WC hook

[Eru Ilúvatar]

To my knowledge most WC people have a hook/hook like punch in the Biu tze form. I would like to ask those people how do they apply the hook. I would be greateful for any application descriptons/situations in Chi sao that you found it useful. Also, in your opinion, what are some situations in which the hook punch would be the most WC response to the situation?

Thanks in advance!

[mook jong man]

Well there is the obvious one where you seize their arm and pivot , dragging them into the hook punch . Also if they try to attack you with a circular punch to the head , you can defend your self with one arm by doing a Bong Sau on the inside of their arm and changing to a hook punch thus deflecting and striking through at the same time .

I think we also used to do one against a straight punch where you Pak Sau , step to the side and hook punch them in the lower side of the body , then that hand comes up grabs their arm and latches them into a Wing Chun side kick .

[mook jong man]

Oh I forgot in Chi Sau when you have some one bullishly pressing forward on you , you can pivot them off to the side and just when they are falling to the side you can pivot back into them with your hook punch .

So on one side you will hook punching from your Fook Sau and if you pivot them the other way you will be hook punching from a reverse Tan Sau or Bong Sau position .

In Chi Sau you can also use the Chum Kiu hook punch , instead of dropping your Fook Sau down , trapping both their hands and bringing up your Tan Sau to punch over the top. Leave the bottom hand down and do a hook punch under the ribs or jaw .

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thanks Mook! I'll try the one with the guy pushing at you as soon as I can. I would like to ask you to explain the obvious one a bit better :) Do you seize his right punch with your right hand and while pivoting to the right you hook him with the left(thats what you probably ment, huh?), or do you seize his right punch with your left hand and I guess you could guide it with a Lan motion underneath your right armpit and hook him with the left? The last one sounds a bit weird when I think about it though... Would have to try it out to see if it would work...

But still the question remains; why not just use a straight punch? Could anyone tell me a situation where a straight punch wouldn't actualy be the shortest distance between 2 point, the most economical way to deal with the situation etc. If I understand your techniques ok, it seems you could do all of them with a straight punch.

And another thing. Do you think the hook is stronger? I don't realy know plus I was thought little about it and used it in WC even less... But it seems it's a longer motion thus it achieves bigger acceleration and thus delivers a bigger force. You also do it with a turn so thats up to the speed/acceleration. But on the other hand you can't use structure in it as you can in a straight punch with the elbow down.

Please share thoughts.

[geezer]

...in your opinion, what are some situations in which the hook punch would be the most WC response to the situation?

Thanks in advance!

In our system, the hook punch is not the preferred response (as it might be in boxing, for example). Instead, it is reserved for particular situations where straight, centerline techniques will not work, or where the hook actually becomes the most efficient technique for the situation. For example if an opponent crouches and raises their guard, boxing-style to cover up with their forearms, your centerline path is closed off. Instead you can grab their arms and turn, sweeping their guard aside as you deliver the hook to their ear or jaw. Mook's first two examples, the arm-grapple to hook, and second, countering a high hook with an inside-gate bong-sau which is then converted to a countering hook are also both standard applications in the WT I learned. The simplest application of all is when your opponent uses pak sau or otherwise knocks your arm downward and aside with excessive, overcommited force. As your arm is already knocked off center, you just follow the energy around and upward, in an arc back onto center with a hook punch to the head, borrowing your opponent's force and hitting him as you recover your position.


Actually, there are quite a few ways to use hooks in WT, but again, they typically come up when centerline is closed off or when your arm or body is not in the usual center to center orientation. It is because their use is more specialized or situational, that hooks are typically trained later, usually along with Biu Tze applications.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Would you say it would be better to train hooks for situations like that or a sidestep straight punch? One thing is that if the boxer closes his centerline with his hands and you go round he could decide to go forward anytime. He could probably decide to screw you badly and go into a covering pak and straight punch while stepping forward when you do a hook. Thats the only problem I have with hooks realy. Oh ok I read you say you grab his arm and do a hook so that evens the odds a bit but do you see what I'm saying? Why not just sidestep and lap punch, pak punch, whatever punch or just punch straight? :)

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Instead you can grab their arms and turn, sweeping their guard aside as you deliver the hook to their ear or jaw.

P.S. I just saw that you say you sweap the boxers guard aside. How were you thought to do that? Do you use both hands? And I'm confused about what kind of guard are we talking now; the one where the guy covers up with his fists somwhere between his temples and forehead and forearms vertical? If you have time can you please explain that technique?

[geezer]

P.S. I just saw that you say you sweap the boxers guard aside. How were you thought to do that? Do you use both hands? And I'm confused about what kind of guard are we talking now; the one where the guy covers up with his fists somwhere between his temples and forehead and forearms vertical? If you have time can you please explain that technique?

Yes, that's it exactly. When the guy covers like that and evades to the side, slipping your punch, you may convert the punch into a grapple, latching onto his forearm and turn or pivot. With the power of your stance-turning, you sweep his guard downward and across as your body simultaneously moves off-line to the opposite side while delivering the hook. You've got to use the grapple, turn and hook as one motion (all on one-beat) if you don't want the guy to roll into a body shot or uppercut. The grab has to be a sharp, snappy, jerk that unbalances your opponent as well as creating an opening.

BTW in your previous post you asked if it would be better to side-step and use a straight punch. Now I can't speak for other WT guys who have better technique. But my personal answer is, yes, I always prefer the more the more basic approach. I believe Leung Ting once said something to the effect that the advanced techniques are there for beating other Wing Tsun/Chun practitioners. For real fights (presumably against other styles of fighting) keep it simple!

[mook jong man]

Thanks Mook! I'll try the one with the guy pushing at you as soon as I can. I would like to ask you to explain the obvious one a bit better :) Do you seize his right punch with your right hand and while pivoting to the right you hook him with the left(thats what you probably ment, huh?), or do you seize his right punch with your left hand and I guess you could guide it with a Lan motion underneath your right armpit and hook him with the left? The last one sounds a bit weird when I think about it though... Would have to try it out to see if it would work...

But still the question remains; why not just use a straight punch? Could anyone tell me a situation where a straight punch wouldn't actualy be the shortest distance between 2 point, the most economical way to deal with the situation etc. If I understand your techniques ok, it seems you could do all of them with a straight punch.

And another thing. Do you think the hook is stronger? I don't realy know plus I was thought little about it and used it in WC even less... But it seems it's a longer motion thus it achieves bigger acceleration and thus delivers a bigger force. You also do it with a turn so thats up to the speed/acceleration. But on the other hand you can't use structure in it as you can in a straight punch with the elbow down.

Please share thoughts.

About the first one I said , its going back a long way when I got taught that one and I seriously cant remember if it was off a punch or when you can't break through some ones guard .

What i do remember though is that you are on their blind side and you sieze their single arm with both your arms and then you do a sharp pivot which pulls them into your hook punch to the jaw or throat or let their throat run into your forearm.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Yes, that's it exactly. When the guy covers like that and evades to the side, slipping your punch, you may convert the punch into a grapple, latching onto his forearm and turn or pivot. With the power of your stance-turning, you sweep his guard downward and across as your body simultaneously moves off-line to the opposite side while delivering the hook. You've got to use the grapple, turn and hook as one motion (all on one-beat) if you don't want the guy to roll into a body shot or uppercut. The grab has to be a sharp, snappy, jerk that unbalances your opponent as well as creating an opening.


I'm not sure about that one. Would have to try it out. That type of guard is pretty tight tho. I don't know you can just pull it of him. And the leverage is on his side becouse he has a shorter handle. But a jerky snappy motion would probably enough to get an opening.


BTW in your previous post you asked if it would be better to side-step and use a straight punch. Now I can't speak for other WT guys who have better technique. But my personal answer is, yes, I always prefer the more the more basic approach.

Well thats how I see things too basicly.


I believe Leung Ting once said something to the effect that the advanced techniques are there for beating other Wing Tsun/Chun practitioners. For real fights (presumably against other styles of fighting) keep it simple!

Well the thing is that I understand other "advanced" techniques. There is a situation where the elbow is the most suitible response to the situation. Same with huen bo, the ducking motion and the po pai motions from the Biu Tze. But the thing is, I can't see that situation for the hook. The funny thing is that my instructor was thought a certein way in that part of the Biu tze that my instructor later put the hook in. In the original (from my sigung) version there was no hooks but a diffrent response becouse my sigung didn't believe WC has a hook. And I'm starting to lean towards that way of thinking more and more. I also like the thing my sigung did(my instructor showed me both; allthough he considered the sigungs version inferior). The thing is, if there is a hook in WC, it's the only strike(I see right now) in WC that doesnt use your structure(ok, one can say that the faak sao strike doesn't use the full body structure either). The mechanics of the hook is such that from the hit point and to the heel there is no linked structure. It hits your shoulder or in the best case your hip from where the hook usualy draws its power. Now if the hook is there just to put tools in the box(so to speak) then it's aslo the only motion in WC I see that is not there to be the best solution to a specific situation. I would love to discus this and ofcourse I may be missing something. I'm not saying that I wouldn't use it in a street fight or if the opportunity arose but my question is: is the hook true to the WC core principals?

[geezer]

I'm not sure about that one. Would have to try it out. That type of guard is pretty tight tho. I don't know you can just pull it of him. And the leverage is on his side becouse he has a shorter handle. But a jerky snappy motion would probably enough to get an opening.

Right, and don't forget that you are adding the power of your stance-pivot. Remember, even if your opponent is too solid to be moved, you yield and "move yourself" with the technique, getting the angle you need. It's like when you pak sau a heavy tree branch. With the force of the pak sau, either the branch moves to one side, or you move to the other. In either case, you are no longer in front of the branch, right? The same principle applies here.


In the original (from my sigung) version there was no hooks but a diffrent response becouse my sigung didn't believe WC has a hook... my question is: is the hook true to the WC core principals?

If you go way back in time, say to the early 19th Century, Wing Chun/Tsun emerged from other Southern Chinese "short bridge" systems that had a great many techniques and forms. The beauty of Wing Chun/Tsun is it's comparative simplicity. Gradually forms and techniques were refined and simplified to the essential elements we have today. In this sense, I feel that the hook punch, as well as a host of other techniques not included in the system today, were doubtless originally part of Wing Chun/Tsun. Whether the hook should remain in the system is ultimately a matter of your personal perspective and how narrow or broad your vision of Wing Chun is.

My outlook is not nearly so broad as the JKD guys, nor so narrow as certain ultra-purists. I guess I take a moderate stance. I like to stay with the traditional art, but adapted for our time. And from my perspective, the hook has a very legitimate role in the style. In some regards it's not unlike a withdrawing fak sau. In other aspects it uses turning energy like the turning pie-jarn, or "hacking elbows" in Chum Kiu form. And when applied in the appropriate situation, the hook is as efficient and direct as any other WC/WT technique. I think it's important to remember that our theory is a means to an end... namely efficacy. To get results. Theory should never be an end in itself!

[Yoshiyahu]

I feel I am WC purist. I believe the Hook and upper cut is natural part of WC.


Recently I be working on Tan sau followed with hook.

An also a hand grab pulling opponent outward while applying the hook at the same time.


I have also in the past utlize the same techniques as mook...


Check this video out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT5fmqSTJP4



Right, and don't forget that you are adding the power of your stance-pivot. Remember, even if your opponent is too solid to be moved, you yield and "move yourself" with the technique, getting the angle you need. It's like when you pak sau a heavy tree branch. With the force of the pak sau, either the branch moves to one side, or you move to the other. In either case, you are no longer in front of the branch, right? The same principle applies here.



If you go way back in time, say to the early 19th Century, Wing Chun/Tsun emerged from other Southern Chinese "short bridge" systems that had a great many techniques and forms. The beauty of Wing Chun/Tsun is it's comparative simplicity. Gradually forms and techniques were refined and simplified to the essential elements we have today. In this sense, I feel that the hook punch, as well as a host of other techniques not included in the system today, were doubtless originally part of Wing Chun/Tsun. Whether the hook should remain in the system is ultimately a matter of your personal perspective and how narrow or broad your vision of Wing Chun is.

My outlook is not nearly so broad as the JKD guys, nor so narrow as certain ultra-purists. I guess I take a moderate stance. I like to stay with the traditional art, but adapted for our time. And from my perspective, the hook has a very legitimate role in the style. In some regards it's not unlike a withdrawing fak sau. In other aspects it uses turning energy like the turning pie-jarn, or "hacking elbows" in Chum Kiu form. And when applied in the appropriate situation, the hook is as efficient and direct as any other WC/WT technique. I think it's important to remember that our theory is a means to an end... namely efficacy. To get results. Theory should never be an end in itself!

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Cool video... What about instead of the hook in that video the guy would do a straight punch? Would it be more/less powerful? What are the pros of the hook and the cons of the punch lol :) Can you find any hypothetical situation where the hook would be more effective in the WC sense than a straight punch?

[geezer]

What are the pros of the hook and the cons of the punch... :) Can you find any hypothetical situation where the hook would be more effective in the WC sense than a straight punch?

Damn...I can't get video on this computer. I'll have to wait till I get home.
Anyway, regarding advantages of a hook over a straight punch, I see three:

1. In the right situation, a hook will go around an obstacle such as a blocking arm, shoulder, etc. that would make a straight shot ineffective.

2. In the right situation, a hook uses whipping force generated by the whole body via the stance-pivot, and makes for a very powerful strike (akin to the force generated in the pie-jarn or hacking elbow strikes in Chum Kiu mentioned before).

3. In the right situation, as for example after grappling your opponent's arm and pulling him across and in front of you (think of the Biu Tze double hand grapple and turn) the hook is the shortest path to strike your opponent. In order to hit him with a straight punch, you would have to withdraw your hand first. And that would be inefficient... ie a poorer choice by WT/WC standards!

But, as you'll note, the hook is only applied in those specific situations where it is the most efficient solution.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thanks Geezer! This is what I was looking for!

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Right, and don't forget that you are adding the power of your stance-pivot. Remember, even if your opponent is too solid to be moved, you yield and "move yourself" with the technique, getting the angle you need. It's like when you pak sau a heavy tree branch. With the force of the pak sau, either the branch moves to one side, or you move to the other. In either case, you are no longer in front of the branch, right? The same principle applies here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eru Ilúvatar http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1108956#post1108956)
In the original (from my sigung) version there was no hooks but a diffrent response becouse my sigung didn't believe WC has a hook... my question is: is the hook true to the WC core principals?

If you go way back in time, say to the early 19th Century, Wing Chun/Tsun emerged from other Southern Chinese "short bridge" systems that had a great many techniques and forms. The beauty of Wing Chun/Tsun is it's comparative simplicity. Gradually forms and techniques were refined and simplified to the essential elements we have today. In this sense, I feel that the hook punch, as well as a host of other techniques not included in the system today, were doubtless originally part of Wing Chun/Tsun. Whether the hook should remain in the system is ultimately a matter of your personal perspective and how narrow or broad your vision of Wing Chun is.

My outlook is not nearly so broad as the JKD guys, nor so narrow as certain ultra-purists. I guess I take a moderate stance. I like to stay with the traditional art, but adapted for our time. And from my perspective, the hook has a very legitimate role in the style. In some regards it's not unlike a withdrawing fak sau. In other aspects it uses turning energy like the turning pie-jarn, or "hacking elbows" in Chum Kiu form. And when applied in the appropriate situation, the hook is as efficient and direct as any other WC/WT technique. I think it's important to remember that our theory is a means to an end... namely efficacy. To get results. Theory should never be an end in itself!

Missed that post :) I agree. Thanks, great post!

[Yoshiyahu]

Thats a good question. I use far more straight punches than hooks. But If I do use a hook or circle strikes Its because the person has a good defense against straight punches. Usually people are trained to block certain types of strikes better than others. But it depends on my posistioning and angle. Also the person defenses. But thats me. I mostly use straight punches. But I believe its beneficial to train many things because you never know what you may need to use. I believe Hooks are apart of WC as shown in Bil Gee and upper cuts as shown in Chum Kiu!

Wing Chun has principals but sometimes you may have to go outside the principals. Like WC doesn't have high kicks. But I think you should also train high kicks. Because this way your WC brothers can practice blocking high kicks. An when you spar you can through other types of attacks outside of just WC. So you will be more well rounded. My Sihing studied Karate before WC. So he has very good high kicks with alot power. But he uses low kicks in a fight. But since he practices the high kicks and strechtes daily if the opportunity present itself comes you may have to use high kicks. To end an confrontation?

But its great though. I think in my small feebel opinion that hook is technique that needs to practice regularly along with the upper cut. So that way you have more weapons in your arsenal. I wouldn't say its more effective or less effective! I think its equal useful technique?



Cool video... What about instead of the hook in that video the guy would do a straight punch? Would it be more/less powerful? What are the pros of the hook and the cons of the punch lol :) Can you find any hypothetical situation where the hook would be more effective in the WC sense than a straight punch?

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thats a good question. I use far more straight punches than hooks. But If I do use a hook or circle strikes Its because the person has a good defense against straight punches. Usually people are trained to block certain types of strikes better than others.

I like that answer!


Hooks are apart of WC as shown in Bil Gee and upper cuts as shown in Chum Kiu!

Yea but the point I wanted to make was that becouse of the Chum Kiu elbow-in you still exploit the whole use of your structure-in the hook you don't. But as Geezer mentioned hook drives its power from a lot of other things so it makes it as much/or even more powerful than the straigh punch.


Wing Chun has principals but sometimes you may have to go outside the principals. Like WC doesn't have high kicks. But I think you should also train high kicks. Because this way your WC brothers can practice blocking high kicks. An when you spar you can through other types of attacks outside of just WC. So you will be more well rounded. My Sihing studied Karate before WC. So he has very good high kicks with alot power. But he uses low kicks in a fight. But since he practices the high kicks and strechtes daily if the opportunity present itself comes you may have to use high kicks. To end an confrontation?

Look, I'm starting to think more and more that we look at the things the same... For clarification read my answer to you on the Wing Chun + Spear thread.


I think its equal useful technique?

Yes! Exactly! In the end all techniques are useful/effective if they land on the target and put you in a stronger position than a moment before, wouldn't you say?

[Yoshiyahu]

I think we are on same mental wave length. As for applications of hook there are numerous. Not mention the fact you can use the hook motion for other things than a punch.


But if you look at the hook your structure is still being used but in different way. In Bil Gee you use the weight of your foe along with your waist power to apply the hook. But when the hook comes your body is behind it. Due to power in the waist and rotation of axis that is hips along with the shoulders torquing so to speak. So once your entire body has turn an your stance shifts or rotatates than your body power is behind the punch...

Not like how a boxer would generate power from a hook but different. The best thing to do is break it down...practice it over and over again. An build it up.

But I love your statements excellent.



Yes! Exactly! In the end all techniques are useful/effective if they land on the target and put you in a stronger position than a moment before, wouldn't you say?


i totally agree!




I like that answer!



Yea but the point I wanted to make was that becouse of the Chum Kiu elbow-in you still exploit the whole use of your structure-in the hook you don't. But as Geezer mentioned hook drives its power from a lot of other things so it makes it as much/or even more powerful than the straigh punch.



Look, I'm starting to think more and more that we look at the things the same... For clarification read my answer to you on the Wing Chun + Spear thread.



Yes! Exactly! In the end all techniques are useful/effective if they land on the target and put you in a stronger position than a moment before, wouldn't you say?

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Could you give me some examples? An application or two would be great!

[Eru Ilúvatar]

This guy does an application of the hook I like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQuut2eBXlI&feature=related. Mook, was this what you ment?


Well there is the obvious one where you seize their arm and pivot , dragging them into the hook punch

I like how this guy appys the art very much. This is his only video I can find unfortunately. Geezer, you being very WT experienced, can you tell me anything about this guy maybe?


Could you give me some examples? An application or two would be great!

I meant applications for the hook motion used for other things than a punch. I would also be grateful for any other WC hook applications.

[geezer]

This guy does an application of the hook I like...

I like how this guy appys the art very much. This is his only video I can find unfortunately. Geezer, you being very WT experienced, can you tell me anything about this guy maybe?

I like the way he applies the art too. I did a bit of checking. I think that's Sifu Kaspar Lund Nielsen, 5th Practioner Grade, EWTO. In physical build and technique execution, he resembles my Si-dai (and instructor) Master Jeff Webb, also 5th Practitioner Grade in WT (NWTO). The video appears to have been shot at Master Keith Kernspecht's EWTO headquarters at Kastle Langenzell (sp?) in Germany.

Another thing. If you watch, he uses the same kind of rotational force (seen in the hook) in many of the other techniques, including elbows and throws. When you look at the way he moves, you can see that the hook is in no way out of context. It fits in quite naturally. Now if if I could just convince that guy to take a vacation out here in Arizona, and maybe show us a few things...

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thanks a lot! I agree about the hook. I would love to train with the guy to :)

[Si-Je]

Well, I don't have alot of training on the WC hook punch. But, I've seen Sifu Guiterrez use what I call a "dai punch". It looks like he's using Dai Sau off the attackers hook punch and then pivoting from a dai sau or bong sau position to hook punch. Neato stuff.

I didn't know there was a hook punch in WC/WT until I started watching his videos.

It kinda looks like his fist is "upsidedown" when he hook punches too. With the thumb pointing down and the knuckles still straight up and down.

Is this how you do WC hook punch? Like an inverted straight punch? Or am I just trippin'? lol!

[Yoshiyahu]

Si-Je check out the video. At the end before the double leg grab you see a grab pull the arm an hook punch.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NW1_Bmbmkg

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I think I finaly get what you mean by Dai sao. I think I have it in Chum Kiu. Is it the technique where you have your elbows pointed out and fingers pointed in and postioned at eye level and the hand is extended at aproximetly 135 degrees?

The hook I was shown in WC is sopposed to be done so the fist is horizontal when striking the face. The fist is sopposed to be lined up with the forarm; so if you strike the plexus are for example the fist would be at about 45 degrees.

[Si-Je]

That sounds like Dai Sau. :)
The elbow is what actually deflects the punch, fingers to the eyes flows nicely to a bui gee finger thrust, or chop to the neck, or head throw.

Check out this lady's WC ya'll. She does alot of hook punching in this video too. Where do I sign up?! lol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-PFgo9olig

[Yoshiyahu]

Did you see the Bil Gee video yet...thats the actual WC hook. Now the lady in your video is actually doing WC and one of Shaolin Animals. I can not really tell. which one yet. I thought she was doing Bagua at first but later on she looked like a dragon fighter. But the hooks she is doing is not WC but other Gung Fu style.


That sounds like Dai Sau. :)
The elbow is what actually deflects the punch, fingers to the eyes flows nicely to a bui gee finger thrust, or chop to the neck, or head throw.

Check out this lady's WC ya'll. She does alot of hook punching in this video too. Where do I sign up?! lol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-PFgo9olig

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Did you see the Bil Gee video yet...thats the actual WC hook. Now the lady in your video is actually doing WC and one of Shaolin Animals. I can not really tell. which one yet. I thought she was doing Bagua at first but later on she looked like a dragon fighter. But the hooks she is doing is not WC but other Gung Fu style.

Acctualy she is Weng Chun. Weng Chun, from what I've seen of it, basicly looks like that. They say this is he original version from which all other WC came of. Check out this for more info:

http://www.weng-chun.com/index_d.htm

Also notice in the galery area that the GM of their lineage was uncle and friend to GM Ip Man :O They also have a very interesting article under the history area about the origin of WC. I recomend reading it to all Chunners!

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Mook, I have another question about the hook for you. I hope you'll see this :) I noticed that when Chu Shong Tin does the hook in the Biu Tze he has his elbow in and his fist bent inwards. Wong Shun Leung does pretty much the same thing. I was shown similarly but I started doing it with the back of the fist lined up with the forarm and elbow a bit more out instead. It just feels stronger/more natural to me. I was wondering; is there any special reason one would do it with a fist/wrist bent? Do you apply it with the bent or straight wrist?

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Acctualy this question is for everybody that does the hook in a above mentioned was, thanks! :)

[Si-Je]

That Weng Chun style is my new fascination! I always wondered what the shaolin style of WC would look like. This seems like it would be what it might be.
I really like the way she uses her whole body when she does wrist rolls, and re-direction.

I've seen the hook in some versions of Bui Gee, but haven't learned the hook punch yet.

Gonna start a new thread on Weng Chun's chi sau. hehehe

[Yoshiyahu]

Yip man lineages say the Wing Chun is Northern Shaolin is different but not really the original. Its basically northern shaolin. Its known as Orthodox Shaolin or Shaolin Wing Chun.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Mook, I have another question about the hook for you. I hope you'll see this :) I noticed that when Chu Shong Tin does the hook in the Biu Tze he has his elbow in and his fist bent inwards. Wong Shun Leung does pretty much the same thing. I was shown similarly but I started doing it with the back of the fist lined up with the forarm and elbow a bit more out instead. It just feels stronger/more natural to me. I was wondering; is there any special reason one would do it with a fist/wrist bent? Do you apply it with the bent or straight wrist?

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Acctualy this question is for everybody that does the hook in a above mentioned was, thanks! :)

Bump

[mook jong man]

Bump

Sorry man I can't answer that for you , I have noticed that as well .
Even my own Sifu who trained under Sigung Tsui , for 40 years did some things in the forms slightly different than Sigung . I never worried about it too much they were very slight but noticeable differences .

I later found out that over the course of the years Sigung's forms went through very slight evolutions . I also understand that Sigung was instrumental in having the height of the Tan Sau changed to the way we do it today , apparently in Yip Man's school they used to do the Tan Sau a lot lower in the SLT form .

But one day Sigung got struck in the chest by a mantis practitioner so he asked Yip Man if they could change the height of the Tan Sau to a more practical solar plexus height. But I digress , back to your original question , It could be the way its done in the form is not exactly like the application , I have noticed this in some things before .

My master did it the way you do it , I take the middle road and compromise halfway between your method and Sigungs method . I think that the angle of the arms will depend on the distance to the target in reality , but still we are only thinking of striking and forgetting that we could also use the forearm to surround the neck as we do a leg sweep .

If you are worried about hurting your wrist when you strike something , practice standing side on to a wall bag and hit it hard and see what is the best wrist and elbow position for you , also practice on a heavy bag from varying distances and experiment with how you have to change the position of your elbow and wrist to have the most solid structure .

This is what I do and have found that after a while you will automatically make micro adjustments depending on the range to get the best tranference of power through your arm and into the target.

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thanks for the reply! Great post. And yes, one of the main problems that bothers me with my instructors method is that I feel I could injure my wrist easily. Especialy if the guy is turning/pivoting when I strike. That could snap the wrist quickly. Systema for example practices a similar method to break an opponents wrist even on a straight punch.

And I didn't think of the hook as a choker before :) Indeed the hook would fit in great as a choker. We did something similar for takedowns just that we looked at it as a faak to lan motion but it's basicly the same thing.

[Yoshiyahu]

What do you mean by choker???


Thanks for the reply! Great post. And yes, one of the main problems that bothers me with my instructors method is that I feel I could injure my wrist easily. Especialy if the guy is turning/pivoting when I strike. That could snap the wrist quickly. Systema for example practices a similar method to break an opponents wrist even on a straight punch.

And I didn't think of the hook as a choker before :) Indeed the hook would fit in great as a choker. We did something similar for takedowns just that we looked at it as a faak to lan motion but it's basicly the same thing.

[mook jong man]

What do you mean by choker???

I'm sorry I should have been a bit clearer , the arm is not choking the neck , although I suppose you could use it for that if you wanted to . I mean to say in a streetfight your not going to have judges there holding up score cards saying I'm sorry what he did there was not proper Wing Chun I give him 5 out of 10 .

The arm is actually thrown into the throat in a ballistic fashion , so that it balances the force on the bottom of his body where you are also smashing the lower half of his calf muscle again in a ballistic fashion with the back of your heel using the sweep motion from Bil Gee .

We used to also do the same thing with an elbow strike instead of the hook , the principal is the same . One force acting on the top of the body and another one on the bottom of the body in unison at high speed will usually result in the attacker being thrown back onto their head with a great deal of force .

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Oh. Than thats exactly what we did. We just looked at it as a SLT motion. Great for takedowns!

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay we have similiar techinque usually the palm was to center of chest below the collar bone and above the sternum white the foot c-step to kick the foundation out from under the opponent.



I'm sorry I should have been a bit clearer , the arm is not choking the neck , although I suppose you could use it for that if you wanted to . I mean to say in a streetfight your not going to have judges there holding up score cards saying I'm sorry what he did there was not proper Wing Chun I give him 5 out of 10 .

The arm is actually thrown into the throat in a ballistic fashion , so that it balances the force on the bottom of his body where you are also smashing the lower half of his calf muscle again in a ballistic fashion with the back of your heel using the sweep motion from Bil Gee .

We used to also do the same thing with an elbow strike instead of the hook , the principal is the same . One force acting on the top of the body and another one on the bottom of the body in unison at high speed will usually result in the attacker being thrown back onto their head with a great deal of force .

[zepedawingchun]

To my knowledge most WC people have a hook/hook like punch in the Biu tze form. I would like to ask those people how do they apply the hook. I would be greateful for any application descriptons/situations in Chi sao that you found it useful. Also, in your opinion, what are some situations in which the hook punch would be the most WC response to the situation?

Thanks in advance!

I think most Wing Chun family lines agree that Biu Tze (or Biu Jee) is what we call the emergency form. It covers hand positions outside the normal lines of Wing Chun thinking. An emergency form meaning when all else fails (hand positions from SNT, CK, and the jong) there's something in this form that may help you in your situation.

So if you are unable to throw straight line punches down the center or central line due to your opponent covering up or overcrowding the line, the hook (which is sort of a circular line punch) can be used to penetrate from the side.

I find it easier to sidestep and then straightline punch coming into the side of my opponent. As someone here already stated, keep it basic.

In reference to the hook punch in Biu Jee, my Sifu also teaches us to do the Phoenix Eye or Ginger Fist to the temple or ribs. I think some of the family lines do those instead of the hook, correct?

[Tensei85]

Yip man lineages say the Wing Chun is Northern Shaolin is different but not really the original. Its basically northern shaolin. Its known as Orthodox Shaolin or Shaolin Wing Chun.

I know this is an old thread but to clear up a few things.

The Chi Sim Weng Chun Pai is not a Northern Shaolin system but it is a Southern Shaolin system as can be seen in nearly all there forms have a southern flare. Even from the opening of the form.

Although I've only seen Fa Kuen, Saam Bai Fut, Sap Yat Kuen, Muk Jong, Long Pole and the Swords.

[geezer]

I think most Wing Chun family lines agree that Biu Tze (or Biu Jee) is what we call the emergency form. It covers hand positions outside the normal lines of Wing Chun thinking...

I think of the word "emergency" to describe a desperate save after you get into "deep doo-doo". In the WT lineage we tend see Biu Tze form more as dealing with having specialized techniques for special situations... such as shat geng sau for longer range, the elbows for close range, the hooks for situations in which the center is obstructed and so forth. In short, it provides techniques to counter the basic techniques... or what one 'Chunner might use to overcome another.

BTW, Zepeda, I checked out your profile and am curious as to what style of WC do you study? ...Also, what style of motorcycle do you favor?

[qwksilver61]

simultaneous sideling palm(outdoor) advance step......wicked hook....it works....inside lower gum to counter kick...wicked hook....ow!

[zepedawingchun]

BTW, Zepeda, I checked out your profile and am curious as to what style of WC do you study? ...Also, what style of motorcycle do you favor?

First : Zepeda - Sifu William Wong - SiGung Moy Yat (5 years)
Currently : Zepeda - Sifu Francis Fong - SiGung Jiu Wan (22 years)

I ride a Yamaha YZF-1000R1 or R1 for short. So I am a sportrider.

[Tensei85]

First : Zepeda - Sifu William Wong - SiGung Moy Yat (5 years)
Currently : Zepeda - Sifu Francis Fong - SiGung Jiu Wan (22 years)

I ride a Yamaha YZF-1000R1 or R1 for short. So I am a sportrider.

Awesome! If I may ask what do you feel are the fundamental differences between the Moy Yat lineage training curriculum as compared to the Jiu Wan lineage? I know Wing Chun is Wing Chun but sometimes certain training devices or perspectives may differ. Just looking for a comparative analysis, thanks.

I'm also coming from the Moy Yat as well as the Ip Ching line.

[zepedawingchun]

Awesome! If I may ask what do you feel are the fundamental differences between the Moy Yat lineage training curriculum as compared to the Jiu Wan lineage? I know Wing Chun is Wing Chun but sometimes certain training devices or perspectives may differ. Just looking for a comparative analysis, thanks.

I'm also coming from the Moy Yat as well as the Ip Ching line.

As you may know, Jui Wan was the only person attested to by Yip Man to having the original Fat San Wing Chun System. They were very close the last 15 - 20 years of Yip Man's life. I'm sure coming from the same line and province had a lot to do about it.

Sifu Fong teaches the forms pretty much in the same order as the Moy Yat System, Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Mook Yan Jong, Biu Jee, Luk Dim Boon Kwun, and Baht Jam Do. And some of the hand positions are a little different. But the Francis Fong system is more aggressive. He is very dynamic and creative, he doesn't limit his or anyones imagination. He believes that no matter how long you've been studying (training), there is always room to improve and better yourself. He sees himself as a beginner, even though he's been teaching/training for about 44 years. And his student are the same.

I think because he pressure tested his WC on the streets of Hong Kong and New York, he knows how to make it work. Sifu Fong also believes in cross-training in other arts, to help you understand how to make your WC work against (or deal with) other arts and not just WC people. His academy was offering (cross-training) Kali/JKD and Muay Thai in the early 80's, long before the big craze to MMA. The way he teaches WC is the way I believe it was meant to be. Check out his website for details and curriculum.

www.francisfongacademy.com (http://www.francisfongacademy.com)