proof that you are right. WRONG!

I can still run 10 miles non-stop if I push myself. I may go slow and I may feel like I'm ready to pass out and I may puke a few times along the way but I can still make it. It doesn't matter that I have arthritis in every joint in my body.. yeah, my legs give out under the stress but I crawl back to my feet and keep running.

I still can grapple two hours straight being tag teamed by fresh guys. I may not have the explosiveness and may take a little longer to sink the choke or lock but I still can do it if I push myself.

I can still do 30 minutes straight on the heavy bag, going full force the whole time. In the end my knees will literally buckle after being so tired and I'll fall and sometimes I'll crawl back to my feet and keep kicking.

I've been in plenty of actual fights too. Not a single one of them lasted for more than 5 minutes, whether I was the victor or loser. Believe me, everyone was gassed and it wasn't being gassed that determined who the winner was. The winner is always the one with the most heart, the most desire to win, the person who had the most riding on the fight. Mind over matter. If you just refuse to lose or quit and are always willing to crawl back to your feet no matter how much it hurts there is a good chance that you'll be the victor.

The example that you provide is true when you look at sporting events such as the UFC or pride fights when both fighters are there and they both are fighting for a prize but will still earn some money if they lose. However, it isn't a good example of real life where the stakes are either much lower or are much higher.

NEVER assume that your being in shape will make you the victor over a guy who isn't. You don't know how hard that big guy might be willing to push back.

First, let me say again, that I am not comparing this to NHB. I stated this in my first post. You mention being out of shape, not being able to go up a flight of stairs w/o gasping for air, running 10 miles w/o stopping, except to puke, etc. However, you are still slowing down. You mention your knees feeling like they are going to buckle out from under you,etc. You mention that you can do all these things, 'If you push yourself.' Don't you think that when you slow down, that this leaves just a little opening in your reaction? Granted, not everybody that you will fight will be a marathon runner, but by slowing down, there is that chance that the other guy will be able to take advantage of that.

By all means, I am not Mr. Universe either, but I find it a little hard to believe that you can't spar for more than 30sec before losing wind, but you can grapple for 2hrs?? For my 1st degree balck belt test, sparring was a big part of it. The entire test was physical. In addition to sparring the others that were testing with me and equally tired, I also fought mult. rounds with fresh people. Yeah, I made it, but I was also getting the s**t kicked out of me. I was so tired, that the punches and kicks that I was throwing were starting to be telegraphed. Granted this was not a life and death situation, but imagine if you had to fight more than 1 person. Anybody that is in better shape always has that small advantage, and it only takes 1 mistake on your part for them to capitalize on it!

Mike

[Turner]

Perhaps I did exaggerate a little. I can probably go a little longer in sparring. It probably takes about a minute and a half for me to get really gassed fighting stand-up. Mostly because I hate point sparring, I suck at it and so being frustrated helps gas me all that much quicker. I'm not much better at ground fighting, but I like it a whole lot better so I don't get as frustrated, just as I can go for a little longer in full contact stand-up because I am better at it and don't get so frustrated.

The knees giving out are part of the arthritis. My knees can give out at any given moment whether I'm fully rested or extremely tired, though more often when I'm extremely tired. Yes, I've gotten slower over the years just as I've gotten fatter. Yes the slower reaction time can be taken advantage of, but does that mean that the guy is going to have any easier time 'going in for the kill?' The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't really matter about the size and shape. Getting 'the kill' isn't as easy as people like to imagine. Even if they are gassed and totally open to the shots, some people can take them and come right on back.

[MJS]

Originally posted by Turner
Perhaps I did exaggerate a little. I can probably go a little longer in sparring. It probably takes about a minute and a half for me to get really gassed fighting stand-up. Mostly because I hate point sparring, I suck at it and so being frustrated helps gas me all that much quicker. I'm not much better at ground fighting, but I like it a whole lot better so I don't get as frustrated, just as I can go for a little longer in full contact stand-up because I am better at it and don't get so frustrated.

The knees giving out are part of the arthritis. My knees can give out at any given moment whether I'm fully rested or extremely tired, though more often when I'm extremely tired. Yes, I've gotten slower over the years just as I've gotten fatter. Yes the slower reaction time can be taken advantage of, but does that mean that the guy is going to have any easier time 'going in for the kill?' The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't really matter about the size and shape. Getting 'the kill' isn't as easy as people like to imagine. Even if they are gassed and totally open to the shots, some people can take them and come right on back.

Thanks for clearing that up for me! As for the reaction time, if the person does not have enough 'gas' to keep going, to block, etc, then wouldnt you think that he is going to be taking alot of shots? I mean, if the out of shape guy does not bring his hand up to block quick enough, he's going to take that shot in the face right? While it might not end with one punch, the accumulation of hits will start to take its toll. Just like getting cut with a knife. A little 'nick' isnt going to stop the person, but cut after cut after cut will! Its no different with the strikes and kicks.

MJS

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by MJS
I'll take that as you having no idea as to what I'm talking about! If someone weighs 300 lbs, is overweight, out of shape, no stamina, how long do you honestly think that this person is going to last before they run out of gas??? The bigger you are, the more weight you have to move. If they are up against a person who is in better shape, more stamina, etc. it will only be a matter of wearing down the bigger guy. Then the one who is more in shape, moves in for the kill!

MJS

Your comment was just a bit odd...that is all! I knew what you meant! :shrug:

[MJS]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
Your comment was just a bit odd...that is all! I knew what you meant! :shrug:


LOL! Sorry for the confusion on my end! :shrug:

Mike

[Kalicombat]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJS
[B]I'll take that as you having no idea as to what I'm talking about! If someone weighs 300 lbs, is overweight, out of shape, no stamina, how long do you honestly think that this person is going to last before they run out of gas??? The bigger you are, the more weight you have to move. If they are up against a person who is in better shape, more stamina, etc. it will only be a matter of wearing down the bigger guy. Then the one who is more in shape, moves in for the kill!


MJS,

Your missing the point, I believe. You are still making posts from the stance that everyone is playing fair, "FIGHTING". There are those individuals out there that do not fight. They are faced with a confrontation and they end it. It could be with a weapon, a car, a blade, a gun, a 5 gallon can of gasoline and a match, a sledge hammer in the middle of the night. See, thats the difference. Your posts and responses come from the seemingly normal range of would be attackers and defenders. Mine come from a completly different book. A completely different language to be honest.
Running out of gas, stamina, etc.... those things dont come into play when there is a threat present. Elimination by any and all means is the number one rule. Im not talking about a push and shove match at the local watering hole, or a little scuffle at a dance. Im talking about a world you have no clue about. It s not just whose baddest, becuase that has no bearing on day to day survival. Its about who goes home at the end of the confrontation, who visits the emergency room, who rides away in an ambulance. There is no wearing someone down. Please!!! Its about always having a blade at hand. Always having a pistol at hand, and using it to make it home. Its about sleeping well at night without a threat of retaliation, or being woken up in the middle of the night by a blast. Its about planning while dressing before you leave your house. Wearing the right jacket so as a blade will have more trouble cutting through then another jacket. ITs about always having 2 dollars in quarters and wearing extra tube socks so you can by two sodas, slide them in the tube socks and face the unknown on your walk home. Its about configuring coat hangers into make shift eye prods, wrapped in duct tape and wearing them under your gloves, JUST IN CASE YOU NEED THEM. Wake up. The big bad wolf is out there, and he dont care if he cant stay in a fight, cause HE DONT FIGHT. He wreaks havoc, and goes home, sleeps well, and tries to remember the next day where the blood on his shoes came from.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJS
[B]I'll take that as you having no idea as to what I'm talking about! If someone weighs 300 lbs, is overweight, out of shape, no stamina, how long do you honestly think that this person is going to last before they run out of gas??? The bigger you are, the more weight you have to move. If they are up against a person who is in better shape, more stamina, etc. it will only be a matter of wearing down the bigger guy. Then the one who is more in shape, moves in for the kill!


MJS,

Your missing the point, I believe. You are still making posts from the stance that everyone is playing fair, "FIGHTING". There are those individuals out there that do not fight. They are faced with a confrontation and they end it. It could be with a weapon, a car, a blade, a gun, a 5 gallon can of gasoline and a match, a sledge hammer in the middle of the night. See, thats the difference. Your posts and responses come from the seemingly normal range of would be attackers and defenders. Mine come from a completly different book. A completely different language to be honest.
Running out of gas, stamina, etc.... those things dont come into play when there is a threat present. Elimination by any and all means is the number one rule. Im not talking about a push and shove match at the local watering hole, or a little scuffle at a dance. Im talking about a world you have no clue about. It s not just whose baddest, becuase that has no bearing on day to day survival. Its about who goes home at the end of the confrontation, who visits the emergency room, who rides away in an ambulance. There is no wearing someone down. Please!!! Its about always having a blade at hand. Always having a pistol at hand, and using it to make it home. Its about sleeping well at night without a threat of retaliation, or being woken up in the middle of the night by a blast. Its about planning while dressing before you leave your house. Wearing the right jacket so as a blade will have more trouble cutting through then another jacket. ITs about always having 2 dollars in quarters and wearing extra tube socks so you can by two sodas, slide them in the tube socks and face the unknown on your walk home. Its about configuring coat hangers into make shift eye prods, wrapped in duct tape and wearing them under your gloves, JUST IN CASE YOU NEED THEM. Wake up. The big bad wolf is out there, and he dont care if he cant stay in a fight, cause HE DONT FIGHT. He wreaks havoc, and goes home, sleeps well, and tries to remember the next day where the blood on his shoes came from.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman

And you are the combat expert in the room?? You have had all of these experiences and are an expert on street fighting?? PLEASE, I think you need to wake up. I think you also need to go back and re-read the post---slowly, so you understand what I"m saying!!!!!!!!! Regardless if you are empty handed, or if you have a weapon. Are you saying that if someone has a knife, that the fight is going to be over in 5 seconds, but if its empty handed its going to go on longer?? It makes no difference. If you find yourself in a situation, where you cant run, because this guy is determined to kill you, you will need the stamina to survive the fight. Don't you think that the guy that wreaks the havoc as you say, is going to give you a hard fight. You have to have that same "killer instinct" that he does, if you want to survive. LOL, and you wear a jacket in the summer heat along with gloves?? You make it sound that every confrontation that you have is going to be with some trained killer! LOL, that in itself is a joke. Are you calling the drunk at the bar, who can barely stand up, a trained killer?

And let me ask you this---how the hell do you know anything about me, who I am, what exp. I have or do not have, my training, or who I train with? Did you look into a crystal ball and see that? If you are faced with a guy bent on causing you some serious harm, you need to unload on him as fast and as hard as you can. And you are telling me that you dont need to be in shape for this? He might not go down after those hits, and if you wore yourself out in the first few minutes, you better kiss your a** goodbye, cuz its going to be over real soon for you.

MJS

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by MJS
I'll take that as you having no idea as to what I'm talking about! If someone weighs 300 lbs, is overweight, out of shape, no stamina, how long do you honestly think that this person is going to last before they run out of gas??? The bigger you are, the more weight you have to move. If they are up against a person who is in better shape, more stamina, etc. it will only be a matter of wearing down the bigger guy. Then the one who is more in shape, moves in for the kill!

MJS

Man..you need some street time! You can't move in for the kill if the "big guy" has you already down for the count. There are big guys out there that can do it pretty quick wieght, stamina, and physical condition not considered....Think butterbean...Im sure the guy (johnny knoxville) in Jackass the movie thought hed just wear ole butterbean down and move in for the kill huh?? He got knocked the f#ck out!

[MJS]

Originally posted by brianhunter
Man..you need some street time! You can't move in for the kill if the "big guy" has you already down for the count. There are big guys out there that can do it pretty quick wieght, stamina, and physical condition not considered....Think butterbean...Im sure the guy (johnny knoxville) in Jackass the movie thought hed just wear ole butterbean down and move in for the kill huh?? He got knocked the f#ck out!

And like KC, you are an expert on streetfighting too??? I never saw the movie, but are you compariing a movie to real life?? Come on pal, its just that, a movie!!! A big person will use their weight and size to their advantage. You are also assuming that the 'big guy' already has the advantage. Size isnt everything. Its the skills that matter. Regardless of how big the guy is, an eye jab or hit to the groin is going to get a reaction. What really matters is the person who is quicker. If you can get in with some devastating shots, its not going to matter who is bigger.

Also, don't assume that you know me or my training. Assuming does only one thing....it makes an a** out of you!

MJS

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by MJS
And like KC, you are an expert on streetfighting too??? I never saw the movie, but are you compariing a movie to real life?? Come on pal, its just that, a movie!!! A big person will use their weight and size to their advantage. You are also assuming that the 'big guy' already has the advantage. Size isnt everything. Its the skills that matter. Regardless of how big the guy is, an eye jab or hit to the groin is going to get a reaction. What really matters is the person who is quicker. If you can get in with some devastating shots, its not going to matter who is bigger.

Also, don't assume that you know me or my training. Assuming does only one thing....it makes an a** out of you!

MJS

And vice versa, you don't know me, my training, or what I do for a living. Some people here on the board do and I can bet that I see a lot more "real world" then you ever will. I think your theory of "wearing the guy down then moving in for the kill" leads me to believe you learned how to fight watching Van Damme movies, most real fights dont even last more then one minute, two tops! People dont form a circle and scream kumite while your dipping your soaked taped hands in glass....most the times it started and ended before most people can blink....big guys, little guys,skinny guys, fat guys whatever can hold there own for that period of time, I was just initially disagreeing with your point of "they will run out of gas" and you moving in for the kill theory. Its silly and speaks of your real world experience. Your so busy screaming about assumptions while on the other hand your making plenty about others and their fighting methods and experience.
Ive tried to restrain and fight 115 lb ladies that would scare you to death when they are fired up or on dope, and also the fat 300 lb guy you speak of whos drunk and takes 4-5 guys with him on the way out he doesnt run out of gas untill long after the adreniline is gone.

"an eye jab or hit to the groin is going to get a reaction"

Ever fought someone cranked up on meth? I have......ever fought a mentally crazy person who is off of their psyhchotic meds for a week or two? I have.......or the 300lb drunk who doesnt run out of gas? I have....The reaction to the groin kicked might be getting your @$$ kicked

[Brother John]

you don't know me, my training, or what I do for a living.

I do, and you're scary. No, but really, your line of work takes a level of courage and daring that is uncomon today.


I think your theory of "wearing the guy down then moving in for the kill" leads me to believe you learned how to fight watching Van Damme movies

Bingo dude. Van Damme (and his ilk) and NHB fighting have made people think that they KNOW what a street fight is really like, while in actuality... it's NOT like that.

"Wearing the guy down" is not sensible, or based on experience... I'd say.

Your Brother
John

[Brother John]

"Wearing the guy down" is not sensible, or based on experience... I'd say.

Well.... OK....
If the guy is 7' tall, over 300lbs and wearing thick leather clothing...
hop on his back and strangle him...
THAT would take some "wearing the guy down".

Your Brother
John

[meni]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I wondered something similar a year or so back.

One explaination that I heard which I do agree with to an extent is that the high ranks are often doing the following:

1- traveling to/from seminars. A diet high in fast food is v. fattening.

2- busy teaching / running a school/org = less time training. We have only so many hours per day, and you can't train while fielding phone calls, doing paperwork and accounting, and teaching.

3- injuries - many of the seniors are older, and have suffered various injuries from decades of training.

4- Age - as we age, our metabolisms slow down. Often times we dont modify our diet/excercize to compensate for that.


Those above seem to fit most of em to a greater or lesser extent. My question is, they may have a little (or alot) of extra mass, but, can they still move. So far, every senior that I've seen on the floor, can.

:asian:
excuses,excuses,excuses

some time when i see picture of some of the sinior members
the only thing that come to my mind is : they dont need kenpo that just hac e to seat on you to ! :)

[MountainSage]

This probably should be a thread of it's own, but here we go. I can jump roundhouse to a 6' tall persons head, WTF TKD Full-contact spar for 2min 4 times before exhaustion sets in then can recover in about two minutes, run 3 miles at an average of 11 min/mile, ride 50 miles non-stop on a bike, squat 750 lbs. once, and make BB piss their pants with my punches and kick. Guess my size? I find it funny that small people are the first to make judgement about large people, but I like that because the second they make that judgement; their mine!

Mountain Sage

[MJS]

Originally posted by brianhunter
And vice versa, you don't know me, my training, or what I do for a living. Some people here on the board do and I can bet that I see a lot more "real world" then you ever will. I think your theory of "wearing the guy down then moving in for the kill" leads me to believe you learned how to fight watching Van Damme movies, most real fights dont even last more then one minute, two tops! People dont form a circle and scream kumite while your dipping your soaked taped hands in glass....most the times it started and ended before most people can blink....big guys, little guys,skinny guys, fat guys whatever can hold there own for that period of time, I was just initially disagreeing with your point of "they will run out of gas" and you moving in for the kill theory. Its silly and speaks of your real world experience. Your so busy screaming about assumptions while on the other hand your making plenty about others and their fighting methods and experience.
Ive tried to restrain and fight 115 lb ladies that would scare you to death when they are fired up or on dope, and also the fat 300 lb guy you speak of whos drunk and takes 4-5 guys with him on the way out he doesnt run out of gas untill long after the adreniline is gone.

"an eye jab or hit to the groin is going to get a reaction"

Ever fought someone cranked up on meth? I have......ever fought a mentally crazy person who is off of their psyhchotic meds for a week or two? I have.......or the 300lb drunk who doesnt run out of gas? I have....The reaction to the groin kicked might be getting your @$$ kicked

Well, for those of us that dont know you, please tell us a little about yourself, seeing that you are such the streetfighter! Personally, I could care less about what you think about my training, but I can assure you I dont watch movies to get my training. The idea of thinking that every fight only lasts a min.---- and you're telling me the guy pumped on drugs and the crazy guys that you fight---those fights lasted only a min.? Yeah, ok. All I'm saying is, is that if you are fighting someone like you say, who is on drugs or whatever the case may be, that they obviously are not going to give up after a few min. And you better be in some good shape to continue the struggle, otherwise you will be getting your a** kicked.

Mike

[MountainSage]

MJS,
Don't know you, don't care, but you really should loose that case of small man syndrome.

A question for the kenpo folks, Are some of you horses-asses to begin with or does kenpo make you into a horses-ass? The attitude some of you show is really sad and unimpressive.


Mountian Sage

[MJS]

Originally posted by MountainSage
MJS,
Don't know you, don't care, but you really should loose that case of small man syndrome.

A question for the kenpo folks, Are some of you horses-asses to begin with or does kenpo make you into a horses-ass? The attitude some of you show is really sad and unimpressive.


Mountian Sage

WOW!! Sounds like some tough words there pal! I dont think that I have a small mans complex at all. As for the Kenpo---well that is not the only art that I study, so I can't speak for the other Kenpo guys on here.

As for you---the big bad TKD guy. Like I said, size isnt everything. As for TKD. Well, that is definately one art that does not impress me at all! I train with some BJJ guys and some wrestlers that would knock you on your a** with your fancy high kicks! Speaking of Van Dam, isnt that what he does??

Mike

[Bob Hubbard]

Mod Note:

Keep it polite and within the realm of respectful.

Also, there appears to be some serious thread drift going on. Please return to the main topic, and take the discussible tangents to a new thread.

Thank you.

[thomp]

what is this, the kenponet?


What I can't figure out is what anyone here has to prove on an internet message board? This thread departed from constructive a long time ago.

I am embarassed for my art to see people like MJS posting on here.

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Brother John
Well.... OK....
If the guy is 7' tall, over 300lbs and wearing thick leather clothing...
hop on his back and strangle him...
THAT would take some "wearing the guy down".

Your Brother
John

Since we are talking about movies its what the dread pirate roberts did to fezak on the princess bride HAHAHAH Hey John call me I dont have your new number since you moved!

[MountainSage]

My apologies to the board, I could have stated my question better and on another forum. Just trying to liven up the forum and seperate wheat and chaff a bit.

Mountian Sage

[MJS]

Originally posted by thomp
what is this, the kenponet?


What I can't figure out is what anyone here has to prove on an internet message board? This thread departed from constructive a long time ago.

I am embarassed for my art to see people like MJS posting on here.

Well, I make an honest attempt to take part in the discussion and everybody feels that they constantly have to bash everything I say. You should re read some of the posts here. I"m am by far, not the only one that is an embarrasment.

MJS

[MJS]

I'm going to make an attempt to get the discussion back on track. Regarding the size of people. I am talking about the average civilian not a LEO. How each one of those people handles a situation in VERY different, so lets try to focus on the civilian. It was mentioned that there is a chance that the person you face, might be on drugs, drunk, etc. The thought that a fight will be over with one punch or that it will last only a minute, is crazy. How can anyone of us put a time on how long the fight is going to go. So many factors can come into play here-- drunk, drugs, time of day, area, weapons, and the list goes on. I am not talking about a UFC event, where the fights go on for 20+ min. I'm talking about a situation where your life depends on it, not a belt!

Take into consideration if the person is on drugs. Are they going to be affected by the hit to the groin, the shot to the nose, the eye jab? Maybe and maybe not. Considering your goal is to overwhelm them with a fury of strikes, that in itself, is going to tire you out. You also need to take into conisderation, your nerves and adrenalin. If this guy does not seem willing to give up, and you have the option of running, why not do so? Of course, you also run the risk of having this guy chase after you. That will only add to your already being tired. How about if there is more than 1 attacker? Now, you run the risk of having to fight 2 or 3 drug crazed guys.

The topic is not comparing NHB to the street. 2 different things, 2 different topics. Lets keep it like that! We are talking about body size and stamina here. We are also all different. Just because 1 person here is 6'5, 260 lbs., and can move with no problem, does NOT mean that another person with the same body size will be able to do so. You can have an in shape 260 lb guy and an out of shape 260lb guy.

The civilian will not have the option of calling for backup like a LEO will. Yeah, the backup might be 2 min away, and its going to seem like 2hrs away, but the fact remains that it is coming, and they also have more things to use than the average person--handcuffs, pepper spray, gun, baton. How many of us carry those items??

Before this thread gets shut down, due to all of the ego here, lets get it back on track, and have a civilized discussion. If something is said that offends someone, keep it off the main board, and email or PM the person and discuss it there!

MJS

[Kalicombat]

I can speak for being in shape as a big man, which I currently am, and I can speak for being out of shape for a big man, which I was. At 500 pounds, I was in horrible shape, but at 400, I was walking 5 miles three days a week, and riding my bike 4 or 5 miles the rest of the days. I participated in kenpo, powerlifting, kobudo classes, and lived much as I do now at 250 pounds. I am still big, 3x shirt, and even if I get to 220, which is my goal, Ill still wear a 3x shirt. Some people on here know me, and they've seen me move at this size and even considerably larger. I wasnt running any marathons, but a streetfight, which I used to partake of on a weekly basis, was no problem. MJS, you cant generalize a topic like this by saying that a big guy will get wore down. In my previous post, I mentioned that some people dont fight, Im one of them. When I used to drink, alcohol played a large role in both my being so heavy and my excessive amount of street fights, but Ive been sober for 6 years now, so streetfighting is a thing of the past. I know many people like me, and its not about proving anything to anyone. If a violent confrontation is not avoidable, then there is only one option, elimination of the threat. Im not going to drop to the ground, Im not going to start boxing. I am goin to use what ever skills, weapons, tactics, etc... that are necessary to end the threat. Im not concerned about the other guys safety, whether he goes home, whether he has a family, those things dont even enter the picture. Once he or they have committed themselves to choosing me as their victim, whatever happens to them is on them.
In light of some of your other posts, Im not worried about being taken to the ground. The very rare occasions that I have ended up there, have never proven to be difficult to handle for me. Largely because I usually ended up on top, which was advantageous for me when I weighed 300, 400, 450, and Ive been powerlifting since junior high, so I was usually stronger then most of the people that I was fighting.
You're right, nobody knows you, possibly because you dont put your name on anything you post, or your profile. You could be a Dragon Kenpo master, or a true EPAK blackbelt, or something in between. No one knows what you do for a living, except you have stated you used to work in a prison. The one thing that is for sure is that you are a groundgame enthusiast, you seem to know what EPAK is lacking, and you dont tolerate anyones opinion that differs from yours. You may be a terror on the street, but your posts dont support that notion. You come off as having SOME knowledge, but little experience when it comes to street fighting. Like I have already stated, I dont know you, but the way you come off by your posts is as I have stated, in my opinion.
Now, back to the original topic. Take Tank Abbott for instance. He is definetly a terrible UFC fighter, not in great shape, and is a big guy. He has gotten choked out, submitted due to holds, and even got pounded on by some BJJ cat in alot better shape. Tank made his bones, by all accounts, bar fighting, and streetfighting. Where, supposedly he was very successful.... a true thug. Why the variance???? In the octagon there are rules, pads, lots of room, cameras, judges, time limits, and a prize. In the bar or street, there was close quarters, no room to run, lots of bottles, chairs, tables, concrete, and most importantly, NO RULES. Hair pulling, biting, weapons, groin shots with no cups, no pads, steel toes, eye gouges, etc.......all necessary tools in a streetfighters tool box. In the street, if your opponent runs, you have to catch him to hurt him. He could keep running, so , if you arent in shape you may never catch him and the fight is over anyway. Unless, you know him, where he lives, then streetfighters visit them at their house, and the fight resumes there.
All this is just saying, dont generalize overweight people as being at a disadvantage when it comes to streetfighting. Much like not all 160 pound guys are pencil-neck-geeks, not all heavy guys are couch-potatoes.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman
garylee65@yahoo.com

[MJS]

Gary-- check your PM's

Mike

[MJS]

I believe that we are talking about 2 different types of large people- ones that are in shape and ones that are out of shape.

Tank falls into which category? If he can get the KO in the first few min. such as in his first UFC fight (UFC6) that is when he is freshest. If the fight starts to go on and on, you can see that he gets winded, and that usually leads to his downfall. In his final match against Oleg Taktarov, you could see that he was getting very tired. It was a result of being out of shape that led him to get choked out.

While I understand and acknowledge that not every single large person out there is out of shape, being a 'couch potatoe' will not always mean a win.

As for the larger person on the ground, of course they will use their weight advantage on the ground. I have rolled with large people in training, and was able to tire them out enough and then get a submission. Was this a real fight? NO, it was a training session, so yes, that does make a difference.

True, on the street, you have more things available to you and are not limited to the rules of the UFC. Of course, not every large person knows how to effectively fight. Considering this is a topic in which there are many variables, we need to specify what type of person we are all talking about here.

At 250 lbs. you fall into that category of being an in shape large person, who knows how to fight, compared to the person who is out of shape, and has no fighting skill.

I suppose the saying, "You can't judge a book by its cover." comes into play here. Or in this case, "You can't judge a person by their size."

Check your private messages Gary.

Mike

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
In the street, if your opponent runs, you have to catch him to hurt him. He could keep running, so , if you arent in shape you may never catch him and the fight is over anyway. Unless, you know him, where he lives, then streetfighters visit them at their house, and the fight resumes there.

What? Is your interest self-defence, or attacking people? If someone runs away then that's it, you've dealt with it, over with - if you're chasing after people or going round to their houses to finish them off then that makes you the aggressor, the opponent, and the person that most people here spend time working to avoid and defeat, doesn't it? Or have I mis-understood you? :confused:

Ian.

[Kalicombat]

No, Im not going to hunt a person down over a street fight, but there are those that would.

Gary Catherman

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Mod Note:

Also, there appears to be some serious thread drift going on. Please return to the main topic, and take the discussible tangents to a new thread.

Thank you.

I could have sworn that the subject was "Chunkin up" and about the possible reasons that some of the seniors have gained a significant amount of weight. Perhaps the subject of Environmental variables/drugs could be started.
Just a thought...
Your Brother
John

[Seig]

Originally posted by MountainSage
MJS,
Don't know you, don't care, but you really should loose that case of small man syndrome.

A question for the kenpo folks, Are some of you horses-asses to begin with or does kenpo make you into a horses-ass? The attitude some of you show is really sad and unimpressive.


Mountian Sage
Don't judge the whole barrell from a few rotten fruits.

[MountainSage]

Seig,
I used the word some to try and not "paint with a wide brush" the art of kempo and smaller folks. I know from this forum there are some really good kempo MA's out there, yet the rotten one tend to leave a back smell that is remembered much longer. I don't single out kempo as the only art with this problem; my own TKD has the every same problem, yet I've been around those TKD Morons so long that I've gotten numb to their stupidity and attitude. Yes folks, I'm off topic again.

Mountian Sage

[Ender]

my new years resolution was more beer and pork rinds!!

[Brother John]

As martial artists we strive to better ourselves constantly... BUT
Our greatest strength is also our greatest weakness....


We are still humans. :asian:
The quasi-anonymous quality of the internet has a tendency to bring out the ass in many people... INCLUDING MYSELF EARLIER IN THIS VERY THREAD...
I think it was MJS that I offended with my rude/judgmental attitude toward his theories...
I'm sorry MJS, it was inappropriate and I really didn't think before hitting the submit button.
Friends?

Your Brother
John

[Brother John]

Originally posted by MountainSage
This probably should be a thread of it's own, but here we go. I can jump roundhouse to a 6' tall persons head, WTF TKD Full-contact spar for 2min 4 times before exhaustion sets in then can recover in about two minutes, run 3 miles at an average of 11 min/mile, ride 50 miles non-stop on a bike, squat 750 lbs. once, and make BB piss their pants with my punches and kick. Guess my size? I find it funny that small people are the first to make judgement about large people, but I like that because the second they make that judgement; their mine!

Mountain Sage

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All in one day???
:eek:
I'd rather buy you a beer.
:cheers:
That way if my pants get wet...
it's just the beer.... ;)
Your Brother
John

[MountainSage]

Brother John,
I have done 4 out of the 6 listed in one day, then crawled to a corner to wimper quietly. It real sucks to be that inbetween age where you think you still indestructable, yet age has begun to catch you. What's even more fun is the smaller BB in TKD kicking and punching me and then the realization that I'm not hurt. I like to watch there eye dialate and get that "deer in the headlight look" on their faces. There needs to be sport TKD just for my entertainment.:D If we ever get together you've go the first round, I'll get the second round.

Mountain Sage

[M F]

Even though I am only a 1st Black, I have started my "5th Degree Spread". Anybody interested in a MT Kenpo Forum Slim Down? :D I could stand to lose 10-15 lbs. 25 if you go by that stupid BMI thing.:shrug:

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by M F
Even though I am only a 1st Black, I have started my "5th Degree Spread". Anybody interested in a MT Kenpo Forum Slim Down? :D I could stand to lose 10-15 lbs. 25 if you go by that stupid BMI thing.:shrug:

Id be up for that!!! I know Kirk and Dot are already working on something on their own, maybe in the health and fitness we could do before pictures and offer moral support I need it too it would probably help me on the beat!

Okay go here for the thread!
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9316

[MJS]

Originally posted by Seig
Don't judge the whole barrell from a few rotten fruits.

I am entitled to my opinion just like everybody else on the forum. I am by far, not the only one who has said unkind things on here. Before you cast a judgement on someone, why dont you re read some posts and get your facts in order!!


Mike

[Brother John]

Originally posted by MJS
I am entitled to my opinion just like everybody else on the forum. I am by far, not the only one who has said unkind things on here. Before you cast a judgement on someone, why dont you re read some posts and get your facts in order!!


Mike

What I think my brother Seig was trying to say is, please don't assume that Kenpoists are jerks... just that some can be, like anyone.
You are entitled to your opinion
but once you state your opinion
anyone else is free to have an opinion of your opinion...

wow...that could get confusing fast
I'll just go back to my Latte...

Your Brother
John

[Seig]

Originally posted by MJS
I am entitled to my opinion just like everybody else on the forum. I am by far, not the only one who has said unkind things on here. Before you cast a judgement on someone, why dont you re read some posts and get your facts in order!!


Mike
Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, and no I do not have to like it. No, you are not the only one who has said unkind things here, many have, and I have taken issue with them as well. I have cast no judgement on anyone, but I am, also, entitled to my opinion. I have read the posts, my facts are in order. My facts are seldom not in order, I spend several hours a day on this board. If you have taken personal insult, as you seemingly have, then maybe you should re-examine your own post and your own opinions. I did not single you out, and I doubt you should like me to do so. Which is also why I chose not to answer your PM. If you still want me to, fine. I have avoided, by and large, responding to this thread for several reasons. The first and foremost is I find it disrepectful and distasteful. The second is that the belief(s) that overweight people can't be as good a Kenpoist as a skinny ones is just not true. I am overweight, too much so, but ask those that have seen me move if it hampers me. Can I run as far as you? Probably not. Can I go for an hour sparring? I do it twice weekly.
The medical community has labeled overweight problems and obesity as a disorder. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I am not in the medical community. I have been battling my weight for several years now, up and down. In a single year I can fluctuate 40 pounds.
In terms of my Kenpo, all it means is that I have a couple different size GIs at my disposal. It certainly doesn't impair my speed, or flexibilty. The entire crux of my post was of not judging all by the actions of the few. Maybe I should have stepped in sooner and said something. "All that good men have to do to allow the fanatics to take over is nothing."

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by Seig

The medical community has labeled overweight problems and obesity as a disorder. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I am not in the medical community. I have been battling my weight for several years now, up and down. In a single year I can fluctuate 40 pounds.
In terms of my Kenpo, all it means is that I have a couple different size GIs at my disposal. It certainly doesn't impair my speed, or flexibilty. The entire crux of my post was of not judging all by the actions of the few. Maybe I should have stepped in sooner and said something. "All that good men have to do to allow the fanatics to take over is nothing."

I am in the Medical community and we are certainly not of one mind about this issue. I personally don't believe obesity is a "disorder." I do believe it is potentially a health problem but in most people it arises from available food and pleasure in eating and not from an illness. (Most thin people are not thin because they are virtuous but instead because they are thin by nature) The weight charts were written initially by Insurance companies for maximum profit on life insurance. This means that in young people , skinnier people will generally out live fatter people. Exceptions abound. This does not mean skinnier people will have better lives than fatter people. It just means they tend to live longer. I have lots of thin people in the nursing home living forever but with questionable quality of life.

That said, most peoples knees, feet and hips feel better when they are thinner and they can fit into more stylish clothes. I don't think weight has a thing to do with value as a human being, skill as a martial artist or my ability to respect a person.

I do laugh at what I call the "Kenpo Belly" but thats partly because I have one.

In Medical terms weight is an important factor in predicting future problems for patients. In Human terms weight is unimportant as long as you are comfortable and happy with yourself. In Kenpo Terms, there are numerous big Martial artists who I respect and look to for guidance in the art.

Respectfully,

Jeff

[Kroy]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
I can speak for being in shape as a big man, which I currently am, and I can speak for being out of shape for a big man, which I was. At 500 pounds, I was in horrible shape, but at 400, I was walking 5 miles three days a week, and riding my bike 4 or 5 miles the rest of the days. I participated in kenpo, powerlifting, kobudo classes, and lived much as I do now at 250 pounds. I am still big, 3x shirt, and even if I get to 220, which is my goal, Ill still wear a 3x shirt. Some people on here know me, and they've seen me move at this size and even considerably larger. I wasnt running any marathons, but a streetfight, which I used to partake of on a weekly basis, was no problem. MJS, you cant generalize a topic like this by saying that a big guy will get wore down. In my previous post, I mentioned that some people dont fight, Im one of them. When I used to drink, alcohol played a large role in both my being so heavy and my excessive amount of street fights, but Ive been sober for 6 years now, so streetfighting is a thing of the past. I know many people like me, and its not about proving anything to anyone. If a violent confrontation is not avoidable, then there is only one option, elimination of the threat. Im not going to drop to the ground, Im not going to start boxing. I am goin to use what ever skills, weapons, tactics, etc... that are necessary to end the threat. Im not concerned about the other guys safety, whether he goes home, whether he has a family, those things dont even enter the picture. Once he or they have committed themselves to choosing me as their victim, whatever happens to them is on them.
In light of some of your other posts, Im not worried about being taken to the ground. The very rare occasions that I have ended up there, have never proven to be difficult to handle for me. Largely because I usually ended up on top, which was advantageous for me when I weighed 300, 400, 450, and Ive been powerlifting since junior high, so I was usually stronger then most of the people that I was fighting.
You're right, nobody knows you, possibly because you dont put your name on anything you post, or your profile. You could be a Dragon Kenpo master, or a true EPAK blackbelt, or something in between. No one knows what you do for a living, except you have stated you used to work in a prison. The one thing that is for sure is that you are a groundgame enthusiast, you seem to know what EPAK is lacking, and you dont tolerate anyones opinion that differs from yours. You may be a terror on the street, but your posts dont support that notion. You come off as having SOME knowledge, but little experience when it comes to street fighting. Like I have already stated, I dont know you, but the way you come off by your posts is as I have stated, in my opinion.
Now, back to the original topic. Take Tank Abbott for instance. He is definetly a terrible UFC fighter, not in great shape, and is a big guy. He has gotten choked out, submitted due to holds, and even got pounded on by some BJJ cat in alot better shape. Tank made his bones, by all accounts, bar fighting, and streetfighting. Where, supposedly he was very successful.... a true thug. Why the variance???? In the octagon there are rules, pads, lots of room, cameras, judges, time limits, and a prize. In the bar or street, there was close quarters, no room to run, lots of bottles, chairs, tables, concrete, and most importantly, NO RULES. Hair pulling, biting, weapons, groin shots with no cups, no pads, steel toes, eye gouges, etc.......all necessary tools in a streetfighters tool box. In the street, if your opponent runs, you have to catch him to hurt him. He could keep running, so , if you arent in shape you may never catch him and the fight is over anyway. Unless, you know him, where he lives, then streetfighters visit them at their house, and the fight resumes there.
All this is just saying, dont generalize overweight people as being at a disadvantage when it comes to streetfighting. Much like not all 160 pound guys are pencil-neck-geeks, not all heavy guys are couch-potatoes.

Yours in Kenpo,
Gary Catherman
garylee65@yahoo.com


If anyone wants to lose weight just ask Gary his training secrets. My hat goes off to you Gary for losing 250 lbs.:-partyon:

[arnisador]

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9316