It Must Work...My Teacher Said It Would!

[MJS]

Reading threads on this forum as well as others, I often find comments similar to the title of this thread. People are spending time and money, they're dedicating themselves to an art and to a teacher, to learn what they hope, is an effective martial art. So of course, its only natural for these people to defend it, tooth and nail, if someone from outside their art, says anything negative.

Now, of course, there's nothing wrong with defending your art, however, I'm amazed at how blind some can be, to not understand the concept that everyone is different, and just because 10 people can make tech. A work, does not mean that the 11th person will be able to.

Wouldn't it be much better to test out the theory for yourself to see if it works for you, instead of assuming that it will? I find it interesting that I always hear people talk about the success of others, but never themselves.

So, why is it that people get fooled into thinking that what works for one, will work for all?

[bluekey88]

Wouldn't it be much better to test out the theory for yourself to see if it works for you, instead of assuming that it will? I find it interesting that I always hear people talk about the success of others, but never themselves.

So, why is it that people get fooled into thinking that what works for one, will work for all?

This is a very good point. I think we are all naturally egocentric. Most, while capable of differentiating between self and other...tend to think about things from our own perspective and not put as much effort at getting outside that perspective. SO, if my expereince says a particualr technique works...then it must work for all. It generally takes some sort of revelatory experience to get beyond that.

Conversely, there is also the idea that some technqiues work for most...and an individual cannot do said technqiue because they are not doing it correctly. This leads to the idea that x art sucks because I can't do it.

This is best described in an Aikido story I know. A person is talking with on eof the high level teachers in Aikido (I do not remember who). This person said to this sensei that Aikido did not work. When aksed why he thought that, the person wen ton to say that it didn;t work becuase he'd tried to make it work and failed. The Sensei smiled and said in effect "YOUR Aikido doesn't work...mine works just fine."

Two sides of the same coin as it were.

Peace,
Erik

[stickarts]

"Social proof" is used by many and not just in martial arts. When confused about something it can be easy to see others doing something and reason if lots of others are doing it then it must be right. If I have seen a technique work enough times by myself and others, that does give me reason to believe that there is validity to the technique, but that does not mean that it will work the exact same way for everyone. Different things work for different people at different times.

[Flying Crane]

well on the other hand, the statement isn't automatically wrong either. My teacher has had the opportunity to use it for real, he said it works, I haven't had the need to use it yet to defend myself and I am still learning how to use it effectively, so in the meantime I have little choice but to trust my teacher's experience and instruction. I do not have nearly the same level of street experience that my teacher has. He spent time in the army during Vietnam, followed by a career in law enforcement which included undercover work. He has had tremendous opportunity to use his stuff for real. I have not. Why would I doubt him, just because I lack the experience?

We do not get the luxury of running out into the street and testing all of our techinques for full effectiveness on real people. That's a good way to land ourselves in prison. So we train in a simulated environment in the dojo, and we try to be as realistic as possible. But we can never truly duplicate real self defense in the dojo. So to some degree, we have little other choice but to trust our teachers.

It's certainly possible that certain techs that my teacher can use very effectively, I will never be able to use as well, or even at all. But he cannot be blamed for teaching me what works well for him. That just makes sense. Of course a teacher is going to attempt to pass on to his students the stuff that he finds really useful. But it's also true that the student needs to develop the skill to use the techs himself, or else recognize that certain things just don't work so well for him, or at least he hasn't yet developed the skill to use it. But in the meantime, "it must work, my teacher said it would" isn't automatically a sign of foolish blind devotion.

[Nolerama]

On one side, if I were in a fight, I'd rather be up against someone who fought with belief in his teacher at the forefront, than actual athleticism or skill.

A gym buddy reminded me the other day (after complaining about an apparent training plateau in my boxing/getting hit a lot) that you have to adapt to all styles for your own skills to be effective, and that kind of thinking should always be available.

This thread's main topic portrays someone who's unwilling to open up their minds; and the saddest part about it is the look on that person's face when he realizes that his untested, untried, tech just doesn't work for some reason.

Panic sets in. Initiative and ferocity are lost. So sad. I think instructors should train what's practical, and go over which techs are of a higher percentage than others, etc. But most importantly, instructors should let the student prove to himself that a particular tech is functional by sparring or progressive resistance.

[Koshou911]

I have no doubt that when people say this that they speak the truth and that EVERY technique does work but some of the time. The problem is that not everyone is the same which includes executor of the technique and the receiver. This is why my senseis always talk about having a toolbox of techniques that is ready to deal with every situation.

My senseis have often shown me modified versions of a technique (what they call the fat guy method LOL) that is easier for me to execute. On the other hand when I am the receiver he has shown other students in the class variations of "gooseneck" and Sankyo locks in order to make me tap since I have flexible wrists (due to a year of being twisted like a pretzel :lol2:


Everything does work, just not all the time

[hkfuie]

When I hear this, I assume the speaker is beginner/intermediate. It's like a developmental phase in a martial artist. IMO people go through these phases where they hold these beliefs. Then they train some more, learn some more and don't say that anymore.

[jarrod]

this sentiment is one of the reasons i'm always advocating sport fighting as a component of self-defense training. combat sports do not contain all of teh deadlies, but it will leave you no question of what works & what doesn't.

jf

[seasoned]

Reading threads on this forum as well as others, I often find comments similar to the title of this thread. People are spending time and money, they're dedicating themselves to an art and to a teacher, to learn what they hope, is an effective martial art. So of course, its only natural for these people to defend it, tooth and nail, if someone from outside their art, says anything negative.

Now, of course, there's nothing wrong with defending your art, however, I'm amazed at how blind some can be, to not understand the concept that everyone is different, and just because 10 people can make tech. A work, does not mean that the 11th person will be able to.

Wouldn't it be much better to test out the theory for yourself to see if it works for you, instead of assuming that it will? I find it interesting that I always hear people talk about the success of others, but never themselves.

So, why is it that people get fooled into thinking that what works for one, will work for all?

It probably comes with, age and experience. If we are talking strikes as well as grappling, then there is always a flow. The beginner will try a technique and get mentally stuck on it. If it doesn’t work, they will stay with it, trying to make it work, at the expense of losing. Where as, the more experienced person will flow with a variety of techniques. On the same hand, in discussions where 2 or more people are talking and sharing, and claming that their input is more valuable then someone else’s, this is also a lack of experience, and also a mental sticking point. On my DoJo wall was a saying that was there for many years, and it went like this. “ He who knows does not speak, he who speaks does not know“. The saying has to do with talking out of turn or bragging. All arts have value, just like all fire arms have value. My instructor always said that the best technique is the one that hits you. You can have the best art, the fastest hands, the highest kicks, and the best take downs, but if you get hit by an untrained brawler, with a round house punch from left field, your going down. Never let ego do your talking.

[SFC JeffJ]

My opinion is this: You learn a bunch of techniques so you can find what works for you. You still gotta practice the others though `cause when you teach you want your students to have the same breadth of knowledge to explore.

[terryl965]

My opinion is this: You learn a bunch of techniques so you can find what works for you. You still gotta practice the others though `cause when you teach you want your students to have the same breadth of knowledge to explore.

I agree Jeff

[KELLYG]

I have been shown lots of self defense techniques. Some techniques have been modified by my self or with Masters input to be more effective for my body type size and frame.

I practice all of them but have some basics that I would use in the real world. Some are put on the back shelf for what ever reason. Knowledge of the lesser effective techniques are necessary to understand in case they are used against you. The more you learn, the more that you can shift thru to make your own core defenses and obtain a general knowledge of body mechanics and such.

The idea that every technique that is taught to you will work for you everytime is silly and will get you hurt or killed.

[Brian R. VanCise]

There are no absolutes and nothing can work all the time. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif So we must train and train some more and perfect what we do. Blind faith in an individual should not be part of the equation and instead we must train and figure some of it out for ourselves. That being said having someone qualified to guide you along is priceless. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[wushuguy]

I think each martial art has a variety of techniques, however each individual person is different and will fight differently. So it's only when we practice and use what works for our body type and personal preference that we can make certain techniques work.
It's always good to take what works well for you but still be aware of other techniques in the art. As we gain experience, those techniques that we previously didn't use might become our favorite techniques later.

lol, Jut thinking the most common "technique" i've seen is just swinging arms wildly in the opponent's general direction... hoping to get a lucky shot.

[geezer]

There are no absolutes and nothing can work all the time. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif So we must train and train some more and perfect what we do. Blind faith in an individual should not be part of the equation and instead we must train and figure some of it out for ourselves. That being said having someone qualified to guide you along is priceless. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

That remark about "blind faith" really gets to the core of the matter. I don't know about you guys, but I've seen a lot of cool looking techniques taught by really well respected masters that would not work for most of us.

These masters are people of great skill with imposing personalities, demonstrating on compliant students of vastly inferior ability. It's not unlike me messing around with my ten-year-old son. Except my ten-year-old will tell me if he thinks I'm wrong!!! So, if you can't perform a technique effectively and reliably against a non-compliant opponent of equal or greater skill, size and power, either you need more practice, or, just maybe, it's not such a great technique.

[savagek]

Hello all,

No bad students only bad teachers

[Flying Crane]

Hello all,

No bad students only bad teachers

oh, I wouldn't agree with that.

[Josh Oakley]

I've had three separate instructors who never met tell me there's no such thing is a bad technique, only bad application. Sometimes is that ugly kick is the one that saves your life. The more I learn, the more true that seems.

[jks9199]

"It must work... my teacher said so."

If you've got a solid system, and a good teacher whom you trust... then if the teacher says a technique will work, and it doesn't, the error must lie on your end.

Did you do what your teacher did -- or something "close enough?" When something hasn't worked, I've stopped, and gone so far as to literally measure the length of my step. If I didn't follow directions exactly -- then there's no wonder the results weren't what I was told to expect. Lots of students have a tendency to do what they think they saw, or what they think the teacher meant -- NOT what the teacher said or did.

Did you understand the situation or application? If you're doing the right thing, at the wrong time... it's not going to work the right way. Again, this is a common failure point for students.-- especially slightly advanced beginners. They find something that worked once, and keep trying to use it for everything. Not surprisingly, it doesn't work if the application is wrong.

Did you understand the principle, and not the rote movements? Sometimes, a teacher demonstrates something in several different ways because the underlying PRINCIPLE is what's important, not the rote movement. But a lot of students don't really understand the principle, and fall back on improper selection of techniques then don't understand why they don't work.

But there's another point that's worth considering... You can't blindly accept whatever someone says! Remember, everything I said prior to this started with 3 assumptions: a good system, good teachers, and faithful students. The assumption at that point was the failure was in the student. Take one of the first two criteria out of the equation... and maybe it didn't work for you because it didn't really work for your teacher! Lots of defenses against weapons are solidly embedded in fantasy land. So are lots of the "fighting techniques" that some teachers rely upon. They'll work -- if the intended victim doesn't have the temerity to actually punch the teacher or resist the lock. Think no-touch knockout land... only not so obvious. Lots of us (and, yes, I've been guilty of it myself!) convince ourselves that what works in the comfy confines of the training hall, with no real pressure will work the same way in "the real deal."

[akash]

the title of this thread. People are spending time and money, they're dedicating themselves to an art and to a teacher, to learn what they hope, is an effective martial art. So of course, its only natural for these people to defend it, tooth and nail, if someone from outside their art, says anything negative.

Now, of course, there's nothing wrong with defending your art, however, I'm amazed at how blind some can be, to not understand the concept that everyone is different, and just because 10 people can make tech. A work, does not mean

[MJS]

Sorry for not getting back to this thread sooner. Been a bit busy, but I will say that there're some fantastic replies here! :)

Now, yes, my teachers, other teachers out there...they all are teaching things that are effective. Sure, some of it could be that a student just doesn't understand a particular tech., so that would be why they'd feel that its not effective. Other times the tech. is understood, but there may be something else that they'd feel more confortable executing...you know, those 'sure shot, bread and butter' techniques, that we tend to fall back on.

And yes, for the ones who've tested their techs. in real life...sure, unless we run out, start a fight and test that way, we have to rely on testing in the dojo, with as much realism as possible.

Just like we can benefit from many of the other arts out there, we benefit from the various techs. But, I still maintain that we need to find what works for US, seeing that WE would be the one using the technique, not our teacher. We are all built differently, so what may work well for them, due to size and strength differences, does not always mean we're going to have the same ease.

My point of the thread here, was not to discredit a technique. I mean, I teach techniques to people that I'm not fond of, yet I teach them because the person learning may find that tech. to be his bread and butter move. My point of the thread was to figure out why someone would automatically assume that everything is going to work with the same ease for everyone out there.

[Himura Kenshin]

The human body hasn't changed in the past 10,000 years. A technique that is simple in nature like a hip throw or the rear naked choke should work for everyone because all human bodies have the same basic weaknesses.

I do believe a technique might not be able to be used the exact same way another person used, but if it is based on a principle that can be used in other ways it should work for anyone.

[JBrainard]

So, why is it that people get fooled into thinking that what works for one, will work for all?

Because thier instructors are giving them false information.
My teacher has always told us that what works for him may not work for us, and visa versa. Once you reach a certain rank (1st Dan, lets say), and you've learned all of the "tools of the trade," you have to figure out what works for you and what doesn't.

[Flying Crane]

Because thier instructors are giving them false information.
My teacher has always told us that what works for him may not work for us, and visa versa. Once you reach a certain rank (1st Dan, lets say), and you've learned all of the "tools of the trade," you have to figure out what works for you and what doesn't.

yes, but during the learning process you sort of need to go on faith that your teacher is teaching you things that are sound and will work. Of course you need to gain mastery for yourself, that's not disputed. But until you reach some level of mastery wherein you can use the material, you sort of need to take his word for it.

After all, do you argue with your teacher every time he teaches you something new? of course not. You work on it and strive to develop skill with what he has shown you. It may be some time before you are really ready to decide that something DOESN'T work for you. In the mean time, you recognize the potential in the material and you work on it.

It works for sifu/sensei, so it has potential and it can probably work for me as well. Maybe some people are too quick to toss something out and decide it doesn't work.

Some things take more time to develop, but they have a huge payoff down the road if you stick with it.

Other things have a quick and useful payoff because they are easy to use, but they may not have as great a payoff in the long run.

Sometimes it's not a bad idea to stick with the guidance of our seniors and trust their wisdom.

[IcemanSK]

I certainly agree that some instructor/student relationships are based on blind faith...and blind faith is not helpful. I've found another issue that can be a problem is that the instructor leaves out a detail. Intentionally or unintentionally. This is especially true, in my experience, with joint locks. While an instructor may make it look easy, if the details are not explained, the student may not be able to make it "work." Then, while demonstrating this after class with a buddy, it doesn't work.

This may lead to the student's awe of the instructor, frustration of the student, or both.

If the leaving out details is intentional on the instructor's part to build up his/her mystique, it's cruel. If it's unitentional, that can be remedied.

[mozzandherb]

I think that there is a great tendency in martial arts to copy what others are doing, I mean that's basically how we learn what we learn. Other people show us techniques and especially if you're a beginner and don't know much about martial arts it's easy to copy others and not realize that what you're doing will not necessarily help you.
In the beginning its easy to get caught up in all the different movements and believe that when a senior member of a club does a technique then it must be effective because a beginner usually looks up to a senior member and believes that they are always correct even when they aren't. So it takes time for an individual to learn that what works for one will not work for all, it takes time and practice.

[Himura Kenshin]

When it comes to a technique not working for everyone, I really think this is due to individual prefrence not the inviduals ability to perform the technique.

For example, High kicks to the head are techniques that don't work for me. It is difficult for me to kick higher than chest level, but if I practiced enough I could eventually do it no problem. Since I don't like kicking in that way, I don't train that way. Therefore those techniques "don't work" for me.

If a technique seems easy to do, that technique will likely work for you. It is the ones you don't like doing that won't work. It really all depends one where you put emphasis into your training IMO.

[mozzandherb]

When it comes to a technique not working for everyone, I really think this is due to individual prefrence not the inviduals ability to perform the technique.

For example, High kicks to the head are techniques that don't work for me. It is difficult for me to kick higher than chest level, but if I practiced enough I could eventually do it no problem. Since I don't like kicking in that way, I don't train that way. Therefore those techniques "don't work" for me.

If a technique seems easy to do, that technique will likely work for you. It is the ones you don't like doing that won't work. It really all depends one where you put emphasis into your training IMO.
If you are training regularly then you will most likely be practicing all types of kicks, high and low, so to pick and choose is sometimes hard especially when you are a beginner. When a beginner is told to do something they tend to listen even more than senior students, so if their instructor asks them to perform a roundhouse to the head, then chances are they will try to do it. Now to pick and choose what you are good at, well that takes time because in the beginning you dont really know what you are good at, so I would stress to try and be good at everything

[Himura Kenshin]

If you are training regularly then you will most likely be practicing all types of kicks, high and low, so to pick and choose is sometimes hard especially when you are a beginner. When a beginner is told to do something they tend to listen even more than senior students, so if their instructor asks them to perform a roundhouse to the head, then chances are they will try to do it. Now to pick and choose what you are good at, well that takes time because in the beginning you dont really know what you are good at, so I would stress to try and be good at everything

I agree somewhat with you, but ultimately people will use what they think is effective, and what is effective is based on how easy that person views the technique to be.
When I studied karate, I used to practice high kicks to the head, but I didn't like doing them. I figured, if i want to kick someone i wouldn't kick higher than my own chest level because anything higher is uncomfortable.

My brother on the other hand loves high kicks so he does them all the time. He and I have different fighting philosophies so I changed to an art that suited my body structure more. I could have trained the way he did and been able to knock out people with a boot to the skull. I could have conditioned myself to fight the same way, I just didn't want to. Instead i went with something that alows me to move more naturally.

[MJS]

Because thier instructors are giving them false information.
My teacher has always told us that what works for him may not work for us, and visa versa. Once you reach a certain rank (1st Dan, lets say), and you've learned all of the "tools of the trade," you have to figure out what works for you and what doesn't.

Thats an interesting point. My Kenpo teacher is a bit shorter and has a more slender build than I. However, that shouldn't fool someone, because the guy hits...hard! :)

Anyways...there has been more than one time, when going thru techniques, that, due to size differences, he may do something different. Not changing the entire tech. per se, but a small change, due to physical differences. Yet that same tech. has worked for me, without change, due to my build.

Is there anything wrong with the tech? No. But, this shows that it will need to be adapted to the person doing it.