Simplifying Kicking

[emiliozapata]

In the Kug Maky Ung Ryu system, I am working on simplifying our repertoire of kicks, refining the art of kicking down to those kicks which are linear in travel, and those which are circular. The main element of any kick in the system is body momentum and leverage. Height of throw and direction of origin become meaningless.

Linear kicks are all essentially stomp kicks thrown with the whole body mass moving towards the target, whether they be side or front in origin. Circular kicks are essentially all sweeps, again thrown utilizing body dynamics.

This eliminates lots of nomenclature and mind clutter, allowing for faster psychosomatic communication and execution of the technique.

[Tsuki-Yomi]

In the Kug Maky Ung Ryu system, I am working on simplifying our repertoire of kicks, refining the art of kicking down to those kicks which are linear in travel, and those which are circular. The main element of any kick in the system is body momentum and leverage. Height of throw and direction of origin become meaningless.

Linear kicks are all essentially stomp kicks thrown with the whole body mass moving towards the target, whether they be side or front in origin. Circular kicks are essentially all sweeps, again thrown utilizing body dynamics.

This eliminates lots of nomenclature and mind clutter, allowing for faster psychosomatic communication and execution of the technique.
Do you feel this information is helpful to the rest of us that come here? And if so, why or how can it benefit us?

[kaizasosei]

In the Kug Maky Ung Ryu system, I am working on simplifying our repertoire of kicks, refining the art of kicking down to those kicks which are linear in travel, and those which are circular. The main element of any kick in the system is body momentum and leverage. Height of throw and direction of origin become meaningless.

Linear kicks are all essentially stomp kicks thrown with the whole body mass moving towards the target, whether they be side or front in origin. Circular kicks are essentially all sweeps, again thrown utilizing body dynamics.



How about effective combos including upperbody strikes or creating openings? How do you keep your upperbody when kicking and what various strategies targeting and speeds do you make use of? Do you use your feet/legs for defense as well?
Sorry to get annoying with the questions, but how about a kick like the axe kick?-i think the the force of an axe kick is generally directed downwards or diagonally forwards although it can also slap or strafe with some effect.



j

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

I'm with Tsuki-Yomi here... it has already been established that you have no actual experience in anything even closely relating to Ninjutsu; why are you posting in a ninjutsu-specific forum? If you want to discuss your approach to your personal system, go for a general thread, you will probably find more encouraging responces there. Oh, and while you're at it, please change the name of your system from "ninjitsu", you're just embarassing yourself with those here who train in the genuine thing.

[jarrod]

In the Kug Maky Ung Ryu system, I am working on simplifying our repertoire of kicks, refining the art of kicking down to those kicks which are linear in travel, and those which are circular. The main element of any kick in the system is body momentum and leverage. Height of throw and direction of origin become meaningless.

Linear kicks are all essentially stomp kicks thrown with the whole body mass moving towards the target, whether they be side or front in origin. Circular kicks are essentially all sweeps, again thrown utilizing body dynamics.

This eliminates lots of nomenclature and mind clutter, allowing for faster psychosomatic communication and execution of the technique.

IIRC, tracy's kenpo does the same thing at the upper ranks, though they still use other names for various kicks at the lower ranks.

jf

[bluekey88]

In the Kug Maky Ung Ryu system, I am working on simplifying our repertoire of kicks, refining the art of kicking down to those kicks which are linear in travel, and those which are circular. The main element of any kick in the system is body momentum and leverage. Height of throw and direction of origin become meaningless.

Linear kicks are all essentially stomp kicks thrown with the whole body mass moving towards the target, whether they be side or front in origin. Circular kicks are essentially all sweeps, again thrown utilizing body dynamics.

This eliminates lots of nomenclature and mind clutter, allowing for faster psychosomatic communication and execution of the technique.

On the face of it, you're right...kicks are either straight or circular in nature.

However, that is still a huge simplification. A stomp has a different mechanic and tactical purpose than a front thrust kick or a side kick. A roundhouse kick to the leg has a different mechanic, tactical use and training methodology than a reaping sweep.

There has to be some level of differentiation with the ultimate goal of being able to flow from move to move and throw kicks and other techniques at any angle from any position.

Finally...what is "psychosomatc communication"? Is that like when I think I'm communicating but really not?

Peace,
Erik

[DarkPhoenix]

Now what kind of kicking do you intend on using? As the Piano Guy ahead of me stated there are different mechanics for each style of kicking. If you want to simplify your kicks, think about where you want your targets to be. That should help significantly in narrowing down the kicks used.

[Flying Crane]

IIRC, tracy's kenpo does the same thing at the upper ranks, though they still use other names for various kicks at the lower ranks.

jf

I've never heard of this.

I'm not a "high ranking" Tracy guy, but I've been involved in Tracys for about 25 years and am studying under one of the Tracy senior instructors. I've never heard mention of this.

I'd be curious to know where you got this information...

thanks.

[emiliozapata]

How about effective combos including upperbody strikes or creating openings? How do you keep your upperbody when kicking and what various strategies targeting and speeds do you make use of? Do you use your feet/legs for defense as well?
Sorry to get annoying with the questions, but how about a kick like the axe kick?-i think the the force of an axe kick is generally directed downwards or diagonally forwards although it can also slap or strafe with some effect.



jPersonally, I do not include the axe kick in my arsenal. This kick is considered low percentage and often results in an imbalancing of the thrower. Keeping balance at all times is paramount in my taijutsu. Combos lend themselves by understanding the potential energy in the torso of the body and utilizing it. Left stomp kicks impart a natural torsional energy potential into the torso for a right upper extremity attack. It is crucial to be able to retain center while learning to feel this rotational potential.

[Tetsujin]

In the Kug Maky Ung Ryu system, I am working on simplifying our repertoire of kicks, refining the art of kicking down to those kicks which are linear in travel, and those which are circular. The main element of any kick in the system is body momentum and leverage. Height of throw and direction of origin become meaningless.

Linear kicks are all essentially stomp kicks thrown with the whole body mass moving towards the target, whether they be side or front in origin. Circular kicks are essentially all sweeps, again thrown utilizing body dynamics.

This eliminates lots of nomenclature and mind clutter, allowing for faster psychosomatic communication and execution of the technique.
You make a lot of sense.

I've found that all kicks are things done with your legs, whether they are circular or linear in origin. I suggest we refer to all such techniques only as "kicks".

This eliminates even more nomenclature and mind clutter, allowing for even faster psychosomatic communication and execution of technique.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

A circular kick can be done as a stomp. A circular kick can be used as a feint, as a counter, as a push to create space and distancing among other things.

and a Linear kick can be a sweep. It can be used as a throw or take down as seen in Judo Ashi waza(leg throws)

Why narrow the kicks into such limited catagories?

[emiliozapata]

Why narrow the kicks into such limited catagories?[/quote]

This is due to the fact that I believe in having a few tools that I have mastered in my tool box, rather than many tools which I have not mastered. Tools which I don't have to think about, tools which have become ingrained instinct. Thousands of repetitions of a basic technique is superior to hundreds of repetitions of complex technique.

Everyone has been in a class where a new technique is introduced, you then partner up, practice it, for what 20-30 minutes and move on. When do you randori with it? When do you own it?

I myself would rather own two kicks , rather than lease or borrow a hundred.

As a side not I agree about making space with kicks, partly I see kicks as merely a way of controlling the range of a fight. You see this more and more in MMA as fighters revisit the good old fashioned front kick, versus only using Muay Thai roundhouse. Blunting a forward movement by your opponent by shoving your foot into his gut is a very effective check/stop and doesn't really even require lots of impact force. Just don't leave it out to get caught.

[punisher73]

Why narrow the kicks into such limited catagories?

This is due to the fact that I believe in having a few tools that I have mastered in my tool box, rather than many tools which I have not mastered. Tools which I don't have to think about, tools which have become ingrained instinct. Thousands of repetitions of a basic technique is superior to hundreds of repetitions of complex technique.

Everyone has been in a class where a new technique is introduced, you then partner up, practice it, for what 20-30 minutes and move on. When do you randori with it? When do you own it?

I myself would rather own two kicks , rather than lease or borrow a hundred.

As a side not I agree about making space with kicks, partly I see kicks as merely a way of controlling the range of a fight. You see this more and more in MMA as fighters revisit the good old fashioned front kick, versus only using Muay Thai roundhouse. Blunting a forward movement by your opponent by shoving your foot into his gut is a very effective check/stop and doesn't really even require lots of impact force. Just don't leave it out to get caught.[/quote]

You are comparing apples and oranges for your argument. You want two kicks you can rely on, good go for it. But, what about when you have another tool in your toolbox that you can add that addresses a situation that the other two don't account for? The different terms are because kicks provide different functions, we aren't talking about a low, middle high front kick that is the same kick just different targets. You are talking about snapping vs. thrusting; linear vs. circular and others.

You also talk about "psychosomatic communication" which is a term you have obviously created. Psychosomatic is a term used in psychiatry to talk about physical symptoms that replicate a disease or imbalance in the body that does not have an outside organic source. For example, if someone always says that situation X "makes them sick to their stomach" and then the stress of X happens and they vomit, it is a symptom brought on by their mind, not a virus etc.
I think what you are getting at is more in lines with a misapplication of "Hick's Law" and has more to do with mylination or "muscle memory".

[punisher73]

As a side not I agree about making space with kicks, partly I see kicks as merely a way of controlling the range of a fight. You see this more and more in MMA as fighters revisit the good old fashioned front kick, versus only using Muay Thai roundhouse. Blunting a forward movement by your opponent by shoving your foot into his gut is a very effective check/stop and doesn't really even require lots of impact force. Just don't leave it out to get caught.


The front kick used in MMA is a "teep" or front thrust kick also taken from Muay Thai. It is not the same type of front kick used in Japanese/Okinawan/Korean based karate styles.

[emiliozapata]

I take psychosomatic to be "MindBody". You are correct in your use of the term as it relates to symptomology, however I was talking about mind-body communication, which is slightly different from muscle memory. The process of recognizing a need to kick a target, choosing the weapon i.e. right or left leg, angle of attack , intensity etc. then executing it with chosen weapon and supporting body systems is the process of psychosomatic communication. Richard Strozzi Heckler explores some of this in "Holding the Center", a great book on his work in psychology utilizing the body.

Assuming I made up a term without understanding it is insultive, kind of as if you had called me a pneumocephalic.

[JadecloudAlchemist]

This is due to the fact that I believe in having a few tools that I have mastered in my tool box, rather than many tools which I have not mastered. Tools which I don't have to think about, tools which have become ingrained instinct. Thousands of repetitions of a basic technique is superior to hundreds of repetitions of complex technique.

And you think practicing the Judo Ashi waza is not able to become ingrained as well?

What about the person who practices your two kicks the ashi waza,and the ability to blend and use the feet in a versatile manner?



Everyone has been in a class where a new technique is introduced, you then partner up, practice it, for what 20-30 minutes and move on. When do you randori with it? When do you own it?
Um Randori is till there thats where you learn that learning two kicks is not enough against the guy who can use his feet versatile.

You own it when you can use your body,mind correctly to pull it off in a fighting or sparing condition.


I myself would rather own two kicks , rather than lease or borrow a hundred.
To each their own however the Ninjutsu schools of old did use the feet for all sorts of things and was not limited to just kicking such as pinning,throwing and so on.


As a side not I agree about making space with kicks, partly I see kicks as merely a way of controlling the range of a fight. You see this more and more in MMA as fighters revisit the good old fashioned front kick, versus only using Muay Thai roundhouse. Blunting a forward movement by your opponent by shoving your foot into his gut is a very effective check/stop and doesn't really even require lots of impact force. Just don't leave it out to get caught. They can control the range same as a punch can. They can be a feint to off set the beat of the fighter,They can be used for many things think outside the box feet and legs are like arms and hands they are strong and can be utlitized for many things.

[jarrod]

I've never heard of this.

I'm not a "high ranking" Tracy guy, but I've been involved in Tracys for about 25 years and am studying under one of the Tracy senior instructors. I've never heard mention of this.

I'd be curious to know where you got this information...

thanks.

i took tracy's for about a month & the instructor told me this. it was a looooooong time ago, & i may not remember correctly, or may have misunderstood.

jf

[Flying Crane]

i took tracy's for about a month & the instructor told me this. it was a looooooong time ago, & i may not remember correctly, or may have misunderstood.

jf

right on.

well, all I can say is I've never heard this expressed in my experience. Thanks.

[jarrod]

right on.

well, all I can say is I've never heard this expressed in my experience. Thanks.

good to know, i guess i better quit telling people :D

jf

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

Emilio, you may have noticed that each of your threads have moved out of the Ninjutsu forums, into the General pages (thank you to the Mods for that). Might I suggest you take this as a friendly hint as to where your stuff belongs in future?

And, for what it's worth, I've looked over your videos, you certainly are in top condition, but I have to ask "Why?" And I am not really convinced by your answer about physicallity defeating technique/experience. Look around at authentic Ninjutsu practitioners, other Martil Artists, even modern military (soldiers etc), and you willl find that almost none look like body builders or professional wrestlers, mainly because it is not the be-all end-all. In fact, I would ask you what exactly you're scared of, that you need that amount of physical presence to feel safe and powerful (let's remember that the most popular form of self defence these days is body building at the gym, with the idea of "I'm big and scary, please don't attack me")?

All in all, your videos are very impressive, and if I wanted to get into body sculpting, I would probably look to you as a good reference, but you have yet to impress most, if any, of us with anything that would justify formulating your own system, let alone a New and Improved system we should all want to know about. The best advice you have been given is to visit a real school, get more experience and a better understanding, and who knows, maybe you will one day be one of the true greats! I truly hope you will.

I do have to address one last thing, though:

Assuming I made up a term without understanding it is insultive, kind of as if you had called me a pneumocephalic.

Can you possibly think of any reason we would jump to that assumption? (And for what it's worth, I've never come across your usage of psychosomatic either... doesn't mean it isn't there, just that I've never seen it. I've always seen psychosomatic as being the mind influence on the body, not necessarily communication as a two way street.)

Finally, I realise that this post actually goes across a number of threads, rather than addressing this one specifically, and for that I apologise. However, I feel you willl benefit from hearing it all one more time. Remember, little kids playing Cowboys and Indians really have no understanding about the realities of the Old Western Frontier of the USA, so you wouldn't ask them to teach you about it, would you?

[punisher73]

I take psychosomatic to be "MindBody". You are correct in your use of the term as it relates to symptomology, however I was talking about mind-body communication, which is slightly different from muscle memory. The process of recognizing a need to kick a target, choosing the weapon i.e. right or left leg, angle of attack , intensity etc. then executing it with chosen weapon and supporting body systems is the process of psychosomatic communication. Richard Strozzi Heckler explores some of this in "Holding the Center", a great book on his work in psychology utilizing the body.

Assuming I made up a term without understanding it is insultive, kind of as if you had called me a pneumocephalic.

There is no scientific term of "psychosomatic communication" as it relates to what you are trying to say it means. What you are defining it as, is again the process of mylineation. You see a stimuli and through repeated repititions the process becomes ingrained and you respond without conscious thought or extra effort.

"Psychosomatic Communication" is a buzzword used in alternative health and hypnosis that again is describing a different process than the one you have assigned to it.

[shesulsa]

Why narrow the kicks into such limited catagories?

This is due to the fact that I believe in having a few tools that I have mastered in my tool box, rather than many tools which I have not mastered. Tools which I don't have to think about, tools which have become ingrained instinct. Thousands of repetitions of a basic technique is superior to hundreds of repetitions of complex technique.

Everyone has been in a class where a new technique is introduced, you then partner up, practice it, for what 20-30 minutes and move on. When do you randori with it? When do you own it?

I myself would rather own two kicks , rather than lease or borrow a hundred.

As a side not I agree about making space with kicks, partly I see kicks as merely a way of controlling the range of a fight. You see this more and more in MMA as fighters revisit the good old fashioned front kick, versus only using Muay Thai roundhouse. Blunting a forward movement by your opponent by shoving your foot into his gut is a very effective check/stop and doesn't really even require lots of impact force. Just don't leave it out to get caught.
Just two kicks? Psychosomatic kicks? Tell me ... on your stomp kick, what is the position of your support leg and your foot in relation to the opponent, what kind of torque are you using on your hips and how does it differ for low targets as opposed to mid-level and high targets?


I take psychosomatic to be "MindBody". You are correct in your use of the term as it relates to symptomology, however I was talking about mind-body communication, which is slightly different from muscle memory. The process of recognizing a need to kick a target, choosing the weapon i.e. right or left leg, angle of attack , intensity etc. then executing it with chosen weapon and supporting body systems is the process of psychosomatic communication. Richard Strozzi Heckler explores some of this in "Holding the Center", a great book on his work in psychology utilizing the body.

Assuming I made up a term without understanding it is insultive, kind of as if you had called me a pneumocephalic.

:lfao: Stop, please.

[DavidCC]

I've started calling everything in my toolbox "hammer", that way I only need to know how to use one thing.

[emiliozapata]

There is no scientific term of "psychosomatic communication" as it relates to what you are trying to say it means. What you are defining it as, is again the process of mylineation. You see a stimuli and through repeated repititions the process becomes ingrained and you respond without conscious thought or extra effort.

"Psychosomatic Communication" is a buzzword used in alternative health and hypnosis that again is describing a different process than the one you have assigned to it.


You might want to re-check the meaning of mylineation. It is a process of development occuring in the maturing nervous cells, broken or disrupted in various neurological disease states. Medical terminology wise pyschosomatic means nothing more than mindbody. My use of it is indeed correct, as it relates to my subject. What you are describing is more related to a conditioned response process. Thank You, EZ

[bluekey88]

Weeeellll...if you want to nitpick...while your use of psychosomatic is correct....it is also deceptive as that is not how MOST psychologists use the term.

Hell, your insisence on the Mind-body term is pretty outdated now. There is no Mind-Body. The mind is not a seperate thing...mind over matter, mind-bodt all of that is throwback to Cartesian Dualism. You just have a body, what we refer to as the mind is an outgrowth of the complexity of the interconnected and nested systems of that body and grows out of that but is not seperate from it.

What thi shas to do with MA? Very little. In the end, it would be better, in my opinion to use slearer terms and not try to beef up your explanations with "big words" to make it sound like it is more than it really is. In fact, what you propose is not really new stuff. I cna think of a number of gentleman (Ian Abenrathy springs to mind) that also propose a simplified toolbox and simpler nomenclature for SD systems.

Peace,
Erik

[punisher73]

You might want to re-check the meaning of mylineation. It is a process of development occuring in the maturing nervous cells, broken or disrupted in various neurological disease states. Medical terminology wise pyschosomatic means nothing more than mindbody. My use of it is indeed correct, as it relates to my subject. What you are describing is more related to a conditioned response process. Thank You, EZ


Bruce Siddle one of the pioneers on combat training and how it pertains to stress. States:


Keeping in mind that memory is based on recognition, or recall, it appears that the basis of memory encompasses two issues. The first pertains to a substance called Myelin. Myelin is a fatty protein that the brain releases to coat the connection between two dendrites as new information is made. This happens the first time a connection is made, and thereafter, anytime there is a proper stimulus from the environment to activate that connection again. At the time of the connection, it takes a lot of energy to "get" it. After that it gets easier and easier as the myelin forms a thicker coat. Eventually, with enough repitiion, the connection becomes sufficiently 'myleinated' and able to operate without effort (Deprter & Hernacki, 1992). The second basis of memory is the number of associations that stimulate the program. Obviously, the more associations that encompass several perceptual senses (sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch) the more the strength of the program will be enhanced. (Taken from Spontaneous Knife Defense Instructor Manual pg 6-7 copywright 1989).

That is a pretty clear cut scientific definition of what I am talking about and how it is related to combat. You need both the myleination and the stimulus/response to successfully utilize one of your kicks. Now if you want to touch upon the use of alpha brain wave training and how it can shortcut the learning process and speed things up and refer to that as a mind/body connection than it would be more appropriate.

[Zero]

Personally, I think Emilio's a bit on the small side but then maybe that's just looking at it from a heavyweight perspective.

Top marks for putting effort in and you're welcome to come train with me if you want to lift some real weight. But as everyone else has said, if you are looking at creating a style, a complete style of self defense or martial art, then technique goes a long way and is almost everything - particularly if you expect or wish others (of varying size) to follow this style of yours.

You're right that just pure fitness and strength and physical prowess will hold you in good stead, I have won several fights when I was younger and less experienced, against "better" fighters because of my better endurance and strength. But, that only gets you so far for so long. Without skill in fighting applications (Kicking, punching, submissions) and experience in combat, physicallity itself is not what will keep you alive on the street or winning tournaments.

Show us some decent moves or techniques, show us what you can do rather than "still shot" poses and you may get more time and the respect you may deserve.