to condition the knuckles or not

[jarrod]

i did some shin, foot, & knuckle conditioning early in my training but didn't really maintain it. recently i thought it would fun to revisit it, so i had a good bareknuckle session on the heavy bag. then i realized my knuckles were all skinned up & gross looking, & that i hadn't punched anyone without a glove on my hand in something like 14 years. so it was fun to get back to for a day, but it doesn't seem like the best use of training time for me. how about you?

jf

[Thesemindz]

i did some shin, foot, & knuckle conditioning early in my training but didn't really maintain it. recently i thought it would fun to revisit it, so i had a good bareknuckle session on the heavy bag. then i realized my knuckles were all skinned up & gross looking, & that i hadn't punched anyone without a glove on my hand in something like 14 years. so it was fun to get back to for a day, but it doesn't seem like the best use of training time for me. how about you?

jf


I think it's less important to condition the knuckles then it is to develop solid structure of the weapon.

In a real combat situation, the thin skin over the knuckles will probably be torn open anyway if you use any significant amount of closed hand strikes. With the adrenaline and endorphins you will most likely have coursing through your system, you won't even feel it. However, being able to deliver powerful strikes without sacrificing weapon structure is key to power transfer. I like to practice punching hardened targets not so that I can develop a pain threshold, or tougher hands, but so that I can develop the ability to strike a resisting target, with a great deal of force, while maintaining proper weapon structure and alignment. I've learned the hard way what happens when your wrist bends under load, or when your fingers roll and collapse into the interior of your fist. Ouch.

As a side note, I think it's equally important to practice striking soft targets. I've found that bricks may hurt to punch, but in some ways their hardened structure allows for a more solid strike. Heavy bags and focus pads can give in unpredictable ways which can also cause your weapons to roll on you. Since humans are made of both hard and squishy parts, and they are my ideal striking surface, I find it useful to train on both types of targets.


-Rob

[seasoned]

I think it's less important to condition the knuckles then it is to develop solid structure of the weapon.

In a real combat situation, the thin skin over the knuckles will probably be torn open anyway if you use any significant amount of closed hand strikes. With the adrenaline and endorphins you will most likely have coursing through your system, you won't even feel it. However, being able to deliver powerful strikes without sacrificing weapon structure is key to power transfer. I like to practice punching hardened targets not so that I can develop a pain threshold, or tougher hands, but so that I can develop the ability to strike a resisting target, with a great deal of force, while maintaining proper weapon structure and alignment. I've learned the hard way what happens when your wrist bends under load, or when your fingers roll and collapse into the interior of your fist. Ouch.


As a side note, I think it's equally important to practice striking soft targets. I've found that bricks may hurt to punch, but in some ways their hardened structure allows for a more solid strike. Heavy bags and focus pads can give in unpredictable ways which can also cause your weapons to roll on you. Since humans are made of both hard and squishy parts, and they are my ideal striking surface, I find it useful to train on both types of targets.

-Rob

We have used the Makiwara (striking post) in our training for years. The Makiwara is designed to give the striker resistance as well as allowing you to maintain body structure. It is a very misunderstood tool, and looses it’s effectiveness as a learning tool when replaced by a punching bag. Once you have grasped the principals of the Makiwara, all others forms of hitting are enhanced.

[tshadowchaser]

Having broken my hand a few times with misplaced strikes I know how important proper technique is . Hand conditioning may help you punch stronger against a resistive target but it dose not guarantee that you will hit correctly.
Also long years of hand conditioning have left there mark on me with a case of arthritis ( which I admit I might have got at my age anyway)
I do know that I tended to hit harder when I conditioned my hands but then again I was younger and may have done so with adrenalin flow anyway

[terryl965]

Conditioning is important and well as positioning and hitting with proper technique.

[seasoned]

Having broken my hand a few times with misplaced strikes I know how important proper technique is . Hand conditioning may help you punch stronger against a resistive target but it dose not guarantee that you will hit correctly.
Also long years of hand conditioning have left there mark on me with a case of arthritis ( which I admit I might have got at my age anyway)
I do know that I tended to hit harder when I conditioned my hands but then again I was younger and may have done so with adrenalin flow anyway

Good point. I know from experience that hand conditioning is long and tedious, but was a very important part of my beginning years. My art of GoJu (hard/soft) would imply that there is a progression over many years. Because of time restraints or boredom some never attain the latter. Once the softer aspects of the art are realized, or in other words, you are old J , you can still enjoy you art, with a renewed out look. Hard to soft, young to old. At this point it is not how hard we hit, but ever more important, where we hit. This should not be a problem because of the many years of proper structure training.
:asian:

[Thesemindz]

One other point I forgot to mention last night. The people I've trained with have always done the majority of their training bare fisted. No gloves or wraps. The only times we used gear was for intermediate level sparring and when we were doing drills which were extremely intense and involved a high degree of commitment, and concurrently a higher degree of risk. As a result, we learned to hit hard, at odd angles, without losing weapon structure.

For a while we had some MMA students renting mat time in our school, and they always wrapped their hands before doing bag work. They thought it was dangerous of us not to, because it lessened the risk of their wrists rolling if they hit the bag poorly. And while they weren't wrong, that is the difference between sport and combat. Nothing wrong with sport, it just isn't what we were training for.

I'm not training for a combat situation where I will have on wraps and gloves, so I don't train with them. I'm training for an arena where my bare hands may be the only weapon I have, and I want that blade to be as sharp as possible.


-Rob

[seasoned]

One other point I forgot to mention last night. The people I've trained with have always done the majority of their training bare fisted. No gloves or wraps. The only times we used gear was for intermediate level sparring and when we were doing drills which were extremely intense and involved a high degree of commitment, and concurrently a higher degree of risk. As a result, we learned to hit hard, at odd angles, without losing weapon structure.

For a while we had some MMA students renting mat time in our school, and they always wrapped their hands before doing bag work. They thought it was dangerous of us not to, because it lessened the risk of their wrists rolling if they hit the bag poorly. And while they weren't wrong, that is the difference between sport and combat. Nothing wrong with sport, it just isn't what we were training for.

I'm not training for a combat situation where I will have on wraps and gloves, so I don't train with them. I'm training for an arena where my bare hands may be the only weapon I have, and I want that blade to be as sharp as possible.


-Rob
And so it is with boxing, great punches, dynamite power, would not want to get hit by a trained boxer. But, a sport it is. You are so correct about the bare fist. In battle you can’t worry if you are hitting with the proper part of your hand, that is where training comes in. A broken finger or hand, in a SD situation will limit your survival.
My Sensei always said, why cover your weapons. Train as you would defend yourself.

[Drac]

We have used the Makiwara (striking post) in our training for years. The Makiwara is designed to give the striker resistance as well as allowing you to maintain body structure. It is a very misunderstood tool, and looses it’s effectiveness as a learning tool when replaced by a punching bag. Once you have grasped the principals of the Makiwara, all others forms of hitting are enhanced.

Ahhh, another brother from the old school...

[seasoned]

Ahhh, another brother from the old school...

Oss. :asian:

[searcher]

I try to conditionparts that are not going to directly effect my ability to make a living. I condition my shins, elbows, and palms. I try to condition without doind anything that will give me problems. I have invested in quite a bit of Dit Da Jow.

[Drac]

Most of us old timers will remember Tak Kubota and how he use to conditions his body parts...

[jks9199]

If you don't condition your weapons, you don't have weapons.

But that doesn't mean you have to damage your body, either. There are ways to condition your hands, feet, and other body weapons that don't leave you crippled. Different styles have different methods of doing this, and each has its merits.

[seasoned]

If you don't condition your weapons, you don't have weapons.

But that doesn't mean you have to damage your body, either. There are ways to condition your hands, feet, and other body weapons that don't leave you crippled. Different styles have different methods of doing this, and each has its merits.





In Judo they condition their body for falls, by being thrown. In karate by hitting things. But you are correct, everything in moderation. In this day and age we all have jobs to go to. Not like at the dawning of MA, when all you had to worry about, was the next battle, and could train and abuse your body all day long.

[Andrew Green]

In Judo they condition their body for falls, by being thrown. In karate by hitting things. But you are correct, everything in moderation. In this day and age we all have jobs to go to. Not like at the dawning of MA, when all you had to worry about, was the next battle, and could train and abuse your body all day long.



This is true, however they condition their bodies through falling on mats. What some people like to do as conditioning is more like smashing your head into the pavement to "condition" against being thrown on your head on "the street."

Conditioning should be strengthening muscles, imroving technique, etc. Not damaging joints so they "rebuild stronger", not if you want to use your hands into old age anyways. Some impact is good, too much will do more harm then good in the long run though.

[Tez3]

One other point I forgot to mention last night. The people I've trained with have always done the majority of their training bare fisted. No gloves or wraps. The only times we used gear was for intermediate level sparring and when we were doing drills which were extremely intense and involved a high degree of commitment, and concurrently a higher degree of risk. As a result, we learned to hit hard, at odd angles, without losing weapon structure.

For a while we had some MMA students renting mat time in our school, and they always wrapped their hands before doing bag work. They thought it was dangerous of us not to, because it lessened the risk of their wrists rolling if they hit the bag poorly. And while they weren't wrong, that is the difference between sport and combat. Nothing wrong with sport, it just isn't what we were training for.

I'm not training for a combat situation where I will have on wraps and gloves, so I don't train with them. I'm training for an arena where my bare hands may be the only weapon I have, and I want that blade to be as sharp as possible.


-Rob


I will wrap my hands when punching or wear gloves, I also never go into a situation which might turn out 'sticky' without wearing gloves. They are practically the first thing I reach for, my gloves are kevlar lined as are many of my colleagues and useful for a number of reasons.
I think it can sound superior sometimes to say one is training for 'real' combat, wrapping your hands while training has little effect on whether you can use them without wraps when necessary. Wraps as the MMA people have rightly said save your wrists if you hit badly thus enabling you to train wiser and better.

[jarrod]

tez raises an interesting point. i think i'll just invest in a good pair of sap gloves.

jf

[tellner]

There are ways of conditioning the hands. But every good one of them is slow and gradual and uses a lot of "eye of newt" medicines. You can get your hands to the point where you can drive tacks into the knuckles. But you can also give yourself traumatic arthritis twenty years down the line and not be able to use your hands for anything except clubs.

You aren't the Emperor's personal guard. You need your hands for lots of things from work to buttoning shirts to typing on Martial Talk. Don't hurt yourself worse in training than the fight you're preparing for in real life.

If you're going to condition anything concentrate on forearms and shins. They make great weapons. Since they aren't joints you can overtrain without permanently hurting yourself. And whole martial arts styles like Cimande Silat and Muay Thai use them to deadly effect.

[Andy Moynihan]

The other thing to consider is that many of those bone calcifying conditioning techniques were developed at a time when most people didn't live long enough to get arthritis and there were but very few legal aspects to self defense.

It made sense to smash tiles or boards as they would have simulated the armor worn by samurai at that time. Nowadays breaking's just a stunt.

Heavily conditioned hands suggest preparation to use them as bludgeons, and therefore imply intent in a modern courtroom and there's your justified self defense claim in serious jeopardy.

Also you should realize that if you condition your hands to that level you are risking the chance that they will never again be normal, or nonarthritic.


Awful heavy price to pay for doing a stunt.

[Thesemindz]

I will wrap my hands when punching or wear gloves, I also never go into a situation which might turn out 'sticky' without wearing gloves. They are practically the first thing I reach for, my gloves are kevlar lined as are many of my colleagues and useful for a number of reasons.
I think it can sound superior sometimes to say one is training for 'real' combat, wrapping your hands while training has little effect on whether you can use them without wraps when necessary. Wraps as the MMA people have rightly said save your wrists if you hit badly thus enabling you to train wiser and better.

I understand your point, however I think perhaps you and I are approaching the situation from different angles.

First, it sounds from the tone of your post, and I could certainly be wrong, that you have an occupation which requires you to occasionally "go into a situation which might turn out sticky." I on the other hand, do not. I choose to avoid violence whenever possible, and have no intention of using it as a means of conflict resolution given a suitable alternative. If I find myself in a combat situation, it will be because I was given no other choice, no warning to plan or prepare, and insufficient space to run away. Grabbing a pair of gloves and suiting up simply won't be an option.

As far as sounding superior, that was not my intention at all. It isn't a matter of better or worse, it's a matter of apples and oranges. They are training for sport, where their hands will most definately be both taped and gloved. They should train in exactly that fashion. I, on the other hand, train for self defense, where I will be neither taped, nor gloved. Training with either would hardly adequately prepare me for a situation where I have neither.

You're right, it is more dangerous to work the bag without tape and gloves, because my wrist might roll, and I might hurt myself. I know, because it's happened. Not having the tape and gloves to protect against that eventuality means that I must be that much more conscious of each and every punch I throw. I must focus on form and angle with every strike. And if I roll my wrist, I must somehow fight through the pain.

Just like in the scenario for which I train.


-Rob

[Andy Moynihan]

I understand your point, however I think perhaps you and I are approaching the situation from different angles.

First, it sounds from the tone of your post, and I could certainly be wrong, that you have an occupation which requires you to occasionally "go into a situation which might turn out sticky."

Most cops do. :)

As far as gloves go, It doesn't much matter to me as I usually don't strike with my knuckles anyway.

[Drac]

I understand your point, however I think perhaps you and I are approaching the situation from different angles.

First, it sounds from the tone of your post, and I could certainly be wrong, that you have an occupation which requires you to occasionally "go into a situation which might turn out sticky."Rob


Most cops do. :).

Yep..

[Tez3]

Striking with the knuckles is a bit risky for a number of reasons, police will always look at your knuckles when an altercation has taken place, medics will too if you have to have medical treatment and will report damaged knuckles to the police. Another reason I wear gloves lol!
As has been previously pointed out, 'conditioning' your knuckles will lead to damage that is out of proportion to any SD you may have to do.
I would actually train with the heaviest gloves you can get hold of, we use 16oz boxing gloves plus weights, this means when you have to strike bareknuckled your hands with be faster than if you'd trained without gloves. You will focus better with heavier hands plus you don't have to worry about not hitting properly. What you train there will cerainly carry over when you don't have gloves on. If you don't intend to get involved in any disturbances, it's simply not worth ruining your hands on the off chance you may need 'toughened' knuckles.

[Drac]

tez raises an interesting point. i think i'll just invest in a good pair of sap gloves.

jf

Sap gloves are GREAT..The problem arises from the fact that I dont always have mine on as they are a beetch to write with...

[Tez3]

Sap gloves are GREAT..The problem arises from the fact that I dont always have mine on as they are a beetch to write with...

Ain't that the truth!

[Drac]

Sap gloves are GREAT..The problem arises from the fact that I dont always have mine on as they are a beetch to write with...


Ain't that the truth!

I know some officers that will wear those real expensive pat down gloves for the entire shift, even in Summer..I used to wear calf skin gloves until I busted this nasty stinking wino and had to pat him down prior to transport..I dont think he bathed in about 3 months..I wound up throwing them away...

[punisher73]

This is true, however they condition their bodies through falling on mats. What some people like to do as conditioning is more like smashing your head into the pavement to "condition" against being thrown on your head on "the street."

Conditioning should be strengthening muscles, imroving technique, etc. Not damaging joints so they "rebuild stronger", not if you want to use your hands into old age anyways. Some impact is good, too much will do more harm then good in the long run though.

Agreed, proper conditioning will NOT hurt your hands and cause arthritis. Even in the "old schools" that rely heavily on makiwara, they would build up to that over a couple of years of knuckle pushups to strengthen the hand/wrist to be able to punch the makiwara properly. If you are breaking open your knuckles or hitting until they bruise you are NOT using the makiwara properly.

Tez3 wrote:
As has been previously pointed out, 'conditioning' your knuckles will lead to damage that is out of proportion to any SD you may have to do.
I would actually train with the heaviest gloves you can get hold of, we use 16oz boxing gloves plus weights, this means when you have to strike bareknuckled your hands with be faster than if you'd trained without gloves. You will focus better with heavier hands plus you don't have to worry about not hitting properly. What you train there will cerainly carry over when you don't have gloves on. If you don't intend to get involved in any disturbances, it's simply not worth ruining your hands on the off chance you may need 'toughened' knuckles.

Again, PROPER conditioning will do nothing to hurt your hands or damage them long term (I will have to find the medical studies that concluded that there is no higher risk of arthritis from proper makiwara training). It is people who do NOT do it properly or would have developed arthritis anyways in their older years.

Also, punching with a weight is a very old training tool used in okinawan karate as a part of their conditioning program. It was a big part in Goju Ryu's hoju undo (also spelled "hojo"). Punching was done with a ishi-sashi, which would be very similiar to a modern day kettlebell.

[Thesemindz]

Striking with the knuckles is a bit risky for a number of reasons, police will always look at your knuckles when an altercation has taken place, medics will too if you have to have medical treatment and will report damaged knuckles to the police. Another reason I wear gloves lol!
As has been previously pointed out, 'conditioning' your knuckles will lead to damage that is out of proportion to any SD you may have to do.
I would actually train with the heaviest gloves you can get hold of, we use 16oz boxing gloves plus weights, this means when you have to strike bareknuckled your hands with be faster than if you'd trained without gloves. You will focus better with heavier hands plus you don't have to worry about not hitting properly. What you train there will cerainly carry over when you don't have gloves on. If you don't intend to get involved in any disturbances, it's simply not worth ruining your hands on the off chance you may need 'toughened' knuckles.

I agree that using knuckle strikes has some inherent risk. Besides what you mentioned about the obvious evidence that you've been in an altercation, if you split your knuckles and get bacteria in the wound, when you open your hand that bacteria will be drawn deeper into the muscle tissue around the knuckles, increasing the likelihood of infection. All that aside, I consider them as much a part of my arsenal as handswords and palm strikes.

I think we will simply have to agree to disagree on the second part. I think training with gloves when I don't expect to wear them in a fight is counterproductive. You've said that they allow you to "train wiser" and that "you don't have to worry about hitting properly." That is exactly why I don't wear them. I don't feel that not worrying about hitting properly is training wisely. It's a matter of perspective I suppose.

I don't have any problem with other people using wraps and gloves, I just don't feel they are appropriate for my training. In drills where I wear them to protect my partner I feel they are appropriate, but I feel the best way to protect myself is to improve my form. I was taught to practice all my material FASP not FAST. Form, Accuracy, Speed, then Power. If I'm hurting my wrists, then I've skipped ahead and need to back it down. But that's just my position.


-Rob

[Andrew Green]

As long as by Makiwara you mean the bendy board wrapped in padding, and not a solid block that you put up against a solid wall like the big name martial arts suppliers make ;)

Punching with a weight would be a bad idea, unless you are hitting something though. At the end of the punch that momentum will want to go forward and put a lot of strain on your joints.

[Tez3]

I agree that using knuckle strikes has some inherent risk. Besides what you mentioned about the obvious evidence that you've been in an altercation, if you split your knuckles and get bacteria in the wound, when you open your hand that bacteria will be drawn deeper into the muscle tissue around the knuckles, increasing the likelihood of infection. All that aside, I consider them as much a part of my arsenal as handswords and palm strikes.

I think we will simply have to agree to disagree on the second part. I think training with gloves when I don't expect to wear them in a fight is counterproductive. You've said that they allow you to "train wiser" and that "you don't have to worry about hitting properly." That is exactly why I don't wear them. I don't feel that not worrying about hitting properly is training wisely. It's a matter of perspective I suppose.

I don't have any problem with other people using wraps and gloves, I just don't feel they are appropriate for my training. In drills where I wear them to protect my partner I feel they are appropriate, but I feel the best way to protect myself is to improve my form. I was taught to practice all my material FASP not FAST. Form, Accuracy, Speed, then Power. If I'm hurting my wrists, then I've skipped ahead and need to back it down. But that's just my position.


-Rob


I think you have misunderstood most of what I'm saying but never mind as long as your happy with your training thats fine.

[Tez3]

Agreed, proper conditioning will NOT hurt your hands and cause arthritis. Even in the "old schools" that rely heavily on makiwara, they would build up to that over a couple of years of knuckle pushups to strengthen the hand/wrist to be able to punch the makiwara properly. If you are breaking open your knuckles or hitting until they bruise you are NOT using the makiwara properly.

Tez3 wrote:

Again, PROPER conditioning will do nothing to hurt your hands or damage them long term (I will have to find the medical studies that concluded that there is no higher risk of arthritis from proper makiwara training). It is people who do NOT do it properly or would have developed arthritis anyways in their older years.

Also, punching with a weight is a very old training tool used in okinawan karate as a part of their conditioning program. It was a big part in Goju Ryu's hoju undo (also spelled "hojo"). Punching was done with a ishi-sashi, which would be very similiar to a modern day kettlebell.


If you note I put condintioning in inverted comas because I believe it has to be done properly not the nonsense of just bashing the knuckles hands whatever to kil the nerves so you don't feel pain.

[astrobiologist]

Grapplers begin their conditioning by falling/rolling on soft mats. After some time they may start practising on harder surfaces once in a while. Once conditioned, they can roll on sand, or dirt, or even concrete no problem. The same goes for conditioning the body's weapons. I've been striking targets and bags for some time. Now I'm striking the makiwara with my hands (knuckles, palm, finger tips) and the forearm conditioners (in, out, and top of forearm). I also have a canvas bag full of metal shot that I grab and twist at. There is definitely a need for moderation and good technique, but I am all for conditioning the body in this manner.

[jks9199]

I know some officers that will wear those real expensive pat down gloves for the entire shift, even in Summer..I used to wear calf skin gloves until I busted this nasty stinking wino and had to pat him down prior to transport..I dont think he bathed in about 3 months..I wound up throwing them away...
When I was in patrol, I could count on going through at least a pair of gloves a year... I learned quick to go cheaper. :D

Like I said, there are ways to condition your hands that don't leave you a cripple down the road. Things like punching a speed bag full of rice, or just lots of pad training. Other ways involve herbal rubs and the like...

[mook jong man]

I have never hurt my wrists while punching in the Wing Chun method apart from very early on when I first started learning . I strike the heavy bag and canvas wall bag with an uncovered vertical fist , palm strike and edge of hand forearm strike

I have hurt my knuckles before by punching on someones skull , but these days I would tend to use palm strikes to the head , and punches to the body , less chance of getting knuckles infected from some ones teeth .

[Uchinanchu]

Good point. I know from experience that hand conditioning is long and tedious, but was a very important part of my beginning years. My art of GoJu (hard/soft) would imply that there is a progression over many years. Because of time restraints or boredom some never attain the latter. Once the softer aspects of the art are realized, or in other words, you are old J , you can still enjoy you art, with a renewed out look. Hard to soft, young to old. At this point it is not how hard we hit, but ever more important, where we hit. This should not be a problem because of the many years of proper structure training.
:asian:
Very well said. Many (not all) martial artists today tend to overlook the obvious, when it comes to such training and it's benefits. Even here, in Okinawa, when another fellow karateka meets me for the first time, their initial reaction is to look at my hands and see how callised they are, as if to say, "Well, if you don't have callises, you obviously do not train hard enough". What a ridiculus and outdated notion!
My own sensei emphasizes the makiwara, but the objective is to train and condition the entire punching motion. Learning to strike properly against a resistive but slightly giving target helps to maintain not only alignment, but helps you learn (in the beginning stages) to maintain proper balance, while progressively delivering more and more powerful strikes to the target.
Train smarter, not harder (of course there is a balance of the two), when your hands start to hurt, stop. If you injure yourself, you have to stop makiwara training until you properly heal. If you are always going too hard, and bloodying yourself up, that does not benefit you at all.

My own sensei's hands do not look callised at all, but he can snap a makiwara in half! He used to do it quite often, but got so tired of replacing them, that now he keeps a bag behind one, so it won't break (so easily).

[Todd]

I agree with Uchinanchu. The purpose of the training, IIUC, is to train proper posture and movement throughout the entire punch. That starts with correct stance, and includes things such as proper use of the hips, keeping the shoulder down, elbow close to the body, wrist straight, and fist tight. The feedback you get from the makiwara will tell you whether you are punching effectively.